Spain will expand its combat aircraft fleet with 20 new Eurofighter Typhoons.

The announcement made at the ILA Berlin International Air Show today will see the number of Typhoons in Europe increase to 545 aircraft, delivered or on order say BAE Systems.

“The order will see the Eurofighter consortium deliver aircraft for the Spanish Air Force equipped with an advanced new electronically-scanning radar, ensuring it is ready to be part of the future battlespace into the 2060s and beyond.

BAE Systems leads the overall design, development, manufacture, upgrade and support for Typhoon aircraft in the UK. BAE Systems is responsible for manufacturing more than a third of components for every Spanish aircraft, including the aircraft’s front fuselage and tail, under a contract worth in excess of £500m.”

Andrea Thompson, Managing Director – Europe & International for BAE Systems’ Air sector, and Chair of the Eurofighter Supervisory Board, said in a news release:

“The Spanish Government’s commitment to purchasing additional Typhoons reinforces its position as one of the world’s most successful combat military aircraft. Every day we are seeing the important role which it plays in delivering air security in the skies over Europe and this investment only strengthens the international partnership which Eurofighter underpins.

The fact that an existing Typhoon operator is committing to buying additional aircraft only reinforces their confidence in the aircraft and its performance. Our people will now work alongside our Eurofighter partners to ensure we provide the Spanish Air Force with the aircraft it needs to secure its skies for decades to come.”

The announcement by Spain follows an order for 38 new Typhoons for Germany in November 2020. The firm say in the aforementioned news release that work is now underway on production of components for these aircraft at BAE Systems’ facilities in Samlesbury and Warton, Lancashire, with engineering teams supporting work on advanced new radar and sensors.

“More than 5,000 BAE Systems employees directly support the Typhoon programme in the UK, supporting more than 10,000 jobs in the UK economy as a whole. The order from Spain maintains continuity of Typhoon production in the UK beyond the middle of the decade.”

Final assembly of the aircraft for Spain will be undertaken by Airbus in Getafe, Spain, with deliveries scheduled to commence from 2025. The Typhoon aircraft will replace Spain’s ageing F-18 Hornet aircraft based at Gando Air Base in the Canary Islands.

For more on Typhoon, visit the BAE website here https://www.baesystems.com/en/product/typhoon

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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270 COMMENTS

    • It would be better to get more F35B ( when block 4 is ready) , probably cheaper and would allow a few extra carrier capable squadrons. I doubt there is money for either though.

      • If there is a truly capable block 4. All the news out of the UI.S. in recent months is suggesting that the whole programme is well adrift and could have initial dates of 2030/2035. For me, keep the F35b’s coming ( 60 ‘ish) for the carriers, and put in an order for another batch of forty Typhoons. Then wait for the Tempest but where practical accelerate the programme.

        • Actually there are Block 4 software drops already delivered.

          Block 4 isn’t just one big upgrade all in one go, it’s made up of many many software drops, up to and including 2029 at this stage (plus of course the Tech Refresh 3 hardware).

          Check out “Figure 11: Revised Delivery Plan for Block 4 and Post-Block 4 Capabilities”

          https://www.gao.gov/assets/730/720191.pdf

          Yes it won’t be completed until 2029, but it has started.

          • Appreciate that John but I’m not saying this. The U.S. is. “costly over runs and capability shortages” could lead to serious delays. As thing stand at this moment operational clearances will be delayed until 2029, not 2026 as expected.

          • Geoff,

            Yes fully aware of the three year slippage for Block 4 to be completed, eg, 2029 instead of 2026.

            I was disputing your ‘2030/2035’ dates that you wrote.

            Where do those dates come from?

          • O.K. 2029 not 2030. The remaining years are for order fulfilment assuming we are not going to order ahead of knowing whether block4 is acceptable.

          • They should never have used Agile, and the changes they are making (as stated in that document) to allow the Program Office to reprioritize without a change of contract will make things worse not better. To illustrate how divorced this project is from typical Agile projects, it has annual drops. A typical Agile project would have a drop somewhere between weekly and monthly. With a fortnightly drop I’d expect to get feedback if something isn’t right and sort it within the following fortnight (or sooner), and an emergency rollback will delay a maximum of two weeks work. When a plane leaves the door it won’t get an upgrade for years and rollback is not an option.

            There should be a clause in the contract to say the Program Office can’t change squat! In effect each drop needs to be scoped as a project in its own right. If the iterations are annual, the Program Office can reprioritise annually in the subsequent iteration. Just sending a letter to change priorities on the fly is a disaster. The system is too complex for the Program Office to have a clue about knock-on effects.

          • There Craig is a very interesting argument, one that might suit the RAF a whole lot better.

    • Keep the tranche 1s as pure air defence fighters and order another batch of 20 tranche 3s The RAF need mass

      • What do you want T3 and maybe T2 upgraded to T4 specs with UK CAPTOR radar?

        Or

        A larger fleet of increasingly useless planes?

        RAF don’t want T1 as they have totally different logistics and training requirements.

        Although I agree a purchase of new 24 new T4 would be ideal with the T2 & T3 upgraded.

        • Personally I’d ditch the whole of Europe’s Tranche 1’s into Ukraine over the next few years to replace their SU-27.

          If we had the cash T2’s get Radar 2….and an additional buy of 20 Typhoon EK (previously called ECR). The EK will give the RAF (and NATO) substantial new capability, plus they retain their full fighter capability. They would also be useful into the future in supporting F-35 and Tempest.

          • So would I, bar one problem: running costs.

            I don’t think Ukraine could afford to run Typhoon.

            T1 has a lot of 1980s electronics in it, left over from the BAE2000 project and there comes a point where those bits are less and less fixable as discreet components become NLA.

        • Just read a post by @GM over on twitter, that offers a different perspective. Tempest is due in service 2035, all our T2/3 Typhoons (107) have an OSD of 2040. So, 5 years to replace 107 aircraft, interesting times……..

          • All T2/T3 can’t have the same OSD as they had staggered ISD?

            I agree **if** that is true then we had better by some T4 pronto.

            Trouble is Doris seems to be in the grip of Rishi who doesn’t seem to get the memo that the peace dividend needs to be reversed. Mad Vlad couldn’t have sent a clearer memo TBH – well apart from how useless the Russian Army/Navy/AirForce are. The bit of the memo that everyone has missed is that we need huge numbers of mid tech weapons to finish something fast.

          • Know what you mean about different ISD/OSDs, but believe and might be wrong here, original OSD was 2035,ish which has since been pushed back to 2040. If this is the case, not sure how much more flex is left, as demise of T1 aircraft heeps more flt hrs on the rest of the flt. Now with the extra commitments due to Mad Vlad, the flt is being worked harder then normal.
            I think Tempest ISD is overly optimistic, and do wonder if we need some form of interim buy to mitigate any future possible delays.
            Yes, agree we need all sorts of med tech weapons/munitions in large numbers, but also the delivery systems…..

          • It’s pretty standard to just keep moving the OSD to the right, in the end the airframes can probably fly for much longer than the initial design life.

    • In an ideal world Paul, the RAF would replace the Tranche 1 machines with Tranche 4 (24) and upgrade all the Tranche 2 and 3 to the same advanced standard, to give a small but absolutely world beating fighter force.

      Such a force would be capable of taking on anything out there for years to come.

      The UK advanced Radar (10 years ahead of the F35’s), plus upgraded Meteor and ASRAAM, plus Spear3 etc, would give the RAF a massively capable aircraft for a very broad range of missions from A to A, A to G, electronic attack, active and jamming.

      It would more than hold the line until Tempest shows up in the mid 2030’s.

      • How do you actually know radar 2 is 10 years ahead of the F35 radar?
        That’s pure speculation , it hasn’t appeared yet.
        As for Meteor, yes it’s good, ut by the same measure US Amraam replacement will be far more modern, marching the range of meteor and the Chinese offerings.
        If there was money, I think either more F35B or even A would be the better option.

          • Interesting.

            Maybe the new missile has

            Lighter avionics; and
            More subtle fin interventions reducing drag; and
            Lighter warhead for same effect; and
            Better fuel burn by using RE intercooler; and
            Marginally larger fuel load with the saved weight margin?

            Could add up to the same thing?

            Maybe?

            Or could be a larger lump!

          • Not long to wait to establish more about this if rollout imminent, then. Ought to reduce some of the vagueness on the 260 parameters here.
            At present, does not seem too much of an advance over Meteor, which is quoted as 200km range and over Mach 4 (ok, on Wiki !). But effective range is depended on platform launch speed and detection capability, height of release and missile manoeuvring demands, just off top of head. Like the throttled loitering on Meteor, too.
            Absolutely, the AIM-260 wll be exellent, not least because it’s new, but happy for the relatively short wait to get more data, hopefully.
            Cutting F22 on basis? Surely not while we’re going to hell in a handcart right now.

          • I guess if they’re cutting numbers by 17% they only need for the missile to improve aircraft combat effectiveness by 17% to compensate…

        • Well David, because it’s still being tinkered with, F35 design was frozen many years ago and technology has seriously moved on.

          More advanced design transmit and be receive modules, on a much larger and movable dish, will mean significantly improved range, wide area scan and resolution.

          By natural extension of these features, excellent targeted electronic attack capability.

          It’s going to be a game changer….

          • I agree.

            The F35 radars are essentially early 2000’s tech. Very, very good but the software behind it is more significant than the sensors.

            Radar2 is, I think, structurally finished but the software/firmware is still evolving. Based on public utterances. By all accounts it is at a different level to anything else.

            So there way be more than a decade of evolution…….

        • David wrote:
          “”How do you actually know radar 2 is 10 years ahead of the F35 radar?””

          Moore’s law, which is why the best fighter jet in the world “The F22” operates on 1990s silicon chips which are less powerful than the chip found inside IPhones. I am led to believe that the F35 runs on   four PowerPC G4 processors jointly developed by Apple, Motorola, and IBM, they stopped making them in 2005. That said they are stable chips able to take all the knocks that military equipment will suffer. So to Radar 2, as its development didnt start until 2010, it will be able to uterlise much more modern chips than those found on the f22 and f35. saying that, I’m pretty sure I read that the US is going to upgrade all its F22, including all its electrics which will also include replacing those old chips

      • Remember reading about the EuroNeverfighter when it was meant to be coming into service , had all these prophecies of advantage such as helmet mounted sight and better radar than the APG-65 . What it eventuated as was a fighter that was so far behind the FA18E/F that an USN/Australian pilot had a far deadlier effective working platform than that ludicrous defective jet as per a German description of the Eurofighter . Compared to the F-35 the Eurotrash is a hunk of junk . Dont agree with me go ask some one in the RAF .

    • Not going to happen, look at all the strikes. we have a PM who is painted (and gives the impression) that he doesn’t care The left have copied how they demonised Maggie Thatcher with falsehoods:
      Milk snatcher (Where records show she was told to cut all Milk but fought for the right of junior children to still receive it)
      Shut down the Mines (Where we find that Labour under Wilson shut down more in a shorter time span)
      Waged war to get re-elected (and records show she was ready to hand over the Islands until the last minute)
      So a demonised Tory party and all of a sudden a load of Marxist Union leaders (All pro-Moscow regards the Ukraine and before somebody tries to shoot me down plenty of photos on the net with them visiting the east of the Ukraine since 2014)
      Decide to close down the country least effected by Moscow’s grip on Hydrocarbons and which is the biggest supporter of Kyiv. If Boris and the Tories are removed they will be replaced by a left of political centre party who will:
      1)     Stop all aid to the Ukraine, which it will excuse by opening all the doors to anybody and everybody to come to the Uk (including those with Polio and those who want to use the NHS to cut up people for spare parts..no wait)
      2)     Freeze all funding on current and future Military projects. Get rid of the Nuclear deterrent, cut the size of the military, with an aim to disbanded the miltary
      3)     Re-join the EU without a vote which will entail:
      a.      Breaking up the UK with Ireland getting the North, Scotland .and Wales to be given independence , Gib to Spain, Falklands to Argentina,
      b.     Join the Euro
      c.      Force the rump England to pay reparations to the EU for the hurt caused.
      d. I wouldnt be suprised if moves are made to charge those who voted for Brexit whith a hate crime. I mean I read yesterday that Students are demanding that the Conservatives are banned from Universities. The same lot who refused to condem ISIS the other year as it was….Islamophobic.

      All of which points in the direction of no new planes for the RAF

      Willing to put money on the above. Just glad I’m not white,(Just Like Gary Lineker) so I won’t be targeted by the wonk generation (pity the twat who tries thou) for re-education.

      • Indeed Thatcher was a saint. She didn’t shut down my local mining industry and she definitely wasn’t responsible for all the knock on effects to my local businesses or my father losing his job.
        Also, I wish I could forsee the future as well as you.
        I have been reading this column for a long time and I have learned a lot from its contributors including yourself.
        I do however seem to be in the minority politics wise.
        Please understand that this Labour party supporter is strongly in favour of a robust defence and expeditonary ability. You do no good by tarring all one partys supporters i.e “leftists” as agreeing with all you have listed above.
        Still, I was a police officer for 30 years and got used to being in the minority politically!

        • Thatcher may have shut some mines! but no ware near as many as the previous labour government’s. Manufacturing at that time was a joke. expensive and poor quality.Now done cheaper and better overseas. What we have now is very high value low volume specialists manufacturing with the skills to match. I know which I prefer.

          • According to gov.uk quoted on another site “43 per cent of mining jobs went in the 1960s under Wilson while 80 per cent were lost under Thatcher. Also, as the trend rate of economic growth was lower under Thatcher than Wilson (just 2.8 per cent compared to 3.4 per cent) and unemployment was considerably higher throughout the 1980s than the 1960s”
            But even that isn’t the point. I was trying to make the point that if you are personally affected by something-in this case pit closures and lack of jobs locally, it is insulting when someone makes light of it. Re manufacturing- are you talking about all the defence jobs in those times? Many of the “glory days ” equipment of the seventies were built under Labour.
            I reiterate- Not all Labour supporters are anti-defence. That is all I am trying to get across. It is not helpful when discussing defence issues to get sidetracked by such “my dad’s bigger than your dad” type arguments.

          • Russ wrote:
            “43 per cent of mining jobs went in the 1960s under Wilson while 80 per cent were lost under Thatcher.

            Seeing as i started this ball rolling please allow me to point out what I actually wrote in which to get back on track:
            “”Where we find that Labour under Wilson shut down more in a shorter time span””

            My point been, Harold Wilson (Labour) closed 253 pits as against Margaret Thatcher (Conservative) 115 and in a shorter time frame.

            I am ending this subject from my end simply in which to :
            1) Not p off people
            2) Not digress away from all things Miltary
            3) To enjoy a rum and coke on this fine warm day.
            https://i.postimg.cc/g2Ddm0k3/rum.jpg

            I’ll like to finish by asking everbody to make love and not war, but that didnt work out well for 3 Para did it.

          • UK GDP growth 1965-69 2.76% p.a.
            UK GDP growth 1974-76 -0.367% p.a.
            UK GDP growth 1979-90 2.59% p.a.
            source world bank
            You are right about unemployment.

          • The 80’s were an economic disaster for any part of the UK outside of London and the south east but since they are the only bits that matter Margaret Thacther is clearly a saint 😀

          • This is a thorny one … I think you have to step back and take a wider look.

            The 80’s were hard, many of us lived through the difficult changes.

            I left school in the teeth of it in 1982, very little work and myself and most of my friends on YTS schemes.

            Do I blame Mrs Thatcher …. No, it’s far to easy to blame her.

            Root and branch reform was needed across the whole country, it had been badly needing since the 1950’s, but no previous sitting government had managed it.

            Previous Labour governments to be fair, attempted reforms, but the Unions were so strong, they always backed down.

            Previous Conservative governments lacked the vision to anything.

            The Thatcherite reforms of the economy were needed and implemented, as harsh as they were, for me and my generation.

            We could only hope for a leader with her vision, iron leadership and strength today!

          • The issue is the UK has ended up with the greatest regional disparity in Europe outside of Italy. Unless you think the people of north England are unlikely thick in all of Europe (which I don’t) then the model derived in the 80’s under thatcher is still broken.

          • As a Northerner, I can say with some confidence, there are a good number of thick people here.

            But then I’ve worked in London long enough to know there are a good number of thick people there too 😄

            Jokes aside, you’re not wrong. Neither was John. Reforms were needed but they were not perfect. As with many things on such a scale the number of influencing factors is huge & there is no one fix. You were right that the current model appears broken.

            There’s a lot of Tory v Labour being debated on this thread but I think they’re both pretty dross. I’m with John & dreaming of a “leader with her [Mrs Thatcher] vision, iron leadership and strength today!” to maybe address some of these things as the melts we currently have on both sides don’t seem capable.

            What I do NOT want is a strong leader implementing the WEF vision of the future.

          • Hi Martin, the issue was the trickle down of finance from the new economic model was stymied by an international recession and that hit the former industrial areas the hardest.

            I went through it myself and as hard as it was, it still needed doing though.

            Mrs Thatcher had the brass bollox to push through unpopular reform

            Labour at the time had no plan but to carry on aimlessly kicking the ball down the road…

            No one today has the authority to grab the reigns of power and press on…..

          • Well said. Someone who told voters the truth and the reality of where Britain stood-not what they wanted to hear and what lies they had been told to garner votes.
            Blood Toil Tears and Sweat…but look where it got Winnie in the 1945 election.
            tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies….

          • The destruction of what had been some the worlds most productive cities and industries was well under way before Thatcher became PM and was decades in the making. Don’t blame the person who picked up the pieces for breaking the pot.

          • Hi Russ. Just a point-43% and 80% don’t add up to 100%. So Thatcher was responsible for 80% of a much smaller number. Also whether or not the 70’s equipment projects were “glory days’, the fact remains that much of the British Aircraft industry was destroyed by the cuts initiated by Wilson in the 1960’s. the truth as always, lies somewhere in between. I do agree with you however that many Labour supporters and MP’s have supported strong defence moves including the new carriers. i don’t subscribe entirely to the view that they were Gordon Brown’s bribe to his constituency. in addition it was David cameron who savaged the Royal Navy by scrapping the last of the Invincibles along with the Harriers
            Regards

        • Russ,

          The point I was making was how so many Marxist union reps are going out of their way to not only close down the Uk, but to remove the elected Government from outside the ballot box with an aim to replacing it with one more friendly to their political bent which I feel they will try to achieve by hoodwinking the masses by playing the EU card.

          As for Maggie, I used the example of how the left of the political centre throw mud in the hope some sticks in which to brainwash the masses to their way of thinking Love her or hate her, the simple fact remains the left threw a lot of mud in her direction. a lot stuck

          Society has changed , where black has become white and white has become black. Currently we are seeing a huge rise in people who subscribe to the view that:
          1)     Russia is the victim regards its invasion of the Ukraine and that NATO is to blame
          2)     We should give peace a chance by
          a.      Sweet talk Kyiv to stop fighting and allow Moscow to keep what it has stolen by giving it EU membership
          b.     Break up NATO, which will see defence cuts
          c.      With no doubt pay reparations to Moscow for supporting the Nazis in the Ukraine with Weapons 

          Finally the only time I mentioned the Labour Party was in relation to Harold Wilson elsewhere i mentioned the left Marxist union reps and the tories.

        • Good to hear it Russ. However, for all the traditional Labour voters like your good self I think Farouk was talking of the likes of the Labour Party membership, Young Labour, and the Parliamentary Labour Party ( who I fear have not changed their spots one bit ) after the previous regime.

          And they will have their ideology regardless of many Labour voters like yourself.

          So hopefully when Labour get in you will vote them out again, although by then it will be too late won’t it with that sad list. If it comes to pass…

        • I don’t tar people who are centre left but for god’s sake can’t the Labour party get its act together and ditch the extreme looney left. The UK (before the 1920s) broadly had conservative and Liberal parties that were broadly socially conservative (both of them). The difference was in the economic policies broadly. Now we have a choice of a slightly left of centre Tory party or an extreme left wing Labour party full to the brim of Corbynista’s. What has happened to the Labour party since the 1940s? I just don’t get why they are on a one band mission to destroy the UK. They get told time and time again that the working class hate woke politics, are patriotic to teh crown and want strong borders, strong defence, a strong police force (not police service) and investment in manufacturing but they keep coming up with policies that are the complete opposite. Please tell me why they are doing this in the face of all the evidence that Britain does not want policies that are extreme left wing?

          • If I knew that mate…..!
            Some of my current party wouldn’t have lasted 5 minutes in the past in the local Labour club before they, ahem “had their clocks cleaned”
            But I guess all parties have their loony wings the mistake is to think they are a majority.

          • I seem to remember the Tory’s being run by a comedian from have i got news for you and several tax dodgers, drugs addicts and felons while the leader of the Labour Party is the former head of the crown prosecution service. Labour may have a looney left but atleast they are kept in tow most the time. The Tory’s let theirs run wild, Michael Gove regularly showing up on TV wasted in drugs and I don’t even know what anyone could say about Moggs. Meanwhile the PM’s wife runs the cabinet via WhatsApp. Who’s the loneys?

          • Fair point but as I said the Tory are centre left now and not socially conservative. I really despair as I can’t vote for anyone currently. I would add that Keir Starmer had some very dodgy decisions when he was in the crown prosecution service…he may say that Jimmy Saville wasn’t in his scope but it was….also Keir’s party really does want to undo Brexit and for me that is a big no. Finally both parties are deliberately increasing immigration to the UK in the face of all evidence that it puts massive strain on infrastructure and increases house prices. For instance the Tories have a blanket welcome to huge numbers of Hong Kong Chinese with no democratic vote on the issue. I sympathize with their plight but it’s not our responsibility to house them all. I have come to the realisation that both parties are lying and just run the country for their own benefit – both Labour and the Conservatives. It’s just a question of which party does the least damage. The fact that Keir keeps kneeling for BLM and also that he doesn’t know what a woman is that is a big turn off for me personally.

          • I think your very much alone in the country on your views for people from Hong Kong. They are as British as you or I an entitled to be here and that is not up for some referendum. They have been issued with a British passport for many years.

          • Really Martin I’m alone…look at the comments and you’ll see people agree with me. You are factually incorrect on British passports for Hong Kong Chinese as they were only offered on February 18th 2021. They were an overseas colony which was leased until 1997 from the Chinese government. They are Chinese nationals that lived in a leased colony.

          • Hi Andrew, you should not take support from a small group of little Englanders as a national poll. In Yougov polling (which is a national poll) the measure has 64% approval with 22% against and 14% undecided. Those are pretty amazing numbers of support for any issue in the UK.

            Also you are clearly mistaken about the legal status of either Hong Kong or its people. Firstly the territory was not leased its was owned in perpetuity only the New Territories and and parts of Kow Loon where leased and the individuals in questions have a British Overseas Passport and have done for a long time well before 2021.

            its no different to Gibraltar other than the colour of the peoples skin.

          • Bravo Andrew. In full agreement.

            Mass immigration is the biggest issue this nation faces but no-one will reduce to sensible levels until it is far far too late.

            Immigration yes, unlimited free for all, no.

          • Yes, funny.

            Funnily enough the concerns of millions like me in the silent majority are ignored each time, or just called “racist ” by the usual liberal elites.

            Funny that!

          • There may be millions but it’s 22% of the country. That’s why no one listens. I never called anyone a racist.

          • There issues are primarily caused by the double whammy of Covid and the current Ukrainian War…

            Both these issues will resolve over the next few years as new supply lines for oil and gas are worked out and the job market naturally regulates itself, via encouraging wages, or work visas for certain industries…

          • Almost 100% agree with everything you say. Every election I have to hold my nose & vote for the lesser of 2 evils. I pray we have a viable choice soon (any anyone saying “Lib Dem”.. no. Just, no.).

            My only exception would be the Hong Kong issue; I do feel we should shoulder some responsibility & so far only 88k have come despite the open door policy. BUT we have got to get a handle on immigration in the first place, not the 300k net + 87k illegals each and every year(!!!) which as you rightly say, puts massive strain on everything.

          • I wish I could have 5 minutes with many members of parliament as it would make me feel much better! I’m sure most of the country feels the same way.

          • I think the answer lies in this little observation…post 1960s the Labour party owes more to Marx than methodism, previous to that the counter was true.

          • Very true Nathan. I 100% agree that observation. I would vote for the Labour party of 1946 in a heat beat.

          • I personally think it’s because in the post mass industrial era, Labour can’t really find it’s place.

            As a result, it’s power base is an odd mix of the old Unions twinning with London centric Liberal elite.

            Woke Politics tick the box, so that’s the direction of travel…

            Just my opinion of course…

          • Oh I think Labour has found its place. The far left and let anyone into the country who they think is a potential Labour voter.

          • Unfortunately the Tories offer a “lite” version of this at the moment as well 🙁 I’m politically homeless at the moment 🙁

          • I would agree with on the unholy alliance. What I can’t understand is why Labour don’t appoint a socially conservative, reasonably fiscally prudent person that believes in strong manufacturing base, strong defence, strong borders and a strong police force (not police service). They would get a landslide tomorrow if they did. It’s like both parties have been captured by the upper middle class to the detriment of 80% of the rest of the population. These upper middle class control the media, organs of politics and most of the institutions in this land. If they are not careful politics will become incredibly divisive – even more so than recent times. Most people want a roof over their head that they own, a decent retirement, good schools and a future for their children – both parties don’t offer this at the moment. Also forget the Lib Dems as they just ape Labour.

          • Absolutely Andrew, such a party would get my vote in a heartbeat.

            The UK has a golden future ahead of it, yet no one seems to want to grab the reins and push on…..

        • There is another name in that tale. One Arthur Scargill who decided he would use the power of the NUM to bring down the Government. Thatcher was never going to bow down in the face of (popular buzz word alert) such an insurrection, which is what it became. He was shouting through his megaphone that he demanded Jobs for life for us and for our children, meanwhile my Grandfather and Father (both South Yorkshire Mineworkers) told me -Don’t work at the pit, study hard at school and get out, which I did, got a place at Grammar School and have done very well thanks. He never spoke for my family.

      • I don’t believe most of the stuff that comes out of extreme press on all sides.
        Black ice to be renamed as its offensive😂
        Tories putting the value of fox hunting on school curriculum😂
        Corporal punishment to be reintroduced for persistent offenders😂 etc etc.
        All just the usual rubbish. Take the worst and the best you hear and the truth is normally in the middle

        • MS wrote:

          I don’t believe most of the stuff that comes out of extreme press on all sides.

          Oh I agree totally, and I have a nasty habit of checking the facts, such as the story pushed out by the BBc today of that poor somali migrant child who lost his finger running away from so called racists the BBC headline reads:
          Raheem Bailey: ‘Racism and constant abuse’ of boy who lost finger
          Yet looking in the story I can find no mention that he was running away from racists, but rather he was running away from bullies. (which has me beleiving this bullies were the same colour as he) yet the BBC floods the article with how he was subjected to racist abuse. and then I came across this:

          She set up a fundraising campaign following the incident which has received over £100,000 in donations.

          over at the Guardian they promugate how since Brexit the UK has become the nation least in tune with Nature coming last out of Europe.reading the source we find only 13 EU nations were used and then there this sailent bit of information.
          https://i.postimg.cc/x8tW79Dn/FV8-Ee-Kp-WIAA5-I7c.png

          which is backed up by this chart which states that rain stops people going out into the countryside.

          • What always amuses me is the yawning silence from the left leaning once they’ve been debunked.

            On news outlets, why is it everytime I go on Google and click News the headline articles are Gaurdian. Independent. Sky News. BBC. ? All biased anti Tory pro EU to the hilt. No right leaning at all.

            Brainwashing? Favouritism? Agenda? What happened to impartiality?

          • It does happen the other way, JRM was banging on about EU laws we could drop, highlighting that sparkling wine had to be sold in glass bottles and why not drop that law and use plastic bottles, until it was pointed out that it was unsafe due to the build up of pressure.

          • DM you’ve nailed it. I have always believed impartiality should be a corner pillar of journalism excellence. There is no doubt in mind that quality journalism is all but gone.

            NZ Is equally guilty, the standard pf journalism here is appalling , which i think is largely “dictated” by the funding model from our current left leaning governments. There is no desire or ability to hold the government to account in any meaningful way.

            The only journalists I admire and respect are those on the front line in Ukraine – true hero s.

          • In regards to the schoolboy issue, as I live in the town were it happened in there is far more to the story than has been in the news. The mother presented a different image of herself to the media, then she presented in public before it happened and now seems to have disappeared. personally starting a go fund me campaign, not really a good move eather. it is very unlikely that in a South Wales valleys town he was running away from anybody who was his colour, however that seem to have been all sort of other things going on in the back ground. For once Mark Drakeford got it right by saying it wasn’t time to hold an enquiry about racism in schools when ask about it in the assembly (maybe he know more that he was letting on)

      • I must say, your post is really disappointing.

        Openly claiming that unions are “Marxist” and “pro Moscow”. The rail unions primary reason for taking strike action is because the terms and conditions of their employment are being changed, and the cutbacks to staff will lead to fatal incidents happening on British railways.
        It’s P&O all over again.

        No major party has pledged to stop all aid to Ukraine, although I read the BNP did though…

        No major party has pledged to immediately mothball the armed forces or the nuclear deterrent.

        Rejoining the EU?
        In case you had not noticed, the popular nationalist conservative facist government, has already broken the agreements it made with the EU concerning the Irish border. The probability that Britain leaving the EU would lead to a border between northern Island and the rest of the UK was clearly the only possible outcome.
        The USA, and the EU nations were clear that the UK breaking the good Friday agreement would
        not be tolerated.
        Scottish independence is back on the table, again, directly because of brexit.

        Let’s be clear here, Napoleon could not defeat the UK, nor could Hitler destroy us.
        Boris Johnson has almost managed it though.
        A reunified Island, Scottish and Welsh independence, and the end of our United Kingdom was the obvious result of voting leave, especially when nobody but the Tory elite had any say in what direction the UK would take after we left.

        Nobody has proposed we join the Euro.

        England won’t be paying any repatriations, to anybody, because we left the EU.

        Since we have left the EU, I have so far lost my voice and right to vote in the EU.
        My right to protest.
        My human rights and freedom of speech currently going through parliament right now.
        Soon I will lose my right to take strike action, paid holidays and sickness and maternity pay.
        Part of the conservative manifesto for the last general election clearly stated that health and safety legislation would be repealed as soon as possible too.
        Companies now have to pay tariffs for everything they import, which we have to pay more for that product, with VAT on top too!
        It is the primary driver of inflation in the UK.

        Every claim you have made, is almost identical to the Russian bot accounts pro brexit bullshit.

        • Mate…
          Where to start…

          “will lead to fatal incidents” any proof of this certainty? Increased hours (more than 35?), reducing staff (they’re not needed), small pay rise (given commuter numbers & therefore revenues are down)….
          Its Ireland not “Island”.
          If we have to have a hard border (not inevitable) in NI, so be it. The Good Friday Agreement never said there wouldn’t be one.
          Scottish Independance was never off the table. Naive to think the SNP will ever give up on that.
          “Reunitifed Ireland”, blah blah “Obvious result”…. no it wasn’t. If it was, why didn’t anyone mention it in ALL the other nonsense they told during the Brexit debate?
          “nobody but the Tory elite had any say” – I suggest you look up what a representative democracy is. It’s kind of what we voted for – or the nearest approximation of what the people wanted give the shower of ******* that are UK politicians regardless of party.
          Its Fascist, not “facist”. We also don’t have a Fascist Gov. This word is bandied around like it means nothing these days – very annoying. Look it up. No forceable supression of opposition, no top-down economic dictats, no regimentation of society….
          Want to vote in the EU? You’re welcome to leave. Move to the EUU and vote away.
          I’ll agree with you that the Tories are bringing in legislation that I do not agree with with respect to protesting. A “modest reset” is perhaps needed to address certain disruptive tactics but as ever, the legislation goes too far.
          Freedom of speech… that was destroyed long before Brexit my dear boy. I suggest you look up the abomination that is S127 of the Communications Act 2003 as a starting point. Many are trying to bring it back but too many think they have a right not to be “offended”.Companies & tariffs – we used to pay VAT before Brexit, it was just charged and processed in the country of origin as it was all the EU. Now we’re independant, EU retailers should charge UK VAT on your purchase but often don’t so you have to pay it seperately upon delivery. Try selling something in 99% of the world & you’ll find this is normal. We voted to leave, these were the known consequences.
          VAT is certainly NOT the “primary driver of inflation” – I’d suggest you take a look at “quantative easing”, how much GBP is in circulation over time (and USD as the global currency market has it’s effects) as well as energy costs (lots of factors there) and supply chain disruption due to Covid.

          In short, every claim you have made, is almost identical to the nonsense spouted in the leftist echochamber that is Reddit.

        • The strikes have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with modernisation. We’re decades behind some countries who have driverless trains, drones that inspect track with cutting edge laser measuring. Quite frankly we pretty much invented railways now We’re not even a follower in rail technology. Its an embarrassment. Of course automation undermines the political power of the unions so I guess they have the most to loose.its certainly not P&O all over again.

      • When you are in a hole the first thing to do is stop digging. We do need to change what we are doing. Untrammelled free market economics is causing world-wide deprivation and is trashing the earth’s ecology. An increasing number of reputable economists are now thinking we need to rethink how global economics works. Migration and wars are caused by a system which elevates individualism, GDP growth and profit to ends in themselves at the expense of personal dignity, democracy and social cohesion. Neither communism, nor populism, nor authoritarianism are the answer. We fresh a politics, but the answer does need to acknowledge that wealth does not ‘trickle down ‘; that food and goods should be produced with the involvement of all and for the sake of all and that relationships should be characterised by fraternal respect, dialogue and reciprocity. No-one has all the answers. We need to talk this through if things are to change it or the better. The attitude of the current govt is I’ve got the answer and I’m going to force it into law without any real discussion. Such an attitude is bound to lead to disaster.

        • Wealth doesn’t trickle down. Urm, it does capitalism has dragged more people out of real poverty than any other system. The reality is its been too successful allowing populations to live longer, afford consumer goods, access to information. The very screen your looking at the Internet are products of fulfilling need, as are life saving plastics used in the hospitals, of course a by product of the oil and gas industry. We don’t need to throw the baby out with bath water. The notion that capitalists like to keep people poor is obserd, a healthy and wealth population is going to spend more for longer than a poor and unhealthy one.

    • Totally agree Paul. The bean counters in Whitehall have already cut numbers to below acceptable levels. Our typhoons are probably the busiest in Europe. We will never purchase anywhere near the original number of F35B’s that was stated by Government. For sure we do not have enough Typhoons. Every time a new Tranche comes along the overall numbers in operation seem to be cut.

    • How did a post about replacing tranche one Tiffys end up about coal mines and the economic policies of the Cold War years.

      For the record, the current labour government wants to increase defence spending. To balance the political debate the unions were too strong and unreasonable in the 70s and the mines weren’t sustainable economically and environmentally (climate change is bad but policies have started to make a difference slowing the impact which has been helped by the reduction in coal use).

      It helps no one resorting to
      stereotypes and exaggerated attacks (the Tories aren’t evil, labour isn’t run by Marxists who want to sell the country out, the SNP leadership are not English hating or republicans, the Liberal democrats exist I suppose…)

      Let’s take the heat out of these debates and remember most people want the best for the country and it’s inhabitants even if they disagree passionately on how to achieve that (apart from that most contributors to this site probably believe we need more fighters of course 😃)

  3. That’s good. So that takes production upto the middle of the decade the article says. I’ve not heard of a plan of how to keep BAE busy with planes until tempest starts being built. I don’t even know if that is needed in the aircraft building world? Don’t want a loss of skills and then a huge cost to get the skills back again.

    • Some more orders coming, Egypt is about to order some from Italy and Turkey is preparing to quickly order if US Congress blocks its request for F-16’s. Factor in possibility of Germany ordering another tranche and a chance Serbia might order some and we could see production hit well over 800.

      • Would you trust Turkey with T4 given their cozying to Putin with S400?

        There was a reason they were tossed out of F35 world……

        • Turkey is ploughing a more independent furrow. They are not cosying up to Putin (or those TB2s wouldn’t be destroying so much Russian hardware in Ukraine). It was claimed they were tossed out of the F-35 project because Russians would be setting up the S-400s and they could record the F-35’s characteristics.

          But the Russians are gone. The S-400s have been isolated. They don’t report back to Russia and the reason Turkey are still out is because they challenged the word of the almighty USA. That’s also the main reason they were turfed out of the supply chain, which caused delays and cost increases for everyone.

          • The S400 buy was a massive miscalculation.

            You can’t have a foot in both camps and be totally trusted.

            I suppose the only advantage was that NATO knew how useless it really was?

            I don’t think any country, US or not, would tolerate that level of insult.

          • They say the middle of the road is where you are most likely to get run over.

            I admit I don’t understand why you feel the way you do. It’s okay to buy 30bn euros of petrochemicals from Russia annually as Germany has and is still trusted, but a one off purchase of a missile system is an unforgiveable insult?

            Central European gas imports have contributed significantly to Russia military spending. Without them current invasion of the Ukraine would not have happened. Tell me again, what did Turkey’s purchase do apart from violate US/EU sanctions that Turkey never agreed to?

            If Turkey sent its S-400s to the Ukraine as America requested, now that would be an insult. One that Putin richly deserves.

          • I feel the US by trying to strong arm Turkey into buying US damaged NATO by bushing them towards Russia. So what if you wish to buy a non-US system that is their concern. Personally I would not buy it because I might be fighting Russia and could not get spares and ammunition from them.

            They probably would have done better to buy an ASTER 30 basses system (not US not Russian).

          • Buying a natural resource to simply burn (despite its financial implications) is completely different to handing over state of the art equipment to a dictator who changes his allegiance like most people do underwear.

        • Totally agree. At this present time I’d not be selling peer equipment to Turkey. For the right deal I could see them allowing Russian technicians to examine the Typhoon and all its modern equipment.

          • Mad Vlad has increasing amounts of oil and gas on his hands. Oh and a big stockpile of grain that he is trying to get rid of……

            You could bribe any despot with that lot!!

      • What planet will Serbia be buying any? And why the fuck would we sell them any? They are firmly in the Russian and Chinese camp.

      • Serbia wont order typhoon. They want our hand-me-down tranche 1s. Would be a bad idea supplying Serbia with anything. They are in Putin’s pocket.
        Definetly dont give them advanced radar or meteor access. The Russians andChinese would be reverse engineering it in seconds all courtesy of Serbia.

        • One of the mags I purchased this month, is running an article on the state of affairs regards European airforces and for Serbia has the French as the fav to win the contract for Belgrades plane to replace its 14 Mig 29s with 12 second hand Rafales from the French AAE which the frnech newspaper La tribune stating the offer was made to Serbia in March. It follows that up with the Uk offering 12 of the tranch 1 Typhoons as a counter sale. The end of the article stated that serbia signed a contract in 2016 with Russias state own defence export company Rosoboronexport for a long term maintance support contract

      • I’m not sure why Serbia needs an airforce?

        NATO are not going to invade and they are best mates with Mad Vlad?

        • You think being best mates with Vlad would stop him invading? There are nearly twice the number of Russian troops permanently stationed in Belarus (30,000) than in their own army (16,000).

    • If you have 5 min, read this – https://www.baesystems.com/en/factory-of-the-future – in short, plan is for robots to prevent skills atrophy. Some very cool stuff.

      Regards keeping busy – I cannot understand for the life of me why BAE are not looking at a Hawk replacement.

      Boeing estimates they need to build 2,500(!!) T7’s to supply everyone they think will need a new trainer. The T7 leverages loads of Saab tech (including engine and cockpit electronics) in a new, easy to build & maintain package. The AERALIS concept continues to gain traction too.

      Where are BAE on this? Blows my mind they don’t appear to have something to take to market yet. I’m being cynical here but; are they waiting for a government to pay them to design one?

      • The issue being that making planes ‘old school’ is out of the window. The present, labour intensive, skin over frame has got to go at some point.

        I find it remarkable that it has persisted for so long when F1 when to all carbon a while back.

        When you get rid of a lot of the high stress metalwork fast printing abs therefore prototyping and even production becomes closer to a thing.

        Before you scoff too much, on my racing bike, the all carbon frame is lighter than the wheels. Really. On a 6.8kg bike the frame is less than 800g.

        OK with planes it is more complex with heat dissipation and battle damage repairs etc to consider.

        The days of making stuff WWII style, on jigs with rivets, can’t end soon enough. The idea of the painful development of Tornado or BAE2000 -> Typhoon has got to go out of the window. Tech ages increasingly fast: so planes must go faster from R&D to production.

        • Agreed bud. Not going to scoff at anything you said.

          It’s part of what Factory of the Future is – no more jigs; robots hold parts where they need to be for assembly. This way if the design is changed/updated, it can be implemented in moments, don’t need whole new jig, just tell the robot the new measurements & it adjusts.

          When I say ‘Hawk replacement’ I didn’t mean a recylcled Hawk. I meant clean sheet design – leverage some of the tech they already have for Typhoon (displays, engine etc.) like Boeing did with Saab & design a 21st century trainer a la Aeralis. If I worked there, I’d be thinking ‘if we just get 20% of the global market, thats 500 jets to build’.

          Prototyping etc – agreed. Rapid prototyping is 100% a thing BAE need to be on to. The USAF claim they are already testing 6th Gen fighter thanks to such tech. There’s talk of smaller batches of new types every few years like back in the 50’s as the new tech makes it possible and affordable without retooling every few years.

        • Certainly possible the A350 wings are all layered carbon fibre done by robots. Boeing tried a polycarbonate wing on their x32 that list to the now F35.

          • Exactly this.

            But civil airlines are one thing g and the battle stresses and damage of military are something else.

          • True there little question carbon fibre can take the stress but it’s more difficult to patch and repair.

        • I think the unions perfectly well understand that riveted planes are history in the medium term. Typhoon would, almost certainly, be the last.

          There will be plenty of more secure jobs as a result of Tempest moving at pace.

          BAE has, to be fair, had reasonable industrial relations.

          Anyway: this is out there on their website!

      • There’s still risk of loosing skills in some areas like QA, inspection, and final assembly techniques. I think most new tech will be in component or section manufacturing. Its not surprising countries like Turkey will demand they do final assembly because they want those skills and knowledge

  4. What is the point of that comment?

    We have F35B in hand and more on order which are much more useful than Harrier GR7/9 or AV8B for any real world situation.

  5. Not in the Spanish Air force they don’t, which is what this story is about.

    The Spanish Navy still operate 12 of this 44 year old design. Simple fact is they can’t afford to replace them and the F35B is the only game in town.

    • The main thing is what does Spain use its carrier for? Is it ground support only? Fleet defence? Do they need F35B just now? As a weapons carrying platform the harrier may have a bigger variety of what they see as weapons needed.
      Once block 4 is ready and the marine Corps retire harrier they will switch or retire naval planes.

    • Until the F-35 can carry UK weapons of choice, it can at best have a supporting role, primarily as an integrator. It needs to add at least Meteor/JNAAM and Spear, and even then it will rely on Typhoons or loyal wingmen for stand-off strike delivery. The alternative is to give up on UK missiles and buy American, rewarding them for deproritising our needs.

      24 more Typhoons is a sensible purchase for the UK right now. But I can’t see it happening. The RAF is too politically weak.

      • We may well see an order to tide BAE over until they have something newer to make.

        It is all politics but at least the issue of skills fade is understood.

      • The RAF is not politically weak. We have a huge equipment plan, and the money only goes so far. We are upgrading our Typhoons to a very high standard. More capable than new builds for Germany and Spain.We want more F35’s, fund Tempest, a host of new weapons coming on-line. Its all big money, and difficult choices have to be made.

  7. I’d like to see a follow on order for the RAF if nothing more than to keep production line open and maybe replace the absolutely pointless decision to get rid of the T1 but drones and lethality etc etc

          • I was wondering when the aspect of truly contested airspace was going to come up out of the conflict. All of these drones are great until you find out how vulnerable they are.

            That’s before we factor in the massive RF signature they’re going to give off if used en masse. There can be no such thing as a truly Stealth Drone unless it’s completely autonomous – and if we want, for ethical reasons, a human in the kill chain, then they can’t be autonomous.

            Huge benefits no doubt, but not the silver bullet they’re being touted as. Merely another club in the bag so to speak.

          • Drones received more data than they send and interms of radar emissions and sensors that would be the same as manned aircraft.i believe Taranis project was uks test bed for stealthy antenna.

          • Ok, that makes sense, however we also need to consider the control stations. Until now, they’ve really been an operational level asset and been controlled from a long way away. However what we see now is integration of RPAS at the tactical level, as a result the control station will need to be closer to the commander. We’ll need to be really careful about how we disperse them otherwise our HQ elements will be a really easy target to anyone with good ELINT, and DF capability. It’ll be like having to disperse your antenna farm but on a much harder scale.

            I don’t know a lot about warfare from boats, but I suspect a Carrier group already has a significant RF signature. A heavy RPAS air group will add to that – and I’d hate to be the guy that has to do frequency deconfliction.

      • How have I not heard this idea before!? If nothing else, use as tech demonstrator/testbed for loyal wingman. But a mach 2 drone with 750 mile range & 9 ton payload anyone?
        I’m sure someone will have some good reasons as to why not but sounds good to me.

      • Give them to the Arrows. Entertaining in the short term and if things do go pear shaped ten T1’s in reserve would be preferable to ten Hawks.

  8. Speculation on further UK jets.

    Best option is:
    4 x F35B Squadrons
    4 x F35A Squadrons
    8 x Typhoon FGR4 Squadrons

    Affordable with UK defence spending at 2.5% as it should be, especially with what is going on in Ukraine.

    • Pipe dream sadly. With the latest defence uplift the forces are getting smaller.
      Jon outlined to me on another thread 44 billion to Nuclear/ DNO / AWE / Trident / SSN SSBN over next 10 years, there’s the money.
      I predict remaining at 8. 5 Typhoon ( down 2 ) 3 F35. ( Up 2 ) from current numbers, with hopefully squadrons of UCAV supplementing.

      Which I would take if they’re all top spec and the UCAVs arrive as planned.

      • My concern is the repeated news about upgrades/new engines for F-35 A & C but no intention to adapt to the B. The decision to change to C and then not could well come back to haunt the RN. but of course none to the current Whitehall warriors will be about to give a toss. The QE’s were supposed to be able to accom Cats/Traps in the requirement as they are expected to last twice long as the aircraft designs. think we need to seriously look at changing them sooner rather than later and converting new F-35’s to C model

        • Wonder if RR could make the whole power plant for the F-35Bs or something new? An evolved Pegasus design, JV or under license?

          • Pegasus worked in a totally different way to what is in the F35B and it won’t support supersonic flight.

            Yes, RR could develop a power plant for F35B but why spend money going solo down a very expensive and high risk route.

          • Hi SB,
            I’m not an Engineer so more than prepared to be laughed at and put back in box.

            I have a query regarding jet engines (specifically Harrier/F-35B) is there a reason why you could not take the front LP fans and vector thrust nozzels from a Pegasus Mk107 and using an extended drive shaft match up with the HP fans/vector thrust nozzle of the F135? which for my limited thinking would allow the vstol and super cruise

            A drive shaft is used to power the 20k lbs current lift fan so i can’t see that as a problem. Air would flow through 3 channel through the fuselage, a central duct direct around the shaft to the HP fans and 1 either side that would direct the thrust from the front nozzles back into to HP part during normal flight, this would be redirect down during VSTOL Ops, additional air would be added via top vents to the HP fansas is done on the F-35B. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning_II#/media/File:F-35B_cutaway_with_LiftFan.jpg

            Cheers Steve

          • I’m no jet engine expert either.

            I think the issue is that the geometry is wrong. To alter the geometry of the built plane would be a massive undertaking. The point of where the lift fan is on F35B is to get it as far forward as possible: the further fOnwards the less absolute thrust/power it needs.

            In F35B the fan is vertical – Pegasus was all horizontal with ducts.

            Because F35B uses vectored thrust this will create a huge turning moment that the front fan/nozzles would have to counteract.

            Pegasus used 4 sets of main nozzles relatively close to the wing to reduce the fore/aft rotational moments.

            It probably could be done but it would require something so fundamentally different that I cannot see it going into the F35B airframe. It would probably be easier to start from scratch.

          • Was thinking more Son of F-35b or Harrier X, i can’t see the F-35b being in service in 30 years

          • Thanks for the info on this Paul. So near but so far. Hope VSTOL development doesn’t stop with the F35B. I like Steve’s “Harrier X” tag above.

        • If any F35 gets canned it’ll be the F35C. The only operator is the USN and they’ve been cutting back on orders while the F35B is picking up more and more international customers. Engine upgrades are planned for all versions of F35.

        • The problem may not be a problem, as more countries have bought the F35B than expected. If there is a healthy market, then there should be an appetite for upgrades. The current Pratt& Whitney F135 is going through a modification program currently. This is due to hairline cracks found in a number of the hot section turbine blades. It predominantly effects the F35B’s -600 variant. As this places the greater strain on the engine when in the hover.

          P&W have an enhancement program mapped out for the F135. With Block 1 giving a 6 to 10% thrust improvement along with a reduction in fuel burn by 5 to 6%. The block 2 will deliver more electrical power and better cooling. When engines are going through maintenance and the cracks are found, they are replacing the current turbine disc with the enhanced one. They have also fitted an uprated intermediate section. This will increase the power slightly, but enable the engine to handle the elevated temperatures when the aircraft is in the hover for longer. P&W are still planning to incorporate the full Block 1 modification.

          The two prototype adaptive cycle engines, the GE X100 and the P&W X101, are supposed to be plug and play drop-ins for the current F135-100. But because the F35B requires tap-off streams for the roll posts, along with the increased temperature rises when using the swivelling nozzle. Neither engine has been built for these elevated temperatures or the tap-off air streams. They will need to be heavily modified to work in a F35B.

          So far neither company has said they will modify the new engines to work with the F35B. But now that there are many more countries operating the F35B, there is a greater precedence for a better engine, especially following the Block 4 upgrade. Could Rolls Royce and GE resurrect the F136, which was a more powerful engine to begin with? Or could Rolls Royce go it alone? If the new engine is made, it will still need to go through an exhaustive amount of testing and flight trials. But I think there will definitely be a market for it, especially when you consider over 500 F35Bs so far, are either in service or have been ordered!

          • I don’t think the problem exists the other way around so a F13n engine for the B would be a candidate for the A and C. GE has said they can do some re-engineering to get their x100.engine to work in the B but the issue is funding.

          • Not heard GE say they could modify the X100, but if they can great. Like I said earlier, there’s now going to be over 500 B models, with the USMC having over 300. So I’d like to say there’s a healthy market for an improved engine.

      • Hi DM

        How are tricks? Interestingly, Rob’s suggestion would place the RAF at the same level of front line fast jet squadrons post the 2003/4 cuts = 16. (excluding OCU squadrons).

        As you point out, it will never happen. The numbers you tabled do seem viable though. I’m guessing there will be provision for a couple of RN squadrons from the joint shared F35 pool, eventually?

        Have a good weekend!

        • Morning K.

          The next squadron to form is a RN FAA Squadron.
          I think what many people ask for on this forum are fully FAA manned and funded squadrons, totally RN owned and operated F35 aircraft.

          Unlikely to happen as, like Joint Force Harrier, all squadrons are jointly manned regardless of the RAF or FAA number plate.

          I’d also prefer an all FAA fleet like many, leaving other RAF squadrons to do their thing elsewhere and only deploy to QEC in extremis.

          But with limited numbers I understand why things are done this way.

          I also believe the aircraft are RAF owned, despite the RN shopfront! Though happy to be corrected on that.

          • Thanks DM , I agree with your view on an all FAA fleet, but can appreciate the funding restraints. So a joint shared pool is fine, better to have this capability then none, I guess.

          • MOD owned actually as are all assets. FAA have different working ethics that are attuned for working at sea. FAA personnel don’t mind being at sea or land, can’t say that is the thing for the light blue jobs. The Services have differing separate service views the RAF’s not really being the thing with the Fleet which means more turn over and cost when ship deployed. All Services should be the same. and not the lesser soft step either. RN is 2 years in 3 years, not 4 months in a life time

    • Hi Rod. Oddly enough, I have ( for several years now) held exactly the same views on the squadron number and composition as you outlined.

      This would retain the RAF to the same level of front line (excluding OCUs) fast jet squadrons post the 2003/4 cuts = 16

      • Get another squadron of the b model taking it back to 4. 2 typhoon squadrons of new aircraft. More to be made up with big drones when they come online

      • Not really mist of the heavy maintenance is done at depots. Starting pilots out on the B would also.means switching to the A is relatively easy. You also gain as a lot if allies operate the A so can forward base. Of course its cheap to buy and maintain the A and has more range and payliad . It needs a proper analysis

        • And the majority of the regular maintenance is performed by ground crew on base or onboard.
          So you pay the extra expense to qualify pilots to fly the F35B, using ski jumps, vertical and rolling landings, and then stick them in the F35A – an aircraft with very different handling characteristics…
          You get no more gain than with those allies flying the F35B. Even then it’s not so straightforward as different air forces use different weapons and have different procedures. Which is why the USMC embarked their own ground crews and equipment, supplies and weapons, when they joined the QE on her first deployment.
          The price difference between A and B is not that significant and what you gain with extra range and payload you lose in not being deployable at sea and requiring runways.
          A proper analysis has been done, which is why the U.K. is only buying the B.

          • The spares thing is overplayed. Pretty much within the fleet your airframes may be at different mod levels so.you have to hold varying spares you use complex MRO software to keep track of the configuration on the airframe.and mod level. The F35 also has advance logistic software reducing the need to carry large inventories.

            Moving between A and B it’s not like going from. Tornado to Typhoon the cockpit is largely common. I very much doubt a full analysis has been done because we barely commit to enough to support the carriers.

          • The spares thing isn’t overplayed, and saying it highlights your lack of knowledge over the programme. In fact a major reason why F35s are not getting the flight availability they should is due to lack of spares, and due to issues with LM’s logistic management software. Indeed it’s so bad, the US military has decided to replace it with its own rather than hope that LM can completely fix it.

            So because the buttons and levers are similar it must be identical to fly? So I guess driving a Mini and an 18 wheeler truck must be the same because they both have steering wheels, gear-sticks and clutches?
            Clueless 🤦🏻‍♂️
            The handling characteristics, performance, climb rates, permitted G forces, etc etc etc are completely different between the 3 versions.

            I very much doubt you psychic abilities at determining whether the MoD had done a analysis because it’s certainly not based on logic. Let me give you a hint – do you think the NAO or Defence Select Committee would have not raised hell if the MoD had continued to place orders for F35Bs given that the A is marginally cheaper without such an analysis? Do you think the MoD would just blindly go on buying the F35B without any analysis? 🤦🏻‍♂️

          • Yes the program has problems and ALIS is being replaced so the problem is recognised and will be replaced which is good once that’s done spares will.not be a problem. Factoring a shoter term issue like the ALIS into the cost of running a fleet for 30 years is no way to do a cost capability analysis .

            However the logistic issue makes running a more complex B more expensive. However the biggest issue is none availability of the engines as the maintenance at the depot is too long. P and W have been working to reduce the turn around times with some success.

            When the B was selected the ALIS issue was not known. So correctly played no part in the selection which was done pure on capability to fit our carriers. There was analysis done between the A and C but that was dubious as we know the cost of converting the carriers was too high and would delay the whole program.

            My point that no analysis has been done is 100% based on logic. Talk of the A is still fantasy fleet. There must be enough Bs to allow 2 carriers to operate at 100% whilst training and maintaining However its not like the MoD have a shining track record of making sensible cost controlling decisions. The NAO continue to criticise the MoD for poor decision making. There’s also massive interservice rivalry the RAF would like some As whilst the FA would.like to secure a full fleet of Bs. This equates to interference in decision making. The bottom line is the A is more capable and cheaper to buy and maintain

            Look the F35 is the most automated fighter ever built the whole concept is to reduce work rate for the pilot so flight controls help considerably in flying tge jets within parameters. The cockpit commonality is something Airbus also leverage to reduce conversion times. Comparing trucks and cars is not valid closer would be tranche 2 and 3 Typhoons. But even on the same airframe same mod level your flight parameters change, example your not going to fly a Typhoon climb turn the same with a long range heavy strike package as you would in light weight QRA role. This is why the integration take so long because the flight control manage the aircraft.

            Japan doesn’t appear to have any issues with As and Bs they’re not changing there order of As to Bs and they have a very similar defence budget to the UK.

          • Actually the USAF itself has been advising P&W how to improve deep engine maintenance and have vastly improved throughout.Tinker AFB have been able to cut engine overhaul time by over half to just over 100 days now.

            Japan has a smaller defence budget, the U.K.‘s is the 3rd largest in the world now. But that doesn’t take into account the cost of the nuclear deterrent, and not does it take into account relative purchasing power. Which is why the Japanese Navy can afford a fleet of 150+ ships and 346 aircraft, compared to the RN’s 80+ ships, and 160 aircraft.
            Comparison of raw spend is meaningless.

            Japan committed to buying A but had supplementally added B orders as it’s decided to add turn its helicopter destroyers into mini-carriers.

    • Just add 3 extra P8, 2 extra Wedgetails and have a big think about a Merlin replacement.
      seems to me that with the issues with the NH90 there is a market for a NG Merlin and we don’t have enough at present. So add 50 New ones please.

      Then reality sets in the U.K. defence Governent mindset.

      Sleep – Sleep perchance to dream

      • I could count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I had no budget. However, there are still rumours about a second tranche of two Wedgetails at some point in the future.

    • Better to have
      6 x F-35B (allows for both QE’s to have 24 on board and to have surge / training ability)
      10x Typhoon FGR4
      plus extra 5 x P8 & 3 x E7

  9. There has been a great deal of misinformation posted here about Thatcher so I’m going to stick to facts.

    Firstly, Thatcher and her successor Major managed to destroy the industral base of the UK so thoroughly that we have never had a balance of payments surplus since – and today the National Debt stands at £2.4 TRILLION

    Secondly, three years after Thatcher came to power, in 1983 we had over three million out of work for the first time since the Great Depression. Unemployment hit hardest in Northern Ireland, where one in five people was out of work in the early 1980s, along with the industrial areas of northern England, Wales and Scotland where unemployment reached 27% in 1985

    In an attempt to balance the books Thatcher started selling off highly profitable state owned industries on the cheap – British Steel, British Shipbuilders, British Telecom, British Rail etc etc etc. She also sold off the nation’s stock of council housing – now owned by Canadian and American pension funds. What industries she couldn’t sell off closed down – HM Dockyards, heavy electrical, papermaking, coal mining equipment, the motor industry, the railway rolling stock industry, the Royal Ordnance Factories etc etc

    Today after 14 years of Conservative government the two biggest industries in the UK are the NHS (employing 1.3 million) and the civil service/QUANGO’s which together employ over 30% of the workforce in totally non-jobs that export nothing. If we do manage to produce a worldclass firm (ARM Holdings, Cadbury, Vauxhall Motors, Land Rover, Jaguar, Rolls Royce Motors etc etc) the government allows it to be sold off to foreigners for hard currency

    Margaret Thatcher and her successor John Major seriously damaged this country and the effects are still being felt today. Sunak, who has printed more money than any other Chancellor in history, is of the same ilk

      • Blair was a clever and successful, but slippery New Labour politician who won three elections – and kept them in power until he resigned from the party leadership after 13 years in favour of Gordon Brown, who laughably lost the 2010 election that put Cameron and Clegg into government and which led to the malign and disastrous 2010 SDSR

        Every so often Bliar tries to act like a statesman and makes pontificating statements aimed at drumming up business for his consultancy Tony Blair Associates. Several countries in the Middle East and elsewhere allege that Blair is a war criminal and have warrants out for his arrest. A number of his critics have called for his trial at the International Criminal Court.

        At a book signing of his memoirs at Eason’s bookstore on O’Connell Street in Dublin on 4th September 2010 500 angry antiwar protesters attempted to disrupt the proceedings and make a citzens arrest for crimes against humanity and genocide, as a result of his role in the 2003 Iraq War. Bliar was pelted with eggs as he left, but managed to escape.

      • The unions have had nothing to do with this government selling off important strategic defence companies such as Cobham and Ultra Electronics,

        Kwarteng has authorised these sales to bring US dollars into the treasury, which slightly offsets the balance of trade deficit. This government has had 14 years to rebuild our manufacturing and industrial base but has manifestly failed to do so, allowing company after company to be sold off so they can maintain the lie that they are the ‘party of economic management’

        The byelection results last night clearly show that the public has seen through Johnsonski’s lying and bullshit and we may now expect a landslide in favour of the opposition parties at the next GE with the Conservatives out of power for a generation.

        • An BAe global defence giant because. BP is a multinational energy company because? BA own how many airlies? So your suggestion is what block foreign take overs which would certainly see a reciprocal response. Thats very inward looking and market limiting for uk companies. Or what nationalise pretty much every nationalised industry has been loss making bar 1 or 2 examples.

          As for unions when has a union ever called for action when a company slashes its RnD budget. RnD is what guarantees new products and a future for employees. Infact its more likely unions have been responsible for cuts to RnD. Unions s in the UK are still to political and prefer to scre short term.pitical points.

    • About the same time we cosied up to the Europeans and harmonised our economy with theirs…why did Europe need more competitors? They didnt. That was the unwritten agreement. We got services and finance, Germany and France kept heavy engineering.
      But, we never got a single market for services….Only goods. That’s a double cross.

      I heard the same story in Poland. The Szczecin ship yards were closed to avoid introducing a cheap competitor to Hamburg on Germany’s door step. Destroyed local workforce.
      Note also how rail was privatised across the EU, much of polish rail is now owned, like ours, by DB.

    • And right now we have the highest levels of employment ever. Thatcher inherited massive unemployment from Labour and out of control unions that made the U.K. the sick man of Europe in terms of productivity.
      The unions destroyed large sections of industrial base, not Thatcher.
      We had a balance of payments in the late 90’s and early 2000’s but Blair went on mad spending spree instead of saving for less troubled times.
      Yes we have a high national debt now, have you been asleep for the last 2?years? We had something called a pandemic that racked up most nations national debts.
      Those nationalised industries you mention were generally not profitable. Those that were only profitable because they were monopolies. Telecoms and rail travel are far superior today as a result of privatisation.
      I see you hate foreigners in addition to hating Tories. Fact is most countries envy the huge amount of money invested into the U.K. by foreign companies.

      Like most socialists you ignore facts and prefer to rant instead. Thank God your Labour Party under Corbyn didn’t win the last election. Had Corbyn won we’d still be in the pandemic – his breaking of lockdown rules was worse than the whole of Whitehall’s – and right now he’d probably be shipping weapons to Russia rather than the Ukraine.

      • Like most Tories you seem to like to avoid referring to the fact that the Tories have been in power for over 12 years and have done nothing to improve productivity, or much else. In fact they have only succeeded in making democracy and politics in this country the laughing stock of the world. We are heading back to the issues of the 70’s & 80’s thanks to them and you can’t blame any other political party for that it is all on them.

        The Tories have virtually renationalised the railways in all but name, I wonder why??? Maybe the privatisation was a disaster and we are in the ludicrous situation where we have foreign nationalised rail companies taking a fortune from our privatised, franchised railways and ploughing the profits into their own.

        Also Brexit never gets a mention anymore by the Tories, wonder why? You’d think they would be crowing about all the improvements it has made to peoples lives as opposed to the reality of making thing more difficult and expensive for companies and the population in general.

        Amazingly there are still people like you around that blame everything that is wrong on others apart from looking closer to home and still vote Tory.

        • Typical socialist, black and white view of the world, if you don’t support us you’re the hated enemy. Which is why you keep losing elections, because you insult people when they don’t vote for you rather than ask why are you so unattractive to voters.
          (And I have over my life voted for ALL mainstream political parties based on the best manifesto proposals at the time. Whereas you sound like one of those dogmatic ideologues that will “vote for my party, right it wrongly”.)

          It’s ridiculous saying the Tories have been in 12 years, there’s been 3 different prime ministers, all with different priorities and policies. That’s like taking about Labour and lumping Blair, Brown, and Wilson together as an amalgam.

          The railways were effectively renationalised because of the pandemic, but don’t let facts spoil your narrative. I just hope to god we don’t go back to the bad old days of British Rail, which offered terrible service and closed more lines than it opened – in opposite contrast to the last few years.

          As for Brexit, loving it thank you very much. We got out just in time, we’re not going to have to contribute further bailouts to the PIGS due to their economies being hit harder by the pandemic, not to mention the huge bill the EU faces rebuilding Ukraine once it joins. Not to mention getting a vaccine long before the lumbering EU, that was more concerned with haggling a price on a vaccine already being supplied at cost 😆

          Please do rant some more you loser, I find it hilarious to see you metaphorically jump up and down in a tantrum because voters don’t vote for you and you keep losing.

          • Oh and you do racial stereotyping too!
            That doesn’t surprise me coming from a socialist. Glad to see you feel comfortable about coming out.

            ps: ok so not elections but you do keep losing referendums 😆

          • Bravo. One rule for the left and one for the rest that don’t fit their agenda.

      • Is the highest level of employment based on the number of people employed or as a percentage of the UK population?

    • So UK is the 9th largest manufacturer in the world. Infact per person we manufacture as much as China the number one it the world and per person more than France. Let’s be blunt here UK manufacturing died because even British people didn’t want British products. In 1977 the British public had the choice of a Golf or what an Allegro. British factories couldn’t implement quality techniques that Japan took learnt the US. That has nothing to do with politics.

      • This is the problem. Everyone blaming each other for stuff they personally have no control over. Both parties do good and bad.
        As one treasury politician once said during a crisis: we
        Didn’t know what to do. The civil service around us were fantastic. That day a lot of us realised we dont know what we are doing in the departments.
        We all got into politics due to a love of the politics. Hardly any of us know how to run a massive department and just cause problems.

  11. We live in a new world where russian air force has failed to get air supremacy over Ukraine, which is using massively outdated jets. I would say the trance1 are fine for air defence. Meaning f35 stealth is not needed

    If you look at the realistic wars we will fight, then bomb trucks are more important than survivability or stealth and the typhoon can carry more than even the f35a, so we should look to buy more to avoid overusage of the few we have left.

    • I’m sure our air crews won’t be pleased to hear you’re happy to sacrifice their lives because you don’t rate survivability or stealth…. I’m surprised you’re not advocating the reintroduction of the Lancaster to front-line service.

      • Defence is about compromises, even the US couldn’t afford to have a full f22 fleet. If we put our aircrews against a peer enemy, we have the f35b for that, but how realistic is that now that Russia is effectively gone as a convential military threat.

        • I’m sure your words will be comforting to the air-crews widows and orphans…

          Russia is far from gone as a conventional military threat and then there’s China. Five years from now who knows where the threat will come from. Plenty of Putin wannabes in the world.

        • Plus what do you think the ground forces would prefer, surely they would prefer a typhoon that carries more firepower and longer time on station, for close air support.

          • The ground forces will prefer an aircraft in the air that can support them, rather than one that’s burning wreckage on the ground. The F35s stealth gives it protection the Typhoon can never have.

          • But what are they going to get shot down by? Any realsitic country we are going to war with will have soviet or russian weapons and their Sam systems have turned out to be absolute garbage in the Ukraine war.

            I mean consider the strikes on snake island. Its an island and so the absolute best case scenario for defending, as no hills etc that approaching missiles can hide behind and it’s loaded with SAM sites and radars, and yet it keeps getting hit.

          • You do realise that a lot of the shoot-downs by the Ukrainians have been with Soviet era weaponry? 🤷🏻‍♂️
            The big difference between them and the Russians using similar systems is the Ukrainians have properly maintained these systems and their users are both well trained and highly motivated.
            If the likes of the S400 was “absolute garbage” the USA wouldn’t have thrown Turkey out of the F35 programme over buying it. 🤦🏻‍♂️

          • The only reason the Russian planes have been shot down is because they have had to fly low thanks to lack fo smart bombs. We saw the same thing in Syria.

            The USA threw Turkey out of the program because they brought Russian and not US, had nothing to do with capability. In fact it demonstrates they weren’t concerned by the capabiltiy, as if it they felt it was good, the US and NATO would have loved to have one in NATO to practice against.

          • Rubbish. The Ukrainians themselves have boasted about the high-flying Russian aircraft taken-out by S300 systems. That’s why when they fire their air-launched cruise missiles their aircraft now stay out over the Black Sea or Russian controlled territory.
            Ukranian S300’s take out high-flying aircraft, Stingers and Starstreak take-out low-flying aircraft. Together it’s easy to see why the Russian Air Force has suffered such losses and has failed to gain air superiority.

            Completely and utterly wrong. The Americans as a last minute attempt to stop the S400 purchase offered to give the Turks a Patriot system for free. The USA and NATO were concerned that at least in the early days there would be Russians operating the S400s in a training capacity. With Turkey operating F35s as well, there would be a strong chance that this would give the S400s an opportunity to get detailed signatures of the F35 in-flight, which would undermine the F35s capabilities. The F35 is stealthy, it’s not invisible.

            Clearly you don’t let annoying things such as facts stop your ranting. 🤦🏻‍♂️😂

          • Seriously think it through. Why would the US not want a NATO country and a major ally in the region to have the best air defense going? Its got zip to do with capability it’s fully down to polictics and the US being annoyed they were not buying American. They did the same with other countries, when they looked at other country kit, they threatened to pull stuff to stop it.

          • OMG the conspiracy theories are strong in this one!!! 🤣😂🤣😂

            Like I said, completely ignoring the inconvenient facts of the case.

            Turkey was thrown out if the F35 to protect the capabilities of the F35. The USA took a financial hit not being able to sell the F35, to Turkey, but it did so on security grounds.

            You probably think the USA has crashed alien UFOs at Area 51 too, or that the earth is flat…

          • How does a NATO member having a platform vaguely impact the secruity of the F35?

            the only vaguely possible way is that the tracking info could be sent back to Russia, but equally Russia/China has radars on their border and will be tracking NATO/allied aircraft exercising near them, which will include the F35, so will have all the data it could get from Turkey. Plus they have the data from Syria.

            If your saying the US didn’t trust Turkey to leak the info to Russia, then that’s a wider issue and doesn’t explain why they would suddenly trust Turket if they decided to cancel the order, as they stated they would supply if Turkey cancelled their russian order and instead brought patriot.

            Its not conspiracy, it’s looking at the facts as knows, and not blindly believing the official statements, especially when they make no logical sense

          • Add to that, US is happily selling f35 to a number of eastern European NATO members that have soviet era kit.

          • Yes it’s conspiracy, your reasoning is the same as all the lunatic anti-vaxxers. So although I’ve explained the facts to you, you still won’t believe them, and instead continue to spout your conspiracy theory which as no basis in fact but clearly stems from your anti-Americanism.

            The East European nations that are buying the F35 don’t operate the S-400 which is the system NATO is concerned about. Dimwit.

            I’ve wasted enough time with you.

          • Like I said facts not vague statements. For years national secuirty was a reasoning for imprisoning blacks in the US or restricting voters in trump era to try and win elections, it can’t be believed on face value, it has to be backed up with facts.

            From my side, if your scared of a enemy asset, you want to have a version of it to study and learn how to beat, just like the US stole so may soviet planes, Sam, even a sub etc during the cold war. Having one inside NATO gives every NATO nation that ability.

            Name one reason why the reverse would be true.

        • Understand where your coming from. Wars are death whatever, and increasingly civilian. Wars without death would be nice; or just lead to perennial war perhaps. Typhoon is increasingly showing its worth – and potential in the short timespan that maybe upon us.
          Time was that the US would just build what it wanted, and still does when compared with allies. However, there is increasing talk of funding compromises within their military due to costs, reminiscent of the path we’ve been on for years. And still Europe, inc UK, regard them as our saviour, to the extent we’ve been slow to take comensurate responsibility for our own security. America will have both Russia and China to contend with now, economically and/or with regard to basic resources. Both essential prerequisites during conflict, of course.
          There are the murmurings of this realisation at last with Germany, which has the economic foundation yet has bound its hands to a significant degree on the second count.
          Eutropewide on the specific NATO front, access to fuel is likely the greatest long term risk, to boot.

          • If anything the Ukraine War has shown what happens when you don’t have enough and run out of anti-radiation missiles. Close air support is next to impossible when you are faced with medium ranged SAMs backed up with SHORAD and MANPADS. Russia have finally got their act together with regards to air defence over the Donbass region! They have truly multi-layered their defences. Ukraine have admitted to loosing a shed load of TB2s over this region. Recent interviews with Ukrainian pilots have said its next to impossible to attack targets in the Donbass now. They don’t have any anti-radiation missiles left.

            To make matters worse, their Mig-29s/Su-25s and 27s can only use Soviet/Russian weapons, so we can’t rearm them with something like HARM. Ukrainian pilots have been clamouring for Western aircraft, mostly due to the access to better weapons, such as HARM. Unless they get these then close air support for the Donbass, even using UAVs is next to impossible.

          • Yes, F16s. But they need an available supply right now, that’s the rub, naturally.
            Similarly, I wonder how many a/t weapons we’ve exhausted, should Vlad be crazy enough to attempt to break for Kaliningrad. Cannot see that, due to exposed flanks, but the sheets not called Mad for nothing.
            Either way, we owe Ukraine and incredible debt on how peer warfare will look. Unpayable if it’s measured in blood.

          • The question of giving Ukraine our war stocks and how quickly can they be restocked, has been raised in Parliament. The answer was not immediately forthcoming and will be given as a written statement. Which means they don’t know. I know Thales are recruiting like mad for people to work at their Belfast plant that makes the NLAW, Starstreak and Martlet. Similarly both BAe and MBDA are heavily recruiting. IN the US they have said it may take up to 2 years to replenish the stocks of Javelin, they have given Ukraine. The problem for the UK is that we have significantly run down our war stocks. Though this has improved since the Libyan debacle, where we ran out of 500 and 1000 pounders, that could be converted to PGMs and had to get restocked from the US.

            The US has a shed load of mothballed F16s and F18s. These are all the early versions, Such as F16 A and Bs along with some C and Ds, with F18 A, B, C and Ds. As they are stored in the desert, they will only need hydraulic lines, fuel pipes along with other rubber based components to be replaced, before they can fly again. If a B52 that was in the boneyard for 50 years can be reactivated and flown out after two weeks work. A F16 that been in the yard for near 20 years shouldn’t be a problem.

            The question though, is what weapons are still available that these older aircraft can use? Mavericks for certain, but also HARM. They will still be able to use Sidewinder, though not the latest X version and similarly AMRAAM (though probably not the latest D version). But only so long as the F16s had their mid life upgrade to Block C/D standard. Its the same with the F18s, where only the C and D version could use the newer weapons like AMRAAM. Which means the very early unmodified aircraft won’t be of much use.

            France has just retired its Mirage 2000C-5Fs. These are still very good aircraft. That can carry Mica or Magic air to air missiles, along with precision guide bombs using a targeting pod, along with the Scalp cruise missile. No Brimstone or Mavericks sadly. Macron will never sanction giving these aircraft to Ukraine however.

            Perhaps the better alternative is the Gripen. Particularly the C and D variant. These are fully compatible with NATO weapons, in particular Asraam, Sidewinder, Darter, Iris-T, AMRAAM, MICA and Meteor for air to air duties. Plus it can use precision guided bombs when using a targeting pod, but also Maverick and Taurus (which is similar to Storm Shadow), plus it can carry the RBS-15 anti-ship missile. One of its other great features that would be especially good for Ukraine, is that it has STOL and rough road capability, allowing it to operate from dispersed sites. It require only a small team for maintenance and rearmament.

          • Thanks for the comprehensive reply. Ukraine is in the unigue position of having more qualified fighter pilots than fighters at present we are informed. Them give them fighters and stop playing by Russia’s rule book on what will make them mad (der).

  14. Can we got 24-36 more of latest multi role batch to replace our tranche 1s. There is a war on just a few hundred miles away where this evil dictator is invading a democratic sovereign country. You would think despite the utter mess in the economy that some orders for additional kit and more personnel would have been forthcoming.

  15. I’ll miss seeing the f18s in Gran Canaria. Always worth a good skeg while landing and being ferried to the hotel. Feels like a dull posting. Where’s the threat coming from? West Africa?

      • I think you will find Morroco has more on its plate with Algeria at the moment (talking war drums here) than it has with Spain.

        Relations between the two plummeted after Morocco normalized its relations with Israel in exchange for U.S. recognition of the kingdom’s sovereignty over the Western Sahara territory, and since that time, then in March Algeria was further offended after Spain expressed its support for Morocco’s autonomy plan for the Western Sahara. That Western Sahara which has been a bone of contention with Morocco for years and which Algeria supports, things took a turn for the worse last Nov when three Algerian truck drivers on their way from Mauritania were killed in a bombing in the Western Sahara. This incident, which was attributed to Morocco by Algeria and which Morocco has not officially responded to, raised fears of a direct military conflict for the first time in decades saw military forces pool on the borders and with Algeria closing off its Airspace to Moroccan aircraft. The slow but steady deterioration in relations between the two countries is why Morocco pulled its F16s supporting Saudi Arabia in Yemen in 2018.

        • Algeria spends 3 times what Morocco does on its military, but it mostly buys from Russia. Morocco mostly buys from the US.

          Both countries are increasing spending, especially on the air domain. Rumours have the Algerians going Su-57 and Moroccans asking the US for F-35s. Rumour further has Algeria with S-400 while Morocco goes Israeli, with Iron Dome, Barak intermediate and possibly Arrow anti-ballistics.

          That’s some scary level buying. Not that long ago Morocco was reportedly considering more Mirages!

      • Yeah never thought of North Africa though I’d imagine little in the way of incursions like the Russians do. Not at the moment anyway. I always saw the f18s leave west and return from the west but i appreciate that means nothing

    • According to last months Airforces Monthly The F18s based in Gran Canaria are the 24 second F18A+ purchased from the US between 2001 to 2008 due to the fact that they run on the the US supplied software as opposed to the Spanish designed software Operational Flight program (OFP)-08E which runs on the 72 F18s Spain purchased between 1986 and 1992. This has resulted in the two different purchases operating different weapons (with the later purchase centered on US weapons which is why the GC ones can carry the Harpoon, HARM and Maverick missiles. One thing I couldnt get my head around was the part where the article states that due to the harsh climate conditions on GC, the aircraft based there suffer from maintence issues The article also states that it is these 24 F18 which will be replaced by the 20 new Typhoons.

      • Makes a lot of sense re being equipped with harpoon etc. Southern tip of nato, if the chinese did decide to sail up the Atlantic etc. Perhaps they mean the fine volcanic dust intermixed with the calima from the sahara?

        Thanks btw 👍

    • If we were to get more Typhoons it should certainly be this version. Electronic attack is something we are desperately short on.

      • The Mk2 radars have that, and the prototype should be delivered by the end of this year. Whether the RAF can bring forward IOC from 2030 is unknown.

  17. To move away from the fascinating chat about which political party is the worst, does anyone know who still has “options” for more Eurofighters? I seem to remember that Saudi and some other gulf state did. It would be nice to keep production going until 2030 ish.

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