At a recent meeting of the Defence Committee, Air Chief Marshal Wigston was discussing the number of E-7 Wedgetail aircraft.
Initially, analysis had identified a need for five airframes, but only three were purchased as a result of the Integrated Review.
The Air Chief Marshal stood by the decision to purchase three of the type but stated that the aspiration for the future fleet is five aircraft.
Chair: “Quickly, for a couple of minutes, let us look at the back-up for that. We visited Birmingham, where the Wedgetail—the E-7—is being made. It is a very impressive aircraft. You spoke of the Wellington comparison, and what makes the F-35 an interesting aircraft is having that mother ship being able to control all those assets with the E-7. That prompts the question: when we are growing the fleet of F-35s, why did you purchase only three E-7s and not five, as you intended originally? Would you like to have more?”
Air Chief Marshal Wigston: “I will answer that by saying that our original analysis identified that the number to give our political decision makers choice, to bring resilience to the force and to add the value you talk about from this phenomenal platform, which really multiplies the force, was five airframes. The decision of three that we came out of the integrated review with I absolutely stand by, because I recognise that the decisions made were in the context of all the other decisions made across defence. My focus now is absolutely on delivering the three that we have signed up to and getting them into service as quickly as we can, so that they enhance the frontline and contribute to NATO. That analysis stands. At a future date, in a future review, it is something that I hope we would come back to, but my focus now is on delivery.”
Chair: “I understand that No. 10 takes a huge interest in Defence Committee hearings leading up to the integrated review refresh. This is your opportunity to share what you would like to come out of the upgrade. There is a suspicion that there were an awful lot of cuts in your capabilities in air power, and this was one example—moving from five airframes to three. If you look at the equivalent of E-7 over the water—which is the P-8—you have nine of those, whereas you have only three to work over the land. Last opportunity: would you like to see more of these in the integrated review refresh?”
Air Chief Marshal Wigston: “The integrated review refresh, as you say, is ongoing at the moment—”
Chair: “Just say yes.”
Air Chief Marshal Wigston: “The decisions are for the Secretary of State. What we would recognise as a future fleet and an aspiration for a future fleet is five—”
Chair: “Ah, okay. We got there—thank you.”
The top bass need to stop being so polictical and just come out and tell the truth. If we needed 5 but took 3 for cost reasons just say it, rather than trying to spin it to cover up the gap.
This is the closest I have seen to an active service guy admitting our cuts were too extreme, but still not fully there, allowing the policticans to quote him and state that he stands by the decision to buy 3.
Purchasing further Wedgetail and Poseidon aircraft should be our foremost priority in terms of the RAF. Unlike the cost of an extra 50 F-35s, which is enormous, this seems doable over the course of multiple years (though is by no means inexpensive).
By the sounds of the rumours coming out, there are further cuts incoming in the defence review, so 5 won’t happen.
I think 5 is guaranteed, there will be no cuts or it will bring the government down but their will be no increases.
5 would be an increase from the currently planned 3?
Is Britain planning to lose a major war with Russia, which could happen?
Britain will not be fighting any war with Russia alone. Lets stop that nonsense now. We are a mainstay within NATO and share the burden of our defence against Russia..and rightly so
But at the same time, our numbers of everything are so low that we cannot sustain any losses in either personnel or materiel.
We’ve cut our forces to the bone and worked on the assumption that we won’t take any losses.
thats not necessarily
true.
You are rapidly not becoming a mainstay of NATO. It takes actual money and actual military production… And personnel.
Sorry Esteban but does your home country have nuclear deterrent or 2 aircraft carriers ?
dave12 you are comparing apples and oranges. Your aircraft carriers fly at 50,000 feet at 500 knots scanning thousands of square miles for up to 17 hours, do they? Hum, there must be more to Pommie know-how that I thought.
How are things in Spain at the moment Esteban? still sore over the ROCK? Grow up 🙄
Meaning: crown, garland. A melodic variation of Stephen, Esteban is a boy’s name of Spanish origin. Derived from the Greek name Stéphanos, meaning “crown” or “garland,” Esteban wears this translation with pride.
A little bit of history for you.
US fanboy, always frustrated and angry aren’t you, green card or Brit squaddie socks in your laundry again, which is it today?
Have you been paying attention for the last year ? The Russian armed forces have demonstrated their absolute incompetence and utter mediocraty of their equipment while systematically being destroyed by the Ukranians. The Russians were a paper tiger a year ago today they don’t even qualify as that. It will take them 20 years minimum to replace the men and equipment they’ve lost. If ever.
we are part of NATO which is the largest, most powerful single military alliance ever to have existed…that could quite frankly win a war with the rest of the plant combined.
But even if we were somehow fortress UK on its own. Our navy and airforce is so far beyond what Russia brings to the table any theoretical Anglo Russian war would see the Russian airforce and navy reduced to scrap and barred from the Atlantic…which would be a slow geopolitical strangle hold on Russia.
All their numbers would be simply meaningless.
We are a part of NATO, if you recall.
An attack on one is an attack on all.
Well if our economy was not the only one out of the major nations faltering then maybe we would not cut the defense budget, although still its criminal to cut defense now.
We should also be integrating the air launched version of the naval strike missile onto the P8s, and the F35/Typhoon. The future all singing all dancing anti ship missile is years away from delivery and we need such capability now.
A very sensible suggestion. Hope it happens. Even a few more P-8s to go with the E-7s if it’s affordable.
I am pretty sure there are no plans to integrate the NSM to any of them. The air launched version is the ASM and although it is being integrated by Norway for its F35A it is too big for the smaller bay of the F35B.
The F35B is due to be integrated with Meteor, AMRAAM and SPEAR3 but it is a long slow journey as the software has to be adapted by the US.
But like F35 and C17 if you looking at an active production line you can tack on a few orders at the end when their is spare cash in the contingency. This is particularly important when buying USD priced aircraft. This way you can fight your battles with the treasury for your core programs like Typhoon or A400M. Doing things like this allows you to run a defence acquisition budget when you have no idea of the end cost of what your buying. Sure we need more E7 but 3 defends the UK and 5 let’s us defend Poland. 12… Read more »
C17 production is closed. That’s what happens if you wait too long.
E3 is eol. European NATO has yet to get the memo it seems. There are still 16 E3 in Europe as part of NATO (what’s the plan?). US has finally admitted the fact that they are out of time & ordered E7. E7 is a known capability in active service. Long lead time items now means even if 2 more were ordered tomorrow, UK is now competing with US (& possibly others) for the likes of the top hat MESA radar. These are not 3D printed items.
If they want more E7’s they need to move right now, before the USAF finalises its order. After that we are in the queue, besides which we need to keep the STS facility active.
We should also, in my opinion be replacing the Tranche 1 Typhoons we are retiring with more Tranche 3 Typhoons.
The F-35 has it’s used but when it comes to Air Defence and air superiority we needs Typhoons
I recall when the Poseidon order was placed at 9 airframes, the minimum needed at the time was assessed to be 16. The extra 7 deemed necessary never happened and neither will an additional 2 E-7s. I’m sorry but this government – or the next (and we all know their track record) – has absolutely no interest or regard for defence and merely mumbles lip service. Even when it comes to supporting Ukraine – where we should doing all we can to help them eject Russia – the war has been raging now for almost a year and this government… Read more »
Only Issue is Currently there are not enough Crews to Man the 9 P8s so if we had 16, likewise we have 30 F35s yet only have 14 pilots. pointless parked on the Tarmac
Agreed. It’s an odd twist when the politicians are being less political than the top brass; the exasperation of the chair in that committee being a case in point.
Just imagine a similar situation in discussing the ‘tactical’ disengagement at Dunkirk. It would be akin to the numerous Hitler in the bunker spoofs.
Indeed –
Chair: “Okay let me try again. So do you think we should evacuate our troops from Dunkirk or not?”
Top Brass: “Well I stand by my decision to deploy those troops and am focussed right now on delivering that decision”
Chair: “Right, but you know..the Germans are getting a bit close for comfort aren’t they?”
Top Brass: “Well that’s maybe something we might want to be thinking about at a future time but right now I’m focussed on….”
Chair: “Just say ‘yes’…”
What else would you expect from Tobias Elwood ?
Oh I don’t know every time I hear him I can’t help but imagine Liz Truss’ dimmer brother. 😂😂
Ouch! He’s no Julian Lewis, but that’s a bit strong.
Maybe I just keep catching him when he’s having a blonde moment ! 😁😁
You don’t get to a position that high without being political.
Unfortunately true. As we have seen in Russia that is a slippery slope, with them fully at the bottom with their top brass being miltiary useless but very polictival.
Wigston wouldn’t be in post long if he didn’t lick toe-caps. He would never have reached his giddying height without much practice. He has artfully managed to make it seem he had his arm twisted by an uppity M.P. Gong and House of Lords next.
2 Hopes and the other ones ‘Bob’
Followed by no hope
Isn’t it marvelous how the top brass of all three services hate rocking the political boat. It’s like their pensions and future job opportunities depend on keeping to the party line. Wouldn’t it be refreshing for a person at the top to state the truth, regardless of how it will upset the establishment. I just find it very hypocritical that when these people leave the service. They start spouting off about lack of capabilities due to decreasing numbers or capability holidays. “I expect leaders at every level to be engaged, authentic and relentless in upholding the exemplary standards of conduct… Read more »
Just like all the rest. And the positive discrimination issue as well?
Around 6 years ago, I was running an event for potential officer cadets and on the Sunday morning just before lunch we ran an assault cse. Due to the numbers, I had touched base with another unit which was running a PTIs course and asked if they would like to be able to give their candidates some real people to boss around. They jumped at the chance. We had a Col from RMAS to come and watch us and after entraining him with a coffee(and biscuits) we left my office and proceeded to bimble over to the assault cse. As we… Read more »
So she’s another one poisoned. I don’t find the term “coloured” racist no more than if someone described me as “white”
I could say to you that you’re coloured, and it would be true, and that is not an offensive comment.
Western world’s gone mad farouk.
Respect.
Its funny how a liberal mindset which finds everything and anything offensive has resulted in ruining years of social cohesion. I see myself as British not Asian British, just British. All I see in inserting a noun in front of a country results in diluting and breaking the bonds of national unity. It affords those with an axe to grind to define themselves as something else. A few years ago I was visiting Leeds and on hearing a load of music I turned around to see a truck with a steel band playing running alongside were a load of hippy… Read more »
Bravo, farouk.
Farouk. I sincerely respect the time you gave to our country, I really do. However, I would suggest both “british” and “asian” are adjectives not nouns… just saying. Meanwhile, in ‘sunny’ Cumbria, white van men pull up alongside my Sri Lankan wife and tell her to f. off to where she came from and take her f.ing black monkey with her. My daughter is of a darker hue, she does have a Sri mother who is a tad darker, my daughter is Anglo-Lankan and with time and martial arts classes, she’ll kick seven bells out of anyone that is racist… Read more »
Hi David,
As a disabled person I have not faced that kind of in yer face prejudice since middle school, although I do face on going prejudice / discrimination of a more subtle kind…
My deepest sympathes to you and your family. There are far too many ignorant people in the world. I do hope your daughter gets to wear your beret.
Best CR
Well Chariot, she’ll have to earn it first!
Thank you so much for your thoughts and concern.
You are most welcome David.
I had a feeling your daughter might have to earn the right 😉 I may have worked with your old regiment very briefly when I was an Operational Analyst…
Cheers CR
The bit I never understood is why on a survey it asks anyone if they are white ? Pink, Cream, Puce yep I get that and depending on the weather Blue, Red or slightly Tan. But white ! Nope non.
I did look for an option “most of them” but nope.
The issue being there is a budget and defence chiefs have to work inside the budget. The governments not cutting it any more so what can they do. Defence chiefs are their to spend the budget allocated not determine what the country can afford.
That’s what happens in China and it’s not working out well for them.
Then say so. No need to apologise. Simply say analysis says five or more preferred, but due to budget limitations we have to go with the minimum that will still provide a positive outcome. Hopefully future allocations may improve that, but that is a question for government.
There – was that so hard?
But the analysis depends on what the government wants to achieve, most uk defence spending is discretionary. It’s paying to project power and defend allies. 3 is a minimum viable capability so any analysis would show 3 is “required” but the more the merrier.
Jim
In case you miss understood my post a couple above, I was referring to the RAF officer, not you. I think you got it but Internet forums are funny things.
You have clearly never worked in the civil service. They look to promote sycophants that carry the same ethos. The people they promote never rock the boat, it’s a prerequisite of promotion. Free thinking is frowned upon, they have set guidelines to follow.
Sadly or is that luckily I’ve not worked as a civil servant. There was a moment of madness when I left the forces that I nearly signed up for them. Thankfully other companies wanted me. Though I have worked with a lot of civil servants. In general they’re ok, but naïve when it comes to military matters. Especially the amount of abuse kit gets in the field.
I’ve already had a chat from HR. Apparently you can’t call a person an idiot any more.
What can you call them…”intellectually missappropriated resource”
Cockwomble. Only those in the know, know!
Sadly that is exactly the reason they do it. Whatever the claims about separation we all know if you upset the battlecart the powers that be will discuss how and when to blackball your life during deep conversations in the lounges of the Gentlemen’s Clubs they all frequent. However you feel about it few are going to right off for the sake of honesty their nice cosy ex forces work opportunities or retirement. We are only one step removed from the historical situation where Generals from influential aristocratic families bought their Commissions.
So this Rupert who is politically motivated whilst supposedly being in charge of the RAF is asked why only 3x E7s and replies his “aspiration” is for 5 aircraft.
WTF??? 5 isn’t aspiration it’s a minimum force level.
Aspirational would be 9+ aircraft I’d say. He has definitely missed a trick there.
Sounds like too much looking over his shoulder at his future prospects, it looks like he hasn’t got his “K” yet and is still hopeful. Seriously, you are right, there is a world of difference between minimum force level and aspiration, if we are going to continue the pivot to the Indo Pacific we will certainly need more E7’s and more P8’s as well. If you want to go back in recent history why do we still have too few F35’s? Because the politicians decided to spin out the purchase into a penny packets rather than get the necessary numbers… Read more »
yet if we buy them all now they have none of the capabilities we need them to have from later lots. All aircraft are bought in tranches or lots with later having far for capabilities
You are of course correct, the services always want the best. My concern is if you are always waiting for the latest whizzo increase in capability you are always be going to buy the kit next year, which gives Whitehall a cast iron excuse to kick the can down the road. And I believe that the latest software update for the aircraft is several years late. I think it may be several more years before we see a deployed carrier with a full load of UK aircraft. On another topic, I have just seen that the shadow minister of defence… Read more »
You do know the E7 isn’t just ordered off a production line per se, they are bought as Boeing 737 NG and then fitted out separately as E7’s. So it isn’t a Tranche system they are just like the E3 / B52 they are so large they get updated through their lifetime which if it is like the E3 could be 50 years. The reason to order now is because the USAF has an urgent need to replace their oldest 15 E3’s but haven’t yet finalised the contract. So order the additional MESA, etc, etc and the Airframes before they… Read more »
And there’s a reason meteor and the other UK bespoke weapons are not being integrated … You don’t buy any aircraft
👜👜👜
It depends on what you want to do with the force. 3 let’s us defend the UK, 5 lets us get involved in defending other people. 25 would be ideal so what’s the real number? Their are also some very valid reason why both the UK and USA were slow to renew AWACS and are buying smaller numbers of E7. There are other better ways to provide AWACS other than an airliner with a big dish on its back. It’s hard to see how long such a platform would survive in a real shooting war facing J20’s armed with PL15.… Read more »
They’d be protected by Typhoons.
Which then brings into question our low number of Typhoons as a separate problem.
The only surprise was that he didn’t say that they only needed 3 right now because the aircraft are more agile…..
FFS more worried about massaging the politicians ego than speaking straight hard facts about the countries brittle defence capabilities.
This sums up everything that is wrong with the senior leadership.
The military should not be hoping for anything, they need the kit and they need the people. The treasury should provide the cash, end of.
I flew out of BHX recently, we taxied right past the STS hanger and the doors were open so got a good gander inside. An absolute hive of activity converting these bare bone 737ng airframes into E-7 Wedgetails. All that training, equipping and staff going up the learning curve and delivering these vital assets will be lost after the 3rd airframe, what a Crock of $#1t. So if we want anymore after that we have to either reopen it for 2 aircraft which will cost a fortune or see if we can get 2 from the US programme (don’t hold… Read more »
Chair… “Do you want more?”
Normal person… “Yes…”
Chair… “How many?”
Normal person… “Ten please…”
Chair… “That’s a bit high!”
Normal person… “let negotiate…”
British Military, none political since 1660!!!
Exactly, or in my case, the bean counters would settle on five, the number I wanted in the first place.
How to negotiate to get what’s required to get the job done since 1660!
Indeed
Chair- “ If you look at the equivalent of E-7 over the water—which is the P-8—you have nine of those, whereas you have only three to work over the land.”
Is the Chair really comparing an ASW aircraft mission to an AWAC aircraft? please tell me it ain’t so!😱
I think to these people, surveillance is surveillance.
God Help us all.
I wonder if, given the choice of more P8 or more E7 but not both, what would the RAF choose?.
The RAF most likely, the E-7…
The MOD, most likely the P8…
Get even more confusing for people when you name drop…
Rivet Joint, Poseidon, Wedgetail, Shadow, Protector, Reaper..
“what what what… Six different aircraft used for recon….”
Fine distinctions @ GB…..
They are planes that fly and have radar’n’stuff init?
You should watch more of his speeches and interventions in Parliament. He makes Liz Truss look bright.
The expected programme cost for the three aircraft is £1.89bn, down from £2.155bn for five. In 2018 it was reported we were paying “$2.6bn for six Boeing E7 Wedgetail aircraft”. The same money as for 5. What happened?
Inflation and the £ sinking against the dollar.
People voted Tory, Brexit got done, the UK lost 5% of expected GDP, the pound collapsed so now what did buy 5 gets 3.
do me a favour if its all down to brexit why are all the other nations suffering the same
Why’d my wife leave me ? Why isn’t my cough cough bigger ? Why did my car not start this morning ? Why have I never won the lottery ? Why why why ? You need to realise Brexit is the answer to all of the above ! 😫😫
Should of applied for an EU grant for a cough cough extension before brexit.
Ur car didn’t start as the part the garage told u needed changed is manufactured in Europe is stuck at customs.
Ur wife left you as she was from Europe and didn’t submit her paper work in time.
You didn’t win the lottery as the nice polish lady at Tesco left her counter job because of brexit and Tesco have struggled to find her replacement so u couldn’t get the ticket on😂😂😂😂😂
You’re as mad as a box of frogs ! 😁😁
I would say that the lockdowns are now just catching up as well. So apart from the lost revenue, we also have a half trillion to plug from the expenditure to combat covid, but I don’t know if that has been recovered. We are not the only nation that is suffering from high inflation. Also, the war in Ukraine does help either. It’s been a bit of a pisser of events. I don’t think Brexit would’ve happened if there was the foresight of events. But Yes, the Tories have botched things as well. I also wouldn’t expect anything better from… Read more »
Pretty simple the set up costs, manpower, training, tooling etc is the same for 1, 3 or 5. Except it gets divided over fewer Airframes so they cost more.
Astute, T45, Nimrod MRA4, Zumwalt, B2, F22 etc etc etc.
The classic is the MRA4 project spend by the time it was cancelled was £3.8 billion.
That started out as being spread over 21 airframes, then it went downwards, 18, 16, 12, 9.
Which is probably why we bought only 9 P8’s.
Ah yes, the Wigston name appears yet again. He will make the next edition of the book ‘On The Psychology Of Military Incompetence’.
In the private sector he would not last his probation period.
Well it is so typical of the top brass – NO BALLS at all. There should be 6 as a minimum for the E7’s and the P8’s brought up to the level we wanted of Nimrod 4 (21). The RAF have been informed that the Typhoon Tranch 1 can be brought up to a fighting level too, yes cost money but may be cheaper than new builds that will not happen. The F35 fleet need expanding to the 4 frontline (4 x 12 = 48 + OCU (12) and trials unit (3) = 63 in service with reserves. Oh its… Read more »
Just like Poland
As I recall, the reason given for the early retirement of the tranche 1 Typhoons was that they could not be upgraded. That now seems to be incorrect – another politician’s lie?. So this should be seen as what it is: yet another cost driven cut.
Like anything you can apply a fix and BAE do have a fix.
It isn’t a costed fix, as BAE explained, if they thought it was going to happen they would have costed it and briefed.
Reading between the lines, I’d say the problem was that BAE didn’t want to take it on as a fixed price package.
I would guess they wanted wiggle room, in case anything went south. BAE have been stung before by fixed cost contracts
As you rightly say: BAE got their finger burned a few times.
Typhoon T1 could be upgraded, but at great expense. Money we simply don’t have, and if we did, the RAF would spend it on fitting more Typhoons with the AESA Radar 2 or integrate SPEAR3 onto Typhoon. Or put the money towards more F35B’s. Thats what they would really like. The T1 fleet was due to be retired in 2015, so it’s already being given one lifeline. Spain has upgraded a small number of T1’s, because it has a rapidly aging F18 fleet and no F35 buy (yet) Italy is also retiring T1 Typhoons. The French have retired early Rafales.… Read more »
As I understand it, one of the reasons for the delay in standing up the second front line F35 squadron is pilot shortages. Due to the farce of the MoD privatising flying training, spending millions 9or should that be billions) on a system which has inadequate capacity to train the required numbers. And then you have the farce of suitable pilot candidates being turned away because they do not match up with the “diversity” requirements i.e. the candidates are white men. FFS!
While I was against privatizing flying training, and still am, the MFTS is training the numbers wanted.
I’ve read that the “blockage” is actually further in at OCU level, and that’s an RAF issue.
Plus, the availability of the Hawk fleet at RAF Valley. “Written evidence submitted by BAE Systems plc Following on from my appearance in front of the Defence Select Committee in November as part of the inquiry into Aviation Procurement, I am writing to follow up on two specific questions: 1. The timelines for upgrading the RAF’s Tranche 1 Typhoon fleet 2. The availability of the Hawk fleet at RAF Valley and the work to rectify recent issues” LINK They will also purchase 20 new Typhoons under Project Halcon. “The Spanish Air Force has received the first upgraded Tranche 1 Eurofighter… Read more »
Pound to Euro 1.12 Euro. “Known in Spain as Project Halcón, the Typhoon buy will raise Spain’s fleet to 90 aircraft. Valued at €2.043 billion ($2.15 billion), the project was approved by Spain’s Council of Ministers on December 14 last year, and includes the 20 aircraft, eight spare EJ200 engines, a simulator, and support services. The first of the new aircraft is due to be delivered in 2026, with industrial work secured until 2030. Although manufacture will be conducted across the four Eurofighter partner nations, the Spanish aircraft will be assembled and tested at the Airbus plant in Getafe in… Read more »
Just as the new carriers were coming online the RN had 88 qualified and current fast jet pilots so more than enough to cover what one CAG needed. The waste is the slow progress of the light blue jobs who took control of pilot training and the discarding of suitable in service crews able to man them. SO many RAF unit have had to be back filled to keep them manned. The RN is in so many flying units it keeps the RAF fleets flying.
BAe will upgrade anything for a price.
Nimrod ring any bells?
The triple 15″ Superfire turrets for HMS Victory? 😀
Cost benefit analysis by UKMOD will say not worth going on BAes previous performance.
Ideally you would buy more T3s which would be cheaper in the long run regarding air frame hours, cost of upgrades and having just one type of aircraft to support.
However neither is going to happen.
Now if another country stepped in and said “how much to upgrade ex RAF air frames” that would be a different matter
Perhaps we should ask someone to do that, Israel perhaps?
Spains Upgraded T1s are just that, upgraded T1s not T1s moved to T3 standard which is what BAe are proposing. Like you say sell off the T1s and let someone else create an upgraded version.
T1 -> T3 upgrades……a small fleet within a fleet that would be even harder to upgrade next time round and with a more limited lifespan. Anyone seeing the problem?
Also re-manufacturing the whole thing becomes nuts as so much changed from T1 -> T3
There was this (Link). Sadly, it’s behind a login wall.
The best home for T1s would be someone like India. They could mop up a large fleet of T1s from Europe and run an upgrade program like they’ve done with the Jaguar.
Trouble is there are secret bits of tech in there.
Even software modules that have been ported through the tranches.
Everything in India is for sale.
They would have to be altered to export versions. I don’t think we’d want the Chinese to get close to the EJ2000 core or control systems.
I do think they should be stored and not just stripped or scrapped.
Yeah but the Typhoon has been offered to India before in 2 occasion. It lost to Rafale
A version of it was offered.
European export versions don’t tend to be full fat.
What was stripped out of it to make it exportable to a country with Russian kit and close to China I’m not too sure.
But I’m 100% we wouldn’t have tried to sell them the full fat version.
Close physically to China but not politically there been soldiers on both side killed in the past 2 years due to boarder disagreements and China backs Pakistan. India already has access to upto date engine tech with the GE f404 powering Tejas. Honeywell we’re to also sell modern engines fir the Darian upgrade if the Jags. Boeing are offering Super Hornets for their carriers. T1 gave been around a long time now so I’m not sure how much an issue the tech is and India certainly has access to comparable tech through other suppliers. But no point in debating this… Read more »
The domestic Indian procurement programs are a disaster by any standards.
Even with cheap labour they are spending top top ££££ on each platform wether it be carrier or plane.
Integrating say engine management is not easy. Being American sourced they won’t have access to the code so old school incremental fiddling doesn’t work.
And look how well the Rafale deal went?
The Indians were none to pleased with the real support costs.
That is the problem with selling anything cheap and ripping customers off for support.
Give them to Ukraine 2 years to bring their pilots upto speed, then we retire them?
Perhaps. That cards still in play.
Slightly off-piste but related to Defence expenditure. It seems like the Labour is prodding the Government for the UK’s “hollowed out” defence forces, Just watched the Shadow Defence Secretary John Healy talking sense on the Beeb re Ukraine and U.K. defence. He is urging the Government to boost U.K. defence equipment production and reboot our Defence plans. I think he just sort of backed Ben Wallace up by using the words “underfunding and hollowed out”. I wonder if someone will ask him if that means “does the Labour Party support increased defence spending ?”. It is a weird juxtaposition when… Read more »
I saw the interview. Easy to make positive noises about defence when you are in opposition, a different story when in office and you have to decide where limited money is spent. Healy talks sense and seems solid enough, but any SoS is only as good as the budget settlement their department reaches with the Treasury. No SoS actually wants to make cuts, they have no option if the funding received is insufficient. Remember how positive SDR98 was, particularly re. the RN, but the game soon moved on (Iraq/Afghanistan, financial crisis etc.) and things looked a lot less optimistic just… Read more »
Funnily enough, when I was on UKDM UK Defence Management, a forerunner to our UKDJ now, the period 2005 on had us all in a state about the endless defence cuts the then Labour government was inflicting.
And what was the Tory Shadow DS saying “Lets give defence what they need”
Same bullshit, different bloke.
Exactly! I remember UKDM, it was a good site.
So…another old timer! There was a “Rob” on there, we were usually in agreement about most things. I’ve wondered before if he is the same as one of the Robs here.
It was, and then folded. I’d hope that does not happen here, where would I go?! I’d miss all my “virtual mates” talking all things defence here.
I think I can remember a Rob always posting. The era when I was around was ~2008-2012, when all the SDSR2010 debacle kicked off. Some quite heated exchanges going on, especially re. Nimrods and Harriers. Even then quite a few supposedly outraged at the review seemed to be blissfully unaware of what had been going on at the MoD under Labour in their 2nd and 3rd terms. Never understood why the site folded as it was a mine of news/information and seemingly fairly busy.
Me neither. Nice to have an old timer here, Paul. 😀
Do you remember “Martin” and his Sea Typhoons?
Yes! I can remember commenting on this topic a couple of times. He was one of a group of posters constantly dissing the F35 and arguing for the mythical Sea Typhoon, Sea Gripen, F-18, Rafale, buy from the Russians, start building SHARs again etc. Basically anything that flew but wasn’t an F35. Those were the days! Likewise, I’m glad to meet you again.
For a few decades now senior brass has had covering their own backsides as a mantra. Since the T B Liar days the brass have become politicians, not leaders of armed forces. Just to listen to the present crew is an exercise in gobbledegook and woke spin. Inclusion and diversity is the new religion. Imagine having to make wartime decisions with these fruit loops in charge.
The RAF chap ACM Wigston comes across as a bit dim and feeble.
WOKE would be the word to describe him
Nothing of the sort he seems very astute. He must realise that as long as we don’t actually get into a boots on the ground shooting war he stands a very good chance of being the next CODS. Admiral Radakin has another 3 to 4 years to go and then it may well be the RAFS turn.
Radakin is a very intelligent and astute man, leagues above that woke clown.
I completely agree on all counts and I have to wonder if we have ever had another CDS who is a qualified Barrister. And as he is only 57 he should have 3-5 years in role (CDS usually retire 61 to 62).
But what is a bit worrying is that if he serves till then the present heads of the Army and Navy are pretty well the same age. Winston is 3 years younger so will probably be the senior contender and RAF to boot.
I would be very surprised if Wigston was to become the next CDS. He is currently Chief of the Air Staff, generally a 3 yr tour, but can be longer, he’s been in place for just over 3 years now and will be coming to the end of his tour this year. CDS is also a 3 year tour, Radakin has only been in situ for a yearish, so has about another two years left. Of course, things could change and his tour could be cut short, but unlikely as he’s doing a good job imo. Problem Wigston has is… Read more »
I’m not so sure about 3 years, yes that is pretty well the general convention but not cast in stone (1 did 6 years). These jobs are usually sorted a bit later in life and is as you say the pinnacle of their careers. So do it and retire. Admiral Radakin is 6 years younger than his predecessor, if he serves till 2025 he will only have just turned 60. As for Wigston he is 3 years younger than Radakin so if you apply the same to him he could serve till 2028 (already done over 3 years). Strange thing… Read more »
Thanks for pointing that out. I’d missed that he was called to the bar.
No wonder he can marshal a logical argument and express it so well.
Goes back to multi dimensional training. Teaching people to think etc
Hi folks hope all is well.
Good to see at last we have a clear answer to a basic question!
On theame of numbers, the recent main stream media are reporting on how the UK is left defenceless as a result of supporting Ukraine?
I would like to think this is over the top and the usual clap trap. Comments like ” UK would only have 48 hours of ammunition”
What do you experts on this site think?
Cheers,
George
If we had twice as many shells and twice as many cannons and maintained the same rate of fire – we would still only have 48 hours worth of ammunition.
My solution – cut the number of cannons by half and we will instantly have 96 hours worth of ammunition.
Or stop firing and we will have an unlimited supply.
I think you’re confusing the mainstream media with the Army brass. I am trying to avoid either at least until after the Defence review. There’s a lot of BS out there at the minute.
“how the UK is left defenceless as a result of supporting Ukraine?” Hi George. In some areas this is a typical media crisis fest. We have spare AS90, we have spare Challenger II Tanks. Giving some to UKR makes no impact on front line units which in the AS90s case are a mere 2 regiments and for CH II Tanks, 3 Regiments. So we are not defenceless handing those assets over, same with MLRS. On ammunition levels, that is classified but they are probably substantially correct regards certain stocks. Things are never as good, or as bad, as the media… Read more »
The question of spare materiel is dictated by the number of 1st line units. If 10 years ago we had 88,000 in the Army and now we are down to 72,000. Then logically we need less 1st line equipment. However, as Ukraine has clearly demonstrated, 1st line equipment in a peer war gets used up very quickly through either use, damage or destroyed. So it becomes more urgent on the numbers of reserve equipment you have to replace the attritional losses. If you have limited numbers, you will soon run out of providing equipment to your 1st line units. Which… Read more »
All true Davey. Fair points. I think, as always, a balance is needed. Politically, ministers want to be seen to do something, so keeping all of this stuff spare as atritional reserves is not an option. Neither is doing nothing. Neither is restarting production. So, at who’s door do we pay the blame for the UKs land equipment industrial capacity going to the wall? Who didn’t order stuff keeping the factories open? The Shadow DS is taking of “rearming” it will take some rearming to deal with the atritional rate you point to that poor UKR is dealing with for… Read more »
A fair question mate. Since the 1800’s we as a Nation have always favoured a small professional army. That could be deployed when required. It became after WW1 a highly mechanized force, which was to allow it to get to places and deal with situations before they became too extreme. This force was to act as a trip wire to allow the Country to mobilize its reserves. Following WW2 and the start of the Cold War, we had a more permanent presence in West Germany with a heavy armoured force, again whose purpose was to be the trip wire to… Read more »
Bring back the ROF’s!
I fear to reform the army to the level you explained will require too great a financial commitment or one which erodes the other 2 services to too great a degree. Where are the leaders in our political classes with the vision. If only…
What is your suggested force level for the army to be considered relevant again?
Hi Dan, regarding force levels. I would say as we were during the start of Afghan. So a force number of around 86,000. Which I feel is not the ideal, but is a start. Which be enough to start properly backfilling hollowed out units. Ideally, it would be around the 100k mark for full-timers. As this would give the numbers required for several combined combat divisions, that have specific roles, but with enough personnel to enable rotation in the field along with their enablers ie RE, REME, RLC etc. Like bringing back the rule of three. So one deployed, one… Read more »
Thanks for that Davey. Some uplift. The aspiration for the reserves seems the most out of reach to my mind. I think the only reason army manpower wasn’t cut by Labour sooner was that Iraq and Helmand were underway. I read on Sky yesterday the personnel bill for the MoD is 15 Billion. Unsure of the validity of that. Might come down to kit or people, not both. Which is why I favour cheaper assets to bulk up some areas. The balance beyween quality and quantity I keep on about. I see no other way to uplift numbers. For example,… Read more »
Davey, your recollection of the rule of 3 is a bit different to mine. You must be referring to the Formation Readiness Cycle for a Division, with its 3 activities for a given Division – deployed, training, other tasks (not rest). They were set such that when 1 Div was deployed, 3 Div was training. For enduring operations there was the rule of 5 – for each BG or Bde deployed on ops, you needed another 4, so as to comply with Harmony guidance for tour intervals, which stated that there should be 2.5 years between op tours. Options for… Read more »
We have an Attrition Reserve of all AFVs. This figure grows bigger as restructuring over the years makes the army smaller – unless some fool decides to scrap 80 CR2s.
I do wonder to what extent we ‘can’t’ make a gun barrel?
It isn’t a mystery how they are made and BAE makes guns in plenty of other places so the know-how is inside a UK PLC.
BAe has its fingers in so many pies, for example both Bofors and CTA as a joint venture with Nextar in Europe. I know the Chally’s L30 gun was designed and built in ROF Nottingham, which was then transferred to Barrow, when it’s was Bought by BAe. If I remember correctly this was where the AS90 barrels and breeches were made. But after that I don’t know. Do BAe still have the facility at Barrow? If they do then, I guess they could still make large calibre weapons.
This article suggests that there might well be capability there
https://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/barrow/16449781.production-of-barrow-built-artillery-gun-set-to-resume-after-india-finally-signs-on-the-dotted-line/
That should have run to 2019 ish but it is interesting M777 barrels are / were being made there.
Bit more digging around.
The facility is still there but most of the staff have been moved over the road to submarines.
They are still doing refurbishments there so the kit must still exist.
Cheers SB, that’s really good news. So there’s hope for us yet!
We had a lot more NLAWS than anyone thought.
Contrary to rumour the NLAWS line didn’t have dust covers in it but was ticking over making 500 units / annum to keeps stocks rolling over.
Similarly the BAE Washington plant was running producing shells and had been upgraded. The limitation there seems to be the rate at which the casings can be produced.
So recruiting an extra couple of shifts or so to allow 24/7 running isn’t impossible with a much higher throughput. Although I appreciate that with things like NLAW the parts chain is very much more complex.
See link below:
https://www.forces.net/news/take-look-inside-bae-systems-factory-making-munitions-military
I heard a little whisper than certain BAE plants get a sub from the government to stay open
That is why producing small numbers of munitions appears very expensive when you divide the plant overhead against numbers.
In the 00’s it would have been import everything like that.
Then US stepped in it a few times with export restrictions and the penny dropped….
Like pulling teeth! Our top brass remain too concerned with their own promotion prospects rather than the state of our armed forces.
The same boot licking waffle I heard from an admiral “explaining” how we did not require large carriers back when the Ark was retired.
From henceforth all further Boeing 737NG surveillance platforms (E7 and P8) for the RAF/RN should be switched to the Japanese Kawasaki P1 platform. The P1 is a more modern platform that is superior to the 737NG for loitering and also easier to customize for UK needs. Also no new 737NGs are to be built once the USN P8 orders are completed in 2024.
Finally choice of the Japanese platform will have the effect of binding Japan closer to the UK and solidify their commitment to the Tempest programme.
RAF were offered them and would have come in a lot cheaper too and able to do the job with the AEW role could have be Biggy backed on to that airframe too I’m sure too. Pity would have been a real deal with someone strong.
The problem is commonality interoperability = ease of supply. The RAF didn’t personalise the P8, but kept it close to the US standard, Norway did the same, so did Australia and so is Germany. Just think why we are changing the gun on the CR3. Besides which why would you buy a 2nd type of aircraft when you already have a MPA in service, with training, a purpose built service facility, established supply chain and NATO uses it. Would you suggest we buy the Dassault Rafale or more Typhoons. If they offered a lower fly away price. As for the… Read more »
Plus there is the 16 NATO E3’s & France still has 4. That’s potentially 50 new airframes all up on a 1 for 1 replacement.
Yep 31 USAF, 16 NATO, 4 France, possibly 2 extra U.K, Italy is interested and then more possible orders for P8’s from maybe, Germany (5 at present), Italy, Canada, Netherlands and NATO ?
Interesting times.
Why is 737NG line closing an issue?
Just buy up some commercial airframes and convert them?
There are loads around.
The Kawasaki P1 would have made an excellent choice for the MPA requirement,being a bespoke Aircraft,at the time options were being considered it was mentioned but i don’t know if it was a serious proposition or a means to get a better deal on the P8’s.I never read the reasoning for choosing the P8 in the end.Bare in mind that the JASDF uses the Boeing 767 for AWACS so no version of the P1 exists for the role,Ultimately i think the best option was chosen by the RAF due to commonality of Airframes which helps with legacy operating costs etc.
Just wondering, the E7 first came into service around 10 years ago. I suppose that there have been many lessions learnt regards its operation use with many upgrades suggested over that time frame. To that end will the E7s the Uk has purchased come with those upgrades fitted, or has the UK simply gone for the bog standard version it started life as.
Wanted a Rolls Royce, got a mini, hopefully on par with those in service with the RAAF the Worlds leading modern Air Force
RAAF are on a constant rolling upgrade of the E7, led by RAAF & E7 aircrew, rather than Boeing. I have read it took Boeing quite a while to understand how Australia wanted that to work. Once they got it, the results are said to be outstanding. Perhaps why the Ghost Bat drone has got so far so fast.
The real problem here on the 3 and 5 argument is we are only hearing from senior officers. What about the people who operate these planes ? I would rather listen to what they have to say on the issue. Do they think it’s enough ?3 is simply not enough or why is there 4 boomers ? I also think if the MOD had listened to the guys who actually operated the Warrior; Ajax problems may have been avoided.
Would be interesting to see one of the four boomers turned into a cruise missile/drone carrier. H I Sutton did a concept on the Vanguard class in this configuration. He made this in paint.
Quite possible.
MDCN – NCM
“The ability to strike strategic and military targets with
exceptional precision from extended stand-off ranges has become a key operational requirement. Bringing together these European skills, MBDA is now developing MdCN- NCM (Naval Cruise Missile) to meet the requirement issued by the French Ministry of Defence for a long-range cruise missile capable of being launched from surface vessels and submarines.”
It would be nice if they retired Vengence first. And refit it with a life extension plan as a mother ship.
Why are there four boomers?
One in long term refit, one in maintenance, one working up, one on patrol. Gives the option of two on patrol for short periods during a crisis.
Five would be too expensive to maintain. Three would be too few, leaving us with no cover should one suffer an incident or maintenance issue.
Vanguard has not moved from the pier in over 8 years. That’s
Why u need 4. The teensy reactor issue..
Ajax is not replacing Warrior but I know what you mean.
Wigstone’s waffle about the the reduction from 5 to 3 is straight out of ” Yes Minister” he could just have said 3 was all we could afford. But that would have meant he accepted the cut to 3 in the full knowledge that 3 wasn’t enough letting the politicians believe they were not further cutting RAF capability when he signed off the now flawed Integrated Review. I also worry that the chair of Committee believes the P8 overwater performs the same role as the E7 overland. What is perhaps more concerning is that Wigstone didn’t attempt to correct the… Read more »
Add in the fact that E7 works well over water, but is not likely to find a submarine. Any carrier or land based aircraft though is a whole other question. E7 sensors are concentrated on top of the aircraft, P8 below.There is overlap, which is a positive. But then there is overlap between a tracked IFV & a mbt. Doesn’t mean one can replace the other. If you don’t have overlap, someone will concentrate on the place where the two butt up & create a wedge.
Well according to Sky News yesterday, it’s already rumoured that there will be no new money for defence – what a surprise! I recall when the Conservative Party was the party of defence but really, Sunak is showing how far down his list of priorities defence truly falls. The writing was on the wall when he was running for PM when all he would commit to was ‘spending whatever is necessary to keep the country safe’ – he couldn’t have been any more vague if he tried! For all of their faults, at least Boris and Liz gave firm numbers… Read more »
Bravo. Why no supposedly informed defence “Journalists” mention this is beyond me.
It would transform things.
Daily operational costs are bourne by MoD, that is fine. It is the upgrade costs of the 2 AWE sites and the capital costs of Successor that are the problem.
Slightly off topic: Italy signed has just the companies that will participate in the development of GCAP (Link)
Good news!
Yep. This is a little bit of positive news in a sea of recent defence gloom.
Just need to get SAAB back on board. They appear to have not gone away, more of a holding pattern. They have ability & in some areas are world class. You get enough world class people together & you will get something. Get rid of the politics & let the engineers to their thing.
Clearly the capability review showed the need for five and the senior political decision makers were only willing to support 3 and the RAF did not want to chop another vital capability to get the correct capability for this.
The discussion is interesting as the air chief marshal was using weasel words to defend the policy decision instead of doing what he should be doing and advocating for the capability as it was shown to be needed.
Hear that P8 giving new rescue kit ,mybe if MPs fine them selfs in trouble sailing round the cost ,P8 to the rescue they may thank about giving the RAF a few more E 7s
The Treasury are desperate to claw back the £16.5 billion up lift the MOD were promised so expect cuts.
So the experts spend time doing Analysis stating we need 5 an order is placed for 5 then what HMT says you can have 3 with virtually no analysis? Where’s the evidence to say 3 is even a useful number it pretty much puts 1 aircraft at a stretch 2 in the air to cover the whole of UK airspace, North sea, Ireland, over channel etc. Without covering any deployed forces & the air marshal with a spine made of jelly says he stands by 3?! What an absolute ridiculous position to take grow a pair!
E7 over Iraq were doing regular 12-13 hour (longest was over 17 hours) flights in a war zone (& had a 100% availability rate). This was not & was never intended to be a 24×7 E7 operation (just 1 aircraft, but multiple flight & maintenance crews). E3 were also in theatre. However, how long can you do 24×7 with just 3 aircraft?
Sad to see the top brass of the Armed Services transform into snivelling political figures…
Seem to remember that 3 was the minimum required to fill the role vacated by the E3s hours and flight Time. as our E3s had been worked hard and were will worthless we gave them away. F35 can do as much as a E3 could and if you phase out the Tranche 1 Typhoons that required a E3 to engage multiply targets. so dont fall for the Waffle they know that the USAF will update the Wedgetail and that maybe rather than have 5 outdated before the enter service better to have 3 and then tag onto the USAF order.
Need the extra aircraft they do such a good job.
Axehead beats Meteor, which means that Eurofighter cannot forward defend E-7, especially in a SAM environment where the RAFs ARM of choice is the Storm Shadow. You Brits get all hot and frothy when there is a major war that you want to play in but can’t yet just as you are out of the EU, you should seriously be considering whether you belong in NATO. Weapons are worthless in peace and by the time the Russians or anyone else got to the Channel, they would be cooked and glowing. And so, likely, would you. The best weapon for Britain’s… Read more »
The E-7 will be capable of operating with all types of fighter/bomber etc. Growing numbers of F35s is not in itself an influence and this reference actually detracts from the argument that could be made! Further, does the E-7 not have an air defence over the sea requirement? Why is that not also a factor?
The RAF wants 5, the civilian bean-counter want 3. Simple as that.
There is an interesting article in US Air & Space Forces Magazine on joint talks at Ministerial level with the US on their E7 buy. Evidentially the USAF do not want to use second – hand airframes so they are stuck with the 2 year build of the 737NG and a further 2 years for system integration. Boeing may try and advance this timeline; currently the schedule is 2025 full production decision with the first rapid prototype delivered in 2027. However they see co-operation with the UK as being important as they consider their variant of E7 as being near… Read more »
With the announcement in recent days that the RAAF is deploying one of its E7s to Germany to assist in keeping an eye on what’s happening in Ukraine, there should be a lessening of pressure on the E3s performing the role.
I suspect it will also provide valuable operational feedback in developing the RAF and USAF E7s. It is said the RAAF is deploying 100 aircrew and support personnel for this 6 month deployment. Maybe a few RAF and even USAF aircrew filling seats on some of these flights?