Aircraft carriers are a symbol of national status, the technical capability required to build them and the resources required to operate them globally aren’t attainable for most nations.

The Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers are the largest surface warships ever constructed for the Royal Navy and will represent a significant increase in capability. The vessels will be utilised by all three branches of the UK Armed Forces and will provide eight acres of sovereign territory. Both ships

are versatile enough to be used for operations ranging from high intensity conflict to providing humanitarian aid and disaster relief.

F-35B jets on HMS Queen Elizabeth.

The 1998 defence review identified that aircraft carriers offered the following:

  • Ability to operate offensive aircraft abroad when foreign basing may be denied.
  • All required space and infrastructure; where foreign bases are available they are not always available early in a conflict and infrastructure is often lacking.
  • A coercive and deterrent effect when deployed to a trouble spot.

Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope, former First Sea Lord, has said, “To put it simply, countries that aspire to strategic international influence have aircraft carriers”. Henry Kissinger, while United States Secretary of State, also said: “An aircraft carrier is 100,000 tons of diplomacy”.

American MV-22B lands on HMS Queen Elizabeth.

Lieutenant Colonel Mark Searight Royal Marines, explained the importance of HMS Queen Elizabeth and her capabilities.

“HMS Queen Elizabeth will maintain the United Kingdom’s ability to have a forward-based strategic conventional deterrent which has the ability not only to conduct strike operations with the F-35B, which is its primary role, but also to have an Embarked Military Force that is fully trained and ready to be projected ashore to conduct tasks that might arise.

That might be soft power for defence engagement, all the way through to humanitarian and disaster relief and war fighting. This training is part of the initial work-up to achieve that. The training has gone really well. It’s been an education to the Ship’s Company on what the LPH role will entail, and there has also been education to those who assist me to achieve aviation assault operations: Assault guides, FLYCO, the Logistics department who make sure they can sustain the operation and troops sufficiently; the ammunition personnel in the Air Engineering Department who make sure we have got the right ammunition. It’s a complex process.”

HMS Queen Elizabeth leaves Gibraltar.

When will they be fully operational?

SaveTheRoyalNavy.org have this fantastic infographic here.

Preview, click to visit full sized image.

What will the vessels carry?

The term now used for the carriers embarked squadrons is ‘Carrier Air Wing’ (CVW). The vessels are capable of deploying a variety of aircraft in large numbers, up to a maximum in the upper fifties in surge conditions.

F-35B on HMS Queen Elizabeth.

Captain Jerry Kyd, former commander of HMS Queen Elizabeth, commented on the initial deployment and the gradual increase in air wing numbers:

“We are constrained by the F-35 buy rate even though that was accelerated in SDSR in 2015, so initial operating capability numbers in 2020 are going to be very modest indeed.

We will flesh it out with helicopters, and a lot depends on how many USMC F-35s come on our first deployment in 2021. But by 2023, we are committed to 24 UK jets onboard, and after that it’s too far away to say.”

In addition to the joint force of Royal Air Force and Royal Navy F-35Bs and their pilots, the air wing is expected to be composed of a ‘Maritime Force Protection’ package of nine anti-submarine Merlin HM2 and four or five Merlin for airborne early warning; alternatively a ‘Littoral Manoeuvre’ package could include a mix of RAF Chinooks, Army Apaches, Merlin HC4 and Wildcat HM2. Sources close to the programme assure me that the vessel would still carry at least one F-35 squadron aboard in such circumstances to offer air defence as well as support to the helicopter assault activities.

The Crowsnest AEW&C aircraft will come from a number of the embarked Merlins (any of which can be fitted with the sensor package), the number again scaling with requirements.

Around the time the first carrier deploys operationally, the UK will have 42 F-35 aircraft, with 24 being front-line fighters and the remaining 18 will be used for training (at least 5 on the OCU), be in reserve or in maintenance.

What is the ‘deterrent effect’?

The view of the deterrent effect these vessels will have has been expressed frequently in defence circles, with the First Sea Lord last year stating that the Queen Elizabeth class supercarriers will represent a “powerful and important strategic conventional deterrent”. Admiral Sir Philip Jones First Sea Lord and Chief of Naval Staff said:

“HMS Queen Elizabeth is the first carrier in the world designed from the outset to operate a fifth generation combat aircraft. Crucially, a second ship – HMS Prince of Wales – is on its way, which will give the UK a continuous Carrier Strike capability. I have every expectation that, in time, this combination of carriers and jets will represent a powerful and important strategic conventional deterrent.”

The ships former commanding officer, Captain Simon Petitt, rightfully pointed out in 2016=7 that there is a lot of symbolism in modern warfare and that having a ship the size of HMS Queen Elizabeth, which will be the navy’s biggest ever, was significant.

The sight of a heavily equipped 70,000 tonne carrier, which is almost 300 metres long, heading towards a potential enemy has an deterrent effect that is essential if the UK wants to project influence across the world Petitt claims.

“It is massively visible, you can range back in history and see the value of this. Everything from Nelson deterring Admiral Villeneuve from leaving Cadiz all the way to the big battleships of early 20th century, to what we are doing now.

The Americans use it all the time. We currently haven’t got this level of carrier capability. The bigger the capability the more influence you have to bear.”

So great is the impact of larger vessels as a deterrent, they’re often used as a geopolitical chess piece. American governments have, since the second world war, moved aircraft carriers around to demonstrate American resolve.

HMS Queen Elizabeth with the USS George H.W. Bush.

There’s historical precedent for the UK utilising this capability, in 1972 British Honduras was threatened with imminent invasion by Guatemalan paratroops. Britain’s response had to be immediate and decisive but there was only one deterrent the government could offer: HMS Ark Royal and her air wing. They were used successfully to deter invasion of the territory.

The particular benefits of using carriers in this way are that they operate on the high seas, where permission is not needed from other countries. Indeed, since modern US carriers are large and imposing they “show the flag” to great effect due to their sheer size alone. Equally, it is often argued that had the Royal Navy had two full sized carriers in 1982 it is more than possible that Argentina would not have attempted to take the Falklands in the first place.

Larger carriers don’t have to be packed to bursting point with aircraft to achieve their greatest effectiveness, even with fewer aircraft on board, a ship with a large flight deck can rearm and refuel aircraft much more quickly, this is typically why they allow for much higher sortie generation rates than smaller vessels.

HMS Queen Elizabeth, HMS Sutherland and HMS Iron Duke.

Aircraft Carrier Alliance Chief Engineer, Martin Douglass said:

“The Queen Elizabeth Class can fly 72 fast jet sorties per day – which can be increased if needed – and will give the UK a world class carrier strike capability for many years to come. She also has increased survivability because of the separation and distribution of power generation machinery throughout each ship.

The ship’s Artisan radar can track up to 800 potential targets at the same time and cut through radio ‘clutter’ generated by the equivalent of 10,000 mobile phones. The long range radar can track up to 1,000 contacts across a 250 mile radius both in the air or at sea. It’s an application of technology that’s already been proven on the Type 45s, but this time is linked to the Carrier’s organic capability to control a wide area of air and sea.”

HMS Queen Elizabeth seen from frigate HMS Iron Duke

The Key Numbers:

  • The project to build HMS Queen Elizabeth and sister ship HMS Prince of Wales cost more than £6 billion.
  • The aircraft carriers have a top speed well in excess of 25 knots.
  • The flight deck is 280 metres long and 70 metres wide – enough space for three football pitches.
  • The ship is the second in the Royal Navy to be named Queen Elizabeth.
  • The ship has a crew of around 800, increasing to 1,600 when a full complement of F-35 jets and Crowsnest helicopters are embarked.
  • There are 364,000 metres of pipes inside the ship.
  • Both HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales will keep 45 days’ worth of food in its stores.
  • The entire Ship’s Company can be served a meal within 90 minutes – 45 minutes when at action station.
  • Leaving the Rosyth dock was among the most difficult manoeuvres in the sea trials, with just 50cm between the bottom of the ship and the seabed in the port.

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David Steeper
Guest

Have to say every time I read or see these beauties I get a lump in my throat the size of a pineapple. Well I’m off now before I read one or a dozen of you complaining about no Sea Ceptor or god knows what else. Same point for god knows how many times the F35 is superior in range and lethality to any anti-air or ship missile in existence.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Agree David. Proud of them.

I have however called below for a decent air group now we have the things. Those wonderful F35 you mention and the real possibility they will be severely lacking in them.

Treat it as a complaint if you will!

Jack
Guest
Jack

I agree. They have already proved to be great assets for UK plc even before they have become fully operational. One critical point is that we will have two of them so a carrier is always available.
Carriers configured around fifth generation stealth fighters is not something many nations could even contemplate possessing.
With the first operational F35b flying from the deck of Queen Elizabeth this year followed by the entry of Prince of Wales into Portsmouth it’s a big year for Royal Navy carrier regeneration.

andy reeves
Guest

ffs another year of the royal navy/ my ar**

Lusty
Guest

I get a lump in my throat the size of a double-decker bus!

andy reeves
Guest
Robert Blay
Guest

Well said.

captain P Wash.
Guest
captain P Wash.

David, I’ve seen HMS Queen Elizabeth at Rosyth, Portsmouth and Off the Coast. A proper Impressive sight she Is Too. Standing In Gosport, you could hear her Heart Beating, well humming really. I’m hoping we’ll get to see her and HMS Prince of Wales together at some point this year.

andy reeves
Guest

can’t wait for a picture of her flight deck fully loaded

andy reeves
Guest

i still prefer the look of them without the ugly rahttps://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiwuNTb-_nfAhUDxoUKHTwCA_EQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=%2Furl%3Fsa%3Di%26source%3Dimages%26cd%3D%26ved%3D%26url%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.naval-technology.com%252Fprojects%252Fcvf%252F%26psig%3DAOvVaw0JFSdxGK92vft2rqbkiQAN%26ust%3D1547991459517539&psig=AOvVaw0JFSdxGK92vft2rqbkiQAN&ust=1547991459517539mp

andy reeves
Guest

?

David
Guest
David

Again – this story is nothing new. Rehashed.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Excellent.

Don’t now hamstring them by getting F35A instead of B meaning they can only be used in the most limited manner.

Also there are far, far too few Merlin HM2 to operate from Ships Flights, provide an OCU, take on the ASCS role from scrapped Sea King ASCS Mk7, be a single embarked ASW Squadron, and have any spare capacity whatsoever if the unexpected happens.

Extras as the situation demands like Chinook, Apache, Wildcat all catered for. I’m talking about the main group of F35 Merlin.

Lusty
Guest

Time for a new lease of life for the 12-15 Merlins in storage I think.

It’s more than enough airframes to replace the baggers, and give a few extra airframes for additional ASW or ‘Commando’ capabilities.

Yes, they have been used as Christmas Trees, but remember, the HC3 upgrade to HC4 is essentially replacing most of the aircraft and its systems anyway.

Steve Taylor
Guest

There might be 12 to 15 Merlins in storage. But I don’t think they are intact……..

We do desperately need to increase the number of Crowsnest sets available.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Agree with both of you Steve and Lusty.

I appreciate that Crowsnest is flexible and can be just attached as needed to a Merlin.
Still feel a dedicated Squadron using the HM1s would be a major bonus as we have just 30 HM2.

Lusty
Guest

Time to contact BAE for some of their famous glue to reattach the parts to them then.

Steve Taylor
Guest

I think the parts are attached, to other Merlins.

I do wonder how deep is the spares inventory for Merlins at sea? I remember seeing things like Seaking gearboxes in crates in Fort classes.

4thwatch
Guest
4thwatch

Comes a point when we need to look to have new build. I think it works out cheaper fairly rapidly.
12 to increase numbers for the 2 carriers and 12 for prudent planning; =24 overall.

Rudeboy
Guest
Rudeboy

12-15?

We only bought 44 and a number have been written off.

There are 8 HM.1 in total in Shawbury and the word on the street is you may as well build new for the cost to re-build them to HM.2 standard. In other words….its not going to happen.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Thanks. I too had heard of the number being 8.

Forget converting into HM2 and forgive my ignorance. IF they are flyable with resourcing spares could they take Crowsnest or do they need the HM2 standard to be compatable with it?

I keep reading it can be attached as required.

Or could they be used as a lower spec squadron in support of the RFA?

andy reeves
Guest

i’m wondering if the QE Will be able to operate the taranis drone, i’d have thought that a folding wing might be needed to hold them below decks

Cam Hunter
Guest
Cam Hunter

Very nice pieces of kit. I hope we design a sea tempest to go on these ships, but I very much doubt it unfortunately! To costly for so few jets onboard! ?

Robert Blay
Guest

Your talking about something that won’t be in service for another 20+ years, and it could be a host of systems, not just one aircraft type.

Sean
Guest
Sean

Given current progress, imagine what the capabilities of drones will be like 20 years from now. The need for human piloted aircraft on carriers will be much reduced.
An air wing might well be just 12 helios, 12 F35’s but with over 50 drones. Each drone capable of remote control from a lead F35, or from a command station either on the QE or back in the U.K., or full autonomous AI.
A ‘drone mode’ might well become a future operating mode in a future F35 software upgrade.

Cam Hunter
Guest
Cam Hunter

And! The carriers will be in service for 50 years….

andy reeves
Guest

i hope the tempest project involves stovl variant

Meiron X
Guest
Meiron X

It would be cheaper to convert the carriers to CATOBAR!

andy reeves
Guest

no ramp= parking space for 4 more f 35’s

Meiron X
Guest
Meiron X

Or space for carrier with 3 CAT’s.

Geoff
Guest
Geoff

Only one F-35 being delivered to UK this year. Whats that all about ?

andy reeves
Guest

its already been revealed that the target of aircraft produced last year was 60 below the target!

Steve Taylor
Guest

Let’s hope we don’t do anything silly now and let us concentrate on B and forget A. If we have to forgo A’s additional range so be it. We already have capability gaps every nation apart from US does have gaps. B has to be our expeditionary plane now even if the carrier is elsewhere. Typhoon should be the aircraft for home and established bases and the follow on big stick if it is needed. Let’s face it B is more aeroplane than most of the world’s nations can deploy anyway. And if we have to face off against a… Read more »

Steve Taylor
Guest

F35b………

comment image

Fat Dave
Guest
Fat Dave

Nice to see them but there remains no real credible reason for the UK to have aircraft carriers of this size. It really isn’t too late to sell them, notwithstanding the embarrassment, and reinvest the money and manpower saved into areas of Defence that actually need them. The 21st Century and beyond will see these carriers being as vulnerable as Renown and Prince of Wales quickly became in WW2. Only the US – and eventually China – will need carriers like this. Even if we keep the carriers, F-35A is a must buy option. Simply put, the A is a… Read more »

JohnH
Guest
JohnH

The carriers are the size they are because that is what is reqired to efficiently operate the F-35B. Many engineers and naval architects worked on it for years. Of course there are always going to be ill informed people who think thay know better.

Steve Taylor
Guest

“Of course there are always going to be ill informed people who think thay know better.” Fat Dave is entitled to his opinion. He has said nothing that is wrong technically. The question we have to ask is, for what were the carriers purchased? Now if it was purely fleet defence then yes we could have got away with much smaller hulls. The need to maintain cap, plus have a couple of FJ on stand by, plus operate ASaC and ASW helicopters we could have comfortably got away with 40k tonne hull. It wouldn’t have cost much less because the… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

With all due respect on your undermining comment regards the RAF and the A variant. Total nonsense!

Steve R
Guest
Steve R

There are plenty of reasons. Power projection. Without carriers of our own we are forced to rely on other nations to allow us the use of their air bases. If Argentina ever managed to capture the Falklands again, or even disable the runway at Mount Pleasant, we’d be unable to send a potent force to recapture the islands. No surrounding country would allow us the use of their airfields as they wouldn’t want to be seen to take sides. 2. A larger carrier allows more flexibility of operations and a higher sortie rate, as the article said. It makes the… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

“Advocates of the B model do Not wish at all to undermine the RAF. Simply, that with resources as limited as they are it makes more sense to have planes that can be operated from both land bases and carriers.” Pretty much my thinking. Why spend a vast sum and then be unable to fully utilise the QEC with aircraft if there is one 12 aircraft squadron, the other is deployed by the RAF elsewhere and the other 2 projected squadrons are the A model? The A is indeed welcome, once the ability to surge either 1 carrier or have… Read more »

Steve R
Guest
Steve R

To be honest we should have purchased the C variant and built the carriers around that. They could have been used from land or sea and have a similar range to A variant.

But what’s done is done and to tinker with anything now would be prohibitably expensive. This goes for the carrier or the planes themselves.

John Clark
Guest
John Clark

Steve, the core point of our carrier capability is to have a carrier available to respond at very short notice 24/7, 365 days a year. If we had the C variant, keeping a core of two squadrons ( and aircrew qualified) available to embark at all times would have been a massive strain. I think availability would in fact be substantially less than a B equipped carrier, unless we had four squadrons fully available. Any diversion to land based strike, would have disrupted the constant training regime needed to be fully carrier qualified and severely disrupted our carrier strike capability.… Read more »

Meiron X
Guest
Meiron X

An aircraft carrier sails in International waters, so aircraft can operate from a carrier in International airspace as well, and when land bases are denied.
And provide best means of protecting shipping from other hostile aircraft operating from land bases.

Britain has been a UN Security Council
member since WW2, that is a fact on the ground!

andy reeves
Guest

the best things to protect shipping lanes e.t.c are warships and submarines.

Meiron X
Guest
Meiron X

How can submarines protect ships from hostile aircraft??

andy reeves
Guest

remove the ugly ramp, angle the deck, and operate other aircraft,the f 35 is overpriced, unproven,reliability questionable, too much is being relied upon, if the tempest is the future, we better get a move on, or, it will be obsolete before it ever enters service

Russ
Guest
Russ

100,000 tonnes of diplomacy- as an American admiral said at the time – “only if they are properly armed and protected “ which is very much in doubt given its force protection’s is limited. It’s ok having the most powerful radar in the world to know you are going to get clobbered but if you have to use your aircraft for self defence against land based threats cos your destroyers can’t then your diplomatic clout becomes severely limited. Also our government is trying to do trade deals with every despot on the planet so the political will is not there.… Read more »

Cam Hunter
Guest
Cam Hunter

And that Navy admiral also said “we will go where we want and stay as long as we need”

andy reeves
Guest

i miss the mighty fine pub in pompey, and a dockyard with ships in it.

Simon
Guest
Simon

This F-35 A/B question is not as simple as looking at total procurement numbers. It is more about how Typhoon draws down and how Tempest replaces it. If you compare with F-15 and F-22 then it becomes obvious that sometimes the sheer cost of a next generation aircraft means you can’t buy enough to cover the tasks asked of it/them. I don’t really see a need for more than 80 F-35B and I would even settle for 60 leaving F-35A to back-fill a closed Tiffy production line whilst Tempest comes on-line. If we don’t buy all 138 F-35 however, then… Read more »

Simon
Guest
Simon

If we look at a fully equipped task force then we should be able to deploy:

24 F35
15 Merlin HM2
12 Merlin HC3
12 Wildcat HMA2

So before we try and load up any Apache, Chinook and Wildcat AH1 we’re already cramped for space on a QEC, LPD, LSD, six or so FF/DD and a couple of Tides.

Even with the aircraft numbers we’re signed up to having we litterally NEED an LPH 🙂

Julian
Guest
Julian

It’ll be interesting to see what hangar capacity the next generation FSS end up with. According to Wikipedia the 31,565t Fort Victoria has a 2 spot flight deck and hangar space for 3 Merlins (which I assume is all accurate information). With rumours that the next gen FSS will be closer to the 40,000t mark, and the size of the Tides would seem to point towards that, I’m hoping that the aviation facilities will at least match and ideally exceed those of Fort Victoria. That could be a very useful additional hangar capacity if we do end up building 3… Read more »

Simon
Guest
Simon

I’m trying to think of something that may happen in the not too distant future that would cause HMG to re-evaluate the LPDs and consider a couple of LHDs instead.

Andy
Guest

While talking about the new FSS it would be great if they were built in the UK.
Go to
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/235377

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

More realistic I feel.

12 to 24 F35B
9 Merlin HM2
4 Merlin HM2 Crowsnest.
3 Merlin HC3 as CSAR.

4 Wildcat on 2 T45 and 2 T23.

The Apache Chinook etc could come after or instead of as part of a Tailored Air Group.

Simon
Guest
Simon

That’s definitely more sustainable. However, I suggested “fully equipped” which really meant a carrier + amphib + RM task force. The RM then need copters for CASEVAC, VERTREP and movement around the battlefield. Interesting you would choose to put a Wildcat on your T23. Personally I’d put a Merlin on them as they are the ASW copter and you’d have two dedicated spots up-threat of the HVU ready to go. The carrier simply maintains them and sustains the flights with another 6-8 cabs. That leaves the carrier to operate jets and AEW on a routine basis. I’d also have the… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

I quite agree on the Merlin / Wildcat for T23 Simon.

I stated Wildcat simply because we have too few Merlin! And I believe 815 NAS has ships flights for the 19 Escorts we have left.

Understood on amphib group in your first list. Cheers.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

But point taken the HM2 could in effect be forward deployed on the ASW ship and space reserved on the carrier.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Merlin HM2 for CSR?

I meant the role that was trialled by the RAF Reg and now looked into by the RM for Joint Personnel Recovery from potentially hostile territory, would you still use a precious resource such as a Merlin HM2 for that?

Simon
Guest
Simon

Daniele,

Actually I was talking about SAR (an additional HM2 in the AEW rotation ready to launch, not just to take the place of the AEW about to land, but also for SAR emergencies caused by jet launch or land problems).

Inland CSR would, as you rightly suggest, be HC3.

Pacman27
Guest
Pacman27

Simon A single QEC can hold 72 F35B’s as well as various helicopters, this is certainly surge conditions, but realistically we should aim for a minimum of 24 F35’s as standard, anything else is wasteful in my opinion. With escorts you can add in 12 helicopters (if we built Karel Doorman’s for our SSS each can hold 6 Merlins). So we could end up with a fardenser air wing if we chose to. The fact is we need to invest in our military and our military needs to consolidate on fewer large platforms and stop wasting the valuable resources it… Read more »

David E Flandry
Guest
David E Flandry

In the meantime, an air wing with 24 F-35 is more powerful than the entire Argentine air force.
It alone will prevent another Falklands war, making it worth the money spent on it.

Mr Bell
Guest

David the 4 typhoons on mount pleasant are currently no powerful then the entire Argentine air force. They have no fast combat jets left, just home built Puccara turboprops. If Argentina reinvigorated it’s Airforce with jets purchased from China or Russia we would just increase the Eurofighter component on the islands up from 4 to 8 or 12.
Also the islands airbase is due to get FLADS very soon. Land based SeaCeptor.
Argentina would need to purchase 36 high performance jets at least to threaten the islands whilst hoping a type 45 is not around to shot them all down.

andy reeves
Guest

remove the superstructure of a bay class, stick a full deck on it and you’ve a good size h.l.p

andy reeves
Guest

lockheed have admitted to having built 60 f 35’s less than was expected by the time the u.k gets its full order they’ll be obsolete.

andy reeves
Guest

we’re not going to get one,we should go back to revit how the first carriers were adapted from merchant ships i’d like a bay class with the superstructure, removed,and a full deck fitted.

Nigel Collins
Guest
Nigel Collins

Would anyone know if room exists for the additional fitting of searam onboard the carriers?
Thank you in advance.

https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/searam

Steve Taylor
Guest

SeaRam sort of sits between CIWS and PDMS like SeaCeptor; it sort of complements both. To be effective it would be need to be placed where the Phalanx will be / are mounted as that would be optimum. Perhaps it would be better to wonder whether we could fit a better CIWS than Phalanx and the fit SeaCeptor? I am never sure about missiles overflying flight decks even with ‘cold launches’. Guns/trainable missiles below flight deck level are a different matter.

DaveyB
Guest
DaveyB

According to the ACA blurb the QE class are designed to be fitted with SeaCeptor. When/If, who knows but the space near the forward starboard phalanx was supposedly earmarked for SeaCeptor.

andy reeves
Guest

i for one are one are sick of the designed for but not with mentality, they are warships, so enable them to fight.i’d go for a searam on the albions as well, they’d easily fit on the ‘pointy end’

andy reeves
Guest

the chassis is broadly the same size as a phalanx, so swapping one of those for searam could be an idea.

captain P Wash.
Guest
captain P Wash.

The whole Thorney subject of whether or not the Carriers should be fitted with Sea Ram, Ceptor or any other Defensive hardware has been done to death, I can see the point David Is making. The fact Is, They are not and most probably never will be fitted. Layered defence Is what we are working with and when you look at the actual Equipment providing that, you know what ?, It ain’t so bad really. T45, T23/26/31, Astute, F35, Merlin, Chinook, Apache, Wildcat, Phalanx, Viper, Ceptor, Spearfish, Harpoon, 30mm, 12.7mm Not to mention the Worlds finest Pilots, Sailors, Marines and… Read more »

andy reeves
Guest

the land ceptor might be worth a punt park it below deck,get a sailor with a HGV licence to park it in the best place, and go from there

Pavel
Guest
Pavel

Why they choose this weird shape for aircraft carrier. Why not build the ship like French did?

Alex
Guest
Alex

Good

Ivan Kalot
Guest
Ivan Kalot

yoo englsh has too ov these biggy bote fings an wee Has nun, wee giv chinky Slit eye arsols biggy lawnchy bote too yuse ass Gambolin bote an vey do reebild an has all new bote four planey stuff wiv big banggy gun guns . Wee hast need four Bote wiv Wizzy planes too attach thee Rusky Scrum Internally Proobin ower Womans an Backsides Lung liv Ukrane

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Queue?

Where’s the Captain? He understands gibberish.

captain P Wash.
Guest
captain P Wash.

Feck, hang on Daniele, I’ll go Translate.

captain P Wash.
Guest
captain P Wash.

You English have two Big Boats. and They have none as they Sold theirs to China as a casino. Which was re built as an aircraft carrier and their women keep getting Poked by the Russians from behind.

Or words to that effect !!!!!
I’m loving this Translation Challenge, truth be known. Ivan, Give Us some more .

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

I knew you would not let us down captain.

LOL!!

Levi Goldsteinberg
Guest

yoo englsh has too ov these biggy bote fings an wee Has nun, wee giv chinky Slit eye arsols biggy lawnchy bote too yuse ass Gambolin bote an vey do reebild an has all new bote four planey stuff wiv big banggy gun guns . Wee hast need four Bote wiv Wizzy planes too attach thee Rusky Scrum Internally Proobin ower Womans an Backsides Lung liv Ukrane Lets go for the whole lot: You Britons have two of these large ships and we have none; we gave the Chinese slitty-eyed arseholes a big aircraft carrier to use as a gambling… Read more »

captain P Wash.
Guest
captain P Wash.

Levi, I think He’s referring to Planes to attack Russian Scum who are infiltrating ? then something happening to their Women, I think. lol.

andy reeves
Guest

weirdo

David E Flandry
Guest
David E Flandry

Yes, I agree entirely, supposedly, Ivan. ( I took Gibberish in college but never had a chance to use it.)

captain P Wash.
Guest
captain P Wash.

Ha, I’m Effluent in Gibberish Too, some on here think I type Effluent !!!!

andy reeves
Guest

whatever you are sniffing/smoking, the n.h.s will pay a fortune for it.

Simon
Guest
Simon

We also have 1600 Mk1 eyeballs and shoulder-launched HVMs (Starstreak).

captain P Wash.
Guest
captain P Wash.

Ha, Simon, You’re not wrong mate. MK1 Eyeballs are the best and have been for Centuries.

Basil
Guest

I cannot see the point in having excessive aviation space on the new store supply ships . The operation of three Merlin’s is the absolute maximum that can be effectively operated. Hanger space for two with a third stored on the flight deck is all that the Forts can achieve. This requires complex manourvering and timing of flying Operations to ensure a safe flying environment, ie always keeping space for an emergency landing. In addition any more Aircraft would require doubling hangar size, more manpower, stores, weapon handling, fuel and spares. From past experience two ASW Sea Kings was the… Read more »

captain P Wash.
Guest
captain P Wash.

Basil, I think It’s a Reaction to Selling HMS Ocean to Brazil, who will probably operate her for at least 20 years more than “We” deemed her “Operational”. She was after all “Worn Out ” after being used Extensively for 20 years”. and all of a sudden, We don’t need her at all any more. forgive my Cynicism.

andy reeves
Guest

the logic behind the thinking at the m.o.d will never be clear.

Steve Taylor
Guest

Yes. But can you have too many flight deck spots or hangars. They are big ships. It adds little to the cost to have them. The aviation facilities use ‘volume’ that would be empty anyway. No weapon arcs to worry about. Just because you have the space it doesn’t mean you have to buy helicopters to use from, but who knows if you will need at some point in the future. What if say a helicopter needs to divert in an emergency? etc.

andy reeves
Guest

i’d hope in the future that a chopper based ceptor like system will be developed.

Pacman27
Guest
Pacman27

Basil I take your point and for normal operations I agree, however if the UK were to standardise its large RFA and amphibious platforms onto a Aegir based Karel Doorman design, that allows for a whole new level of flexibility. With some careful design we could have a platform that when matched with the appropriate enabling platforms can take on a large number of roles independently and then in a war time situation scale up to a higher tempo of operations that is higher risk. For me it is about options – a Karel Doorman in LHP role could hold… Read more »

JohnHartley
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JohnHartley

It is great to see the RN back in the big carrier business, but the carrier group needs enough escorts/tankers/stores ships, to keep it on station for any length of time. I think QE/PoW really need some MV-22/CMV-22 if we are to make the most of them. Lord knows how you find the money for them though. Probably going to remain on the wish list for a long time. Also, which version of the F-35B? I think we should wait for the block 4 hard & software + engine upgrade 2.0. around 2023-4. The UK does not need 138 F-35B.… Read more »

captain P Wash.
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captain P Wash.

But, We are Seriously Scrapping the Barrel as far as Aircraft numbers are concerned . Tornado’s are off, Typhoons are minimal, F35’s are on long lead Order. I hope to Allah that we don’t actually have any proper hardcore War any time soon.
Go and have a look at the Numbers mate, It’s Seriously low, Lower than anytime since the RFC was formed.
It takes a lot longer to build a Typhoon than It did to build an SE2b.

JohnHartley
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JohnHartley

Nothing I said was in favour of low numbers. On previous threads, I have pointed out that the RAF had 400 combat jets in the 1970s, when the UK was broke & had to call the IMF in. I think the Tornado is being retired too soon in comparison to Italian, Saudi & German Tornados. Probably, too late to change that. So lets have all the RAF Typhoon in service rather than sitting in sheds. Perhaps we should prove we are good Europeans by buying the German proposed tranche 4 Typhoon. 24 would cover the missing RAF Typhoon that were… Read more »

captain P Wash.
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captain P Wash.

John, I know. I was just saying about the low numbers generally.

JohnHartley
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JohnHartley

Agreed. The low numbers of fast jets, escorts, tanks, artillery, helicopters + the brave bods to man them, is quite worrying considering how mad the World is now.

Meiron X
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Meiron X

The RAF has really got enough Typhoon’s, mainly use as ‘hanger Queens’!
But it is a Manpower problem that the RAF has, insufficient crews and pilots to man Squadrons. Which also results in smaller squadrons.
Half of the Typhoon’s procured are in strorage.
Also half of the new crews and pilots for the F-35B will be FAA(Navy), and 2nd F-35B squadron, will be 809 NAS(Navy) standing up in 2023. Plus 207 Squadron (OCU) is standing up in 2019.

andy reeves
Guest

how about a stealth batch 3 sopwith camel?

Steve R
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Steve R

I disagree here. For starters the 138 is, sadly, over the life of the program and were unlikely to have more than 80-90 in our inventory at any one time. The current plan is 4 frontline squadrons, so that’s 48 planes. Plus an OCU squadron, thatd be 10 planes, say. Perhaps the same again for test and evaluation. So say 68 to 70 planes. The rest will be spare airframes; used as replacements for planes lost in combat, accidents, or simply to rotate to prevent wear and tear. Ideally we should have 5-6 squadrons of F35; That’d be 60-72 frontline… Read more »

Frank62
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Frank62

They need a SAM system, a larger pool of escorts & for enough F35Bs to be operational at any time to ever be capable of a surge effort. Aster 15 would be ideal.

Pacman27
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Pacman27

Frank

I think Aster 15 should be upgraded to Aster 30 (additional booster) and we should standardise our short range weapons on SeaCeptor.

If we take the recent programme for HMS Duncan, it has 48 Silo’s – so 48 Asters. If we used Seaceptor it could have 32 Aster 30’s and 48 Seaceptors (quadpacked). This gives it far more capability to defend against a swarm attack.

Aster 15 for me has been superseded by Seaceptor, luckily it can be upgraded so no real wastage here. Let’s get Seaceptor bought in volume and upgrade all asters to 30 or NT status.

Steve
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Steve

I think we all agree that they should have been built with missile defence onboard but we have to be realistic and now they are built it would be too expensive to add them, when money is needed more urgently on other capabilities. I do however wonder why the decision was orginally made not to include them, when you would think adding during initial build would have been a tiny increase in overall cosf, but maybe it was a case they had a choice of cut to the bones cost wise or only have one carrier.

andy reeves
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an aspect of the design is that, sufficient sponson space is available ,say for SEARAM.or whatever. hower any company company with a heavy fabrication ability could build ‘bolt on sponsons for fitting in a dockyard setting

Ron
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Ron

In many ways I like these carriers, and they do have a lot of potential for the future. As one of my American colleagues said the Royal Navy has skipped a generation of costs and when the T26s come on line would have one of the most formidable carrier strike groups going. However I still wonder if the MoD missed a trick. When the plans were starting to be formed about the carriers back in the late 1990s I wondered if the MoD and the UK as a whole could afford two carriers. So I asked myself the question would… Read more »

captain P Wash.
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captain P Wash.

Not sure they need one ? Good question though.

DaveyB
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DaveyB

All the deck photos show it doesn’t have an emergency crash barrier. The reason I believe it needs one is quite simple. So that the F35B can carry out vertical or the rolling landing technique, it requires an additional engine inlet door, two opposing sets of lift fan doors and the exhaust nozzle doors to open. If for some reason one of these doors fails to open from a bird strike or battle damage – what does the pilot do? If they are operating close to the coast it’s not a problem, but in the middle of the Atlantic, Pacific… Read more »

andy reeves
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we should have designed the harrier with stealth, power upgrades. if we could have done that, and the 72 retired harriers would have been available from minute 1 TOO MUCH HOPE IS INVESTED IN THE ABILITIES OF THE F 35B

Johnf
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Johnf

Let the NAVY have all the F35B, and give the RAF some more Eurofighters, maybe a bunch of F16 or similar, and a medium/heavy bomber, with a decent bomb load and range. Yes I know it wont happen, our political pygmies have decided that we can only be a vassal state to the EU and we need to be more like Belgium. We keep reducing our fighter and bombing capability- in range and bomb load. Our military planners have to work with the limited range of the eurofighter and the minimal range of the F35B, but then it was designed… Read more »

Steve R
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Steve R

What are these more capable aircraft of which you speak? Long range heavy bombers? Those are slow and vulnerable. If shit hit the fan against Russia or China it’s not going to be F35s, Typhoons or US F22s being blown out of the sky each night, it’ll be the B52s. The reason that range and payload is reduced is a natural payoff for stealth capabilities. F35B has a reduced payload compared to Tornado but still better than Harrier at sea; at least F35 won’t have to ditch unused weapons to be able to land vertically like the Harrier did. Similarly,… Read more »

Pacman27
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Pacman27

I really do think that the Tornado fleet should be replaced with Taranis/Magma. I see the F35 taking off with 2 of the drones and the F35 doing all the intelligence, blocking, electronic jamming and sending the drones onto target several hundred miles further forward, giving us a deep strike capability. It also allows the F35 to carry more defensive weapons and th taranis to carry the strike payload. Benefits of this are cost, risk reduction and scale. Cost: A taranis should cost at leas 1/4 of a T35 or Typhoon and does not need an additional pilot ( I… Read more »

Meiron X
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Meiron X

Pacman27#, I am afraid your idea is a bit ridiculous, sorry! So a F-35 carries two 4 metre drones which are launched from the F-35 bomb bay, which flies to the target and
releases bombs, so what size are those bombs? They certainly will be a lot smaller than the size of the drone, most likely Brimstone size, which has small explosive power, not heavy weight bombs!

Meirion X
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Meirion X

Drones like Taranis are limited in range, about the same as the Hawk jet, uses same engine and size.

Elliott
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Elliott

Steve R on heavy bombers being vulnerable. You do realize B52s and B-1Bs wouldn’t be “Bombing” anything. They would be launching missiles like JASSM-ER and LRASM at extreme range. Their would be no shooting them down as their would be no opportunity to at that range. By the time Air Defense knew they were there they would have several dozen (20 per plane) if not over a hundred if multiple B52 squadrons were used, missiles landing on their runways, hangars, ammunition dumps, radars, and other early warning stations. To shoot them down with fighters on CAP you would have to… Read more »

Steve R
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Steve R

The US is indeed building the B21 Raider… at over half a billion dollars per unit. For any country bar the USA that’s unaffordable. Typhoons could do the same job with Storm Shadow, refuelling en route and on the way back if needed. For the cost of a single Raider we could have 4 Typhoons and a refuelling tanker… and the Typhoons could still engage enemy aircraft if they had to. We can’t afford a fleet of heavy bombers any more, or really any aircraft that serves only one purpose. Which is why most countries chose multirole aircraft as one… Read more »

JohnHartley
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JohnHartley

In 1982, the shiny new Tornados were useless as they did not have the range, but the ancient Vulcan did (assisted by many Victor tankers).
Typhoons are great, but only if they can reach the enemy. If not, they are expensive ornaments.
I don’t think it would happen, but I would be very happy if the RAF had one Sqn of 6 to 8 B-21 bombers.(or second hand B-1s).

captain P Wash.
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captain P Wash.

Steve R , Personally, I think It’s unaffordable for them too. It’s a bit like, “The Last Days of Empire” What we are seeing Is a Bankrupt Nation spending way more than they can actually afford in the long term. It’s the way of the World. History Repeats Itself, Time and Time again. A few years back there was talk of a New World Order, Well I personally think It’s here, The Bizarre thing Is, I don’t think Its China, Russia or Asia, I also don’t think It’s Islamic either. You’ll All laugh at this but, I believe Brexit will… Read more »

Meiron X
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Meiron X

If Russia can afford 8 Squadrons of Tu22’s, Tu95’s, Tu160, I am sure the UK with an economy over twice as big can afford strategic bombers!

andy reeves
Guest

if the u.s turn up.

rec
Guest
rec

They are only a symbol if they have a full air wing and for that the RN actually needs more F35bs, and more Merlin HM2s, and delivered at a faster pace than they are now. Other wise basically they will be like HMS Hood, great for world cruises but no good in combat.

Steve R
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Steve R

They’ll likely never see their full potential but they’ll still be a potent asset. Even with 24 F35s on it that’s still enough to make a lot of potential adversaries think twice.

If we could buy enough F35s to fill them with 36 jets each plus helicopters, and get 10 T31s to add to the T45s and T26s, and a few more Astutes, then we’d have a mighty fleet indeed!

andy reeves
Guest

the carriers should never put to sea without a full escort an air wing embarked.

Rec
Guest
Rec

Steve,
I think the only way adequate numbers of Astutes, SSKs, escorts, Helicopter s etc Let alone what might pass as adequate UK air defence, and a more capable army in the current economic climate. Is to bite the bullet and not replace Trident, if we need a nuclear deterrent then a minimal one based on cruise missiles on SSNs. And free fall bombs on Terrains/ F35a. I would go for a split buy F35 in these circumstances, 80 F35B Royal Navy only, 60F35A RAF.

captain P Wash.
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captain P Wash.

And In ten Years time, We will Cut all that too.

Steve R
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Steve R

It wouldn’t even need that; just build 4 more Astutes modified for Trident missiles. They’re built in modules anyway so wouldn’t be too much to put a ballistic missile module in.

Regular Astutes are £1.4 billion; say the modifications take them up to £2billion each that’s still a fraction of the cost of Dreadnought. Savings could go towards the rest of the fleet, and defence as a whole.

Meiron X
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Meiron X

The Trident D5 missile will Not fit the Astute class submarine!
A new medium range missile will need to be developed.

Steve R
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Steve R

Wouldn’t need to be an Astute per say; a new sub based on the Astute, simply larger with a compartment that will fit the D5 missiles.

Meiron X
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Meiron X

A sub. based on the Astute would need to be a similar size of Vanguard subs, because Trident D5 is 13.5 meters, the Astute hull is only 11.5 meters in diameter. Only Trident C4, which is 10.2 meters or a Polaris missile would fit in the Astute class sub.
I am not sure what the USN did with the Trident C4’s, they did have a range of 4300M.

Meiron X
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Meiron X

An new Astute type of sub the size of Vanguard, which is big enough to fit D5 missile, would cost much more then £2 billion!

andy reeves
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£1.4 billion for 1 astute, 100 million for a conventional powered submarine? that’s why it won’t happen,

dave12
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dave12

Hes ukraine give him some respect and a spell checker ,but which one of you guys knows how to speak ukraine??? at least he tries.

Basil
Guest

Crickey, this post is all over the place, The only bit missing is a discussion in tanks! Just to remind to the new stores ship bit: the problem of having multi roles vessels is that they lead to a reduction in overall numbers and capacity. If we had semi LPDD/ stores ships with aviation facilities for ASW Merlins: come the pressure of war, The vessel cannot be a useful stores supply asset whilst embarking hundreds of troops and kit, whilst being part of a ASW Screen offshore. There is a logic to separating out core roles. Unfortunately this is the… Read more »

andy reeves
Guest

acquiring and adapting roll on roll off ships and adapting them to military specs would make sense

Steve Taylor
Guest

There are rumours we are about to flog the Brazilians one or both of the Waves, a couple of T23’s, the B1 Rivers, and possibly some Hunts.

Keithdwat
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Keithdwat

I mean hopefully it’s not as bad as it sounds, and it’s far from confirmed anyway! But we have some T23s available in 4 years anyway, so they will be available for sale anyway. As for the B1 Rivers, hopefully they only mean HMS Clyde which is already expected for sale next/this year, the other B1s were confirmed to be forward deployed around the country, we are already gaining 4 OPVs with the B2s and B1s. As for the hunts MCMs,we already have two lying up decommissioned from the 2015 SDSR, Quorn and ???. Not a huge loss there, I… Read more »

andy reeves
Guest

maybe we should have both of the type 22’s we sold them back. big, reliable platforms that were retired/sold too soon

Peter french
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Peter french

Well this piece has given the usual arm chair Admirals and experts a chance to vent their .they believe ,superior knowledge ,however I would add that having ability tp project power is dependent on the political will to use it. This is where we have to face the possibility of a Corbyn Goverment which will negate any use of Military power any where. Indeed i suspect the Defence budget will be radically reduced and we become just a bystander in World affairs

andy reeves
Guest

now now, respect to the admirals. WITHOUT THEM THIS SITE WOULDN’T EXIST.KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, SHAME THE U.K DOESN’T HAVE ANY.

Basil
Guest

Mr French being an arm chair polititian venting his supposed superior political knowledge.