Speaking at the annual Sea Power Conference in central London, the Defence Secretary will announce that HMS Argyll and HMS Westminster are to be retired, with one being sold to BAE to assist skills training.
Defence Secretary, Grant Shapps said:
“With up to 28 ships and submarines being built or in the pipeline, this is a new Golden Age for British shipbuilding.The new vessels for the Royal Marines will help our brave Commandos fight the conflicts of the future.
This is all possible because this government has committed to spending 2.5% of GDP on defence by the end of the decade, as part of our plans to deliver a more secure future for you and your family.”
The Defence Secretary will also announce that HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark will not be scrapped or mothballed before their planned out of service dates of 2033-2034.
The Defence Secretary will also announce that HMS Argyll and HMS Westminster, that have a combined service of 63 years, will be retired. HMS Argyll has been sold to BAE Systems and will be used within the UK’s vibrant shipbuilding sector, supporting apprentice training in line with the Government’s agenda on skills and shipbuilding capacity.
It’s got feck all to do with a meaningless pledge of what will happen at the end of the decade! These orders were placed a long time before that. Lying bastard.
He is both a liar, and a bastard. So to call him a lying bastard, is quite the description old bean!
😂😂😂
Mr Shapps was in danger of going native, with a couple of sensible comments, but he’s been brought to heel by Mr Sunak. It’s worth noting that the most important Defence document this year, “Defending Britain”, comes out of the Cabinet Office and not the MOD.
Mr Shapps is now doing the job he was hired for in the first place: Minister for the Today Programme.
22 of them are in build or contracted to be built and yes some of the long lead contact items were ordered in the last decade. This up to “up to” 6 MRSS is nothing extra to the NSBS he’s just brought forward the announcement by a year. In the short term it starts the ball rolling for the RN to finalise their spec and KUR and then issue a request for proposals (which doesn’t cost much). And as the only yard in U.K that can build them is H&W then I can’t see any construction starting till 2030 due… Read more »
Now looks as if Harland and Wolff may close because Hunt wont pay 200m of previously agreed aid. This lot are incapable of joined up thinking
So right. Our military numbers and capabilities have been stripped to the bones. Protection of our nation is weakening year by year.
Westminster I get, better it’s not taking up dock space, but Argyll? I hope we got a decent price given that we just paid a lot of money to put it through a refit. We can’t afford to lose ships right now, even if we can’t crew them.
And then there were nine.
Don’t worry as we all know the Tory’s are really good on defence 😀
I found it funny that Sunak the other day was talking about how Britain is at a crossroads and only he can be trusted to defend the country’s interests. It boggles the mind
Its crazy , action speak lowder than words and so far its just verbal for the gdp , and labour will not commit . Yet the risk of confrontations even outside of Europe is high . The uk needs a commitment of extra billions this year to get projects going such as air defence which is starting at the bottom , not even a Patriot in sight
I think the key thing here is to understand his definition of ‘country’; he is absolutely defending the interests of a certain subset of this country’s population- the about 0.01% who also coincidentally probably control something like 99.999% of the country’s wealth.
Past Tense Where good sorry Mr Churchill
It is very odd scrapping a ship that has just been refurbished.
Sold to BAE is a face saving measure…..it still notionally floats etc.
The announcement would have gone down better if T32 or T31BII had been ordered.
Hi SB An order for T32 is still a long way off, I fear, as it seems to be stuck in the concept phase. If someone does not get a grip of it soon there is the very real risk that that program will end up following same course as the Global Combat Ship… If it were down to me I would put the navy on notice to make some decisions or see the T32 cancelled in favour of more T31. It would keep the yard busy which we all know is crucial as we potentially don’t have enough ship… Read more »
CRAPITA are always seen as a solution as they can be tasked to do something…..whether it works or not almost doesn’t matter!
Yeh, makes you wonder how they get the contracts..? 🤔
Incompetence or something else..?
I agree…..I do see forcing a T31/32 order as being done before the election TBH.
As will an order of something RAF and something Army.
Hi SB, An order for more T31 would be very good news and more concrete than what we have seen with the announced MRSS ‘plan’. If it is T32 then it would be simply moving from concept to assessment phase rather than an order for ships – so my preference would be for a T31b2 even if it was only for 3 vessels. That would eventually give us 16 new frigates plus 6 middle aged destroyers (heading for replacement hopefully). Still 10 years away from those numbers, though. Something for the RAF, hmm, tantalising thought… as for the army –… Read more »
Something for the RAF? How about reinstating the two Wedgetails that were cut? And another six P-8s. Oops, sorry I’m dreaming again . . .
By the way, mate, I meant to ask what makes you say that – just the Tories setting more bear traps for Labour..?
Cheers CR
My political antennae.
But also because it is the right thing to go to make sure ship building keeps rolling.
God knows what might happen in a Labour defence review. It would be very hard for Labour to cancel frigates as everyone agrees we need more of them.
The worst that can happen is a review and then GCS style dithering.
To honest I’d put more trust in your political antennae than ‘doing the right thing’! Politically, ordering more ships would tie Labour’s hands for at least the next parliament throw in union support for the National Shipbuilding Strategy and Labour will be well and truly boxed in. However, I think Sunak is right about one thing, the next 5 years are going to be very interesting indeed – hopefully they won’t get exciting! Labour have been hinting a shift towards the Army and NATO. However, I think this would be a mistake. In order of priority, I think the UK… Read more »
Labour’s hands are quite tied with
AUKUS (unions would go mad if plug was pulled due to damage to RR and Barrow – in this case unions would be right)
MRSS and FSSS (again unions would and should go crazy)
T26 Norway deal (hopefully)
T31/32 follow on order should be relatively cheap but increase surface combatants which everyone says RN needs.
OK, all in unison, begin chanting:
RAF: E-7s, P-8s, and fighters (loosely speaking), Oh My!
E-7s, P-8s and fighters, Oh My…
RN: We want eight and we won’t wait!(really doesn’t matter which class is referenced 😉)
We want eight and we won’t wait…
Army: Send help now!
Or perhaps: Ajax, Boxer, Challenger, GBAD, Precision Deep Fires, Oh My! (Doesn’t really roll off the tongue though.)
Gentlemen, please consider some advice from the other side of the Pond: It is the squeaky wheels which tend to be greased. 🤔
Surely other yards that are still working yards can build war ships?
Cammell Laird for example built parts of the hull/deck of the new aircraft carriers
I randomly saw a headline from “Malaysian Defence” about a week ago that referred to buying T23s from Britain. Maybe this is what they were talking about?
Seems really odd but I the hull has just been refurbished to RN standards so not impossible.
Stick the old Harpoons back on and it is still a viable frigate.
We sell Argyll to BAE as a training ship, for a song. BAE then decide they don’t need it after all and sell it to Malaysia for a hefty profit. After a short period to cover the proprieties someone retires to join a tremendously difficult job in BAE?
It could be worse. They might not be talking about Westminster or Argyll.
Training ship for what?
How not to design something to last?
There is a bit of information missing here!
33 years is a reasonable amount of time and rather longer than her planned service life. I gather she is to used to train apprentice ship builders.
Just had another look at the article in question.
It claims that the “UK has offered Malaysia a pair of Type 23 frigates to serve as gap fillers for the Royal Malaysian Navy” until at least 2026 when their new ships arrive.
I’ll try separately for the link but the site comes up when you search Malaysian Defence.
.malaysiandefence.com/type-23s-for-the-rmn/
Link to article re the possibility of sending the two Type 23 frigates being retired to Malaysia.
Put the https thing in and it works
Got to love the Tory’s spin, “today I’m announcing a massive defence cut but I’m. Going to make it look like it’s an increase by making pledges for labour to fulfill in ten years time”
It’s beyond me how any votes for these creatures.
Usually because the alternative was worse. Frankly I still struggle with the idea of trusting with national security a party that was insane enough to elect an outspoken IRA fanboy as their leader even if he is no longer their leader.
Precisely why I will not vote for them.
Hi DM, any thoughts on a blog post National Intrest? 😳 I’m weary! 🤔💭😶🕳️.
But the Queen met Martin McGuinness and he killed her cousin. Do you disown Her Majesty on the same logic?
What kind of analogy are you trying to draw here?
You are suggesting, I think, that Corbyn (no favourite of mine) should not be a fan of the IRA But The Queen actually met McGuinness in public (I don’t know whether Corbyn did) and that public meeting gave him and the IRA public credibility No one is now, AFAIK, saying that Her Majesty should not have met him (although there was surprise and doubt at the time) The analogy is that if The Queen can meet one of the most senior members of the IRA (who killed Lord Mountbatten and half his family) then what’s the beef with a mere… Read more »
That is an incredibly bad take. As a constitutional monarch she did as her government instructed to to cement the food Friday agreement. I’m sure she found it disagreeable but she did her duty. Nothing more, nothing less. Corbyn on the other hand was a fulsome supporter of the IRA and it’s agenda, not a reluctant conciliator. Everyone in Labour was willing to vote for or tolerate a leader who actually supported or sympathised with the IRA. That sin is not easily extirpated.
Like me, you don’t know what Her Majesty was thinking That was what made her so special It is all supposition on your part The rest of your message is waffle and historically irrelevant Whatever the means, and they were not all good, the end – as in peace in NI – has proved to be travel in the right direction What a has-been politician may or may not have thought is by the by
Corbyn is still in the background even as an independent he could still return
Thats politics… Labour play’s the same games. The aim of the game is to win votes then blame the previous government as to why you can’t deliver. Tories did it, Labour are teeing it up quite nicely for when they get in power. Just wait until they get in office it’ll be ‘wow we didn’t know how bad is was so sorry folks feck all we can do’. Its in chapter 5 of politics for dummies 😄
You probably need to focus less on the political side of things – it’s consuming you.
Maddening. Not that they’re being retired, but that successive governments have been so bloody feckless about managing replacements
‘You can’t trust Labour on defence, you can’t trust Labour on security’.
Yet this disgusting man stand there trumpeting theTory record.
Electioneering, it’s, indefenceable and passing misappropriated funds
to the elites
Golden Age. 🤔😆
Rhetorically, how is cutting the fighting ships even lower than the record low golden?
With two bellicose nuclear powers to the east, sure, less is more.
Idiot HMG.
Idiots too the UK public for not holding their governments (past and present) to account.
A golden age for contractors, and a dark age for the RN.
…also, up to 28 doesn’t mean 28 and 28 is still a pitiful number.
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Shapps is getting stick and rightly so but in reality he doesn’t know the difference between a frigate and a canoe! Whoever in the navy decided that after a refit and all the money spent on that Argyle should be ‘retired’ is quite frankly stupid!
Quite agree. There is no logic to selling off a vessel that has recently been refitted.
There will be a reason for that.
It may not be the obvious one.
It could be to do with finding the money for Mk41 for T31.
I remember Hms Argyle and Westminster. Better ti have scrapped it than have kids play screw driver on them
They are all knackered, just some a little less so.
This has been on the cards for a long time. At least they have ‘fessed up’. Unfortunately I agree with the Shapps descriptions below, I particularly the ‘Minister for the Today Programme’ comment.
I will support the Labour Party on Defence.
It cannot be worse than the soon to be entered ‘Golden Age for British Shipbuilding’.
I’ve been quite impressed with Shapps , think he has carried on from Wallace pretty well. The ship building on track , the drone building has somekind of plan now . He really wants to fight the corner more in public me thinks and leave a legacy as he prob knows he may not be around in few months .
Somebody needs to break into the Prime Ministers office and nail a 6 ft whiteboard on his wall which lists current force availability levels. Might shock the little fella into doing his job.
Remember not to put the board too high.
Whilst I agree with the many of the comments above can I just make, what I believe to be a very important point. Defence is for the first time in decades near the top of the political agenda! Sure the politicians all too often spout rubbish and ministers haven’t yet got their heads around what really needs to be done, but the fact that they now recognise that defence is an issue is a big step foreword. I would also say that UKDJ has played at least some part in that change, witness that fact the some newspapers and politicians… Read more »
You make a couple of excellent points, about the increase in training capability and in terms of the political agenda. Perhaps they finally understand when it all hits the fan, there are votes in defence after all, and maybe that’s no bad thing.
Yes its definitely riden to the top of agenda , and probably a beating stick for eachother running up to election. Unfortunately Rishi has missed the mark again by a slow commitment to 2.5 percent . As that does not even touch the bare minimum for the next year or two. Uk armed forces needs urgent requirement such as air defence umbrella
Air Defence is an oft forgotten requirement. The UK is very vulnerable to maritime launched missiles, especially submarine launched weapons. We have just 6 batteries of Land Ceptor missiles I believe to cover the whole of the UK and mobile forces. In other words, a wholly inadequate capability. Given Russia’s treatment of Ukraine our politicians should consider the threat of missiles hitting our cities totally unhindered. Won’t do their re-election prospects much good would it! For those who do not know, Land Ceptor is a development of the RN Sea Ceptor medium range air defence system. It is very good… Read more »
Evidently there was recent defence contractor testimony before a Parliamentary committee which made many of the same arguments. Not certain re reception, could have been simultaneously somewhat self-serving, yet entirely accurate. In any event, good show! ,👍👍
Hi FormerUSAF,
Yeh, I saw that. When I was still working as a defence analyst GBAD was a significant issue…
Cheers CR
So who will fire said missiles at the UK. Ivan? Who then gets an article 5 and anything in the sea such as SSGNs, at sea such as Frigates and in the air such as Bears are fair game. Bears coming in to launch would need to come in from around Norway, Sweden and Finland. SSGNs are an issue but there are not a lot of them and they have limited number of tubes/silos. They wouldn’t last long. Yep somewhere would take hits but a NATO response in just the conventional sphere would decimate ivans bases in and around Kola… Read more »
Hi GB, Your description is certainly one possible scenario, but there is no way of knowing for sure how things would actually go. The point is defence should be the ultimate insurance policy and our politicians have definitely treating it as an optional extra for decades. I would also point out that the numbers of NATO naval forces is not huge but the oceans have not got any smaller. Even the USN has been reduced to just 90ish escorts and 53 attack boats. Given they will be covering the Indo Pacific region and Med, not to mention some of them… Read more »
Hi CR, they must have been the few MPs that were either awake or able to read UKDJ after the bar. BZ George.
Yes, it is good that defence has focus now. But I am still concerned at the lack of urgency and the glacial pace at which we appear to be addressing the potential threat of a major war in Europe.
IMHO we need to be thinking about a 5% GDP and need it now.
Yeh, at least Chamberlain managed to do just enough for us to survive 1940!
Our current crop of politicians haven’t a clue! If the Ukraine War was to somehow spill over into a NATO country we would be left looking very vulnerable indeed and it would just be us either!
Hopefully, our glorious leaders are beginning to realise just how vulnerable we are. They deserve to be absolutely pooping themselves frankly, especial when they realise just how long it is going to take to repair the damage done to our armed forces.
Cheers CR
Yes Chamberlain did get industry and recruitment on a war footing, the problem is he lost his nerve once the battle of France was lost … enter Churchill
I don’t think he lost his nerve, it was more the Norway issue that forced his resignation. He didn’t have long anyway, cancer of the stomach and was dead six months after stepping down.
totally agree with you Keith- spot on
Well Chamberlain did that but he had to be pushed to do it.
Without the warmongers Britain would not have been able to defend itself.
Actually, my comment above is more directly related to your post 😊👍
Not entirely unexpected as most on here would have worked it out anyway. What the Govt should have done is announced say an extra T26 or T31 then that would have put a more positive spin on it 👍.
Or that the Type 32 was coming out of Concept. It would have cost them nothing to do that.
I wonder if Argyll will be kept in a semi-serviceable state to allow it to be bought back in time of war.
hahahahahahahahahahahaha- you so funnee
👍
BAe will use Argyll to showcase their products and capabilities….expect to see her refitted with a 57mm or 76mm hosting sales and marketing jollies.
So the remaining Escorts have to take up the slack. Which will probably impact on retention its not really going to get better anytime soon.
Think we all expected this . Time to get serious on Defence ,seen Defence Secretary this morning on sky news talking positive about six vessels for the RM.maybe if he’d mention Type 83 ,has the Battle fleet very under strength.
How can the Royal Navy meet its obligations with only 9 frigates? This is a ridiculously small number.
I’m sorry to say the number will only get smaller before it gets bigger again.
Lancaster will go before Venturer and Glasgow are operational. We have yet to hear the news about whether Kent and Northumberland can be refit this year. Portland will be another toss of the coin in a year or two. Let’s hope St Albans and Sutherland will be back soon and whatever is plaguing Somerset gets sorted.
So why isn’t one of the ships that hasn’t been in refit getting the chop not Argyle? It doesn’t make sense.
Argyll is GP
Argh righto👍
Lo and behold a election in sight so bring out the need of guns and defence so as to win some votes. Where were the Tories until now the lying golden rivets.
Whatever the riff raff say Grant Shapps is doing a good job. May God help us if the prevaricating commie Labourites get in Government!
FFS! Westminster everyone saw coming but Argyll has just finished an expensive and extensive refit. The MoD is getting into a nasty habit of spending a lot of money on ships and aircraft just before deciding to scrap them to save a few pennies.
Down to 9 increasingly clapped out frigates with the earliest replacement still 3 years away. Pathetic!
Hey you guys are missing the real problem. Labour will undoubtedly come to power. I would only use your money to bet all those promised ships actually get built !
So yesterday we have a speech from Sunak about how dangerous the world is and is going to be and that only the Tories can be trusted with defence…
Today more cuts…
He is Trying to put a positive spin on this headline.
Ok the scrapping of Westminster I understand, because apparently, she is in a very poor state.
Still, the Commissioning of HMS Glasgow and HMS Venturer are still a long way off.
I think they could have sent Argyll to have the 2nd set of NSMs fitted given Somerset is in the dock again.
So that’s what this country does nowadays, spend loads of taxpayers cash on refitting ships and then sell them to BAE. Smart move. I think the total of escort ships is now 15. They can’t be serious surely.
Ok no ship lasts for ever unless its HMS Victory, but why up grade it recently why not save the money.
If you traded your car in. Would you drop it of at the garage, then be told thanks your new one will be here sometime be has not built it yet and we a bit unsure even what spec it will be. Why go with out a working useful car for a few years until a better one should turn up.
This 6 MRSS is just a repeat announcement.of an intention that has been announced at least twice before. The Conservatives are desperately hunting for anything positive to say in election year. Going by the increased appearances by a host of cabinet ministers on tv, each looks to have been charged with coming up with something positive from their department. Fair enough in the Tories’ beleagured position. But Shapps’ pretence that we are building up to 6 MRSS and indeed 29 ships in total is just a whopping big lie. I don’t think there is even a staff target yet for… Read more »
What do you expect from a photocopier and very dodgy online sales business person ( with a number of shut down and banned websites…19 in total)…who’s academic achievements amount to a higher national btec In business….this is a very ordinary individual who has somehow managed to hold some of the highest offices in the land..by being a party man first second and third.
Less escorts than Italy or Spain, let,s go , no LPD,s, no RFA,s, the goal is approaching, just another SDR and one Carrier less and more cuts , what,s the optimum number ? Zero ?
Interesting that we are now down to 9 Frigates now. The Russians will be taking note and this does nothing to dispel the myth that the Conservatives can’t be trusted with defence. Clueless not having enough escorts.
How many active frigates does that leave?
Lucky there isn’t a war going on in Europe or sustained attacks on our shipping.
And HMS Westminster will be dragged off to Turkey to provide them with jobs… FFKS if they have to scrap her (and given russia, china and iran I wouldnt scrap a single ship however ‘out of date’ or even rusty it is) I would at least scrap her in the UK to provide jobs in the UK!
So we are down to nine T23’s … 3 or 4 operational. The latest Bridge Card can be credit card size.
But the usual promise of lots of jam tomorrow!
And the smallest RN in history continues on the decline.
Shapps is quite possibly the biggest bulllshiner to hold the post of DM of all time.
Scrap the carriers which we can’t afford and don’t need and build some corvettes, something along the lines of the Russian Stereguschy class.
What happens if we end up in a serious war with china and china sends a Surface action group or carrier battle group to the gulf of Aden to cut energy supply routes…..corvettes will do sod all…if we have a war with Russia and need break open the Barents and Kara sea bastions…corvettes will be sod all use for that….a spat in the south Atlantic ? What good are corvettes ? Supporting our allies in the pacific ? Corvettes are really pointless for almost everything we would need the navy to do in a peer war…as for the carriers..a navy… Read more »
Don’t understand why some on here criticising when some of them wanted Corbyn as PM!
Starmer and his woke party really aren’t going to be any better!
Every country started reducing their defence after 1990.
Some complain we’re not spending enough! Or too much! Then criticise our help in Ukr. But if Putin was allowed to take Ukr, then we would need to spend EVEN MORE than in Cold War defending Europe’s borders against Putin.
Ukr has shown, Putin’s Conventional forces are no more than toy soldiers.
Their Scrapping the wrong Westminster
ha ha- funny Mate!👌
LOL
Am sure they can do better, thete are people wanting to join the navy right now some have put there name down and not heared enything back is thete some agender goimg on here, he is a relative and with decades of sea fairing family history sinse the RN started and relatives who built them. So when a relative wants to join up he should beable to. What is the delay. ??
I’m sorry what the hell is this government doing…Argyll is 2 years out of a lifex that was meant to keep her sailing until 2028…..is this is because of the issues crewing….they need to sort that out not get rid more escorts. westminster…they just need to spend the money needed on a refit…sorry but we just have pay the money….to ensure we have as many escorts as possible until the new ships are commissioned…the world is not in a place we can have big gaps and draw downs….going down to 15 escorts is quite frankly a profound failure in the… Read more »
This isn’t surprising news. For military planners it’s one less headache to deal with. A GP Frigate isn’t going to turn the tide of WW3, and it frees up valuable crews to start training for the introduction of service of the first T26. That’s the reality of managing a fleet. Tough choices have to made. The future fleet has huge potential and capability in spades.
Hi Robert , hope all is good in your world. Whilst I agree with you comment, this capability gap high lights the dangers of “kicking the replacement can down the road”. Far to tempting for the treasury to defer and delay capital asset programmes . The cost of building a frigate today is cheaper than it will be tomorrow.
Criticism aside, I understand the difficulties the MOD faces with an underfunded defence budget.
How about a few more T31s Mr Shapps? They’re relatively cheap, in build now, well armed, good for patrolling international waterway choke points, can support LRGs and be picket ships for CSGs, all while we wait for the T32s.
Noticed CR has said the same thing below earlier.
Weds morning GOV UK ” Golden age of Ship building ” at this moment in Print not in Steel seeing is believing will the next government hold true
They should have been put in care and maintenance until the navy gets their act together and starts rebuilding numbers.
So how many Frigates does this leave the RN now, 9?
I hope those at the MOD realize that if there is open war with Russia and/or China there will be ship losses.
We need to get a boogie on with the type 31s and type 26 programmes- need those ships asap. the destroyer and frigate force is dropping to alarmingly low levels at the precise moment of greatest danger.
selling our clothes before the new ones arrive makes us naked!
Emperors new cloths mate…not having any escorts is the new more escorts….
So this is why there is all the noise about new ships that will probably never be built……
WTF don’t these idiots understand. Last I heard there was a long waiting list to join the armed forces, but with typical incompetence of those decide when people actually join, those on the waiting list were withdrawing their wish to join because it was taking to long.
We should be keeping as many ships as we can until a replacement is ready to join jthe fleet not 10 years later.
This country is run by imcompetent imbeciles in every area of government and civil service.
Selling Argyll to BAe will set up a T23 disposal process. Expect her to be fitted with a 57mm, new diesels, Tacticos, Barak, a NS100 radar and used as a sales aid.