A report by the Defence Committee concludes that the UK Armed Forces have key capability and stockpile shortages and are losing personnel faster than they can recruit. Let’s take a look at the issues facing the Royal Navy.
Read the full report by clicking here.
The Defence Committee said:
“We have been told that the Navy is undergoing a “maritime renaissance” and that the UK is moving towards a maritime strategy (which prioritises a naval response above land or air capabilities). The Chief of the Defence Staff told us that the Royal Navy made up 20–25% of NATO maritime capacity (as compared to the RAF making up 10% of NATO’s air capacity).
Despite this, there are still capability gaps—Nick Childs pointed to the ability to deploy a carrier strike capability being hindered by “questions over aircraft that you could put there, the airborne early warning capability aboard, the actual weapons capability and integration of stand off weapons that would make a difference in terms of being able to take the fight to the enemy”. He also questioned whether the SSN force—platforms and personnel—would be able to cope with the demands of deploying simultaneously to the Euro-Atlantic and the Indo-Pacific. General Lord Houghton pointed to the shortage of available vessels and further noted that he found the high proportion of naval equipment which was inoperable to be ‘quite disturbing’.”
Dr Rowan Allport of the Human Security Centre produced a detailed list of what he perceived to be Royal Navy readiness gaps and capability shortfalls which included:
- Delays to the Type 26 frigate programme which have resulted in the Type 23 frigate force being run on far past its expected lifespan, meaning sustainment of the platform had become increasingly difficult and expensive.
- The reliance on RFA Fort Victoria as the only RFA solid stores ship is compounded by the fact that it is at reduced readiness due to personnel shortages. The replacement Fleet Solid Support Ships are (currently) due to enter service from 2028 onwards—meaning that RFA Fort Victoria will more than likely be required for the Carrier Strike Group deployment when it travels to the Indo-Pacific in 2025.
- The availability of SSNs has dropped as a result of delays in the Astute-class attack submarine building programme. Even once all seven Astutes are in service, it is questionable whether the force will be able to sustain their current tasks and the additional deployments to Australia and wider region from 2026 onwards.
- Delays to the Power Improvement Project (PIP) upgrade on the Type 45s to replace the two existing diesel generators with three more powerful models have impacted availability of the vessels.
- The Littoral Response Group (South), which will operate in the Indo-Pacific, will be led by RFA Argus—the ship “is now 42 years old and will inevitably be increasingly prone to mechanical and other issues as time passes”.
- The Royal Navy’s Merlin HM2 fleet has only 30 aircraft but is over-tasked, responsible for both most Navy airborne anti-submarine warfare missions92 and Airborne Surveillance and Control taskings.93
- Both the Type 31 frigate94 and the Type 2695 will receive the Mk.41 vertical launching system but will therefore require significant additional procurement of munitions for their utility to be fully realised.
- Delays to the Dreadnought-class ballistic missile submarine programme have resulted in the Vanguard-class having to continue in service beyond their design life. While the material state of the vessels is publicly unknown, there are reasons to believe they will require additional servicing and maintenance as they significantly exceed their lifespan.96
- The reduction in numbers of Royal Marines and the move “towards a forward-based littoral model utilising small units supported by advanced technology”97 raises questions about their resilience in hostile environments.98
These gaps are compounded by the efforts which have previously been made to improve the availability of Royal Navy vessels. Nick Childs described these as “in part, robbing Peter to pay Paul within the fleet in terms of stores, key equipment to cannibalise and sometimes personnel. It will be a difficult problem to fix”.
“We raised many of the above issues in our 2021 Report which looked at the role and capabilities of the Royal Navy. In response to questions on naval readiness, the Chief of the Defence Staff told us that the Royal Navy was “on the up” with significant transformation between 2020 and 2030 as it “becomes a carrier Navy again, that alongside the Air Force goes from fourth generation jets to fifth generation jets, and that then has, by dint of previous investment, 22 ships and submarines coming through”, citing the Fleet Solid Support Ships, Type 26, and both Astute and Dreadnought-class submarines as examples. He also stressed that all commitments (across defence) are being met.”
The First Sea Lord also pointed to future capabilities as being the key to readiness:
“We are going through a tremendously exciting transformation at the moment: the Type 26, which is a world-leading ASW frigate; the Type 31s, which are a really innovative way of thinking differently about a general purpose frigate; and the new submarines that we have on order. All these are just about to arrive, in strategic terms. For us, that represents one of the single biggest transformations in the history of the Navy—when we genuinely move from an analogue Navy to a digital Navy. It is something almost as powerful as when Jackie Fisher, my predecessor many back, took the Navy from sail and coal into oil, which conceptually drove a different way of thinking and operating. For me … the first thing I would really look forward to is the acceleration to these new platforms, which will be more available than the old ones they replace.”
However, both First Sea Lord and the Director Force Generation of the Royal Navy (Rear Admiral Steve Moorhouse) acknowledged that there were further steps to be taken, in terms of maintenance of vessels, both increasing lethality and managing stockpiles.
The only good news about any of these reports is that they are finally being brought up by the national media. I’m sure Joe Public will accept certain sacrifices if they understand how limited our military capabilities are. All we ever hear from politicians are that we are meeting our nato commitments. Personally I’m not convinced that nato will resemble its current format by say 2040 and we should be preparing now accordingly.
I don’t see our naval capabilities are limited, every platform from T23 to T45 and astute are pretty much best in class in the world, we have better Amphibious and carrier strike capability than almost anyone outside the USA. We don’t have enough frigates to patrol the worlds oceans single handed but then it’s not been our job to patrol the worlds ocean single handed since 1941. Our only conceivable threat is Russia and its forces are a complete joke. The UK could likely take on The Russian navy solo without breaking a sweat much less with the rest of… Read more »
Apologies, when I said limited capabilities I didn’t mean the quality of the platforms or the skill and dedication of our brave servicemen and women. But at the moment we are helping Ukraine, keeping sea lanes and trade routes open and have just about to start a large scale NATO exercise. Our eyes are constantly being drawn eastwards. These are a lot of pies we have our fingers in, and rightly so. Problem is we are running out of fingers. I’ve always taken the view that most of the world sees us brits as good, reliable allies/partners who have there… Read more »
For a long time our credability has been sabotaged by our dwindling capabilities. That’s made our enemies confident enough to become more aggressive & ambitious. The PM soundbites that, “It’s our duty to protect innocent lives and preserve freedom,” but has allowed the forces to run down to dangerous levels that put us all at risk, especially those who serve. It’s surely time to stump up funding to plug the gaps in the budget as an absolute mimimum. Better still begin at least a modest re-armament program to enable us to meet our commitments. The threats may not allow us… Read more »
I agree. If we want to have influence and be relevant in the world then having the ability to station 1000 commandos/marines or having a multi missile ship or f35’s flying over friendly territory in any region of the world at any time is far more likely to influence than a strongly worded statement via the UN. It’s time to decide if we want to be a world power or regional power. The original point I was trying to make is that finally it’s making the national media and that discussions that are had on sites like this are had… Read more »
In capability nobody is saying we are deficient. What we can’t be is in two places at once. if you count up the escorts that you need for LRG North, LRG South, TAPS, any CSGs you have out and about and then throw in NATO commitments, where is the spare? The simple and overwhelming fact is that we simply do not have enough ships to meet all of our commitments. You cannot run a ship non-stop, it needs maintenance, refits, technology updates. Those all take vessels out of service and we have no flexibility to do that unless we are… Read more »
The Soviet Union was not a technological threat pre WW2 but it had a massive population. Russia is no where near what the Soviet Union was, its population is collapsing and will be smaller than Britains before the end of the century on UN projections. In between us and Russia is also the European Union which is 400 million people with the second biggest economy in the world and behind us is the USA with 300 million and the biggest economy in the world. Everything from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean and now Black Sea is a NATO lake. I’m… Read more »
Genuine question for Jim, do you have a current affiliation with the Navy?
Whilst what you say is correct, you need to be aware of the threat that Russia poses on multiple angles. Is it Russia that is getting Iran to start causing more trouble in the middle east? etc. Once you start to see how so many things are connected it starts to make one much more aware of the threat Russia, and to a significantly greater degree China, pose to everyone in the west and our way of life. Unfortunately with the way China is going, it will be much better to support America fighting them then wait for America to… Read more »
The UK has a higher proportion of TAPS ships, MPA, ASW helicopters, attack submarines and fighter jets to Russian submarines and bombers than at the end of the Cold War. At the same time Russian equipment is lots of the same stuff whilst all of our stuff is much better.
We are efficient in every way, no ships to defend the one carrier with planes (the other is just a target), no tanks, no guns, no air force…. Ffks we couldn’t defend the Isle of White if the houtis had a ship
Jim…. You are either totally right, or utterly deluded….. I hope it’s the former.
Read the report. Interesting to see it starts by saying it is hard now to source the information to make an assessment! Whilst we typically have access to some of the best kit and people in the world, there is not enough of it, or them. Nor it would appear are we capable of replacing much that has been used. The result of many years underfunding, and perhaps not the best decision making, starting with the politicians. Scarily we are not alone in the West, but may be in a more parlous state. As someone said, the best news is… Read more »
But not enough for what? If we are fighting a major war it’s with NATO and as the report points out NATO has an Airforce 10 times our size and a Navy 5 times our size. That’s a lot of force and no one in the world comes any where near matching that in terms of numbers or quality. A what scale do we expect to operate at that would make a material difference to NATO? If we doubled our budget it would add 10% to NATO combined Airforce, that’s hardly doing much. If the Trump gets his way and… Read more »
Ships, Submarine, Missiles, Shells…..Even operating with NATO they say we are short. No one expects a UK (alone) v’s Russian conflict.
It seems like many others politicians, military etc… are concerned.
Maybe the ‘Im (sic) not that concerned’ attitude is the Cabinet view.
How much of that NATO capability is down to the US ..if they have to conentrate on the Chinese then exactly how much is left what percentage do we the take up?
I said this before to you… if increasing our budget to 10% wont provide that much that by the same argurment decreasing it by 1% will do even less so lets do that then- I assume that would be ok ?.
Your use of figures to back up you position is severely flawed.
There are only three conventional (excluding nuclear and cyber) threats to British territory. Russian bombers, Russian submarines and Argentina (non existent ATM).
Using proportions compared to the end of the Cold War, the ratio of TAPS ships, ASW helicopters, attack submarines and MPA to Russian submarines has increased in our favour.
Similarly the ratio of RAF fighter jets to Russian bombers has also increased in our favour.
Finally the Falklands are a lot safer now than they were then.
The UK is better defended against all three threats than it was at the end of the Cold War.
The Falklands has 1 opv with a 30mm and MPA has 4 typhoon fighter jets an opv is not equipped the same as a Frigate which used too patrol the Falklands,.And with a new president in Argentina, who is looking to upgrade their Navy both surface and sub surface how long before the Seas around the islands become less safe
The last time a T23 was down South was 2017. Coincidentally 2017 was the last year Argentina had an operational submarine, and when it lost the majority of its trained submarine crew.
Argentina has 4 A4s available at any one time.
With a pathetic air force and no sub surface threat, why waste an escort down south? Mount pleasant could be reinforced within two days.
Argentina have been saying they will rearm for decades. Hasn’t happened yet. Why bother with hypotheticals?
The new president is striving for much closer relations with the UK.
Are you living in cloud cookoo land , it’s certainly not the real world
T45 is most definitely not the best in class destroyer. US AAW destroyers already have TBMD capability in operation whereas T45 won’t have that capability until 2032 and the expenditure of a further £400 million. We’re having to spend £150 million and put up with each ship being unavailable for months to get their power plant working optimally. We’re also having to spend additional money to give them an anti-ship capability and they have such a poor sonar that we reportedly don’t even man it any more. It also has no land attack missile and carries a toy town lightweight… Read more »
A couple of points
1) you are right about the ABM issue it’s a major weakness..but 2)against all other airborne threats at present the T45 has the edge over the ABS.
3) The type 45 is an AAW destroyer…the RN wants it doing that not undertaking navel strike……
4) the type 45 can take any small ship fight that includes a Merlin…..which is the best ASW rotor in the world.
Thanks for the reply Jonathan. It’s subjective whether T45 or AB are better against other airborne threats so you’re perfectly entitled to your opinion on that. I’d point out that AB’s have at least twice the SAM load out when you take into account quad packed ESSM and Sea RAM. The new ECM capabilities now being fitted into the AB’s also seem to be world beating. My point about land strike is that the AB and T45 cost about the same so T45 should cheaper if we decided to leave out capabilities such as ASW and land attack which the… Read more »
Horses for courses and comparing ship costs is incredibly subjective and difficult to calculate because it’s relative to standard of living, equipment, staff costs and capability. But generally and this applies to most classes US like for like with UK are 40/60 % higher and don’t even go near RAN or RCN costs. As for the missile load out yep at present the AB’s carry nearly twice a T45. But no one has ever yet said what the install plan is for CAMM and if I were to make a guess it may not be what is assumed. Poland has… Read more »
Yes, what the Poles are putting onto their ships the RN can also do on their T31s. The additional 24 CAMM on the T45 sounds pathetic and not great value for money. Going for 32 would half decent. They can move the gym to the back of the ship somewhere. The weapons load out capacity should take priority.
Hi Steve the missile numbers are a bit of a red herring, Aster is a hit to kill missile with a profoundly high intercept probability…so high infact the RN doctrine is one target one missile..USN doctrine is two missiles for one target to ensure intercept…Aster is a better missile. the T45 radar is also a hell of a lot higher off the ground that an ABs and that matters a huge amount…for detection and intercept range ( radar horizon is a hard block to detection). I would not call the wildcat a bad navel rotor…it’s profoundly good some jobs especially… Read more »
No doubt the AB is the worlds best all round general purpose destroyer and the best ABM platform. T45 was tailor made to intercept sea skimming missiles. For the sounds of what’s going on in the Red Sea at least one sea skimming missile seems to have got past the AB’s missile defence. It’s almost impossible to design a platform to be an AAW asset and an ASW asset. The power requirements for AAW will inevitably make a lot of noise. The USN however has traditionally leaned on the UK for the ASW and MCM missions while we lean on… Read more »
T45 is far superior to the unupgraded ABs (only one or two ABs have been upgraded) ABs have just one radar that’s mounted a lot lower than both of T45s radars. The bulk of US AD is still SM2 meaning two missiles have to be fired at every single target, compared to 1 Aster. The loadout of USS John Finn in 2018 was 32 TLAM, 6 ASROC, 8 SM3, 16 SM6, 30 SM2 and 16 ESSM. Taking out the first three missiles and cutting SM2 in half, that works out to be 47 targets (excluding ballistic missiles) that could be… Read more »
Thanks for the information on that example AB load out. That’s really interesting. I stated at the outset that T45 is a good AAW platform thanks to its radar and missiles. What I was challenging was the contention that it was the best destroyer in it’s class i.e. the world’s best destroyer. It isn’t. Neither is it the world’s worst. I would say it was the world’s best AAW destroyer if it had TBM capability but it won’t until 2032. In terms of Wildcat, saying it would be decent if it had sonar gear is like saying I’d be Mr… Read more »
Hi Steve, I think the issue you are grappling with is that there is no specific definition of what a destroyer is…for the RN and UK a destroyer is very specifically a AAW specialist platform…for the US navy a destroyer is a multi mission warship….so if you follow the RN paradigm of what is a good destroyer the Type 45 is better as it’s a far more focused AAW platform that can engage AAW threats more effectively than an AB….from a U.S.N point of view an AB is the best destroyer in the world as its good at AAW..great at… Read more »
Thanks for your reply mate. I didn’t start this debate about “worlds best destroyer”. Such claims are a silly statement to make for the reasons that you state. I was responding to someone who said that it was fine to have so few T45’s as they were class leading. Just for fun, in terms of AAW, I think it’s a draw between T45, the latest AB’s and the French and Italian Horizons. T45 has a better radar and missiles than the AB. I think that the AB makes up for that with twice the number of missiles, TBMD capability and… Read more »
The US always uses hull cost, they never split R&D between units for cost. Of course per ship, ABs R&D is much lower than T45, but that will be the case for any ship Britain makes so R&D can’t really be included. The 2.2b doesn’t include R&D. If you’re counting upgrading the Aster missiles to block 1, you also have to count upgrading the SM2s and ESSM. BMD will come to the T45s before 2032, the first is already having CAMM fitted. 2032 is just when all 6 have CAMM and therefore Block 1 Aster 30. Half the ABs don’t… Read more »
The original post I responded to said T45 was the best in class destroyer so I’m comparing it with other best in class destroyers such as the latest AB’s. I completely agree with you that the decision to build the first 28 AB’s without a helicopter was bonkers. I understand that the USN cost per AB does include R&D. If you can show me a link that proves otherwise then that would be great as I’d have learned something. I included the TBM update cost for T45 to make it comparable with AB which, as another poster set out in… Read more »
T45 propulsion issue isn’t because of job creation, Rolls Royce makes some of the best engines. The issue stems from going for an innovative design rather than a safer option which would also have been RR. The issue is with American components anyway. You can never make everything here. F35 being made in America is fine because we still make Typhoon here. Without Yeovil we wouldn’t make any helicopters here. I won’t post any links as my comment will get flagged, but a UKDJ article from a few days ago says IOC for Aster 30 Block 1 is 2028 when… Read more »
If you read the article on this website it directly quotes Geoff Hoon, the Secretary of State who made the decision, as saying that it was realised that the T45 propulsion system was more expensive and higher technical risk than alternatives but it was chosen to showcase and support British industry. We most definitely did pay more for a flawed propulsion system for job creation purposes. I agree with you. Some things we should build and some we buy. I’m 100% happy not to have the capability to build the Lynx Lemon in peace or war. Thanks for your links,… Read more »
Saying it was done for jobs is suggesting that RR was the wrong choice which is not the case. It was the ambitious proposal but the alternatives were also Rolls Royce engines which create/sustain the same number of jobs. Without Wildcat Leonardo would’ve closed Yeovil. That means we can’t build any helicopters anymore, and have no input on the helicopters the armed forces buy. Yeovil also builds Merlin and has built AW139 and will build AW149 and UAVs. Wildcat can be fitted with sonobuoys, making it a good helicopter. The fact it isn’t has nothing to do with the quality… Read more »
It’s a fair point about the T45 engine choice not being about job creation. However, the Secretary of State’s comments do show that it was for industrial/commercial reasons rather than operational military needs. That saddled us with a more expensive and flawed design which has had huge impacts on operational availability. I want to see decisions taken based on military needs first and industrial, commercial or job creation reasons second. As you say, Yeovil builds other helicopters so would not have closed but some folks would have lost their jobs. Losing your job is horrible for the people involved and… Read more »
Without Wildcat, Leonardo would’ve lost interest and left. They only moved over to all Merlins being built here off the back of that. Without wildcat the factory would’ve shut.
Wildcat does have a data link, no sonobuoys would’ve affected any helicopter we bought as the Navy doesn’t want to put sonobuoys on the wildcats.
As for BMD, there’s a new UKDJ article which states IOC is 2028.
I don’t know if Yeovil would have closed or not and neither do you. But if it had then that’s sad but preferable to the military getting a lemon of a helicopter. Wildcat is now being fitted with a data link having operated without one for years. This is at extra cost meaning Lynx is even worse value for money. Unless you can provide evidence rather than opinion, I’ll continue to believe that the lack of sonar boys is due to political penny-pinching rather than operational considerations. Penny-pinching that wouldn’t be needed if we stopped using the defence budget for… Read more »
Without Wildcat, Leonardo would’ve lost interested and left. They only moved over to all Merlins being built here off the back of that. Without wildcat the factory would’ve shut.
As for BMD, there’s a new UKDJ article which states IOC is 2028.
Where does the assumption come from that an interceptor fired from a T45 will never miss?
Not an assumption, just doctrine. RN fires a single Aster at each target, USN has to fire at least 2 SM2s to achieve a similar kill probability, both those SM2s could also miss of course.
It’s also possible that the aster could miss as well. I hate to be banging this drum once again here but anyone that thinks that any weapon has a 100% success rate is living in fantasy land and I have some fine beach front property to see them. The US military in general places a lot of emphasis on the concept of “shoot, look, shoot”. It’s not due to a capability limitation either as they do the same when firing more capable interceptors than the aster series of missiles. They do it with sm6 or the pac3 sme, or even… Read more »
I have never seen any evidence that the RN has an operational practice of only firing one missile. It’s often stated as if it was a truth by T45 fans to justify why those ships carry half the missile load of their US equivalents. I suspect that much depends on the type of target. If it’s a slow moving drone or older generation ASM that you might get a couple of shots at then you might fire a single missile knowing that if it misses you’d get another chance to engage. If it’s a modern, fast moving ASM then you’d… Read more »
Exactly, I haven’t seen this claim made of only having to fire one missile from any official source. I’ve only seen it on these boards where people seem to have a habit of making things up.
SM2 does not have an active seeker. Aster does. The standard doctrine for missiles without an active seeker is to fire two missiles, this is the same with other missiles.
Patriot is a good example. Patriot missiles were fired in pairs until they were upgraded.
I have no real life experience with RN doctrine, many experienced people on this site do however and have said the same thing.
And these people are wrong. As I’ve said in my previous post, you can find numerous examples of the US firing two sm6 in testing and the sm6 is an active homing missile, generally more capable than any of the aster missiles.
SM2 doesn’t have an active seeker. That is why it has to be fired in pairs.
Aegis operates off that as the majority of its missiles (ESSM and SM2) are like this.
I never said Aster had a 100% success rate. It will have a high success rate, 98% apparently but that will vary with type of target.
Every single target will have at least two SM2s fired at it, only 2% will have Aster 30 fired at it.
US doctrine for SM2s has been a lot longer than a few years ago, it’s been decades.
“98% apparently but that will vary with type of target.” Do you have a source for that 98% figure? I’m very interested in finding out more about this. “Every single target will have at least two SM2s fired at it, only 2% will have Aster 30 fired at it. This is simply not true. Not even close to being true. And at no point did say that firing 2 missiles was something new. Please read my post again. You missed the main point that I was making in that the study made the case that the highest chance of an… Read more »
If they put a couple MK41s on the T45s that could then give additional land, ABM, anti-sub/ship ability while still keeping its primary AAW function. They could also try for additional NSM space permitting. And if they replace the 4.5″ gun, upgrade the sonar and Wildcats it could all end up being the price of an additional T31.
A little harsh Steve! Cost cutting as ever was the issue here, along with poor choices made, the good news is the shortcomings are at last being addressed. The lack of dipping sonar on the Wildcat is derived from yet another poor decision, i.e the Wildcat itself, that should never have been ordered. But we are stuck with it, so we might as well shoehorn in the already developed dipping sonar. Feeding the defence industrial base is more important than actually defending the country you know, tail wags the dog as ever…. I don’t have a particular axe to grind… Read more »
All very fair points mate. I perhaps was a little harsh but I hate politicians getting of the hook for poor procurement decisions because folks are prepared to argue that kit is great just because it has made in the UK stamped on it. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn’t e.g. Type 26vis fantastic but T31 is not fit for purpose given the lack of a sonar.
Sonar dipping will soon be done by drones so I don’t see it as such an issue any more.
When? In 2040? we’re talking about the here and now
Not all ABs have TBMD capability. Its limited to a few very niche Aegis Baseline 9 fits. Only now are USN ABs coming into service with an AESA radar but even these still need tracker illuminators for most of the SM2 missiles they use. Tube numbers matter as does what’s in them. T45 with Viper has a very high PK for a single missile shot. An AB using SM2 needs 2 x Missiles to achieve an equivalent PK. With 96 tubes on an AB thats 48 Engagements in the AAW world, the same capability as a T45. When you add… Read more »
Interested points as ever GB. Bear in mind though that the post I was responding to said T45 was class leading i.e. better than any other destroyer in the world. It was in that context that I pointed out that AB has vastly superior ASW capabilities which it does. I was arguing about the ASW capabilities of the two destroyers in comparison to each other. I wasn’t comparing AB ASW capabilities with those of a specialist ASW frigate, especially the T23 which, when operating Merlin, might validly have an argument to be best in class ASW frigate.
“Not all ABs have TBMD capability. Its limited to a few very niche Aegis Baseline 9 fits.”
This is incorrect. Every AB since 2010 have been built with baseline 9 and ships built prior have been retrofitted with baseline 9 as well. In the 2023 congressional report they had 50+ ships with it and the usn expect to have 65 surface combatants(AB and ticos) fitted with some version of baseline 9 by 2025.
Our forces are in a dire state.. stagnant budgets badly managed. Our carriers at present are no more capable than Russia’s. At least Russia has naval aircraft on its carrier..the RN has to go cap in hand to the RAF for aircraft to put on said broken down carriers .the type 23 are floating rust buckets and in a terrible state with most not fit for sea even if crew can be found … seriously sell what ever it is you are smoking ..you’d make a bob or two.as for 24 frigates / destroyers being enough in my day 54… Read more »
Are you mainlining when you wrote this post?
God in Heaven, give your head a wobble.
It depends what you mean by “Joe Public.” Many people that make up that staggeringly diverse collection of people are not interested in stepping up and taking sacrifice. When you can no longer show your country’s flag in fear of upsetting illegal immigrants who don’t share our culture and have no intention whatsoever of being “British,” whatever that term means these days, its a non-starter. I’ll wager most of those willing to step up and take sacrifices are far too old to be drafted. And those at the typical fighting age 18,19,20 are not interested. At all. They are voting… Read more »
Why would people join up when pay and pensions have been eroded so much. Once they have used and abused you , you’re out on the street and the illegals get better support than those who need it most.
Yes the British majority are being dictated too by a minority who live in our country curtesy of lax policies and who hate everything about our customs and heritage and lifestyle yet they can do whatever they want with impunity when breaking laws by playing the R xxx card and our infiltrated legal system defends them
Yes but on the positive side, we have…. ermmm, oh hang on….. ummm…. ummmm ….
Sombre reading. The government need to get a grip.
What with Sunak in charge…good luck with that one…he has his green card at the ready waiting to hot foot it across to the US after the election debacle (when the Tories are eviscerated). What the left wing liberal Tories have done to the party…it doesn’t resemble the Tories anymore…”microaggressions” from Ms Noakes and “not about asylum” Ms Keegan… You think these people worry about the army, navy and air force when they don’t know their own pronouns….I may have actually misgendered someone accidentally…god forbid and then the world caves in on me….Forget about the Russian’s or Chinese we have… Read more »
Yes, microaggressions are so tiresome, somewhat like bad grammar.
Prey dearheart,
what would you be
In a creak
Without a…
Creeks are so much more accommodating.
Did you intend the irony ….
Winding him in like a bluefin tuna.
I think he’s missed the part about malicious communication.
And who do you think has millions on x, tik tok and other Social Media accounts to amplify microaggression yep Russia and China. They must be patting themselves on the back at the direction the UK and the West in general is heading.
Yup. People have been conceived, born and had children of their own in the time it has taken to get T26 into service, leaving the remaining T23s to soldier on well past their design spec. This was compounded by the decision to gradually shrink the escort fleet and the decision to cut the 2087 order from 16 to 8. Secessive governments from multiple parties at fault. As Daniele and I have often said, cutting FG was one of the more moronic decisions of 2010. Delays to the new FSS hulls are unforgivable. Ugh! Delays to PIP are understandable and hopefully… Read more »
Mmm interesting analogy and if a T23 were a person they could legally be a Grandparent.
“RM have an identity crisis. What does HMG want them to be?”
Not the deployable Brigade they once were, mate.
We have no need to worry about the carriers though! It has been suggested on the other thread about carriers that the Govt will NOT deploy them anywhere the paint might get scratched! To valuable apparently😳
Can’t believe when POW had this problem and ended up in dry dock ,didn’t bother to check QE .A former Admiral was saying today on GBN that’s what you get for using cheap parts 🙄 🇬🇧
The whole reason the issue was found was because POW had a similar problem.
At the time QE obviously didn’t have this problem as she sailed off the the US and was operating for an entire year after the POW issue.
Our military personnel are second to none. Our political leadership are second to last. Since 2010 the Conservative mal-administration have placed the whole country in peril by first stripping the Armed Services bare then bigging themselves up while financing an inadequate and glacial equipment program. Now a war is looking frighteningly close will they finally commit to the realities of rearmament? We need pragmatists now not narcissists!
They can dress it up how they like , lack of investment has led to a shortage of sailors and ships being in service well past their retirement date while production delays are hampering the delivery of new frigates ( why is it taking so long to get these hulls in the water ?) . There is a massive shortage of hulls , both surface and sub and the carriers are turning into white elephants , constantly in port and nowhere near enough jets or escorts to allow them to operate as they were designed to do . It’s time… Read more »
Manning & recruitment could be solved fairly quickly & simply by bringing recruitment back in house rather than being farmed out to private leeches who simply play the system to scam as much as possible for the least actual delivery. That, better pay & conditions for those who serve us at risk to life & limb, plus what also would help is a sensible program to rebuild & maintain the fleet with no capability gapped-so that our sailors feel they’re not being risked in a dangereously underfunded debacle.
They haven’t got the manpower to recruit in-house.
Say you got your wish and it got brought in-house Tommorow that would be a minimum of 1,000 service personnel taken off the board to man the NRC, ACCs, Outreach Teams and support elements of recruitment to a minimum level with a spiralling wage bill and doesn’t even address the root causes of pay, accommodation etc that put people off joining.
I did my bit and then some, and I’ve got PTSD to show for it. But it’s up to the youth and the next generations to decide what kind of country they will be, or what military capability they wish to have, and most importantly, how they wish to engage with their neighbour’s as either sovereign British citizens, or as I often hear from the younger generation, many are instead, a “EU citizen” or the laughable “world citizen.” Apparently these two are far preferred to the old and silly notion of “British.” Especially amongst a lot of GEN Z. I… Read more »
Dear Rob, Thanks for your service from a man in his late 40s (me)….I too lament what has happened to the UK. Unfortunately the left infiltrated all the educational systems in the UK (I can tell you that definitively from experience). They just did a better job at brainwashing the next generation. When we are both long gone they’ll be the ones picking up the pieces when the wheels come of this nation – as they surely will. They are heading for severe mental illness and eventual civil war as well…but without the mental capacity to deal with the real… Read more »
Cobblers. You haven’t watched Rugby League.
I regularly watch rugby league and you are talking about a tiny minority of the general population that may still hold some patriotic virtues. Come and see parts of North London…and you will see the true extent of the issues in the UK. However, I think my words are probably lost on you. What I would say David is that the next election will be won by Labour (most likely with a landslide victory) but it will be a pyrrhic victory. The next ten years in the UK will see turbulence like you have never seen before. The main political… Read more »
I’m a British European who converses, badly, in 3 languages; my 4th language of English is awful.
I served and when asked continued to deliver; not sure this generation have forgotten that if called.
Should you be in doubt, come watch Millom Amateur Rugby League in action.
That is a place you get your recruits – brawlers in PARA, thinkers in Navy, small towns should be our focus.
British European surely that is an Oxymoron in terms….What the hell is a British European?
Well. Born in Germany to British parents who speaks 3 European languages and someone who is most definitely not gammon.
So you were registered with the British authorities in Germany that makes you just British doesn’t it?
Jacko he is British….he’s just one of those pro-EU types that’s probably trying to make a point…Unfortunately, for him it’s a word vomit that left wingers make (British European). Now if he had said I’m a dual national with both a British passport and a German passport that would make sense. I hold my hand to my head when people make these statements as they appear like self-important fools….
I am just British, Jacko.
I’m English too rhe core one of my Grandfather’s lay in a Flanders field his son my uncle in another CWG somewhere my father was RNR I served RN my wife served TA both my Sons served one RM and one RCT I wear my Veterans badge with pride It’s a shame I look around and no longer recognise the Country I and my forebears Defended that’s all I’m saying
Yes, and my father served 26 years, his brother, my uncle gave his life in Aden and Grand Dad worked down the pits in WW2 having served in WW1, and I also served. However, the tosh and cobblers coming out of someone on this site is a bit much given how much we rely on our friends from Nepal, the Commonwealth and the small fact that more Indians gave their lives for the British Army than most could imagine. Do we wish to go anti-European? Well, why don’t we look at 308, 309, 310 and oh yes, 303 Squadrons in… Read more »
Do you condone those that climb and desecrate War memorials waving a foreign flag since last year and the Wetropliton police handing back their flags and flagpoles .But if a person who wishes too Fly the Flag of the Union has to get permission seems the door of equality in Policing swings one way and we have too watch on there’s a saying ” Give them an inch and they’ll take a mile ” .And those who we elected have allowed it
The flag of the Union is my rallying point and along with any Regimental Standards should be defended to the hilt. Do you condone the continued denigration of European nationals and those of Commonwealth nations who have given their all to the UK? Do you condone the continued denigration of a small number of legal refugees seeking shelter on our shores by crossing the Channel? Do you condone comments from a former Home Secretary that the Royal Navy should, literally, push the boats back (sic)? Do you condone the huge LEGAL migration by this Government for people seeking refuge from… Read more »
Utter tosh David….utter tosh….I can’t believe you you actually so many lies and disinformation.
Oh sorry Andrew, brightest of the bright
Wielding the sword of might
I miss your erudition
That could allow me to express my contrition
That my life and this country’s history,
Is for you just a story.
Pray tell
And educate us well.
I condone all those who Worm they way in too this Country with scant regard for what this country stands for .Have no legal reason for being here play the Refugee card yet come from a safe European country then protest in the heart of London celebrating their Country’s independence waving their Country’s flag whilst climbing over monuments Legitimate Refugees ? There are a lot of Brits who are in need of help especially EX service personnel sorry lads back of the queue
So in the final year of Brexit where only FIVE people were allowed to remain, you think that since Brexit, things have gone well.
And by inference, you do condone the politicisation and discrimination against people lawfully claiming asylum; you do condone the Royal Navy literally killing people mid channel by pushing back the boats.
Who did you serve with again? Could you tell me their history about people in distress?
Give your head a massive wobble.
Oh, sorry, where are your Gr8 GGGGGGGGG Grand parents from? You didn’t answer.
I was texting aboutcthe Albanians and if you want too go that far back in my Ancestry my Family Hail from Wiltshire probably helped erect Stonehenge may even have designed it as well
If you look carefully at the 1951 UN convention it clearly states that those seeking asylum must do in the first safe country they enter. This is a legal obligation on those claiming asylum. Very few people know this fact. Indeed. under international law countries may lawfully remove asylum seekers to safe third countries on the grounds that they could have claimed asylum there. The system is antiquated and needs updating. We should ask ourselves the fundamental question what are we trying to achieve by offering asylum. If the idea is to help individuals then the current system doesn’t achieve… Read more »
Oh god…the word gammon….You do see you are complete idiot don’t you Barry….Only those that are idiots/fools use the phrase gammon. I mean I presume you are a white British person with an affinity for Germany (quite why is beyond me given their history in WW1 and WW2 and propensity for the nationalism you so despise in other British people). However, I digress, if you are white British person then most white British will appear red in the face through an allergy, exercise, being out in cold weather or through the process of aging. Therefore, this so-called “gammon-face” would also… Read more »
Thank you for your erudite contribution to the topic.
No problem David you are welcome. I’m always happy to educate the feeble minded left winger whenever I can. 🙂
Thank you so much Andrew.
Hello David. Four of our regular extreme right posters have called for a military coup in the last 3 months. This makes them the living embodiment of a traitor by common law traditions. I would not waste time engaging with them other than to call them out as traitors. Best wishes from the moderate right.
Hi Chris, greetings from the moderate left.
Moderate right….LOL…what the Rishi Sunak form….God you people deluded and idiotic.
God…here we go “extreme right” what the hell does that mean Chris….I’d say from recent events with all the protests in London these are from the extreme left aided and abetted by the so-called moderate right or as I like to call them yellow Tories…conservative on the outside and Liberal democrat on the inside. Maybe you can chalk up what I say as a microaggression like Ms Keegan did to detract from the more important issue of someone that should have been deported before they caused someone irreparable harm. No but instead denigrate people who are genuinely upset by the… Read more »
Gammon is a racist term, stereotyping someone by skin colour is racist.
Where did I say anyone was gammon?
David I can see you actually some form of dementia…I’ll quote from you: Well. Born in Germany to British parents who speaks 3 European languages and someone who is most definitely not gammon. The phrase “….definitely not gammon…” that is a racist term you used and highly ironic as you actually a white man yourself. I love the way the left are utterly racist but then accuse other people of being racist…so ironic but getting oh so boring these days. I think people like you really do need to educate yourself more about the vast majority in this country that… Read more »
I said I was not gammon sweet ♥ should we meet and discuss your repressed desires?
Interesting so should we include homosexual prejudice in your list of sins David…all sides of the left wing attitude to life that they love to hide away from people. The most racist and homophobic people I ever met in life were left wingers….They just hide it very well by accusing centre right people of the very things they habour in their owns hearts…
For your benefit I’m heterosexual but have homosexual friends who would be appalled by your views…on them.
Where did I say anything homophobic? You seem to latch on and turn things.
Please Andrew, do tell us about yourself; we’re here to help. Hugs.
In a commet 1 day ago you referred to yourself as definitely not gammon. Gammon is derogatory term used to insult white middle aged men who don’t share a certain political perspective. Those who used it say its not racist but it is associating skin colour with a behaviour is racism 101.
I lived in Europe for 20 years, who knew the advance of the English language?.
The term was first used by Momentum a political group in the UK to insult those who didn’t agree with them. They never considered it could be a racist slur because it was directed towards white people. If a similar term had been used against other skin colours we would have seen criminal charges!
David did indeed use the word “Gammon” in the following phrase:
Well. Born in Germany to British parents who speaks 3 European languages and someone who is most definitely not gammon.
However, getting a left winger to admit their own racism is like getting an Islamist to convert to Christianity…Oh wait on a second that’s happened many times…silly me….
Oh dear. Where have I said anyone is a gammon.
My dear Andrew, dearheart, sweet thing, is your brow furrowed? Can I massage your aching muscles that provide for your undoubted intellect?
Can I follow your wisdom writ large, your prescient scribes for all to follow, dear England needs you now more than ever.
But, you wrote you are going to Foxtrot Oscar like the person you are. Oh dear, how sad, never mind.
Bimble on Andrew.
You know David I really hope you never experience what that poor woman experienced a week ago (no one deserves to suffer like that from a third world, medieval man who views women as less than cattle). She suffers because you love open borders…how’s your conscience these days and that of the church of England? I feel for the many victims of the people you protect and allow them to claim asylum in the UK after they have moved through tens of different safe countries…it is called asylum shopping or in my language an illegal migrant who is also economic… Read more »
Actually, remaining in Europe, he would have been deported. What was your point my dear Andrew?
The Type 31 is an “innovative way about thinking differently about a general purpose frigate”. Innovative isn’t the phrase I’d use for replacing general purpose frigates with an excellent hull mounted ASW sonar and quietened machinery for ASW operations l, with a general purpose frigate that has no ASW sonar and noisy diesel engines.
Only us, who invented Asdic/sonar, would neglect to fit one to some of our tiny fleet of escorts. Especially when we’re an island nation dependant on shipping in essential supplies. Building in capability gaps is so short sighted.
Nobody else builds/uses IH/T31 designed frigates without hull sonar.
Common issue: it needs 4-5 people to operate, whether that be per shift or deployment, with such a small Navy they’ll have to pilfer PIDs from the ROYAL.
Terrible situation.
That’s a bit of a simplified view of the situation fella. T23s were designed from the outset as ASW frigates and were all built to the same standard. When ST2087 was introduced in the early 00’s, only 8 sets were procured, with the oldest 5 ships not receiving them and were thus utilised as ‘GP’ frigates. T31 is based on the Danish IH designed frigates, which in turn are based on their Absalom class. Both have a diesel engine propulsion system, which are rafted, both have good sonar sets. Indeed the Absalom class are now ASW frigates with a new… Read more »
None of the T31 or ancestors have rafted machinery or engines.
Hi Chris,
got to disagree with you fella, those engines will be rafted, with some form of anti vibration measures in place.
The IH are built to a common NATO ASW standard, which I dont know the ins and outs of, but, not rafting them can cause all sorts of issues not just noise.
See @ GBs post about this for a more detailed explanation.
Mate, I 100% Agree on the T31. You don’t mount engines directly onto a hull stiffener or bedplate. Ignoring the noise issue it would fail the Shock Management requirements from the outset. I have done many engine changes on USN PCs and they are not ASW ships and have no sonar. The engines are mounted on huffing big isolating rubber engine mounts for shock management, engine torque management and to assist with alignment of the shaft line (via the gearbox). This whole ASW noise thing winds me up. Do people get that if you fitted a Towed array POD to… Read more »
Hi GB,
yes im with you on this whole ASW noise thing. I agree that the most likely scenario for adding sonar capabilities to T31 is some form of Workboat/Krait array set up for ASW work when the MOD is happy with the results and buys some.
They may well not always have them onboard, dependent on the OOAs, but will certainly be available to take along as and when required, if not actually form part of the fit in time.
It’s a worry the long term decline of our forces particularly the navy, but as others have pointed out it’s not all doom and gloom. The army and navy are getting some absolutely fantastic new kit which cannot really be compared to what it’s replacing capability wise. All defence issues can be solved with clever planning and with long term political and financial support. The biggest change and not say financial or in just pure numbers terms would be the creation of a new procurement agency headed by seniors in charge not the absolute joke of a civilian MOD with… Read more »
For me, that comes about with a RINGFENCED budget and priorities agreed by all parties and with NO INTERFERENCE every 5 years.
Please join the queue for PRAYER.
Nothing is going to change.
That’s pretty much what we have now, only issue is all party’s agree defence spending should be about 2% to 2.5% of GDP.
Britain is just a médium power exluding tbe Carrier and nuclear capability, Italia and Spain for exáample have a more númerous air force and army.
And still the traitors want more cuts.
Italy and Spain…where are they with all the issues in the Red Sea?
Neither have SSN’s either. If the did then their numbers too would be smaller.
Size is not everything. Capability, training, and a willingness to use is also a factor when looking at numbers.
Yes, the UK is a medium power, and has been for many decades.
M8 the RM have an Horizon class DDG and a FREMM frigate out there with the European contingent (both carry Aster missiles). Italy is really going through a pretty impressive Naval expansion at present and aren’t slow in using it. And they do that by passing properly thought out, ring fenced, fully funded Naval Laws which provide very well equipped ships. Just compare their FREMM class to the French ones. Funnily enough their Airforce is also well funded and equipped but their Army is a very poor relation. As for Spain the less said the better but being smack next… Read more »
So the RN have three escorts in theatre, whilst the MM which has bases far closer only has two…
Both Italy and Spain come nowhere near Britain in capability.
True we are a medium power but so is basically everyone excluding the USA and maybe China. One only has to visit the USA or China to realise the cost of being a super power probably not worth it. If we had an extra 1 or 2% of GDP to spend I would much rather see it go to infrastructure especially railways. This is basically what Germany and Japan do differently compared to us.
I wonder if you are the first person here who would rather put the money in HS2.
Nope, Japans railways are run privately with minimal state subsidies, lowest in the world. Best railways in the world for service also. So get it right you don’t need to spend valuable GDP on railways. Also Labour’s are going to enshrine WFH into law so we’ll never see the passenger numbers return to previous levels unless we have mass immigration that both parties support….. oh wait a minute we do.
Lots of airforces have more planes than us but many of them are not upgraded and unable to operate in high threat environments.
5 gen aircraft have kill ratios of 20 to 1 or more against 4 gen aircraft. When you have ratios like this it makes sense to opt for few better equipped aircraft with better trained pilots.
Also C4ISTAR is even more important these days than just having lots of planes. E7, RC135 etc are not cheap.
Much in this timely dispatch is unfortunately well known in this parish and so is the root cause. Until government sees the danger of this drift the situation will grow worse by the day.
An absolute disgrace as is almost everything else affecting our armed forces and the few people left to man them. Or should I say gender neutral them😠
No one wants to join and underfunded and under equipped military. I think all these problems can solved in unison with better funding. (Off topic) As for the UK land force, we are seeing a major step change in warfare. It would seem to behoove the UK to prioritize infantry which control drones over expensive armored vehicles and mechanized units. in 2024 there are drones and there are targets. I would prefer the UK to be the former and adapt. Fund the Navy and change the land forces to a cheaper but more effective formations modeled after the Ukraine war… Read more »
First Sea Lord, the Emperor’s Clothes springs to mind.
In the broom cupboard of Narnia, there is nothing, zilch, nada!
As an encouragement to encourage the others, about time Brass got kicked, sans honours and sans pensions for bullshitting Parliament; it has to stop.
Schrapps is bad enough but senior Braid are in on the joke.
All of these reports by the HoC Defence Committee are substantive contributions to the British equivalent of a Pearl Harbor file. Unfortunately, the countdown clock is ticking. There will be a search for the guilty, once the balloon goes up. Guaranteed. Unfortunately, it will also attest to the fact of unnecessary, additional British casualties. Virtually everyone on this site fully understands the implications of being unprepared for war.
We don’t have any foreign possessions to defend any more. The only tangible threat we face is Russia and since 2022 no one can say that Russia is a serious player outside of trade show mock ups. China is an issue for sure but it’s a long way from the UK. The US is the world’s hegemony so it’s likely worth the US pumping all the time and money it does into its military to maintain that but I doubt it will last much longer. The US is increasingly isolationist in the Republican and Democratic extremes both sides have given… Read more »
Sorry. We import how much from China?
China is the pre-eminent issue at the moment and Britain needs a stand alone Navy to defend herself. Simples.
British casualties. That’s the reason I am so angered by the continued failure of the government. It won’t be them paying in blood for years of failure. I can see where the world is heading and we are in no shape or form ready for it.
Prosecute people for daring to fire back when being shot at and blown up, make them redundant each year in yt another round of cuts, fail to provide them with the kit yet need, provide them with expensive unmaintained private slums (while giving illegal immigrants 4 star hotels) and pay they badly then wonder why you can’t recruit. Don’t spend money on our very important defence while spending billions ensuring those that identify as a martian are represented and have special toilets in hospitals…. The civil service is to blame probably even more than labour and conservative. Stop the crap,… Read more »
Its all very well blaming your government of choice for where we are now (and there will be some validity in it) but where were the resignations from the 1SL’s etc….. They were all happy to shuffle the deck chairs while it was on ‘their watch’ and hope things didn’t go wrong and happy to slope it all off to the next guy as they swan off to work for whichever contractor will pay them the most. There’s a lot of self interest going on which is no surprise, its human nature but worth bearing in mind as its very… Read more »
It is virtually impossible for the top brass to speak out publicly, all scripts are vetted and edited by the MOD spinmeisters. It doesn’t mean that they don’t fight their case firmly within the corridors of power, in hard face to face encounters with Ministers, Treasury and PM. The CGS, Gen Sir Patrick Sanders, is stepping down early, effectively relieved of duty by a vengeful Government and MOD.hierarchy, for speaking out publicly against the cuts to the army. As well as being quite right, he is an honourable man who put national duty before career. I think Gen Sir Richard… Read more »
He’s been in post a couple of years mate so done the lion’s share of the draft before gobbing off, its hardly stickin’ it to da man. You get one every now and then who does this and while it is appreciated its hardly dousing yourself in petrol and lighting it in protest. Some of these guys start to become very political quite early in their careers, I’ve witnessed it myself. Lets just wait and see where Sanders pitches up next, I’ll be shocked if he’s jacks it all in and gets a gig in an Oxfam shop. Good luck… Read more »
Should you have read Shirreff’s book on the third world War and lived in Latvia AND listened to his recent podcast with a Czech talking head, he is not intellectually strong in the slightest; over promoted Braid? I’ll give you that.
Its not all decline the MoD civil service has grown 8% over 8 years😀
😂 Thank gawd for that, you can never have too many Civil Servants, I hope they’re all in the essential DEI department.
Attempting to be positive I will say what a fabulous photo that is at the top of this article. It captures in one shot what for me are the two best looking vessel classes in the RN. Both the Astute and the T45 really are very handsome. Come to think of it that photo isn’t just capturing the two most beautiful vessel classes in the RN. I suppose it’s arguable, but if I was asked to put up two classes in the RN that had the best chance of winning a world’s-best-in-their-role prize the two that I would choose to… Read more »