The Ministry of Defence has for the first time officially confirmed that Type 26 frigate build slots currently allocated to the Royal Navy are being assessed for potential transfer to Norway, as part of wider efforts to align future anti-submarine warfare capability across NATO’s northern flank.
In a written answer to Conservative MP Mark Francois, Defence Minister Luke Pollard said the UK was “working together with our Norwegian Partners” and “assessing options for offering Type 26 build slots currently allocated to the Royal Navy to the Royal Norwegian Navy.”
While the possibility of Norway securing access to UK Type 26 production capacity has long been widely discussed across defence industry circles, this marks the first direct confirmation from the government that such an approach is being actively examined. Pollard added that the Royal Navy’s programme would not be reduced, stating: “The Royal Navy will receive all eight Type 26 ships during the late 2020s and 2030s as planned.”
He described the potential outcome as the creation of a combined Anglo-Norwegian frigate force, stating: “Norway’s biggest ever defence procurement deal will see a combined fleet of 13 Anti-Submarine Warfare frigates, eight British and at least five Norwegian, operate jointly in Northern Europe, significantly strengthening NATO’s northern flank.”
In a separate written answer, Pollard said the Type 26 programme remained on schedule, noting: “The T26 programme remains on track to meet all user requirements and deliver eight world-class anti-submarine warfare frigates to replace the anti-submarine warfare T23s.”
He also linked the programme directly to cooperation with Norway, adding: “All ships are expected to enter service from the late 2020s with the added advantage of working alongside up to six identical Royal Norwegian Navy vessels.”
The minister said the Type 26 would support UK and allied operations in the North Atlantic, describing the ships as a key capability for NATO and the Joint Expeditionary Force. “Type 26 Frigates will allow the Royal Navy to continue to play a leading role in the anti-submarine theatre of the North Atlantic,” he said, “providing a crucial output to both NATO and the Joint Expeditionary Force.”
In December, we reported that BAE Systems had powered up HMS Glasgow for the first time, enabling the first-in-class frigate to generate its own electricity using onboard diesel generators. The generators form part of the Type 26’s hybrid propulsion architecture and are designed to support the class’s low acoustic signature, a central requirement for anti-submarine warfare operations.
HMS Glasgow is the first of the Type 26 Global Combat Ship class, with the wider programme expected to replace the Royal Navy’s ageing Type 23 anti-submarine warfare frigates through the late 2020s and 2030s.
Stupid beyond belief. We are run by cretins.
HMG of this flavour have their ideology and priorities, and no matter how much they claim to the contrary the evidence is there, industry over military need every single time.
I’m waiting for the usual “the RN continues to meet ALL of its commitments….”
Stupid? do you know how winning naval contracts work?
Facts, how dare you. OUTRAGE is the only thing that matters
In what way is this stupid, both the French and Italians open up slots on their production runs, the Italians do it with the FREMM and the French are doing it with the FDI frigate. When a foreign country wants to buy a frigate, its sold straight off the production line and the French and Italians then order another for their respective navies and most people say its fine, but when the UK does it ??? everyone loses their tiny little friggin minds
Apparently there was a lot of moaning in the French Military media about the 2 FDI’s destined for the MN being sold to the Greeks.
Ha ha ha – well said that man – don’t let the facts and truths get in the way of a bl**dy good whinge ! I’ve seen Pollard at work and he’s a very good man 👍
Stupid because we are at an appalling, dangerous, treasonous low in frigate numbers, with the few remaining(6 or 7?) highly likely to be found too worn out long before we get they replaced. The world is extremely dangeous today. Now is the time we really need most a good sized fleet to deter enemies who are running wild, yet we have a fleet drastically too small for the most benign peacetime. No extra frigates have been ordered & this sale to Norway delays even further the plan to regenerate our frigate fleet which ihas failed so miserably to deliver anywhere near the time needed.
Let’s face it we might as give up having a military at this point. You think tempest will every fly. Pigs might.
The problem is the Italians have in law that the government must keep on ordering new warships at a high tempo…essentially the Italian government bankrolls and guarantees a build on risk policy..
Since 2008 the Italian government has laid down 14 FREMs four of which it sold either as they were being built or second hand. And 7 PPAs ( with 2 more ordered) 2 of which it has sold as they were commissioned…
So the Reason Italy could flog 6 frigates off its lines was because it has built or is building 23 of them…
Ordinarily I would agree. However, by the end of this year, the RN will have 6 very aged frigates maximum in the fleet. Even with normal availability, that means a surge availability of likely 4 frigates. That is ignoring the real risk that other hulls will need to be retired earlier than the current schedule. With the build delays on T26 and T31 already, I think we need drastic action to rebuild numbers. Whilst this is really about accelerating build times, removing hulls from the schedule really does not help. The export order is great for UK shipbuilding, but we need to recognise we are in a bit of mess. Selling T26 to Norway may be upside we really cannot afford.
“At Least 5, Up to 5, maybe now just 3”
Norway seems to be suffering from the same dithering as the UK.
T31 was “At least 5” for a long period, then came T32 which again was up to or at least 5, Bloody heck init !
Because they are rightly prioritising two extra submarines.
Cutting their frigate fleet down to 3 leaves them pretty limited in what they can do on the surface.
I agree, it gives them one blue-water combatant deployable at any one time. It’s not a great move, though I also think the submarine increase is a good idea.
I am misunderstanding this? Is this a pisstake ? Where’s the news that Norway may reduce its T26s down to 3 coming from? It’s procuring 2 more 212CD subs which shouldn’t affect their T26s. Good on them. If they ever did reduce maybe the RN could get them. That’ll do us nicely. Some 212CDs too. LOL
It’s been reported in Norwegian media, and this site also reported it. I believe it stems from a Norwegian government source, that said the option is being considered.
The RN might get them, but only if they’re already under construction, which they won’t be till the late 2020s/early 2030s. So, unless the Norwegians decide the wait till then to cancel the last two ships, I don’t think we’ll see an increase.
The Norwegian Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Støre has proposed significant increases in defence spending, which includes, in part, cutting, restricting, or reallocating funds from other budget areas to finance the extra spending for defence
Thanks Leh, I wasn’t totally awake when I read these posts. Well maybe there’s a chance here for the UK to add 1-2 ASW T26s or even go for 1-2 more AAW enhanced orientated T26s? Or, give NZ or Denmark a call?
I completely missed seeing the other earlier article on this. I’m only part-time on this site compared to many other more dedicated posters.
NZ would either go for the Mogami or Arrowhead 140, the Denmark and/or Sweden would likewise go for the Arrowhead 140
or the FDI, I forgot to mention that
There’s a coalition government that in UK terms is the green party, the lib dems and Labour. Its fractious and they found very hard to pass a budget.
“It’s procuring 2 more 212CD subs which shouldn’t affect their T26s”
Except where is the money for the Subs coming from?
The Norwegian Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Støre has proposed significant increases in defence spending, which includes, in part, cutting, restricting, or reallocating funds from other budget areas to finance the extra spending for defence
A proposal is just that: A proposal. It’s not what’s going to happen. If his proposal doesn’t pass then Norway has a choice between SSK’s and FFG’s.
I thought Norway was flush with funds? I haven’t seen any of this news down here in Aus so I’m coming to all this a bit late.
They are wealthy but small.. think New Zealand.. they only have a population of 5 million and there GDP is about .5 billion.. so well of but to small to actually have a lot of money… when it comes to military power size of population and total gdp matter.
Yup, as Jonathan said, having 5 million people each with a 1,000 quid means you are well off, but your total cash will still be less 65 million with 100£ each. And if your buying stuff like Frigates that cost a lot of money, your total cash does actually matter.
Would be disappointed with three but four might work giving a combined total of twelve ( obviously ) . Then add their six SSK to our seven SSN and it’s begining to look like a viable force . For me the priority for the RN should be too add at least three to the T31 build but all fitted out with MK 41 , this should go some way to restoring our presence in the Gulf with the Pacific being.a nice to have but not essential at the present time IMHO and is in ant event nicely covered by our three yearly deployment of CSG.
It’s more the wording !
“Up to”
“At least”
“Looking at”
you know, the sort of words the UK uses when trying to put positive spin on things.
Just like the “Up to” 12 SSN’s the RN are getting.
“Cream First, Jam second” please.
No Surprise what’s so ever. 🙄
Reading the response from officials is painful.
Why are people in the comments shocked. We knew this from day 1 because the contract said Norway will receive the first by 2029. Meaning build slot 3 or 4 will go to them.
Exactly
I’m pleased at the confirmation that the government isn’t using it as an excuse to lower the RN’s complement.
The way things are going I wouldnt be surprised at all if our order was reduced too. We have that sort of Government. The sort you love to hate.
True, but this announcement makes that just a little bit harder.
👍
Umm…er…umm…Norway announces a possible reduction in number of T-26s to be acquired, while HMG reiterates a combined programme of thirteen vessels. Something does not quite compute; it must be the New Math. Covert plan to sell any excess T-26s to the Colonials, once USN modded security cutter scheme founders and sinks beneath the NA waves? 🤔😉😁
Being cynical I suspect the US wants as many cheap frigate lookalike warships as it can get to boost perceived overall numbers while saving real money to spend on more visually imposing ships with or without the bang for buck such ships should boast. All about selling the lethality of the fleet to the World and US public. An expensive frigate like the T-26 doesn’t fit that brief, even the reworked Fremm didn’t, so mixed capability it is I reckon to try to square the circle of numbers and capability, just not in the same ships. The voter base won’t notice the deception.
You expect them just say they’re now building 12 because of some rumored proposal? Of course they say it’s 13 ships because that’s what’s announced and contracted at the moment.
Excess T26s? Why not into the RN? Or, I think NZ needs 2.
NZ will very likely look for Mogamis or Type 31s. They don’t need something of this size or capability.
Brazil, on the other hand, did express interest in a Type 26 sale a while back. Getting two without having to wait for the 13 British and Norwegian ships to be produced could be appealing.
Brazil will be getting 2 of the 8, when the next Conservative Government reduces that to 6 in service !!
Wrong party Shipmate – that’s the modus operandi of New Labour circa 1997 and the Type 45 order : 12 down to 6.
Must be excessively strong dope you’re on if you believe there’s going to be a Conservative government at the next election?!? 😂
If Reform gets in, it’ll be a Conservative government by proxy. Those voting for Reform who believe they are voting for change, are being mislead.
NZ may actually like something like the T26, if its at a good price, more useful and capable and has good level of NZ input and early as delivery timelines. The RAN is still getting its 6 Hunter class based on the T26s. But you’re probably right, Mogami, then T31, T26 distant third.
Hadn’t thought of Brazil. Or what about Chile?
The UK and Chile maintain close naval ties and Chile is going to modernise its fleet, the plan is to replace its current frigates with up to 8 new vessels, the type 31 frigate is being evaluated as an option
No, it’s Mogami or A140. NZ needs at least 3 frigates & if it buys T26, it’s likely to only end up with one. T31 is a non starter for anyone with half a brain. NZ has no other frigates. Whatever they buy has to do everything. Even second hand T31 would not be worth it (no matter what you do to it, you are hampered by what was not done to it at the build stage – there is FFBNW & NFF).
How is this being considered? We have the most urgent need to replace our ships. Govt. must accelerate the production of these ships.
It’s being considered because that was the agreed terms of contract when the U.K. and Norway signed off on the deal, it’s not news that one of the current builds would have to go to the, to meet their schedule. As for speeding things up, given the state of the 23s if that was possible it would have already been done.
It absolutely is news to most people. I think most, myself included, have known this was the plan for some time but public confirmation is important.
Agreed and also the fact that he has gone on record to confirm the RN will get all eight.
The question isn’t, is one of the in-build frigates going to Norway? We knew that. The questions are: which frigate, and what will the new schedule be for the delivery of subsequent frigates to both countries? How are the RN supposed to plan crewing properly, and will the uncertainty be used as an excuse to barely plan at all? Will we see even the final few T23s axed earlier than necessary to reserve crew for ships in the pipeline, when those ships end up going to Norway?
I agree. I get the wider industrial benefits but oh boy, yet again the military go without as wider industry is prioritised.
Has HMG indicated the RN might get extra assets as a result of the economic benefits?
Nope.
6 Frigates left.
There’s this called money. Norway buying the ships means that more money is paid taxes. That actually means the military can buy things. Its not the needs of industry is the need to pay for things.
Yes Ron, that has been detailed here many times, increased tax receipts.
And when has that resulted in extra purchases of kit for the British military over the last 30 years? Any specific examples?
We all know MoD is far down the priority list.
‘Has HMG indicated the RN might get extra assets as a result of the economic benefits?’
That’s all well and good, but I have a cohort of angry middle management and above fellows from BAE who just need their bonuses, just absolutely could not go without them. Have a heart, how could you deny them their fiscal kickbacks? After all, we’ve hardly allowed them to make any profit in recent years, have we?
It’s all woke nowadays. Take me back to a time when people cared about the impacts on the salaries and bonuses of company executives…
Very difficult to pay for defence without money.
Don’t wave those red flags at me!
As I said to Ron, can you name any examples of a bulk purchase by HMG which resulted in economies of scale and more kit ordered elsewhere?
We seem to be lacking in kit if late, HMG keep delaying buying much!
I get the logic, where is the extra tax take running to the MoD? It goes on net zero and welfare.
Sorry Daniele but it’s Chicken and Egg, you can’t have one without the other unless you go and just buy your egg from some one else and they get to spend your money on what they want.
You are actually sounding like Ed Milibrain (Sorry 😩), it’s his sort of logic.
I want Green Energy and hate Fossil Fuels, but I know we have to have fossil fuels for the next 20/30 years. But I just hate fossil fuels so much that I will not sanction producing our own even though we have plenty under our feet.
No I’ll destroy the Fossil fuel industry and spend a fortune buying it from overseas and destroy my own economy due to the price of energy, then when folks complain I’ll jack their Taxes up, subsidise their bills and hope they don’t notice.
Defence isn’t the U.K against the world anymore, its about partners and them being beside us, if selling a RN to Norway helps us to afford more of our own and has has zero actual negative effect on overall capability or well that’s good in my book.
It’s still the exact number of T26 in exactly the same water, doing exactly the same job but Norway mans them and pays for them, and we still get our eight ships.
The bloody stupid thing is Norway actually funds its maintenance better than we do and have a higher availability as a result, so chances are they will have more of their 5 at sea than we will with 8 (no spares so just store rob).
As for Norway you couldn’t want a better ally (go ask a Royal Marine), you might just want to look up the History of the Norwegian Navy in WW2. They left their own country to fight alongside us against the Nazis. They had virtually no ships to start off with so we loaned them some of ours (many brand new). They started with just 500 men, but due to the Shetland express that grew to over 7,500 by end of the war, they lost over 40 vessels and @1000 men and every single one was lost in the Atlantic, North Sea, Channel and Western Approaches.
The only reason we are going without is nothing to do with industry it’s because of 50 years of Government incompetence and just not caring, we are going without because the mornings didn’t order any bloody ships to replace the T23 before they are clapped out.
As for business well Norway is paying more for 5 ships than we are for 8, the extra money lowers the overall cost of ours. So what do you suggest ? Say no, keep your money, go buy some French ships instead ! That way instead of 13 identical ships hunting Russian subs we just stick to our 8 and whatever Norway buys, which will not be as effective as we build the best ASW frigates in the West.
Thought I’d get a few bites here as the UKIJ rather than the UKDJ rears it’s head again 😉
Well there you go, I prioritise our military over other nations militaries, sorry regardless of industrial benefits.
6 ships left, but we can wait a little longer as Norway will do it, it’s all the same. No. Not goid enough.
A few exaggerations there mate? Destroy an industry? What with 8 or 11 or 13 T26s being built and HMGs next excuse, the optimally manned smaller classes of ships on the horizon?
Plus FSS, plus MROSS plus MRSS, plus T83.
Plenty of profits still coming there to BAES, and work, for a long time.
As for Fossil fuels and Green energy, I support having both, not relevant to the fact the RN, due to politics, gives up slots to another navy.
And affording more??? Mate, so after the T26 build of however many ships because we gave slots to Norway HMG will order more as they’ll be cheaper due to economies of scale. Right…..I have a bridge to sell you.
And if they don’t? HMG have other priorities as you yourself point out, they order next to sod all.
This pantomime is paying out down at Yeovil as well. We could have had 60 BH a few years ago.
Currently zero, and all the flack HMG are getting is about the factory possibly closing.
The RAF with no medium heli? Of no concern.
Standard.
Selling the T26 to Norway makes, financial, industrial and overall strategic maritime sense and any temporary downsides are minuscule compared to those our own Governments have inflicted on us. It also effectively locks HMG into those 8 RN T26 as the any cuts in numbers effects the economy of scale and hence the cost Norway pays.
The reason for bringing in the Green / Fossil fuel stupidity into my post was twofold and it has a massive effect on why we are incapable of increasing Defence spending.
Firstly Irony. As a country we have allowed HMG’s over the last 2 decades to effectively annihilate our own Gas and Oil industry (pop up to Aberdeen if you don’t believe me) so we now import most our Energy from abroad and primarily from Norway. They are effectively buying our T26’s with the profits they make out of those exports. How ironic is that ?
Secondly Politically motivated Endemic Economic Suicide. Right now we have very little financial wiggle room to fund a realistic increase in Defence without cutting something else (and yes I can name dozens of ways to do that) but unfortunately the voters elected this Government.
Probably the biggest underlying reasons for that is that last year we spent £117 Billion on energy imports, which is the prime reason our National debt went up by £111 Billion in the same period and we pay interest on that for every year afterwards unless we pay it off.
So why can’t we buy any kit ? Simple we have decided that importing Oil / Gas at vast expense is morally better than using our own and if that means we can’t pay for Defence well that’s just tough.
If you want to fund proper Defence deal with that and you can afford it.
I think that may have been the best description of edd milibands energy policy ever…
Thanks it’s just plain nuts and we swallow it !
Last year we spent £117 Billion on imported Gas and Oil.
In the same period our National debt went up by roughly the same amount.
You will never, ever hear that in little nugget discussed anywhere !
I actually want us to go Green, but you need an economy to fund it and do it in a long term structured way, so why not get on the Gravy Train and fund it by using our own resources.
Im in complete agreement, I’m not a climate change denier in any way ( I studied environmental science for my first degree). But what they are doing at present ignores some vital reality.. we are burning hydro carbons and getting them from abroad is a bit bonkers in the end and costs a fortune
But we do need to make some structural changes and to be honest be a bit more like Norway.. Norway is fanatical about reducing its own hydrocarbon burning while at the same time is still maximising its hydrocarbon revenues, which allows it to be bonkers about reducing its own hydrocarbon burning…
I think we need to understand that the only power we have is to transition our own economy.. not force others to transition by cutting our noses off and refusing to sell something.. everyone else is still willing and happy to produce..
In a more practical sense it’s my belief the world is essentially fucked, the US, china and emerging economies are not going to stop burning hydrocarbons like there is no tomorrow.. but the world is a funny place in that when we do hit 4-6 degrees increase in temp the US,china and those emerging economies will be utterly screwed and become pretty unliveable and their nations will collapse in food and water poverty at which point they will stop burning hydro carbons.. it will be the northern and southern fringes that will be liveable and fine.so nations like the UK and Norway..
Therefore what we should be doing is making sure our nation is in the best possible place to ride out and survive what is an inevitable collapse in the global order and our present international systems of trade etc as many nations essentially become unviable and food/ water dependent…. For that we need lots of money and may as well sell the crap our hydrocarbons and let the rest of the world screw itself, because it will do so with our without us..and if we are going to survive we need the money to create a robust society…
The problem with people like Edd milliband is they are internationalists and there is no place in the coming world for internationalism.. we have missed that boat and in reality the human mind does not allow it as the vast bulk of our drives are non intellect survival based behaviours.
Agree with all in ful in full, Norway is an excellent allie as indeed are the Danes and both have stood beside us in the darkest times. I can testify to that having served alongside both in Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq as well as on exercise many a time usually uo.in the North, where they excel Arcade Fusion and Arcade Guard being a case in point. People seem to overlook that we also operate a pretty much a joint P8 force with Norway and soon to be joined by the Danes and not overlooking USN either. Hopefully there will be a handful of RN types on attachment on the Norwegian T26 and Norwegian matelots on ours. Alliances always work better IMHO when serving directly alongside each other and face to face.
Excuse the typo errors above, was using my phone and on a moving train but you get the general idea .
To be honest I think the way forward for the Uk is to look more and more at a Scandinavian defence alliance.. Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland…
It’s makes sense from a cultural point of view, we have the same basic cultural values of independence, mellowed with an understanding of the need for a conservative but supportive society ( that drinks a lot).
Geostrategically we are able to support each other and dominate a key geostrategic area, that ensures we are not encircled.
Finally.. climate change is going to screw most of the world ( southern Europe, Africa, Southern Asia, the U.S northern and central South America)… but the northern European nations are going to be some of the best bits of the planet in 50-100 years time and we are going to need to work together to defend it.
We all knew Hms Belfast (ship 3) was always heading to Norway and possibly Birmingham (ship 4).
No real surprise to be honest
I’m not sure if we do know whether it’s ship three or four. I can’t see it being both.
I have heard from employees that it may well both but defo at least one of them
There has to be a limit to the damage British governments are willing to inflict on the RN.
There isn’t. Nor the British Army, or the RAF. Which is why I won’t vote for any of them.
This was the plan from the start though
Being told prepare for war with Russia is a joke when you read this article,they take long enough to build now.
Their argument will be that the same ships will fight the same enemy. Which is true. But it is a dereliction of duty all the same as industry should never take priority over your military, made worse that we once had an escort force of 35, then 32, then 31, then 27, then 23, then 19, now only 12.
All cuts taken by both Labour and Tories since 1997 that I can detail if needed.
As you know, I totally agree mate…
Any delay in the RN getting the full allocation of T26 (8 already below the minimum 12 required) will lead to a catastrophic loss of UK ASW capability in the 2030 to 2035 period.
The only hope I see now is this government calling a general election and getting gone.
We now desperately need 3.5% on defence, Labour will do and are doing, absolutely nothing, but watching the bare bones we have left crumble to dust.
There might be worse yet. My fear is the left of the Labour Party taking over, and
Goodnight Defence.
Boris Johnson finally fell because he ate some cake. What does Starmer have to do?
I have always said this.. I think it’s great we are selling to Norway, but unlike Italy which was clever we did not simply build baby build and now our surface fleet is in the process of collapse..
As I have pointed out many times..no type 23 has survived beyond its 6 year post lifex refit.. and if that continues ( and if I has constantly happened then it will keep happening) we will have zero type 23s by 2030.
To sell of the production line you must have produced a production line that allows you to sell.. Italy simply never stops building frigates.. so it can happily flog them directly from the line..
To be honest I think the only think the UK can really do now is maximise the build rates of type 26 and type 31s ( which means placing orders ) that will allow BAE and barrow to keep throwing money at the ship yards. Ensure the Type 31 has an ASW capability ( and it could do this with a light weight thin line towed array) and turn the rivers 2 into a patrol frigate.. the rivers 2s are 90meter 2000 ton vessels, you could turn them into patrol frigates. 57mm, CAMM and a 3D radar ( the RN has gone to war in far worse in the past).
This was always on the cards and is something our neighbouring countries have done to secure foreign sales of their frigates. Customers don’t want to wait 10-15 years for a warship.
I’m comfortable with some of the type 26 frigates going to Norway if that means 5 ships are sold to Norway.
This isn’t necessarily a disaster for the RN if they end up with at least 8 type 26s. I’m hopeful for more, the offset and means to ensure resilience for the RN is to order a revised type 31 batch 2 and get 5 more type 31s with the second batch fitted for ASW warfare, so bow and towed sonar arrays, torpedo defence system (the Italian fremm frigate system is superb) and get them ordered and built pronto…oh wait that does mean HMG will need to publish the much delayed DIP.
I doubt we will see more frigates in the DIP, lets be honest.
Though, this should put to bed the whole ‘they might cancel the last few frigates to save money’ narrative. I’m actually surprised he committed to 8 for the RN, rather than just going ‘But muh DIP’.
Because of sensitivities over shipbuilding and Scottish politics. There are always exceptions politically.
The later T26s might even be improvements on the earlier ships. Wonder if they’ll ever be tempted to remove the CAMM farms and go with ExLS or an additional mk41?
If you look at the RN website.. it’s essentially always implied ExLs on the type 26s it basically states the city class with have 12 vertical launch cells for CAMM ( as well as 24 MK41s) with each cell taking 4 CAMM for a total of 48 CAMM.( that can only mean ExLS) . now most people say “but the RN website is inaccurate sometimes “ .. maybe but it’s been up there for a few years now and I’m pretty sure if it was total BS the RN would have taken it down… and there is no other “ official publication that states what launchers the 48 CAMM will be in.. also we now know from the T31 the 6 CAMM farms take a lot of deck space and I am not sure how you would fit 8 farms on the ships as that is a lot of deck space.
We know Glasgow will have the ‘mushroom farm’ because of the images taken during construction, showing the cutouts for four 6-cell modules in the bow.
“Customers don’t want to wait 10-15 years for a warship.” That’s a bit rich when HMG is making the RN wait 15 years & then some for T23 replacements. We’re playing Russian roulette with 3 bullets in the 6 shooter! We’ve crashed fleet numbers of escorts so long & so far we’ll pay for the madness in lives & gifting our enemies an extremely weak RN.
Alternating ship builds for Norway and Uk makes good sense . Especially to keep an export customer happy. Norwegian frigstes will be constantly assisting uk and doing same role as uk so a win win for both nations. I am certain since the uk unlikely to expand ship building capacity anytime soon , that the uk should place an order abroad for a build of at least 3 new frigates preferably 6 . This would get uk frigate numbers back on teack . Lack of sailors is a red herring , and excuse not yo have ships. Indonesia and Poland alreasy building T31. And Skorea and Japan seem very efficient ship builders with good off the shelf frigate destroyers. I say do what Austrslia and Norway are doung and get the UK to place a one off order abroad of 3 to 6 frigates while uk shiobuilding catches up . Then once we reach criticsl mass uk shio building should be able to produce at least 2 frigste or destroyers a year for longterm
No? The government will not order warships from abroad, espeically when we are producing them at home, even if they are late. And we can hardly keep up 2 escorts a year longterm, T83 may well be pushed back.
Pushing back the Type 83 might actually be a good idea at this point. 2038 is a fantasy, and the current destroyers have plenty of time left, given how little they’ve been used. 2040-41 seems more reasonable.
And leave the factory with no work for years? Has ended so well before.
We are talking about pushing T83 back because of extra ships in the factory’s pipeline, aren’t we?
Well the idea is to get all the T26s done as close to 2035 as possible.
Ordinarily it m8ght seem like it makes sense, but at this point it doesn’t. The RN is on its knees due to longs delays by successive goverments in procuring new vessels, with existing assets dropping like flies with new vessels being built at an incredibly glacial pace by BAE and Babcock. We only have one Type 31 in the water and only 2 Type 26s. I would expect the second Type 31 and third Type 26 to have been in the water by now.. Defence of the realm is the priority here. The third 26 must go to the RN and the fourth possibly to Norway providing BAE can get its finger out with following hulls.
In the NATO context it arguably doesn’t matter whether available escorts are British or Norwegian. If we need escorts for non-NATO operations, e.g. Falklands scenario, then it obviously does matter. I would have thought a competent Defence Secretary would be doing everything within his power to prevent the number of escorts available to RN from dropping even further. But clearly this isn’t something that concerns him at all.
If we want this contract then we have to play fair.
And 8 becomes 5….
No, it doesnt, do you have any idea how exports work?
You are very naive.
These 3 builds sold to Norway from the UK build will be pushed up the road and not reordered.
Read the room – read the spin – Norwegian ships are being counted into our total as they are covering the same threat.
The secretary literally stated the Royal Navy will receive its 8 ships, you’re just an American simp who likes to doom on everyone else.
😁😂😂
Absolutely ridiculous but inevitable with this stinking government.
You’ve no idea how to win a naval contract do you? They’re not going to wait 10 years for their first ship
Let’s sacrifice our naval defence! Are you for real? This year frigate hulls will be down to 6.
I suggest this government pulls its fingers out and let’s Babcock build at a decent pace. Why should the Royal Navy wait 10 years or more?
It seem you have no idea about the state of defence in this country.
I know exactly the situation we’re in, but ditching the Norwegians will not get us our ships any faster, the last T26 won’t be in service till at least 2035
Oh really! These slots were not built into the program, of course there will be a delay to the Royal Navy especially at the glacial pace these hulls are coming off the slipway.
Or the injection of cash will Norway will increase the rate of construction to meet RN deadlines and deliver exports.
Ah the doomerism is out and about again.
This isn’t a cut, it’s part of the deal that got us the Norwegian Order. They get an early hull, we add a hull onto the end of the order.
You may be right Dern but the answer might be in the word “slots”
Not sure what you’re getting at here. A build slot is just the space in the schedule taken up by a ship during construction.
It’s the plural ie slots. So if the RN build were all going to be ready by 2032 for example a slot for Norway might put back an RN entry by a year or so but what if Norway is given tnree slots? It could mean the final RN ships don’t get completred until 2035/36. I Know it might not happen. I’m just making the point that it says slots (plural) in the governments comments.
The final RN ship was always intended for 2035-36.
If that’s right it now means that it will be even later which is hardly good news for the R.N. trying to survive with seven clapped out T23’s.
Slots is literally just the queue dude.
“Dude” lol.
I love It when that word turns up on here !
I do know what it means me ansome as we say in my part of the world but just have a look at my reply above?
I mean of course Norway is going to get three slots if they are ordering three frigates. They might even get five if they order all five. And yes it means the last RN ship doesn’t get floated off until later, but that’s the price of doing buisness.
The French and Italians do it all the time with their Fremm and FDI frigates, so why cant the UK do it with the type 26??
Well we can except the French and Italians have 8-10 modern frigates already.
The French and Italians on the other hand are a bit less flush with Destroyers.
True but they’re getting good availability out of the ones they have, and some of their frigates can do area air defence
Yes but I was talking more about hulls rather than specific jobs. After all the AAW FREMMS aren’t ASW platforms so you can’t double count them.
Pretty sur the Fremm DA still have their sonar system
I think only their Hull Sonars though, not the towed sonar array.
The problem here Dern, is our ASW frigate capability is litteraly turning into Turkish scrap yard steel before our eyes, already too few ordered, far too late.
This will now lead to an inevitable gap, now ‘mind the gap’ is basically UK defence policy these days, but this is extremely dangerous.
This government (as per the previous) run a defence policy designed to feed the domestic defence industrial base first and actually defend the country second.
The tail is wagging the dog so fast its litteraly going to take off like a helicopter one of these days….
Your third paragraph. Exactly this.
So few here see it.
Helicopter? Like the RAF medium ones that no longer exist.
As I said in my other reply to you, by the time the 3rd Type 26 is due to enter service the RN will already have 6-7 modern Frigates off the production lines, so even if every single Type 23 is retired by then the gap will be no larger than it is now, and hull number 4 won’t be far behind.
The hull at the end of the order is a figment of your imagination. It will never get built.
Calm your tits. We’ve signed on the dotted line for 8, placed the order. Norway is ordering at least 3. In the real world it’s simply a matter of which ships get build in which order. Nothing to “tag onto the end”.
The MOD has not placed an order for the last 4 haveing no long-lead items ordered. Names have been allocate with penant numbers. At the glacial rate the hulls are coming off the slip way the Royal Navy will be down to 4 frigates.
By the way there is no need to be rude.
“Figment of your imagination” “Are you really that neive [sic]”. Wanna chat shit like that? Don’t cry when someone is rude back to you. Either be polite or get a grip when someone throws your energy back at you.
Also amazing how the MOD has managed to cut steel and start building the hull of HMS Sheffield (hull number 5) and HMS Newcastle (hull number 6) without placing an order.
Oh and by the way, the orders are for a 1st Batch of 3 and a second batch of 5, not 4 and 4. So that’s Birmingham, Sheffield and Newcastle, all apparently “not ordered” yet all under construction. Jog on.
Pipe down will you, I’m sick of people like you polishing polishing the perverbial turd and then loose it when someone questions your input. Either put up with it or don’t contribute at all.
So I point out the truth of the situation and you tell me to pipe down? Shut the fuck up you little prick. Try actually answering the points raised maybe and people wouldn’t talk down to you.
The only arrse wipe that has talked down to me is you.
Get real or get lost.
*Yawn* Oh you poor pathetic troll. I already refuted your argument. I understand it’s much easier to respond to me responding to your rudeness than deal with your argument being dismantled, but the only person not getting real here is you.
Reminder your responded to me, rudely. Every other conversation in this thread is perfectly amicable. So frankly, if you can’t deal with me pointing out that the orders are placed and several of the relevant ships are already in build then you need to get lost.
Trust me I’ve read the other threads.
You can’t help yourself conversing with me and if it’s making your head spin that’s fine by me.
Quite frankly you are a gutter snipe who is in self denial.
Goodbye you are beginning to bore me.
Again: you replied to my comment.
Meanwhile any response to me pointing out that the second batch of 5 Type 26’s have already been ordered and that three of them are already in build or are you going to keep throwing your little hissy fit?
No, but the MOD allocated funds for/ placed an order for the last 5 type 26 frigates, so there is that ??
Also the last 5 are one order and 3 of them are already under construction. Something Mark can’t seem to appreciate.
Are you really that nieve. These build slots were not part of the program and you will not see a hull tagged onto the end, it will get cut.
No I just know how to spell naive, how to use a single reply and how the contract actually works.
So you keep saying, just because you know how a contract works does not help the fact that this will impact the Royal Navy. You can’t polish a turd it’s still a turd.
So still no facts just a temper tantrum?
Yeah yeah, profits before the defence of the realm. You have made that abundantly clear.
There are profits of course. There is also production scale (the more being built the more economical it becomes). There is also strategic considerations. Sometimes it is to secure a relationship, sometimes it’s because a close ally asked. Norway is a close ally. Saying no is likely not going to go down well. But Norway is not stupid & they know the situation UK is in (they also know the situation their own navy is in). Japan actually offered to supply its very first Upgraded Mogami to Australia. Australia sensibly said no (first of class) & is taking either the 2nd or 3rd. Japan is looking to secure a strategic relationship that isn’t the US.
So still just a temper tantrum and no argument got it.
We will see what happens when the next two type 26 vessels get underway. To meet the UK target we needed to start one vessel every 18 months. To add in the Norwegian vessels with the same end date we need to start one every nine months from vessel 5.
I would guess that UK will get the first three vessels with all even vessels from four onwards going to Norway and odd ones to UK..
Putting a vessel through the Janet Harvey hall in 18 months is possible by putting together more compete parts before going into the hall, the question is really can the later cutout in dry dock be seeded up in the two docks currently in use or will it need a third dock.
This does not bode well for fleet numbers. We are barely keeping pace with ship retirements as it is.
Price of winning the contract.
Not a price with paying Vlad.
Well the RN will still get 8, no change there. It’s the impact on our 6 T23 left !
Both the French and Italians open up slots on their production runs, the Italians do it with the FREMM and the French are doing it with the FDI frigate. When a foreign country wants to buy a frigate, its sold straight off the production line and the French and Italians then order another for their respective navies and most people say its fine, but when the UK does it ??? everyone loses their tiny little friggin minds
I think the answer there is if you look at the French and Italian Escort force?
If the RN still had 20 Frigates, 16 T23 and 4 T22B3 no one would bat an eyelid. We have 6.
So the angst is understandable, as are the economic benefits.
The French and Italians have the yards to do that and the slots were built-in. Not so in the UK
I think the French have one main yard in Lorient for the design, construction, and assembly of major surface combatants, including the FREMM (Aquitaine-class) and the new FDI (Amiral Ronarc’h-class) frigates and Naval Group have other sites such as Nantes-Indret, that contribute to specialized components (e.g., machinery).
Other Shipyards: Chantiers de l’Atlantique in Saint-Nazaire builds logistic support ships and is responsible for designing and manufacturing the hull of the next-generation aircraft carrier, but primary frigate production is concentrated in Lorient
Cherbourg: Specializes in the construction of submarines.
Lorient: Focuses on surface ship construction, such as frigates.
Brest: Centers on maintenance, services, and naval base infrastructure.
Nantes-Indret: Specializes in propulsion systems for ships and submarines.
Toulon-Ollioules: Focuses on information systems, surveillance, and maintenance.
Ruelle-sur-Touvre: Produces submarine components, simulators, and weapons.
Saint-Tropez: Specializes in underwater weapons.
Interesting thank you.
Is any one really that surprised? MOD it will do what ever it can to ruin/weaken defence whilst releasing hot air statements, no change there state normal.
You dont understand the article do you?
So many people are just incredibly desperate to complain. It’s honestly like a mental health doctor’s waiting room in this comments section sometimes.
Go on enlighten me, delaying or swapping UK builds for Norway can not see how for the Royal Navy that is a good thing. Our escorts fleet is tiny and aging. We need the ships asp. Might make business sense but not defence sense.
Well we dont get business if we solely prioritize the navy, so thats the choice, Navy or business, keeps the shipyards open, brings down the construction costs.
So what happens when the current fleet of 6 clapped out T23 turn into razor blades Hugo and the T26 allocated to the RN are instead heading to Norway?
What do we do, just hope for best ?
How will this gap be filled, or is BAE Systems share price simply more important?
Its hardly BAEs share price, more like the longevity of our shipyards and the workers there.
So the dangerous gap is just tough luck?
This has nothing to do with workers jobs, plenty of work, its everything to do with selling frigates to Norway.
My point stands, the defence industrial base takes the lead over everything, our national security takes a back seat to corporate profits.
Does it stand? Youre acting like BAE is funneling money into ministers pockets.
That’s precisely what’s effectively happening Hugo, the defence industrial base calls the shots…
Calling the shots…. On a Contract that was heavily backed by the government to ensure an ally had capable vessels….
At this point you’re just a BAE hater
Not being funny but Hugo is right, this isn’t funnelling money into Corporate Profits, this is sensible and Industrial Planning unfortunately is a priority. Three to five extra Type 26’s build is massive security for the ship yards and the workers there, and means there is less pressure on having the next project ready to go as quickly.
I also question the “dangerous gap.” Type 26 #3 is due to enter service in mid 2030 at the moment. By that point there will be 2 Type 26’s in service and 4, possibly all 5 of the Type 31’s. Even if *all* the Type 23’s are withdrawn by then our Frigate force won’t have dropped below the current numbers by handing that hull over.
Yes, a relief, if those timeliness are kept.
T31 isn’t the issue Dern, the critical problem is the blink and you’ll miss it ASW cover.
As you know it was critical for our SSBN cover and now our undersea network.
We all know that 8 T26 is now totally inadequate for the task ( a pre cold war 2 number) and we need an additional 4 at least for the task.
So how are the government responding to this national security crisis??
They have zero intentions of ordering more and in fact now intend to slow down delivery.
The remaining T23 are really on their arse, we will be relying on allies to cover our SSBN deployments as it is, that situation is likely to become exponentially worse as a result of further slowing an already insufficient number under contract.
You mean the ASW Cover that will have 2 Type 26’s already in service and the T-23 ASW platforms projected to stay in service until 2035?
Especially since once the T-31’s are coming online the T-23’s and 26’s can once again focus on just ASW work.
Like, really, this is not the huge drama so many on this site are crying about.
Very much so!!! Priorities and profits dear boy! 😉😁
You don’t describe the MOD in which I work , not in any way at all.
That was meant for Martin : not you Daniel
Hello? I didn’t get any notification anyway, no worries.
Well serve in the Army and see how the MOD shafts you by not buying kit, buying crap kit, over spending and years late kit. The MOD is crap at what it does, sorry but when you rely on kit or need it, its make do and mend and keep quite about stuff not working or being short.
Could not run a hot bath, i have no faith in the MOD, not being insulting just honest. Name a project on time on budget? where the item worked as planed? then when you do buy stuff you want up grade it, so keep it going well past its best etc etc.
Lots of negativity, which I can understand. Winning the Norwegian contract is a positive, but the issue is the current state of the RN and the desperate need for new ships in service. If the RN wasn’t in such dire straits the Norway deal would be nothing but good news, but giving them slots 3 and/or 4, plus others, will mean we do not have sufficient escorts for quite some time.
A Navy Lookout article in November suggested it will be at least 2036 before we have 13 frigates again. It may well be later if Norway get more earlier T26 slots and Denmark get T31s, possibly 2040 if build rates are not increased. The jam is now the “hybrid navy”, but with little or no detail of what that capability that will bring and when.
The T23s are rapidly deteriorating.
As much as the Norwegian orders are economically desirable,
this just causes more delay to the RN rebuliding its fleet numbers .
Well were clearly not going to brush them off, unless we want to lose the contract.
I’m afraid you’re right Rob. Many are understandably jaundiced by the last 14 years of cuts (and the preceding 13 years of the same) and the slowness of getting the T26s, T31s, Astutes etc in the water.
But there is a failure to see that change is on the horizon. There is close to £14 bn in new money on the table but at least half the posters here say no there isn’t or it’s been spent on service pay or the Govt will renage on it or some other invented tale of doom. Similarly, defence spending rising from 2.34% to 2.5% over three years and to 3% in the next Parliament, again there are doom-laden prophecies from all sides, based on nothing very tangible or parry political dislike of the current government.
People just need to wait and see what the DIP proposes. It will not be great news, because there is nowhere near enough money on the table, but it will at least be 22% more than defence has at present. Slow steps to rearmament, but none of the main parties are going to raise taxes right now, and any that plan to cut welfare spending further are not going to be elected. So short of issuing defence bonds as a short-term fix, there isn’t going to be another pile of new defence money any time soon.
I have no problem with perhaps build 3 and 6 going to Norway, giving RN six out of the first 8. The Norwegian ships will be doing essentially the same job as the RN so there is no loss in capability. Build numbers 9 onwards can then be allocated between RN and RNN to take RN to 8 and RNN to 3-6 depending on their final order. We must also bear in mind that start of construction of the first T83 must follow seamlessly from the last T26 to keep the skilled workforce busy. At this stage we don’t know if this will be after 11 T26 are built or after 13 or even 14. Will we be ready to build T83 in time if only 11 T26 are ordered?
I take it all back , Starmer is on a clueless par with every other idiot who has crossed the threshold of No10.
Our even more clueless Chancellor won’t release the money to fill the home so medium lift Heli( at the lose of 100 skilled job as Leonardo closes their Yoevil factory, nope. Feet dragging on wedgetail , feet dragging on CH3.
Build slots handed to the Norwegians. No money for the missile and drone defence shield , cut back on cyber security funding. And worst of all he is refusing to sign onto the next stage of GCAP.
I swear if this country is attack Starmer and his cabinet should be arrested for treason .
It’s not ideal.. but in reality giving Norway the second T26 may not actually slow down the numbers coming into commission.. in the end the delay on Glasgow and speeding up of Cardiff means they are going to likely be over to the RN in the same year or close to the same year.. but the first boat always requires about 18 months of first in class second stage trials.. so in reality the RN does not want to be doing Cardiffs second stage trails, while Cardiff is still doing its first in class trials.. where as Cardiff will probably be arriving just after Glasgow finishes its first in class trials..
One thing we do forget is the massive burden that will be on the RN bring two frigate classes through first in class trials at the same time having probably 2 new frigates a year to do second stage trials on.. while they are probably still doing first in class trials.. the RN has not done that tempo of news ships for a long time.
Yes not an ideal position to be in and a result of decades of incompetence and delays by politicians!
The long term is a good result for a combined RN and Norwegian fleet and industry ship yards but short term pain with T23 disappearing quick hopefully bringing the crews onto the new ships may be quicker also with less t23 to speed up in service time scales get them up and running ASAP.