YouGov, an international research data and analytics group based in the UK, has released a survey that reveals public opinion on the size of the UK armed forces.
In the survey, the prevalent belief among the respondents is that the armed forces should increase in size.
YouGov’s survey, conducted in response to concerns by General Sir Time Radford — NATO’s second highest-ranking general — highlighted that “the most common view among the general public is that the size of the armed forces should be increased”.
The General had earlier warned about the risk of Britain losing its influence within NATO due to the dwindling size of its army, which has dropped from 97,000 regular soldiers a decade ago to 76,000 currently, with a further decrease projected.
According to the survey, 45% of the general public, including 67% of Tory voters, opine that the armed forces should indeed be larger. The stance is, however, less popular among Labour voters, with only 27% sharing the sentiment.
The survey noted that “Labour voters are instead most likely to say the armed forces should remain about the same size they are now”. A third of Labour voters and 28% of the wider public held this opinion, compared to a smaller proportion (22%) of Tory voters.
An intriguing find from the YouGov survey was that only 1 in 14 Britons believe that the armed forces should be reduced in size, with a minuscule 5% advocating for the disbanding of the armed forces altogether. This standpoint was more prevalent among the younger demographic, with 11% of 18-24 year-olds and 8% of Labour voters supporting it.
In light of the recent Armed Forces Day, the survey also revealed that “the majority of Britons (58%) have a favourable opinion of the nation’s armed forces”. Notably, only 9% of the respondents held a negative view, whilst 26% maintained a neutral position.
However, the support wasn’t unanimous across all age groups. Young Britons, aged 18-24, were “the least likely to have a favourable view”, with 40% favouring the armed forces. Among this age group, 19% held a negative view, a stark contrast to the mere 3% among those aged 65 and above.
Pretty typical amongst the younger generation I see. They did not see the Cold War, have not seen or been under threat of war, many are clueless about international geopolitics and the threats out in the wider world, and are more into celebs and their mobile phones. Is pride in the armed forces even taught in schools now?
“The stance is, however, less popular among Labour voters, with only 27% sharing the sentiment”
This does not surprise me. Tin hat on and hides from incoming. I wonder what the % will be amongst Labour MPs?
Spot on mate.
I may be wrong, but can you find older JMK posts? I cannot. Has he been removed?
Just found one . its the last entry on the :
One Russian casualty ‘for every 48cm’ of Bakhmutthread from last month.
Maybes hes on holiday after been suspended from his BBC job
Yeah, got it, ta. I thought he’d been binned.
77 brigade strikes again
Isn’t the demise of the St Petersburg troll farm part of the mutiny fall out?
They were so obvious that they didn’t really achieve anything.
SB wrote: “”Isn’t the demise of the St Petersburg troll farm part of the mutiny fall out?”” Thats a good point. Ive noticed the fall in pro Russian appologists also. That said those in the West (looks at the UK) who listened to these idiots are still dancing to the tune their masters blow on their skin flutes.. I responded to one such acolyte on a post about the US supplying Ukraine with Cluster muntions. I pointed out that Moscow has been using them on civilian targets since day one including a screen dump of a video from the 27th… Read more »
He got banned after some of his comments went to far.
You might be able to check voting records on Defence on sites like theyworkforyou. You can individually, but but I’m not sure how you’d get at an entire party at once.
I believe in better days gone past that society wouldn’t give a rats ass what 18-24 year olds thought of the Armed Forces unless they were good enough to be in them!!
But if that’s the age group you want to volunteer, their attitudes do matter. Manpower shortages are affecting many countries- Ireland, Sweden, Netherlands, USA and even France, where military recruitment has for years taken advantage of the lack of other opportunities for school/ college leavers. Leaving aside the widespread wokeness of generation snowflake, it cannot encourage recruitment if the impression given of the armed forces is of continual reductions in numbers. Why join an organisation in apparent decline? Whether a better articulation by government of why defence matters than the vague and wordy Integrated Review would make any difference, I… Read more »
I think this is exactly right. The government has to stand firmly behind the military, including its funding, and we also have to make the moral case for Defence. Not in boring policy documents but in social media and on the sofas of breakfast television. I hear tales of banks defunding defence companies, especially SMEs and startups, as they don’t fit the banks’ idea of an ethical portfolio. Or maybe what the banks can sell as an ethical portfolio. Defence handled well is as ethical as it comes. It prevents wars and mitigates suffering. It doesn’t cause it. But as… Read more »
Defence handled well is as ethical as it comes. It prevents wars and mitigates suffering. It doesn’t cause it.
Spot on, we also need to remember we sometimes need to go on an offensive to defend. This harder to grasp at times and we’ve not always done it for the right reasons, that doesn’t make it any less valid though.
We need HMG to take a far better attitude towards defence rather than talking the talk but cutting mercilessly at the things that ensure our security.
Years ago there was a list of Military Tasks and ‘Force Elements’ assigned so that you could see if we had enough manpower and equipment to do all that would be asked of them. Quite convenient for HMG that such a thing does not now exist.
“Leaving aside the widespread wokeness of generation snowflake, it cannot encourage recruitment if the impression given of the armed forces is of continual reductions in numbers. Why join an organisation in apparent decline?”
This is a major reason; there’s a perception of lack of job security. Who wants to work for an employer that seems to be continuously downsizing, and where you might be next on the chopping block?
Hmm. I was not made redundant in 34 years in the army, although I wouldn’t have minded a big redundancy payout on occasion.
I was made redundant three times in my second civvy career of 12 years.
You weren’t but with reductions in personnel of over 30,000 between 2010 and now, clearly plenty were.
Many reasons for the armed forces being under-recruited as well as your point about perception of decline and the dogged puruit of veterans decades later for some sort of offence committed on Operations. One of the biggest problems is the pathetic performance of Capita and bizarre reasons for rejecting applicants. Perception that pay is poor, with many being aware that when the army covers for striking civilians the soldiers are usually earnng far less than the strikers. I am sure the snowflakes don’t favour seperation from family and friends, firm dicipline, reduced privacy and lack of creature comforts. Also for… Read more »
I agree with all your points( just wanted to keep my post reasonably short). If I remember correctly, the army gets @ 10x the number of applicants as it recruits. How many are rejected as unsuitable and how many give up on the recruitment process, I don’t know. The army’s ability to recruit does seem to improve when there is active combat. We haven’t seen such a prolonged period without military operations somewhere for a long time. So perhaps that is also a factor. As Lance Percival said in an old TV sketch-” I didn’t join the army to go… Read more »
Bravo.
As you say, they are always the ones who have to fight. So a negative view may be somewhat inevitable.
As for Ukraine, I understand that only 18 months ago the population did not think the Russians would invade; somewhat wishful. That said, when they did every Ukrainian & their dog rallied – youngsters making Molotovs and adapting small drones as I recall.
You should always care what 18-24 year olds think of the armed forces, not least because they’re the people you want to sign on, but also because today’s 18 year old will be next years Jeremy Corbyn.
Ok my point was that in the past there were enough recruits to fill the larger armed forces of the time. The military didn’t exactly need to wage a Public Relations battle to win over the wavering barely-adults. Simpler times i suppose.
“Your country needs you!” With Kitchener on it? Loads of cases of public relations exist, hell the armed forces used to press gang unwilling people into the services.
18-24s don’t tend to vote in large numbers and so their opinions don’t really matter. 60+ vote in very high numbers and hence why their views dominate polictics.
Did anyone ask the Tory voters if they are willing to pay more tax to fund a larger military.
Everyone is in favour of spending more in the UK but there general perception is that some else should pay for it either with higher taxes or benefit cuts just not their taxes or benefits.
Well Labour are talking about finally dealing with the tax loopholes so I hope more money is raised that way, and not just for Defence.
Fingers crossed but I think tax loopholes are largely imaginary. It’s easy to talk about closing loopholes but the reality is that most of the “loopholes” are things like 25% tax free pension cash or rebates to companies for R&D spending.
Also things like paying dividends, reality is large number of skilled trades men use small business setups and pay themselves 12k a year salary tax free and then the rest in dividend at 8% up to 37k p.a. Clamping down on these tax breaks hit the little guys more.
Cutting RnD breaks would be a very bad idea, the future of company is its RnD and if companies cut back in this area or shift their RnD elsewhere that’s bad for the UKs future.
Do you need to pay more tax to get defence spend up to 2.5% of GDP. Surely you just cut back each of the other spending departments a tad.
👍 can’t even take popies into schools
What? Is that true??
Sadly mate yes we’re I live anyway 🇬🇧 😟
Words cannot express how disappointed I am with that. The people that poppy represents, as imperfect as they may have been, and fighting for BS reasons as occasionally happens, gave everything for us, and some bureaucrat (who clearly has no idea of the things done to preserve the freedoms that they’re now abusing to foist their BS on kids) thinks it’s ok to forget them…?!? fair to say, my blood is boiling at that one bud.
Happy to join a protest so the decision maker loses their tax payer funded job if you want.
kids takes poppies to school, that’s fakes news. No such ban exists in the uk.
Don’t get me wrong ,they can we’re them .But there don’t take into the schools like in my day.That’s for sure but I will look into it jim.🍺
Is that more that it’s not expected of them, though? There’s no pressure to wear a poppy.
Which is right; the whole point of our sacrifices in the Second World War especially was to secure freedom.
It’s a shame more people don’t wear a poppy, but at the same time I’m glad that it’s not something enforced or mandatory.
That’s not remotely true, schools have poppy appeals every year.
I’ve never seen that. I have multiple friends who are teachers who’d disagree with this.
I also work in a University and there’s no ban there. I wear one every year, as do multiple staff. Pretty much everyone in the Security department, 90% of whom are ex-military or ex-police.
I’m my kids schools they are the ones selling the poppies so maybe it’s just ur school going bonkers.
Round here mate you wouldn’t believe it
Is it an age thing rather than generational? Seen some stuff which says 16-25 year olds more likely to favour socialism etc but once their brain fully develops & they experience the real world, opinions tend to swing. Been the case since the 60’s.
Do agree on celebrity worship, clueless on geopolitics and lack of knowledge of history too.
“Not to be a republican at 20 is proof of want of heart; to be one at 30 is proof of want of head.”
Francois Guizot, French Prime Minister (1840-1848). His father was executed during the Reign of Terror and in his later life he worked for a constitutional monarchy.
Clemenceau reused it in the start of the twentieth century with socialist instead of republican.
But it goes back further. John Adams, the US President, was reputed to have said something like it long before Guizot. So you are right; it has been the case since the 1760s.
I’m sure you’re right, Stu. I must have been an exception as even as an 18 year old I had these old fashioned, patriotic views with strong emphasis on military matters😳!
Yes, enough of the age group generally do, of course. And keep privy information secret, with or without signing OSA, as virtually everyone here will be aware. So, heading a bit off-piste, that’s what struck me as most disgraceful about the US National Guard lad a while back. JC! – we were all his age😠
Rgs
I liked the minuscule 5% wanted to disband the armed forces…that’s not minuscule..that as serious number of people holding a profoundly stupid view…but then 3% of the population think the world is likely flat and 3% would ban all vaccines with another 11% unlikely to use them or give them to their kids…..
If you assume stupidity to be a randomly distributed quantity that can be modelled by a Bell Curve then you would reasonably expect a few per cents’ worth of outlying (i.e. deranged) opinions in response to any question.
That number will probably always remain around 5%. Most of those people will grow up and see the point of having armed forces – Ukraine is proof of that.
Scary mate! Especially the flat earthers!
I’ve been on an aeroplane and could clearly see from altitude the world is more dish shaped than flat, ‘flat’ ha, who are these people 😃,
Unfortunately not everyone has there heads screwed on the right way. Often people can assume everyone is as clever or clued up as themselves which often isn’t the case.
I wonder if these poll results are the same as they were 10,20,30,40 years ago? They probably are quite similar.
Hi monkey, probably it’s always been the same….I think a percentage of humanity has to differ and be at odds with everyone else, even if all the evidence shows that their belief is completely BS. When you look at the very odd beliefs that counter everything evidence shows it’s always around that 5% mark ( in this I separate the don’t knows, lack of knowledge types…like vaccine hesitancy..from the idiots…like the anti vaccine brigade vaccines are a government plot to kill off the population).
Some are a product of the modern media environment. Websites now feed people what they want to hear not what they should hear. This amplified in social posts and retweets of headlines that don’t represent the facts, so we have people living in media bubbles that reinforce a certain belief these days. Sadly the political class are now relying on this rather than discouraging it. The old papers had one or 2 front page headlines to get the sales but you likely sat down and read all the details. For many that’s no longer the cases. The sad thing is… Read more »
Now now Jonathan you can’t call people ‘stupid’, you’ll have the woke police after you and you’ll be cancelled😀
I don’t so much mind being cancelled..that whole Lala la la will not listen thing is…Stupid…cancel me and I just going and make a cup of tea 😂🤣
To be fair young adults seem to have their brains wired to deliberately contradict obvious truths. Probably evolution’s way of preventing human kind from accepting their parents ideas at face value and get them thinking for themselves. They are normally thinking like everyone else by their thirties. Just hope they have gained something from that time of being a pain in the a**.
Indeed, although we say legally you’re an adult at 18, biologically our brains don’t mature until the mid to late 20s (around 25-30). Basically although physically fully an adult..the most import bit is still an adolescent. Thats why 18-30 old males are the most likely to kill themselves, their friends and random bystanders in a car accident…their Brains are still that of a child’s not an adults.
I wonder how many of those Labour people who thought the forces should remain the same size actually know what size they currently are? Or any of those canvased?
It may just be total ignorance & the trite HMG statements about world beating/capable/amazing etc armed forces that deceive many of the public that all is rosey when the reality is reckless, dangerous weakness & ongoing capability gaps, with more cuts expected every review.
I wonder if those civilians (and the politicians) know the real truth about military numbers. Firstly not all of our uniformed personnel are deployable, not by a long chalk. Also, you need to deploy a lot of troops to have an effect. I am reading ‘Losing Small Wars’. The author talks of UK first deploying 3,500 troops in 2005 to Helmand, but in that 16 Bde deployment there was curiously only one BG – 3PARA BG were 650 strong. Guess how many were available on a daily basis for patrolling beyond the wire? – 168 on a good day. That’s… Read more »
Indeed Graham. Seems like we, the west, have been working too hard & too long at telling the world we’re weak, making it a reality by interminable foolish cuts & can be beaten. All the evil going on in Afghan’ is as much down to Biden pulling out without sufficient preperation as the medieval Taliban mindset we were opposing. If we had decent, capable leadership the public would be made aware of both the state on our forces & the realities of the treats. Instead we let trolls, criminals, wannabe’s & self serving billionaires lead us by the nose, deeper… Read more »
Well said Frank.
The younger generation didn’t see the cold war, but they did see the Iraq war, Afghanistan, alleged SAS war crimes, civilian casualties in Syria and so on. Your opinions are formed by your experiences, and the UK armed forces have had a less than perfect reputation over the last 20 years. Why on earth would anyone sign up for the prospect of another Afghanistan campaign? The UK military strength of the cold war was a response to Soviet threats, it wasn’t for fun or national pride. There isn’t anything close to such a threat now, so you have to ask… Read more »
Hi Louis. Going into Afghanistan was the right thing to do. Remaining there was not. Iraq was clearly wrong. Alleged war crimes remain alleged. The SF other achievements over decades are not alleged but fact, but as usual the media set upon a problem and inflate it. In both the decision rests with the government, not the military. So to me youngsters should be blaming the ministers responsible. Not the military themselves. The number of people on Twitter who are clearly young adults who want the forces disbanded and who have no concept of the dangers in this big bad… Read more »
Does it really matter if the responsibility lies with the military or the government? Either way, it’s people in the military who get shafted by poor decisions. Blaming ministers for bad decisions isn’t going to improve recruitment when those ministers aren’t held accountable and the harshest penalty they can receive is being asked to step down. The lack of accountability across the MoD is shocking. If the government wants to improve recruitment, they need to, at the bare minimum, improve pay and living conditions. The armed forces have had some of the worst pay rises among government jobs for years,… Read more »
Twenty seven per cent of Labour supporters. That certainly puts defence at the top of Starmer’s list of things to spend money on.
One of my own personal fears concerning the possibility of a Labour government is is the fact that so many Labour supporters think that self defence is evil and that you should negotiate with a potential enemy from a base of total weakness – and actions like Russia attacking Ukraine reinforce their views! At the moment, the Tories are a disaster. My view is Labour could be worse.
You’re right on both counts Rob. You would think that given the support for the Ukraine shown by the public the present government has an ideal opportunity to increase spending. My biggest worry with Labour is this Eurocentric policy which means that the navy could take a hammering. I do know that there has been talk of the marines being absorbed into the army. Nice excuse to say army numbers have been increased?
On what counts is he right?
The self proclaimed one with no factual evidence or
Negotiation with an enemy? Did I miss Labour party calls for negotiations over Ukraine?
Or did I miss Con timidity in 2014 wrt actions against Russian oligarchs? No, I didn’t miss that one.
I haven’t met a Labour supporter who thinks self defence is evil – who did you get that off?
I think trashing the economy is evil shrinking the actual spend vi’s a visa GDP and not finding more actual capital for Defence is evil: I’m really disappointed that so many of you carp on about Labour evilness in this echo sounding chamber – grow up.
Personally I’m more concerned about replies that insult people for no other reason that they read the news. Or who misrepresent what has been said – in this case I didn’t say or sugest hat Labour is evil, that is your input. Labour leaders and supporters to the left of the party often make statements that are anti-defence. As long as Labour has leaders such as Michael Foot or Jeremy Corbyn Labour will not be trusted on defence. ‘The problem for the 62-year-old former journalist is that he did his best to get Jeremy Corbyn into Number 10, who said… Read more »
Are you suggesting I insulted you?
And I never wrote that you, personally, thought Labour were evil – I used a generic form; you had blandly stated that many Labour supporters thought self defence was evil. No links, no substantiate evidence and now you go all snowflake when someone calls out your BSM
However, you then sent a link to a paper where Healey stated he would reverse cuts to Army manpower and then wrote to Geoff about the Tories are a disaster and fear Labour would be worse; did you read the article you sent me?
‘I’m really disappointed that so many of you carp on about Labour evilness’ – so yes, YOU.
Again, on reading aerticles I was looking for specific cases and chose to use one quote where a Labour leader said he wanted to pull out of NATO, another where a Labour leader was all for unilateral disarmament. You will note ‘Granted, at the moment Labour is actually supporting defence spending.’
And believe me – snowflake I’m not. Nor am I a doormat.
And on another point. Who was negotiating with the Russians b4 it kicked off? Oh, Ben Wallace, who’d have thunk it! And I’m grateful, I’m sure most of us are. I was annoyed and frustrated by some lead stories in national media outlets yesterday that focused entirely on the comment by UK Secretary of Defence Ben Wallace that suggested that he wanted ‘gratitude’ from Ukraine. Once again I saw journalism at its worst and editors operating outside the best interests their own nations. Imagine the two parties, President Zelensky who has been leading his country in war for seventeen months,… Read more »
Most of that I fully agree with.
Where are they going to get the personnel? After years of crapping on the white male population, why would they join?
Are white males allowed again to join the RAF?
Not unless they do black face. 🙈 I’ll get my coat on the way out.
Everyone can apply.
Perhaps I had better get my coat too, for daring to mention anything about ‘affirmative action’.
Meet u outside in the bus stop of shame. It’s left past the protesters
Surprised only 58% had a favourable view of the armed forces.
Why do 19% of young people have an unfavourable view? What’s driving that negative perception?
WMD’s in Iraq, Camp Breadbasket, Drones blowing up weddings, BBC Panorama running stories about alledged SF war crimes, combined with minimal interactions with the armed forces (sequestered away in garrisons) and with the armed forces being percieved as right wing makes it a relatively unpopular institution with the, more left leaning, younger generation.
I had not heard that the young think the army is right wing – we all know they are apolitical. However it may be a perception. Some of those examples go back a long time but would still be in the sub-conscious.
The army is apolitical as an institution, but they lean more right of centre in terms of the majority of recruits political views. Short back and sides and clean shaven creates a conservative image(that the army actively cultivates, because it’s “respectable”) as well that’s at odds with youth who are a lot more liberal in their fashion choices. Negative stories make their way into the press and create a pattern, and then feed into a confirmation bias with people. If people already believe the army is “bad” they’ll pay a lot more attention to the (lets face it) much more… Read more »
Thanks Dern. That all makes sense. Civvies get their views of the army from some pretty hopeless sources – tabloids that focus on the lurid and negative; war films covering historic or more recent wars; dramas like Our Girl and ;sitcoms’ like Bluestone 42; stories from old sweats in the pub etc.
Also, I wish the army recruiting ads were as good as the RAF/RN/RM ones!
It’s one of the reasons I rail against the modern army so much, I don’t think recruitment ads are a fix. You’re not going to get the bearded hipster with a top knot (forgive the stereotype, just using it to illustrate a point) to put down his vanilla late and join the colours just by saying “Hey look at this cool ad about us blowing shit up.” You need to normalise the military, create exposure and positive experiences, not just what people see in the news, and then give recruits a sense of their personal agency and lifestyles being respected.… Read more »
Your post conjours up the imagery perfectly. Back in the day the recruiting message was either join the army and ‘learn a trade’ or ‘see the world’, with the unspoken message being ‘deploy on active service and have an adventure’.
Pretty hard to cook up a good image or message now for the army, as you say….except that those salmon trousers sound better than the red cords, prevalent in my day.
Agreed it’s a hard fix, and some things, like changing basing to enable the more enviornmentally conscious community orientated lifestyle a lot of younger people seem to want (my perception so disclaimer attached) are difficult fixes requiring a lot of investment and planning changes. But some things should be easy no brainers. The moment you tell a recruit “You’ll have to cut your hair.” or “You’ll need to shave that beard.” and they turn around and walk out of the recruitment office (and yes I’ve seen it happen) it’s a policy failure IMO, and altering it would cost exactly nothing… Read more »
The Military does more than ‘lean right’ particularly the Army, but I am not certain how much of that is under their control. I think it is more that we get our teaching done on the cheap through relying on a left wing teaching profession so kids in the ideal ‘recruiting age’ range have a leftish view of the world without enough real life experience to question it. This is part of a more general problem of the British state depending on people feeling a real vocation for certain jobs to fill them. It saves pennies but leads to political… Read more »
Plenty of Labour and Lib Dem voters in the armed forces, even in the Army, so no, I wouldn’t class it as “more than leans right.”
I’m not really interested in right wing conspiracy theories about the state of education in this country, sorry, you’re barking up the wrong tree here.
If you think I am right wing please tell Airborne, he seems to think I am loony left.
I am not denying there are some Labour, Lib Dem and probably Green supporters across the Military; Also some right wing teachers/social workers. I believe the balance across those professions is out of step with society by more than I would describe as ‘leans towards’.
We probably just use the phrase differently.
I gave my explanation of why and a possible solution. How would you correct this?
Probably the percentage of young people is the same as it’s been for a long time.
It’s pointless to ask if you think the military should be larger without also asking would you be willing to pay for it.
Did they ask whether they were willing to pay for it and if so how? It’s just noise unless people are willing to go without elsewhere or put their hands in their pockets.
Our PM asking NATO members to pay more on Defence and yet we only pay 2% has if it’s a big deal and smiles about .IT’s a joke ok many countries not paying the 2% but he’s got nothing to be prowed of with him still wanting cuts to our defences .And oh yes the Army is way to small .🙄
To be honest, I’ve always believed that the General Public do in fact support the military, even the younger generation. There are all manner of folk out there, who would not want to be involved in opinion polls, again especially the younger generation. I think that if the military were more newsworthy, and the public more widely informed of the trials and tribulations of the Armed Forces, there would be even more public support for them, from all age groups. I’m not sure which Labour voters were polled… maybe Corbin supporters. The 5% who supposedly would like to see the… Read more »
See this is why the Singaporean approach of National Serivce is effective. 93% support for the policy and even greater support for the armed forces themselves, not to mention a similar army size to the British Army (72,000).
It’s social indoctrination designed to keep the same party in power for 50 years, is that what your advocating?
Well they have done their job well, and there seems to be no issue.
Introducing National Service when we already have a worker shortage is not a good idea. For every young person running around a field, there’s one less nurse/careworker/police officer being trained etc
It can just be 1 year, which to me would seem reasonable. Moreover, while serving they gain considerable knowledge and expertise that can be used for civilian roles.
National Service is not required. Its a terrible idea. Only good for General War when we need to raise the army to massive numbers.
So many who advocate a return to conscription wax lyrical about the character-forming benefits accruing to a conscript – but say nothing about whether or not the armed forces would gain benefit.
Indeed, there was a reason it was dropped in the first place.
Why does the UK need to enlarge it’s armed forces? What is the threat? China is no threat. Russia are only a threat to Eastern Europe non nato members. Iran is America’s problem. Argentina has no military hardly. The UK no longer has any invasion plans in the middle east. Smaller, yet highly technologically advanced forces are the answer for the UK. No increase in defence spending is going to popular with a UK voter. You all ask why such a dim view of the armed forces of the UK? Iraq/Afghanistan a distant memory now?
Because we have no capacity to absorb losses. If we were to end up in a war against a peer or near-peer enemy, we cannot afford to lose more than a handful of Typhoons or F-35s, we cannot afford to lose a single destroyer, frigate or SSN. We’ve seen what a true peer-conflict is like by looking at Ukraine vs Russia. We cannot afford to take losses anywhere near what they’re both taking. We can’t even afford to take losses like we did in the Falklands. Also, the fewer planes, ships, tanks etc etc we have, the more use each… Read more »
Good point about the number Steve. Take a look at my post of a few minutes ago.
There needs to be a few more questions to get anything meaniful out of this. Ask the general population if they would like the retire at 50 and most would say yes, ask them if they would be happy to drop all holidays and restaurants/takeways between now and then to achieve it and they will say no. There is always a balance between what we want and what we are willing to give up to achieve it. I’m pretty sure if you polled people in isolation about increasing staff at the NHS /policing/etc and would also a general opinion of… Read more »
To aid in recruitment of the young into the Armed Forces they need to see they will get something positive out of it. In this day and age of students leaving Uni with £40-50K+ debt that should they serve for a period of time and stay in the active reserves for a period then that expected debt of getting a Uni degree (not some soft mush of course) will be cleared for them. Yes paying for their education once they have put something into the pot. We get bright intelligent people and they get debt free. Even pay for them… Read more »
Politicians are really slow to catch on. It’s embarrassing!
The public are also in favour of holding previous politicians accountable for leaving us in this terrible mess.
Quelle surprise. Moving on however, the question is and always has been, where shall the money come from? The options are either 1) take from the NHS or 2) increase taxation.
There are other options it not a polar choice.
Well don’t keep us in suspense.
Matt, do you need a list of the ‘spending Ministries’?
Well, the NHS has the single biggest slice of the pie, and it’s a very big slice. However, what do you suggest cutting?
NHS is underfunded compared to OECD average, so I wouldn’t touch that.
I would take in a pro rata way from:
‘Business, Energy & Industrial Strategy’;
Scotland block grant (which is too high for the population size) and from
the Treasury Reserve.
I would also put spending on the Nuclear Deterrent back to Treasury where it always used to be.
No, it isn’t. The 2019 OECD healthcare average spending was roughly £3,000 per capita. The NHS spent £3,300. The 2019 OECD average total Govt spend per capita was £15,000. The 2019 budget was roughly £12,500 per capita. Hence the NHS takes up more budget both absolutely and proportionately. My figures are 2019 however, I haven’t updated for 2022. Covid years show disproportionately so I don’t like using those figures. BEIS activities may need to be overhauled for effectiveness but the nation needs to spend on encouraging business activity in order to grow its exports. If I’m not wrong, the UK… Read more »
OECD – OK I got that wrong – I think UK healthcare spend is low within the G7 group and set against the EU14.
Not sure why you shoot down all my suggestions – you seem to want to prove that Defence cannot be found any more money.
We do pay the Scots a huge amount (more than is warranted) their Covid handout was mega too – why do you think they can spend more on their people – free university, free prescriptions since 2011 etc.
My apologies, I didn’t intend to “shoot down” your suggestions. I just disagree, given the limited information I have. No doubt somebody in possession of a different set of facts may disagree vehemently with me! If I were to criticise my own words, I’d say that perhaps the UK should benchmark spending against a more tailored group of countries (perhaps Australia, France, Germany, and Italy) rather than the OECD alone. Also, I was wrong, Healthcare is the 2nd-largest expense, Social Protection is the largest. Combined, they take up fully 50% of British Govt spending. If I’m not mistaken, Holyrood reckons… Read more »
Thanks Matt. More money can always be found if necessary – Covid response, Cross-Rail project, HS2….all hoover up the pennies.
I wish the Government of England (wooops, we haven’t got one – Blair forgot to do that) would spend another £6,000 on my family per year (2 adults, 2 kids)!!
Yesssss…. but, no.
There are far too many Trusts in the NHS, they need pruning and the salaries / stipends freed up.
Each Trust has its own procurement budget – some items need centralised buying, with delegated local spends – much like a single fleet of MK5/6 trains or police car fleets.
Within the public sector there is ample room for savings but those Trustees are not going to be happy losing their incomes, hence, the Cons couldn’t make the cuts and efficiencies, can Labour?
Sorry but Wallace dropped the ball today. What a plonker…
Yes agree, but he speaks the truth. Ukriane will not force Russia to retreat. The geopolitical landscape needs to change. F16s, Storm Shadows and Lepoard tanks will not change the outcome.
Something forced Russia (USSR) to retreat from Afghanistan (perceived by the Soviets to be a short operation of no more than 6-12 months) in 88-89.
Wiki: ‘The war effort gradually inflicted a high cost on the Soviet Union as military, economic, and political resources became increasingly exhausted’.
It depends what the message really was. If you read his whole statement his wording was reasonable. I think he was making the point that those pushing for more aid would like more public recognition of it from UKK to help fight those opposing it. In the run up to the US elections this is very important. If we keep the support going the Ukrainians will do the rest. Sorry Frosty (not) but Al Jazeera had some good reporting yesterday making the point that people are disappointed by the slow progress but in five weeks they have taken back as… Read more »
His comment suggesting that Ukraine should show more appreciation for the aid?
Good afternoon, Graham. So far, I have searched in vain for first hand evidence e.g. video / audio, as to the exact phrasing & manner in which Ben Wallace made this now much quoted statement. Is there such of which we’re aware? There’s written reports, together with many news presenters that have adopted a frown expression when relaying this particular comment, but that would leave scope for dramatic licence, unless evidenced admissably . I’m personally still in the dark over the exact context, therefore. The closest I’ve yet come to a reporter using speech marks is here: https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-show-gratitude-west-support-ben-wallace-nato/ But that… Read more »
Everywhere media covered Wallace’s unscripted remarks:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/12/uk-defence-secretary-ben-wallace-suggests-ukraine-could-say-thank-you
Apparently Sunak was cross and distanced hiimself from the remarks. Zelensky was baffled and asked an aide to ascertain what Wallce really meant.
But I too have not heard audio directly.
Yes, you’re right. A number of direct quote marks from various newspapers. The renowned Amazon comment shifting about somewhat. Wonder if this is the origin of the much-imitated presenter facial expression?
https://www.reuters.com/world/urging-gratitude-weapons-uk-defence-minister-tells-ukraine-were-not-amazon-2023-07-12/
Straight talking to a bunch of reporters, what can Wallace have been thinking of? Disgrace to the political profession – ?
Its like ‘reputation’ – can take years to build up and a minute to lose.
Mm. Still, not often you can include ‘politics & straight talking’ in the same sentence. Wallace retains a certain appeal in that post, I believe. Furore should blow over, though whether he endeavours to include the press so candidly in future is another issue.
Will be interesting to see who his replacement is at reshuffle. Best to promote a Minister from within MoD for continuity during the European war.
Interesting indeed. Assume ‘understudy’ would be James Heappey. Times also has John Glen, the chief secretary to the Treasury 😟? & Penny Mourdant (maybe not be taken too seriously, but you know my ‘theory’ on blondes). So, on balance, which would we favour, do you think? Rgs, as usual
Don’t want an ex-Treasury bod – they will just want to keep cutting (the habit will be too hard to break). Penny is a true Warrior princess and knows how to wield a large sword! Good that she was a RNR officer. Experienced too. She was DS for a short time – not sure why she was moved on. Daily Mail (I don’t trust their reporting) speculate on James Cleverly, Tom Tugendhat, Penny Mordaunt, John Glen. For Cleverly it would be a demotion, Tom has relevant political experience and has a military background (Lt Col in TA and served in… Read more »
OK, we await…
We need a whole nation approach.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/britain-risk-china-intelligence-security-committee-report-government-b1094118.html?itm_source=Internal&itm_channel=section_banner&itm_campaign=breaking-news-ticker&itm_content=1
The younger generation don’t appreciate anything worthwhile , they don’t because they have no life experience and think they know it all..after social media says they do. Why would most youngsters advocate discipline and self sacrifice when it doesn’t suit their own personal needs ..
where will we find these young recruits, as they are all in UNIVERSITY raking up Student debt to have a better life. yet wont like not having a phone to moan at the world on Twatter