The UK is exploring greater defence collaboration with Joint Expeditionary Force (JEF) nations, including potential cooperation on procurement and development of military equipment, according to Armed Forces Minister Luke Pollard.
Speaking in the House of Commons, Jamie Stone MP (LD, Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) pressed the government on how it could deepen defence ties with JEF countries, which include Denmark, Finland, Estonia, Iceland, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden.
“Clearly we have a particularly good relationship with the countries that make up the joint expeditionary force,” Stone said.
“The Minister and I have completed the armed forces parliamentary scheme and were both plunged into the snowdrifts in Norway at Bardufoss. Some of the kit that the Norwegians had was particularly impressive, as I am sure the Minister would agree. Could I press him on what work we can do with the countries in the joint expeditionary force on procurement, design and perhaps development of equipment?”
Pollard confirmed that procurement collaboration with JEF partners is a key area of focus, pointing to existing shared platforms, including the P-8 Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft, F-35 fighter jets, and Type 26 frigates.
“The more procurement we can do with our allies, the better—not only in how interoperable the equipment will be but in its interchangeability,” he said.
“With P-8s, F-35s and potentially Type 26 frigates being shared by common nations in the High North, there is a huge opportunity to work together more closely, creating more jobs and more effective deterrents against Russian aggression.”
The Type 26 frigate, developed by BAE Systems, is already being adopted internationally, with the UK, Australia, and Canada selecting the platform as the basis for their future anti-submarine warfare capabilities. Greater integration with JEF partners could further enhance standardisation, logistical compatibility, and operational effectiveness.
The Type 26 is also one of the platforms under consideration for Norway’s new frigate programme, with BAE Systems shortlisted to provide the design for the Royal Norwegian Navy’s replacement for its ageing Fridtjof Nansen-class frigates. If selected, this would further strengthen the UK’s industrial and defence ties with Norway, a key JEF and NATO partner operating in the High North.
The UK say that it remains fully committed to the Joint Expeditionary Force, with Pollard confirming he had recently discussed the initiative during visits to Denmark, Latvia, Finland, Lithuania, and the Netherlands.
“I discussed the JEF on my visits to Denmark, Latvia, Finland, Lithuania and the Netherlands last month. I meet regularly with the JEF partners’ defence attachés, including last week,” he said.
The JEF is a UK-led, high-readiness multinational force that focuses on security in Northern Europe, particularly in the Baltic and High North.
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Damn shame we’re only getting 8 of these fine ships ourselves, I wonder what the chances are of us ordering more? Having only 8 towed array ships doesn’t seem anywhere near enough.
I suspect that towed-arrays will be considered for the T92 and T93
How else could you detect submarines across the entire North Atlantic?
The main question is whether we go for a very large number of small vessels carrying lightweight arrays or a smaller number of large vessels carrying CAPTAS-4 type full fat arrays.
My understanding is the longer term solution is more sensors of lower quality using AI algorithms to fuse the sensor picture. £1 billion + frigates with exquisite towed arrays wont last five minutes in a shooting war when SSN’s can target them from hundreds of miles away with satellites and hypersonic missiles.
I can see role for high end platforms like T26 with CAPTAS 4 but I can also see a role for fleets of type 92 no type 93 being guarded and serviced by a T32 style mother ship that can fly out drones etc for interception.
In the end the whole getting a kill chain on a ship from hundreds of miles away is still the realm of SF, ships are killed from within the radar horizon.
Not for long, we are now looking at low earth orbit constellations of SAR satellites that will provide real time continuous tracking of surface vessels and even Geo Stationary orbiting electro optical satellites that can put a permanent eye on something the size of a ship. These a capabilities are flying today.
Kill chains are out, kill webs are the new focus based on the concept of any sensor any shooter being used to prosecute a target.
In that scenario something like a T26 sitting in the middle of the North Atlantic is very vulnerable. A dozen UUV’s and USV’s monitored by a couple of T32’s and a P8 may be more survivable.
I think the T26 capability with CAPTAS 4 will be vital for guarding task forces where you can’t blanket and are close to home with large numbers of drones.
The question always is – what are you trying to achieve?
If you want a low end tug that cannot defend itself then maybe…
If you want a high end frigate that can sneak up on a sub, locate and destroy T26 is the answer.
Russian submarines are reasonable but they suffer from the tractor factory approach to making things. Russia just doesn’t have whole areas of precision tech. But its nuclear tech was always pretty reasonable mainly because they were prepared to take more risks than UK or US were.
Equally with the idea of a fused kill web the T26 could be plugged into the NATO kill web of seabed sensors and satellites.
T26 does have other uses too!
I’d be careful to avoid the [con]fused kill web….
@ supportive, to be honest I have always wondered if there was a place for a SURTASS like ship..2000 ton civilian built towed array tug..for work under UK air cover helping to sanitise for the Ballistic missile subs and keeping tabs on then north/Norwegian Sea.
CAPTAS-4 Compact means you can have “small vessels carrying lightweight arrays”.
I meant down to the size of 15m USVs carrying reels of SEA’s Krait array, which is very small indeed.
CAPTAS-4 Compact still needs a c.1000t vessel just to pull the tow through the water at a reasonable speed. Of course, a more specialised towing vessel could be smaller, but it’s not a lightweight system, just a more efficiently laid out version of a large one.
With more orders economy of scale should come into play so the price per ship should drop, let’s put in an order for an extra pair of ships, that will fill some of our capability gaps nicely.
If Norway goes for T26 then I would be surprised if we don’t order 1 or 2 extra for the RN. The R&D has been paid for, we will have an experienced workforce and a new facility. It will be the cheapest world class frigate we will ever get.
Highly unlikely. T83 will be hard to fit in already
More likely we’d get the ASW variant of the T31 as any Norwegian buy will delay in-service dates for our own T26s, whereas the initial T31 run will be complete in 2030 with nothing to follow. These would be cheaper than T26s (though pricier than B1 T31s).
Is Luke Pollard not over-playing the talk of “standardisation, logistical compatibility, and operational effectiveness” here? Granted, there’s much about the P-8s that is standard but Norway operate the F35A and we the F35B. Apparently, there’s only roughly 35% commonality between the two F35 types, is that right? I suppose, if an operational box-change was needed on the flight line then that’s an example of logistical compatibility, and operational effectiveness but, delve deeper into the jets and there’s probably a limit to how far that statement can go. As for the T26 argument, this assumes they buy some ….. with the same fit-out ….. a big assumption, is it not? Canada’s and Australia’s ships are probably almost completely different beasts with the various different RADAR and weapon systems being installed on each variant, are they not?
They’ll have to use the same fit if they want one from our construction line
Canada and Australia have different combat management systems and radar. Also, unlike the UK and Australia. Canada will have a Leonardo 127 mm gun. There is some significant kit that is common to all three though. Even if Norway selects the T26, Norway could select weapons not used by the other T26 navies. Norway would have three choices for radar and CMS currently being developed for Canada, Australia, and the UK. The build number is currently 29 assuming all governments honour their commitments. The latter sentence is questionable wrt Canada. Really can’t see 15 Rivers getting built.
I think the point is that Norway wants to share training up upgrade cycles with RN.
This gets the cost per ship down to sensible levels.
Small complex warship classes never make sense as the evolutionary costs are too high.
I don’t think Norway are as confused as Canada and Australia in that they are not trying to build an exquisite everything in a 7000 ton hull.. they want an ASW frigate that can defend itself in a high threat environment not an ASW and AAW frigate.
They can only get a radar which fits on our Masts, the other 2 require significant changes
Canada will definitely get the 15 ordered especially with our “new” relationship with the U.S. …. The problem is how unbelievably long the completion date for number 15 will be. The Canadian version is NOT at all similar to the RN or RAN version… it is much heavier and is also an air defence / tomahawk carrying beast.
I wonder if Canada is still happy working with LM …
I suspect he’s talking it up as a way of plugging our bid, and rightly so. We need to lay it on thick like the French government does (with good results)
The issue with other nations buying our designs, is they then properly arm them and make ours look a bit meh in capability
Their current frigates have 8 cell VLS. I think you’re getting ahead of yourself
The T-26 will be one of the most heavily armed frigates in the world. 72 total cells with 24 dedicated for strike, daul CIWS and capable of operating two helicopters. These ships are not lacking, others maybe but not these.
On Tuesday thyssenkrupp Marine Systems signed a LOI with the Ulstein Verft shipyard to build five or six F127 (aka MEKO A-400) frigates for the Norwegian navy.
They have put together a consortium to bid for the frigates. Nothing has been agreed or ordered by the Norwegian navy.
However, it seems the Norwegians consider industrial partnerships to be key and expect work to be carried out in Norway. The proposal is that the MEKO would be fitted out in Norway.
Not sure if that is possible with the T26, or if selling it to them is that desirable if it is.
It is fitout we would struggle with ramping up the most anyway.
So if Norway wants us to build the partly outfitted hulls and barge them to Norway then everyone is a winner.
So I see that as a very viable solution.
That would be very good indeed BAE can knock out and float a hull one hell if a lot quicker than they can outfit and commission one. So if Norway wants that all good.
NATO should revert to a AF North Command, and I’d suggest the UK command it. UK, Norway, Sweden and Finland, that being our commitment to NATO, not an understrength battlegroup in Estonia. GIUK Gap, High North. Thats where we can really make a difference – not recreating a second rate BAOR v2.
RN – So T26 9 & 10. Type 31 Batch 2. 9 more P8s. Osprey replace Crowsnest (+ re-fueling version for 35s)
RFA – 4 more Tides
64 Typhoon T4; 7 more A330MRTT; 10 more A400Ms – see if any more C17s can be brought
That’s quite the shopping list and would need a considerable increase in the budget beyond 2.5% of GDP.
Ben Wallace, who one would assume knows his stuff, has said that 2.5% will allow us to stand still, but not provide the money to rearm.
That is pretty much true.
The reason things got so hollow was that rather than resizing for a 1.5% GDP conventional budget the forces kept running as if conventional was at 2% by salami slicing in the hopes of an uplift.
If the uplift had arrived in 2014 things would not have got this bad.
I admire your optimism.
Sadly the V22 Osprey would need significant modifications to be a viable crewed AEW platform. The primary issue is that the main cabin is not pressurized. Which would effectively limit the aircraft’s altitude to 10,000ft. Any higher and the crew will suffer from hypoxia. The crew could be put on either a centralized oxygen system or use portable tanks. But operating and wearing the mask for more than 2 hours is very fatiguing.
By limiting the achievable height, you constrain the aircraft’s radar horizon. Which would make it no better than Crowsnest, except for on-station time.
Apart from a costly modification to the airframe to make it pressurized. You could convert it to an uncrewed remotely operated platform. Which would then allow you to operate the aircraft higher. However, it won’t reach altitudes like 30,000ft. As the wing is too small to generate the necessary lift. Though reaching 25,000ft is still much better than a Merlin could ever achieve.
The 2nd generation Valor, may be a better option as an uncrewed AEW platform. It has a more proportional wing for its weight. So the production version should be able to at least match the Osprey’s 25,000ft, but I’d expect it to be able to go higher. I’ve ignored the AW609, as it’s technically a 1st gen tiltrotor, ie engine and gearboxes rotate, unlike the fixed engines on the Valor. So will suffer from the same high engine maintenance and FOD issues the Osprey suffers from. The USMC have been shown a 1:1 scale marinised model of the Valor. That includes the Osprey like folding wing etc. Bell are trying to promote it as a Huey replacement.
There’s also going to be the new tiltrotor offering from Leonardo/Bell (they put the band back together) for the NATO Next Gen Rotorcraft, expected to be a derivative of the V-280. I think the downselected companies will be making their pitches around August this year.
Let’s go wild and assume 3.5% defence spending….
What would be the need for four more tides? Maybe one or two if you’re expanding the fleet slightly. I’d rather have a Mistral LPH (or two), although MRSS might fill this gap. A few more escorts of any kind would be welcome – T31s most feasible and cost effective. Plan for 8 T83s. Rather than expanding the SSN fleet, a class of UUVs. Make sure we have a credible stockpile of TLAMS (I think we’ve barely got 50 on most estimates).
Pretty sure that C17 production has ceased, but might be able to pick some up second hand. 10 more A400Ms would be good (or alternatively some new build Hercs). Not sure we need 7 more MRTT (just refit the A400Ms with refueling capability). 6 more P8s would be good and more realistic. Back up to 5 E7s. I don’t think Osprey is a goer for naval AWACS. Some sort of UAV might be better, maybe one that could also have an armed version. Another dozen or so Protector UAVs for RAF too.
In terms of combat air, another batch of 48 F35B, to fully equip to carrier air wings, with a squadron left over for the RAF, if things get out of hand. Another 48(ish) Typhoon T4. And let’s not forget munitions – we need a deeper inventory of all missiles and bombs, and invest in the ability to increase production at short notice if need be.
Land forces (to be clear, Poland, Germany and France will do the heavy lifting here, but we need a full spectrum expeditionary capability) – upgrade more C2s to C3s if possible, but if not possible then join international efforts for next gen armour with intention of ordering 250+. Order a proper tracked IFV, plenty of good options. Artillery wise, proceed with RCH but maybe have at least some tracked models. I understand that MLRS is being upgraded and expanded – not my area of expertise, but just make sure we have enough ammunition, and that it’s not prohibitively expensive. In time replace L118s with M777s. Equip army Wildcats with LMM. New medium helicopter would probably go with UH60, but could be persuaded otherwise. Transfer Chinook fleet to army. Reluctant to suggest ordering more Apaches as they’re very expensive and helicopters appear to be increasingly vulnerable with the widespread proliferation of high quality manpads. Maybe a few dozen Jackals (unmanned armed helis) with LMM if they can be procured cheaply enough. Big effort to equip all vehicles with anti drone systems, both hard and soft.
Nuclear wise, maybe bring back some form of air launched/dropped weapon in small numbers – nothing particularly fancy – just to give an enemy another thing to think about. Maybe (reluctantly) go French (shock-horror!). Not sure how easy it would be to stick a small nuclear warhead on a Stormshadow.
I think my theme would be mass matters, so buy off-shelf where possible and avoid over-customisation / gold plating. But having high end units in credible numbers is also necessary, especially for the early stages of a peer conflict.
I love playing fantasy fleets…. but now back to reality… what will be cut next you reckon?
This site has done hilarious posts ,pure fantasy.
Only Spammers are allowed to post on here.
HMG talk too much.
Pot fucking kettle.
👋 I hope I piss you off even more, then.
Clear?
The Big Man speaks again. Look Danny boy, you need to wind your uneducated, non serving civilian ignorant big ego way the fuck in mate.
It’s one thing feeling all superior on here posting untold thousands of inane rubbish feeling like you own the place, it’s another thing understanding your utter ineptitude among those of us who have served.
CLEAR ?
Ten years you have commented on here with absolutely no Idea whatsoever. You are a joke in your own mind.
Ahhh so that’s one of the issues with you then?
You have issues with the amount I post.
And you have issues with the fact Im a civvy.
And all I say is rubbish, despite the positive interactions I get with many others here.
Which you translate as being a big man?
So you’re insecure then.
As long as the sites free for all to post, I will.
Writing clear in capitals doesn’t make clear any more forceful by the way.
See top of page? Contact us.
Go and complain to the site about my supposed awful behaviour.
I’ll wait.
👍
Wow pal take that chip off your shoulder and wind in the potty mouth! What’s yanked your chain? Daniele is top notch in his subject matter knowledge and encyclopaedia level of ORBATS and organisations! He is respected for his knowledge and contributions on here and seems a pretty squared away bloke!
Wow be civil. This is a discussion site, in which people discuss views.. wrong or right, expert or novice. Insulting someone is not on.
Dan, perhaps you need to learn the art of answer a question without actually answering the question. Politicians have done it for years!
The chap has a real foul attitude… it catches him out many times…. He can’t interact with people who make hime look like the fool he is. Normally he resorts to Swearing. It was the same a while back after he said Racist and Mysogenist things here.
Tottaly lost the plot and his cool.
These sites seem to love his type of views.
He’ll be on the email thing now, I’ll be deleted soon, He is a fucking arse.
I know…..
Have you got all that hatred out of your system now, Nige?
Or is it Jim, or whatever your ID is this week.
Ahh the racist thing, I remember that spat.
Nicely spun.
I do wonder Davey if it’s best to just say nothing at all, as the hatred for all i say here has come gushing out there.
Point is Nige, or whoever you are.
If someone like you comes on out the blue and insults, or is aggressive, as you were with my throw away comment above, I’ll reply in kind.
It’s quite simple. Why should I stand by and let myself be insulted?
Why?
It’s very rare, as most posters and site users are nice people.
You’re clearly not, so I tell you.
The alternate is to say nothing and just let the likes of you continue your hate campaign.
10 years? Has it been that long. I thought about 8.
I love how you twist the ego thing, as it’s actually you who is offended by a civvy with a bit of knowledge.
Otherwise, why bring it up?
That escalated fast!
Well spoken DM, I think he picked on the wrong target there. Can you imagine how he’d react if he found out who I am, who post blithely on topics way out of my expertise?
I can imagine mate.
Mate, some people are garbage.
Others aren’t. Another’s just turned up, I haven’t even read what it’s said.
They must have very sad lives. Hope you’re doing well mate.
Haha nice one 👌🏾
Yeah Daniella is the know-it-all ladyboy around here. Let her spew her gibberish, makes her feel important 😂
You generally pretend to come from the left then use homophobic insults? I think that rules out you being the usual middleclass whiteboy who liked Corbyn. You may still be a Muslim or black racist but I increasingly think you are right wing troll just stirring up anger by pretending to be left wing.
On the other hand Canada will be refusing more US F35 now, and build 3 warships in Halifax. Costing $22.2 billion, very expensive.
With Trump & Vance threatening to take over Greenland maybe we should look at developing the A140s with Denmark for them too? And what about Iceland? Any sales opportunities there?
What I find odd with all of these shopping lists is no one ever mentions the UK defences most stunning ommission:
No long range SAMs. We are one of the very few developed nations without them. Instead we rely on four blokes in typhoons for our air defences.
In reality if Russia were to conventionally attack UK they would fire 1000mile stand off weapons which our quick reaction force would be powerless to defeat.
UK relies far to much on soft power (and the USA) defending it.
My suggestion is that the JEF send troops to Greenland to head off any unwelcome visitors. A battalion joint force of Commandos would be nice and put Greenland under a form of Nordic Protectorate. Reactivate Albion and Bulwark as many of us have been saying.
The most obvious omission to this in my mind is why on earth did we not select CV90 considering our allies partnerships and interoperability. Norway T26 and Merlin seems entirely logical. Procurement should be used to enhance alliances and economies and promote interoperability, standardisation also drives down procurement and operational costs. However the biggest barrier to this and joint projects; 45, horizon, boxer, tornado, euro fighter is that countries don’t want to collaborate or share work share or have differing perceptions of capability or requirement. Bigger picture thinking is required. Given current events im not so sure on the selection on P8 although its been widely adopted by NATO and JEF nations it is inferior to what mra4 was going to provide compared to the P1 and hasn’t been able to integrate UK weaponry. The airbus solution may have the potential to be a superior soloution allowing more European participation.
Are they buying them fitted with or just fitted for like ours are going to be.