The Irish Air Corps, responsible for providing military aviation support to the Irish Defence Forces, faces significant challenges in countering aerial threats due to its limited capabilities and resources.
This article examines (via military simulation software) the Irish Air Corps’ current capacity to respond to a potentially hostile aircraft, even a small civilian aircraft like the Cessna 172, targeting a visiting US President in Dublin.
During a ‘Command: Modern Operations’ simulation designed to assess the capabilities of the Republic of Ireland in defending its own airspace, the Irish Air Corps employed PC-9M aircraft to enforce a no-fly zone over Dublin. Their enemy was a single, unarmed Cessna 172 heading straight for Joe Biden as he tours Dublin on an upcoming visit.
In reality, the United States Air Force and Royal Air Force would, if required, undertake sorties to engage with hostile aircraft in this context. But, for the purposes of this simulation, Ireland is operating in a strictly neutral manner to determine if Ireland can do this on its own
The mission for the simulation? The Irish Air Corps detects an aircraft that ignores air traffic control and is heading directly to Dublin. Their job is to engage and stop the aircraft. Below, we explore the results of this, but as you’ve likely guessed, they’re not encouraging.
Can the Irish Air Corps stop a small aircraft from being used against President Biden on his visit to Ireland? No. I've used military simulation software using accurate Irish capabilities, showing that Ireland lacks the means to track and engage the aircraft. pic.twitter.com/fuBorJZ9bB
— George Allison (@geoallison) April 10, 2023
In short, Irish aircraft faced significant challenges in effectively maintaining the no-fly zone due to their limited radar capabilities and lack of air-to-air weaponry, but I’ll go into detail below.
Limited Radar Capabilities
The PC-9M aircraft, primarily used for training and light attack roles, do not possess advanced radar systems required for effectively monitoring and controlling a no-fly zone. In the simulation, this limitation hindered the PC-9M pilots’ ability to detect, track, and intercept the Cessna 172 aircraft as it entered the restricted airspace over Dublin.
Lack of Air-to-Air Weapons
In addition to limited radar capabilities, the PC-9M aircraft are not equipped with air-to-air weaponry, rendering them unable to effectively engage a hostile aircraft in the event of an incursion. While the PC-9M can be armed with light ground-attack munitions, these weapons are not suitable for engaging aerial targets. This leaves the PC-9M pilots with no means to neutralise a threat within the no-fly zone, significantly reducing the effectiveness of such a restriction.
Implications and Recommendations
The challenges faced by the PC-9M aircraft in enforcing a no-fly zone over Dublin during the ‘Command Modern Operations’ simulation further emphasise the need for Ireland to invest in advanced air defence capabilities.
Procuring dedicated fighter aircraft with air-to-air combat capabilities and enhanced radar systems would substantially improve the Irish Air Corps’ ability to enforce no-fly zones and respond to aerial threats.
Anyway, the scenario ended with the Cessna heading into central Dublin without being challenged by any Irish aircraft, it was able to locate President Biden’s motorcade and descend towards it.
Keep in mind, this simulator is a game with no accessed to classified information and as such, this isn’t gospel.
What is Command: Modern Operations?
Command: Modern Operations’ is considered an accurate military simulator for several reasons:
- Extensive Database of Military Assets: The game features an extensive database of real-world military assets, including aircraft, ships, submarines, ground vehicles, and weapon systems. Each asset is modeled with accurate specifications, performance data, and capabilities, which allows for realistic representation of various military platforms and their interactions.
- Realistic Scenario Design: ‘Command: Modern Operations’ allows users to create and play through a wide range of scenarios based on real-world geopolitical situations and potential conflicts. The game’s AI system takes into account factors such as terrain, weather conditions, and the capabilities of participating forces, providing an authentic experience of strategic planning and decision-making in a military context.
- Advanced Modeling of Sensors and Communications: The game features sophisticated modeling of sensor and communication systems, including radar, sonar, electronic warfare, and data links. This detailed representation allows players to experience the complexities of modern military operations, where the management of information and the ability to detect and counter enemy actions play a crucial role in the outcome.
- Realistic Simulation of Command and Control: ‘Command: Modern Operations’ simulates the command and control aspects of military operations, requiring players to make strategic decisions, allocate resources, and manage their forces in real-time. The game also features realistic modeling of command hierarchies, communication networks, and the fog of war, which adds an additional layer of complexity to the decision-making process.
Overall, the value here is its comprehensive database of military assets, realistic scenario design, advanced modelling of sensors and communications, authentic simulation of command and control, and continuous updates to maintain its relevance. The software offers players an immersive experience in the world of modern military operations and strategic decision-making.
What’s being done about this?
The Irish Government is considering the purchase of military jet aircraft that would have the capacity to intercept high-altitude aircraft and fully police Irish skies, according to local media.
A new five-year Defence Forces investment strategy document has said that “future projects at a pre-planning stage” include the potential for “air combat interceptors”. The Irish Times also say that a programme of this kind would likely cost well in excess of €1 billion. Ireland currently lacks aircraft that can climb high enough or go fast enough to intercept Russian aircraft.
I get the impression that the Irish political elites whilst berating the British every chance they get for this that and the other are more than happy on the QT to allow the RAF to act as big brother when it comes to their defence. On that note its not just their airforce , the other day it was reported in their media that they have a huge problem manning their Navy: Lack of able seamen has resulted in entire naval fleet being tied upThe navy’s personnel crisis has sunk to new depths as it is now so short of… Read more »
Manpower issues for the DF isn’t a new story and likely to get worse unless Finance backs off on the retirement issue that’s stalking the NS in particular.
I also read the Irish are getting 3 small patrol ships from New Zealand. Not sure how they will man them either.
Hopefully the Irish navy can get the people it needs soon.
It’s two actually for East Coast operations in the Irish Sea, reportedly that’s why the P50s have been laid up.
Oh the irony!!
New Zealand is possibly the only nation in the western world other than Ireland that is completely unable to defend its own airspace from a Cessna 172.
I thought that NZ had an agreement with Australia that RAAF would provide airborne defence capability.
I am not aware of any formal agreement between Australia and New Zealand specifically for air defence. The ANZUS treaty is a ‘non-binding’ agreement and only commits the nations to ‘consult’ in the face of a a threat. It does not contain clauses that require mutual defence of the other nations in the treaty if one nation is attacked in the same way NATO does. In any case geography makes the air defence of New Zealand by the RAAF impractical in any realistic scenario. The distance from RAAF Amberley (Super Hornet) to Auckland is approx. 2,300 kms and RAAF Williamtown… Read more »
As an Irishman I can confirm that all political parties in Ireland are just about useless, however I would also point out that not all parties have the same position on Britain and neutrality in general.
It would be nice the Irish government were to repay the loan made by David Cameron, which avoided the Republic becoming a wholly-owned subsidiary of JP Morgan and an EU basket case..
thats a nice fantasy you have there…
Not even remotely accurate but never mind.
As if the Americans aren’t well aware of the issues? Or that they themselves aren’t likely to be the ones running the protection.
I’m kind of amazed that the story about buying fighters keeps getting highlighted, it’s mad how wrong it is mp it never mind.
There have been some talks and visits to “a” EU nation in regards to the Primary Radar project but that is the limit of things for this decade I would bet.
I too wonder at this. Many prerequisites are needed to accomplish this.
Primary radar, recruiting/training pilots, air facilities /crew support infrastructure and finally buying and receiving airframes.
That is the order of things, did I miss something? Lol
I think there should be “a minor miracle” included in that list somewhere, but maybe that’s just me?
Lol
I’m amazed this is even a story, or that it needed a simulation to establish the fact.
The defence budget amounts to 0.26% of GDP vs the NATO guideline, now minimum, of 2%. The ability to mount more than constabulary missions is zero.
True but Irish much like Luxembourg’s GDP bares no semblance to reality. It’s a purely fictional number based on Facebook’s balance sheet. Ireland could never afford 2% of GDP as their GDP figures is inflated by at least a factor of 2.
Ireland isn’t in NATO. They can spend as little or as much as they want on defence.
Indeed, and I did not imply NATO membership, just that the NATO guidelines are a useful yardstick. Sweden and Finland have both been neutral for many decades, but they both understand the importance of self defence and spend accordingly. Ireland does not, it relies entirely on others.
2% is useful (unless creative accounting fluffs the numbers…..) It does rely on others (and geography). Finland & Sweden spend significant amounts on their military but with good reason. They border a nation that appears to pose more of a threat of invasion. Ireland is playing the game and playing it well. Make no mistake, their politicians know fine well the game (or cognitive dissonance is at play). They know the US, UK, EU and UN would all come running so any incursion would be temporary. Why waste the cash when you can spend it on ‘popular’ things? Hypocrisy is… Read more »
Agree 100% with all the above. It is also imo the model for what an independent Scotland and SNP government would follow – all the talk of Typhoon squadrons, submarines and frigates is pure baloney.We get both the SFPA vessels in port regularly, these approximate to unarmed Rivers, and that sort of kit is much more realistic as a naval prescence – again as per Ireland.
As I’ve said before assuming any Independent Scotland would follow the same path as Ireland (in anything) is lazy thinking, tbh. The factors that created the issues in Ireland just aren’t replicated in Scotland.
For the record, I do hope Scotland sticks around. Separately we achieved nothing. Together we made the world a much better place.
Where would we Brits (and the world) be without Adam Smith, Billy Connolly, Baird, Watt, Conan-Doyle, Fleming etc etc.
I think we need to let the people of Scotland know, the rest of Britain hates London and UK politicians too. 😆 Hell, if the SNP weren’t Nazis, changed name and stood for seats in England and Wales, they’d probably win as they’d be a viable alternative to the dross we have.
Speaking as an Irish man, i think you are spot on in your assessment. Perhaps certain Irish politicians may wish to raise defence spending from time to time. But the true people who hold the power in Ireland are the faceless unelected bureaucrats of the Civil Service, particularly in the department of Public Expenditure Control, and they most definitely think cynically along the lines you suggested. But there is one other dimension to be considered, in the context of the poor state of Ireland’s defence forces. Have you thought about the consequences if Ireland had a strong militrary? What would… Read more »
Interesting theoreticals there. I’d say ROI would need to spend 50% of gov expenditure for several years/ decades to build up to have the forces to pose a threat in conventional war – never happening. Let’s say it did, Ireland staying ‘neutral’, don’t think we’d care. Any attack on UK is an attack on NATO so… If Irish politicians started building forces and posturing/threatening to invade, deliberate incursions into airspace or similar (thinking China Taiwan as an example) then obviously there would be a reaction but, unless that was happening, we wouldn’t be fussed. Mexico doesn’t live in perpetual fear… Read more »
Agreed. The Republic is a proper grown-up country. It would be nice if its’ politicians would honour that fact.
It’s politicians do what all politicians do, focus on what gets them elected/re-elected. Defence Spending isn’t even close to that.
Japan and Australia are not in NATO either and are both focused on 2% of GDP. As you say they can spend what they like but why should they be allowed to freeload on their neighbours while simultaneously stealing their taxes.
Why should they be allowed? Because we and the EU let them. I say “we”, I mean our political masters.
Plus it’s a strategic thing. Would you stand by whilst an aggressor invaded Ireland & gained a land border to the UK?
Watch what happens if a British politician demanded Ireland spend more. “Imperialism” all over the front pages bud.
It would be related to defence, so it would be lucky to be a column before the notices pages.
😆 fair one!
Unfortunately the press here and abroad would forget the ‘defence’ bit and leap at the opportunity to berate the UK.
The Fleet
LINK
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FU5tKAWWAAANmoW.jpg
And one of the CASAs is pretty much a hanger queen, while the other one can still barely operate, thankfully their replacements are due this year, but yeah the AC and NS are even lower on the spending priorities than the Army for the limited budget.
Options? Greece is looking to purchase some F-16s
There aren’t any. The list of issues that would need to be dealt with before Fighters are even looked at have all been laid out before whenever this topic (or similar) come up.
Work has started on the first stages for a tender for Primary Radar, anyone expecting that to happen quickly or anything more than that for the rest of this decade is kidding themselves.
They could operate a joint typhoon squadron with the Uk. Works fine for Qatar.
Alas, it wouldn’t be seen as politically acceptable in Dublin and it would be seen as affecting neutrality too.
It’s a strange thing Irish Neutrality, somewhat archane and increasingly irrelevant, considering the EU’s drive to create a standing military capability.
Providing Ireland pay the full costs for intercepts in Irish airspace, were needed, we might as well carry on.
With what? Even leaving out the politics, there’s about 800 people in the AC all together, there’s not enough for what we have let alone fighters.
That costs real money – the Qataris are paying fir that training.
Maybe Facebook can chip in 😀
They also have an air force with over 4 times the personnel of the AC and god knows how much bigger budget, so I’m not sure why you reference them as an example?
Because they are a tiny little rich nation much like Ireland.
Precisely. Even if F16/Gripen or similar were purchased tomorrow, there is no one to fly them, no infrastructure, no ground crew, armourers etc. Even if the Irish Air Corp planned on having them in 5 to 10 years, these specialist personnel would need to be embedded with a friendly air force to gain the necessary skills and training to operate the jets. So far, none are. Fast jets are a long, long term consideration for the Irish at the moment.
They already send Air Corp pilots on secondment to the RAAF In Australia for training on fast jets—and North Carolina for helicopter training with the US Airforce.
No and no. The couple of pilots in Australia are there for twin engine turbo prop experience, nothing to do with fast jets, and the pilots in the States are training with the US Army not Airforce, though there has been some meeting with the USAF over their use of the 139 for nuclear protection operations.
I thought they now had some motorway in Ireland that Gripens could fly from.
What?
Yeah. Whatever.
Hi Mark, I have wondered for a while the purpose of spending whatever the costs are for the Primary Radar project? If at the end of the day it’s not backed up with some form of defensive deterrent, be it AC or SAM system.
Seems like an awful lot of money for a capability that’s not really going to be used. Surely a fleet of vehicle based radar systems might achieve the same results but at a cheaper cost? Or am I totally missing something here?
Are you a pessimist or an optimist?
Pessimistically, enough noise from the rest of the EU has put pressure to be seen to “do something”, and Primary Radar is a visible “something”.
Optimistically, it’s the first step into LoA3 with potentially buying Fighters next decade or so.
I imagine vehicles are out because of the usual inter service issues and lack of interest by the Army (unless it means more money/badges for them).
Ah tavm!
Personally I’m a ‘glass half full’ guy, so good luck especially when it comes to AC selection, lots of decent stuff to choose from.
Greece is upgrading its 83 F16s to block 72 standard. And has sent a letter of request to purchase 20 F35’s with an option for a second batch of 20 F35’s. Greece has also ordered 24 Rafale F3F’s to be delivered by 2025. 12 of these Rafales are ex French Air Force jets that will be upgraded. All in all. It will give Greece one of the most capable fighter fleets in Europe. You wonder how they can afford it all considering the state of the Greek economy.
They can’t afford it is the simple answer! But they can’t afford not to have a big stick in their ‘hood.
I’d have thought the upgraded F16’s would have been fine for them.
I don’t know how mixing the fleet up with ex French stuff will help others than uncreate complexity and costs.
F35 is overkill.
Mind you it is more a question of what goes on with Turkey….
Like you say, Turkey is key. And Greece needs to be seen to be stepping up. F16 for the multi role mass, Rafale a step up, and F35 for the gold plated first night of war capability, that would probably end up doing 90% of the damage. As well as increasing the capability of the 4th gen platforms. It’s a cost they seem willing to pay, but it must be at the expense of under investment in other parts of the Greek economy.
It is an interesting view point that they don’t trust NATO to come to their defence given the likes aggressor is a NATO member…
I’m not sure it’s about NATO trust, just they don’t want to lose face with Turkey. Long running foes.
I’d have thought Gripens would be the best fit for their needs in terms of cost vs capability, but it’s still a lot of money. As long as the RAF effectively does air defence for them I can’t see them being willing to face the expense of standing up a fast jet capability from scratch.
There are plenty of options available to them, they just need to commit or at the very least start saving for the delivery of new fixed-wing aircraft towards the end of this decade. Just another example, they also manufacture the KAI KT-1 Woongbi basic trainer and the advanced KAI T-50 Golden Eagle advanced trainer. South Korea sets 2026 target to mass-produce KF-21 fighter The test launch of an InfraRed Imaging System-Tail control missile from a KF-21 fighter aircraft on 4 April suggests that South Korea is moving to acquire quantities of this advanced short-range missile. “South Korea is seeking a… Read more »
Buying outside of Europe is very rare for the DF, only very small orders have happened with mixed success. Whatever the merits of the ROK aircraft getting the departments to support it would be challenging I would bet.
I think If the UK stopped covering their air space, it might just get things moving a little bit quicker.
They do not need to purchase a large fleet at great expense, but 20 or so decent fighters would no doubt suffice.
“The US Air Force (USAF) is shifting focus from developing expensive, highly tailored intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance, (ISR) sensor systems to ones that are comparatively lower cost with significant reductions in size, weight, and power (SWaP) and increased interoperability with other US and allied weapons systems, according to a senior service official.”
LINK
Not really, Defence isn’t a priority for the public and hence for the politicians. I doubt the average citizen even knows about the current situation or would notice if it changed.
I’ve just had a look this morning and they will also have Rafales. 83 F-16 upgrades to Block 72 standard by 2027 with talk of the F-35 as well.
LINK
The Greek government’s discussions with the Americans and the option to acquire 20 F-35s “In 2028, the modernization of the Air Force’s 83 F-16s to the Viper version is expected to be completed, and the Americans propose to start immediately after the F-35 delivery program. The American company proposes to deliver to the Greek Air Force four F-35s in 2028, two in 2029, three in 2030, three in 2031, four in 2032 and the last four F-35s in 2033. The delivery schedule the Air Force will smoothly absorb the 5th generation fighter aircraft, setting up the first squadron where the… Read more »
Like the timeline for the potential delivery of the F35, the type of F-35 to be purchased, A,B, or C, the costs involved, flight simulators, and consideration for upgrading the rest of the Greek F-16 fleet, yes you did 😂 😂 Twat.
@Nigel
Could you calm it down a bit?
I read this site for relaxation in an often very stressful day. I could do without the abusive stuff.
Both of you are essentially saying the same thing anyway?
You do find some interesting stuff and Robert has a valuable first hand perspective.
Let’s try and discuss defence and wars without starting one between the contributors?
@Supportive Bloke
Yes, tell him to stay off my posts, I never reply to his comments unless he starts his usual bull💩.
See under if it’s allowed, it never stops and I will comment when required.
Everyone is sick of it including me, tell him to give it a rest, he told @Graham Moore he doesn’t comment on my posts and guess what, inside a week he was off again. He simply cannot stop which is not that hard to work out.
Read the comments section, it’s called baiting/trolling.
British F-35 jets receive £161m support contract
“I already told you all of that 3 hours ago Nigel. I just don’t need to share links.” No, you failed to mention the timeline for the potential delivery of the F35, the type of F-35 to be purchased, A,B, or C, the costs involved, flight simulators, and consideration for upgrading the rest of the Greek F-16 fleet, hence my post and link with more detail! “Some really good people use this website” Yes, and don’t have to resort to telling lies in order to distort the truth and make up for their incorrect and uninformed posts when corrected. ROBERT BLAY Caught… Read more »
😆oh, my word, Nigel. This is all you got. The man who announced to the world we shouldn’t both buying more F35’s because 6th gen will be available In service from 2025. And now you are trying to use the announcement that we are planning to fly a technology demonstrator from 2027 to cover your absolute whopper of a prediction. I know what a flying technology demonstrator is, you clearly don’t. You are that child like you probably have a poster of the F35 on your bedroom wall that you like to throw darts at every time a new nation… Read more »
Reduced to his website comments again, oh dear 😂
https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/7dedfeb7-6585-4f03-9354-92ed5e161a49.c674c199dc76f3b2824a6efa0a0c157e.jpeg
If that’s an attempt to show you are a human being with a soul and humour. You failed miserably. What was it you said to me once in a comment 🤔…….. “I’m glad I live rent free inside your head”……. Two can play at that game, Popeye🫡
Oh. And Romania has announced today it intends to purchase the F35. Another dart for your poster 👌
As I’ve said before, Nigel. I’ll call out your child like BS on defence topics that you clearly know nothing about. You just try and take over every news article UKDJ posts with your own links often from some pretty 3rd rate site’s and you fall out with everyone who engages with you. Some good blokes use this site. You are not one of them.
As I said, he simply cannot stop, spitting as many personal insults as possible while attempting to distort the facts! Very sad.
It was a legitimate comment in line with the article with accurate information for you. So what’s your problem Nigel?
I already told you all of that 3 hours ago Nigel. I just don’t need to share links.
I am shocked. Shocked! Well, not that shocked. Does anybody remember ‘Crisis Command’ on the BBC in 2004? That was good.
As ever Ireland is not doing its bit. All democratic nations should spend at least 2% to contribute to the collective military power of democracies. At 2% Ireland could have a decent little self-defence force able to detect, track and engage air and sea targets.
America’s greates ally has no need of defence spending, sleepy Joe will look out for them 😀
They’re neutral. Under what edict/law/authority do we have to dictate to anyone what they should be spending?
Reality is, they’ve assessed their position in the world (geographically and politically), and determined they can spend little and get the protection of the UK and EU (and likely the UN and USA) should any other nation commence hostilities.
Some act of terror (as described in the above article) is to them, so unlikely as to not be worth investing any time or money to. We may disagree but that’s their choice.
That would be a defence budget of $12 billion US at 2 % of current GDP. Yep, a decent armed force indeed.
Be fair Mickey that gdp figure is soft and somewhat unreliable long term, but even if we had stayed at 90s level of spending we would be over €5 billion.
Certainly enough to buy equipment to help track Russian submarines that operate in and around Irish waters. And a handful of jets for home skies.
You betcha! it has been said many times on here but Ireland needs an overhaul to its air and sea picture. Problem is it will not happen overnight.
Ireland defence policy is based on
• it’s declared neutrality
• anybody who wants to attack it has to get past Great Britain (and now NATO) first
Given it wouldn’t give up that policy and fight with the Allies against the evil of Nazi Germany, I don’t see it giving it up in the face of Putin’s Russia.
Currently Ireland’s forces merely exist for constabulary enforcement and inclusion in UN peacekeeping missions.
If Irish politicians had any moral backbone, they’d align with the rest of the free world and join NATO. I don’t see it ever happening.
Yeah the Irish are real hero’s, stealing everyone in Europes corporation tax and pretending that a few peace keepers deployed from a tiny army makes them some kind of moral authority while doing SFA to defend any free nations against tyranny. Meanwhile look at what countries like Finland are doing.
I put Ireland in the big hero category along with India, all the moral authority of a bank robber.
I think that’s a little unfair on bank robbers, as they don’t pretend what they are doing is perfectly fine. Ireland parades it’s neutrality like it is a virtue…
Out of curiosity, are you referring to India specifically with regards to their behaviour in the current Russian invasion of Ukraine (which is annoying in itself), or a broader holier-than-thou attitude?
Thousands of Irish joined up in the UK forces in both wars, no conscription there.
During the second war, those who volunteered from the south were then criminals. They were not pardoned until recently.
I know. And it just makes the political class look even more pathetic.
Absurd is another word that could be used.
When the Queen visited the Republic in 2011, she visited both the Garden of Remembrance and the National War Memorial Gardens. I cannot think of a stronger gesture of reconciliation. Some people also saw it as a silent rebuke to those who would create divisions between our two nations.
If you are going to use that one at least educate yourself. It was serving members of the DF that deserted that suffered after the war, because they deserted, they should have been court-martialled like any other nation does for desertion, everyone one else that joined had no issues after the war.
Many who went to serve in a foreign army were castigated in many ways, no access to governent jobs, etc.
There were ramifications.
Only those that deserted the DF, which were a tiny number of the total that served mainly in British or Commonwealth forces.
https://www.theirishstory.com/2021/10/02/podcast-irish-army-deserters-in-the-second-world-war-with-cian-harte/
Did this simulation factor in the army’s AA weaponry? No-fly zones in the past such as Queen Elizabeth and Barack Obama’s visits have been enforced by RBS 70 SAMs and Bofors L/70 AA guns supplemented by GIRAFFE and Flycatcher radar respectively, and not by the PC-9Ms.
Flycatcher is decommissioned I think, and it seems that the GIRAFFE’s are non functional according to media reports.
I just created a similar scenario myself quickly, and most commercial light aircraft can comfortably cruise higher than the engagement altitude of most MANPADs. They only have to descend once they’re over the target, by which point if they get shot down they’re probably going to kill a few people on the ground in Dublin. Whether or not you think that’s realistic is up to you, but in the game they can simply fly above the MEZ.
I’m just a uniformed lurker but wouldn’t an AW139 with an open door and a guy with a machine gun in that door be able to make it a really bad day for a Cessna 172 ?
Would have to catch it first…
Of the 6, one is always tasked for Air Ambulance services, one in reserve for that, in the case of visiting dignitaries at least one is generally tasked for ARW operations, add in maintenance and the numbers aren’t great for any such “ad hoc” interception at the best of times.
Thank you, that answers the question I was about to ask. The article repeatedly mentions air to air missiles but said nothing about surface to air, air defence.
I’d expect UK based USAF F35As would be nearby at the very least. A couple of flights of advanced trainer jets(BAE Hawks or any of the many similar) would suffice if Eire ever decided to cover its own airspace in an increasingly dangerous world. Given the huge contribution of Irish to both the UK & the USA, I don’t begrudge them our protection when needed.
As long as they still remain “Neutral” and not allow other nations to build military bases on their shores.
If they were too, I believe Churchill said instead of sending bombers east he would send them west
I’d agree. In the event of a visit from USA, secret service would doubtless request a few fighters be nearby.
‘Huge contribution to both UK & USA’ – curious if you’re able to elaborate what you mean by this? I’d also be interested to ask; if something is owed by UK/USA, when will it be considered ‘paid’?
Hi Stu, I mean the contribution & presence of so many Irish to our society over many centuries, our shameful treatment of the Irish too in earlier times, our close ties, but particularly to the huge number of Irishmen who fought for us in two world wars & more besides. Then there’s the massive Irish part of the USA.
Nothing but love for 99% of Irish people. I too feel shame for events of the past perpetrated by our nation (some deliberate, some from stupidity) & gratitude for the contribution made by the Irish to the UK.
You implied a debt owed, hence my query. Unfortunately, this isn’t how the world works & if it was, the entire planet (with a few exceptions) should sing our praises from on high. But they don’t.
This forum generally doesn’t like the s-word being mentioned. Be careful or you will get alot of very long posts telling you “you don’t know anything” “you hate your country” etc etc etc.
I would say that our treatment of Ireland is made out to be more negative than it actually was (plenty to be proud of) though…
Fair point. Seems more and more common that some can’t see that 2 things can be true at once; 1) Britain was one of the best things to happen to the world and I am immensely proud to be from here. 2) our predecessors made mistakes and did some horrid things. Some mistakes are painted as deliberate horrid things when they weren’t (which is very annoying). What really bugs me is judging the actions of people from the past by the (so called) standards of today. All in all, it’s difficult to show a nation that’s had more positive effects… Read more »
In this context, the word “debt” has associations with the word “reparations”. Not a road any right-thinking person wants to travel.
Considering my island are a peaceful nation that historically try to stay neutral why would we need to spend £1b for planes ,England are poking their nose into everyone’s problems ,surely it’s their interest that we can defend our own interest so why don’t they just give us some fighter jets ,surely it’s in their interest aswell
Because even if the U.K. did we can’t support them, as for “neutral”, explain why the other neutrals of Europe do have such capabilities?
If you can ,please enlighten me?
Enlighten you about what? How other European neutral nations (or formerly such in the case of Finland and Sweden) actually do have the capability to enforce their sovereignty but for a whole host of stupid reasons Ireland chooses not to?
I understand why you believe we should have means to defend ourselves like other so called neutral countries but don’t you also believe that their other things the money can go into instead of defence or military
I’ve never suffered a crime, why should my taxes be spent on the Gardaí and the prison service? Even if we brought our defence spending to that level (circa 1%j it would still not impact any of the other major spending departments, be it health, social welfare, education or housing, all of whom get significantly more than the defence budget. Moreover are you aware that we used to spend in excess of 1% in the Troubles when we had an massively smaller economy? Lastly, have you considered the costs for example of the HSE cyber attack, or the economic impact… Read more »
Well that’s rich England poking their nose in indeed! Try keeping your politics south of the border and stop poking your nose in UK business!
I’m talking about my politics from an Irish viewpoint jacko ,England along with America think they are the world police ,so yes “poking their nose in”.
Would that be GB&NI as in the UK or just England then🙄
Ireland as in where Dublin sits 😉👍
You are more than 100 years behind the times. Apparently, a part of Ireland belongs to the UK, the rest is governed by the Republic.
We’ll be happy to send fighter jets in your direction. Unless you pay in advance, don’t expect them to be friendly. OK ?
defence journal making a good argument for the Irish to sort out their airspace
Wasn’t there an article published on this very website a few months ago that came to the conclusion that Ireland doesn’t need to rely on the RAF to protect its airspace? I can’t remember the exact nature of the article, but I do remember reading it and coming to the complete opposite conclusion as the author (as did many on here). The Europeans have spent far too long poncing off the Americans for defense needs and the Irish have spent far too long poncing off the British. Joe “I’m Irish” Biden should be pressuring his cousins to increase their defense… Read more »
We don’t ‘protect’ Irish airspace it is in our own interests not to let anyone sneak in the back door so to speak. As far as I know we don’t get paid or have to pay for flying in Irish airspace.
However, the article which we are currently commenting on suggests that we do. Should a terrorist which to attack Dublin the Irish would rely on the RAF for protection. Wouldn’t you agree then that the British are providing protection? However, your comment that it is in British interest is obviously valid too
Mark is probably the best one to answer that,I don’t know if we can defend a sovereign country’s airspace that we don’t have an alliance with🤔
There is a long standing argument over whether any formal agreement actually exists or not and if it does what are it’s actual terms. Neither London or Dublin will ever admit to it (which is subject to a court case at the moment), the only evidence one way or the other is that the RAF was asked for overflights over Dublin on 9/11 from memory, but I think that was a sort of “in the moment” response from a request not anything actually required. In this particular case I would imagine the US military would be handling the security arrangements.… Read more »
I think we monitor airspace around Ireland anyway for our own security, so are able to intercept anything approaching the west of Ireland with QRA Typhoons.
It would be an interesting, tongue-in-cheek idea for someone to make a film with Russian paratroops landing en masse somewhere near Limerick, followed by amphibious landings & how long the Irish DF could last. I wouldn’t think any of the Irish DF vessels would last long against any Russian warship or aircraft for that matter.
That’s presuming there’s much Russian Para or troops for amphib ops left after Ukraine losses & that NATO ever let them get that far unchecked.
You want to read Dark Rose by Mike Lennon-wood for a good read on an Ireland takeover👍
Oh dear sweat Jesus no. The list of things wrong with that book could fill a library.
Fiction mate 😂😂
But bad, I mean I read a couple of his others and they weren’t terrible but that one… Manic Moran have the best answer to to it a while back on one of his Q&As
I’ll check it out Jacko ta.
If Russian paratroops landed in Ireland, I think they would have a WW2 Crete scenario on there hands TBH
If you really want to spice it up, replace Russian with UK.
They’re an independant neutral nation & it’s up to them.
I completely agree the way Biden overnight cut loose Afghanistan was atrocious, betraying so many, causing many needless deaths & beyond naive to trust Taliban assurances. People dropping of planes taking of out of terror of staying. People being snuffed out by Taliban hit squads, Afghan employees being left abandoned totally vulnerable. All on Biden’s head, though Trump was about to do the same thing had he remained in office.
It really is a tragedy. So many young girls with hopes for a future that have now been snuffed out. As my Labour-voting friends used to say about Corbyn “I wish he would just F**k off” is the way I feel about Biden.
100 years minimum in afghan before leaving
You really think any Western nation would sustain such an operation?
mark this was a comment reported in the media at the time of the pullout, stating it would take that long, 100 years to nation build afghan. some here have served there and are owed our respect and gratitude for their service, the immensity of the task was grossly underestimated by our leaders
It is worth reading the words which Biden spoke while he was in the Republic – there was a huge amount of overt and covert hostility to the UK. Next time he visits the UK, I hope that someone will ask him to explain himself. If he bothers to attend the coronation, he can sit next to Prince Harry on the naughty step.
Biden, who is something like 1/10000th Irish is like many white americans who try to cling on to some sort of cultural roots. There is nothing Irish about Biden. He is American, and if I ever got infront of his face I would ask him why an Irishman thinks he should be running the US. I’m pretty sure he has said “im irish” more times than he has said “im american”. Unfortunately the US has a high co-efficient of morons who buy into his crap
Hi Frank. I am no fan of Trump but I somehow believe he would have handled it better
Same here to be honest. I also don’t think he would have let Ukraine happen. From my understanding (which is limited), the allies wouldn’t have had to have a huge presence in Afhgan to support the army there. It really is a total tragedy for anyone who isn’t a man
The blokes aren’t exactly doing too well out of it, either.
And anybody from elsewhere who wishes to comment is entirely entitled to do so.
I half think the wake up call for Ireland will be when the Chinese Far Waters Fishing Fleet turns up in their waters in the North Atlantic, having already done South America and West Africa several years ago.
It would piss off the fishing community, but they have never had political strength in Ireland tbh.
I feel very relaxed about the Irish Republic’s security. Happily, so do its own people.
Barry, how would you deter a suicidal pilot situation ? if they switch the transponder off is there military radar to see anything is wrong let alone take them down.
That would be an ecumenical matter – for the Irish.
😄
Get Father Jack to breath on them.
👍 That would contravene the Geneva Convention!
😀
Ireland:-
A people and a country struggling to find direction or indeed a raison d’être. An island in an ocean struggling to identify itself as a geographical entity of any consequence.
Wonder if the French FREMM in Bantry Bay is related to the visit as well?
As a Brit I would expect the same level of support as NORAD for the UK and Ireland. It’s in both countries interest to defend the airspace.
Sorry coming late to this discussion. Ireland and the UK do co-operate where possible in matters Defence and to all accounts enjoy good relations. There are several options. Could not the RAF operate a small flight of Typhoons from NI as part of a joint policing agreement between the two countries,sharing costs and utilising a small number of Irish and British personnel. It would make perfect sense geographically and as long as the rules are laid down and understood i think it would be a great excercise in cross border co-operation. The Irish guards are composed of people from both… Read more »
While the U.K. could of course base whatever it wants in NI there’s always the additional security issues that would bring, not sure whether or not the U.K. would want the additional headache and given the issues of any cross border incursions even in policing (mainly from DUP and other Unionists) having any DF personnel stationed in NI is likely a non runner politically speaking for Unionists.
Hi Mark. Nice to hear from you and hope you are well. I hear what you say and sadly agree and think that the hardliners are actually shooting themselves in the foot and harming the cause of Unionism especially in the more affluent areas where there is a Prod majority. In Donaghadee where my cousin lives, there is a 90% plus Protestant majority but the Alliance Party hold the Stormont seat. The other thing is that in reality what can Air Forces the world over really do to prevent 9/11 type attacks once the civilian plane is airborne? You would… Read more »
Yeah neither extreme does anything to help their communities really, but it’s NI…
Glad to see that your daughter has made it to the Real Capital, hope she enjoys the People’s Republic, but yeah not singling the Sash might be a good idea…😄
Would be a sensible solution. They’d need a radar though to task the fighters, otherwise they wouldn’t know there’s a problem until too late.
Unfortunately, it’s unlikely to happen. An alliance as such would call into question their neutrality.
Plus, even the current arrangement had to be kept quiet for fear of Irish public response to UK aircraft operating in their airspace.
As I’ve already posted the Radar project at least has started, though god knows when it will turn into actual hardware.
As for “calling into question our neutrality”, not really, our neutrality is basically whatever the government of the day says it is, and has the votes to back it.
But as I said, politically having DF units stationed in NI no matter what is beyond a red line for Unionists, they would never allow it.
Glad there’s some progress on radar. Re neutrality, was meaning more on the international stage. A formal agreement and staffing with Irish military personnel may ruffle some feathers in the global community. Given the EU membership and corresponding commitment to aid in defence of others, seems the political reality may be a tad different from the stated neutrality. I have no dog in this hunt & what the ROI choose to do (or not do) is entirely down to politicians, but if the people of Ireland want to have their airspace defended, and UK involvement isn’t desirable, perhaps closer alignment… Read more »
I doubt anyone internationally would give a flying feck if we choose some sort of more active neutrality, hell all the other European neutrals did/do do it. It’s entirely domestic knots that previous generations of governments have created that is the issue. Martin has decided to hold some non binding review during the summer but expect the usual BS from SF and the rest of the Left and hopeful buck passing by the Government. As to getting any nation to cover us, honestly unless it was under an active program for us to build up to at least the suggested… Read more »
That review (like many reviews) that Micheál is holding will be interesting to hear and see. Even more interesting if they actually act on some of it,
Well it’s already pissed off Pop Up Paul and his PBP and SF so it’s off to a good start already…
I love getting them types angry.
Agree Stu. Probably a non-starter
The Nationalist community didn’t like having UK troops in Northern Ireland. What would its’ reaction be to UK military aircraft ?
Hi Cedric. There are still a number of British defence personnel in NI. I would think that a joint Irish/British air defence setup would be welcomed more than opposed
The same as the Unionists reaction to Irish military in NI… Not well.
I see the BBC reporting NATO SF have been present in Ukraine, c50UK & just under 50 more from other nations. Serious breach of security, though I suspect they’re mainly training Ukraine forces.
When Russia invades your country raining death, destruction & misery on everyone, the more resisting the better.
Slava Ukraine. Slava Taiwan.
SF is a naughty quote on *this* thread.
No simulation required it is what it is and will be the same for a long time to come. I doubt Eire will ever, unless in extremis get its act together re its air defence since it knows the UK will always (for our own reasons) come to its aid.
Ireland Free Loading since 1922. They were better equipped in the 1940’s when they had a few Spitfires. Why does this matter?
Ireland is the soft belly of NATO that’s why. Also their ‘we are naked defence policy’ and lightweight spending on defence enables them to undercut the rest of Western states with a 12% Corporation Tax. Maybe at least they should be held to the same neutrality standards as Switzerland.
Its all about grievance and arrogance at this point to be griping on endlessly about history.
Point of information. The published specifications and capabilities of almost all military equipment are significantly different from reality. Overstatement is used for deterrent effect, understatement to gain a competitive advantage at minimal cost. I don’t know how much this affects this specific scenario, but it is something that makes the professional analysts smile.
A more real threat to Ireland would be the repeated presence off its West coast of Russian submarines and, on occasion, surface ships. Sometimes they come to watch JW exercises off the NW coast of Scotland, but not always. The UK has on each occasion been required to deploy a type 23 to deal with the problem. It is not a happy situation for either the UK or the Republic.