The October 7th 2023 attacks are likely just the beginning of another wave of Terrorist attacks that the world must act quickly to deter and prevent.
Back in 2021, I wrote two articles relating to the withdrawal from Afghanistan and the resurgence of the Taliban that came about because of it.
Two years on, pro-Iran terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah are in active warfare against Israel, and other groups are regularly attacking US forces across the Middle East as the rise/return of terrorist groups intensifies.
This article is the opinion of the author and not necessarily that of the UK Defence Journal. If you would like to submit your own article on this topic or any other, please see our submission guidelines.ย
The problem is, the world should have seen this coming โ and I was one of many who wrote back in 2021 warning that this day would come.
The US and allied withdrawal from Afghanistan has, to a certain extent, emboldened the terrorist world. After 20 years of fighting there, the Taliban ultimately won โ a fact that most politicians shy away from and a fact that has caused despair among many veterans Iโve spoken to, several of whom have asked: โWas it all in vain?โ
The issue is the October 7 2023, attack on Israel by Hamas terrorists from Gaza shows that the threat of attacks will always be present while these groups continue to exist. Israelโs intent now is to do its very best to wipe Hamas off the face of the earth, a task that has already cost 320 soldiers in total both during and after the attack and will likely cost a great deal more in the coming weeks and months.
The fall-out from that attack is also noticeable. Weโve seen more than 30 attacks by pro-Iran terror groups against US bases across Iraq and Syria in the last few weeks, many of these emboldened by Hamasโ successes. Weโve also seen the Houthi militias in Yemen firing missiles towards Israel, with a notable 9-hour-long anti-air engagement carried out by a US Navy destroyer in the Red Sea and an IDF air intercept of this attack hitting the news around a week ago.
Elsewhere, weโve seen a rise in antisemitic hate crimes and targeted attacks against Israelis/Jews worldwide, one recent example being a Jewish woman in France stabbed in her own home on 4th November, with a swastika drawn on her flat door by the suspect.
The US response to the Hamas attacks has probably been the most notable. At the time of writing, two carrier strike groups comprising the USS Gerald R Ford (CVN-78) and USS Dwight D Eisenhower (CVN-69) and their escorts are operating in the Eastern Mediterranean to the south of Cyprus, ready to deal with any overflow by pro-Iran groups โ their presence intended to act as a deterrent to Iran and its proxies more than anything else.
The rest of the international communityโs responses have been a mixed bag however. Turkeyโs President Erdogan (generally regarded as a bit of a rogue figure within NATO), has come out in support of Hamas and indicated willingness to intervene against Israel if the ground invasion of Gaza continues.
Germany, on the other hand, has announced plans to expel from the nation anyone (citizens or foreigners) who shows support for Hamas. The UK is somewhat of a middle ground in this, with politicians mostly showing support for Israelโs right to self-defence and calling for appropriate protections for innocent civilians in Gaza. However, allowing pro-Palestinian protests in major cities where dozens of people have been arrested so far for showing support of Hamas and the atrocities they committed on October 7th.
And herein lies the issue โ large parts of the world have often repeated โNever againโ, when referencing Nazi Germanyโs holocaust against the Jewish people during World War II. Many of those same nations are now either silent following the October 7th attacks or are backing the inevitable United Nations calls for a ceasefireโฆ something which Israel cannot realistically consider given Hamasโ own claims that it will carry out similar attacks again.
Israelโs only option is to destroy Hamas or face its own extinction โ the Hamas Charter literally states one of its primary aims is the destruction of the Jewish state, a fact not denied by most of the supporters at these pro-Palestine protests in major cities, where chants of โFrom the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free.โ
To be clear for those in any doubt, that chant refers to the idea that the โPalestineโ state would stretch from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Seaโฆ the entire area currently covered by Israel, Gaza and the West Bank.
The issue the West faces now is that whether it supports Israel or not, Hamasโ actions have stirred up major issues globally. The support seen for the group on the streets of London is an alarming example of how much support there still is for terrorist groups, whether they be โradical Islamist groupsโ or as the USA has recently been dealing with โwhite supremacist groupsโ.
Londonโs Metropolitan Police Service has had to make numerous arrests since the October 7th incident for offences under the Terrorism Act 2003, one of the main ones being Support for a Proscribed Terrorist Group (Section 12, Terrorism Act 2003). UK policing as a whole is working overdrive to try and deal with these now publicly visible threats, and one has to wonder how many of these now public supporters for Hamas and other groups were previously known to the intelligence services.
Back in 2021, I wrote two articles following the US and allied withdrawal from Afghanistan, warning that it was only a matter of time before weโd see serious terror threats in the West again. You can read those articles here:
Afghanistan โ What the withdrawal means for the world (Published 2nd September 2021).
The War on Terror โ Back to square one after 20 years? (Published 22nd September 2021)
In those articles, I pointed out that the political willpower to continue the fight on the ground to eradicate terrorist groups was gone, and that, more than anything else, was why the US and, subsequently, its allies announced withdrawal (and effectively defeat) from Afghanistan and the fight with the Taliban. I wasnโt alone at the time in warning that without a counter-terrorism presence in the region, groups like the Taliban, ISIL and al-Qaeda would have time to grow.
Weโve also seen major failings from Western governments when it comes to dealing with the sources of several of these groups. Iran, widely regarded as the number one state-sponsor of terrorism, has been allowed to get away with a lot of things, with dozens of nations, including the US, failing to uphold sanctions against the regime, well known for its human rights abuses. The United Nations has even given Iran a seat on its Human Rights Council while criticising Israelโs self-defence against terrorism, perhaps one of the strongest indications of the UNโs inability to fully function as a global force for good.
The concern now will be whether or not the Western world wakes up and acts. France has already had numerous attacks and bomb threats in the wake of the attack on Israel โ at one point, some six major French airports were closed due to simultaneous bomb threats. France bore the brunt of the wave of terror attacks across Europe between 2017 and 2020, suffering 26 different attacks with 24 dead and 77 wounded.
It also experienced one of Europeโs worst attacks back in November 2015 when a series of incidents saw 131 dead and 413 wounded. The UK itself faced 128 attacks between 2017 and 2020, resulting in 47 deaths and 320 wounded.
I fear we could see a return to these kinds of attacks soon. A former Hamas chief recently called for mobilisation of supporters around the world, stating: โTo all scholars who teach jihadโฆ to all who teach and learn, this is a moment for the application (of theories)”.ย
Western governments either need to clamp down hard on any show of support for Hamas and its genocidal beliefs or face the widespread consequences that will follow. One thing is clear โ whatever we do, the War on Terrorism is far from over.
Image by Alisdare Hickson, CC BY-SA 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons.
Random thoughts.
On another thread, I said that while a democracy should allow peaceful protest, there may be times when an atrocity has just happened & lives are still being lost, that a temporary ban on protests that could be seen as hate crime, could/should be justified. Six weeks should do it.
The asylum rules need to be updated. They should only be for the innocent, not the guilty. Those guilty of crimes against humanity, murder, terrorism, hijack, armed robbery & major drug dealing, should not be able to claim asylum.
While diversity & inclusion is a fine goal, it has been subverted to become appeasement of Islamofascists. Some moderate Muslim groups have despaired when police/councils, side with extremists rather than moderates, just to show how diverse & inclusive they are.
I hope we do not, but we may reach a stage of terrorism & intimidation, where we have to allow some civilians at risk, a small .22 pistol for self defence, as happened in Northern Ireland in the 1970s.
You are so correct in this but we are lead by donkeys, as someone once said, all at the upper level of our once great country. Nothing I believe will change.
And when do you think it stopped being a great country? It is still very much a great country and always will be. Compared to life in most countries, we don’t realise how good we have it, and take so much for granted. We have our problems, but generally, not as bad as other nations. ๐ฌ๐ง
Well said, America has it good too, I really donโt know what delusional period of having it better they are referring to. There are a lot of things to complain about but we also have to have perspective time, this Country is immeasurably a better place for most than it was when I grew up in the 60s and 70s even if there are aspects are rightfully worrying for the future.
1979
I think we may be glossing over the major differences/rifts between Shia and Sunni extremist groups here, because my understanding is that these matter. Of course, they will learn by observation- and I agree that theyโll be encouraged by the โlessonโ of longevity from Afghanistan.
But the article seems to lump the terror attacks in France and London (and more widely across Europe) with the actions of Hamas on the 7th October, and there I have to disagree. The former were Sunni extremists, mostly inspired by ISIS or Al Qaida, who have a very different (and often opposing) set of priorities to the main Shia terrorist groups. They receive their funding from different sources, which at least partly drives the inputs for actions differently too. Sunni-aligned extremists, at home or abroad are going to care very little for what is going on in Gaza, because they view (Shia) Palestinians as effectively heretics- as bad as Israel/the west. They will not have wider support from less hard-line groups, either within Islam or wider society.
On the flip side the Shia factions do see some level of wider support- largely due to the terrible and long-running conditions in Gaza, Lebanon, Yemen, and elsewhere that end up on our screens. I think at least some of what weโve seen in terms of those sporting Hamas flags and suchlike. I donโt agree with Hamas at all, but I also donโt agree with Israel either- as far as Iโm concerned the leadership of both have a toxic relationship that requires active hostilities with each other to survive. That brings about suffering among the civilians on both sides, and justified sympathy from the wider public. My point being that dealing with support of terrorists in this instance is going to require a different approach to separate it from the legitimate concern for Palestinians.
Part of that could be stronger criticism of the bad behaviour of Israel; if the British government is seen as addressing the legitimate humanitarian concerns of protesters, then theyโll be less active and leave the hardliner terrorist supporters front and centre and more easily addressed by law enforcement. But apparently that is not appropriate.
Iโm not disagreeing with the article, just wary of a one-size-fits-all approach to addressing related but fundamentally different problems.
Thankyou for that considered discussion. what I would say is that although there are very significant tensions between Shia and Sunni groups, the studies show that there is no discernible difference between the extremist groups and their motivations, the motivations are historically based around the simple belief that any and all consecrated Muslim lands must be Governed by a Muslim government using Muslim law, this is their indisputable truth. They also all believe that the crusader west ( US and puppets) as well as the communist east are all controlled by a world wide Zionist conspiracy, this includes all the apparatus of international lawโฆtherefore their one guiding light it the jihad of the sword until all Muslim lands are under the government of Muslim laws.
There are some key differences in modes of operation..Sunni extremist groups will tend to operate in a constant level of warfare so Sunni groups
โtend to operate in a continuous, midโtoโhigh intensity manner, seeing war against infidels and apostates as a perennial condition featuring overlapping waves.โ Thomas f lynch 2008.
where as Shia groups
โOutside of an ongoing and seemingly openโended campaign against Israel, terrorist attacks by Shiโa groups have by and large featured discrete terror campaigns tethered to state and organizational objectivesโ Thomas f lynch 2008.
Lynchs paper ( Sunni and Shiโa terrorism: Differences that matter) is a must read around the war on terror and the key operational differences between Shia and Sunni terror groups ( one of the big differences is that Iran Sponsors and controls the Shia groups and they are therefore a tool for Iranian geostrategic goals).
In regards to Israel I think we have to consider a number of factors and really understand some of the root problemsโฆand also why the west has always been involvedโฆfor more than 2000 yearsโฆso saying let them get on with it is a bit of an abrogation of duty as well as a bad geopolitical move..we do not want a radical Islamic state sitting at one end of the medโฆitโs not that far awayโฆlook on the mapsโฆthe Middle East and eastern med is one of the key areas of the world.
so history wiseโฆI will not go into details but essentially the Levant and specifically the holy lands have been a hotbed of ethic cleansing for 2000 years..and the majority of the ethic cleansing was done by Muslim and Christian kingdoms..mainly again the Jewish populationโฆitโs what causes the Jewish population on the levant to collapse and the diaspora of the Jewish peopleโฆthe final historical point is very much about today in that the radical Islamic groups preach that any conquered lands by the Islamic kingdoms are anointed Muslims lands and that meeting with Zionism has meant a whole heap of human misery..but also think about what their view of anointed Muslim lands means. that one for a bit is worrying as the conquered lands of the Muslim kingdoms could be interpreted as Spain, Portugal, Malta, the Balkans, Crimea, caucuses, Sicily, bulgariaโฆ
So letโs look at where the extremist will take their jihad, Iโm quoting from the Yale law school archives and not directly from Hamasโฆthe covenant of Hamas ( as well as Hezbollah and other extremists groups) is a xenophobic, paranoid religious diatribe of hate..but I actually think itโs important people understand itโฆso when they chant from the river to the sea they need to know what they are supportingโฆ
โTime extent of the Islamic Resistance Movement: By adopting Islam as its way of life, the Movement goes back to the time of the birth of the Islamic message, of the righteous ancestor, for Allah is its target, the Prophet is its example and the Koran is its constitution. Its extent in place is anywhere that there are Moslems who embrace Islam as their way of life everywhere in the globe. This being so, it extends to the depth of the earth and reaches out to the heaven.โ Covenant of Hamas 1988 article 5
โThe Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?
This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.โ covenant of Hamas 1988 article 11.
If we left Israel to it would the extremists leave us aloneโฆ.nope apart from the fact they also believe a fair bit of NATO are consecrated muslim lands..they also believe that we and the rest of the world are puppets of the Zionists and controlled by the Zionist
โ For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.
You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.โ
โThe imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East, support the enemy with all their might, in money and in men. These forces take turns in doing that. The day Islam appears, the forces of infidelity would unite to challenge it, for the infidels are of one nationโ.
finally is it possible to have a two state solution and peace, sadly there is not a hope of peace with Islamic extremism groups..the existence of Israel and the none Muslim world is an affront to the extremist religious viewโฆ
โInitiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. “Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know.”
Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?โ
The next bit of the tragic puzzle is Zionism..this was born and created by the Christian European states in the late 19th and early 20th centuries due to a very significant rise in antisemitism..the Jewish populations or European had lived with progroms for a thousand years..but the concerted raise in antisemitism left the Jewish people feeling like something awful was going to occur ( how right they were)โฆthis was what triggered Zionismโฆafter the First World War when the Ottoman Empire was dismantled by the western powers Britain was given a mandate by the League of Nations to create Arab and Jewish states in Palestine..it was not until the end of world war to and the Holocaust that this was pushed throughโฆ
But although the Jewish Zionists moderated their call ( all the historic Jewish kingdoms in a new Israel) and accepted have the pie..the Palestinians and Arab states would not..even though the Arab states covered all the lands of Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, they would not accept the Jews getting part of Palestine..and the moment the British gave up on the mandate ( many would say because they did not want to fall out with the Arab states..over a few hundred thousand Jews) the Arab states invaded to grab all of Palestine and destroyed Israel..that has been the position of all the Arab states until the David accordsโฆbut Hamas, Iran Hezbollah and until very very recently fatah donโt recognise Israelโs right to exist or a two state solution and so in the end the population of Israel have up on the idea as well..leading to the government they have now which is reactionary and not great..
if we look at the West Bank and what itโs done there itโs creates a rod for its own back..the moment fatah went for the peaceful option Isreal should have Im braces it..supported the West Bank to full statehood..removed its illegal settlers ectโฆit was a strategic blunder to do that..
Gaza on the other hand is a different fishโฆIsreal did pull out of Gaza..removed all the settlers and aid started pouring in..then the population of Gaza voted in HamasโฆHamas the extremist group with 30,000 fighters who one aim is to destroy Israel..Hamas immediately started to attack Israel and in response Isreal moved to an extreme containment strategy..sealing off its boarders as well as enacting a forma blockade of the sea ( which is by the way legal under the laws of the sea)โฆwhat is really tragic for GAZA is that Hamas also want to overthrow the Egyptian government and support Sinai province ( IS) so the Egyptians effectively sealed their side of the boarder as wellโฆcreating the largest prison on earth for Hamasโฆthat strategy failed catastrophically last month.
Good post, very informed. The particular quote below has been true in modern times elsewhere in the world. The Major of Jakarta was jailed for daring to suggest that a Muslim should vote for a non-Muslim, which prompted Blasphemy calls against him. It would suggest that a Muslim voting for Non Muslim is also committing Blasphemy. Which would make politics irrelevant if only 1 party has entered a Muslim candidate.
simple belief that any and all consecrated Muslim lands must be Governed by a Muslim government using Muslim law
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/09/jakarta-governor-ahok-found-guilty-of-blasphemy-jailed-for-two-years
Good explanation what we are involved in.
Time for a lie down Jonathan ๐
Nope there is far to much to readโฆ๐คalthough I can lie down and read at the same time.
Well take it easy. I rely on your erudition. Otherwise I would have to resort to chatgpt ๐
Donโt listen to the robots Paul, they want to destroy us all. Although their grammar, spelling and typing skills are far superior to mineโฆโฆโฆ.๐ง
This AI isnโt all its cracked up to beโฆ.shown a family photo it generated an error message saying I couldnโt be in two places at once โฆthe โother meโ was my adult son. And the immigration passport face scanner was @@dy useless. My border collie could identify me from a hundred yards ๐
So it will be a war against slightly shite AIโฆ.thatโs why terminator kept losingโฆhe was unstoppable but got beaten by a 20 something girl.
๐Appreciated. Thanks
Wrong. If you bury your head in the sand you can’t see or hear and will eventually suffocate. Read a critical book on (militant) Islam and come back when you have clued yourself up
Thanks, but as a Catholic Christian I think I am well enough clued up on the limitations and deceptions of Islam, and the risks it poses to western civilisation. ๐
OK that’s good to hear.
Hi Jonathan, apologies for the late reply, and really appreciate the time you took in responding.
As I said, I don’t disagree with the conclusions of your article, I’m just mindful that the practical application between dealing with Sunni and Shia Muslim extremists -in the UK at least- is in my mind different. I apologise if my implication was that you weren’t aware of the differences (and similarities), that wasn’t the intent and clearly isn’t accurate.
The additional background and context you’ve given is helpful, and more studied than I am. I’ve read a couple of “popular” books on the general subject, but none of the peer reviewed studies you mention. As you say, it’s unfortunately the case that negotiation or some kind of peace with extremist elements of either Shia or Sunni Islam is made impossible by their beliefs. It will remain a painful reality without a peaceful solution in our lifetimes, I expect.
What I more had in mind are the marginal and the “followers”- those who are not as committed or newly committed or not yet committed to the more extremist end of the spectrum. In Africa and the middle east, recruitment and the large percentage of AQIM, Al Shabab and the others are often frustrated and impoverished young men who have no other hope or meaning for themselves; there are a number of studies that show pretty clear correlations between low literacy, low employment, poverty, and weak/corrupt government and extremism. You can also see that in the hard right recruitment of white men in similar circumstances in the US and Europe.
More specifically in the UK, there’s also the sympathy for the underdog- in the case of supporting Shia causes there’s the ongoing conflict in Yemen, Syria, and Gaza. It is easy to find pictures and reports of Saudi war crimes, as well as Israeli ones, on civilians. It is easy to feel outrage, and to end up aligning oneself with organisations (like HAMAS) who are often worse than the ones you’re protesting about. This is what I see in these Palestine protests: A small “hardcore” pro-HAMAS extremist element alongside a larger protest against what they see as repression of vulnerable civilians. If you can remove the problem for the less committed majority (poverty and poor opportunities in Africa, perceived UK government inaction over war crimes in Palestine), then you remove the mass and can focus on the smaller remainder who won’t negotiate.
Hopefully that makes a bit more sense, but enjoyed your article and your response to my post.
Hi Joe, yes I agree that in the end the only way to deal with extremism ( of any variety) is remove its breeding and recruiting grounds and we know from experience the more you marginalise and disenfranchise the greater the chance people will develop extremism views..after all we know than if you marginalise an entire nation itโs likely that entire nation will fall to extremism, Germany being the classic exampleโฆ.the problem is you can also get that rise in extremism without the marginalisation..fascism was after all born in Italy, a nation that was not in anyway marginalised at the time and was infact on the rise, Iran was going through a renaissance right at the point it fell into the depths of extremismโฆ.but a basic premise of the more you marginalise the greater that the chance extremism will take hold is not a bad one to start with, but knowing that extremism does not always rise from marginalised populations..the Jews have suffered ethic cleansing from many many populations that were in control and had all the power.
I think in the end those in the middle need to be far more aware of the voices of the extremists of all types and not just dismiss but take very seriouslyโฆIsreal is a fine exampleโฆitโs a nation that is on a knife edge because in different ways it ignored the extremists, both Zionist and Islamist..the Islamist extremists it thought it could just lock them away and hide them behind walls of steel and guns..basically sealing of GAZA and the problemโฆ.itโs own Zionist extremists, itโs failed to control, which has destabilised the West Bank and never allowed it to become an example of what a two state solution could be.
Two things should have happens a long time ago:
Isreal should have, completely disengaged in the West Bank. Removed its settlements and threw all the help it could towards Fatah creating a stable state..at the same timeโฆ
Hamas actually needed root and branch management by the whole international community a long time ago ( as an example Egypt has done the same as Israel and just locked the whole problem behind another wall of steel, as Hamas hates the Egyptian government almost as much as it does Israel ) the moment Gaza voted in Hamas this whole situation was alway going to happenโฆitโs just Hamas have had 17 years to turn Gaza into a fortress and a death trap for either the IDF or the civilian populationโฆ.tragically but unsurprisingly Israel has picked the civilian population to suffer over its own armed forcesโฆ this is a Geopolitical mistake on the part of Israel, that Hamas has forcesโฆ.Hamas cannot destroy Israel, but if they bog down the IDF in Gaza, force the IDF into creating a hell scapeโฆget the Arab nations enraged, drain support from western nations..then Hezbollah and other state actors would have a good crack at itโฆmost people do forget Israel is a tiny nation one small step away from destruction..as its geostrategic position is the worst any nation could face.
Jonathan, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge, a very interesting read.
Im sure the Elite’s who lead this world by there design will recieve there karma one day, just a question of time !
It’s a challenge- undermining free speech for reasons other than a direct and severe threat to national security doesn’t seem appropriate to me. But then if we were fighting a conventional war against another state I doubt that protesting on behalf of the enemy would be deemed acceptable. Does diplomatic support to an ally fighting a non-state enemy meet the same threshold?
That’s an excellent question: it’s far harder to get laws onto the books in situations like this than getting them off again.
What with the recent restrictions already put on the right to protest, not to mention some of the stuff going on the books in terms of general freedom of speech and causing offense, I’m a shade concerned frankly. Which feels really weird and conspiracy-theorist to be saying…
I think you are right to be concerned. The Tory peer and former party chair Baroness Warsi has called the Home Secretary โdangerous and divisiveโ in her comments on the pro Palestine marches: she also said some in government โproject as patriots but they are arsonistsโ. After the election there will be a vacancy for leader of the conservative party. Suella Baverman is trying to attract support by being provocative and divisive. I heard Dorothy Byrne on Sky say that Ms Bravermanโs comments were โrepulsiveโ. In the immortal words of Terry Woganโฆme, me, me. Iโm pleased to see that good people are seeing through Ms Baverman and calling it out. We should trust to police to do their job this weekend.
You should be ashamed of yourself, what about a British Intifada after the profanation of Cenotaph and the next 11 November Hamas support march for the same day of Commemoration of Veterans and pay respects to those that died for the country?
These are clear provocations to show Islamist power. To not talk about the coward service much of police – thankfully not all – have made.
Is there nothing anymore sacred in West for you?
At the risk of repeating myself: Suella Bravermanโs โrighteous indignationโ is naked self interest – electioneering – as are the comments of those ministers of the government who are supporting her. One of the two women I quoted is a Muslim and the other was educated at a convent school yet they have both seen through her hypocritical self interest. Go figure. The proposition that members of the cabinet are wiser and more patriotic than the people who elected them is at best fanciful and at worst frankly insulting.
No, I dont think its about Braverman’s self advancement, that’s being cynical. Its about the alliance of the Marxist left and Islamists coalescing to cause maximum disruption to 11/11 and the narrative behind that.
I think she sees it clearly, whereas others do but want to duck out.
She is saying what a lot of people think.
That’s a view of course. I don’t personally know any Islamists or Marxists so I can’t say whether they could in a sort of autocratic alliance. I don’t see Suella as some kind of gifted Mystic Meg; rather I see her as a one woman autocrat. She is gunning for Rishi and will pull him down as a lioness pulls down a young antelope. He was a compromise candidate for leader. If he doesn’t sack her she will harry him until he calls an election. If he sacks her my bet is the cabinet and tory party will split and fall. The Tories will lose the election, leaching core support to Reform. She will stand for leader and position herself as saviour, unifying the party to the right
She is a predator, Sunak is prey.
HAHAHA, now 11th November is over you look like a fool. It was a bunch of right wing hooligans who were rioting at the Cenotaph, meanwhile on the other side of London there was a peaceful protest for Palestine. Plenty of videos of it if you don’t believe me…
As usual Cruella Braverman stirring up divisive hatred amongst the simple minded in a desperate attempt to stay in power. She’s dangerous and needs to go.
Why are Bravemans comments any less divisive than Labour ads saying Rushi supported paedophiles not being jailed. These are politician we’re talking about no matter which side of the house they sit they’re divisive because they want be in power.
They’re not divisive. They just cut uncomfortably close to the bone for the complacent establishment. It is demonstrably true that a double standard exists in the interpretation of law. Her calling that reality out is an implicit attack on the direction of political travel accepted by them – and they don’t like it.
It looks and feels much like the politics of the USA. The so called right, in truth a much broader coalition nowadays, are repulsed by the weaponisation of the institutions of the state against non-conformists or “enemies” of the Democratic party.
I think we are seeing similar fault lines emerge here, which may be difficult in the short term to deal with, but in the longer term probably need exposing and addressing forthrightly.
So in your opening statement you saying Rushi a family man supports paedophiles not going to jail. I don’t support either party but that’s a stretch tbh.so i don’t think you can differentiate between the 2 these adds and comments are to seed devision. Its clear both parties are flogging outdated ideologies that are no longer fit for purpose. Hence, they’re both unfit to govern, again as non aligned that’s very obvious.
You have a negative interpretation of what I wrote. You wrote:
“Why are Bravemans comments any less divisive than Labour ads saying Rushi supported paedophiles not being jailed”
I said, those comments are not divisive. Since you were referring to Bravemans words that’s what I responded to – not Labour’s.
I don’t believe her comments are divisive. I didn’t pass comment on Labour’s words.
Personal view but I see Remembrance as one of the few occasions when the country comes together to say thankyou to those who sacrificed themselves for our freedoms. I take a dim view of making career advancing political capital out of it. There are plenty of other topics to choose. Ms Baverman seems intent on generating conflict between Musims and Jews and splitting the Tory party – so she can remake it in her own image of course.
I think the issue here is what are they actually protesting aboutโฆpeace in Palestine and Israeli and a settled two state solutionโฆ.well thatโs our governments view as well as the view of the UN so you can hardly stop thatโฆ.if on the other hand they are showing support for Hamasโฆby that fact they are supporting a proscribed terror organisation as well as calling for the destruction of Israel which is against laws on anti semitism ( to support Hamas is to support the destruction of the Jewish state and the ethic cleansing of the the Jewish people in the levant)โฆ..chanting from the river to the sea is basically doing thisโฆ..the big problem is most people Simply will not look at what they are supportingโฆ.the free Palestine movement is one of thoseโฆfor me I would happy March in a peace March that called for and chanted โa two state solution for Palestine nowโโฆbut I would never chant free Palestine, as historically Palestine covers the lands of Israel, Gaza, the West Bank, a chunk of Jordan and Syriaโฆ.and by chanting that I think you are crossing a bit of a line around Israelโฆ but the โwhole river to the seaโ is pure hate speech.
Funny how when I alluded to this anti-British mindset woven into the DNA of recent imports and their sycophantic support base , I was castigated as a Racist. (despite the fact , my parents were imports to the UK) I spoke from personal experience and yet those who believe everything they are told by political, religious and cultural activists have not only berated me, the other day one them stated that I should be deported. (So much for been nice to everyone eh!) Well the other day we saw Police attacked with fireworks at Trafalgar sq ,
There was a video yesterday of either Rochdale or Bolton war memorial where a bloke replaced all the Poppy wreaths which had been tossed aside and replaced with a Palestine flag.
There’s a nice video of a load of free free Palestine screaming inside the Tube, when one decides to berate a man for wearing a poppy, huge mistake as the poppy wearer decides to show the idiot the error of his ways with a few punches, today there’s a video during the rounds of the War memorial in Edinburgh where some idiot has set the poppy wreaths free by setting fire to them.
And we still have a week to go before the 11th, so I expect to see a load more intolerance and disrespect by the woke crowd and those who work at Alis snack bar.
Update
Edinburgh war memorial was last year
To be honest Iโve never seen anything like that, but then I spend most of my time in a leafy middle class village in the south eastโฆwhere the biggest issue revolves around what real ale has the pub got casked.
Well yes, it’s an inner city problem.
Where, of course, most of the immigrants to this country over the last 50 years have settled. So that is where the militant elements amongst them will be.
In time, the leafy middle class villages and towns will be next, as another million arrive over the next 4 years, And the next million after that, and on, and on, including a quota amongst them of those who won’t integrate but have their own loyalty elsewhere.
Which results in what for society in this nation?
As everyone whistles in the wind and pretends there isn’t a problem brewing.
Just like the article title, complacency.
Until it is too late.
Where do you draw the line between the right to have a protest march and trampling over the traditions of the host country that takes you.
I make it a policy not to go to cities to be honest..horrible placesโฆgive me leafy middle England any-day of the weekโฆeven little affluent cities like Brighton are more than I want to deal withโฆ.never been much of a lover of multiculturalism to be honest, itโs essentially a road to ghettoism on a grand scaleโฆintegration is the only sustainable model for a nation.
our entire culture is based around ( or should be based around ) the freedom of the individual, not the freedom of groups, as the freedom of groups can and does massively impact on the freedom of the individualโฆand at the bottom of most of our tension in society is the tension between individual freedom and the freedom of groups, when push comes to shove I always air on the side of the freedom of the individual over the freedom of groups ( so a womanโs right to freedom over a groups right that would impact on womenโs freedom).
Its is fascinating how people want to escape the 3rd countries then arrive here and want to create little piece of that 3rd world country here. Anyone speaking up against it is labelled and cancelled.
Yes. It’s a special word that the left use that destroys all dissent “you must be a racist.” Works every time. Anyone who says they want to preserve their own incredible culture in Britain and the West is automatically cancelled and called an evil monster. What is happening to Britain, Ireland and many other countries is abhorrent and it;’s happening faster and faster every year. You will be replaced and the laws will change against you, and you will be forced to conform to their cultural norms not your own. All to be burned on the sacred leftist altar of multiculturalism. Putting head in the sand won’t work. I know it’s a scary prospect and many people are afraid and want to deny it, and many want to wish it away but it’s too late for that.
Let’s not forget the label populist, as soon as politician becomes popular for challenging the status quo they are labelled populist. But the reality is we live in a democracy the the most popular politician should win.
Blame those on the far left who have stirred up the grievances that grow identity politics. What we need is to continue a unified national identity which served the country well. Identity Politics is corrosive and divides people more and more into angry groups.
To be honest I think identity politics has been something stirred up pretty equally by the far left and far rightโฆthey use what are valid grievances, that need to be heard and discussed..such has the left behind and disenfranchised very poor white what was once working class communities but are now an unskilled underclass without hope or the afro Caribbean communities again poor disenfranchisedโฆthen these far left and right essentially rabble rousers use the void left by mainstream disengagement and the grievances for their own endsโฆ.unfortunately when the main stream does not engage the fringes will use it for their own gainโฆthey are also great at using others as the issue which is where you get the rise of identity politicsโฆ.this can then tear a society apartโฆI think we also have to understand that we have enemies who have been using political and social warfare against the westโฆRussia and to an even great extreme china have been attacking and weakening the west via identity politics for a couple of decades nowโฆ..their goal is to sow discord so the western nations are politically weakerโฆsimply look a MAGA..that is a political warfare dream for the enemies of the westโฆ.
As the new Argentinian President says “every need has a right, but there are many needs and they cannot all take precedence.” This guy is going to be a force to reckon with. Watch his interview on youtube it’s incredibly enlightening coming from a socialist country that has had its’ economy practically destroyed by the left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0-8tAtJStM&t=1364s
โEvery need has a right but they cannot all take precedenceโ very true indeed. Something that many people refuse to accept and will only see the world in regards to โtheirโ right.
Personally my view is that all rights are nothing more that a cultural construct and are actually an illusion ( there is no right to lifeโฆjust ask those dying in a famine).
I prefer to think that society is infact bound by a set of obligationsโฆif you look at the history of civilisation they were not constructed on rights but on obligations..
so we all have obligations to our family, friends, community and wider society and our society, community, friends and family have obligations to usโฆif you see it as a vast web of obligations..instead of a vast array of competing rights then society makes a lot more sense.
100% But is it too late?
The irony is Gaza controlled by Hamas was anything but free. Try being openly LBGTQ etc or holding an anti Hamas rally in Gaza an see where you end up.
Equally sadly the population of GAZA voted for and supported HAMAS (and the majority still support) an essentially genocidal group of religious driven neo Nazis.
Tick that box
๐
Correct. They burn gays alive. They are not liberal they are brutal religious fascists and there is no give and take.
Well now rememberance day is over… It was a bunch of right wing hooligans who were rioting at the Cenotaph, meanwhile on the other side of London there was a peaceful protest for Palestine. Plenty of videos of it if you donโt believe meโฆ
As usual Cruella Braverman stirring up divisive hatred amongst the simple minded in a desperate attempt to stay in power. Sheโs dangerous and needs to go.
Anyone who stands up for your country’s values, heritage and principles is “right wing” eh? Not patriots but evil right wingers. I argue that the evil ones are the left wing supremacists who are literally selling your heritage and unique British exceptionalism down the drain. You and your self loathing ilk are the enemy of your own country, real, modern day 5th columnists.
Right wing yes, because they were being stirred up by the right wing media, in turn being stirred up by Cruella Braverman. Anyone who knows right wing media such as the daily fail for the drivel that it is, wouldn’t have joined these stupid “patriotic protests”.
It’s strange that the “patriots” were the only ones who were disrupting the cenotaph area that day isn’t it?
I don’t understand how a peaceful protest (one of our fundamental rights) on the other side of London is “selling our heritage and unique British values down the drain”. I would say they were in fact exercising their “unique British values”.
Who said I’m a self loathing ilk? Putting words into my mouth much?
I love this country and it’s values which is exactly why I support the freedom to protest, and is also exactly why I loathe the likes of Cruella Braverman who goes against everything this country has ever stood for. Luckily she’s at least gone from cabinet now…
Jonny, why do you refer to Suella Braverman as “Cruella” Braverman? What did she do that was cruel? Please be specific in your answer and don’t change the subject please.
And just so you know, we know that you leftists like your slogans “from the river to the sea” “black lives matter” and so on, and strange names for Politicians you hate is part of that. We also know you are surface level thinkers who like meme’s and slogans but not any detail, no below the surface data, no historical facts. Slogans. So if you will, tell me and others what was “cruel” or was it that it sounds catchy and you can chant it and sound clever?
You’re hilarious, thank you for giving me a laugh.
I’ll ignore the part where you didn’t respond to anything I said…
And give some things that Cruella has done and said…
“Homelessness is a lifestyle choice”, along with plans to deter charities from giving tents to homeless people.
The fact that her dream is “to have a front page on the telegraph with a plane taking off to Rwanda”. I mean come on that’s pretty sad isn’t it? In fact she said it was her “obsession”.
Describing the Palestine marches as”hate marches” and inciting hooligans to go and disrupt the cenotaph on remembrance Sunday.
I won’t lie your response is a bit pathetic, putting yet more words into my mouth and not responding to a single thing I said. “Black lives matter” and “from the river to the sea” are slogans for social causes which are supported by people across the political spectrum. I don’t really support the latter though as I’m aware of it’s connotations.
“surface level thinkers who like memeโs and slogans but not any detail, no below the surface data, no historical facts. Slogans.” That exact thing could be turned around and said to many people on the right, don’t try and pretend that isn’t the case.
Suella is cruel and so I will call her Cruella.
You seem like a bitter old man that just laps up right wing propaganda and uses it to fuel your incoherent ramblings about groups of people you don’t like. If I’m a surface level thinker I hate to think what that makes you.
Google:
for the twitter video
But Johnny and his media (bbc) said it didn’t happen.
That sounds horrible and they should be held accountable, but one or two isolated incidents doesn’t compare to the carnage that was being caused by the hooligans at the cenotaph on remembrance sunday…
Clearly we are witnessing the alleged benfits of multiculuralism by permitting a totally alien miltant and I hesitate to call it a religion as its total reason for existing is the subversion of all and every other belief system and is by defition is the antithesis to Democracy as it imposes the Quoran as superior and dominant to all else and we must be servient to it.
The West is weak and vulnerable because it has abandoned the faith which created it. Free market liberal democracy, secular consumerism and soapy multiculturalism cannot provide defensive barriers to contain Islamic expansionism and missionary ambition. On its current trajectory Islamic expansionism will lead to our society experiencing a joyless shut down which will make the covid lockdown look like a day out at Alton Towers. Neither the fascist nor the communist flavours of autocracy are the answer.
100% accurate.
Exactly. Putting our heads in the sand is no working. We are soft and will be erased faster than we think.
As this is the ME message board, do a search on:
“”A Hezbollah sniper was cheerfully shooting at the IDF on the Lebanese-Israeli border but then this happened…””
I wonder if he was taken out with the Israel Iron Sting (120 mm guided mortar munition)
I seriously worry about the northern border, Hezbollah are not to be taken lightly and are exactly the same extremists who would kill every Israeli they could get their hands onโฆtrouble is they have between 50,000 to 100,000 fighters..a big supply of ballistic missiles ( they are saving for their big day) a few hundred thousand guided and unguided artillery rockets, More artillery tubes than most European armies, anti tank missiles by the 1000s a good number of anti air missiles and even around 100 anti ship missiles.. now in normal times the IDF could easily manage Hezbollah..but they are presently engaged in a massive urban warfare campaign fighting 30,000 dug in nutters in Gazaโฆthey also have to ensure they have their boarders with Jordan, Syrian and Egypt coveredโฆitโs quite possible that Hezbollah could overrun the IDF and go on a killing spree like the world has not seen since the 1994 Rwanda genocideโฆremember Israel is a very very small and densely populated county..the IDF have no space to swap for timeโฆHezbollah will go on a genocidal killing spree if they get past the IDF so the IDF know they could not let any of them passโฆthere would be no space or place for modern Manoeuvre warfare the, IDF would have to stand or die..no real option to retreatโฆin the case of a Hezbollah attack the US would respond..thatโs why they have two carriers in place..the trouble is then Iran will stir up the Arab world an we may see countries like Jordan with a very poor or limited choice of actionsโฆas their populations would explode if they did not support against Israel and the U.SโฆI personally think Hezbollah are playing a waiting game..letting the Arab world stew a bit more before pressing the big red regional war button.
It seems you are not alone in being worried about Israelโs northern border – we have withdrawn our ambassador and embassy staff.
Israel have keeping responding to every Heezbollah attack. Today several attacks again.
Heezbollah already admitted more than 60 combatant losses.
The media has usual doing an horrible job and once again seems a detriment to get information on what is happening.
I honestly don’t care at this point.
Neither Palestine nor Israel have ever even just apologised (worse, glorifying the terrorists) for terrorising us when we were trying to keep the peace there, so they all deserve none of our time and attention.
Google:
In UK can you, with one’s face covered, verbally assault, threaten and insult police officers without arrest?
and watch the video
It seems our oft criticised racist, misogynist and homophobic police have the patience of a saintโฆ.funny that.
They have much patience to the Extreme Left and Islamist side.
Morning Farouk, indeed they do. Like most people in this country I will attend a Remembrance service this weekend. There was a price paid for peace and freedom we enjoy. The principle of sacrifice is the very foundation of our national values and in fact, of western culture. Those who are being allowed their protest for Palestine would do well to remember who bought the freedom they enjoy.
As regards extremists I trust our intelligence services to keep us safe.
Why do left wing supremacists put all things into groupings? Is it collectivism? Not all police are as bad as you described. You are the enemy of your country. You pray for the destruction of your country but you will be stopped. People are waking up to who you are and what your plans are.
Time for a lie down and a nice cuppa there Rob. Take it easy:-)
I almost got killed in 1982 for this country. I’ve got skin in the game because of my sacrifices and those of my friends who were killed on Coventry – and cannot bear to see what you are allowing to happen to Britain. I watched young men in their prime drowning when they leapt into the frigid sea off of the side of Coventry. Some of them 18 years old. Many died and for what? For this version of Britain? A nation teetering on the edge of being an Islamic republic? Sharia law? No go zones?
Not sure that we are anywhere close to being an Islamic Republic yet, but you have a point. We honour the sacrifice of the fallen and wounded once a year but really, as the government exemplifies, we are still hooked on a ‘what’s in it for me’ punishment culture. Keeping shouting; change will come soon.
Thanks Paul. As Kennedy once said, and this appears to be forgotten โask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country.โ That sentiment has been completely lost on both sides of the Atlantic, as many people rush to declare their so-called identity politics victimhood and expectations around entitlement. In short: give me stuff that youโve earned because Iโm a victim of the system.
Change cannot come soon enough – but I agree it is coming.
it’s RT … very subtle and effective. Matches the skill of UK propaganda in WWII.
People like this give anti-imperialism a bad name. Where’s Salisbury/Wellesley/Cobden when you need them?
If you want mass migration, keep it limited to friendly populations- Botswana, Ghana, Kerala (we need traditional Malabarian Christians to regenerate our decaying native religions), Hong Kong (with CCP agents screened out and deported), and CANZAC. …but then, that wouldn’t be “mass” migration, would it?
I can’t imagine Gurkhas behaving like this at the Cenotaph.
The implication that these protests support Hamas is stretching the point somewhat. They are based on the ‘non-combatant’ consequences of the IDF’s actions. Though this is made more complicated as the terrorists, like all of them, are often indistinguishable from the civilian population. Since Hamas is supposedly trying to protect and protest the historic treatment of Palestinians the debate is far more nuanced than the media tend to portray. Especially as Britain’s also historic post empire role has helped create the causes of the disputes. Most of which are exacerbated by the Israelis. They rightly deplore and fight against terrorism, but cannot seem to link their own actions in making the situation worse. Still less see the very clear parallels with apartheid, genocide, ghettoisation with Warsaw in WW2 being an example. All Israel is doing is embedding a deep sense of injustice and desire for revenge, which Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are exploiting. All those people have historic rights and links to the disputed territory and they have to learn how to get along with each other instead of this interminable round of tit-for-tat, eye for an eye so called militant diplomacy they cannot get themselves out of.
Yes, but if Hamas had gone to Israel to do a deal, it would have been a darn sight better than what is happening now to Gaza. Look at the deals Israel has done with the Arab Gulf states over the last few years. Gaza could have had that, if Hamas was willing to be reasonable. Trade, tourism, technology all thrown away, by Hamas refusal to recognise Israel.
Of course. Hamas as an entity are not interested in anything other removal of the state of Israel. But if Israel had been more respectful of Palestinians it would have been much harder for Hamas to get where it is. It champions and represents the Palestinians in the absence of any other. It is all very well expecting an indiginous population to reject terrorism but they are often cowed and rarely if ever in a position to do anything. That is why Israel’s actions provide the very conditions that Hamas exploits. To have friendly relations with a neighbouring country or large internal identifiable minority or otherwise groups it is necessary to be friendly and accommodating of the differences. Anything else allows dissent to grow and become embedded in the culture.
I think you have got the cart before the horse. Once Hamas got elected once, it has not risked another election. So ordinary Palestinians don’t get a say on if they still want Hamas. People blame Israel for the blockade, but Hamas uses anything, no matter how innocent, to make weapons, bunkers, tunnels, to attack Israel.
Israel is willing to make deals with Middle East Muslim Countries. Hamas is not willing to do a deal with Israel. The blame is 100% with Hamas.
I think perhaps you haven’t really read what I said! Nothing to do with carts and horses, but if you are being pedantic the history of the area goes back to our Empire decisions post WW1. While the deplorable actions of Hamas certainly initiated the latest conflict it is not helpful to see it in isolation. Yes Hamas has a policy of eliminating Israel. But what I was pointing out that it is the recent historic actions of the Israelis that feeds the Hamas narrative. Israel is as much therefore to blame as anyone else. The Palestinians have been treated like second class citizens for the last 70 years or so so they have legitimate grievances which allows Hamas to use as justification for its actions. If only they would learn to live together politically but they haven’t done that for the last 3,000 years. Palestine was there before Israel. All those distinct peoples come from that region so they all have a right to be there, but if they don’t get along then no amount of force is really going to change the habits and groevances of centuris.
The Jewish state was there before Palestine (2000 years ago). The UK got out in 1947, because we were broke. If the Muslim states had accepted partition, this mess would not still be upon us. They did not. They tried to crush Israel & failed. Since then, the Muslims have had 2 choices, live In peace & do deals with Israel, or choose violence & try to destroy Israel.
Israel is happy to do deals with Muslim states that recognise it. That is the bright spot. Hamas could have had such a deal if they wanted, but on 7th October they chose violence. Israel is not to blame. You should not blame the victim. The fault lies 100% with Hamas. Put that in your Russian/English translation software.
Your response shows you haven’t read what I said. I did NOT blame the Israeli victims. And your stupid and unhelpfyul comment at the end shows you haven’t put any thought into things, making facile and childish assumptions. So think about it. Does pushing Palestinians out of their lands, building settlements, ghettoising them in a narrow strip of land show that Israel is willing to accommodate the people who were there before Israel was created? No. Yes thyey may have bent over to try and be reasonable, and obviously it has not been very successful, but Israel’s actions are the very things that Hamas has seized on to justify its own actions. If you get pushed into a corner with no prospects, no jobs, etc are you going to think kindly of the ones doing the pushing? Of course not. If Israel didn’t mistreat the Palestinians as they have done they would be more likely to reject Hamas, instead of allowing them to do what they are doing.
I am curious. Are you a Guardian reading woke trendy? Or a Russian/Chinese/Iranian troll? There is something about your posts, I haven’t figured out yet.
Instead of inventing fanciful and frankly slanderous assumptions I suggest you think holistically about the situation. Engaging brain before responding works equally well here. In essence what I have merely pointed out, and not favouring either side is look at the problem as a whole. If the Israelis embark on a system of apartheid, which they have done especially since 1967, if not before, then what they are doing is fuellng the grievances. While the majority Palestinians may not want to be involved their terrorist leadership use those grievances to give themselves justification. And since they rule Gaza with murderous intent there is little ordinary Palestinians are able to do to stop them. Which means of course that they become victims of their own leadership, especially as the fighters are indistinguishable from the population. If Israel hadn’t pushed Palestinians out of their lands and hadn’t suppressed them, and hadn’t mistreated them the situation would have been different. The facts are that Gaza has been ghettoised, blockaded for a long time so it is hardly surprising that someone standing up for them has support. In this sense Israel has caused the situation where some people feel they have to hit out at the mistreatment. What doesn’t then help is that the goal of Hamas and Hezbollah/Iran is to eliminate Israel so why on earth keep giving these terrorist cults the ammunition to justfy in their minds their actions? The first rule in war as in business and politics is to understand the enemy, their goals and objectives dictate what they will do. Yes Israel wants to and probably can eliminate the current round of Hamas and its leaders and resources, it is and can only be a short term objective, like the hydra a new set of commanders will be created and the situation cycles on and on. In the end it may mean that the Palestinians become stateless refugees, like the Israelis of 2000 years ago, but how is that going to solve the ultimate problem? Palestinians have a right to be there alongside Israelis, and the other nationalities.
Nicely diverted, which is often a troll/bot trick. You say you are neutral, yet end up attacking Israel & defending Palestinian terrorism. What are your true colours?
Where have I defended terrorist activity? Go and read what I said and do not make assumptions. There is a justification on both sides for what they each choose to do. Ignoring those factors is why the situation is as it is. The Palesinians are not all Hamas and are equally the victims. Hamas/Hisbollah/Iran etc need to learnt that their actions have consequences, and equally the same applies to Israel. That is all I said and it is in fact a political issue. Taking one sides’ actions out of context and ignoring the wider situation and the underlying causes does not produce an answer. And if Israel succeeds in destroying Hamas for now what is going to stop another group setting up and carrying on that fight? Understanding why terrorists do what they do is crucial to a solution and the only way to do that is to remove the grievances that give rise to those desperate and despicable actions. Don’t give them cause to complain in the first place! Israel considers it has to eradicate Palestinians and the rest of the region considers it has to eradicate Israel! What solutions are there? This enmity goes back millenia. Either they all learn to live alongside each other or they are perenially at each other’s throats.
So again, you start neutral & end up attacking Israel. What are your views on Russia invading Ukraine? Or how China treats the Uighurs?
You are clearly not reading everything. Saying that Israel is part of the problem and hence solution is not attacking them. It is attacking, and defending them both. You cannot ignore one side’s atrocities while condemning the other. Israel provides the ammunition of grievance to the Palestinians on their basis of being perpetual victimhood. While Palestinians and Iranians also victimise Israel (see I DO say that) it ends up a perpetual round of tit for tat. After IDF has killed off the current generation of Hamas they will need to rebuild bridges with the very peope who have suffered an order of magnitude greater loss through IDF activity than they have inflicted. Tha is not going to be easy while they are creating so many martyrs!
You remind me of those who appeased the Nazis in the 1930s. BooHoo, the Versailles Treaty was unfair, they bleated, ignoring the homophobic attack on the SA, or crystal night against the Jews. Should we have been balanced & blamed both sides on that?
What are you going on about? Have you actually thought through what I said? If you think about it carefully you will see the parallels between what Israel is doing and what the Nazis did! I am not arguing that any side is right or wrong, they are both right and both wrong. All between them are doing is prolonging the same tit-for-tat actions that have been going on since pre-Roman days. Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran are very wrong in what they are doing, but so is Israel by their treatment of Palestinians, yes dispossessing a people is not as bad as terrorist atrocities, but it is that disposession that drives and in their minds justifies Hamas actions. And in the ligh of never making any progress at resolving the disputes it is obvious that actions will become more and more extreme, out of frustration if nothing else. Both sides need to understand the long-term futility of what they are both doing. And even if Hamas (leadership) is destroyed it will only morph into something else and continue the fight some time in the future. You resolve greivances by continuing to impose more!
You seem to have difficulty telling wrong from right, or good from evil. Israel & Hamas are not the same. Israel is a multi party democracy, where unpopular governments get voted out. Open pride marches & women’s rights in Israel. Israel has been doing deals with Middle East Muslim states for mutual benefit.
Hamas could have asked for a deal. They chose an act of evil instead. Try being gay in Gaza, or asking for a free & fair election, or Women’s rights.
I note you have said nothing against the Russian invasion of Ukraine, or the genocide of Uighurs by the Chinese.
When analysing something it is imperative to consider every fact, which avoids making knee jerk assuptions about that situation. It is quite clear that you are failing to consider all the related issues that I was discussing. At NO time have I said that any one side was right or wrong. And nothing can justify what a few Hamas terrorists did in 7th October. However the actions of the IDF since then, with upwards of 10,000 deaths and the destruction of much of Gaza is also not readily justified. Perhaps if you thought about it you would realise. It may be a case of shades of evil or wrongs, but this is not what I was saying or even implying. So don’t go off on one on a matter that I did not state. I did not say one side or the other was entirely innocent. While Hamas etc have committed particularly barbaric actions, they are fuelled by the actions of Israel. It may be that Hamas and Iran have as their agenda the elimination of Israel, but within Gaza and West Bank as well as generally elsewhere in that region by ghettoising, displacing and marginalising ordinary Palestinians it fuels the widespread acceptance of Hamas in Gaza. And aside from all of these nuances and complicated historical events killing off Hamas is never ever going to stop them either reforming or another group taking over that cause, either now or in the future, particularly since such a group is promoting Iran’s ideals. Peace will only be gained in that region by all sides accepting each other’s rights to be there and not embarking on endless tit for tat killing sprees. Nothing in what I have said justifies in any way the actions, all I did was point out why those actions have taken place in the first place, which is a big if not the only clue to gaining future peace and acceptance.
So you still will not condemn Russia or China. Interesting. Yes, the bombing of Gaza is ghastly, but given the slaughter of 1200 Israelis by Hamas on 7th Oct, it was inevitable. If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.
This thread is about Israel and Palestine. Could you explain the relevance of your diversionary and off topic comment? Did I say the current situation was avoidable or not inevitable? Understanding the nature of the history is important. Yes Israel had the right of hot pursut and self defence. But in that process they need to act with a sense of proportion. And killing tens of thousands of mostly innocent Palestinians is not going to turn their anger on to the Hamas leaders. It is merely going to embed the sense of injustice and grievance in yet another few generations. So wil not solve the core problem, and while Hamas may at least temporarily cease to exist, (at what cost), another terrorist organisation will morph into existence to take up the fight. Both side’s sense of victimhood and fight for justice gets in the way of a peaceful solution. And to respond to your wider accusation Russia is not justified in attacking Ukraine, and China is not justified in its pursuit of Taiwan and the South China Sea!
“They cut open pregnant women and killed babies still attached. They tortured babies and beheaded children. They tied people up and burned them alive. – these men took their time torturing children. They are the most violent organisation in the history of mankind, and cannot be our future. They cannot be in the world we give our children. I understand the legitimate call of the Palestinian people for independence & a good life- I want that for them too- but what these monsters did was a crime against humanity, nothing to do with statehood.” Sofie Berzon Mackie, kibbutz survivor of Hamas attack on 7th October, 2023.
They certainly did didn’t they? Heinous crimes. But not an excuse to kill ten times as many in retaliation.
If you cannot see the difference, then your moral compass is broken.
You quite obviously have not read what I have been saying, just interpreting knee jerk out of context assumptions. In fact by your own statement and implied admisssion you condemn Hamas for its atrocities, yet condone those of Israel! They are both as bad as each other. I did not and never have supported any of the excessive atrocities both sides have inflicted. I merely pointed out that the round of tit-for-tat actions continue the cycle that has been going on for the last 2 to 3 thousand years. Both sides in this are at fault and both sides are victims. And given the greater numbers of anti-Israeli people surrounding them the fact that they have mistreated the Palestinians for so long makes it much harder for all sides to be reasonable. It could be argued that the UK’s and UN’s decision in 1948 to impose a state of Israel on what was then Palestine lay the seeds for what is now happening. How on earth can this cycle end?
In 1940-41, the Luftwaffe blitzed London, Coventry, Liverpool, Portsmouth, Plymouth, etc. The RAF made a major effort to get its 4 engined bombers mass produced & returned the favour by bombing Koln, Hamburg, Berlin & Dresden flat. Had you been around then, you would have probably said it was wrong for the RAF to retaliate, that the Nazis were provoked & we should do a deal with the nice Mr Hitler.
Israel & Hamas are not the same. Israel is a multi party democracy that respects Women’s & gay rights. Hamas is a brutal death cult. Israel is within its rights & doing a service to the world, in wiping the evil scum of Hamas out of existence.
I did not argue against any of this. I merely pointed out that the round of tit-for-tats is continuing the dispute. I did not start trying to argue that one side was better than the other. Each side blaming the other for the latest atrocity. However, Israel is not heloing itself in the eyes of the world. And while they had around 1500 deaths/hostages they have inflicted fan order of magnitude worse on Gaza. To maintain the moral high ground, especially as the world has largely moved on from the early 1940s they need to moderate their response – show themselves as being above the sort of thing that Hamas proliferates. They can be more reasonable, more measured and indeed considerate of the civil population victims who invariably do not want these continual wars. Israel is in danger if not already fatally crossed the line of acceptability.
It is not tit for tat, as the IDF will wipe out Hamas forever. You seem bent on protecting terrorists. Your sort wants to neuter Israel, while leaving Hamas free to rape, torture & murder.
I don’t know what world you are occupying but you keep mis-representing what I and others have said. IDF will not and can not wipe out Hamas forever. That statement does not condone what Hamas did, go and read what I and others have said. Hamas represents an ideology. The current leadership may well be wiped out but what drives it now will remain, and others will pop up in their place. Instead of making ridiculous slanderous misrepresentations of what people say go and read them, which also means taking the time to understand. I have never said anything supporting the terrorist actions, so instead of followng the woke line and conspiracy theorists read and understand. Explaining and understanding why they have done what they did is not supporting them. So I suggest it is your ‘sort’ who refuse to think who help to keep the situation as it is. The only way of stopping Palestinian Hamas forever is to commit genocide and get rid of them all, which is precisely what the Nazis tried on the Jews. Getting rid of Hamas does nothing to stop Hezbollah, Iran and its stooges from continuing with that ideological hatred. There will only ever be peace in the Middle East when all the religious cults learn to live with each other. And when one side does something in retaliation for something done to them and the original responds with the same sort of action then that is precisely the meaning of tit for tat. Israel going in now is in retaliation to Hamas latest action, which is a retaliation for the continued settlements and blockades of Gaza by Israel, and so on and on and on, and on. This is what tit-for-tat means.
So by your logic, it was an over reaction for US B-29s to flatten Tokyo, Hiroshima & Nagasaki in revenge for Pearl Harbor. You may think you are principled, but all you are doing is aiding & abetting terrorism.
Doin’t be so ridiculous. Ga and read what I said. And by read I mean take it in and think about what I said. Do not jump to a false conclusion without looking at the entirety which reads as a whole and is not a single out of context bullet point I did not and never have said that terrorism was valid. So stop your pointless repetition of that unfounded description. I remind you that all I said was that the round of tit-for-tats and atrocitoes from both sides merely continues that never ending situation. They should both stop fuelling the disagreement. How you come to your simplistic conclusion about my reasoned analsysi and observation of all the facts is beyond comprehension, or do you just knee jerk believe every conspiracy theory unthnkingly! Fact check yourself!
One day, you will realise your virtue signalling is providing comfort to brutal terrorists.
You really don’t have a clue do you? What virtue signalling or are you just repeating strange word combinations that you take out of context ignoring what has been said. And why shouldn’t people have a reaction to some slight that someone else has imposed? I did not say any of the actions were justified – just pointed out causes and consequences. How on earth is that ‘virtue signalling’? If people ignore causes, merely focussing on the latest atrocity as though it has come out of nowhere then there will never be a solution. You are virtue signalling yourself by allowing the IDF to invoke a hugely disproportionate response without criticism. Who are the victims on the Israeli side and who on the Palestinian side? If the IDF wish to maintain (as they should) the moral high ground as a recognised country then they should act like it. And attacking and destroying civil infrastructure along with innocent civilians on the basis of ‘you did this to us, we will do it back ten times worse’ is not ever a solution.
So the IDF finds Gaza hospitals stuffed full of weapons & still you defend Hamas.
Are you blind or stupid. Get off your stupid equally blibkered horse, I HAVE NEVER DEFENDED HAMAS. I HAVE NEVER DEFENDED HAMAS, I HAVE NEVER DEFENDED HAMAS. In any event one set of armoured vest and a few magazines and an AK47 is NOT stuffed full. That is the ONLY evidence so far provided, BUT I am not disputing that. ALL I said was that Hamas action on oct 7th did not occur in an indeendent vacuum. There were causes and effects NOTHING of which defends or justifies what Hamas did. They have a grievance, yes, any fool can see that, like most fo the world also seeing that, but most of the world apart from Putin, Kim, Iran and Hezbollah also sees the disproportinate activities of IDF which appear to have gone well beyond the balance of reasonable retaliation. The stupidity of their position is that it is the ideology that drives Hamas, and an ideology is never ever defeated militarily, at best it is suppressed for a short time. SO WHERE in any of the above is any defence of Hamas actions?
By calling for a ceasefire, by complaining about IDF activity, you would allow Hamas to survive. Hamas would regroup, rearm & plan its next atrocity. British forces did not stop at the Rhine in 1945 & allow Nazi Germany to continue. Hamas actions on 7th Oct cannot go unpunished. Hamas must be wiped out.
The means do not justify the actions. What you have completely failed to grasp is that Hamas are using the ideology. Destroying Hamas does not make the ideology nor the perceived or otherwise legitimate grievances of the Palestinians go away. All that will happen is that either Hamas resurrects itself with new even more hard line leaders or it morphs into something with a new name. If the second world war set out to destroy Nazi ideology it failed for example. NOBODY has said that the perpetrators of Oct 7th should go unpunished. The other factor you have also failed to grasp is that the vast majority of the IDF ‘victims’ are NOT Hamas. So tens of thousands of innocent Palestinians and their country have to be destroyed! Where is the sense of proportionality. Apart from all of that, yes a ceasefire allows a regroup, again NOBODY is denying that. The end does notjustify the means, especially if the main eventual outcome is a continuation of the victimhood of Palestinians.
The Palestinians of Gaza are not innocent. They voted for Hamas. They agreed with Hamas. They supported Hamas. They kept the secret of the preparations for 7th Oct. They joined Hamas to attack Israel in a brutal terrorist atrocity. Israel keeps finding weapons & terrorist tunnels, in & near hospitals in Gaza. Israel has done real damage to Hamas. It would be crazy for Israel to stop now.
Where the hell have I said they were! They were in no different position than we were when Tony Blair decided to go into Iraq. How do you think that downtrodden and controlled people can oust an armed dictatorship, especially one that is funded, supported and encouraged by Iran? Israel needs to finish the job, but that does not mean obliterating Gaza and creating yet more martyrs and after that it has a hugely expensive responsibility for rebuilding. The IDF is not entitled to destroy civil infrastructure bystanders, hospitals schools etc. We did not do the same in Afghanistan, but IDF is following the model used by Assad.
There is no such thing as a “nice” war. For example, Operation Gomorrah the 1943 fire bombing of Hamburg that killed 30,000. As U-boats had nearly starved Britain, attacking the German ports that built & supported the U-boats was reasonable under the circumstances.
For now, I hope Hamas can keep to the Qatar deal & release the hostages. This plus the temporary ceasefire, may become permanent if Israel is happy with the outcome.
Yes. the difference is that WW2 was a full state on state conflict and all (the vast majority) citizens were actively playing a part. In Gaza it is only the terrorist ‘few’ supported if not encouraged by external states. It isn’t possible to make an omelette without breaking an egg. It is the sense of proportion that is significant in this case and while indiscriminate damage as Dresden etc was an inevitaboe consequence of the technology at the time, it is different nowadays. Without defending Hamas it seems that the tunnels at that hospital so far do not appear significant. It could also be a political trap for Israel, with the real infrastructure elsewhere. Targetting a hospital is not the same as unfortunate collateral damage.
Israel says it found a Hamas pick up truck, full of RPGs, grenades & AKs, parked right next to a hospital. So that puts Israel in a dilemma. If they leave it, those weapons could attack Israelis. If they attack it, they will be denounced for striking right next to a hospital. Anyway, I hope we can both wish for Hamas to agree & stick to, this proposed Qatar ceasefire where hostages are safely released. Maybe, just maybe, it might bring this conflict to an end. Fingers crossed.
One truck and a few items does not a major installation make! It seems that the evidence of such is eluding the IDF. It doesn’t mean there wasn’t any of course, especially if Hamas used the time to move things so as to cause embarrassment! And vehicles from and within a combat zone, which may well have been transporting injured people is not going to be unusual, especially if they weren’t able to remove them after delivery of casualty. I don’t suppose Hamas has the luxury of unarmed field ambulances! Perhaps in the hope of avoiding going through all the tunnels the IDF are creating a PR nightmare for themselves.
So you claim to be neutral, but in reality you believe everything Hamas says, while ignoring everything Israel says.
Where on earth do you get your assumptions from? You are clearly a conspiracy theory fan, believing things in your own head if they support your predefined idea. Since when did I believe everything.? What I did was to look at the actual evidence. That is essential in fact-checking and weighing up the various pros and cons, which also includes all the history not just that from the last 4 weeks or so. If you jump to conclusions you ignre pertinent factors which gets in the way of any intelligent debate. The first rule in any conflict is to know your enemy. Know what its short and long term objectives are and capabilities. Consider what its ‘get out from the mess’ options are. Knowing th enemy means looking at things from their perspective, which is the only way of achieveing a satisfactory and acceptable outcome. You fall into the same trap as Boris Johnson and his admirers of ignoring and dismissing counter evidence and his demonstrated inability to see things as they really are or even understand complex issues. Pointing out flaws in arguments, lateral thinking, and being aware of issues and conflicting evidence is not a metaphor for disagreeing or even opposition. I have never said that I support Hamas actions, in the same way I have never said I support IDF actions. Understanding why they have both done what they have done is crucial to finding a solution. Ignoring what seems to either side’s imperatives means they go underground at best only to resurface later on. And Hamas is only the latest round of the same ideology. Destroying Hamas does nothing to destroy the ideology. Destroying Hamas does nothing to stop the goals of Iran, who will just fund another group with a different name. To maintain the moral high ground Israel needs to stop persecuting the Palestinians. Iran and its acolytes are using that persecution for their own ends. Take time to read and think!
Who exactly was being persecuted on 7th October? Again your language gives you away.
Your complete inability to rationalise any statement and compete failure to think means you are contributing nothing to the debate. Displaying as you do the typical short term memory and lack of analytical capability of most polticians and bean counters. Your inability to comprehend and reflect on history is astounding. This situation did not start on 7th October but was an unacceptable continuation and escalation of the long standing problems from 1948 if not before. 7th October did not happen in a vacuum. When people feel they have been pushed up against the wall with no recourse what do you think they feel they need to do? These statements do not reflect any support for the action, which if you took the trouble to engage brain before openng mouth or typing you would realise. You cannot fix an underlying problem by focussing on the symptoms. This disaster has to play out before anyone can come to their senses, and the key to that is for the two sides to reconcile in some way.
The situation that Gaza finds itself in now, started on 7th October. As I said in my first reply to you, Israel has previous history of doing mutually beneficial deals with Islamic Middle East Nations able to grasp such chances. Hamas could have reached out to Israel for a deal. They chose violence so awful, that the Australian Shadow Defence Minister broke down on TV, when he recalled the footage he had been shown. Israeli female soldiers hiding under a table being ruthlessly shot. A father trying to defend his two small sons. Hamas threw a grenade at them, then shot the father in front of these small boys. One boy lost an eye. Yet you still defend Hamas & trash Israel. You come across as a Jeremy Corbyn, anti semite.
I’m loving this. Nice work there John.
Well, how can I stand buy & watch the useful fools defend Hamas. I saw the news report of a released hostage. This 12 year old boy was taken to Gaza, where “innocent Palestinians” came out of their houses to beat him. Then Hamas made him watch videos of Hamas committing terrorist murders “on repeat”.
He is a troll.
Nick Cole’s comments are balanced imo. Is there a necessity to take sides? Simpler minds see things in black and white, it would seem.
If you cannot tell good from evil, then your moral compass is broken.
Here is the thing to ask yourself.
remember Gaza was under Egyptian and the West Bank (Judea) was under Jordanian occupation and oppression under 1967.
why was the PLO formed in 1964 with the aim of getting rid of the Jewish state rather than freeing themselves from Jordanโs and Egyptian oppression?
Where have I argued anything contrary to that? It is a problem going back thousands of years.
My comment was trying to get you to think about the fact that the actions of Israel and the blockade against Gaza is in response to the violence of the Palestinians and the fact that the Palestinians have never accepted the nation of Israel. Because they are seen as worse than infidels, they are jews.
It’s an issue of the Muslim religion.
Thats why the Palestinians weren’t concerned with overthrowing their oppressors in Gaza and West Bank when it was Egypt and Jordan oppressing them.
So in short HAMAS (whos charter calls for the genocide of the jews) didn’t need any excuse to target Jews other than the fact they are there, it was the same for the PLO in 1964.
Did I say anything to the contrary? The history of the area has been the same for thousands of years. Continual rounds of barbaric tit for tats. What I did say was that Israel’s actions feed the terrorists, and the terrorists actions feed the Israelis. While Hamas action on 7th October was unjustified and deplorable, the weight of destruction and death by the Israelis is an order of magnitude worse. The difficulty they have is that Hamas has deliberately hidden its infrastructure under and alongside sensitive civil buildings. And not to forget that Hamas is driven by ideology, which cannot ever be extinguished so why feed that ideology with a sense of injustice? Obliterating Hamas, as well as Gaza and a substantial number of Palestinian citizens will not make it go away but will fuel the demands for revenge. And until Iran, ISIS, and the other countries with a similar anti-Israeli ideology back down this conflict will continue ad-infinitum. I wouldn’t mind betting that Putin is at least partially behind this as well.
yeah you did. You said this.
“While Hamas etc have committed particularly barbaric actions, they are fuelled by the actions of Israel.”
And my comment was just merely pointing out that as long as the state of Israel has existed they haven’t needed any other excuse to do what they do.
ie Palestinian’s attitudes towards the state of Israel is the same today as it was in 1948. They want them gone and don’t want to negotiate. And that is the majority of Palestinians who hold that view.
Israel for it part up until the last decade or so has tried to find peace, but not had a willing partner.
So Israel moved to a containment strategy but it failed.
Nothing Israel could do is going to result in peace because that Palestinians don’t want to.
Now as a result the Israel’s have hardened and are not interesting in peace, and October 7th cemented that.
The only way this ends is if the Arab states (Jordan, Egypt, Oman etc)not Turkey or Qatar who are aligned with Hamas) re-occupy the West Bank and Gaza and with the help of China de-radicalise the Palestinian people. And it will take decades because the children for decades through the schooling system (which alot of it is UN run, hence the UN can’t be involved in this) have been radicalised to hate Jews.
You do point out the antipathy towards Israel by the surrounding states. I never denied that. And yes none of them want Israel to exist. But therein lies the problem. How do we persuade those states to leave Israel alone? What right did any of us have to impose a solution on an unwilling set of states? If Israel didn’t exist prior to 1948, they were already a diaspora, and why should those other states accept the imposition without complaint? The actions of an Israel suffering permanent victimhood pushing Palestinians out of their existing lands has fuelled the latest crisis (and who knows that Putin hasn’t encouraged it). And while tacitly many Palestinians and surrounding states accepted Israel being there the actions of the hotheads remains fuelled by the ghettoisation and dispossession. So Israel can hardly be said to be acting benign If you want to get on with your neigbours and/or internal ethnic groups you should not provoke them. In the minds of the reasonable world there is no justification for Hamas atrocities, but in their minds there is. To understand an enemy and fight effectively you have to get into their heads. Kicking off at an overlord or authority is a right of passage for many people.
I don’t actually disagree with much of what you have said.
I think what explains alot of Israel’s reactions in this conflicts is basically why the modern state of Israel exists today.
The Israeli’s see Jewish blood as more valuable than Arab or anyones else’s blood.
This has come about because there are so few Jews. 70% of all Jews were eradicated during the Holocaust, then after that 750,000 Jews were push out of Arabs states.
Then then before WW2 also we have the Pogrom of the Jews in Russia and persecution in Europe in the late 19th/ early 20th centuries. The Jews have had a history of being repeatedly genocided and ethically cleansed over their 3500 year history.
I think that explains what many in the West view as their “over reaction” to events.
And it’s a cycle, when Isreal first took over the West Bank and Gaza they did try to make nice with the Palestinians. But as mentioned the Palestinians always hated the Jews more than anything else, so when the Palestinians would attack the Isrealis would crack down, and that would result in more terriosts attacks, and so the Isrealis would crack down even more. etc
If you have time, have a listen to this podcast with the former Navy Seal and now Author/TV producer Jack Carr’s interview with HAMAS expert Jonathan Schanzer. He lays out the history of HAMAS and talks about Isreals failed experiment of pulling out of Gaza and letting them have self rule.
It’s super interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD4oyn6d9-o
I know a very difficult situation. Until both sides can reconcile their differences it is never going to end. It doesn’t help that the anti-Israel Islamic world exists as a cult and its leaders brainwash their public, and refuse to update their mediaeval thinking.
Yes that is the definition of tit-for-tat. You have not interpreted what I said except to take the whole out of context and apply it to a single action. Hamas actions deplorable as they were did not come out of a vacuum. I did not ever say Hamas were justified in what they did, though they are justified in complaining about the historic actions of Israel. Because of that they have taken the flawed and incorrect view that they have no other choice. Hamas relinquished the moral high ground on October 7th, but then IDF also make the same mistake through the onging disproportionate response and consequences. To an extent they don’t have much choice as destroying Hamas and their resources inevitably results in significant colateral damage. It is therefore in Israel’s direct interest to minimise if not avoid this. The logical question absolutely remains that Hamas may cease to exist but the ideology that drives it never will. That is the core problem Israel faces.
Trying frame this a recent conflict under a century old is wrong, its the mistake the US made in Iraq not understand the Shai/Sunni dynamic. Is not about borders its religious, if it was about borders then you’d see much more support for the Kurds having a homeland. And in the West its political with the left still looking on the Jews as capitalist and controlling wealth, again using the Kurds as an example there’s zero support from the left for Kurdish homelands, go figure.
I guess the biggest irony is the National Socialists in Germany who hated Jewish wealth gained through capitalism persecuted and pushed Jews out of Europe to settle in the Middle East and amplified the crisis.
Quite right. The issue is far more complex and embedded than most observers state it is also far too easy to jump on the latest atrocity as though it happened in a baseless fit of temper in a vacuum or of previous benign relationships. And is a very strong argument for removing religion and religous cults from all politics. Until they all learn to live with each other there will be no end to this. It isn’t just a century but a couple of millenia, well BCE, pre Roman even. As with most things resolving the symptoms fails to address and usually ignores the underlying disease or problem.
I never did say it was less than a century old. I pointed out that it has been going on for 3,000 years or so. Two wrings do not make a right.
Ohh I think in this case we are looking at so many wrongs stacked up on all sides just in the last century.. ( including us in Europeans tbh), without going into history. I think the only hope really is if somehow the extremist religious nut cases can be removed to allow a slow healโฆ.but the sad truth is the Islamists are never going away and as long as their are Islamists, the really radical Zionist movement will be empoweredโฆbut at least the radical Zionist element can be voted out..
That is why Netanhayu got back in then! An intractable problem.
So you are forgetting that Fatah does the same – for example pays families for every terrorist act, even those done by the Hamas ?
What were the sermons by mosques in PA area after 07 October?
Showing once more the dismal state of the western media no one asked the Palestinian Authority if it will pay the families of the 07 October massacre authors.
No I am not forgetting. What I was doing was looking at the longer history and actions of both sides. It is too easy to take a simplistic here and now view but the context of these conflicts goes back many centuries. I did not suggest that Israel doesn’t have a right to self-defence or hot pursuit. What I pointed out was that the dispossesion and apartheid policies of the Israelis creates the very grievances that allow Hamas and others to fester and grow. If Israel wants to peacefully co-exist it has to stop giving fuel to those grievances.
I think you are forgetting that Isreal was willing to do-existโฆIsreal was perfectly willing to agree to partition and a 2 state solutionโฆwhen you consider Jordan was part of the Palestinian mandate essential the Arab world was getting over 80% of the landโฆIsreal 20% but the Arab states and Arab populations view was that the Israel state could have 0% as all of historic Palestine had to be Muslim. They attack Israel and never stoppedโฆthe place Israel is in now is because of that, they tried for a two state solution for a long timeโฆ.now they have given upโฆthe reality is that the Arab states and Arab Muslim population of Palestine have never looked for peace and a two state solutionโฆgenerally the Arab Muslim population of Palestinian shows support of between 30-39% for a peaceful two state solutionโฆ( its always been worse in gaza than the West Bank) that has never changes..in Israel that support for a peaceful 2 state solution had been at 60-70%โฆ..over that last few years itโs drop to 40-50% now I dread to thinkโฆin reality the majorly of the population of Gaza have supported Hamas violence to wards Israelโฆ.itโs horrible what has happened to the population of Gaza, it truly isโฆbut there have been a few roads that could have lead to peace and itโs always been the Arab Muslim populations and leaders choice to chose conflictโฆ.israel pulling out of Gaza in 2005 was them trying for peace..they removed the settlersโฆmade a deal aid and money was flowing into Gaza..the population then inexcusably voted for and supported a bunch of religious bass genocidal Neo Nazis to govern thenโฆwho immediately launched attacks on IsraelโฆIsrael responded by locking the boarder and a navel blockadeโฆits worth remembering that as Hamas hate the Egyptian government almost as much Egypt did exactly the same thing with its boarder with Gazaโฆ.
As for going back centuriesโฆyes itโs actually around 2000 years of Muslim and Christian ethic cleansing of the Jews from Palestine..there is a reason there were very few Jews in Palestine thatโs because the Christian crusaders kingdoms and Muslim kingdoms litterally made it impossible for the Jewish population to live there. The Christians then made it impossible for the Jews to live in Europeโฆ..the Jews have most definitely not spend 2000 years randomly ethically cleansing muslins and Christianโฆbut the Christianโs and Muslims have done that to the Jewsโฆ.
No I am not forgetting. Can you read what I have written and see where I have said that Hamas has ever been justified? All I did was point out the various factors behind the actions. Failing to understand the perspectives of all participants gets in the way of devising a solution. In any conflict, business or military it is of fundamental and critical importance to understand the enemy, their motivations and objectives. Knee jerk responses merely continue the conflict with no resolution. Hamas invited the response we have seen, but Israel has created the conditions for Hamas to feel they have no choice but to carry out their atrocities. Hamas’ actions did not come about in a vacuum. Stating why a group or individual does things is not agreeing with their choice of action, is not justifying it, nor applauding it. Understanding all the factors involved is not possible if some are excluded from the analysis. This leads to continued bad outcomes and a failure to address the underlying problems. Further to this – trying to eliminate Hamas, however worthy as a short term objective is not dealing with their paymasters or the base ideology. The consequences of the disproportionate response will reverberate for many more years.
The problem Nick is Iโm not sure how you get a peaceful solution, Iโm a firm believer in the two state solution, the problem is the Zionist have show they would compromiseโฆ.fatah have come to the point they will compromise..but Hamas and Hezbollah simply have no compromise in the, they donโt call for freedom for Gaza and the West Bank..they call for the destruction of Israelโฆthey have not other goal, itโs anthem to them, everyone can call for peace, Israel could remove all the settlers and forces from the West Bank as they tried with Gaza, but it would make no difference to Hamas and Hezbollah..they would simply attack and attack againโฆ.the only peace Hezbollah and Hamas will accept ever is the peace that follows the destruction of Israel..its profoundly difficult to understand, but that is the unfortunate truth. The other truth is these are not small terror organisations these are armies with 10,000s of well trained fighters under arms..they are well backed by state sponsors..who are happy to supply them with even a ballistic missilesโฆ
Unfortunately it does not take two to make wars only one..and no matter what Hamas and Hezbollah will make that war.
I know, and that is the problem. A war will not provide the solution as all the old enmities will keep coming back to haunt. All a war, destruction, merely defers similar acton to a laer date. Religion is at the heart of it and the Islamic cults that some nations follow are the ones failing to modernise. As always it is state or cult leaders who create wars and the ordinary people who pay the price.
yes, you can actually see the difference between a religious driven group and a secular, freedom driven group in Palestine. Hamas and Fatah the story of religious vs secular freedom fightersโฆIsreal could and should come to terms with fatah.Infact I think it was a huge strategic mistake by Israel to not take the olive branch in the West Bank that fatah renouncing violence was, they should have removed all the settlers and their military then fully support a Palestinian state in the West Bank including investing in it to make it well off..a Palestinian state that worked was independent of Israel run by secular fatah, could show the population of Gaza that continuing to support Hamas is a fools gameโฆthe final bit of the puzzle is that the arab states especially Egypt have to take on some accountability for helping fatah to then sorting out Gaza and removing Hamas..fatah could not combat Hamas alone and Israeli intervention just stokes the firesโฆ( the present view of Egypt is that gaza is an Israeli problem not theirsโฆeven though they claimed the strip in the 47 war) but unless Hamas are destroyed and removed as the government of Gaza ( by fatah, supported by other Arab states) Israeli will keep being forced to act ( no nation can sit back and let another make war on it..Isreal did try that with Gaza and it failed)โฆthe problem now is Hamas have pushed all the buttons, dug in and got Isreal to react in the way Hamas wanted them toโฆbut I donโt think the Israelis can see another way, they see danger all around and an existential threat to their existence and are reacting in a way all nations do when that happensโฆ.trouble is that increases the level of existential threat even more ( to the north and other Arab states) so they have to double downโฆthey are in a cycle of violence..but you can only get out of that cycle if both sides are willingโฆ.I think there is potential for a far larger tragedy in the levant than we are seeing now..but I really donโt see a way out of it ( as Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are purposefully pushing everyone over the cliff and will keep pushing, as their only goal is the destruction of Israel, and I donโt think they care how many innocent people die of whatever religion in the jihad of the sword to get to that point). Truly profoundly tragic, but that has been the fate of the levant for 2500 years.
We have had a Jewish community in the UK since at least the beginning of the 20th century. This is what happens when you have an open borders policy. MSM claim there is 250000 Palestinians living in this country. What were the Home office and the immigration service thinking when they presumably allowed them into this country, knowing their feelings towards the Jewish community ? No common sense whatsoever. We almost ought to allow 100 k armed Russians and similar Ukrainians and let them fight it out on our soil ! What’s the point in spending 45 billion or so on armed forces when the Government allow anyone to come into this country and behave the way we have seen bringing sheer hatred to our streets and possibly worse to come. MI5 must be very worried right now . Because the first atrocity the MSM will push the blame onto MI5 for their alleged inadequate failings. MSM will never blame open borders etc ! Abedi was everyone’s fault except Abedi, according to MSM. If fact it was a result of a right to a family life nonsense.
It was Blair in 1997 who decided to scrap border checks, in the hope the immigrants would vote Labour. Twenty+ years on, we can see that all it did was trash the pay & conditions of the working class, while importing other people’s wars to the UK.
Ah, bravo
Blair , Cameron and May are all responsible for destabilizing parts of the world and increasing terrorism . Either deluded or perhaps richer for their actions !
Yes. Richer no doubt. I was on a plane to Glasgow once with Cameron and his 6 bodyguards after he had left no. 10. Seriously wanted to give him an earful. This is the guy that said we British can learn a lot on how to behave from muslims, we need “cultural enrichment.” Seriously demented stuff.
Yup!
The problem is much more vast than just UK , it is pretty much in all Western Europe. Western Europe risks being a giant future Lebanon.
This will change also all the political dynamics in Europe and USA . The Left will split and the Right will be stronger.
And the Right will become increasingly dictatorial.
Rock on Tommy Robinson, eh?
Last Thursday I was in the City of London and walked past Bevis Marks synagogue. Opened in 1701, it was built alongside the Wren churches and anecdotally added to its fabric an oak beam from a Royal Navy ship, a present from Queen Anne. The synagogue has held regular services ever since.
I think Oliver Cromwell invited the Jews back if I remember correctly, after they were expelled twice before
Cool ๐. Didn’t realise that, ta.
๐
I like this Forum. Informational, Educational, both satisfying and feckin maddening, o aye and knowledgeable. ๐ค.
๐ All the same… Leave the Cenataph alone!
There has been a Jewish community for centuries!
There is no solution to the problem of Israel/Palestine. There never has been. Once, entirely understandably, the international community,UN, accepted the existence of a Jewish homeland in territory which for 1800 years had had only a tiny community of Jews until Zionist migration began in the late nineteenth century, a conflict between two competing identities, exacerbated by religious intolerance,, became inevitable. The two state solution could only have worked prior to 1948, when Israeli numbers were small and a defined homeland for them with approved and protected borders might have been accepted by the wider population. After the wars of 1947 gave Israel far more than a modest enclave, no peaceful solution was really possible.
Of far greater concern is the threat posed in the UK and other Western European countries by Islamic terrorists and by the presence of large unassimilated Muslim communities, many of whose members despise Western values whilst happily reliant on the financial assistance provided by the host countries. Welfare systems as in Gaza encourage large families, so the problem grows.
Whether the concern for Palestinians is real or synthetic, the purpose of the demonstrations is to show power. They can have no effect on the current conflict- Britain has no influence with Israel. But they do serve as a timely warning that we have allowed into our country a population that will never assimilate. In Ww2 we interned some tens of thousands people of foreign origin who might have posed a threat. With a Muslim population of over 3 million (8/9 million in France),what would we be able to do in the event of a conflict with any Muslim country?
As Denis Healey said, “If you are in a hole, stop digging”. Time to go back to the pre-Blair border checks. Also, adopt the anti-Islamofascist measures being adopted by other European Nations.
Europe was under threat from Islamic powers for over 1000 years, with large parts of Spain occupied until the 15th century reconquista and much of the Balkans occupied. Only after the 1683 failure of the siege of Vienna did the threat begin to recede. Even then, slave raids by north African pirates continued until the early 19th century.
Industrialization and the accompanying population growth in Europe shifted the balance decisively and large parts of the Islamic world were conquered and colonized by Europeans.
Nowhere did a mutual tolerance between Christian and Muslim populations develop. As Western Christianity has gradually morphed into largely liberal secularism, we have lost sight of the intransigent nature of Islam. France has an official policy of state secularism. Other countries have chosen to give semi recognition to Islam. The results appear to be the same – fast growing, economically underachieving, intolerant minority populations ready to threaten, intimidate and resort to violence of all kinds in the name of defending their religion.
Appeasement of this kind of behaviour will only make matters worse. The problem won’t be solved merely by the passage of time- it has been present for centuries.
Solutions? Not easy and unlikely to be peaceful.
Macron is trying to get a new immigration bill passed in France. He may not have the votes. It has some interesting ideas in it. It would make residency easier for useful migrants who have needed skills. It would make it easier to deport failed migrants. It would remove welfare from those who lose their case to stay. It has provision to screen undocumented migrants to see if they are a danger.
This situation is a product of the failure of so called multiculturalism and a higher eduction system dominated by elites of the Left and proponents of Woke.
Why there is any surprise at this outcome is an indication of the ignorance of consequences.
Wot you said ๐
The 21st century… an age that frankly, I hate and loathe. All those people on the streets of major cities, being cajoled and led by hamas supporters.
Free Palestine… so what Palestine would that be then? There is no such place as Palestine. When the Romans put down the ‘Jewish’ revolt around AD100, they changed the name of Judea to Palestini, in an attempt to erase the people, and their home from History.
After the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the British along with their French counterparts, drew a few lines on a huge map of the middle east.
It was those people, who started this initially. Those and certain Arab Tribal leaders, who wanted their own little enclave, who backed and supported the British and French during WWI.
British and French government officers, knew next to nothing about the people who lived ALONGSIDE one another as ARABS, for 100’s or 1000’s of years. Indeed at that point, a large number of Jews lived in what is modern day Iran and Iraq, plus Syria, Lebanon etc etc.
In the 1980’s, if the IRA (political wing or whatever) were to have attempted to hold a protest march in London, they would never have been entertained, because they were a terrorist organisation.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation… why are they held in such high regard by British people? Shocking… truly shocking!
But the IRA would openly fund raise in cities like New York in the US.
Google “Muhammad Qassem Sawalha” a Hamas leader who has evaded Israel’s security and came to live in London. He is one of the agitators who stirs up these protests.
Aye about time we got some semblance of reality from the articles published by guest contributors . Totally agree with this one a well written and balanced article I wholeheartedly agree with ๐๐ป
The author is defo a Scot 4sure as only a Scotsman could come away with this level of sane thinking. ๐ bravo ๐๐ป
๐ด๓ ง๓ ข๓ ณ๓ ฃ๓ ด๓ ฟ๐ฌ๐ง
I support both Palestinian & Israeli rights to security & dignity as nations. I also oppose atrocities & excessive force by both of them.
Withdrawing so suddenly from Afghanistan was a disgraceful blunder that handed victory to the Taliban. What a betrayal.
A free Palestine under the sponsorship of Iran/Hamas is perhaps the biggest oxymoron I heard in a while.
Who in gods name let these people into our country, and on what grounds? We should only be taking the worlds brighest and best. I really don’t understand how these people can just rock up here.
Ha, the politic Clowns ๐คก! God help us, what else there ๐ถ๐ค๐ด
It’s by design to replace you. And as the Irish people learned in the last week or so, the Somalian arriving on the beach in Dublin has THE SAME sovereign rights as native born Irish people no matter how many generations they’ve lived in Ireland. It’s real, it’s a worldwide anti-white, socialist revolution and the Irish have woken up to this fact. now we need Britain to wake up from their naive slumber.
While Hamas are probably largely Palestinian, it is unreasonable to equate all Palestinians as Hamas. This creates a major problem for the IDF as to how they identify legitimate military targets compared to normal civilians especially as many military facilities are built under civil infrastructure buildings. Support for Palestinian victims is not support for Hamas, who deserve everything they get. Sadly it is the innocent civilian victims now an order of magnitude greater than the Israeli ones who are bearing the brunt of the reprisals.
This is a simplistic view of the terrorist threat. It lumps many different groups together when in fact they are very different, with different aims, objectives snd methods.
The notion that the West would persist with the ‘Vietnam’ of Afghanistan is simply untenable. The number one lesson we should lave learnt over centuries of conflict is do not invade Afghanistan. Do strikes if needed to take out camps etc but boots on the ground is not the answer. We have to fight smart and not use a blunt instrument when a small sharp knife is needed.
Also I do not think we should try and impose Western liberal democracy on counties where it is not wanted and does not work. Like Afghanistan, Iraq. I think the West should drop the idea of running other peoples countries…
I think you are wrong about Afghanistan. The West had set up a situation it could have maintained indefinitely with almost all the ongoing casualties being Afghan.
We were watching generational change under way. They had gone in less than 20yrs from a society with little higher education and none at any level for girls to one where 250k were in higher education, 50k women.
The difference to say post Nazi Germany was we had not killed off the previous generation. To tear down the Nazis we killed 10m Germans weighted towards men willing to fight for them, and left another 10m maimed, heavily weighted towards men willing to fight for them. This effectively wiped out men of fighting age. We then put a total of about 4m troops in, half facing off against one another. The rest with a pretty free hand to do as they will.
The equivalent situation in Afghanistan would have meant killing 4-5m weighted towards Taliban supporters and left 4-5m maimed heavily weighted towards Taliban supporters. This would have destroyed the opposition. Then put 1m troops in with liberal ROE.
We would have seen even more change than we did, but have been condemned as racist, even though last time I looked the Nazis were rather whitish.
I think we are going to have to do such things more in the future. By analogy I do not think there are many poor parts of the UK or USA where the Police would not lose control to criminals if they were limited to what they could recruit and pay for locally. Very soon afterwards the inhabitants of richer areas would really regret not subsidising their policing.
The world is becoming a smaller and more inter connected place and what Trump threw away in Afghanistan is an ongoing disaster for good all over the world.
If there was generational change why did the people of Afghanistan just fold when the US pulled out? If they wanted a changed country…
The fact was that the West was propping up an unpopular government that had little impact over large areas of the country. I think the lesson is that propping up other peoples governments does not work, you need the majority of the country supporting the government and willing to FIGHT for this improved country.
Also you talk of a Western vision of Afghanistan assuming it is obvious that the people would want democracy, female education etc…. we think these things are obvious advantages but does your local tribal leader. I think we should leave folk to sort out their own countries.
if we need to take out a terrorist camp threatening UK security we can do tgat without taking over the country!
i do not believe that propping up an unpopular administration was sustainable. The USA came to that conclusion and that is why they pulled out. If they had read their history books they might not have gone in at all.
Whatever aspects I agree with in this article it is pretty despicable of the author to suggest multiple times that those demonstrating in these marches are association supporters of Hamas that is unacceptable on his part when there is no evidence that all but a small minority do so. Indeed many in that March today wore poppies hardly something pro Hamas individuals would do.
Equally I feel somewhat queasy over the fawning attitude of the author towards Israel and in particular their present Govt and deeply unedifying leader which until recently had thousands of Israelis demonstrating on the streets against policies that were anything but democratic and whoโs leader, who himself is lucky so far to have avoided a prison cell for corruption and alleged fraud, is of course a party to extremist settler groups illegally stealing Palestinian land and deliberately instigating policies that make agreement on a two state solution impossible. He is no Man of Pease and some of those who support him in Israel, some in high office ( and no doubt beyond in America where he has suspect history too) and who he empowers are little better than Hamas in reality, itโs just the fact that they have things going their way with the Govt sponsored colonisation process on the West Bank that precludes them from truly showing just what evil they are capable of.
If we are going to ward off the implications of more terrorism in the West it might be better to take a somewhat less Black and White jaundiced take on the matter because that will simply make it all the more inevitable, because it will only drive those Arab and Muslim Govts who in turn we may dislike in many cases, but we have to get on with and who themselves detest the likes of Hamas, into the hands of potentially growing extremism in their younger populations. Whoever this author is I rather prefer to listen to the likes of John Simpson and Frank Gardener on such matters compared to his almost gleeful โI told ya soโ rant. Itโs rather more nuanced in reality.
I think he is right to see support of these marches as support for terror and anti-semitism. Let us look at an analogous situation. Say in WW2 if the holocaust had been public knowledge and ongoing. You join a march against the allied bombing campaign. Only that. Are you being pro-Nazi? I would say yes.
A ‘peace’ march would at the least be calling for the release of the hostages. An action Hamas could take on its own and which would almost certainly stop the bombing.
To be honest, I am struggling with the terms Palestine, and Palestinians.
Palestine simply does not exist, nor is there a ‘tribe’ called Palestinians.
PEOPLE have livid in these places for a long, long time. Those people are Arabs. Muslim Arabs, Jewish Arabs, and all manner of others
Time to be practical. Regardless of who is marching and for what, the Met can only police these marches by weakening forces in the regions and by distorting normal work. Football matches need policing; Christmas shoppers need to be kept safe; criminals need to be caught. The pro-Palestine marchers have made their point but need reminding that the rest of the country has rights too; to a safe and peaceful life. Further marches would give the game awayโฆ.that they are being selfish and it looks like are intent on forcing political change. They should go home and buy their Christmas tree.
Spearheaded by the Guardian’s unequivocal support of Hamas, and the BBC glossing over misreporting. For a fine example of the latter, consider that the BBC reported on scene declared that he “cannot imagine any other explanation” other than that Ahli Arab hospital was hit by an Israeli bomb; meanwhile in response to IDF video of weapons captured in Shifa hospital, the BBC commentator strove mightily to offer the excuse that they were used by the hospital’s security department.
You allow open borders and we will get two types of terrorists, ones that come here with evil intent and those who become disgruntled for reasons not necessarily in our control ie the current conflict. To demonstrate how bad things are: as far back as the 1980s MI5 had a spy in the immigration dept. Now I do not know if they thought individuals in the dept were helping terrorists or just thought it was their ” duty” to allow as many in as possible, no matter what. I think we can agree it’s much worse now. I do feel sorry for those working in security at the moment. It has to be the worse job. At some point you will inevitably fail and be blamed, whilst the politicians hide, cower, spout platitudes and hide behind the security services skirts !
Hopefully, my fears are unfounded.
The UK is done for. I served in RN for 9 years, Falklands the whole bit. Moved to the States and gradually watched from afar as my people began their self loathing and shame over Empire, wringing their hands and saying “we aren’t as good as we thought we were, we were terrible people, surely someone else can do it better? Surely we can have others from distant lands lead us?”
Complete lack of faith and belief in themselves complete capitulation of rock solid beliefs and values, and rejection of British exceptionalism (not a dirty word) that the British had. Now mass immigration, hand wringing and control by the leftists has decimated the country. Any words that are uttered that people are NOT in favour of mass immigration and mongrelization/multiculturalism (“we can learn a lot from Muslims” – David Cameron) is swiftly met with the magic suppression word that shuts down all dissent… “racist.” It’s not racist to love your own country and your wonderful heritage and 1000 years of history! Stop lying down and taking a kicking. Stop being weak and apathetic at being relegated to second class citizens in your own country. Remember who you were and most importantly – make sure those coming to your shores adhere to YOUR values not theirs. Yes, that might mean national service. The worst possible thing would be civilians taking matters into their own hands (Dublin) or worse, a military coup. Britain is not immune to these things. Look how your Police have been co-opted and have chosen a side…and it’s not the British born and bred people.
Good luck…but honestly, my money is on ISLAM. I don’t think you guys have it in you anymore. You’ve given up and gone all woke. It will destroy you.