According to the latest update British intelligence update, the Russian military has begun deploying BTR-50 armored personnel carriers, which were first introduced in 1954, in Ukraine.
This move comes as Russia continues to experience substantial losses in its armored vehicle fleet.
Additionally, the Ministry of Defence has noted that Russia persists in deploying T-62 main battle tanks, which have been in service for over six decades.
“The Russian military has continued to respond to heavy armoured vehicle losses by deploying 60-year-old T-62 main battle tanks (MBT). There is a realistic possibility that even units of the 1st Guards Tank Army (1 GTA), supposedly Russia’s premier tank force, will be re-equipped with T-62s to make up for previous losses.
1 GTA had previously been due to receive the next-generation T-14 Armata MBT from 2021.
In recent days, Russian BTR-50 armoured personnel carriers, first fielded in 1954, have also been identified deployed in Ukraine for the first time. Since summer 2022, approximately 800 T-62s have been taken from storage and some have received upgraded sighting systems which will highly likely improve their effectiveness at night.
However, both these vintage vehicle types will present many vulnerabilities on the modern battlefield, including the absence of modern explosive reactive armour.”
I read somewhere that they were using old muesum rotary guns that were designed and used by the Russian empire.
It might have been on Wikipedia do take it with a tone of salt.
No you are correct. There is video evidence of a 1910 Maxim being used, albeit fitted with modern sights, stock and suppressor.
PINCH of salt!
Old naval guns on the top of MTLBs,there are some pictures about but whats next T34s?
Wouldn’t be surprised if they manage to send out some old british mk1 tanks.
It is a twin 25mm cannon turret originally intended for or fitted to craft like that below with huge quantities of ammunition available. As the Russians have found with their BMPT (twin 30mm cannon on a T-72 hull) a pair of cannon are a devastating weapon when fighting in forests or field boundaries. Thy must have decided to Jerry rig a few more. Age is not a barrier to effectiveness.
https://i.servimg.com/u/f87/20/34/80/58/schmel10.jpg
We are putting .50 cal as the main armament on our Boxers. Designed by Browning and first trialled only a year or so after the fall of the Russian empire, they’ll probably be in use on our multi-million pound APC for at least a couple of decades.
Its still the best HMG out there, and its so good that it has’t needed replacement.
Armoured vehicles on the other hand….
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
Or in the case of HMG – if it ain’t broke, don’t try to gold plate it.
I suspect the original Browning’s have very little in common with the modern ones beyond their name and maybe basic shape. Modern manufacturing processes would have made the modern ones much more accurate and reliable, with no doubt improvements also in mounts, sights, ammo, etc also changing the design. If you put the two alongside each other, I doubt you would find any common parts. So if it isn’t broke, tweak it might be better term or triggs old broom.
If you open up a 1940’s 50 cal and compare it to a modern one. You will see very little differences. The steel used for the firing pin, block and feeder is now made of a steel that doesn’t rust as easily. The barrel release is exactly the same as is the most of the furniture. If you had been trained on the WW2 version and were given the modern one they operate in exactly the same way. So you could use it straight away. One big change between the two is the ammo. There is a plethora of different… Read more »
The 50 Cal was actually designed in 1918.
There have been quite a few new 50 cal designs. The design by HK was promising, as it was lighter, supposed to be more reliable and had less recoil. However, the original Browning M2 design still marches on. A lot of this is to do with its simplicity. For example once it starts coking up and misfeeding after burning through three tins of ammo, just open the top plate and quench the insides with gun oil. It’s good to go for another belt, but really needs cleaning when you can spare the time. They can be a right pain to… Read more »
Best heavy machine gun on the market
Correct. Also confirmation that they have now deployed the trebuchets, ballistae and Siege Towers at Bahkmut.
Wouldn’t surprise me they would probably go and use the T-34!
(Let us see if the Russians don’t start winning by next year this month they will probably go back to the T-34 as well as the old tactic of WWI they pretty much using WWII tactics right now but as I said in about a year with no success they will do the ‘Over the Top’ tactic!
I’ve seen videos of the Ukrainians using old water cooled Maxim guns on carriages in the current conflict. If a weapon system hurled lead down range and killed grunts in WWI. I’m sure it will still kill grunts today. Just not as light to carry or efficient as modern weapon systems.
Similarly with T62 if assaulting trenches armed with Maxim guns. I suppose it’s all down to how they are being used. Tank on Tank or as indirect fire support for infantry.
So now Mad Vlad is gifting scrap steel to the Ukraine? Even the Ukrainians won’t be able to upcycle junk like this onto the battlefield! Total waste of time on a modern battlefield. I would guess that they could be taken out by 30mm ATAW never mind stuff like NLAWs? Difficult to see a strategy here other than keep sending targets in the hope that the west gets bored or runs out of missiles. Mind you with their tactics of going down the same tract after a number of tank are blown up on it they will mostly self destruct… Read more »
Even worse that that BBC reported that some of the new callups don’t even have guns they are having to shovels to fight hand to hand.
Less risk to life on the Ukranians side.
Might save Russian lives as you do t fight a man with a semi automatic with a shovel from a distance except in films.
It was small arms and shovels…showing they don’t have much left in the tank for combined arms…not that they have run out of small arms….they will run our of soldiers before they run out of AK47s…last count I think they had about 10million in warehouses.
Russia does seem to be building a lot of WW1 style trench based defences. At the rate they are loosing armour, I would assume trying to use machinery to do the digging might not always be the best idea. So WW1 trench using WW1 methods (shovel) makes sense to me. Like running out of AK47’s, running out of shovels is unlikely.
Russian infantry have a long history of using shovels as weapons in close combat. In a lot of instances they will use them over a knife, in much the same way as a hatchet.
I had long handles shovels in mind. Is there anything special about these shovels as against fold up short shovels often issued to light infantry around the world? Perhaps it’s time the old sword bayonet made a comeback? Actually, I have only had my hand on one once, but the Danish axe just fitted. Wonder if I can interest anyone in a contract (sorry Vlad – booked out)?
Unlike the fold-up shovel we use. The Russian one comes with either a solid wooden handle or tubular steel handle. They’re about 50cm long in total. Normally they only have one edge sharpened. Unlike a knife you cannot thrust with them to cause serious penetrating injury. But are very good at chopping and slashing.
Better off with a Kukri!
They are getting shovels as the steam powered machinery is getting deployed next. Got to keep those boilers fuelled. 😂😂
Will be bringing out the mk1 tanks out of museums soon.
One should take anything the BBC says these days with a pinch of salt!
I think you have a point there. It appears to be another attritional tactic.
Yes, so the West and Ukraine wastes all its armament on old tanks. Kind of clever but will come at a human cost for them. Not that their leaders care about that!
It’s mostly prisoners, asiatics from out east and Chechens. Russia couldn’t give two hoots how many of those catch bullets.
👜
Are you out there yet big brave airhostess? They only have shovels apparently. You’d be in Moscow in two weeks!
Fast reply you have done well, you can have earned these 👜👜 good lad.
I’d be surprised if the BTR-50s stopped 7.62 NATO from the sides, seeing as they’re only 10 mm thick… Troops have to exit out the top of the vehicle too- which does wonders for being well silhouetted targets while disembarking at the assault point. Unless they’re using these as rear area taxis, or specifically for crossing an undefended body of water, I see no use for them that won’t get everyone inside killed. As for the T-62s, maybe some use firing HE in infantry support, but they’d need to be well supported to keep from being killed by pretty much… Read more »
It is more the illusion of safety. Here is some stuff boys with a fresh coat of paint.
But sadly, in reality, a coffin on wheels/tracks.
If a 25mm APC will got through a T62 then I’m certain a 30mm APC will go through it and make a bigger hole….
T-62’s are a perfect conversion to Recovery vehicles, of which there is a real shortage. Ukrainian’s have already made some from tanks captured in the Kherson offensive. Conversions were called BTS-4V.
Given that its unlikely the Ukrainian’s will have any, or little, 115mm in stock or captured thats the best use for them.
It cannot stop a 5.56 AP from the sides (12mm at 100 meters) …a 7.62 AP can go through the front at 500 meters…..ball is another story.
Its odd, but this story really brings home how many young men are going to suffer wholly unnecessary deaths for no good reason.
I’m not forgetting the Ukrainian losses, or the fact that russia is the aggressor here, or that Russian soldiers have not all behaved honourably. But there’s something about the idea of being sent into battle in such an inadequate and outdated machine that just makes me feel for the poor young men who are going to be expected to do it.
Yes, but as JiMK will be along to point out, they have enough spades to keep on attacking long after the Ukrainians or NATO have run out of F35s
Even North Korea probably has better equipped forces now.
Meanwhile, we are all benefiting from a history lesson as Russia teaches us all about the material of decades past. This month they’re teaching the 1950s, next month they will be showcasing the legends of WWII. Stay tuned!
That’s the thing and the parents or partners of these men can’t even protest about it without being sent to the gulags.
I will not shed a tear for the brutal Wagner & Chechen thugs who are killed, but I do feel sorry for the young Russian 18-23 conscripts, thrown into battle with little training, equipment & food. They should be safe at home, being fussed over by their mothers.
One fact that is blatantly clear Putin’s army wasn’t equipped to fight a modern war. Impressive fleet numbers of near-useless weapons fooled him into believing he could make a fast and decisive inroad into Ukraine. Prior to the conflict, impressive demonstrations of Russia’s sheer might and power put shivers through the Free World. However, behind all the BS and media hype what actually transpired was a poorly trained, led, and equipped force, slowed down by the effects of the weather and second-rate intel. Maybe we should look at North Korean and Chinese demonstrations of military might in the same light… Read more »
North Korean yes. China…well to quote General Matis. “They are a different beast”
Unlike Russia they are spending well over £300 billion a year on defence and are thoroughly upgrading their armed forces.
Forget the official Chinese defence expenditure, double or triple it and that is the true figure.
I think yes and no, they are still heavily reliant on Soviet style mass at arms doctrine.
Basically massed artillery followed by armour and infantry in huge numbers and hope the enemy fall back … It’s all entirely reliant on victory within a few weeks.
China has some professional troops and relatively (unproven) advanced kit, the ‘mass’ is conscripts and 40 year old equipment.
When it comes to armour, China also tends to fit the biggest gun on everything it can. So where a NATO type IFV may be armed with a 30mm & 7.62mm coaxial, they will go all out for firepower. eg the ZBD-04 IFV has a rifled 100mm (and a barrel launched ATGM) & 30mm coaxial.
You have to ask yourself how many of the nukes and delivery systems Russia has actually work as well. I know just having one nuke that works is more then enough, but you do have to wonder if there arsenal is as powerful as they claim.
Even if only 10% of them work, it’s plenty.
Not really if you take in to account NATO counter strike. Sure they will kill a lot of people but if you have to try and wreack all of Europe and all of North America you will need alot of weapons and you loose a lot after 30 minutes. If 10% work that’s 150 warheads and half are just tactical. Counter strike could Easley wipe out 75% of that.
If 150 warheads are used along with a counter strike by the west on Russian territory then a continued strike by Russian Subs thats effectively going to cause a horrific amount of deaths in both the short to medium term.
Dumping so much radiation into the atmosphere is going to have dire consequences for generations to come.
Kind of depends on whether megaton or kiloton weapons are used. I suspect one of the reasons the Yanks retired their 25 megaton (MK41?) bombs, was that the fallout from the very high mushroom cloud would eventually come back to the USA. If you use sub 500 kiloton weapons then hopefully the fallout stays more local.
Russia has not had mass for a long long time ( since the fall of the Soviet Union)…professional solder wises at best they had 280k with half of these 2 year done and gone contacts signed by conscripts. Warehouses full of old equipment’s. even it’s conscripts do not add mass..for a long time Russia has had a 1 year conscription and they basically just do civilian jobs for a year ( cooking cleaning etc….and get no real training) …so and a a few more hundred thousand conscripts did not add actual mass solders and all the reserves were these same… Read more »
China…is a diff ent beast..Russia as a military of rotting Soviet equipment..China is putting far more advanced surface combatants into commission every year than the U.S. and will over the next few years have a great number I’d modern surface combatants than the USN ( with most of these being brand new 13,000-7500 ton vessels…it’s got around 1000 modern fourth generation fighters…it’s also backed bay a massive economy that can afford to equip build its armed forces up at a staggering rate due to its vast industrial capacity. Russia is a third rate economy…that’s money is dependent on hydrocarbons with… Read more »
But what China doesn’t have is experience. Real world war fighting experience. Sustained deployed operations, logistics, command and control, or even anything as realistic as Red Flag or Joint Warrior. What looks good on paper doesn’t necessarily mean a capable fighting force. I mean, who would have thought the Russians would make such a mess of invading a neighbour. Everyone thought they had a kick ass Army and a frightening Navy, and some fancy looking 5th gen fighters. In the end, its all pretty useless. Usual Russian bullshit. Like watered down vodka 😆 Apart from the nukes.
To be fair Rob, I think most people knew that Russia had a shite navy and a bizarre hybrid army that had serous structural issues ( shite noncoms, officers that spent their time doing noncoms jobs..conscripts that basically spent a year peeling potatoes and cooking cabbage and getting beaten up by the more senior conscripts) navy is after all proper old and even the new stuff was actually all designed by the Soviets in the 1970s…anyone who really though about must have known that a nations with such a piss poor GDP and no existent modern manufacturing was not going… Read more »
13 months ago a lot of western ‘experts’ including dozens of former and current senior officers and politicians were saying that Russia was a serious threat not just to Ukraine but to NATO. Go back and read some of the articles printed in the run up to the invasion. Unbelievably many still are.
I think bigging up some of the threats has been going on for decades. It persuades politicians into spending more on defence, and the budgets for the next big new toy. I remember the fuss made about the MIG29 in the 80’s. Turned out to be not much more than a good airshow performer.
I think David a lot of those individuals had an agenda and some just got over excited…most of the assessments of the individual components of Russia as a geopolitical power were dire..the army that effectively lost the first Chechen war against irregulars had never successfully been reformed it still had the same structural weakness and the consensus was it was probably not capable of fighting a major war….the assessments of its industrial capabilities…demographics….navel building programmes…airforce training….all dire….but everyone forget that…. Saying that Russia is a serious threat but that’s in the form of a destabilising authoritarian who is likely to… Read more »
Many if not all of the most respected and knowledgeable Russian experts, even after the war started seriously believed the Russian military was more capable and would quickly overrun Ukraine. Go back and read their writings before and after. Kofman in particular who is as good as it gets when it comes to Russian military now willingly admits he got it wrong. Keep in mind that Russia has been in a state of armed conflict in Ukraine and Syria for over a decade now.
What is really interesting is that you had a lot of that hyperbolic sort of commentary going on with some quite knowledgeable people who suddenly started ignoring all the evidence of the last 10 years….but if you do what I have always done and look at individual papers on the individual elements that make up a geopolitical picture it’s a different story: 1) The state and performance the Russian army..the expert view was it was not fit for purpose and has not been despite desperate reforms since the first Chechen war. Pretty much every view of the Russian army has… Read more »
The US (& its allies) will be like the Royal Navy in WW1. They just need to bottle up the Chinese coast, which is why the CCP is wanting to grab Taiwan. The CCP has also spent big money on ports & pipelines in Myanmar & Pakistan, to evade blockade.
ummm chinas coastline is around 18,000km long, there is no bottling that length of coast.
You can ignore the Chinese coast. It’s the choke points that really count. In one way or another, a handful of powers control a vast majority of the world’s chokepoints. Create a list of maritime choke points & what countries can effect those you & you repeatedly come back to UK, USA & Australia. There are others involved, but if these three seriously decide you are not going through, you aren’t going through. If you add in France, you aren’t going around either. These 4 can cripple just about any maritime nation, if they are have a mind to. Some… Read more »
thats a diff ent point from what John was making…which was to prevent china from moving around its side of the pacific rim….no way you are stopping that. As for world wide choke points….that would prevent stuff from china coming to us..which would be irrelevant anyway as the first thing that happened would be a suspension of any trade between the west and China….so those choke points to and from Europe would be less relevant to China. This conflict will be a pacific and Indian Ocean conflict. Probably some of the most fundamental choke points will be hydrocarbon based choke… Read more »
Its a long coast, but…… once you leave it , Chinese ships have to go past Japan, Guam, Philippines, Taiwan & Vietnam. Either Western Allies, or countries that in the past, have gone to war with China.
Oh & Singapore.
This should give some context to the whole Chinese military vs US military.
https://unherd.com/2023/03/the-myth-of-chinas-military-might/?=frlh
Yes both have issues..but China has been building more. Modern warships that the US and the US has to go to chinas back yard…if we were taking about a conflict further away…China is still nowhere near the US….but the tyranny of distance is still very much a thing you should never ignore.
Remember before February last year when the news was full of trainloads of dilapidated Soviet equipment being brought up to the border. Everyone knew the Russians were truly badly equipped. I would suggest the quality of some of their combat units may have been pretty good back then and even if 50% of your vehicles brake down then it was still a big mass to put across a border. It just seems it was spectacularly badly planned. Remember the Kiev convoy? Would be funny if it was all so pointless 😩
This adds to the concerns regarding Taiwan. “We have a defense industrial base that’s built to achieve first-level deterrence by virtue of the world-class platforms we have deployed,” said Roy Kamphausen, a former China strategist for the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and now president of the National Bureau of Asian Research. But there are serious questions about how we would sustain ourselves in a high-intensity conventional conflict of more than a few weeks in duration.” After decades of consolidation, the industry suffers from a paucity of competition and lacks the kind of “surge capacity” needed to wage… Read more »
As well as being potentially being able to match equipment numbers China has the industrial mass to produce effective low cost weapons like drones. Some don’t even need to be armed, in a war of attrition your enemy having to take out harmless drones because they are indistinguishable from the armed version will win in the end. The current solution of using a $100,000+ missile isn’t sustainable. Laser weapons are being touted as a solution but this has its limitations as cloud, mist and smoke can reduce the effectiveness. Like the UK between the wars creating shadow factories they maybe… Read more »
Cannon fodder being used to man cannon fodder old equipment. Sickening how Putin glibbly sacrifices his people to try to annex his neighbour.
Kinda jealous he has so much old equipment to fall back on when we’ve nothing to replace our tiny number of tanks after cutting too far, too long.
Are we losing tanks at the moment then? Obviously some are going to Ukraine but I can’t see any losses elsewhere!
Hi Jacko. Not to combat, no. But we’ve so few left, in the event of our troops entering combat we’ve nothing in reserve & a tiny tank force to start with thanks to idiotic cuts. In war you lose tanks. We need not only a tank force but reserves but the ability to quickly replace losses. We lack both at the moment.
Your right of course but the days of BAOR are over! It’s down to the European countries to make up the bulk of ground forces with us probably in the Baltics etc. like it or not our priorities are RN&RAF for now. That’s of course assuming it’s the remains of the Orcs we will be up against.
Sadly this is only common sense. Yes, in war you take losses, and you need to replace those losses. Those losses come in the form of both manpower and material.
A military with no reserves isn’t much of a military to be honest.
If Russia only had the military it went into Ukraine with, this war would’ve been over 9 months ago as most of their forces would be fighting with clubs and sticks by now.
To be honest John it depends what you call a military…if you look at the numbers of professional solders the Russian army started with… around 280k…with around half of these being (140kish) solders being professions in the true sense and 140k ish being 2 year short contract solders who where conscripts that signed the contract to get better conditions that the one year conscripts…with probably around 180k conscripts who are not trained as combat solders and used for menial work like cooking, cleaning and basic maintenance. now we know Russian sent in 150k professional solders into the first offensive (… Read more »
Mate exactly my comments early on in the war in regard to the so called professionals in the Russian army. Small amount of professional full time, most being contract soldiers after conscription for the slightly better money and conditions. However same level of non-existent training and basic role specific trade training. In other words, same shite level as the shite conscripts. Cheers.
Yep..Russians only hope was a swift decapitation and the falling apart of Ukraine’s will to fight. When they fucked that operation up Russia was doomed to play out a lose lose cycle…Ukraine is just to big land mass wise..has Eastern European mud seasons that stop any real cross country movement and it had a big enough army that allowed it to burn land for time and shattered Russian units. Putin was an idiot..Russia never had the mass to fight an offensive war of conquest against a close to peer nation..especially one that has a shed load of fighting spirit and… Read more »
Too many yes men probably told Pootin otherwise. Similarly the head of the Army probably said they could easily overmatch the puny Ukrainian Army. He was probably fed the same BS by his yes men underlings on the condition of the Army. So by the time Russia got its first bloody nose, it was too late to pull back without loosing face.
Now it seems, come hell or high water, Russia has to succeed and bugger the cost. It’s not going to end well. I can see it easily dragging til next year. Unless Pootin is taken out.
Taking Putin out worries me more than keeping him in. I can’t see a likely successor that can hold it together. If the Russian Federation falls apart, who end up with the nukes? I would rather an organised end than a WTF.
Why this thought that we have no reserves? We have a Reserve Army and Attrition Reserve AFVs.
We have an Attrition Reserve for our CR2 tanks.
Well considering a NATO 5.56×45 Armour piercing round could go through the sides of a BTR-50 at 100 yards and a 7.62 x51 Armour Piercing can go through the front at 500mm with ease. They also hold 20 troops who have to jump over the sides.
They are not even really prof against small arms if you have AP ammunition. A true mobile coffin.
Clearly the Russian army is Desperately trying to keep some mobility, it’s infantry fighting vehicles and APC numbers must have been decimated (and I don’t mean in the true sense, but way more).
The troops that will be issued these won’t be informed of these facts and will think they’re in an (appropriately) armored vehicle considering it looks like one.
Which will just mean they are dead even quicker…but considering all Russia has left is poorly trained conscripts…it would not really matter if the equipment was decent…so very sad…
It’s a odd one. Russia should have lots of BMPs left. So are they wrecked but still on the books perhaps been stored outside while someone left the BTR-50 inside.
Those versions with the ww2 naval turret on top are special.
Indeed it is. Its not clear yet what the BTR-50 are going to be used for, they can’t all have the 25mm twin turret fitted. Anything with tracks is going to be useful at this time of year.
Really you said that the T62 was only going to be used by the militia s as mobile pill boxes! That plan went well,as shown any armoured vehicle the Orcs have turn up at the front lines pretty quickly!
Ah I remember that great forecast from him in regard to the T62s!!! 😂! But then again he has spent the last 12 months posting shite which he knows is all propaganda and nonsense!
I wonder if they have any of the Lend lease Valentines left?
These same tanks were slaughtered by IDF Centurions in 1967 with a rerun in 1973. I’m sorry but it is laughable to think Russia poses any threat to NATO. Russia is a third world shithole led by a sad old man with small penis syndrome. Change my mind ?
Sorry but whilst the name, T-62, may be the same they are not the same tank as in 1972. The modernisation program includes modern thermal imagers, night sights, added protection, hinged armour, protection against javelins, aft protection against grenade launchers will be fundamentally enhanced. Also they are being deployed primarily as armoured direct fire artillery against dug in troops, or mobile strongpoints. As such they will be much more effective than any BTR and in that role are unlikely to face any Ukrainian tanks. Probably being used in much the same way as the UA will use their Leopard 1,… Read more »
Bollocks🙄it has been reported on Forbes and elsewhere the Orcs can’t even fit modern sights to T80 due to sanctions! Still they should be ok for the breakthrough to the Polish border shouldn’t they?
Found the link for you Johnskie
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraine-situation-report-russian-tanks-reverting-to-cold-war-thermal-sights
JIMK wrote: “”Sorry but whilst the name, T-62, may be the same they are not the same tank as in 1972”” And that is true, but the T62 tanks the Russians are bringing on line is the last iteration of the T62 before it was replaced by the much better T72, which was the T62M which came out in 1983 and is easily recognised by Horseshoe armour fitted around the turret , whilst that armour did improve its armour protection from a frontal ballistic path, it does squat against top attack weapons seeing as the top of the turret is… Read more »
Box ticked Farouk! Interesting dit on YouTube – the Tank Museum :# 107 tank chat 🤔👍
Thanks will have a butchers later on
If the more modern tanks Russia has fielded have been knocked out en-masse then this upgraded relic will fare no better.
And three years before all are done that’s if all the money is not spent on a yacht🙄
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/russia-to-modernize-800-vintage-t-62-tanks-due-to-ukraine-losses-report
Do you actually believe the script you are following Ivan?
FFS when does your utter garbage stop? It’s not even pretending to be able to stand up under the most basic scrutiny! You were a sad laughing stock previously, now you are a desperate, sad and boring laughing stock!
Looks Russia is clearing out its old stocks and maybe readying itself for new tank stocks from wherever? And we’re worried about taking back “old” Challengers from Oman and Jordan! Lol… 😆.
Genuine BTR 50’s. Interesting news. Western military museums and collectors should be putting in their orders now!
As this aricle is about armour, I thought some may be interested in something I spotted in a more global oriented defence forum. The member posted a link to the following article in their German section-
https://armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_industry/germany_to_possibly_buy_large_number_of_boxer_armored_vehicles_made_in_australia.html
It appears Germany may be buying Boxer CRV’s from Australia (Rheinmetal has just opened a factory there). I can only assume the German factories are (or soon will be) maxed out. If Ajax stumbles again, perhaps wheeled CRV becomes an option?
I think there is now more pressure on the MoD to uparm our Boxers. Especially as it’s been stated that they will replace a warrior in the IFV role. A Boxer with a RWS fitted with a 50 Cal, GPMG or GMG simply won’t cut it when facing off against something like a BMP3, let alone a BTR90.
There are a number of off-the-shelf options such as the unmanned Rafeal turret used on the Lithuanian Vilkas Boxer or the Australian combat reconnaissance vehicle (CRV). Failing that use the Ajax or even the BAe turret for the Warrior upgrade.
An IFV, by definition, has a cannon (not a MG) with 360 deg traverse.
Even changing the RWS for one with 30mm+7.62+ATGM would be a start. Most of the makers of heavy RWS have them, including the likes of EOS & Konsberg. I know some have been trialed on Boxer elsewhere.
This article from thinkdefence from November 2022 gives a good up to date detail on Boxer & a list of current & prototype modules that are out there or being looked at. It includes a LM CTAS 40mm turret version.
https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2022/11/boxer-armoured-vehicle-details-and-variants/
Options is one thing Boxer is not short of.
I wonder if you look at this from a russian perspective if the decision actually makes sense, even had they got modern ones been available.
It seems the top end units are suffering badly from Ukraine anti tank missiles / artillery, which means their armour is effectively doing very little. As such the older units having weaker armour isn’t actually an issue, if the better armoured ones are going to be taken out anyway. This still gives the infantry support against small arms fire, which I assume their armour can still defeat.
T62s going up against Abrams, Leo2s and Ch2s, lambs to the slaughter I think. I seem to remember a tank battle in the Yom Kipper War called the Valley of Tears, 100 Centurians up against 1000+ T55s/T62s. The result was not good for the Russian tanks over 500 destroyed. Possibly the Russians are thinking in a Russian way which would be to use the old tanks to deplete Ukrainian weapons/ammo supplies and then punch through with modern armour. If that is the case then it shows Putins regard for the young men and women of his nation.
Yes but these are going to be ultra modern T62s with a padlock to stop the turrets flying off😄
Bet moral is really high in Russian armoured units.
I find this hard to understand. In its day the T62 was an ok tank, but it was outclassed by the Chieftain and M60. Yes it was the first operational tank with a smoothbore main gun. But it is 115mm, not 125mm as used in the T64, T72, T80 and T90 tanks. This means it will need new logistics tail to support. If facing a modern Western tank it will be massively outclassed. Unlike newer Russian tanks it doesn’t have an autoloader but a human loader. This will need training, though by Russian standards will be quite short and likely… Read more »
Ye!
The T60 was decent but imagine it against a challenger III!
Actually Davey, theT62 was outclassed by the Centurion (with the L7 105mm) to start with.
Fair one, but then came the T64.
Interesting that some here advocate Britain having kept back Chieftain tanks. This article should illustrate the folly of retaining very old AFVs for future wars. Those T-62s and BTR-50s will just be ‘duty targets’.
In the case of Ch2, UK will run out of rifled 120mm before Russia runs out of T62 to take out. Somewhere, someone forgot that logistics wins wars. All this stuff is well known. Why does no one give a f**k till after the sh*t hits the fan.
DJ, do you know how much rifled 120mm ammo we have left? Some suggest buying stock from Oman, but with only 38 CR2s they may not have much stock to sell to us.
Fresh out of refurb T-62MV
https://i.servimg.com/u/f33/19/32/14/78/t6211.jpg
Target mover, target engage, target stop, next target! However not sure where they would store the rolled up carpet, black gloves and ski masks in the issue rape kit….maybe a small storage bin to the rear?
These vehicles are only meant to deploy troops and kill people…at that they are very good…also they can do a lot of damage before being destroyed…The T62 was OK in its day although it wouldn’t fare well in an open tank battle against modern NATO tanks it would be an effective infantry support weapon…don’t underestimate Russian Tank doctrine..it had proved effective in the past.
It looks like one of the tanks they will be up against are these Leopard 1s.
https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2023_global_security_army_industry/denmark_confirms_that_100_leopard_1a5_tanks_for_ukraine_will_be_ready_in_the_spring.html