Aircraft carriers are a symbol of national status, the technical capability required to build them and the resources required to operate them globally aren’t attainable for most nations.

The Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers are the largest surface warships ever constructed for the Royal Navy and will represent a significant increase in capability. The vessels will be utilised by all three branches of the UK Armed Forces and will provide eight acres of sovereign territory. Both ships

are versatile enough to be used for operations ranging from high intensity conflict to providing humanitarian aid and disaster relief.

F-35B jets on HMS Queen Elizabeth.

The 1998 defence review identified that aircraft carriers offered the following:

  • Ability to operate offensive aircraft abroad when foreign basing may be denied.
  • All required space and infrastructure; where foreign bases are available they are not always available early in a conflict and infrastructure is often lacking.
  • A coercive and deterrent effect when deployed to a trouble spot.

Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope, former First Sea Lord, has said, “To put it simply, countries that aspire to strategic international influence have aircraft carriers”. Henry Kissinger, while United States Secretary of State, also said: “An aircraft carrier is 100,000 tons of diplomacy”.

American MV-22B lands on HMS Queen Elizabeth.

Lieutenant Colonel Mark Searight Royal Marines, explained the importance of HMS Queen Elizabeth and her capabilities.

“HMS Queen Elizabeth will maintain the United Kingdom’s ability to have a forward-based strategic conventional deterrent which has the ability not only to conduct strike operations with the F-35B, which is its primary role, but also to have an Embarked Military Force that is fully trained and ready to be projected ashore to conduct tasks that might arise.

That might be soft power for defence engagement, all the way through to humanitarian and disaster relief and war fighting. This training is part of the initial work-up to achieve that. The training has gone really well. It’s been an education to the Ship’s Company on what the LPH role will entail, and there has also been education to those who assist me to achieve aviation assault operations: Assault guides, FLYCO, the Logistics department who make sure they can sustain the operation and troops sufficiently; the ammunition personnel in the Air Engineering Department who make sure we have got the right ammunition. It’s a complex process.”

HMS Queen Elizabeth leaves Gibraltar.

When will they be fully operational?

SaveTheRoyalNavy.org have this fantastic infographic here.

Preview, click to visit full sized image.

What will the vessels carry?

The term now used for the carriers embarked squadrons is ‘Carrier Air Wing’ (CVW). The vessels are capable of deploying a variety of aircraft in large numbers, up to a maximum in the upper fifties in surge conditions.

F-35B on HMS Queen Elizabeth.

Captain Jerry Kyd, former commander of HMS Queen Elizabeth, commented on the initial deployment and the gradual increase in air wing numbers:

“We are constrained by the F-35 buy rate even though that was accelerated in SDSR in 2015, so initial operating capability numbers in 2020 are going to be very modest indeed.

We will flesh it out with helicopters, and a lot depends on how many USMC F-35s come on our first deployment in 2021. But by 2023, we are committed to 24 UK jets onboard, and after that it’s too far away to say.”

In addition to the joint force of Royal Air Force and Royal Navy F-35Bs and their pilots, the air wing is expected to be composed of a ‘Maritime Force Protection’ package of nine anti-submarine Merlin HM2 and four or five Merlin for airborne early warning; alternatively a ‘Littoral Manoeuvre’ package could include a mix of RAF Chinooks, Army Apaches, Merlin HC4 and Wildcat HM2. Sources close to the programme assure me that the vessel would still carry at least one F-35 squadron aboard in such circumstances to offer air defence as well as support to the helicopter assault activities.

The Crowsnest AEW&C aircraft will come from a number of the embarked Merlins (any of which can be fitted with the sensor package), the number again scaling with requirements.

Around the time the first carrier deploys operationally, the UK will have 42 F-35 aircraft, with 24 being front-line fighters and the remaining 18 will be used for training (at least 5 on the OCU), be in reserve or in maintenance.

What is the ‘deterrent effect’?

The view of the deterrent effect these vessels will have has been expressed frequently in defence circles, with the First Sea Lord last year stating that the Queen Elizabeth class supercarriers will represent a “powerful and important strategic conventional deterrent”. Admiral Sir Philip Jones First Sea Lord and Chief of Naval Staff said:

“HMS Queen Elizabeth is the first carrier in the world designed from the outset to operate a fifth generation combat aircraft. Crucially, a second ship – HMS Prince of Wales – is on its way, which will give the UK a continuous Carrier Strike capability. I have every expectation that, in time, this combination of carriers and jets will represent a powerful and important strategic conventional deterrent.”

The ships former commanding officer, Captain Simon Petitt, rightfully pointed out in 2016=7 that there is a lot of symbolism in modern warfare and that having a ship the size of HMS Queen Elizabeth, which will be the navy’s biggest ever, was significant.

The sight of a heavily equipped 70,000 tonne carrier, which is almost 300 metres long, heading towards a potential enemy has an deterrent effect that is essential if the UK wants to project influence across the world Petitt claims.

“It is massively visible, you can range back in history and see the value of this. Everything from Nelson deterring Admiral Villeneuve from leaving Cadiz all the way to the big battleships of early 20th century, to what we are doing now.

The Americans use it all the time. We currently haven’t got this level of carrier capability. The bigger the capability the more influence you have to bear.”

So great is the impact of larger vessels as a deterrent, they’re often used as a geopolitical chess piece. American governments have, since the second world war, moved aircraft carriers around to demonstrate American resolve.

HMS Queen Elizabeth with the USS George H.W. Bush.

There’s historical precedent for the UK utilising this capability, in 1972 British Honduras was threatened with imminent invasion by Guatemalan paratroops. Britain’s response had to be immediate and decisive but there was only one deterrent the government could offer: HMS Ark Royal and her air wing. They were used successfully to deter invasion of the territory.

The particular benefits of using carriers in this way are that they operate on the high seas, where permission is not needed from other countries. Indeed, since modern US carriers are large and imposing they “show the flag” to great effect due to their sheer size alone. Equally, it is often argued that had the Royal Navy had two full sized carriers in 1982 it is more than possible that Argentina would not have attempted to take the Falklands in the first place.

Larger carriers don’t have to be packed to bursting point with aircraft to achieve their greatest effectiveness, even with fewer aircraft on board, a ship with a large flight deck can rearm and refuel aircraft much more quickly, this is typically why they allow for much higher sortie generation rates than smaller vessels.

HMS Queen Elizabeth, HMS Sutherland and HMS Iron Duke.

Aircraft Carrier Alliance Chief Engineer, Martin Douglass said:

“The Queen Elizabeth Class can fly 72 fast jet sorties per day – which can be increased if needed – and will give the UK a world class carrier strike capability for many years to come. She also has increased survivability because of the separation and distribution of power generation machinery throughout each ship.

The ship’s Artisan radar can track up to 800 potential targets at the same time and cut through radio ‘clutter’ generated by the equivalent of 10,000 mobile phones. The long range radar can track up to 1,000 contacts across a 250 mile radius both in the air or at sea. It’s an application of technology that’s already been proven on the Type 45s, but this time is linked to the Carrier’s organic capability to control a wide area of air and sea.”

HMS Queen Elizabeth seen from frigate HMS Iron Duke

The Key Numbers:

  • The project to build HMS Queen Elizabeth and sister ship HMS Prince of Wales cost more than £6 billion.
  • The aircraft carriers have a top speed well in excess of 25 knots.
  • The flight deck is 280 metres long and 70 metres wide – enough space for three football pitches.
  • The ship is the second in the Royal Navy to be named Queen Elizabeth.
  • The ship has a crew of around 800, increasing to 1,600 when a full complement of F-35 jets and Crowsnest helicopters are embarked.
  • There are 364,000 metres of pipes inside the ship.
  • Both HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales will keep 45 days’ worth of food in its stores.
  • The entire Ship’s Company can be served a meal within 90 minutes – 45 minutes when at action station.
  • Leaving the Rosyth dock was among the most difficult manoeuvres in the sea trials, with just 50cm between the bottom of the ship and the seabed in the port.
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George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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David Steeper
David Steeper
5 years ago

Have to say every time I read or see these beauties I get a lump in my throat the size of a pineapple. Well I’m off now before I read one or a dozen of you complaining about no Sea Ceptor or god knows what else. Same point for god knows how many times the F35 is superior in range and lethality to any anti-air or ship missile in existence.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 years ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Agree David. Proud of them.

I have however called below for a decent air group now we have the things. Those wonderful F35 you mention and the real possibility they will be severely lacking in them.

Treat it as a complaint if you will!

Jack
Jack
5 years ago
Reply to  David Steeper

I agree. They have already proved to be great assets for UK plc even before they have become fully operational. One critical point is that we will have two of them so a carrier is always available.
Carriers configured around fifth generation stealth fighters is not something many nations could even contemplate possessing.
With the first operational F35b flying from the deck of Queen Elizabeth this year followed by the entry of Prince of Wales into Portsmouth it’s a big year for Royal Navy carrier regeneration.

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Jack

ffs another year of the royal navy/ my ar**

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
5 years ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Well said.

captain P Wash.
captain P Wash.
5 years ago
Reply to  David Steeper

David, I’ve seen HMS Queen Elizabeth at Rosyth, Portsmouth and Off the Coast. A proper Impressive sight she Is Too. Standing In Gosport, you could hear her Heart Beating, well humming really. I’m hoping we’ll get to see her and HMS Prince of Wales together at some point this year.

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  David Steeper

can’t wait for a picture of her flight deck fully loaded

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  David Steeper

i still prefer the look of them without the ugly rahttps://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiwuNTb-_nfAhUDxoUKHTwCA_EQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=%2Furl%3Fsa%3Di%26source%3Dimages%26cd%3D%26ved%3D%26url%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.naval-technology.com%252Fprojects%252Fcvf%252F%26psig%3DAOvVaw0JFSdxGK92vft2rqbkiQAN%26ust%3D1547991459517539&psig=AOvVaw0JFSdxGK92vft2rqbkiQAN&ust=1547991459517539mp

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  andy reeves

?

David
David
5 years ago

Again – this story is nothing new. Rehashed.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 years ago

Excellent.

Don’t now hamstring them by getting F35A instead of B meaning they can only be used in the most limited manner.

Also there are far, far too few Merlin HM2 to operate from Ships Flights, provide an OCU, take on the ASCS role from scrapped Sea King ASCS Mk7, be a single embarked ASW Squadron, and have any spare capacity whatsoever if the unexpected happens.

Extras as the situation demands like Chinook, Apache, Wildcat all catered for. I’m talking about the main group of F35 Merlin.

Lusty
Lusty
5 years ago

Time for a new lease of life for the 12-15 Merlins in storage I think.

It’s more than enough airframes to replace the baggers, and give a few extra airframes for additional ASW or ‘Commando’ capabilities.

Yes, they have been used as Christmas Trees, but remember, the HC3 upgrade to HC4 is essentially replacing most of the aircraft and its systems anyway.

Steve Taylor
5 years ago
Reply to  Lusty

There might be 12 to 15 Merlins in storage. But I don’t think they are intact……..

We do desperately need to increase the number of Crowsnest sets available.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Taylor

Agree with both of you Steve and Lusty.

I appreciate that Crowsnest is flexible and can be just attached as needed to a Merlin.
Still feel a dedicated Squadron using the HM1s would be a major bonus as we have just 30 HM2.

Lusty
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Taylor

Time to contact BAE for some of their famous glue to reattach the parts to them then.

Steve Taylor
5 years ago
Reply to  Lusty

I think the parts are attached, to other Merlins.

I do wonder how deep is the spares inventory for Merlins at sea? I remember seeing things like Seaking gearboxes in crates in Fort classes.

4thwatch
4thwatch
5 years ago
Reply to  Lusty

Comes a point when we need to look to have new build. I think it works out cheaper fairly rapidly.
12 to increase numbers for the 2 carriers and 12 for prudent planning; =24 overall.

Rudeboy
Rudeboy
5 years ago
Reply to  Lusty

12-15?

We only bought 44 and a number have been written off.

There are 8 HM.1 in total in Shawbury and the word on the street is you may as well build new for the cost to re-build them to HM.2 standard. In other words….its not going to happen.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 years ago
Reply to  Rudeboy

Thanks. I too had heard of the number being 8.

Forget converting into HM2 and forgive my ignorance. IF they are flyable with resourcing spares could they take Crowsnest or do they need the HM2 standard to be compatable with it?

I keep reading it can be attached as required.

Or could they be used as a lower spec squadron in support of the RFA?

andy reeves
5 years ago

i’m wondering if the QE Will be able to operate the taranis drone, i’d have thought that a folding wing might be needed to hold them below decks

Cam Hunter
Cam Hunter
5 years ago

Very nice pieces of kit. I hope we design a sea tempest to go on these ships, but I very much doubt it unfortunately! To costly for so few jets onboard! ?

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
5 years ago
Reply to  Cam Hunter

Your talking about something that won’t be in service for another 20+ years, and it could be a host of systems, not just one aircraft type.

Sean
Sean
5 years ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Given current progress, imagine what the capabilities of drones will be like 20 years from now. The need for human piloted aircraft on carriers will be much reduced.
An air wing might well be just 12 helios, 12 F35’s but with over 50 drones. Each drone capable of remote control from a lead F35, or from a command station either on the QE or back in the U.K., or full autonomous AI.
A ‘drone mode’ might well become a future operating mode in a future F35 software upgrade.

Cam Hunter
Cam Hunter
5 years ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

And! The carriers will be in service for 50 years….

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Cam Hunter

i hope the tempest project involves stovl variant

Meiron X
Meiron X
5 years ago
Reply to  andy reeves

It would be cheaper to convert the carriers to CATOBAR!

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Cam Hunter

no ramp= parking space for 4 more f 35’s

Meiron X
Meiron X
5 years ago
Reply to  andy reeves

Or space for carrier with 3 CAT’s.

Geoff
Geoff
5 years ago

Only one F-35 being delivered to UK this year. Whats that all about ?

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Geoff

its already been revealed that the target of aircraft produced last year was 60 below the target!

Steve Taylor
5 years ago

Let’s hope we don’t do anything silly now and let us concentrate on B and forget A. If we have to forgo A’s additional range so be it. We already have capability gaps every nation apart from US does have gaps. B has to be our expeditionary plane now even if the carrier is elsewhere. Typhoon should be the aircraft for home and established bases and the follow on big stick if it is needed. Let’s face it B is more aeroplane than most of the world’s nations can deploy anyway. And if we have to face off against a… Read more »

Fat Dave
Fat Dave
5 years ago

Nice to see them but there remains no real credible reason for the UK to have aircraft carriers of this size. It really isn’t too late to sell them, notwithstanding the embarrassment, and reinvest the money and manpower saved into areas of Defence that actually need them. The 21st Century and beyond will see these carriers being as vulnerable as Renown and Prince of Wales quickly became in WW2. Only the US – and eventually China – will need carriers like this. Even if we keep the carriers, F-35A is a must buy option. Simply put, the A is a… Read more »

JohnH
JohnH
5 years ago
Reply to  Fat Dave

The carriers are the size they are because that is what is reqired to efficiently operate the F-35B. Many engineers and naval architects worked on it for years. Of course there are always going to be ill informed people who think thay know better.

Steve Taylor
5 years ago
Reply to  JohnH

“Of course there are always going to be ill informed people who think thay know better.” Fat Dave is entitled to his opinion. He has said nothing that is wrong technically. The question we have to ask is, for what were the carriers purchased? Now if it was purely fleet defence then yes we could have got away with much smaller hulls. The need to maintain cap, plus have a couple of FJ on stand by, plus operate ASaC and ASW helicopters we could have comfortably got away with 40k tonne hull. It wouldn’t have cost much less because the… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 years ago
Reply to  Fat Dave

With all due respect on your undermining comment regards the RAF and the A variant. Total nonsense!

Steve R
Steve R
5 years ago
Reply to  Fat Dave

There are plenty of reasons. Power projection. Without carriers of our own we are forced to rely on other nations to allow us the use of their air bases. If Argentina ever managed to capture the Falklands again, or even disable the runway at Mount Pleasant, we’d be unable to send a potent force to recapture the islands. No surrounding country would allow us the use of their airfields as they wouldn’t want to be seen to take sides. 2. A larger carrier allows more flexibility of operations and a higher sortie rate, as the article said. It makes the… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve R

“Advocates of the B model do Not wish at all to undermine the RAF. Simply, that with resources as limited as they are it makes more sense to have planes that can be operated from both land bases and carriers.” Pretty much my thinking. Why spend a vast sum and then be unable to fully utilise the QEC with aircraft if there is one 12 aircraft squadron, the other is deployed by the RAF elsewhere and the other 2 projected squadrons are the A model? The A is indeed welcome, once the ability to surge either 1 carrier or have… Read more »

Steve R
Steve R
5 years ago
Reply to  Fat Dave

To be honest we should have purchased the C variant and built the carriers around that. They could have been used from land or sea and have a similar range to A variant.

But what’s done is done and to tinker with anything now would be prohibitably expensive. This goes for the carrier or the planes themselves.

John Clark
John Clark
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve R

Steve, the core point of our carrier capability is to have a carrier available to respond at very short notice 24/7, 365 days a year. If we had the C variant, keeping a core of two squadrons ( and aircrew qualified) available to embark at all times would have been a massive strain. I think availability would in fact be substantially less than a B equipped carrier, unless we had four squadrons fully available. Any diversion to land based strike, would have disrupted the constant training regime needed to be fully carrier qualified and severely disrupted our carrier strike capability.… Read more »

Meiron X
Meiron X
5 years ago
Reply to  Fat Dave

An aircraft carrier sails in International waters, so aircraft can operate from a carrier in International airspace as well, and when land bases are denied.
And provide best means of protecting shipping from other hostile aircraft operating from land bases.

Britain has been a UN Security Council
member since WW2, that is a fact on the ground!

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Meiron X

the best things to protect shipping lanes e.t.c are warships and submarines.

Meiron X
Meiron X
5 years ago
Reply to  andy reeves

How can submarines protect ships from hostile aircraft??

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Fat Dave

remove the ugly ramp, angle the deck, and operate other aircraft,the f 35 is overpriced, unproven,reliability questionable, too much is being relied upon, if the tempest is the future, we better get a move on, or, it will be obsolete before it ever enters service

Russ
Russ
5 years ago

100,000 tonnes of diplomacy- as an American admiral said at the time – “only if they are properly armed and protected “ which is very much in doubt given its force protection’s is limited. It’s ok having the most powerful radar in the world to know you are going to get clobbered but if you have to use your aircraft for self defence against land based threats cos your destroyers can’t then your diplomatic clout becomes severely limited. Also our government is trying to do trade deals with every despot on the planet so the political will is not there.… Read more »

Cam Hunter
Cam Hunter
5 years ago
Reply to  Russ

And that Navy admiral also said “we will go where we want and stay as long as we need”

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Russ

i miss the mighty fine pub in pompey, and a dockyard with ships in it.

Simon
Simon
5 years ago

This F-35 A/B question is not as simple as looking at total procurement numbers. It is more about how Typhoon draws down and how Tempest replaces it. If you compare with F-15 and F-22 then it becomes obvious that sometimes the sheer cost of a next generation aircraft means you can’t buy enough to cover the tasks asked of it/them. I don’t really see a need for more than 80 F-35B and I would even settle for 60 leaving F-35A to back-fill a closed Tiffy production line whilst Tempest comes on-line. If we don’t buy all 138 F-35 however, then… Read more »

Simon
Simon
5 years ago

If we look at a fully equipped task force then we should be able to deploy:

24 F35
15 Merlin HM2
12 Merlin HC3
12 Wildcat HMA2

So before we try and load up any Apache, Chinook and Wildcat AH1 we’re already cramped for space on a QEC, LPD, LSD, six or so FF/DD and a couple of Tides.

Even with the aircraft numbers we’re signed up to having we litterally NEED an LPH 🙂

Julian
Julian
5 years ago
Reply to  Simon

It’ll be interesting to see what hangar capacity the next generation FSS end up with. According to Wikipedia the 31,565t Fort Victoria has a 2 spot flight deck and hangar space for 3 Merlins (which I assume is all accurate information). With rumours that the next gen FSS will be closer to the 40,000t mark, and the size of the Tides would seem to point towards that, I’m hoping that the aviation facilities will at least match and ideally exceed those of Fort Victoria. That could be a very useful additional hangar capacity if we do end up building 3… Read more »

Simon
Simon
5 years ago
Reply to  Julian

I’m trying to think of something that may happen in the not too distant future that would cause HMG to re-evaluate the LPDs and consider a couple of LHDs instead.

Andy
5 years ago
Reply to  Julian

While talking about the new FSS it would be great if they were built in the UK.
Go to
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/235377

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 years ago
Reply to  Simon

More realistic I feel.

12 to 24 F35B
9 Merlin HM2
4 Merlin HM2 Crowsnest.
3 Merlin HC3 as CSAR.

4 Wildcat on 2 T45 and 2 T23.

The Apache Chinook etc could come after or instead of as part of a Tailored Air Group.

Simon
Simon
5 years ago

That’s definitely more sustainable. However, I suggested “fully equipped” which really meant a carrier + amphib + RM task force. The RM then need copters for CASEVAC, VERTREP and movement around the battlefield. Interesting you would choose to put a Wildcat on your T23. Personally I’d put a Merlin on them as they are the ASW copter and you’d have two dedicated spots up-threat of the HVU ready to go. The carrier simply maintains them and sustains the flights with another 6-8 cabs. That leaves the carrier to operate jets and AEW on a routine basis. I’d also have the… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 years ago
Reply to  Simon

I quite agree on the Merlin / Wildcat for T23 Simon.

I stated Wildcat simply because we have too few Merlin! And I believe 815 NAS has ships flights for the 19 Escorts we have left.

Understood on amphib group in your first list. Cheers.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 years ago

But point taken the HM2 could in effect be forward deployed on the ASW ship and space reserved on the carrier.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 years ago
Reply to  Simon

Merlin HM2 for CSR?

I meant the role that was trialled by the RAF Reg and now looked into by the RM for Joint Personnel Recovery from potentially hostile territory, would you still use a precious resource such as a Merlin HM2 for that?

Simon
Simon
5 years ago

Daniele,

Actually I was talking about SAR (an additional HM2 in the AEW rotation ready to launch, not just to take the place of the AEW about to land, but also for SAR emergencies caused by jet launch or land problems).

Inland CSR would, as you rightly suggest, be HC3.

Pacman27
Pacman27
5 years ago
Reply to  Simon

Simon A single QEC can hold 72 F35B’s as well as various helicopters, this is certainly surge conditions, but realistically we should aim for a minimum of 24 F35’s as standard, anything else is wasteful in my opinion. With escorts you can add in 12 helicopters (if we built Karel Doorman’s for our SSS each can hold 6 Merlins). So we could end up with a fardenser air wing if we chose to. The fact is we need to invest in our military and our military needs to consolidate on fewer large platforms and stop wasting the valuable resources it… Read more »

David E Flandry
David E Flandry
5 years ago
Reply to  Simon

In the meantime, an air wing with 24 F-35 is more powerful than the entire Argentine air force.
It alone will prevent another Falklands war, making it worth the money spent on it.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
5 years ago

David the 4 typhoons on mount pleasant are currently no powerful then the entire Argentine air force. They have no fast combat jets left, just home built Puccara turboprops. If Argentina reinvigorated it’s Airforce with jets purchased from China or Russia we would just increase the Eurofighter component on the islands up from 4 to 8 or 12.
Also the islands airbase is due to get FLADS very soon. Land based SeaCeptor.
Argentina would need to purchase 36 high performance jets at least to threaten the islands whilst hoping a type 45 is not around to shot them all down.

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Simon

remove the superstructure of a bay class, stick a full deck on it and you’ve a good size h.l.p

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Simon

lockheed have admitted to having built 60 f 35’s less than was expected by the time the u.k gets its full order they’ll be obsolete.

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Simon

we’re not going to get one,we should go back to revit how the first carriers were adapted from merchant ships i’d like a bay class with the superstructure, removed,and a full deck fitted.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
5 years ago

Would anyone know if room exists for the additional fitting of searam onboard the carriers?
Thank you in advance.

https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/searam

Steve Taylor
5 years ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

SeaRam sort of sits between CIWS and PDMS like SeaCeptor; it sort of complements both. To be effective it would be need to be placed where the Phalanx will be / are mounted as that would be optimum. Perhaps it would be better to wonder whether we could fit a better CIWS than Phalanx and the fit SeaCeptor? I am never sure about missiles overflying flight decks even with ‘cold launches’. Guns/trainable missiles below flight deck level are a different matter.

DaveyB
DaveyB
5 years ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

According to the ACA blurb the QE class are designed to be fitted with SeaCeptor. When/If, who knows but the space near the forward starboard phalanx was supposedly earmarked for SeaCeptor.

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  DaveyB

i for one are one are sick of the designed for but not with mentality, they are warships, so enable them to fight.i’d go for a searam on the albions as well, they’d easily fit on the ‘pointy end’

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

the chassis is broadly the same size as a phalanx, so swapping one of those for searam could be an idea.

captain P Wash.
captain P Wash.
5 years ago

The whole Thorney subject of whether or not the Carriers should be fitted with Sea Ram, Ceptor or any other Defensive hardware has been done to death, I can see the point David Is making. The fact Is, They are not and most probably never will be fitted. Layered defence Is what we are working with and when you look at the actual Equipment providing that, you know what ?, It ain’t so bad really. T45, T23/26/31, Astute, F35, Merlin, Chinook, Apache, Wildcat, Phalanx, Viper, Ceptor, Spearfish, Harpoon, 30mm, 12.7mm Not to mention the Worlds finest Pilots, Sailors, Marines and… Read more »

andy reeves
5 years ago

the land ceptor might be worth a punt park it below deck,get a sailor with a HGV licence to park it in the best place, and go from there

Pavel
Pavel
5 years ago

Why they choose this weird shape for aircraft carrier. Why not build the ship like French did?

Alex
Alex
5 years ago

Good

Ivan Kalot
Ivan Kalot
5 years ago

yoo englsh has too ov these biggy bote fings an wee Has nun, wee giv chinky Slit eye arsols biggy lawnchy bote too yuse ass Gambolin bote an vey do reebild an has all new bote four planey stuff wiv big banggy gun guns . Wee hast need four Bote wiv Wizzy planes too attach thee Rusky Scrum Internally Proobin ower Womans an Backsides Lung liv Ukrane

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 years ago
Reply to  Ivan Kalot

Queue?

Where’s the Captain? He understands gibberish.

captain P Wash.
captain P Wash.
5 years ago

Feck, hang on Daniele, I’ll go Translate.

captain P Wash.
captain P Wash.
5 years ago
Reply to  Ivan Kalot

You English have two Big Boats. and They have none as they Sold theirs to China as a casino. Which was re built as an aircraft carrier and their women keep getting Poked by the Russians from behind.

Or words to that effect !!!!!
I’m loving this Translation Challenge, truth be known. Ivan, Give Us some more .

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
5 years ago

I knew you would not let us down captain.

LOL!!

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg
5 years ago
Reply to  Ivan Kalot

yoo englsh has too ov these biggy bote fings an wee Has nun, wee giv chinky Slit eye arsols biggy lawnchy bote too yuse ass Gambolin bote an vey do reebild an has all new bote four planey stuff wiv big banggy gun guns . Wee hast need four Bote wiv Wizzy planes too attach thee Rusky Scrum Internally Proobin ower Womans an Backsides Lung liv Ukrane Lets go for the whole lot: You Britons have two of these large ships and we have none; we gave the Chinese slitty-eyed arseholes a big aircraft carrier to use as a gambling… Read more »

captain P Wash.
captain P Wash.
5 years ago

Levi, I think He’s referring to Planes to attack Russian Scum who are infiltrating ? then something happening to their Women, I think. lol.

andy reeves
5 years ago

weirdo

David E Flandry
David E Flandry
5 years ago
Reply to  Ivan Kalot

Yes, I agree entirely, supposedly, Ivan. ( I took Gibberish in college but never had a chance to use it.)

captain P Wash.
captain P Wash.
5 years ago

Ha, I’m Effluent in Gibberish Too, some on here think I type Effluent !!!!

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Ivan Kalot

whatever you are sniffing/smoking, the n.h.s will pay a fortune for it.

Simon
Simon
5 years ago

We also have 1600 Mk1 eyeballs and shoulder-launched HVMs (Starstreak).

captain P Wash.
captain P Wash.
5 years ago
Reply to  Simon

Ha, Simon, You’re not wrong mate. MK1 Eyeballs are the best and have been for Centuries.

Basil
5 years ago

I cannot see the point in having excessive aviation space on the new store supply ships . The operation of three Merlin’s is the absolute maximum that can be effectively operated. Hanger space for two with a third stored on the flight deck is all that the Forts can achieve. This requires complex manourvering and timing of flying Operations to ensure a safe flying environment, ie always keeping space for an emergency landing. In addition any more Aircraft would require doubling hangar size, more manpower, stores, weapon handling, fuel and spares. From past experience two ASW Sea Kings was the… Read more »

captain P Wash.
captain P Wash.
5 years ago
Reply to  Basil

Basil, I think It’s a Reaction to Selling HMS Ocean to Brazil, who will probably operate her for at least 20 years more than “We” deemed her “Operational”. She was after all “Worn Out ” after being used Extensively for 20 years”. and all of a sudden, We don’t need her at all any more. forgive my Cynicism.

andy reeves
5 years ago

the logic behind the thinking at the m.o.d will never be clear.

Steve Taylor
5 years ago
Reply to  Basil

Yes. But can you have too many flight deck spots or hangars. They are big ships. It adds little to the cost to have them. The aviation facilities use ‘volume’ that would be empty anyway. No weapon arcs to worry about. Just because you have the space it doesn’t mean you have to buy helicopters to use from, but who knows if you will need at some point in the future. What if say a helicopter needs to divert in an emergency? etc.

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Taylor

i’d hope in the future that a chopper based ceptor like system will be developed.

Pacman27
Pacman27
5 years ago
Reply to  Basil

Basil I take your point and for normal operations I agree, however if the UK were to standardise its large RFA and amphibious platforms onto a Aegir based Karel Doorman design, that allows for a whole new level of flexibility. With some careful design we could have a platform that when matched with the appropriate enabling platforms can take on a large number of roles independently and then in a war time situation scale up to a higher tempo of operations that is higher risk. For me it is about options – a Karel Doorman in LHP role could hold… Read more »

JohnHartley
JohnHartley
5 years ago

It is great to see the RN back in the big carrier business, but the carrier group needs enough escorts/tankers/stores ships, to keep it on station for any length of time. I think QE/PoW really need some MV-22/CMV-22 if we are to make the most of them. Lord knows how you find the money for them though. Probably going to remain on the wish list for a long time. Also, which version of the F-35B? I think we should wait for the block 4 hard & software + engine upgrade 2.0. around 2023-4. The UK does not need 138 F-35B.… Read more »

captain P Wash.
captain P Wash.
5 years ago
Reply to  JohnHartley

But, We are Seriously Scrapping the Barrel as far as Aircraft numbers are concerned . Tornado’s are off, Typhoons are minimal, F35’s are on long lead Order. I hope to Allah that we don’t actually have any proper hardcore War any time soon.
Go and have a look at the Numbers mate, It’s Seriously low, Lower than anytime since the RFC was formed.
It takes a lot longer to build a Typhoon than It did to build an SE2b.

JohnHartley
JohnHartley
5 years ago

Nothing I said was in favour of low numbers. On previous threads, I have pointed out that the RAF had 400 combat jets in the 1970s, when the UK was broke & had to call the IMF in. I think the Tornado is being retired too soon in comparison to Italian, Saudi & German Tornados. Probably, too late to change that. So lets have all the RAF Typhoon in service rather than sitting in sheds. Perhaps we should prove we are good Europeans by buying the German proposed tranche 4 Typhoon. 24 would cover the missing RAF Typhoon that were… Read more »

captain P Wash.
captain P Wash.
5 years ago
Reply to  JohnHartley

John, I know. I was just saying about the low numbers generally.

JohnHartley
JohnHartley
5 years ago

Agreed. The low numbers of fast jets, escorts, tanks, artillery, helicopters + the brave bods to man them, is quite worrying considering how mad the World is now.

Meiron X
Meiron X
5 years ago
Reply to  JohnHartley

The RAF has really got enough Typhoon’s, mainly use as ‘hanger Queens’!
But it is a Manpower problem that the RAF has, insufficient crews and pilots to man Squadrons. Which also results in smaller squadrons.
Half of the Typhoon’s procured are in strorage.
Also half of the new crews and pilots for the F-35B will be FAA(Navy), and 2nd F-35B squadron, will be 809 NAS(Navy) standing up in 2023. Plus 207 Squadron (OCU) is standing up in 2019.

andy reeves
5 years ago

how about a stealth batch 3 sopwith camel?

Steve R
Steve R
5 years ago
Reply to  JohnHartley

I disagree here. For starters the 138 is, sadly, over the life of the program and were unlikely to have more than 80-90 in our inventory at any one time. The current plan is 4 frontline squadrons, so that’s 48 planes. Plus an OCU squadron, thatd be 10 planes, say. Perhaps the same again for test and evaluation. So say 68 to 70 planes. The rest will be spare airframes; used as replacements for planes lost in combat, accidents, or simply to rotate to prevent wear and tear. Ideally we should have 5-6 squadrons of F35; That’d be 60-72 frontline… Read more »

Frank62
Frank62
5 years ago

They need a SAM system, a larger pool of escorts & for enough F35Bs to be operational at any time to ever be capable of a surge effort. Aster 15 would be ideal.

Pacman27
Pacman27
5 years ago
Reply to  Frank62

Frank

I think Aster 15 should be upgraded to Aster 30 (additional booster) and we should standardise our short range weapons on SeaCeptor.

If we take the recent programme for HMS Duncan, it has 48 Silo’s – so 48 Asters. If we used Seaceptor it could have 32 Aster 30’s and 48 Seaceptors (quadpacked). This gives it far more capability to defend against a swarm attack.

Aster 15 for me has been superseded by Seaceptor, luckily it can be upgraded so no real wastage here. Let’s get Seaceptor bought in volume and upgrade all asters to 30 or NT status.

Steve
Steve
5 years ago

I think we all agree that they should have been built with missile defence onboard but we have to be realistic and now they are built it would be too expensive to add them, when money is needed more urgently on other capabilities. I do however wonder why the decision was orginally made not to include them, when you would think adding during initial build would have been a tiny increase in overall cosf, but maybe it was a case they had a choice of cut to the bones cost wise or only have one carrier.

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve

an aspect of the design is that, sufficient sponson space is available ,say for SEARAM.or whatever. hower any company company with a heavy fabrication ability could build ‘bolt on sponsons for fitting in a dockyard setting

Ron
Ron
5 years ago

In many ways I like these carriers, and they do have a lot of potential for the future. As one of my American colleagues said the Royal Navy has skipped a generation of costs and when the T26s come on line would have one of the most formidable carrier strike groups going. However I still wonder if the MoD missed a trick. When the plans were starting to be formed about the carriers back in the late 1990s I wondered if the MoD and the UK as a whole could afford two carriers. So I asked myself the question would… Read more »

captain P Wash.
captain P Wash.
5 years ago
Reply to  Ron

Not sure they need one ? Good question though.

DaveyB
DaveyB
5 years ago

All the deck photos show it doesn’t have an emergency crash barrier. The reason I believe it needs one is quite simple. So that the F35B can carry out vertical or the rolling landing technique, it requires an additional engine inlet door, two opposing sets of lift fan doors and the exhaust nozzle doors to open. If for some reason one of these doors fails to open from a bird strike or battle damage – what does the pilot do? If they are operating close to the coast it’s not a problem, but in the middle of the Atlantic, Pacific… Read more »

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Ron

we should have designed the harrier with stealth, power upgrades. if we could have done that, and the 72 retired harriers would have been available from minute 1 TOO MUCH HOPE IS INVESTED IN THE ABILITIES OF THE F 35B

Johnf
Johnf
5 years ago

Let the NAVY have all the F35B, and give the RAF some more Eurofighters, maybe a bunch of F16 or similar, and a medium/heavy bomber, with a decent bomb load and range. Yes I know it wont happen, our political pygmies have decided that we can only be a vassal state to the EU and we need to be more like Belgium. We keep reducing our fighter and bombing capability- in range and bomb load. Our military planners have to work with the limited range of the eurofighter and the minimal range of the F35B, but then it was designed… Read more »

Steve R
Steve R
5 years ago
Reply to  Johnf

What are these more capable aircraft of which you speak? Long range heavy bombers? Those are slow and vulnerable. If shit hit the fan against Russia or China it’s not going to be F35s, Typhoons or US F22s being blown out of the sky each night, it’ll be the B52s. The reason that range and payload is reduced is a natural payoff for stealth capabilities. F35B has a reduced payload compared to Tornado but still better than Harrier at sea; at least F35 won’t have to ditch unused weapons to be able to land vertically like the Harrier did. Similarly,… Read more »

Pacman27
Pacman27
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve R

I really do think that the Tornado fleet should be replaced with Taranis/Magma. I see the F35 taking off with 2 of the drones and the F35 doing all the intelligence, blocking, electronic jamming and sending the drones onto target several hundred miles further forward, giving us a deep strike capability. It also allows the F35 to carry more defensive weapons and th taranis to carry the strike payload. Benefits of this are cost, risk reduction and scale. Cost: A taranis should cost at leas 1/4 of a T35 or Typhoon and does not need an additional pilot ( I… Read more »

Meiron X
Meiron X
5 years ago
Reply to  Pacman27

Pacman27#, I am afraid your idea is a bit ridiculous, sorry! So a F-35 carries two 4 metre drones which are launched from the F-35 bomb bay, which flies to the target and
releases bombs, so what size are those bombs? They certainly will be a lot smaller than the size of the drone, most likely Brimstone size, which has small explosive power, not heavy weight bombs!

Meirion X
Meirion X
5 years ago
Reply to  Pacman27

Drones like Taranis are limited in range, about the same as the Hawk jet, uses same engine and size.

Elliott
Elliott
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve R

Steve R on heavy bombers being vulnerable. You do realize B52s and B-1Bs wouldn’t be “Bombing” anything. They would be launching missiles like JASSM-ER and LRASM at extreme range. Their would be no shooting them down as their would be no opportunity to at that range. By the time Air Defense knew they were there they would have several dozen (20 per plane) if not over a hundred if multiple B52 squadrons were used, missiles landing on their runways, hangars, ammunition dumps, radars, and other early warning stations. To shoot them down with fighters on CAP you would have to… Read more »

Steve R
Steve R
5 years ago
Reply to  Elliott

The US is indeed building the B21 Raider… at over half a billion dollars per unit. For any country bar the USA that’s unaffordable. Typhoons could do the same job with Storm Shadow, refuelling en route and on the way back if needed. For the cost of a single Raider we could have 4 Typhoons and a refuelling tanker… and the Typhoons could still engage enemy aircraft if they had to. We can’t afford a fleet of heavy bombers any more, or really any aircraft that serves only one purpose. Which is why most countries chose multirole aircraft as one… Read more »

JohnHartley
JohnHartley
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve R

In 1982, the shiny new Tornados were useless as they did not have the range, but the ancient Vulcan did (assisted by many Victor tankers).
Typhoons are great, but only if they can reach the enemy. If not, they are expensive ornaments.
I don’t think it would happen, but I would be very happy if the RAF had one Sqn of 6 to 8 B-21 bombers.(or second hand B-1s).

captain P Wash.
captain P Wash.
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve R

Steve R , Personally, I think It’s unaffordable for them too. It’s a bit like, “The Last Days of Empire” What we are seeing Is a Bankrupt Nation spending way more than they can actually afford in the long term. It’s the way of the World. History Repeats Itself, Time and Time again. A few years back there was talk of a New World Order, Well I personally think It’s here, The Bizarre thing Is, I don’t think Its China, Russia or Asia, I also don’t think It’s Islamic either. You’ll All laugh at this but, I believe Brexit will… Read more »

Meiron X
Meiron X
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve R

If Russia can afford 8 Squadrons of Tu22’s, Tu95’s, Tu160, I am sure the UK with an economy over twice as big can afford strategic bombers!

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Johnf

if the u.s turn up.

rec
rec
5 years ago

They are only a symbol if they have a full air wing and for that the RN actually needs more F35bs, and more Merlin HM2s, and delivered at a faster pace than they are now. Other wise basically they will be like HMS Hood, great for world cruises but no good in combat.

Steve R
Steve R
5 years ago
Reply to  rec

They’ll likely never see their full potential but they’ll still be a potent asset. Even with 24 F35s on it that’s still enough to make a lot of potential adversaries think twice.

If we could buy enough F35s to fill them with 36 jets each plus helicopters, and get 10 T31s to add to the T45s and T26s, and a few more Astutes, then we’d have a mighty fleet indeed!

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve R

the carriers should never put to sea without a full escort an air wing embarked.

Rec
Rec
5 years ago

Steve,
I think the only way adequate numbers of Astutes, SSKs, escorts, Helicopter s etc Let alone what might pass as adequate UK air defence, and a more capable army in the current economic climate. Is to bite the bullet and not replace Trident, if we need a nuclear deterrent then a minimal one based on cruise missiles on SSNs. And free fall bombs on Terrains/ F35a. I would go for a split buy F35 in these circumstances, 80 F35B Royal Navy only, 60F35A RAF.

captain P Wash.
captain P Wash.
5 years ago
Reply to  Rec

And In ten Years time, We will Cut all that too.

Steve R
Steve R
5 years ago
Reply to  Rec

It wouldn’t even need that; just build 4 more Astutes modified for Trident missiles. They’re built in modules anyway so wouldn’t be too much to put a ballistic missile module in.

Regular Astutes are £1.4 billion; say the modifications take them up to £2billion each that’s still a fraction of the cost of Dreadnought. Savings could go towards the rest of the fleet, and defence as a whole.

Meiron X
Meiron X
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve R

The Trident D5 missile will Not fit the Astute class submarine!
A new medium range missile will need to be developed.

Steve R
Steve R
5 years ago
Reply to  Meiron X

Wouldn’t need to be an Astute per say; a new sub based on the Astute, simply larger with a compartment that will fit the D5 missiles.

Meiron X
Meiron X
5 years ago
Reply to  Meiron X

A sub. based on the Astute would need to be a similar size of Vanguard subs, because Trident D5 is 13.5 meters, the Astute hull is only 11.5 meters in diameter. Only Trident C4, which is 10.2 meters or a Polaris missile would fit in the Astute class sub.
I am not sure what the USN did with the Trident C4’s, they did have a range of 4300M.

Meiron X
Meiron X
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve R

An new Astute type of sub the size of Vanguard, which is big enough to fit D5 missile, would cost much more then £2 billion!

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Rec

£1.4 billion for 1 astute, 100 million for a conventional powered submarine? that’s why it won’t happen,

dave12
dave12
5 years ago

Hes ukraine give him some respect and a spell checker ,but which one of you guys knows how to speak ukraine??? at least he tries.

Basil
5 years ago

Crickey, this post is all over the place, The only bit missing is a discussion in tanks! Just to remind to the new stores ship bit: the problem of having multi roles vessels is that they lead to a reduction in overall numbers and capacity. If we had semi LPDD/ stores ships with aviation facilities for ASW Merlins: come the pressure of war, The vessel cannot be a useful stores supply asset whilst embarking hundreds of troops and kit, whilst being part of a ASW Screen offshore. There is a logic to separating out core roles. Unfortunately this is the… Read more »

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Basil

acquiring and adapting roll on roll off ships and adapting them to military specs would make sense

Steve Taylor
5 years ago

There are rumours we are about to flog the Brazilians one or both of the Waves, a couple of T23’s, the B1 Rivers, and possibly some Hunts.

Keithdwat
Keithdwat
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Taylor

I mean hopefully it’s not as bad as it sounds, and it’s far from confirmed anyway! But we have some T23s available in 4 years anyway, so they will be available for sale anyway. As for the B1 Rivers, hopefully they only mean HMS Clyde which is already expected for sale next/this year, the other B1s were confirmed to be forward deployed around the country, we are already gaining 4 OPVs with the B2s and B1s. As for the hunts MCMs,we already have two lying up decommissioned from the 2015 SDSR, Quorn and ???. Not a huge loss there, I… Read more »

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Taylor

maybe we should have both of the type 22’s we sold them back. big, reliable platforms that were retired/sold too soon

Peter french
Peter french
5 years ago

Well this piece has given the usual arm chair Admirals and experts a chance to vent their .they believe ,superior knowledge ,however I would add that having ability tp project power is dependent on the political will to use it. This is where we have to face the possibility of a Corbyn Goverment which will negate any use of Military power any where. Indeed i suspect the Defence budget will be radically reduced and we become just a bystander in World affairs

andy reeves
5 years ago
Reply to  Peter french

now now, respect to the admirals. WITHOUT THEM THIS SITE WOULDN’T EXIST.KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, SHAME THE U.K DOESN’T HAVE ANY.

Basil
5 years ago

Mr French being an arm chair polititian venting his supposed superior political knowledge.