Spain will expand its combat aircraft fleet with 20 new Eurofighter Typhoons.

The announcement made at the ILA Berlin International Air Show today will see the number of Typhoons in Europe increase to 545 aircraft, delivered or on order say BAE Systems.

“The order will see the Eurofighter consortium deliver aircraft for the Spanish Air Force equipped with an advanced new electronically-scanning radar, ensuring it is ready to be part of the future battlespace into the 2060s and beyond.

BAE Systems leads the overall design, development, manufacture, upgrade and support for Typhoon aircraft in the UK. BAE Systems is responsible for manufacturing more than a third of components for every Spanish aircraft, including the aircraft’s front fuselage and tail, under a contract worth in excess of £500m.”

Andrea Thompson, Managing Director – Europe & International for BAE Systems’ Air sector, and Chair of the Eurofighter Supervisory Board, said in a news release:

“The Spanish Government’s commitment to purchasing additional Typhoons reinforces its position as one of the world’s most successful combat military aircraft. Every day we are seeing the important role which it plays in delivering air security in the skies over Europe and this investment only strengthens the international partnership which Eurofighter underpins.

The fact that an existing Typhoon operator is committing to buying additional aircraft only reinforces their confidence in the aircraft and its performance. Our people will now work alongside our Eurofighter partners to ensure we provide the Spanish Air Force with the aircraft it needs to secure its skies for decades to come.”

The announcement by Spain follows an order for 38 new Typhoons for Germany in November 2020. The firm say in the aforementioned news release that work is now underway on production of components for these aircraft at BAE Systems’ facilities in Samlesbury and Warton, Lancashire, with engineering teams supporting work on advanced new radar and sensors.

“More than 5,000 BAE Systems employees directly support the Typhoon programme in the UK, supporting more than 10,000 jobs in the UK economy as a whole. The order from Spain maintains continuity of Typhoon production in the UK beyond the middle of the decade.”

Final assembly of the aircraft for Spain will be undertaken by Airbus in Getafe, Spain, with deliveries scheduled to commence from 2025. The Typhoon aircraft will replace Spain’s ageing F-18 Hornet aircraft based at Gando Air Base in the Canary Islands.

For more on Typhoon, visit the BAE website here https://www.baesystems.com/en/product/typhoon

George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. He also works for the NHS. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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Paul42
Paul42
10 days ago

Now the UK needs to order another batch to replace the Tranch 1s

David
David
10 days ago
Reply to  Paul42

It would be better to get more F35B ( when block 4 is ready) , probably cheaper and would allow a few extra carrier capable squadrons. I doubt there is money for either though.

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
10 days ago
Reply to  David

If there is a truly capable block 4. All the news out of the UI.S. in recent months is suggesting that the whole programme is well adrift and could have initial dates of 2030/2035. For me, keep the F35b’s coming ( 60 ‘ish) for the carriers, and put in an order for another batch of forty Typhoons. Then wait for the Tempest but where practical accelerate the programme.

John N
John N
10 days ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

Actually there are Block 4 software drops already delivered.

Block 4 isn’t just one big upgrade all in one go, it’s made up of many many software drops, up to and including 2029 at this stage (plus of course the Tech Refresh 3 hardware).

Check out “Figure 11: Revised Delivery Plan for Block 4 and Post-Block 4 Capabilities”

https://www.gao.gov/assets/730/720191.pdf

Yes it won’t be completed until 2029, but it has started.

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
10 days ago
Reply to  John N

Appreciate that John but I’m not saying this. The U.S. is. “costly over runs and capability shortages” could lead to serious delays. As thing stand at this moment operational clearances will be delayed until 2029, not 2026 as expected.

John N
John N
10 days ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

Geoff,

Yes fully aware of the three year slippage for Block 4 to be completed, eg, 2029 instead of 2026.

I was disputing your ‘2030/2035’ dates that you wrote.

Where do those dates come from?

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
10 days ago
Reply to  John N

O.K. 2029 not 2030. The remaining years are for order fulfilment assuming we are not going to order ahead of knowing whether block4 is acceptable.

Jon
Jon
10 days ago
Reply to  John N

They should never have used Agile, and the changes they are making (as stated in that document) to allow the Program Office to reprioritize without a change of contract will make things worse not better. To illustrate how divorced this project is from typical Agile projects, it has annual drops. A typical Agile project would have a drop somewhere between weekly and monthly. With a fortnightly drop I’d expect to get feedback if something isn’t right and sort it within the following fortnight (or sooner), and an emergency rollback will delay a maximum of two weeks work. When a plane… Read more »

Craig
Craig
9 days ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

F35As to replace Typhoon tranche 1s would be better value and capability

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
9 days ago
Reply to  Craig

There Craig is a very interesting argument, one that might suit the RAF a whole lot better.

Laurence
Laurence
10 days ago
Reply to  Paul42

Keep the tranche 1s as pure air defence fighters and order another batch of 20 tranche 3s The RAF need mass

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
10 days ago
Reply to  Laurence

What do you want T3 and maybe T2 upgraded to T4 specs with UK CAPTOR radar?

Or

A larger fleet of increasingly useless planes?

RAF don’t want T1 as they have totally different logistics and training requirements.

Although I agree a purchase of new 24 new T4 would be ideal with the T2 & T3 upgraded.

Rudeboy
Rudeboy
10 days ago

Personally I’d ditch the whole of Europe’s Tranche 1’s into Ukraine over the next few years to replace their SU-27.

If we had the cash T2’s get Radar 2….and an additional buy of 20 Typhoon EK (previously called ECR). The EK will give the RAF (and NATO) substantial new capability, plus they retain their full fighter capability. They would also be useful into the future in supporting F-35 and Tempest.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
10 days ago
Reply to  Rudeboy

So would I, bar one problem: running costs.

I don’t think Ukraine could afford to run Typhoon.

T1 has a lot of 1980s electronics in it, left over from the BAE2000 project and there comes a point where those bits are less and less fixable as discreet components become NLA.

Deep32
Deep32
10 days ago

Just read a post by @GM over on twitter, that offers a different perspective. Tempest is due in service 2035, all our T2/3 Typhoons (107) have an OSD of 2040. So, 5 years to replace 107 aircraft, interesting times……..

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
10 days ago
Reply to  Deep32

All T2/T3 can’t have the same OSD as they had staggered ISD?

I agree **if** that is true then we had better by some T4 pronto.

Trouble is Doris seems to be in the grip of Rishi who doesn’t seem to get the memo that the peace dividend needs to be reversed. Mad Vlad couldn’t have sent a clearer memo TBH – well apart from how useless the Russian Army/Navy/AirForce are. The bit of the memo that everyone has missed is that we need huge numbers of mid tech weapons to finish something fast.

Last edited 10 days ago by Supportive Bloke
Deep32
Deep32
10 days ago

Know what you mean about different ISD/OSDs, but believe and might be wrong here, original OSD was 2035,ish which has since been pushed back to 2040. If this is the case, not sure how much more flex is left, as demise of T1 aircraft heeps more flt hrs on the rest of the flt. Now with the extra commitments due to Mad Vlad, the flt is being worked harder then normal. I think Tempest ISD is overly optimistic, and do wonder if we need some form of interim buy to mitigate any future possible delays. Yes, agree we need all… Read more »

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
10 days ago

Doris? 😂 Love that!

Martin
Martin
10 days ago
Reply to  Deep32

It’s pretty standard to just keep moving the OSD to the right, in the end the airframes can probably fly for much longer than the initial design life.

Deep32
Deep32
10 days ago
Reply to  Martin

They have already done that I believe, see above!

izzy
izzy
10 days ago
Reply to  Deep32

If only they were B-52s that would last until the 2080s…

John Clark
John Clark
10 days ago
Reply to  Paul42

In an ideal world Paul, the RAF would replace the Tranche 1 machines with Tranche 4 (24) and upgrade all the Tranche 2 and 3 to the same advanced standard, to give a small but absolutely world beating fighter force. Such a force would be capable of taking on anything out there for years to come. The UK advanced Radar (10 years ahead of the F35’s), plus upgraded Meteor and ASRAAM, plus Spear3 etc, would give the RAF a massively capable aircraft for a very broad range of missions from A to A, A to G, electronic attack, active and… Read more »

David
David
10 days ago
Reply to  John Clark

How do you actually know radar 2 is 10 years ahead of the F35 radar?
That’s pure speculation , it hasn’t appeared yet.
As for Meteor, yes it’s good, ut by the same measure US Amraam replacement will be far more modern, marching the range of meteor and the Chinese offerings.
If there was money, I think either more F35B or even A would be the better option.

Farouk
Farouk
10 days ago
Reply to  David

David wrote:

As for Meteor, yes it’s good, ut by the same measure US Amraam replacement will be far more modern, marching the range of meteor and the Chinese offerings.

Read this very interesting article on the very subject the other week:
comment image

Last edited 10 days ago by Farouk
Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
10 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

Interesting.

Maybe the new missile has

Lighter avionics; and
More subtle fin interventions reducing drag; and
Lighter warhead for same effect; and
Better fuel burn by using RE intercooler; and
Marginally larger fuel load with the saved weight margin?

Could add up to the same thing?

Maybe?

Or could be a larger lump!

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
10 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

Not long to wait to establish more about this if rollout imminent, then. Ought to reduce some of the vagueness on the 260 parameters here. At present, does not seem too much of an advance over Meteor, which is quoted as 200km range and over Mach 4 (ok, on Wiki !). But effective range is depended on platform launch speed and detection capability, height of release and missile manoeuvring demands, just off top of head. Like the throttled loitering on Meteor, too. Absolutely, the AIM-260 wll be exellent, not least because it’s new, but happy for the relatively short wait… Read more »

izzy
izzy
10 days ago
Reply to  Gavin Gordon

I guess if they’re cutting numbers by 17% they only need for the missile to improve aircraft combat effectiveness by 17% to compensate…

John Clark
John Clark
10 days ago
Reply to  David

Well David, because it’s still being tinkered with, F35 design was frozen many years ago and technology has seriously moved on.

More advanced design transmit and be receive modules, on a much larger and movable dish, will mean significantly improved range, wide area scan and resolution.

By natural extension of these features, excellent targeted electronic attack capability.

It’s going to be a game changer….

Last edited 10 days ago by John Clark
Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
10 days ago
Reply to  John Clark

I agree.

The F35 radars are essentially early 2000’s tech. Very, very good but the software behind it is more significant than the sensors.

Radar2 is, I think, structurally finished but the software/firmware is still evolving. Based on public utterances. By all accounts it is at a different level to anything else.

So there way be more than a decade of evolution…….

Farouk
Farouk
10 days ago
Reply to  David

David wrote: “”How do you actually know radar 2 is 10 years ahead of the F35 radar?”” Moore’s law, which is why the best fighter jet in the world “The F22” operates on 1990s silicon chips which are less powerful than the chip found inside IPhones. I am led to believe that the F35 runs on   four PowerPC G4 processors jointly developed by Apple, Motorola, and IBM, they stopped making them in 2005. That said they are stable chips able to take all the knocks that military equipment will suffer. So to Radar 2, as its development didnt start until 2010,… Read more »

Sean the real Sean
Sean the real Sean
10 days ago
Reply to  John Clark

Remember reading about the EuroNeverfighter when it was meant to be coming into service , had all these prophecies of advantage such as helmet mounted sight and better radar than the APG-65 . What it eventuated as was a fighter that was so far behind the FA18E/F that an USN/Australian pilot had a far deadlier effective working platform than that ludicrous defective jet as per a German description of the Eurofighter . Compared to the F-35 the Eurotrash is a hunk of junk . Dont agree with me go ask some one in the RAF .

Farouk
Farouk
10 days ago
Reply to  Paul42

Not going to happen, look at all the strikes. we have a PM who is painted (and gives the impression) that he doesn’t care The left have copied how they demonised Maggie Thatcher with falsehoods: Milk snatcher (Where records show she was told to cut all Milk but fought for the right of junior children to still receive it) Shut down the Mines (Where we find that Labour under Wilson shut down more in a shorter time span) Waged war to get re-elected (and records show she was ready to hand over the Islands until the last minute) So a… Read more »

Last edited 10 days ago by Farouk
russ
russ
10 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

Indeed Thatcher was a saint. She didn’t shut down my local mining industry and she definitely wasn’t responsible for all the knock on effects to my local businesses or my father losing his job. Also, I wish I could forsee the future as well as you. I have been reading this column for a long time and I have learned a lot from its contributors including yourself. I do however seem to be in the minority politics wise. Please understand that this Labour party supporter is strongly in favour of a robust defence and expeditonary ability. You do no good… Read more »

Chris.
Chris.
10 days ago
Reply to  russ

Thatcher may have shut some mines! but no ware near as many as the previous labour government’s. Manufacturing at that time was a joke. expensive and poor quality.Now done cheaper and better overseas. What we have now is very high value low volume specialists manufacturing with the skills to match. I know which I prefer.

russ
russ
10 days ago
Reply to  Chris.

According to gov.uk quoted on another site “43 per cent of mining jobs went in the 1960s under Wilson while 80 per cent were lost under Thatcher. Also, as the trend rate of economic growth was lower under Thatcher than Wilson (just 2.8 per cent compared to 3.4 per cent) and unemployment was considerably higher throughout the 1980s than the 1960s” But even that isn’t the point. I was trying to make the point that if you are personally affected by something-in this case pit closures and lack of jobs locally, it is insulting when someone makes light of it.… Read more »

Farouk
Farouk
10 days ago
Reply to  russ

Russ wrote: “43 per cent of mining jobs went in the 1960s under Wilson while 80 per cent were lost under Thatcher. Seeing as i started this ball rolling please allow me to point out what I actually wrote in which to get back on track: “”Where we find that Labour under Wilson shut down more in a shorter time span”” My point been, Harold Wilson (Labour) closed 253 pits as against Margaret Thatcher (Conservative) 115 and in a shorter time frame. I am ending this subject from my end simply in which to : 1) Not p off people 2) Not digress… Read more »

Last edited 10 days ago by Farouk
David Steeper
David Steeper
10 days ago
Reply to  russ

UK GDP growth 1965-69 2.76% p.a.
UK GDP growth 1974-76 -0.367% p.a.
UK GDP growth 1979-90 2.59% p.a.
source world bank
You are right about unemployment.

Martin
Martin
10 days ago
Reply to  russ

The 80’s were an economic disaster for any part of the UK outside of London and the south east but since they are the only bits that matter Margaret Thacther is clearly a saint 😀

John Clark
John Clark
10 days ago
Reply to  Martin

This is a thorny one … I think you have to step back and take a wider look. The 80’s were hard, many of us lived through the difficult changes. I left school in the teeth of it in 1982, very little work and myself and most of my friends on YTS schemes. Do I blame Mrs Thatcher …. No, it’s far to easy to blame her. Root and branch reform was needed across the whole country, it had been badly needing since the 1950’s, but no previous sitting government had managed it. Previous Labour governments to be fair, attempted… Read more »

Martin
Martin
10 days ago
Reply to  John Clark

The issue is the UK has ended up with the greatest regional disparity in Europe outside of Italy. Unless you think the people of north England are unlikely thick in all of Europe (which I don’t) then the model derived in the 80’s under thatcher is still broken.

Stu
Stu
10 days ago
Reply to  Martin

As a Northerner, I can say with some confidence, there are a good number of thick people here. But then I’ve worked in London long enough to know there are a good number of thick people there too 😄 Jokes aside, you’re not wrong. Neither was John. Reforms were needed but they were not perfect. As with many things on such a scale the number of influencing factors is huge & there is no one fix. You were right that the current model appears broken. There’s a lot of Tory v Labour being debated on this thread but I think… Read more »

John Clark
John Clark
10 days ago
Reply to  Martin

Hi Martin, the issue was the trickle down of finance from the new economic model was stymied by an international recession and that hit the former industrial areas the hardest.

I went through it myself and as hard as it was, it still needed doing though.

Mrs Thatcher had the brass bollox to push through unpopular reform

Labour at the time had no plan but to carry on aimlessly kicking the ball down the road…

No one today has the authority to grab the reigns of power and press on…..

geoff
geoff
10 days ago
Reply to  John Clark

Well said. Someone who told voters the truth and the reality of where Britain stood-not what they wanted to hear and what lies they had been told to garner votes.
Blood Toil Tears and Sweat…but look where it got Winnie in the 1945 election.
tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies….

Last edited 10 days ago by geoff
Stu
Stu
10 days ago
Reply to  John Clark

Well said sir.

Zimon
Zimon
9 days ago
Reply to  Martin

The destruction of what had been some the worlds most productive cities and industries was well under way before Thatcher became PM and was decades in the making. Don’t blame the person who picked up the pieces for breaking the pot.

geoff
geoff
10 days ago
Reply to  russ

Hi Russ. Just a point-43% and 80% don’t add up to 100%. So Thatcher was responsible for 80% of a much smaller number. Also whether or not the 70’s equipment projects were “glory days’, the fact remains that much of the British Aircraft industry was destroyed by the cuts initiated by Wilson in the 1960’s. the truth as always, lies somewhere in between. I do agree with you however that many Labour supporters and MP’s have supported strong defence moves including the new carriers. i don’t subscribe entirely to the view that they were Gordon Brown’s bribe to his constituency.… Read more »

russ
russ
9 days ago
Reply to  geoff

My bad! I didn’t expect it to go so far….

Farouk
Farouk
10 days ago
Reply to  russ

Russ, The point I was making was how so many Marxist union reps are going out of their way to not only close down the Uk, but to remove the elected Government from outside the ballot box with an aim to replacing it with one more friendly to their political bent which I feel they will try to achieve by hoodwinking the masses by playing the EU card. As for Maggie, I used the example of how the left of the political centre throw mud in the hope some sticks in which to brainwash the masses to their way of… Read more »

Last edited 10 days ago by Farouk
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
10 days ago
Reply to  russ

Good to hear it Russ. However, for all the traditional Labour voters like your good self I think Farouk was talking of the likes of the Labour Party membership, Young Labour, and the Parliamentary Labour Party ( who I fear have not changed their spots one bit ) after the previous regime.

And they will have their ideology regardless of many Labour voters like yourself.

So hopefully when Labour get in you will vote them out again, although by then it will be too late won’t it with that sad list. If it comes to pass…

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
10 days ago
Reply to  russ

I don’t tar people who are centre left but for god’s sake can’t the Labour party get its act together and ditch the extreme looney left. The UK (before the 1920s) broadly had conservative and Liberal parties that were broadly socially conservative (both of them). The difference was in the economic policies broadly. Now we have a choice of a slightly left of centre Tory party or an extreme left wing Labour party full to the brim of Corbynista’s. What has happened to the Labour party since the 1940s? I just don’t get why they are on a one band… Read more »

russ
russ
10 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

If I knew that mate…..!
Some of my current party wouldn’t have lasted 5 minutes in the past in the local Labour club before they, ahem “had their clocks cleaned”
But I guess all parties have their loony wings the mistake is to think they are a majority.

Martin
Martin
10 days ago
Reply to  russ

I seem to remember the Tory’s being run by a comedian from have i got news for you and several tax dodgers, drugs addicts and felons while the leader of the Labour Party is the former head of the crown prosecution service. Labour may have a looney left but atleast they are kept in tow most the time. The Tory’s let theirs run wild, Michael Gove regularly showing up on TV wasted in drugs and I don’t even know what anyone could say about Moggs. Meanwhile the PM’s wife runs the cabinet via WhatsApp. Who’s the loneys?

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
10 days ago
Reply to  Martin

Fair point but as I said the Tory are centre left now and not socially conservative. I really despair as I can’t vote for anyone currently. I would add that Keir Starmer had some very dodgy decisions when he was in the crown prosecution service…he may say that Jimmy Saville wasn’t in his scope but it was….also Keir’s party really does want to undo Brexit and for me that is a big no. Finally both parties are deliberately increasing immigration to the UK in the face of all evidence that it puts massive strain on infrastructure and increases house prices.… Read more »

Martin
Martin
10 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

I think your very much alone in the country on your views for people from Hong Kong. They are as British as you or I an entitled to be here and that is not up for some referendum. They have been issued with a British passport for many years.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
10 days ago
Reply to  Martin

Really Martin I’m alone…look at the comments and you’ll see people agree with me. You are factually incorrect on British passports for Hong Kong Chinese as they were only offered on February 18th 2021. They were an overseas colony which was leased until 1997 from the Chinese government. They are Chinese nationals that lived in a leased colony.

Last edited 10 days ago by Andrew Thorne
Martin
Martin
9 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Hi Andrew, you should not take support from a small group of little Englanders as a national poll. In Yougov polling (which is a national poll) the measure has 64% approval with 22% against and 14% undecided. Those are pretty amazing numbers of support for any issue in the UK. Also you are clearly mistaken about the legal status of either Hong Kong or its people. Firstly the territory was not leased its was owned in perpetuity only the New Territories and and parts of Kow Loon where leased and the individuals in questions have a British Overseas Passport and… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
10 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Bravo Andrew. In full agreement.

Mass immigration is the biggest issue this nation faces but no-one will reduce to sensible levels until it is far far too late.

Immigration yes, unlimited free for all, no.

Stu
Stu
10 days ago

“Immigration yes, unlimited free for all, no.” – 100% agree sir.

Martin
Martin
9 days ago

Funny I thought inflation and staff shortages was the biggest issue the country faced.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
9 days ago
Reply to  Martin

Yes, funny.

Funnily enough the concerns of millions like me in the silent majority are ignored each time, or just called “racist ” by the usual liberal elites.

Funny that!

Martin
Martin
9 days ago

There may be millions but it’s 22% of the country. That’s why no one listens. I never called anyone a racist.

John Clark
John Clark
9 days ago

here here

John Clark
John Clark
9 days ago
Reply to  Martin

There issues are primarily caused by the double whammy of Covid and the current Ukrainian War…

Both these issues will resolve over the next few years as new supply lines for oil and gas are worked out and the job market naturally regulates itself, via encouraging wages, or work visas for certain industries…

Stu
Stu
10 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Almost 100% agree with everything you say. Every election I have to hold my nose & vote for the lesser of 2 evils. I pray we have a viable choice soon (any anyone saying “Lib Dem”.. no. Just, no.). My only exception would be the Hong Kong issue; I do feel we should shoulder some responsibility & so far only 88k have come despite the open door policy. BUT we have got to get a handle on immigration in the first place, not the 300k net + 87k illegals each and every year(!!!) which as you rightly say, puts massive… Read more »

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
10 days ago
Reply to  russ

I wish I could have 5 minutes with many members of parliament as it would make me feel much better! I’m sure most of the country feels the same way.

Jon
Jon
9 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

I can’t even get my MP to reply to an e-mail.

russ
russ
9 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

🙂

Nathan
Nathan
10 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

I think the answer lies in this little observation…post 1960s the Labour party owes more to Marx than methodism, previous to that the counter was true.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
10 days ago
Reply to  Nathan

Very true Nathan. I 100% agree that observation. I would vote for the Labour party of 1946 in a heat beat.

John Clark
John Clark
10 days ago
Reply to  Nathan

👍

John Clark
John Clark
10 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

I personally think it’s because in the post mass industrial era, Labour can’t really find it’s place.

As a result, it’s power base is an odd mix of the old Unions twinning with London centric Liberal elite.

Woke Politics tick the box, so that’s the direction of travel…

Just my opinion of course…

OldSchool
OldSchool
10 days ago
Reply to  John Clark

Oh I think Labour has found its place. The far left and let anyone into the country who they think is a potential Labour voter.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
10 days ago
Reply to  OldSchool

Unfortunately the Tories offer a “lite” version of this at the moment as well 🙁 I’m politically homeless at the moment 🙁

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
10 days ago
Reply to  John Clark

I would agree with on the unholy alliance. What I can’t understand is why Labour don’t appoint a socially conservative, reasonably fiscally prudent person that believes in strong manufacturing base, strong defence, strong borders and a strong police force (not police service). They would get a landslide tomorrow if they did. It’s like both parties have been captured by the upper middle class to the detriment of 80% of the rest of the population. These upper middle class control the media, organs of politics and most of the institutions in this land. If they are not careful politics will become… Read more »

Stu
Stu
10 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

You’d get my vote.
Have you looked at the Reclaim Party?

John Clark
John Clark
10 days ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Absolutely Andrew, such a party would get my vote in a heartbeat.

The UK has a golden future ahead of it, yet no one seems to want to grab the reins and push on…..

Martin
Martin
10 days ago
Reply to  russ

Your not alone 😀

Damo
Damo
10 days ago
Reply to  russ

👍👍👍

Sceptical Richard
Sceptical Richard
10 days ago
Reply to  russ

You’re not alone russ although I agree we are in a minority here

russ
russ
9 days ago

Thank you 🙂

Derek
Derek
9 days ago
Reply to  russ

There is another name in that tale. One Arthur Scargill who decided he would use the power of the NUM to bring down the Government. Thatcher was never going to bow down in the face of (popular buzz word alert) such an insurrection, which is what it became. He was shouting through his megaphone that he demanded Jobs for life for us and for our children, meanwhile my Grandfather and Father (both South Yorkshire Mineworkers) told me -Don’t work at the pit, study hard at school and get out, which I did, got a place at Grammar School and have… Read more »

Expat
Expat
9 days ago
Reply to  Derek

Didn’t Scargill get chauffeur driven around in a jag.

Simon
Simon
9 days ago
Reply to  russ

I bet you were popular if your father was a miner and you were a police man!!

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
10 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

I don’t believe most of the stuff that comes out of extreme press on all sides.
Black ice to be renamed as its offensive😂
Tories putting the value of fox hunting on school curriculum😂
Corporal punishment to be reintroduced for persistent offenders😂 etc etc.
All just the usual rubbish. Take the worst and the best you hear and the truth is normally in the middle

Farouk
Farouk
10 days ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

MS wrote: I don’t believe most of the stuff that comes out of extreme press on all sides. Oh I agree totally, and I have a nasty habit of checking the facts, such as the story pushed out by the BBc today of that poor somali migrant child who lost his finger running away from so called racists the BBC headline reads: Raheem Bailey: ‘Racism and constant abuse’ of boy who lost finger Yet looking in the story I can find no mention that he was running away from racists, but rather he was running away from bullies. (which has… Read more »

FV8Eq1PXkAEvNzH.png
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
10 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

Farouk for PM. You’ve got my vote any day mate.

Klonkie
Klonkie
10 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

well written piece Farouk, I enjoy reading your posts.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
10 days ago
Reply to  Klonkie

What always amuses me is the yawning silence from the left leaning once they’ve been debunked.

On news outlets, why is it everytime I go on Google and click News the headline articles are Gaurdian. Independent. Sky News. BBC. ? All biased anti Tory pro EU to the hilt. No right leaning at all.

Brainwashing? Favouritism? Agenda? What happened to impartiality?

Simon
Simon
9 days ago

It does happen the other way, JRM was banging on about EU laws we could drop, highlighting that sparkling wine had to be sold in glass bottles and why not drop that law and use plastic bottles, until it was pointed out that it was unsafe due to the build up of pressure.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
9 days ago
Reply to  Simon

That’s sensible and fair enough.

Klonkie
Klonkie
9 days ago

DM you’ve nailed it. I have always believed impartiality should be a corner pillar of journalism excellence. There is no doubt in mind that quality journalism is all but gone.

NZ Is equally guilty, the standard pf journalism here is appalling , which i think is largely “dictated” by the funding model from our current left leaning governments. There is no desire or ability to hold the government to account in any meaningful way.

The only journalists I admire and respect are those on the front line in Ukraine – true hero s.

Simon
Simon
9 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

In regards to the schoolboy issue, as I live in the town were it happened in there is far more to the story than has been in the news. The mother presented a different image of herself to the media, then she presented in public before it happened and now seems to have disappeared. personally starting a go fund me campaign, not really a good move eather. it is very unlikely that in a South Wales valleys town he was running away from anybody who was his colour, however that seem to have been all sort of other things going… Read more »

Marius
Marius
10 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

Nice read, not pulling any punches either. 🙂

ArmyBrat90s
ArmyBrat90s
9 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

I must say, your post is really disappointing. Openly claiming that unions are “Marxist” and “pro Moscow”. The rail unions primary reason for taking strike action is because the terms and conditions of their employment are being changed, and the cutbacks to staff will lead to fatal incidents happening on British railways. It’s P&O all over again. No major party has pledged to stop all aid to Ukraine, although I read the BNP did though… No major party has pledged to immediately mothball the armed forces or the nuclear deterrent. Rejoining the EU? In case you had not noticed, the… Read more »

Stu
Stu
9 days ago
Reply to  ArmyBrat90s

Mate… Where to start… “will lead to fatal incidents” any proof of this certainty? Increased hours (more than 35?), reducing staff (they’re not needed), small pay rise (given commuter numbers & therefore revenues are down)…. Its Ireland not “Island”. If we have to have a hard border (not inevitable) in NI, so be it. The Good Friday Agreement never said there wouldn’t be one. Scottish Independance was never off the table. Naive to think the SNP will ever give up on that. “Reunitifed Ireland”, blah blah “Obvious result”…. no it wasn’t. If it was, why didn’t anyone mention it in… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
9 days ago
Reply to  Stu

Yes, well said.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
9 days ago
Reply to  Stu

Bravo 👏

Expat
Expat
9 days ago
Reply to  ArmyBrat90s

The strikes have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with modernisation. We’re decades behind some countries who have driverless trains, drones that inspect track with cutting edge laser measuring. Quite frankly we pretty much invented railways now We’re not even a follower in rail technology. Its an embarrassment. Of course automation undermines the political power of the unions so I guess they have the most to loose.its certainly not P&O all over again.

Paul.P
Paul.P
9 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

When you are in a hole the first thing to do is stop digging. We do need to change what we are doing. Untrammelled free market economics is causing world-wide deprivation and is trashing the earth’s ecology. An increasing number of reputable economists are now thinking we need to rethink how global economics works. Migration and wars are caused by a system which elevates individualism, GDP growth and profit to ends in themselves at the expense of personal dignity, democracy and social cohesion. Neither communism, nor populism, nor authoritarianism are the answer. We fresh a politics, but the answer does… Read more »

Expat
Expat
9 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Wealth doesn’t trickle down. Urm, it does capitalism has dragged more people out of real poverty than any other system. The reality is its been too successful allowing populations to live longer, afford consumer goods, access to information. The very screen your looking at the Internet are products of fulfilling need, as are life saving plastics used in the hospitals, of course a by product of the oil and gas industry. We don’t need to throw the baby out with bath water. The notion that capitalists like to keep people poor is obserd, a healthy and wealth population is going… Read more »

Jc
Jc
10 days ago
Reply to  Paul42

Totally agree Paul. The bean counters in Whitehall have already cut numbers to below acceptable levels. Our typhoons are probably the busiest in Europe. We will never purchase anywhere near the original number of F35B’s that was stated by Government. For sure we do not have enough Typhoons. Every time a new Tranche comes along the overall numbers in operation seem to be cut.

Something Different
Something Different
10 days ago
Reply to  Paul42

How did a post about replacing tranche one Tiffys end up about coal mines and the economic policies of the Cold War years. For the record, the current labour government wants to increase defence spending. To balance the political debate the unions were too strong and unreasonable in the 70s and the mines weren’t sustainable economically and environmentally (climate change is bad but policies have started to make a difference slowing the impact which has been helped by the reduction in coal use). It helps no one resorting to stereotypes and exaggerated attacks (the Tories aren’t evil, labour isn’t run… Read more »

Stu
Stu
9 days ago

Woah! Are you trying to talk sense?! 😂
Quite right. Thought I was back on Reddit for a minute there!

russ
russ
9 days ago

I wish I could have put it so succinctly. Sometimes emotion takes over with all of us. 🙂

Expat
Expat
9 days ago

Good post.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
9 days ago

Well said 👍

Rfn_Weston
Rfn_Weston
10 days ago

Anywhere state what the purchase price is?

James H
James H
10 days ago
Reply to  Rfn_Weston
Last edited 10 days ago by James H
Rfn_Weston
Rfn_Weston
10 days ago
Reply to  James H

So just over £80 million GBP a pop. Sounds a steal to me.

A few million per airframe cheaper than the last F35B purchase (Circa £88 million I believe).

James H
James H
10 days ago
Reply to  Rfn_Weston

Only 107 typhoons left, once the tranche 1’s are retired and a very slow F35b build.
You would imagine, keeping the workforce active assembling the complete build until Tempest is more advanced, would be a good idea.
I don’t really understand how across defense has become so hollow, when we have such a large budget.

Rob N
Rob N
9 days ago
Reply to  James H

Replacing our tranche 1 just with new ones would be a good idea. New jets may have extra capabilities we could use.

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
10 days ago
Reply to  Rfn_Weston

€2bn is a pretty good deal for 20 new Tranche 4 and upgrading 20 existing Tranche 3 to Tranche 4.

The Spanish order is also worth £500m to BAE Lancashire plant.

Last edited 10 days ago by Watcherzero
Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
10 days ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

40 state of the art 4.5 planes is not to be sneezed at.

A very solid buy.

Nathan
Nathan
10 days ago

Without the support costs of the F35 too.

Stu
Stu
10 days ago
Reply to  Nathan

Nail on head there bud!

(Not criticising anyone on this site but) Too often some people focus on ‘purchase price’ & forget the other important stuff like cost per flying hour and availability. F35 is a good bit of kit but I read per flying hour is $18k more than Typhoon – over 8,000 hrs per airframe, that’s a LOT.

Rudeboy
Rudeboy
10 days ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Probably even more than that for the UK. 45% of Typhoon is UK content.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
10 days ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

MOD should just say copy and paste that order. It does seem very reasonable value. Im sure the UK would be charged £5 billion for the same work.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
10 days ago
Reply to  Rfn_Weston

Well it says €500m contract for bae systems and they make 38.5% of the aircraft I think. Will be €85-100m per aircraft at a minimum

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
10 days ago

That’s good. So that takes production upto the middle of the decade the article says. I’ve not heard of a plan of how to keep BAE busy with planes until tempest starts being built. I don’t even know if that is needed in the aircraft building world? Don’t want a loss of skills and then a huge cost to get the skills back again.

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
10 days ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Some more orders coming, Egypt is about to order some from Italy and Turkey is preparing to quickly order if US Congress blocks its request for F-16’s. Factor in possibility of Germany ordering another tranche and a chance Serbia might order some and we could see production hit well over 800.

Jack
Jack
10 days ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

I wouldn’t sell to Serbia, they are far too pally with Putin.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
10 days ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Would you trust Turkey with T4 given their cozying to Putin with S400?

There was a reason they were tossed out of F35 world……

Jon
Jon
10 days ago

Turkey is ploughing a more independent furrow. They are not cosying up to Putin (or those TB2s wouldn’t be destroying so much Russian hardware in Ukraine). It was claimed they were tossed out of the F-35 project because Russians would be setting up the S-400s and they could record the F-35’s characteristics. But the Russians are gone. The S-400s have been isolated. They don’t report back to Russia and the reason Turkey are still out is because they challenged the word of the almighty USA. That’s also the main reason they were turfed out of the supply chain, which caused… Read more »

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
10 days ago
Reply to  Jon

The S400 buy was a massive miscalculation.

You can’t have a foot in both camps and be totally trusted.

I suppose the only advantage was that NATO knew how useless it really was?

I don’t think any country, US or not, would tolerate that level of insult.

Jon
Jon
10 days ago

They say the middle of the road is where you are most likely to get run over. I admit I don’t understand why you feel the way you do. It’s okay to buy 30bn euros of petrochemicals from Russia annually as Germany has and is still trusted, but a one off purchase of a missile system is an unforgiveable insult? Central European gas imports have contributed significantly to Russia military spending. Without them current invasion of the Ukraine would not have happened. Tell me again, what did Turkey’s purchase do apart from violate US/EU sanctions that Turkey never agreed to?… Read more »

Rob N
Rob N
9 days ago
Reply to  Jon

I feel the US by trying to strong arm Turkey into buying US damaged NATO by bushing them towards Russia. So what if you wish to buy a non-US system that is their concern. Personally I would not buy it because I might be fighting Russia and could not get spares and ammunition from them.

They probably would have done better to buy an ASTER 30 basses system (not US not Russian).

James
James
9 days ago
Reply to  Jon

Buying a natural resource to simply burn (despite its financial implications) is completely different to handing over state of the art equipment to a dictator who changes his allegiance like most people do underwear.

JC
JC
7 days ago

Totally agree. At this present time I’d not be selling peer equipment to Turkey. For the right deal I could see them allowing Russian technicians to examine the Typhoon and all its modern equipment.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
6 days ago
Reply to  JC

Mad Vlad has increasing amounts of oil and gas on his hands. Oh and a big stockpile of grain that he is trying to get rid of……

You could bribe any despot with that lot!!

JamesD
JamesD
10 days ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

What planet will Serbia be buying any? And why the fuck would we sell them any? They are firmly in the Russian and Chinese camp.

Rudeboy
Rudeboy
10 days ago
Reply to  JamesD

Serbia, Indonesia and Bangladesh were investigating Tranche 1 sales…all unlikely though.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
10 days ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Serbia wont order typhoon. They want our hand-me-down tranche 1s. Would be a bad idea supplying Serbia with anything. They are in Putin’s pocket.
Definetly dont give them advanced radar or meteor access. The Russians andChinese would be reverse engineering it in seconds all courtesy of Serbia.

Farouk
Farouk
10 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

One of the mags I purchased this month, is running an article on the state of affairs regards European airforces and for Serbia has the French as the fav to win the contract for Belgrades plane to replace its 14 Mig 29s with 12 second hand Rafales from the French AAE which the frnech newspaper La tribune stating the offer was made to Serbia in March. It follows that up with the Uk offering 12 of the tranch 1 Typhoons as a counter sale. The end of the article stated that serbia signed a contract in 2016 with Russias state… Read more »

Expat
Expat
9 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

I heard they want Meteor as part of the deal, that would be a bad idea.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
10 days ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

I’m not sure why Serbia needs an airforce?

NATO are not going to invade and they are best mates with Mad Vlad?

Jon
Jon
10 days ago

You think being best mates with Vlad would stop him invading? There are nearly twice the number of Russian troops permanently stationed in Belarus (30,000) than in their own army (16,000).

Stu
Stu
10 days ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

If you have 5 min, read this – https://www.baesystems.com/en/factory-of-the-future – in short, plan is for robots to prevent skills atrophy. Some very cool stuff. Regards keeping busy – I cannot understand for the life of me why BAE are not looking at a Hawk replacement. Boeing estimates they need to build 2,500(!!) T7’s to supply everyone they think will need a new trainer. The T7 leverages loads of Saab tech (including engine and cockpit electronics) in a new, easy to build & maintain package. The AERALIS concept continues to gain traction too. Where are BAE on this? Blows my mind… Read more »

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
9 days ago
Reply to  Stu

The issue being that making planes ‘old school’ is out of the window. The present, labour intensive, skin over frame has got to go at some point. I find it remarkable that it has persisted for so long when F1 when to all carbon a while back. When you get rid of a lot of the high stress metalwork fast printing abs therefore prototyping and even production becomes closer to a thing. Before you scoff too much, on my racing bike, the all carbon frame is lighter than the wheels. Really. On a 6.8kg bike the frame is less than… Read more »

Stu
Stu
9 days ago

Agreed bud. Not going to scoff at anything you said. It’s part of what Factory of the Future is – no more jigs; robots hold parts where they need to be for assembly. This way if the design is changed/updated, it can be implemented in moments, don’t need whole new jig, just tell the robot the new measurements & it adjusts. When I say ‘Hawk replacement’ I didn’t mean a recylcled Hawk. I meant clean sheet design – leverage some of the tech they already have for Typhoon (displays, engine etc.) like Boeing did with Saab & design a 21st… Read more »

Jay R
Jay R
9 days ago
Reply to  Stu

Serbia are no closer to Putin than Saudi Arabia

Expat
Expat
9 days ago

Certainly possible the A350 wings are all layered carbon fibre done by robots. Boeing tried a polycarbonate wing on their x32 that list to the now F35.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
9 days ago
Reply to  Expat

Exactly this.

But civil airlines are one thing g and the battle stresses and damage of military are something else.

Expat
Expat
9 days ago

True there little question carbon fibre can take the stress but it’s more difficult to patch and repair.

Expat
Expat
9 days ago
Reply to  Stu

Don’t tell the unions they’re using robots, mention modernisation or automaton then Tempest is done for.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
9 days ago
Reply to  Expat

I think the unions perfectly well understand that riveted planes are history in the medium term. Typhoon would, almost certainly, be the last.

There will be plenty of more secure jobs as a result of Tempest moving at pace.

BAE has, to be fair, had reasonable industrial relations.

Anyway: this is out there on their website!

Expat
Expat
9 days ago

It was a bit of tongue in cheek comment. In some industries they’re better than others.

Expat
Expat
9 days ago
Reply to  Stu

There’s still risk of loosing skills in some areas like QA, inspection, and final assembly techniques. I think most new tech will be in component or section manufacturing. Its not surprising countries like Turkey will demand they do final assembly because they want those skills and knowledge

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
9 days ago
Reply to  Expat

Too true.

It will be higher skill levels.

Stu
Stu
9 days ago
Reply to  Expat

Very good point. Hadn’t considered such things. 👍🏼

Jay R
Jay R
10 days ago

And the AV8Bs will soldier on…

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
10 days ago
Reply to  Jay R

What is the point of that comment?

We have F35B in hand and more on order which are much more useful than Harrier GR7/9 or AV8B for any real world situation.

Sean
Sean
10 days ago
Reply to  Jay R

Not in the Spanish Air force they don’t, which is what this story is about.

The Spanish Navy still operate 12 of this 44 year old design. Simple fact is they can’t afford to replace them and the F35B is the only game in town.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
10 days ago
Reply to  Sean

The Spanish could afford a small 12-18 aircraft F35B order for their navy. They just choose not too.

Sean
Sean
10 days ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

No they chose to wait as each year the F35 gets cheaper while it also gets more capable the longer they wait.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
10 days ago
Reply to  Sean

The main thing is what does Spain use its carrier for? Is it ground support only? Fleet defence? Do they need F35B just now? As a weapons carrying platform the harrier may have a bigger variety of what they see as weapons needed.
Once block 4 is ready and the marine Corps retire harrier they will switch or retire naval planes.

JamesD
JamesD
10 days ago
Reply to  Jay R

All 12 what’s your point

Jay R
Jay R
10 days ago
Reply to  JamesD

Point is they should be ordering F35Bs not Typhoons. F35Bs can replace the Harriers, Hornets and older Typhoons.

Jon
Jon
10 days ago
Reply to  Jay R

Until the F-35 can carry UK weapons of choice, it can at best have a supporting role, primarily as an integrator. It needs to add at least Meteor/JNAAM and Spear, and even then it will rely on Typhoons or loyal wingmen for stand-off strike delivery. The alternative is to give up on UK missiles and buy American, rewarding them for deproritising our needs.

24 more Typhoons is a sensible purchase for the UK right now. But I can’t see it happening. The RAF is too politically weak.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
9 days ago
Reply to  Jon

We may well see an order to tide BAE over until they have something newer to make.

It is all politics but at least the issue of skills fade is understood.

Jon
Jon
9 days ago

Good point

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
9 days ago
Reply to  Jon

I fervently hope so!

If one thing was learned from the Astute program…..

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
9 days ago
Reply to  Jon

The RAF is not politically weak. We have a huge equipment plan, and the money only goes so far. We are upgrading our Typhoons to a very high standard. More capable than new builds for Germany and Spain.We want more F35’s, fund Tempest, a host of new weapons coming on-line. Its all big money, and difficult choices have to be made.

JamesD
JamesD
10 days ago

I’d like to see a follow on order for the RAF if nothing more than to keep production line open and maybe replace the absolutely pointless decision to get rid of the T1 but drones and lethality etc etc

Nathan
Nathan
10 days ago
Reply to  JamesD

Convert the T1 to drones!

Jon
Jon
10 days ago
Reply to  Nathan

Interesting suggestion. Perhaps suicide drones. A bit twin towers for comfort, perhaps.

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
10 days ago
Reply to  Jon

We’re sold the idea that drones will be all, but suspect they’re just a grab at cheaper which, to be effective, they won’t be. However, needed a bit of real world action to assess current status. First inkling on this aspect maybe:-
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukrainian-fighter-pilots-call-bullshit-on-need-for-mq-1c-gray-eagle-drones

BobA
BobA
9 days ago
Reply to  Gavin Gordon

I was wondering when the aspect of truly contested airspace was going to come up out of the conflict. All of these drones are great until you find out how vulnerable they are. That’s before we factor in the massive RF signature they’re going to give off if used en masse. There can be no such thing as a truly Stealth Drone unless it’s completely autonomous – and if we want, for ethical reasons, a human in the kill chain, then they can’t be autonomous. Huge benefits no doubt, but not the silver bullet they’re being touted as. Merely another… Read more »

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
9 days ago
Reply to  BobA

Indeed

Expat
Expat
9 days ago
Reply to  BobA

Drones received more data than they send and interms of radar emissions and sensors that would be the same as manned aircraft.i believe Taranis project was uks test bed for stealthy antenna.

BobA
BobA
9 days ago
Reply to  Expat

Ok, that makes sense, however we also need to consider the control stations. Until now, they’ve really been an operational level asset and been controlled from a long way away. However what we see now is integration of RPAS at the tactical level, as a result the control station will need to be closer to the commander. We’ll need to be really careful about how we disperse them otherwise our HQ elements will be a really easy target to anyone with good ELINT, and DF capability. It’ll be like having to disperse your antenna farm but on a much harder… Read more »

Stu
Stu
10 days ago
Reply to  Nathan

How have I not heard this idea before!? If nothing else, use as tech demonstrator/testbed for loyal wingman. But a mach 2 drone with 750 mile range & 9 ton payload anyone?
I’m sure someone will have some good reasons as to why not but sounds good to me.

Bob
Bob
9 days ago
Reply to  Nathan

Give them to the Arrows. Entertaining in the short term and if things do go pear shaped ten T1’s in reserve would be preferable to ten Hawks.

Rob
Rob
10 days ago

Speculation on further UK jets.

Best option is:
4 x F35B Squadrons
4 x F35A Squadrons
8 x Typhoon FGR4 Squadrons

Affordable with UK defence spending at 2.5% as it should be, especially with what is going on in Ukraine.

Andrew D
Andrew D
10 days ago
Reply to  Rob

Would be nice Rob ,like me it’s wishful thinking 🙏

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
10 days ago
Reply to  Rob

Pipe dream sadly. With the latest defence uplift the forces are getting smaller.
Jon outlined to me on another thread 44 billion to Nuclear/ DNO / AWE / Trident / SSN SSBN over next 10 years, there’s the money.
I predict remaining at 8. 5 Typhoon ( down 2 ) 3 F35. ( Up 2 ) from current numbers, with hopefully squadrons of UCAV supplementing.

Which I would take if they’re all top spec and the UCAVs arrive as planned.

Steve M
Steve M
10 days ago

My concern is the repeated news about upgrades/new engines for F-35 A & C but no intention to adapt to the B. The decision to change to C and then not could well come back to haunt the RN. but of course none to the current Whitehall warriors will be about to give a toss. The QE’s were supposed to be able to accom Cats/Traps in the requirement as they are expected to last twice long as the aircraft designs. think we need to seriously look at changing them sooner rather than later and converting new F-35’s to C model

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
10 days ago
Reply to  Steve M

Wonder if RR could make the whole power plant for the F-35Bs or something new? An evolved Pegasus design, JV or under license?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
9 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

Pegasus worked in a totally different way to what is in the F35B and it won’t support supersonic flight.

Yes, RR could develop a power plant for F35B but why spend money going solo down a very expensive and high risk route.

Steve M
Steve M
9 days ago

Hi SB, I’m not an Engineer so more than prepared to be laughed at and put back in box. I have a query regarding jet engines (specifically Harrier/F-35B) is there a reason why you could not take the front LP fans and vector thrust nozzels from a Pegasus Mk107 and using an extended drive shaft match up with the HP fans/vector thrust nozzle of the F135? which for my limited thinking would allow the vstol and super cruise A drive shaft is used to power the 20k lbs current lift fan so i can’t see that as a problem. Air… Read more »

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
9 days ago
Reply to  Steve M

I’m no jet engine expert either. I think the issue is that the geometry is wrong. To alter the geometry of the built plane would be a massive undertaking. The point of where the lift fan is on F35B is to get it as far forward as possible: the further fOnwards the less absolute thrust/power it needs. In F35B the fan is vertical – Pegasus was all horizontal with ducts. Because F35B uses vectored thrust this will create a huge turning moment that the front fan/nozzles would have to counteract. Pegasus used 4 sets of main nozzles relatively close to… Read more »

Steve M
Steve M
9 days ago

Was thinking more Son of F-35b or Harrier X, i can’t see the F-35b being in service in 30 years

Jon
Jon
9 days ago

Tempest testbed?

Quentin D6
Quentin D6
5 days ago
Reply to  Paul T

Thanks for the info on this Paul. So near but so far. Hope VSTOL development doesn’t stop with the F35B. I like Steve’s “Harrier X” tag above.

Sean
Sean
10 days ago
Reply to  Steve M

If any F35 gets canned it’ll be the F35C. The only operator is the USN and they’ve been cutting back on orders while the F35B is picking up more and more international customers. Engine upgrades are planned for all versions of F35.

DanielMorgan
DanielMorgan
10 days ago
Reply to  Sean

There is no funded plan to upgrade the engines on the F-35B. There are industry proposals, but they are only proposals. The Pentagon can’t afford them.

Steve M
Steve M
9 days ago
Reply to  Sean
Sean
Sean
9 days ago
Reply to  Steve M

And the articles comment “variant not currently believed suitable for AETP retrofitting” is plain wrong if you’d bothered to read the article I linked-to that QUOTED THE MANUFACTURER rather than a journalist 🤦🏻‍♂️

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
9 days ago
Reply to  Sean

I agree the F35B is exporting well and is the naval variant of choice.

Daveyb
Daveyb
9 days ago
Reply to  Steve M

The problem may not be a problem, as more countries have bought the F35B than expected. If there is a healthy market, then there should be an appetite for upgrades. The current Pratt& Whitney F135 is going through a modification program currently. This is due to hairline cracks found in a number of the hot section turbine blades. It predominantly effects the F35B’s -600 variant. As this places the greater strain on the engine when in the hover. P&W have an enhancement program mapped out for the F135. With Block 1 giving a 6 to 10% thrust improvement along with… Read more »

Expat
Expat
9 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

I don’t think the problem exists the other way around so a F13n engine for the B would be a candidate for the A and C. GE has said they can do some re-engineering to get their x100.engine to work in the B but the issue is funding.

DaveyB
DaveyB
9 days ago
Reply to  Expat

Not heard GE say they could modify the X100, but if they can great. Like I said earlier, there’s now going to be over 500 B models, with the USMC having over 300. So I’d like to say there’s a healthy market for an improved engine.

Klonkie
Klonkie
10 days ago

Hi DM

How are tricks? Interestingly, Rob’s suggestion would place the RAF at the same level of front line fast jet squadrons post the 2003/4 cuts = 16. (excluding OCU squadrons).

As you point out, it will never happen. The numbers you tabled do seem viable though. I’m guessing there will be provision for a couple of RN squadrons from the joint shared F35 pool, eventually?

Have a good weekend!

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
10 days ago
Reply to  Klonkie

Morning K. The next squadron to form is a RN FAA Squadron. I think what many people ask for on this forum are fully FAA manned and funded squadrons, totally RN owned and operated F35 aircraft. Unlikely to happen as, like Joint Force Harrier, all squadrons are jointly manned regardless of the RAF or FAA number plate. I’d also prefer an all FAA fleet like many, leaving other RAF squadrons to do their thing elsewhere and only deploy to QEC in extremis. But with limited numbers I understand why things are done this way. I also believe the aircraft are… Read more »

Klonkie
Klonkie
9 days ago

Thanks DM , I agree with your view on an all FAA fleet, but can appreciate the funding restraints. So a joint shared pool is fine, better to have this capability then none, I guess.

Angus
Angus
7 days ago

MOD owned actually as are all assets. FAA have different working ethics that are attuned for working at sea. FAA personnel don’t mind being at sea or land, can’t say that is the thing for the light blue jobs. The Services have differing separate service views the RAF’s not really being the thing with the Fleet which means more turn over and cost when ship deployed. All Services should be the same. and not the lesser soft step either. RN is 2 years in 3 years, not 4 months in a life time

Klonkie
Klonkie
10 days ago
Reply to  Rob

Hi Rod. Oddly enough, I have ( for several years now) held exactly the same views on the squadron number and composition as you outlined.

This would retain the RAF to the same level of front line (excluding OCUs) fast jet squadrons post the 2003/4 cuts = 16

Sean
Sean
10 days ago
Reply to  Rob

That would be daft. Buying the F35A is like buying another aircraft in terms of maintenance costs and spares.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
10 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Get another squadron of the b model taking it back to 4. 2 typhoon squadrons of new aircraft. More to be made up with big drones when they come online

Expat
Expat
9 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Not really mist of the heavy maintenance is done at depots. Starting pilots out on the B would also.means switching to the A is relatively easy. You also gain as a lot if allies operate the A so can forward base. Of course its cheap to buy and maintain the A and has more range and payliad . It needs a proper analysis

Sean
Sean
9 days ago
Reply to  Expat

And the majority of the regular maintenance is performed by ground crew on base or onboard. So you pay the extra expense to qualify pilots to fly the F35B, using ski jumps, vertical and rolling landings, and then stick them in the F35A – an aircraft with very different handling characteristics… You get no more gain than with those allies flying the F35B. Even then it’s not so straightforward as different air forces use different weapons and have different procedures. Which is why the USMC embarked their own ground crews and equipment, supplies and weapons, when they joined the QE… Read more »

Last edited 9 days ago by Sean
Expat
Expat
9 days ago
Reply to  Sean

The spares thing is overplayed. Pretty much within the fleet your airframes may be at different mod levels so.you have to hold varying spares you use complex MRO software to keep track of the configuration on the airframe.and mod level. The F35 also has advance logistic software reducing the need to carry large inventories.

Moving between A and B it’s not like going from. Tornado to Typhoon the cockpit is largely common. I very much doubt a full analysis has been done because we barely commit to enough to support the carriers.

Last edited 9 days ago by Expat
Sean
Sean
9 days ago
Reply to  Expat

The spares thing isn’t overplayed, and saying it highlights your lack of knowledge over the programme. In fact a major reason why F35s are not getting the flight availability they should is due to lack of spares, and due to issues with LM’s logistic management software. Indeed it’s so bad, the US military has decided to replace it with its own rather than hope that LM can completely fix it. So because the buttons and levers are similar it must be identical to fly? So I guess driving a Mini and an 18 wheeler truck must be the same because… Read more »

Expat
Expat
9 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Yes the program has problems and ALIS is being replaced so the problem is recognised and will be replaced which is good once that’s done spares will.not be a problem. Factoring a shoter term issue like the ALIS into the cost of running a fleet for 30 years is no way to do a cost capability analysis . However the logistic issue makes running a more complex B more expensive. However the biggest issue is none availability of the engines as the maintenance at the depot is too long. P and W have been working to reduce the turn around… Read more »

Last edited 9 days ago by Expat
Sean
Sean
9 days ago
Reply to  Expat

Actually the USAF itself has been advising P&W how to improve deep engine maintenance and have vastly improved throughout.Tinker AFB have been able to cut engine overhaul time by over half to just over 100 days now. Japan has a smaller defence budget, the U.K.‘s is the 3rd largest in the world now. But that doesn’t take into account the cost of the nuclear deterrent, and not does it take into account relative purchasing power. Which is why the Japanese Navy can afford a fleet of 150+ ships and 346 aircraft, compared to the RN’s 80+ ships, and 160 aircraft.… Read more »

Sean the real Sean
Sean the real Sean
9 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Easier to jump from an B to an A then from a 757 to a 767

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
10 days ago
Reply to  Rob

Just add 3 extra P8, 2 extra Wedgetails and have a big think about a Merlin replacement.
seems to me that with the issues with the NH90 there is a market for a NG Merlin and we don’t have enough at present. So add 50 New ones please.

Then reality sets in the U.K. defence Governent mindset.

Sleep – Sleep perchance to dream

Jon
Jon
10 days ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

I could count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I had no budget. However, there are still rumours about a second tranche of two Wedgetails at some point in the future.

Steve M
Steve M
9 days ago
Reply to  Rob

Better to have
6 x F-35B (allows for both QE’s to have 24 on board and to have surge / training ability)
10x Typhoon FGR4
plus extra 5 x P8 & 3 x E7

David Lloyd
David Lloyd
10 days ago

There has been a great deal of misinformation posted here about Thatcher so I’m going to stick to facts. Firstly, Thatcher and her successor Major managed to destroy the industral base of the UK so thoroughly that we have never had a balance of payments surplus since – and today the National Debt stands at £2.4 TRILLION Secondly, three years after Thatcher came to power, in 1983 we had over three million out of work for the first time since the Great Depression. Unemployment hit hardest in Northern Ireland, where one in five people was out of work in the… Read more »

Last edited 10 days ago by David Lloyd
JamesD
JamesD
10 days ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

Please don’t excuse the Blair era will you…

David Lloyd
David Lloyd
10 days ago
Reply to  JamesD

Blair was a clever and successful, but slippery New Labour politician who won three elections – and kept them in power until he resigned from the party leadership after 13 years in favour of Gordon Brown, who laughably lost the 2010 election that put Cameron and Clegg into government and which led to the malign and disastrous 2010 SDSR Every so often Bliar tries to act like a statesman and makes pontificating statements aimed at drumming up business for his consultancy Tony Blair Associates. Several countries in the Middle East and elsewhere allege that Blair is a war criminal and… Read more »

JamesD
JamesD
10 days ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

Ok I’m just confused now 😅

AV
AV
10 days ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

Any the unions played no part in any of this ?..

David Lloyd
David Lloyd
10 days ago
Reply to  AV

The unions have had nothing to do with this government selling off important strategic defence companies such as Cobham and Ultra Electronics, Kwarteng has authorised these sales to bring US dollars into the treasury, which slightly offsets the balance of trade deficit. This government has had 14 years to rebuild our manufacturing and industrial base but has manifestly failed to do so, allowing company after company to be sold off so they can maintain the lie that they are the ‘party of economic management’ The byelection results last night clearly show that the public has seen through Johnsonski’s lying and… Read more »

AV
AV
10 days ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

Not going to happen 🤣

Expat
Expat
9 days ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

An BAe global defence giant because. BP is a multinational energy company because? BA own how many airlies? So your suggestion is what block foreign take overs which would certainly see a reciprocal response. Thats very inward looking and market limiting for uk companies. Or what nationalise pretty much every nationalised industry has been loss making bar 1 or 2 examples. As for unions when has a union ever called for action when a company slashes its RnD budget. RnD is what guarantees new products and a future for employees. Infact its more likely unions have been responsible for cuts… Read more »

Nathan
Nathan
10 days ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

About the same time we cosied up to the Europeans and harmonised our economy with theirs…why did Europe need more competitors? They didnt. That was the unwritten agreement. We got services and finance, Germany and France kept heavy engineering. But, we never got a single market for services….Only goods. That’s a double cross. I heard the same story in Poland. The Szczecin ship yards were closed to avoid introducing a cheap competitor to Hamburg on Germany’s door step. Destroyed local workforce. Note also how rail was privatised across the EU, much of polish rail is now owned, like ours, by… Read more »

Sean
Sean
10 days ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

And right now we have the highest levels of employment ever. Thatcher inherited massive unemployment from Labour and out of control unions that made the U.K. the sick man of Europe in terms of productivity. The unions destroyed large sections of industrial base, not Thatcher. We had a balance of payments in the late 90’s and early 2000’s but Blair went on mad spending spree instead of saving for less troubled times. Yes we have a high national debt now, have you been asleep for the last 2?years? We had something called a pandemic that racked up most nations national… Read more »

Stuart Paterson
Stuart Paterson
10 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Like most Tories you seem to like to avoid referring to the fact that the Tories have been in power for over 12 years and have done nothing to improve productivity, or much else. In fact they have only succeeded in making democracy and politics in this country the laughing stock of the world. We are heading back to the issues of the 70’s & 80’s thanks to them and you can’t blame any other political party for that it is all on them. The Tories have virtually renationalised the railways in all but name, I wonder why??? Maybe the… Read more »

Sean
Sean
10 days ago

Typical socialist, black and white view of the world, if you don’t support us you’re the hated enemy. Which is why you keep losing elections, because you insult people when they don’t vote for you rather than ask why are you so unattractive to voters. (And I have over my life voted for ALL mainstream political parties based on the best manifesto proposals at the time. Whereas you sound like one of those dogmatic ideologues that will “vote for my party, right it wrongly”.) It’s ridiculous saying the Tories have been in 12 years, there’s been 3 different prime ministers,… Read more »

Stuart Paterson
Stuart Paterson
10 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Typical ranty gammon, my party hasn’t lost an election for years sweetheart x

Sean
Sean
10 days ago

Oh and you do racial stereotyping too!
That doesn’t surprise me coming from a socialist. Glad to see you feel comfortable about coming out.

ps: ok so not elections but you do keep losing referendums 😆

Last edited 10 days ago by Sean
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
9 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Bravo. One rule for the left and one for the rest that don’t fit their agenda.

Expat
Expat
9 days ago

You are aware gammon is a racist expression. Colour of skin is not a political choice.

John Clark
John Clark
9 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Beautifully put Sean ….

Simon
Simon
9 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Is the highest level of employment based on the number of people employed or as a percentage of the UK population?

Expat
Expat
9 days ago
Reply to  David Lloyd

So UK is the 9th largest manufacturer in the world. Infact per person we manufacture as much as China the number one it the world and per person more than France. Let’s be blunt here UK manufacturing died because even British people didn’t want British products. In 1977 the British public had the choice of a Golf or what an Allegro. British factories couldn’t implement quality techniques that Japan took learnt the US. That has nothing to do with politics.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
9 days ago
Reply to  Expat

This is the problem. Everyone blaming each other for stuff they personally have no control over. Both parties do good and bad.
As one treasury politician once said during a crisis: we
Didn’t know what to do. The civil service around us were fantastic. That day a lot of us realised we dont know what we are doing in the departments.
We all got into politics due to a love of the politics. Hardly any of us know how to run a massive department and just cause problems.

John N
John N
10 days ago
Steve
Steve
10 days ago

We live in a new world where russian air force has failed to get air supremacy over Ukraine, which is using massively outdated jets. I would say the trance1 are fine for air defence. Meaning f35 stealth is not needed

If you look at the realistic wars we will fight, then bomb trucks are more important than survivability or stealth and the typhoon can carry more than even the f35a, so we should look to buy more to avoid overusage of the few we have left.

Sean
Sean
10 days ago
Reply to  Steve

I’m sure our air crews won’t be pleased to hear you’re happy to sacrifice their lives because you don’t rate survivability or stealth…. I’m surprised you’re not advocating the reintroduction of the Lancaster to front-line service.

Steve
Steve
10 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Defence is about compromises, even the US couldn’t afford to have a full f22 fleet. If we put our aircrews against a peer enemy, we have the f35b for that, but how realistic is that now that Russia is effectively gone as a convential military threat.

Sean
Sean
10 days ago
Reply to  Steve

I’m sure your words will be comforting to the air-crews widows and orphans…

Russia is far from gone as a conventional military threat and then there’s China. Five years from now who knows where the threat will come from. Plenty of Putin wannabes in the world.

Steve
Steve
10 days ago
Reply to  Steve

Plus what do you think the ground forces would prefer, surely they would prefer a typhoon that carries more firepower and longer time on station, for close air support.

Sean
Sean
9 days ago
Reply to  Steve

The ground forces will prefer an aircraft in the air that can support them, rather than one that’s burning wreckage on the ground. The F35s stealth gives it protection the Typhoon can never have.

Steve
Steve
9 days ago
Reply to  Sean

But what are they going to get shot down by? Any realsitic country we are going to war with will have soviet or russian weapons and their Sam systems have turned out to be absolute garbage in the Ukraine war.

I mean consider the strikes on snake island. Its an island and so the absolute best case scenario for defending, as no hills etc that approaching missiles can hide behind and it’s loaded with SAM sites and radars, and yet it keeps getting hit.

Last edited 9 days ago by Steve
Sean
Sean
9 days ago
Reply to  Steve

You do realise that a lot of the shoot-downs by the Ukrainians have been with Soviet era weaponry? 🤷🏻‍♂️
The big difference between them and the Russians using similar systems is the Ukrainians have properly maintained these systems and their users are both well trained and highly motivated.
If the likes of the S400 was “absolute garbage” the USA wouldn’t have thrown Turkey out of the F35 programme over buying it. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Steve
Steve
9 days ago
Reply to  Sean

The only reason the Russian planes have been shot down is because they have had to fly low thanks to lack fo smart bombs. We saw the same thing in Syria.

The USA threw Turkey out of the program because they brought Russian and not US, had nothing to do with capability. In fact it demonstrates they weren’t concerned by the capabiltiy, as if it they felt it was good, the US and NATO would have loved to have one in NATO to practice against.

Last edited 9 days ago by Steve
Sean
Sean
9 days ago
Reply to  Steve

Rubbish. The Ukrainians themselves have boasted about the high-flying Russian aircraft taken-out by S300 systems. That’s why when they fire their air-launched cruise missiles their aircraft now stay out over the Black Sea or Russian controlled territory. Ukranian S300’s take out high-flying aircraft, Stingers and Starstreak take-out low-flying aircraft. Together it’s easy to see why the Russian Air Force has suffered such losses and has failed to gain air superiority. Completely and utterly wrong. The Americans as a last minute attempt to stop the S400 purchase offered to give the Turks a Patriot system for free. The USA and NATO… Read more »

Steve
Steve
9 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Seriously think it through. Why would the US not want a NATO country and a major ally in the region to have the best air defense going? Its got zip to do with capability it’s fully down to polictics and the US being annoyed they were not buying American. They did the same with other countries, when they looked at other country kit, they threatened to pull stuff to stop it.

Sean
Sean
9 days ago
Reply to  Steve

OMG the conspiracy theories are strong in this one!!! 🤣😂🤣😂

Like I said, completely ignoring the inconvenient facts of the case.

Turkey was thrown out if the F35 to protect the capabilities of the F35. The USA took a financial hit not being able to sell the F35, to Turkey, but it did so on security grounds.

You probably think the USA has crashed alien UFOs at Area 51 too, or that the earth is flat…

Steve
Steve
9 days ago
Reply to  Sean

How does a NATO member having a platform vaguely impact the secruity of the F35? the only vaguely possible way is that the tracking info could be sent back to Russia, but equally Russia/China has radars on their border and will be tracking NATO/allied aircraft exercising near them, which will include the F35, so will have all the data it could get from Turkey. Plus they have the data from Syria. If your saying the US didn’t trust Turkey to leak the info to Russia, then that’s a wider issue and doesn’t explain why they would suddenly trust Turket if… Read more »

Steve
Steve
9 days ago
Reply to  Steve

Add to that, US is happily selling f35 to a number of eastern European NATO members that have soviet era kit.

Sean
Sean
9 days ago
Reply to  Steve

Yes it’s conspiracy, your reasoning is the same as all the lunatic anti-vaxxers. So although I’ve explained the facts to you, you still won’t believe them, and instead continue to spout your conspiracy theory which as no basis in fact but clearly stems from your anti-Americanism.

The East European nations that are buying the F35 don’t operate the S-400 which is the system NATO is concerned about. Dimwit.

I’ve wasted enough time with you.

Steve
Steve
8 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Like I said facts not vague statements. For years national secuirty was a reasoning for imprisoning blacks in the US or restricting voters in trump era to try and win elections, it can’t be believed on face value, it has to be backed up with facts. From my side, if your scared of a enemy asset, you want to have a version of it to study and learn how to beat, just like the US stole so may soviet planes, Sam, even a sub etc during the cold war. Having one inside NATO gives every NATO nation that ability. Name… Read more »

Sean
Sean
8 days ago
Reply to  Steve

🥱

Dave Wolfy
Dave Wolfy
8 days ago
Reply to  Steve

The unrealistic Argentinians did not have Soviet weapons.

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
10 days ago
Reply to  Steve

Understand where your coming from. Wars are death whatever, and increasingly civilian. Wars without death would be nice; or just lead to perennial war perhaps. Typhoon is increasingly showing its worth – and potential in the short timespan that maybe upon us. Time was that the US would just build what it wanted, and still does when compared with allies. However, there is increasing talk of funding compromises within their military due to costs, reminiscent of the path we’ve been on for years. And still Europe, inc UK, regard them as our saviour, to the extent we’ve been slow to… Read more »

Daveyb
Daveyb
9 days ago
Reply to  Gavin Gordon

If anything the Ukraine War has shown what happens when you don’t have enough and run out of anti-radiation missiles. Close air support is next to impossible when you are faced with medium ranged SAMs backed up with SHORAD and MANPADS. Russia have finally got their act together with regards to air defence over the Donbass region! They have truly multi-layered their defences. Ukraine have admitted to loosing a shed load of TB2s over this region. Recent interviews with Ukrainian pilots have said its next to impossible to attack targets in the Donbass now. They don’t have any anti-radiation missiles… Read more »

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
9 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

Yes, F16s. But they need an available supply right now, that’s the rub, naturally.
Similarly, I wonder how many a/t weapons we’ve exhausted, should Vlad be crazy enough to attempt to break for Kaliningrad. Cannot see that, due to exposed flanks, but the sheets not called Mad for nothing.
Either way, we owe Ukraine and incredible debt on how peer warfare will look. Unpayable if it’s measured in blood.

Daveyb
Daveyb
9 days ago
Reply to  Gavin Gordon

The question of giving Ukraine our war stocks and how quickly can they be restocked, has been raised in Parliament. The answer was not immediately forthcoming and will be given as a written statement. Which means they don’t know. I know Thales are recruiting like mad for people to work at their Belfast plant that makes the NLAW, Starstreak and Martlet. Similarly both BAe and MBDA are heavily recruiting. IN the US they have said it may take up to 2 years to replenish the stocks of Javelin, they have given Ukraine. The problem for the UK is that we… Read more »

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
8 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

Thanks for the comprehensive reply. Ukraine is in the unigue position of having more qualified fighter pilots than fighters at present we are informed. Them give them fighters and stop playing by Russia’s rule book on what will make them mad (der).

Daveyb
Daveyb
9 days ago
Reply to  Sean

Mosquito, not the Lancaster.

Dave Wolfy
Dave Wolfy
8 days ago
Reply to  Steve

We realistically did not plan to fight the Falklands, that cost us.

Damian Poole
Damian Poole
10 days ago

Is the Spanish airforce getting the new German radar or the british version?

Bill
Bill
10 days ago

And the RAF order just to maintain the numbers is……in the post!

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
10 days ago

Can we got 24-36 more of latest multi role batch to replace our tranche 1s. There is a war on just a few hundred miles away where this evil dictator is invading a democratic sovereign country. You would think despite the utter mess in the economy that some orders for additional kit and more personnel would have been forthcoming.

Damo
Damo
10 days ago

I’ll miss seeing the f18s in Gran Canaria. Always worth a good skeg while landing and being ferried to the hotel. Feels like a dull posting. Where’s the threat coming from? West Africa?

AlexS
AlexS
10 days ago
Reply to  Damo

Morocco and their contentious relation with Spain in relation with Ceuta and Melilla but not only.

Farouk
Farouk
10 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

I think you will find Morroco has more on its plate with Algeria at the moment (talking war drums here) than it has with Spain. Relations between the two plummeted after Morocco normalized its relations with Israel in exchange for U.S. recognition of the kingdom’s sovereignty over the Western Sahara territory, and since that time, then in March Algeria was further offended after Spain expressed its support for Morocco’s autonomy plan for the Western Sahara. That Western Sahara which has been a bone of contention with Morocco for years and which Algeria supports, things took a turn for the worse last… Read more »

Last edited 10 days ago by Farouk
Jon
Jon
10 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

Algeria spends 3 times what Morocco does on its military, but it mostly buys from Russia. Morocco mostly buys from the US.

Both countries are increasing spending, especially on the air domain. Rumours have the Algerians going Su-57 and Moroccans asking the US for F-35s. Rumour further has Algeria with S-400 while Morocco goes Israeli, with Iron Dome, Barak intermediate and possibly Arrow anti-ballistics.

That’s some scary level buying. Not that long ago Morocco was reportedly considering more Mirages!

Damo
Damo
10 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

Yeah never thought of North Africa though I’d imagine little in the way of incursions like the Russians do. Not at the moment anyway. I always saw the f18s leave west and return from the west but i appreciate that means nothing

Farouk
Farouk
10 days ago
Reply to  Damo

According to last months Airforces Monthly The F18s based in Gran Canaria are the 24 second F18A+ purchased from the US between 2001 to 2008 due to the fact that they run on the the US supplied software as opposed to the Spanish designed software Operational Flight program (OFP)-08E which runs on the 72 F18s Spain purchased between 1986 and 1992. This has resulted in the two different purchases operating different weapons (with the later purchase centered on US weapons which is why the GC ones can carry the Harpoon, HARM and Maverick missiles. One thing I couldnt get my… Read more »

Last edited 10 days ago by Farouk
Damo
Damo
10 days ago
Reply to  Farouk

Makes a lot of sense re being equipped with harpoon etc. Southern tip of nato, if the chinese did decide to sail up the Atlantic etc. Perhaps they mean the fine volcanic dust intermixed with the calima from the sahara?

Thanks btw 👍

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
10 days ago

Still plenty of life left in the Eurofighter and these will eventually add to NATOs capabilities along with Spear EW.

T1 replacements would be most welcome!

The program transforms the Eurofighter into a Stand-Off Jamming attack platform, an Escort Jamming platform, and adds a Stand-In jamming system in the form of an unmanned Airborne Launched Decoy (ALD).

https://www.turdef.com/Article/eurofighter-presents-the-ecr-version-for-luftwaffe-s-approval/1775

6f6704cc-8fbb-4a69-8ba3-04caea742e54.jpg
Last edited 10 days ago by Nigel Collins
Martin
Martin
10 days ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

If we were to get more Typhoons it should certainly be this version. Electronic attack is something we are desperately short on.

Jon
Jon
9 days ago
Reply to  Martin

The Mk2 radars have that, and the prototype should be delivered by the end of this year. Whether the RAF can bring forward IOC from 2030 is unknown.

Finney
Finney
9 days ago

To move away from the fascinating chat about which political party is the worst, does anyone know who still has “options” for more Eurofighters? I seem to remember that Saudi and some other gulf state did. It would be nice to keep production going until 2030 ish.

Mark
Mark
9 days ago
Reply to  Finney

Egypt is reportedly meant to have an arms package with Italy soon that will include Eurofighters?