New UK Defence Secretary named

On Brexit I don’t share your optimism. It’s already been sabotaged by May losing her majority, deliberately, and Parliament blocking no deal allied with the EU refusing to renegotiate the bad deal they and May agreed. She knew full well what she was doing.

The pointless NI bill passed the other day was another landmine left behind by Hammond and May.

Important things to prevent a hard brexit which everyone with half a Braincell realises would be catastrophic!

Well said lee1 but I think the little English have got their way and the start of scottish independence

I am not so sure. There are plenty of MPs that are willing to sacrifice their careers to put a stop to a no deal exit.and therefore prevent disaster. I am not sure Boris will be PM for very long.

If the unthinkable does happen then I will be taking my family out of the UK. I am a skilled worker and therefore my skills are needed in many other countries. I am pretty sure I am going to be one of many and the skills drain will be quite dramatic.

Bye then.

Lee, leaving the UK lock, stock and barrel is not so easy in my opinion. Even if you’re skilled, getting visas is still a nightmare, as is renewing them and then residency is a whole level of further complexity. There are also many restrictions on you and financial impacts on your estate at home assuming you don’t sell up immediately. I’ve been in the US for 3 years and intend to do one more year, I could get a green card (my company will sponsor me), but don’t want to. The UK may have many faults but its still one of the better countries to live – you even get better summers now! Besides, many countries you may choose to move to also have their own stability issues. A swing to the right (or left) is hardly a UK-only phenomena. We just need to get through this fad and things may settle down. The UK is a fundamentally decent country with decent people. Being away has definitely taught me to appreciate things more and look at things in a different light.

The us is the last place I would be looking… Canada is prime choice and it is pretty simple to go there as a British citizen. I also have Canadian family…

Lee1, Don’t come to America. We don’t want spineless traitors.

I have no intention of living in the US. President Trump is far worse than staying in the UK in a no deal catastrophe. Plus I quite like not getting shot…

And I am not a spineless traitor. (You really need to look up the meaning of those words). I have been in the UK armed forces and I am proud of my country as it was. I am not proud of what it is becoming and I as a parent have to look after the interests of my children. My children did not get to vote on their future, it was taken away by a generation that is about to start dying off in large numbers… If there was a war then I would fight for our rights and would willingly die for my country against an aggressor. However what has actually happened is that people have voted to make my life worse based on lies and misinformation. I am sorry, but I do not feel that I have any duty to stick around to help those that did that to me…

The harder the better as far as i am concerned.

@ Daniele Mandelli – I am now far more optimistic that we WILL leave on 31st October. The new PM has made that abundantly clear and has built a Cabinet that supports that objective. For a start its the return of a disciplined and collectively responsible Cabinet. Which will remind Tory MPs how they should support the party for whom they were elected.

I am not sure TM deliberately lost her majority – she was misled by a 20 point lead in the OPs. She was just useless at campaigning.

Parliament cannot as such block a No Deal exit as it is only the Government that can introduce Primary legislation and it is written in 2 separate UK Laws that we WILL leave on that day. The only reason we didn’t leave on March 29th was TM didn’t have the guts and hadn’t made sufficient preparation to just walk away. So asked for an extension. Johnson will not ask for one and cannot be made to either.

Now its all very well for the EU to grandstand right now and before but then they were never faced with the very real prospect of us walking away. And taking our £39 Bn (or rather £33 Bn now) with us. Johnson will make that possibility very clear to Barnier & Co so lets see how the EU, faced with an economy that is nosediving, the loss of its 2nd largest contributor and continuing illegal migration in the Med amongst many difficulties, really wants to have a No Deal scenario with its biggest export market worth £100 Bn a year Nett in Goods.

But if the EU are rigid in their stance then so be it and everyone will see who is to blame. As I have said before take out the Irish Backstop and we have a deal.

and lastly I am not at all fussed about that NI Bill. It was the last throw of the Tory rebels dice before they got kicked out of Cabinet. The Amendment merely says that the UK parliament cannot be prorogued (unless for a GE) before the Stormont Assembly is restarted. So restart the assembly! Not sure that is a very proper way to get out of the EU. I voted to restore Parliamentary Sovereignty not have it removed because it is being difficult.

BoJo will get a deal of that I am sure because the EU will know he means it, Parliament will blink before the possibility of No Deal and we WILL leave with No Deal if necessary as it is already in Statute. The PM actually doesn’t have to do anything and it just happens.

Evening Chris.

As usual, thank you for providing clarity to my understanding of things.

I thought the NI amendment required the gov to make regular reports to Parliament, which it cannot do if it is not sitting?

@ Daniele Mandelli – Quote:
“I thought the NI amendment required the gov to make regular reports to Parliament, which it cannot do if it is not sitting?”
Technically this was the mechanism used by the Remainers to ensure Parliament would have to sit to discuss ‘progress’ in Northern Ireland. It doesn’t mean they could debate anything else but as I said the amendment only stands between 9 October and 18 December unless a Northern Ireland executive is formed.

We all know why it was done but on a personal note while I despise the method I would not support proroguing of Parliament just to ensure we leave. I voted for Parliamentary Sovereignty not to bypass it as the EU does now.

And your thoughts on Labour calling a no confidence motion before October? Allied with Tory rebels like Hammond?

@ Daniele Mandelli – This may take a few minutes so bear with me ….

Only Corbyn can table such a Motion of No Confidence and if the Prime Minister loses (for whatever reason and whoever is to blame) then we will have a General Election. I am sure this is a tactic the Remain Parliament will have wanted to use as a last resort. Having said that in procedural terms that boat has sailed and he should have done it this week. But of course Speaker could not have allowed it because the new Government has not tabled any legislation in which the House could have had ‘No Confidence’. Of course the Summer Recess has not helped them in that process because Parliament only resumes on September 3rd. So the earliest timetable would be (and remember the House only sits / ‘works’ 4 days a week):
* ‘No Confidence’ passed (say September 3rd)?
* Within 14 working days Gov. can propose ‘Vote of Confidence’ (say September 26th)
* Vote lost?
* Parliament dissolved – all legislation stays ‘as is’ (say September 30th)
* 25 working days later on the next Thursday the General Election takes place (say November 14th)
By which time we will have left and Parliament cannot act to stop it as it will have been prorogued by its own actions.

Now given how the polls are right now (but reminding ourselves we will have already left!) the Tories will win but fail (again) to win a majority, The Brexit Party (recently 2nd / 3rd in the Polls) will gain a few seats from the Tory / ex Tory / ex Labour rebels in Leave Constituencies like Anna Soubry and Hammond but will hoover up the 155 odd Labour Leave Constituencies (people like Pixie Balls-Cooper, Stephen Kinnock, Owen Smith) now Labour has become a Remain and 2nd vote supporting party. % wise Leave vs Remain parties are equal @ 42% but in seats terms a Tory / BP / DUP alliance will have a massive majority despite however many SNP MPs get elected

As I will respond to a Remainer below there is actually no legislative way this Parliament can stop us leaving on 31st October. It will need Primary Legislation or a Motion (which can only be tabled by the Government) to change the date of leaving and I am sure the PM and his advisers will be aware of that and make sure very little if any such legislation is tabled before October. Remember any Amendment must be relevant to the Bill being debated and Speaker (for all his pro Remain wishes) has to abide by the rules as dictated by Erskine May (Latest Edition). And given Jacob Rees-Mogg, the pre-eminent constitutional expert in that House, is Leader then I suspect he will also be watching procedural accuracy.

All the above is of course my best knowledge and I am happy to be corrected ….

You may be correct in a few of your points, however if Boris loses a vote of no confidence and still takes us out of the EU on the 31st then he will show that he is spiteful to the last. The conservatives will also not get elected in a new election. They are a spent force as are labour under Corbyn. The only two parties left to fight it out are the brexit party and the lib Dems. Given that only the brexit party have hardly any policies and would be hopelessly out of their depth in government it is likely the lib Dems could win. Also the young people that actually have to live in this country after all this mess are not going to forgive the crappy baby boomer generation that have caused all of this on top of being the least likely to want to do anything about climate change. Basically we have all been screwed over by one selfish generation…. They will go down as the most despised generation in history…

@ Lee1 – So much to take apart and so little time ….
I repeat for your education the earliest a ‘No Confidence’ vote can take place will be September 3rd. 14 days later if he loses a ‘Confidence’ vote he will ask HM the Queen to prorogue Parliament. It will stay as such way past the 31st of October until a GE. Given this Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 and its inferred leave date, it also voted for the Withdrawal Act and its inferred leave date and approved the 31st October date it will not be the PM but PARLIAMENT that will take us out. Sorry to disabuse you of your fantasy.

Well if its between the Brexit Party and the LDs then I am glad I joined the Brexit Party and coughed up £25. They won the EU Elections by a country mile and took the most seats and in doing so they won by a huge margin all the voting areas as well (for which read Constituencies).

And then you drip out the old Remainer stupidity that “it Was The Oldies Wot Dunnit!” and somehow the younger folks ‘lost out’. Well as a campaigner in Suffolk that delivered a 60% Leave vote I can tell you there were as many young Leave voters as older people. Something I saw again at the Wembley event. And given there were only some 6.3 Mn OAPs (or baby boomers as you call us) in 2016 and most were unable to vote (the LDs reckon 65% voted) how do you explain how we gained a further 12 Mn votes? If you are going to make arguments at least make sure you produce facts rather than opinionated rhetoric.

What you claim you saw is not backed up by actual evidence. Baby boomers were far more likely than not to vote for brexit. The older generation than those were less likely to vote to leave but there are not many of them left. The younger generation were also most likely to vote to remain. That leaves the in-between generations that were split down the middle. The baby boomers are a large part of our society unfortunately. They are the ones with largely final salary pensions and they are the ones that own most of the rental housing stock and also most are either retired or nearing retirement in the next few years.

And yes parliament approved the 31st October date but that was not with the caveat that we would not be allowed to extend it. It was also approved due to it being the only option on the table that prevented an immediate exit from the EU.

And I am glad you are happy giving your money to Farage. He after all has made a fortune out of Brexit. He bet in the result in the first place after subduing the market by claiming that remain had lost (despite knowing otherwise). He also stands to lose a fortune due to EU laws if we stay in the EU. (As do boris and friends).

Just like Boris. Farage is a serial liar and spreader if misinformation. He has duped you just like Boris. But that is yours to live with. I will be out of here if the worst happens. You can stay in the remnants of the once great UK.

@ Lee1 – I make no ‘claims’ Old Son so sod off with calling me a liar. I know what I saw in weeks of campaigning, leaflet drops and knocking doors. And that 65% was the rather exaggerated LibDem figure on how many of the OAPS voted Leave not how many voted.

All you are trotting out is your Remainer confirmation bias projected as fact when it is just an opinion. Worse it projects a false image that the older generation somehow did it to spite the younger generation. Now given it is that older generation that built and sustained the country, economy, health services, schooling and housing that benefited the ‘younger generation’ that seems a rather abrupt and unbelievable ‘volte face’ does it not? And yet you have NO explanation on how some 12 Mn non OAPs voted Leave. None were the ‘younger generation’ at all? Where is your proof?

Oh and btw – I voted Leave, I am 72 now but I have no ‘final salary pension’ just my military one, a private one I funded and my State Pension. Forgive my rather luxurious lifestyle. So are you saying I deliberately voted to harm the two kids I adopted out of care some 40 years ago? Your argument falls down right there.

Thank you Chris, as always. My knowledge is limited on the ins and outs of politics and you’re educational in that regard.

There was me thinking that this was a Forum for Military subjects. Well done for wasting about 10 minutes of my life.

The MPs loyalties should be with the UK not their party. Parliament can indeed block a no deal in many ways. They can call no confidence in the government and that will indeed happen. I am confident that the intelligent MPs will prevail and the idiot no dealers will fall into political oblivion. If not then I will be off. I am not staying in a country that is that stupid that it will voluntarily put itself into a catastrophic situation and all based on lies and myths. It is ludicrous. I have a family to look after so I will do what is best for them.

@ Lee1 – Your first sentence is absolutely correct if you mean by ‘the UK’ its electorate but then you make some rather odd assumptions in contradiction. Maybe you are adopting the typically self righteous view that Remainers know better than the Electorate and therefore they must be overruled? If MPs indeed DID act as their Constituents voted (in the 2016 Referendum and in the 2017 GE) then the Withdrawal Agreement would have been passed by a majority of 100 at first asking and we would have left on March 29th.

You see Lee what you seem to misunderstand is that we have some 250 MPs (160 of whom are Labour) who are NOT acting as their Constituents voted. Indeed they are acting in CONTRADICTION! If you want any confirmation of that look at the number of voting areas (for which read Constituencies) in the recent EU Elections. The Brexit Party swept the board. Indeed the UoEA and UoL researched the 2016 results and found that had that been a GE then Leave would have had a 150 seat majority.

Sorry to disabuse you of your certainty but Parliament per se can in no way stop us leaving on WTO Terms (lets have the right terminology?) They can only ‘suggest’ or ‘pass a motion’ that has no binding powers. And for a detailed analysis as to why a Vote of No Confidence will actually ensure we leave on 31st October please read above in my response to Daniele. Its too late for that stupidity!

If you have zero confidence in the country that has raised you and presumably educated you and provided you and your family with an income, health care and all the rest and in which you have the political freedom to insult and demean those of a different opinion then to be honest you come across as rather weak and ungrateful. You won’t be missed but I wish your family good luck.

However I must quote you:
“I am confident that the intelligent MPs will prevail and the idiot no dealers will fall into political oblivion”
And there for all to see is yet again the self righteous superiority of the Remainer. Only YOUR view is ‘intelligent’ and us Brexiteers and MPs who DO respect their electorates are ‘idiots’. Forgive my being blunt Lee but screw you and jog off.

Remainers are not necessarily more intelligent however leavers are certainly the least likely to look up the truth. Boris has managed to lie repeatedly and his supporters know no different than his lies despite the truth being easily found online. My dad for instance has no idea how the EU works yet still repeatedly states the myths that have been peddled over the years. I told him to look it up and see for himself but he simply says “I don’t need to look up the truth as I know what has been said over the years” yep he basically does not want to know the truth as it would prove him wrong all these years….

Boris was still telling lies last week about kippers! Brexiteers seem to not care about the lies as they align with that they want to think. That is not the Mark of an Intelligent individual. Business have been pleading to not have a hard brexit yet Boris seems not to care. Skilled workers have been pleading for a soft brexit or non at all yet again they are ignored. They are all the ones likely to ditch the UK if a hard brexit hurts the economy (it will).

Then there is the Union. A hard brexit makes it far more likely that Scotland and Northern Ireland will leave the UK. That is not a great outcome from all of this. This is a huge mess and all because Cameron wanted to prevent a breakup of the conservative party….

Trump supporters don’t care what the truth is…he could be guilty of the most heinous crimes, and they would idiotically chant ‘fake news’. It the same reason people choose the same newspaper to read…they know that their prejudices will be pandered to. Websites like this are somewhat different, they do allow views to be challenged! But even then, when their preconceptions are outed as lies, they cry foul play! A good example of this is the way that Marc Francois deliberately hears things the way he wants to!

Have a look at this video where Fatty Francois tries to stare down Will Self…and failing!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfFrW4yDubc

One of the most irritating phrases ever in its various forms is Country before Party. If a politician did not believe their Party had the best interests of the nation at heart, then they should not have ran for election on the party platform.

Tosh. They could have thought that when they joined up and could have thought that for many years of service. However believing your parties principles are correct and believing that most of the policies are correct is different from ignoring all issues. For instance if I were a member of the Labour party I would not be supporting the antisemitic behaviour and would potentially vote against my party to prevent the behaviour. I can support my friends I can support a party but if any of them need telling that they are wrong then that is the correct thing to do.

Party platforms or as they are called in the UK “manifestos” are publicly available and are declared every election. In the case of the Tory party one of the things campaigned on was “no deal is better than a bad deal”. If they disagreed so strongly they could have left the the party and campaigned under a different platform or as a independent.
If you campaigned as a Tory vote like one. If you campaign as Labour vote according to the party principles (which ostensibly do not allow for anti-semitism). To do otherwise means you lied to your voters.

The views of each MP were laid out for public view. Those that voted for them did so with that knowledge. (Or probably not if as normal, people simply voted as they always have… Those that stayed in the conservative party did so in the hope of changing the path from a no deal brexit to a soft brexit while still maintaining conservative party principles. Those principles are often pro business, however Boris seems to have burned that bridge. The only large supporter base left are the high earners and he helpfully pandered to us by promising less tax for us… Thanks but I would rather a long term stability than an unpopular tax break…

We need to move very fast with the Americans, I would offer Nigel Farage a job as a special envoy, leading a group to liaise with the Trump administration, to help generate a great trade deal.

You may not like Trump, or Mr Farage, but the planets are in alignment right now.

Mr Farage could be a huge asset, with not a second to waste….

I would hope a backroom deal with the BREXIT Party will be underway very soon, with suitable assurances being given.

Boris should give his administration one month from tomorrow to market and vote his new modified BREXIT deal to Parliament and the EU.

If they are both still intent on resisting, then call an election in September and force through a no deal exit with a Conservative majority, if this becomes unfortunately necessary….

Everything else is secondary to this 98 day countdown in my opinion.

You mean do exactly what Trump says? When Trump tells us to withdraw from the Paris climate agreement, should we do that as well? Should execute criminals and send Brits back to where they “came from?”. Privatize the NHS to US health companies and watch them fleece the tax payer and make lots of manual errors due to incompetence/greed, anyone – CHICKENS COME HOME TO ROOST!

This is exactly what I feared. We leave the EU colony to become the 51st State of the Union. We drop our pants, our standards and our principles simply as we have turned our backs on EU. Or we don’t do that but we join the Chinese sphere of influence instead. Great choice!

Julian, we have been in Uncle Sam’s sphere of influence since WW2 and arguably a lot longer.

I don’t particularly like Mr Trump, or is views, but Presidents come and presidents go…

A good trade deal with the US is absolutely vital moving forward.

Don’t get caught up with Trump’s views, he’s a passing fad, our trade deal will last for many decades to come and numerous White House occupiers.

But that’s exactly my point. “a good trade deal” for the UK is impossible, we have nothing the US really needs. They may want some access to our markets but what do they want to import from us? We strike a trade deal when we are at our weakest and yet we are stuck with it for decades to come. By striking a deal you can pretty much guarantee that standards will drop and values will be forgotten. It’s very sad and as for mr farage, he is in no way qualified to be involved. He’s a spiv and will be looking to line pockets.

Well Julian, I’m afraid we will have to agree to disagree on this.

I think we have a golden opportunity to move forward in the world, as an independent country.

We stand side by side with the US as an important, but junior partner, as we always have, but with a free trade deal cementing our position.

Our EU position was untenable, it’s time to turn it into a free trade agreement and let the EU go on their increasingly blinkered insular way, tying themselves up in more and more red tape and becoming less and less internationally relavent.

As for Mr Farage not being qualified to be involved, he is the instigator of BREXIT and puppet master, he has pretty much single handedly created BREXIT and has used his influence to ensure the Tories move to the right and deliver it.

He knows how the US administration ticks and it would be crazy not to utilise him to the full.

Not qualified to be involved, watch this space Julian…

I’m interested to know what you think we’ll trade with the US. Here is a list of what I know America likes from the UK and will import and/or invest in and then I follow that with a list of what America could import/support but probably won’t since we compete with them (and do it very well.) The list is very incomplete and I’m looking for you to fill the gaps:

Likes (we can do more of this:)
Foodstuffs – Jam, cheese, chocolate
Culture – music, movies, EPL, anything to do with Royal Family, tourism
Fashion – UK designer brands (probably manufactured elsewhere)
Automotive – Jaguar/Land Rover and select high luxury brands do very well but are increasingly manufactured away from UK. Electric cars perhaps?
Environmental – we had the chance of being “world class” with this stuff (wind farms, tidal energy) but have probably fallen behind. Trump hates it – coal/gas all the way

In competition (the stuff we lead the world in but compete with USA)
Financial Services – we do it very well but so do they and we compete hard
Fintech – London/Edinburgh are arguably global capitals but SF Bay area does it very well too
Military hardware (specialisms) – would the US ever buy non-US equipment OR equipment from overseas?
Airbus – for now at least we still manufacture in the UK. Airbus has proven itself to build better planes certainly for short/medium haul
Aero-engines – RR in direct competition with GE/PW

Now unless you think that suddenly the US will start importing or otherwise investing in the second group, I think your beliefs are just fantasy. Trump has made it very clear its America first and whilst that is the case, any trade deal will come nowhere near to that we can do with Europe.

What is your view on regulation?
Climate – do we suddenly forget Paris?
Financial Services – Trump has already torn up Dodd Frank – do we reduce our regulation and risk another credit crunch?
Pharma/food manufacture – European/UK standards are currently way higher than US standards which protects citizens
Tax – do we just let FB, Amazon, Instagram off the hook and allow them to screw our high streets or push propaganda/untruths and affect our children’s mental health without paying any tax, control or limitations?
NHS and private health – I mentioned that elsewhere

Now if you’re saying you don’t care about any of this stuff then you’re paying our country and its people a big disservice.

As I’ve said all along, Brexit just means a new master, not true independence. It is a fantasy

Well Julian, we will have to see won’t we…

A UK/ US free trade agreement with the US will more closely meet UK economic requirements than the current third party (one size fits all ) EU
US market access agreement we currently have.

Regarding Trump/ gas/oil, I say again, presidents come and go and at some point ( not far from now) the US will embrace renewable energy as China is, it’s simply the future economic reality…

While Trump is definitely America first, he is an Anglophile and we will get a good deal, I am sure.

Let’s be positive and embrace the exciting future opportunities for Britain.

A defeatist ( we’re nothing without the EU)
gloomy attitude has held us back for way too long

We really are our own worst enemy at times.

John, you still haven’t been able to give me a specific plan but not to worry, I wasn’t really expecting one. There is no economic case for Brexit, neither is there a humanist case. It is purely about sticking 2 fingers up at the EU and self interest. Trump is not an Anglophile, he just hates the EU and wants to pull the UK away. In that respect, he has the same agenda as Putin. This sorry story has a lot further to run yet, we’ll see how it pans out.

@ Julian1 – As Oddball said in Kelly’s Heroes:
“There you go with all them negative waves!”
You say “we have nothing the US really needs”. Really? The USA is the biggest inward investor in the UK and the UK is the biggest inward investor in the USA for a start.
https://www.uschamber.com/international/europe/us-uk-business-council/us-uk-trade-and-investment-ties

Our trade is about balanced (unlike with the EU) where in 2018 we exported some $60.8 Bn to the USA while importing some $66.3 Bn. We are the USA’s 4th largest market. So I would suggest we are mutually beneficial to each other and clearly the USA sees a big market both ways. That is good trade and even better inward investment.

We are not now or will we be ‘at our weakest’. Trade is still trade and our economy remains the same and some of us have the confidence in the UK to see global trade as the way to grow our economy exponentially. Shame you do not share that confidence.

And you again project a false assumption as fact – why will and why should standards drop? We lead the world in food and other standards especially in live animal welfare. And before you mention ‘chlorinated chicken’ remember all the salad we import from Europe is ‘protected’ by chlorinated washing ….

And finally your comments on Farage are unnecessary, grossly insulting and fundamentally wrong. So what if he has a good relationship with the current POTUS? That could have been very useful in the last 3 years. Now I am no fan of Trump but we are where we are and he IS the POTUS.

Farage established a political party that in weeks swept the board in EU Elections and came a very close 2nd (some say he won) a Parliamentary election. He has been the single biggest non Parliamentary force in British politics in the last 20 years and he alone (by leading UKIP into more votes than the SNP and LibDems combined) forced Cameron into calling that Referendum. People see through spivs and he isn’t one.

Very well put Chris…

Negative waves indeed …

A classic film John!

CHRIS , you’ve thrown a whole load of numbers which are quite meaningless. I want products and goods – what will they be?

A small point but you misunderstand the whole notion of “chlorinated chicken”. The point of using chlorine in itself is that it is quite harmless to health – hence the EU uses it to wash salad and you probably bathe in it when you go to the swimming pool. However, in the US it is used to clean up the damage caused by otherwise sub-standard farming practices with regard to poultry. I know very well that there is plenty of choice here and that includes the good stuff. But its very likely the cheap stuff of low quality will be dumped on the UK market – at least amongst the good stuff and there will be pressure to lower those standards I’m sure.

and Farage is a Spiv. He looks, sounds like and behaves like one. Spends way too much time in the US pursuing his extremist agenda.

Farage is a Spiv. He looks, sounds like and behaves like one. Spends way too much time in the US pursuing his extremist agenda…

That’s a little strong Julian!

There’s nothing extreme about political and economic freedom my friend.

I was shocked by that statement I dropped my monocle in my caviar!

I could say plenty of disparaging things about overtly racist Labour remarks, that appear to be an almost unofficial anti Semitic policy, or the Lib Dems rather worrying contempt for the
democratic vote.

“Bollocks to BREXIT” Bollocks to Democracy more like..

One would suggest they drop ‘Democrats’ from their title, as they clearly don’t believe in Democracy!

@ John clark – I got to your ‘Monocle in Caviar’ comment and had a coffee / keyboard interface moment …

Its quite a comment on current politics when the Liberal Democrats have become THE most illiberal and undemocratic party in the UK and win votes …

and I’m sure you do so all is good

@ Julian1 – Well you have beaten me mate .. I provided a detailed summary and the source of my comments and to you that is ‘meaningless’? So I give up right there. Trade is trade is trade. It is whatever people wish to buy at that time and could be very different a year later. But the overall picture of a near balanced trading scenario IS consistent and one that the USA clearly values as we should.

So whatever I write will now be ‘meaningless’ and so I am out of anything further with you.

Farage an extremist? Now that is funny. Please refine your definitions on political extremism. The belief that “everyone who disagrees with me must be a extremist”, sounds like a very lonely existence.

Did I say that he is an extremist because I don’t agree with him? More like I don’t agree with him because he is an extremist. He has some very nasty views and aims. Do you agree with him?

Nasty views,like what then?

Romanians next door, utter disrespect for THeresa May and Phillip hammond..general contempt for many of his radio listeners, associates with Steve Bannon. You would have thought I had disrespected the Queen or Pope by the way you defend him.

Tell me why you think he’s a good person as I asume you worship him?

On a few things yes. On others? No. I am staunch American Conservative with a few Libertarian leanings.
Disliking Theresa May or Philip Hammond doesn’t seem to be a uncommon view so I don’t understand why you would list it?
Contempt for his radio listeners? Well his listeners don’t seem to think so.
No I don’t think it is like you disrespected the Queen or Pope. For one I am a Methodist so really don’t give a damn about the Pope, and as she is not my Queen I don’t care.
My question essentially boils down to – What is your definition of extremism? It seems overly broad.

Leaving the EU on any basis is quite extreme. Why? Because no one has ever done it. Being prepared to leave without a deal (and in fact, given his way, he would have left within 3 months after the referendum without even attempting a deal) is even more extreme. Combined with his love affair with all things Trumpian and his willingness to break the mold, he is extreme. For the UK anyway. Some (not me) would argue the UK needs extremists. Does that clear matters up for you?

A extreme view is not one that enjoys majority or even a large amount of support within the electorate.
As for how he would left 3 months after the referendum? Well in the US that is how referendums work. If a State has one and doesn’t enforce the result immediately they run afoul of their separate Constitutions.
Willingness to break the mold? That used to be a sought after trait.
The rest of your reasoning boils down to – “orange man bad”.

I think Brexit is far more complex and profound than any State matter. It’s the way the mold is broken particularly in an ancient system. It’s all about where you are on the spectrum, the US sits on another part of the spectrum..that’s why gun control, abortion, comprehensive public health systems are not considered radical (extreme) in Europe and indeed the developed world, but are in the US. I get it.

Well said Chris.

I did not rise to the “spiv” jibe, but I was sorely tempted to.

if I had known calling Farage a spiv would upset so many Brexiters, I would have done it sooner and more frequently. I often listen to his show on LBC as I like seeing him brawl. He’s actually pretty good at that – many people call him far worse than Spiv and its like water off a duck’s back to him.

Water off a duck’s back it may be…however, milkshakes seem to upset him much more. The bombastic charlatan!

We are the a large market to the US for goods and that is without a deal. They will not want that to be eroded by a deal that allows us to export more than we import and they will use to opportunity to make sure it is the other way. The US does not like to have a trade deficit with other countries. It currently does with the UK and will be looking for this to change so that it has a trade surplus. Let’s also not forget that Trump recently put scotch whisky under import tax rises. We know he thinks the trade deal with the EU was poor for the US and he wants to change that. Do you think he will want to give the UK great treatment? The US really wants to export chicken dairy and better access to the NHS market. Currently the dairy and chicken products are restricted due to EU food standards laws. The NHS is a thorn in the US side due to it being the world’s largest buyer of drugs. This means the NHS gets to effectively set prices for drugs and the US hates this, they want the NHS to pay US prices (which can be 40 times higher than UK prices, to the point where people in the US have to buy their live saving drugs from Mexico ironically). The EU gets to compete with the US on trade talks because it is so big. The UK by itself is much smaller and so we will get screwed over bug time. Also remember Boris has said he can not stand Trump and has severely insulted him… Although he seems to change his mind when it suits his needs…

@ Lee1 – And when all else fails a Remainer will always be guaranteed to push out the old ‘NHS for sale’ myth.

Give up Lee your ‘facts’ are just opinions, your allegations have been disproved every time and you are now just trying to score stupid points. The EU does not fix pharma prices for a start. And if the NHS has big buying power how does that change? Companies will sell to where the volume buyers are and that will not change. Have a read of this and get back to us with sourced facts where any of this will be changed by some trade deal with the USA when:
“The private sector produces nearly all the medicines and vaccines available to us. Companies need to make a profit – and a return – on global investment in order to maintain investment in the next generation of medicines. When setting the price of an individual medicine, companies will consider a number of factors including how well the medicine treats patients, how many patients might benefit from it, the value that health systems might place on a medicine in the disease area in question and the price of competing products”

https://www.abpi.org.uk/what-we-do/medicine-pricing-in-the-uk/

Lee, Trump said himself he wanted the NHS to be included in trade talks when he visited – he was then swiftly advised to back-track by Woody Johnson. However, you’re right and of course the NHS will be on the table. I hope if it was turned over, there would have to be some carrot so huge for the UK that it would prove irresistible but even then I would have severe reservations because of course there will always be victims. The US health system actually provides brilliant care if you’re lucky enough to be able to afford a health policy. I think 20m Americans are left without since Obamacare has been unwound. As brilliant as the care is, the administration is very poor and in my family’s experience (and we’;ve had a lot), I would say 50% of bills are incorrect. The reason being confusion between the insurance companies and individual health providers. Some if it is clinicians completing forms wrong or processing being incorrect. Most errors are corrected when requested. The bills can be eye-wateringly high even with insurance. Anyway, my point is that if GP Centres/walk-in centres and A&E departments are forced to procure care from privatized companies, the number of errors are likely to be huge particularly when using a new system. In the confusion, the NHS is likely to be over-charged massively. Of course the tax payer will pay. It will be another example of very poor PPI and we will all be left scratching our heads asking why?

Oh, and yes drugs are incredibly expensive too. In my job I visit quite a few palatial pharmaceutical campuses so you can see where the money is spent.

As long as it ain’t Hillary and her cohorts.

That makes no sense… So you are fine with Trump and his policies that are against all known science? Yet you hate Gary who is no longer an option for president? Hmmm I bet you have a MAGA hat too…

Make Albion Great Again,that’s an idea!

In my daughter’s high school, apparently quite a few of the kids believe the world is flat. I can’t believe it personally (the belief, not that the world is flat) but some of the teachers have confirmed that view. We live in a Republican seat within a Democrat state…

Indeed, science has already taken a beating from the religious nuts in certain areas of the US with creationism. Trump is not helping by peddling his own brand of science (namely that which confirms anything he says) I mean he has launched his own plastic straws to combat the communist paper ones! And this is the president we want to do a deal with!!!!

I am not aware of any Republicans who believe that the world is flat. A few fundamentalists who believe in creationism? Yes. Flat Earthers? No. Idiot does not know a political ideology. For example I know of a Democratic Rep who believed Guam was going to tip over.
Also seriously the paper straws because of moral panic over a damn turtle was a little rich. Especially since if you have any friend or family who are disabled you would know that they despise paper straws. Trumps plastic straw thing was just another fund raiser and another barb at people who seemingly want to ban everything.

Agree Julian. For all the post imperial global bluster the UK is too vulnerable to stand alone in a world which will be dominated by China- it is their century.
A Bojo Brexit means we have chosen to be the 51st state of America rather than a significant influence in the EU. We have chosen to align with an essentially Masonic US culture rather than a European Catholic culture.
Roll up your trowser leg and take the oath brother !

Morning Julian and Paul,

You guys are perfectly entitled to your remain position and I always enjoy a healthy democratic debate.

I regularly do business in Europe and have absolutely nothing against our European brothers.

I just think Britain is better off in charge of its own destiny, as did the majority in the democratic vote that sealed this position.

It’s happening, like it or not, so lets all push forward together and embrace a new future.

Have a great weekend guys

@ John Clark – I can add nothing more than just say ‘Well Said Sir!’

Have a good weekend.

It was in charge of its own destiny already, people just have no idea how the EU works and did not ever want to know. It suited them to be able to blame all the issues on the EU rather than their own elected officials. Boris has still been doing this. Last week he combined about EU laws harming our kipper industry. It was a total lie. The laws he was talking about are UK laws but that did not suit his argument… Making it a EU issue meant that he gained support against the enemy despite the enemy in this case being ourselves.

Most of the EU laws that brexiteers dislike are actually UK lead laws or purely UK laws or are totally made up myths spread by the papers. Take immigration for example. Over half of all immigration comes from outside the EU and we could have ended that at any point. It was convenient to blame the EU though… Those that voted leave are not interested in hearing the truth about this as it conflicts with their near religious belief in Brexit and the evils of the EU.

If you do business you will know this and you will be aware of the added issues for your business if we leave.

If you think we are going to be any more independent after we leave then think again. The world has changed since we joined the EU, it is now a global.market and we are not an empire. We will end up being under the thumb of the US instead of the EU. While other countries in the world are joining similar clubs to the EU, we are leaving one we had serious influence over. To be all alone with less economies of scale and less bargaining power. The US will wipe the floor with us in any trade deal we have with them.

Hi Lee,

It’s good that you’re passionate about your position, I can certainly respect that.

I do quite a lot of business in France ( mainly Normandy and Brittany) and have certainly noticed an increasingly anti EU sentiment there in certain quarters, building progressively over the last three years.

There’s a growing distance between the Paris EU centric liberal middle classes and the general population in the provances.

It’s certainly not something contained to the UK.

I’m 51, so never got the opportunity to vote to join the common Market, many people voted yes back then, because A, the UK had sunk into a very apathetic condition, unsure of its place in the world post Empire and B, with an economy seemingly in terminal decline.

The issue is this, that ‘free trade’ Common Market has turned into a sprawling bureaucracy, that’s become so large it’s become a defacto Federal collective.

As an institution, the EU can’t stand still, it needs to move towards ever closer union to survive.

The different interest rates and economic uncoupling of those states in and out of the euro is becoming rapidly untenable.

What does that mean in real terms? All members being forced into the Euro, further deterioration of National Sovereignty with the eventual creation of a single European state and individual members becoming little more than provinces.

You only have to stand back and view the direction of travel to see this happening in real time, it’s simply a necessary creeping federalisation.

All EU members will be in the Euro by 2030, with majority voting in place and no right of national veto.

The EU has got so large, it simply cannot survive without this happening.

Is this a bad thing?

It very much depends on your perspective I suppose.

Some regard themselves as European and are perfectly happy with the direction of travel, nothing wrong with that…

The UK has chosen ( by democratic vote) to take a new direction and find its own way in the world.

We (hopefully) now have a Government that will complete the process and remove us from the EU and ironically replace it with the ‘Common Market’ free trade deal my parents actually voted for all those years ago!

I feel confident the UK will do very well in the decades to come, with a positive attitude and hard work, we can once again chart our own destiny.

Like I said at the beginning of my long ramblings Lee, we all quite rightly have our heart felt position and healthy democratic debate informs us all.

We are leaving the EU ( like it or not), so lets leave yesterdays debate behind and look to the future.

Have a great weekend, cheers John.

I am looking to the future. It is sadly not one that appears to be in the UK… I will be taking my skills somewhere else if we leave with no deal. I am the most patriotic person you can get but I will not have my life adversely affected out of pure spite and lies. Remember the common market vote was one of a specific majority (ie it had to reach 60% unlike the dumb 50/50 vote for brexit). So a clear majority took us in and it has benefitted us greatly ever since. We are no longer an empire and we now live in a world where we have a global market. We are not in a good position to go it alone and will sing swap our membership of the EU where we have a lot of influence for a deal with the US where we have almost zero influence. Not a great move in my opinion.

Morning Lee, are we all insomniacs!?

I’m curious, as a patriot, how do you square the circle of the loss of national identity and Sovereignty that’s coming down the road for all EU members?

I’m not doubting your patriotism, just curious how you would feel about the loss of the pound and individual national vetos?

Do you regard the above as a necessary sacrifice for the good of all in the EU?

European first mindset, (a common ethos I find on the continent), nothing wrong with that position whatsoever, it’s a pre requisite for EU support really.

I think these are absolute red lines personally…

I can’t argue with your logic about the 60% pass the post mark for the Common Market vote in the 70’s.

The 50% pass the post number was always going to be a flashpoint, poorly thought out, but we are were we are.

So you are seriously thinking of moving to Europe?

The best of luck with your plans in that case, come to think of it, you should be able to get joint EU / UK nationality and still enjoy a sort of EU experience…

Suppose a Democrat President in 2020 and BoJo or similar in No 10. Can you imagine the grovelling?

That’s good i’m not a Catholic.

Not a Catholic …. Be careful what you say Marc, no-one expects the Spanish inquisition!

@ John Clark – Ah yes: Cardinal Fang and his friends…
Although personally I always wanted to be a Lumberjack…

Funnily enough many National Socialists were!

Are you sure you are English? have some backbone man.

Yep on all of them.

Yep let’s get stuffed by the US! Let’s face it, any deal with them is going to heavily be in their favour. I do not really want to eat chlorinated chicken…. I also like the medicine prices to be controlled…

the medicine prices are outrageous – and that is just for generics!!

He did T.S. But very brief and nothing more than paying tribute, the usual political guff. No commitments.

I remember Gordon Brown paying tribute to the military during his leaving speech outside no 10, and look how he performed.

How could he? There will be no money to pay for the military expansions! We are likely to be around £30billion worse off per year! In fact it is likely that there will be cutbacks rather than new spend…

He has no wriggle room whatsoever Geoffrey ….zip … Zero….bugger all….., he has to have a fully matured and thought out plan, that needs to be enacted this week to achieve what he’s promised.

It’s the 11th hour, we will see exactly how much of what he’s said proves to be hot air or bullish action very, very soon.

The team is shaping up nicely for bulldozering out on October 31.

One things for sure, an election is just round the corner…..

Just like the cabinet, Parliament needs a good clear out with a stiff yard broom.

Can’t argue with this Iohn. Like I said. I am happy to be proved wrong.

I’d leave it till 2022. Get Brexit done and for people to see actually they are not in a Gaulish village and the sky has not fallen on their heads.

Although they may not have a job and their houses may not be worth what they paid for them. £30 billion is a lot of money to make back up when we have not got any companies or workforce left to generate it.

The problem is he talks a lot about what is bad about the deal but never states what he actually wants, which I suspect means he hasn’t a clue.

This will impact the military also. Talk of not enough frigates and insufficient xyz but no talk about fixing it.

Let’s hope I’m wrong but it seems successive defence ministers talk a good game but never are tied down on details of what it actually means ala the 192b figure. Johnson is the master of not being tied down on details and I suspect that means same of the old stuff, more cuts in the guise of efficiency, more mothballing under a new name etc etc

Of course he has not got a clue. He purposefully avoided any questions about what his plans were. Remember he was a EU fan until the day he decided to run for Brexit campaign. I don’t think he though leave would win and then he would have been the lead figure on the anti-EU side of the party but in a good position as he would not have been the one keeping us in so he would have ousted Cameron. He would then have been PM in charge of a prosperous UK in the EU. However he did not think he would have to have a plan to leave which is why he has been able to peddle lies so freely. Boris never believed he had £350 million a week to play with he just made.itnup.as it sounded good on a bus.

Can’t wait to see the design of the Borris Tank.

spot on geoffrey.

Very true, but Boris has promised and a politicians promise is worth …. Very little to be honest…

But, let’s try and be positive, he’s constructed an EU exiting bulldozer of a cabinet and he appears to have got the Germans nervous, so that’s a good start.

Parliament will put up the barricades and try to resist the tide of change, so a general election is absolutely on the cards, perhaps within a month or so.

I personally think Boris can win a good working majority ( perhaps not a landslide), especially as a number of Tory remain MP’s could well loose the whip.

Most people are generally horrified at the prospect of a Corbyn Government … Corbyn remains by far the PM’ s best weapon for victory!

I very much doubt Boris is going to be re-elected by his constituents unless he stops the third runway at Heathrow being built!

I never understood the LHR option. Gatwick for me but then my UK house is right under the LHR northern runway flight path. seriously, why put all eggs in the LHR basket, it makes no sense and the plans for the M25 are miserable

Cor yes! Close M25 to divert it into a tunnel?? We will feel the effects of that down my way.

No need for more T45’s at all – the T26 is far superior and we should order at least 13 and improve the radars on all of them so that they are dual ASW, AAW destroyers.

That then makes an enhanced T31 (24 Mk41 VLS) our GPF To be built over the next 25 years, replacing the MCM and OPV fleets as we go along.

13 – 130m (T31) – Absalon class equivalent
13 – 130m (T32) – Huitfeldt class equivalent
13 – 150m (T26) – The UK Arleigh Burke Class

The reality is that we are very close to this already, in numbers but the assets are more role specific (ie 15 Minehunters, 5-7 Rivers, 13 Frigates and 6 Destroyers).

A bit of planning and some more money and we can turn this around, all will require uparming and a raft of unmanned systems, but the cost of the hulls should come down dramatically if we get a drumbeat going of 1.3 ships per year, indefinitely.

I know this mix isn’t to everyone’s taste, but it is a plan that meets current and future requirements.

Are you proposing the last 5 T26s(9 to 13) will be duel ASW and AAW? Most likely some redesign need undertaken. The design for the first 3 is already set in stone as ASW frigates. Second T26 due to start build in mid Aug., the 3rd build start Apr. 21. (25, 20 months).

No – I am saying all of them should be upgraded to be dual ASW/AAW destroyers with the last 5 replacing the T45 hulls in a managed way.

This gives us jam today and jam tomorrow by giving us a scheduled replacement for T45, an increased high end capability as essentially we will have 13 carrier escorts (6 per carrier group) and releases more money for the T31 fleet which can take the Artisan radars that will no longer be required for this class.

For very little additional cost we get a significant capability uplift and the T26 gets another boost.

At the end of the day T45 needs replacing in 15 years – the T26 line will still be going, so the final batch can be upgraded based on whatever the latest tech is in 10-15 years.

It’s all about leveraging sunken costs, creating a schedule of work that is achievable and then driving efficiencies through. We have the best ASW hull in the world, lets use it.

It will not be possible to upgrade the early T26 frigate builds to dual ASW/AAW destroyers, without extensive modification to the foredeck to accommodate a destroyer complement of VLS cells.
It will require a redesign of a later batch 3(9 to 13) T26 to accommodate this variant’s modifications to the superstructure to allow for the increase of the VLS load.
Any attempt to redesign batch 2 will result in a 2 to 3 year delay of T26 procurement at a critical time of replacement of the old T23 frigates.

So building work on T26 would Not restart again until 2026 if a redesign is made to batch 2
T26 to upgrade to dual destroyer(ASW/AAW) standard.
You would need to reduce batch 2 T26 to 3 hulls, and proced to batch 3 build with a new variant.

Not sure that right Meirion X.

The T26 is already far superior to the T45 in terms of VLS load (72 against 48 with 24 of these being Mk41 Strike length) all that really needs done is for the seaceptor VLS to become Sylver/Mk41 tactical length so they can take Aster Ballistic (NT) and allow for seaceptor quad packing. This is a relatively inexpensive upgrade that should be done anyway.

Where work would be required is on the Radar as Sampson is significantly heavier and any upgrade here is likely to require changes to the superstructure. Bear in mind though that the Australians and Canadians both have very powerful radars and are essentially creating what I am proposing anyway. Only the uk believes in niche products that we really cannot afford.

Also given that we are still 2+ years away from the first ships actually being complete structurally I think there is a window of opportunity to enhance this vessel further, especially given its export success.

If not then it is important that the later batches follow this approach and get the upgrade. The costs of all this are funded out of a reduced unit cost by increasing the fleet size, reduced through life costs due to standardisation.

Once again a missed opportunity in my opinion. Especially given that the design work has already been done for the Australian and Canadian models.

Lastly, I really do hope Boris can talk the US into adopting the T26 as its new frigate. This would make it the backbone of NATO and the 5 eyes alliance and would be a win/win, as the T26 is better than anything else in that particular competition.

Maybe. What astounds me is that in the 70s-early 80s we had 50+ escorts of several classes all manned & funded, but we’re told we’re actually richer now. I think what’s happened is every financial squeeze has been used as a pretext to tax the ordinary people more, cut what HMG delivers back whilst the richest(private & corporate) steadily see their tax bills proportionately plummet by hook or crook. If we had an end-of-cold-war bonus, it didn’t seem to go to the public purse.
The Tories still find a spare billion quid for bribes or vanity schemes like HS2 or 3 when they want to, so why not spend them better in everyday essential services & a decent military that can do the job we expect & need of it?

T26 requires half the crew of a T23 or T45, so we can crew them.

There is also a growing realisation that the navy in particular is grossly undermanned and needs more people to meet harmonisation guidelines and actually make it a career people want and one that should have to compromise family life so much.

So we can crew them with what we have now, but we really need another 6k sailors at the very least.

I had it in mind that they could operate out of HMS Jufair and/or Duqm initially but also in the Med and the Caribbean on anti piracy and working against the drug trade etc. They really need to be based permanently overseas so yes I think the idea of a support ship is a good idea, particularly for the latter station. A variation on the Bay Class? Ideal for the Caribbean,a multi purpose ship.

A lot of truth in what you sat Pacman but we’ve got the big boys now.
The Mark 6 would certainly fit the bill whereas I think the CB 90 is more of fast marine attack boat.
Have you seen the new article on Bae ‘s auto.boat yet?

Yes – think its a little bit away and I also dont think unmanned is suitable for everything.

What I do think is that the RN should buy 30 lots of Atlas MCM and also 100 sets of Siebel S100’s today..

These things work and would give us a massive uptick, also lets get the new Marlet 30mm addition on all vessels.

There is stuff we can and should do with certain enabling systems and others we should reconsider

For me a JLSS with 8 CB90’s and 2 S2s connectors and 6 Merlins is far in excess of what any of our vessels can deliver at this point in time. We have 2 Albion class, 3 bays, 1 Argus, and 3-4 solid stores ships to replace. So 8 of these would be able to do so much more and not be tied up alongside when not in their primary role.

I have my fantasy fleet design and it would finish our own RN in short time, for no real increase in cost. Surely getting the right kit into our very capable personnel’s hands is the key here.

Ultimately the RN needs at least £9bn pa to work and probably £14bn to be truly effective and a game changer again. That is a lot of money, but for an island about to go out on its own again, money well spent.

Also a lot of that money comes back to HMG in taxes as it is all spent locally. Time to get behind our forces and uk heavy industry

T26 – a success, Astute – a success, F35B a success the list really does go on, if we choose to even acknowledge what our small country does…

The problem remains Frank that we do not have enough hulls. The only improvement that can be made to a T45 is to add Cruise which should happen anyway…but to put a billion pound Destroyer up against a couple of motor launches with machine guns is crazy. If we are to grow numbers the FPB/Corvette route seems very sensible to me. Anything the Iranians could fire at an FPB they could fire at a bigger vessel.

@ Julian1 – Sadly this what Remainers always do. Just peddle anything negative they can think of and make out its inevitable. Sorry Julian you are so very wrong. Sadly of course you make a sweeping short statement that then needs a detailed reply

Any loss of trust is not inevitable but will be because the EU will have sought to put its beloved ‘Project’ before the best interests of its member states. I totally accept that it has no duty to look after UK’s interests but as a good neighbour on whom it has relied for massive amounts of funding (its 2nd largest and only continuous contributor) and its military and intelligence security since before the EU, EEC and even ECSC was created one would think they would have a positive attitude. Time will tell. But again I will point out the simple fact that the EU is not ‘Europe’ and we are not turning our backs on anyone.

As for collaboration?
* The French have just requested and agreed we join them further in Mali, we have heavy transport and other assets at their disposal.
* The Dutch Navy regularly uses ‘FOST’ to train its front line and other naval assets and have committed a Frigate to the first Uk carrier group possibly including Westlant19 later this year.
* The Norwegians are signed up to sharing maritime aircraft basing with us and Americans at Lossiemouth.
* Sweden has signed up to co-develop advanced air combat and aircraft systems.
* Italy is gradually coming more on board Team Tempest.
* Even Spain is working with us to have closer military working.
* No two country’s military are closer entwined than the UK and the USA.

If NATO is under threat (and I actually agree with you it is) it has nothing to do with Brexit. It is more because the EU is gradually establishing its own military force through extended use of the European Defence Agency. Despite all protestations to the contrary this is the ‘EU Army’ in making and this is precisely how the EU fabricates the trappings of State. Quietly and gradually until it becomes a reality like its Anthem, flag and all the rest I so deeply despise. The economic reality is that post Brexit Canada, the USA and the UK will fund the vast majority of NATO usable assets from OUTSIDE the EU. If the individual countries of the EU are intent on funding an EU Defence Force rather than fund their own for NATO use that is what will threaten NATO not in any way the UK leaving the EU.

I could say the same for brexiteers, blaming EU for everything!

Those plans for collaboration are in place now, but with a no deal and walk away, some may well fall through, especially with the non-nordics. The relationship will change whether you like that or not.

Perhaps you’ll notice that in euro-holidays to come

@ Julian1 – I totally agree with you that the relationship will change. That is exactly what I and 17.4 Mn others voted for! That is not in dispute. Where I fundamentally disagree with EU Luvvies and Remainers is that where they see ‘no other way’ and forecast doom and destruction at every turn I see there are ‘many different ways’ and generally more positive ways as well.

When we were in an EEC with 12 other similar nations it worked well because it was a trading based organisation with light touch regulation that saw no need for flags, anthems and all the other garbage. Its why I voted to Remain in the EEC in 1975 and would that it had stayed just that.

However that is NOT what we have with the EU and its intention to subsume the Nation States into on amorphous United States of Europe which was forced onto the British people by Tony Blair and Gordon Brown previously enabled by John Major – The very people telling us now how we are stupid, uneducated, wrong and that we must be corrected with a 2nd Vote. Democracy didn’t suit them 20+ years ago did it?

I was never asked about the EU despite Blair promising a referendum twice and when I was 20+ years later having seen what it had, and would, become I said ‘No Thanks’.

Naaaa, that’s the Ruski carrier… 😀

Sorry, cheap shot…

Daniele, dont apologise

It is people like us who are keeping people accountable. I will continue to remind people that the term T31 came from the think Defence site, so clearly these sites are being monitored.

I make a living out of fixing broken programmes and have done now for 20 years.

Often it is the lack of clarity, design by committee and importantly lack of ownership that are at the core of failure. The first thing I do is make some big decisions and set the tone for the rest of it.

You can tell the MOD is in dire straits, as what other organisation would even think of getting rid or reducing its premium asset (the RM), it just doesn’t make sense in any way, shape of form.

Unfortunately the whole system is corrupt, but we must continue to fight for the re-instatement of capability gaps (not accept it as a long term reduction) and for the best equipment for those who do serve to ensure that lives are not lost needlessly.

In that we share far more than what we occassionally disagree upon as do most who post and offer opinion on this and other sites.

Want a job in the MoD!?

Not at all

Whenever I have gone for a job in the public service side, I dont get it, which is probably for the best as I think they want a certain type of person…

Would be nice to think that some of the bastards would put country before party!

Don’t forget, the new leader of the house believes half the foreign aid budget should be spent on defence £7 Billion. So we have one member of the government applying a modicum of common sense!

It would be nice to think that ‘cool calm heads’ are working on a solution….the ‘men from the ministry’. I suspect that most are off on their holidays whilst a handful run around squawking like chickens with their fanny feathers on fire!

It’s probably just the janitorial staff! 😀

More: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-iran-usa-europe/u-s-sees-european-maritime-security-effort-in-gulf-as-complementary-idUSKCN1UJ23D

Cheers!