The future of the Royal Navy’s escort fleet has, once again, been brought into question.
Where is the Type 32 frigate in the Royal Navy’s future plans? Despite repeated government commitments, the frigate remains mysteriously off the radar in official dialogue.
John Healey, MP for Wentworth and Dearne Commons, asked,
“To the Secretary of State for Defence, how many (a) destroyers and (b) frigates does the Royal Navy plan to have in service in (i) 2025, (ii) 2030, and (iii) 2035?'”
In response, James Cartlidge, MP for South Suffolk Commons, stated:
“The Royal Navy (RN) will continue to have the destroyers and frigates it needs to deliver on its operational commitments until 2035 and beyond. In the coming years, the make-up of the RN will change as it transitions from Type 23 Frigates to Type 26 Anti-Submarine Warfare and Type 31 General Purpose Frigates.
This is a significant investment, with shipbuilding for the Royal Navy doubling to £1.7 billion by the end of this Parliament. We do not disclose the fine detail of forward availability forecasts to preserve the operational security of the Fleet.”
However, much like a previous Parliamentary written question and response, the Type 32 frigate was noticeably absent from the discussions.
Last month, Lord West of Spithead sought clarity on the government’s commitment to a fleet of a minimum of 19 operational Destroyers and Frigates. He had questioned, “…whether maintaining a fleet of a minimum of 19 operational Destroyers and Frigates is still realistic and sufficient; and, if not, what the new minimum will be.”
Baroness Goldie, the Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, responded:
“The government is committed to modernising the Royal Navy’s escort fleet through the transition of the existing Type 23 frigate force to the Type 26 and Type 31 classes. This will bring the number of destroyers and frigates to 19.”
This omission of the Type 32, which the Ministry of Defence had previously confirmed to enter service in the 2030s, is a little concerning. The UK Government have repeatedly committed to new Type 32 frigates, be it as a new design or a second batch of already-in-build Type 31 Frigates.
According to Alex Chalk, then-Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence, the type would remain, but changes will be made to make the vessel more affordable.
“There are currently no plans to withdraw the Type 32 Frigate Programme and it remains a key part of the future fleet for the Royal Navy. The Programme is currently in its concept phase and work continues, across a number of defence organisations, to ensure the programme is affordable. Defence Equipment and Support (DES) have been allocated overall funding to develop various concepts on multiple projects. It is therefore difficult to delineate precise costs, but we would estimate that approximately c.£4 million of this funding has been allocated to the T32 programme.”
When I spoke to Chalk in person at the steel cutting for a new Type 26 Frigate, he insisted it remained “overwhelmingly likely” the ships would be built.
Seems the Tories are about to get in their boat and begin their well tried, practiced and prepared action of rowing back on previous promises.
🚣♂️🚣🚣♀️🚣🚣♂️🚣🚣♀️🚣♂️🚣🚣♂️🚣🚣♀️🚣🚣♂️
not just Tories they’re all the damned same, we need at least 24 hulls
Agreed on both counts!
They are all the same, you got that right. GB needs a government of patriots that place national defence at the top of their priorities list. Even 24 hulls is not enough. I would aim to double everything except carriers. Double the RAF airframes too and triple the strength of our land forces. With a heavy emphasis on AFVs in particular a new British built MBT.
“Oh the cost!” They cry.
“Oh the recruiting problems.” They moan.
“Bollocks!” Say I.
We are witnessing what a lack of adequate defence leads to in Gaza today. If you hold back from investment then you can be at the mercy of a dominant power, in this case, Israel. Okay, our defences aren’t as weak as Hamas but disparity can quickly creep up on you if commitment to defence is too cost-driven.
Agreed in principle. But linking us in any way, shape or form with those barbaric mujahedeen terrorists. Turns my stomach.
If our approach to national defence was half as determined as Israel’s. We would not be in the current mess. Israel is a fellow Parliamentary Democracy with universal suffrage. Their defence budget is roughly 5% of GDP for such a small nation. I’m sure we could do 7.5% with ease. Maybe more, much more!
Well our approach to defence in that case would need to include persuading the US to provide billions in military aid rather than a propensity to ripping us off in most of our deals. And collaborations.
Well 7.5% hate to say it but won’t happen ,but your right we could do a lot better in Defence it’s unbelievable how under funded and small our forces are .🙄
I’m suggesting, ‘dominance on the battlefield’ as demonstrated by Israel. Maybe using Hamas as an example was misjudged and should have used the comparison of UK V Germany in 1939 instead.
Israel has a tiny population, on 3 sides there are hostile states who have waged several wars against them in living memory, and they have ongoing territorial disputes and a literal terrorist statelet in their borders. The UK has a single land border with a friendly state, thousands of miles of friendly nations or ocean between us and our enemies (who are distinctly unlikely to attempt a direct assault), and a society for whom the strife of war is a foreign affair. We couldn’t do 7.5%. We probably couldn’t do 4%. Doubling the defence budget would make it larger than… Read more »
But Callum, if we were serious about defence my point is, we could do it. Simple as that! But education is apparently more important. (It would be, if spending was focussed on the needs of industry and the country at large. Feeding growth and raising revenue but that is another ) The end of the Cold War was a signal for governments to adopt the “ostrich on an island” approach. They buried their heads in the sand and repeatedly squawked about the 22 miles of English channel that allegedly protected us from Nazi invasion. If only that were true, the… Read more »
If we were generous and said education at 4% and defence at 4% that’s still less than a 10th of GDP and the assertion is that the govt wouldn’t spend more on defence than education. I think given the effects these two things have in terms of long term economic gain alone – which contributes to GDP the lager problem is what is happening to the other 92% of GDP and the priorities of our govt when two things that should be cornerstones of budgets amount to less than 1/10th.
Are you suggesting that Gaza should’ve been spending more on military capacity to attempt to deter Israel?
A big part of the issue there is a militant terrorist government with a stated policy – that they were ELECTED on – being the destruction of their more powerful neighbour.
I’m certainly not arguing for appeasement and rolling over, but perhaps Ukraine would be a better example for your point
Yes I agree, Ukraine would have been a better example but the level of dominance in Gaza is a sobering demonstration regardless of the opponent.
As the Ukranian Defence Minister recently said, ‘a Patriot missile costs a quarter of the cost of the facility the missile it takes out is aimed to destroy’. I think that is a metaphor for what our defence spending should be in this new World we find ourselves in, especially if Politicians wish to continue in their commentary on the World stage which means little should they actually have to stand up to the plate to back them up.
…and I thought that a former PM (Johnson?) had committed to 24 DD/FF?
But he’s not here now so what he said doesn’t matter.
One of the reasons big bad Ben Wallace quit would have been the coming years of defence.
Defence got its boost to budget in the PM, treasury eyes. Now that’s the budget and out of it we need a nuclear deterrence and a submarine for aukus and 2 carriers to show off to allies.
Anything else is secondary and needs to be met with what budget is left.
I agree that Johnson’s promises on a 24-ecsort navy have evaporated and that we will not see Shapps ask for and get more money as BW did (twice).
I do agree that Defence has had a Navy-orientated perspective (Dreadnoughts, SSNs, carriers are all well funded) and budget for many years since the ‘Year of the Navy’ (2017?) – not saying that’s a problem!
Just hope we don’t need to deploy that ‘armoured’ division anytime soon!
Yes but it is the Tories in power currently- ergo it is up to the Tories whether we have the required military power to fulfil our commitments, safeguard our national interest and protect our nation.
Basically every single thing that came out of Boris Johnson mouth in 2019 from increasing NHS funding to HS2, NPR and increasing defence was a complete lie.
No surprise, The Tory’s have done this at every election since I was born. What’s more amazing is the number of dumb f**ks in the UK especially in the north of England that vote for them expecting something different.
Boris did, in all fairness, order BII T26 and T31.
He gave BW space to sort the fleet solids.
Also he did give BW a lump of money to sort things out.
Unfortunately inflation ripped that up again.
So things decided will have to be undecided and unless someone very divisive comes in (not Mr Green/Shapps) the costs of kicking cans down the hallway takes a further toll on things.
To be honest labour are no better, better to not align to either of them. Neither are fit to govern.
Exactly, we are being constantly shafted with little opportunity to change the actual record. Worse stil they know that their golden oldie records will return to the turntable once the public get sick of the Govt that replaces them. Indeed the Tories are likely convinced 5 years of Starmer and inevitable infighting will mean they don’t even have to put their record back in its sleeve no matter how off key everyone knows the lyrics were.
👍
Yep, spot on, both bloody useless…..
Its not labour. Am I missing something here??? how long exactly have the Tories been in power?? I would hazard long enough to have sorted out any mess left by labour in the defence arena. Unfortunately it is the opposite, any mess labour made has been somewhat compounded upon by the Tories and their prolonged tenure of incompetence and self righteous self interest.
Let’s start with last election,as far as defence goes labour were unelectable. Let’s look to the next one, looks like labour will retrench to Europe and through in with Europe on defence, as per what Healey has published so far. So I’ll say it sgain both Tories and labour unfit to govern.
I don’t think we can say labour are no better as they haven’t been in power.
Until they are we can’t judge. I will be one of the first to complain if they mess it up.
Seriously have you seen what Healey presented to Rusi?
Problem is in our dodgy political system, we have little real choice or have the opportunity for new political entities and thinking coming into the equation while the self serving existing political parties tell us it’s our actual duty to vote. Talk about aving a laugh.
funny u could say the same about every labour goverment in my lifetime
They won’t cancel T32 it funding runs till after the election so they know Labour will be the ones cancelling it. If by dome miracle the Tories win they will cancel it. But no matter who wins its dead.
Tend to agree it’s being put on the back burner for others to deal with at which point they will crow about it being cancelled. Totally self serving. When was it ever not mind.
Seems the gov try to keep T32 quiet in any routing announcements that the public would hear but say they will build it whenever someone asks a direct question
Type 32’s will end up being cross between T-31 and B2’s ordered just to keep yards working while they decide whether to order T-83’s which will be 10 years late
Let’s face it, there’s more chance of the RN getting Two more carriers than Type 32 ever happening.
Labour should commit to a rolling 30 ship ff/dd fleet.
Open goal by the Cons.
Simple win for Labour.
Manning. Not an issue. Construct them, run them, sell them.
Build fleet and personnel numbers and, as and when able, man them.
Air is free, steel is cheap
and we need a modern fleet.
Manning is very much an issue David.
And you know, you’re not wrong. However, rather than foreign aid, let’s build the platforms with accommodation suitable for all, use the ships as sales platforms when they’ve done 10? 15? years and build numbers in platforms, and personnel who enjoy great harmony time on land and superb vomfort at sea. Life is changing, I doubt many youngsters would enjoy sleeping in a trench filling with snow and f.ing cold and hungry, nor would they enjoy work on the deck and of a freezing carrier just to go back to a ‘warm’ bunk; are they soft? Probably. Do they value… Read more »
Accommodation on the carriers, T45, T26, and T31 is already at a much higher standard than my day on the Invincible class. 6 or 4 man cabins, much bigger bunks, much more storage, better Internet access, a proper NAFFI shop, unlimited e-mail, sat phones ect. Proper gym’s. But foreign aid isn’t just about the military. Its about soft power and influence. And we get far more back than its costs us in foreign aid. Reducing it is short sighted. A drum beat is a good idea, but it requires long-term investment, and we simply don’t have that kind of funding.… Read more »
I’m in violent agreement with you.
Now, who else is?
We need that drum beat of orders and honestly. I’d want me own bunk – our society has moved on and we need to meet that need.
Foreign Aid can work but how do we purpose it?
We need a joined up Government that delivers for the UK.
It’s not the Cons. Unfortunately,
It’s not Labour.
So what have we been doing for the last thirty years David? 🙄
Hi Geoff. We took an End of Cold War premium that wasn’t available in retrospect. We bought platforms outside of a long term mindset and at the expense of ff/dd, we managed procurement badly – buying River2s, missing the opportunity to sell T26 into the American programme… We could both continue. Labour should commit to 30, selling off rather than LifeEx, and create that El Dorado of a drum beat. AI is coming, drones this, drones that. B52 does what it says on the box, as does the gimpy and even the SLR, younger hands do credit the SA80 A3,… Read more »
We didn’t miss the opportunity to sell the T26 to the US, we were actually excluded from even submitting it for a tender due to the provision to be an existing, in service Frigate. The US government did that because of the litany of disastrous purchasing decisions by the USN in recent years. LCS, Zumwalt’s, AGS and Ford class to name just the big ones. Its not all doom and gloom by any means the T26 is heading towards being a huge export success for the U.K especially for the supply chain and that is before we mention AUKUS. I… Read more »
That’s a lot to unpack! Steel. I live on the west coast of Cumbria. I raised with BAE their lack of sustainability in their material acquisition; BAE replied they were looking into local sourcing and trying to procure from UK sources. Yada, yada. West Coast Maint, I have no informed comment. The words spoken by BW were sophistry; he blagged it in Parliament and did so against a useless Labour Shadow and all his team. Really, I take no joy in writing this, the Shadow Team are a shower. I did write earlier that we cashed in on a peace… Read more »
Healey is not useless – why do you think he is? I bet he knows that the RN operate carriers, not the RAF – and that CR2 has a 4-man crew not a 6-man crew – and that it would be unwise to send in training teams and mentors to Ukraine.
In seriousness, Healey has mastered his brief and Shapps does not have a clue. Healey asks perceptive questions…and his conference speech was better than Shapps’s.
The type 26 could have entered the competition if it hadn’t been delayed so much is probably the way the argument goes.
If it hadn’t been delayed it could have entered the competition, yep completely agree. And I’m pretty sure it would have won the competition hands down. The industrial Synergies and crossovers from other US programmes would have tilted the balance. Not to mention the flexibility due to the hull dimensions and the advantages of working with RAN and RCN to integrate US systems. The History of the T26 is just one massive series of rethinks, delays and general Political interference (C1, C2 , C3 etc). How Camelune got away with cancelling the last 2 T45’s to “accelerate” the T26 is… Read more »
MS Can I pick your brains ? Lokking at NSbs timescales and the delays to the T31 delivery schedule, isn’t the MRSS starting to get a bit higher up the priority list.
Just wondered how or if the existing LPD, LSD, Argos could be extended ? Reason I’m asking is if they order the T32 and H&W are tied up with FSS where will they build the blocks ?
I think we will work needed for rosyth by 2030. The 31s are meant to be finish for 2028 originally. How much delay can be put in without costs rising significantly I don’t know. There will be the carrier refits in somewhere. The issues seem to be a lack of funding. The FSS main costs are going to be coming 2027-31, type 83, 32, amphibious replacements, SSNs, MCM and merlin is all need funded in 2030-40. No doubt there’s some other stuff also. Hopefully there is enough cash to get it all done. The money is the problem. No cash… Read more »
Please read your reply to MS.
Politicians jumped on the bandwagon David. The threat is over so let’s cut. Ho Ho Ho. What a joke. We’ve been under threat with one thing or another ever since. I cannot think of a single programme that has been successful from beginning to end in the last thirty years and it certainly isn’t getting better.
This would be the same Labour Party that cut AAW destroyers numbers from 12 to 6, sold off 3 T23 frigates and cut SSN numbers?
Yes, in the same way the 24th Foot lost at Isandlwana but went on to win at Rorke’s Drift.
Same name, different Company, different Leadership, but, yes, you are right.
Yada, yada
Agree but there again we have the conservative party who not just cut but got rid of MPA Harriers , Jaguars .Ship’s and manpower numbers in all three services .🙄 What does it take for them to wake up ⏰
A few gentle corrections. Jaguar fleet, that is, 6,41, 54 Sqns, 16R Sqn OCU all cut 2004 onwards, not the Tories watch.
MPA, yep, cancelled the 9 Nimrod MRA2, after Labour had reduced the buy from 21 to 9.
Harriers, same as above. most went under Labour, Tories just finished them off.
The rest, both are just as bad as the other and neither holds any high ground regards cuts..
Thanks DM for keeping me right I remember sea Harriers going under Labour and the rest under Tories sadly .Are we ever going Get a government who get it right in Defence ,one can only hope 🍺 🇬🇧
I’m not hopeful I’m afraid.
Our MPs seem to have open eyes 👀 but closed minds
Spouting without context Dan.
I know you hate being called out but you are becoming more Italian everytime write.
Roman Legionnaires had them, I just guess you were at the back of the queue; Romans were fearless, Italians just look for a soft life. And you?
Put things into context please, I’ll help you, I was born in Germany.
We need an economy that works not a Con, nor a… who are reform? Smell your coffee Dan, every time you post tosh, you’ll be called out.
David, give it a rest. I’m not “called out” over anything, I stated facts over when cuts happened to specifuc assets in reply to Andrew. Nothing more. “Spouting without context” Like, the Harriers, Jaguars, Nimrod and all the rest, is that not context? “Spouting” Have you been drinking??! And as for “hating being called out” I do believe I state when I don’t know something, and apologise when I err. Funnily enough, many don’t do that. So you’re talking cobblers yourself, sadly, especially as I’m befuddled at just WTF you’re on about re Roman Soldiers and me “sounding more Italian”… Read more »
Daniele
When you ad lib against Labour and sic ‘woe me behold,’ give it some balance agaist the disastrous years of Con govt.
From the 1990’s although Thatcher in 1980/81 should be dismembered.
Should you feel the need to run to the mods, be my guest. You haven’t served, have you?
Mate give it a rest with the ad hominems and racist under tones.
Hi Andrew ,the Jaguar force was cut by Labour in the 2003 review along with 1 of the 3 Harrier sqns. A summary of the cuts: RAF jet combat from 20 to 16 RB surface warship from 31 to 25 (3 type 42, 3 type 23’s chopped) SSBN from to 12 to 8. By stealth, Labour disbanded a further 3 Tornado f3 sqns (25,43,56 sqn) and 1 Harrier unit (4 sqn) prior to the the 2010 general election, so the RAF went from 20 to 12 sqns by 2010 before the Tories came into power . The crux of thing… Read more »
Cheers it’s upsetting to see the facts ,like I said to DM are any party going Get it right .🍺
🙏
I have little to add. K sums it up.
Both are hopeless.
depressing true Daniele – at lest we still have the pubs!
Context please. Why did Thatcher want cuts in the cold War?
Why did a Con govt take a peace dividend?
Why did Brown foxtrot the surface fleet?
(Genuine ?)
Why have the Cons screwed defence afterwards?
Fixtures and fittings expensive…
If labours current marxist shower ever usurp power in GB again. I’d support a coup d’état. But that is just me. It’s probably better to stick with the conservatists. Changing them from the inside to being extremely nationalist and militaristic once again.
Note, the conservatists within the conservative party. Not the Conservative Party per se. I just wanted to make that clear.
Usurp? And if they just win a GE?
Maybe we should give the Reform party ago 🤔
Their manifesto omits any change or new spending on defence. Otherwise, why not?
Remember, we have just bailed out the entire nation during lockdown with billions. As things stood before the CCP unleashed their latest plague on the world. There was more than enough money in the national kitty to “reform” our armed forces.
The way the world is at the moment you would think priorities would be on Defence ,but it’s like we’re liveing in Disdey land . 🙄
And a Politicians words are enough to hang them or get a cheap sound bite. Healey is the Labour shadow defence secretary and just loves stirring up the pot without adding anything better. He is a mid Yorkshire MP with zero interest in the RN, to be honest there are MPs who could do a better job of getting a firm answer than him. There are some who the Minister can’t fudge an answer to, then again it was a very poor question. If Douglas Chapman MP (Rosyth SNP) were to ask a better question then you really would see… Read more »
I doubt UK yards will be short of work Labour’s promising 28b a year on green energy. That’s a lot of welding needed.
There’s a queue for thinking Healey is cr@p.
Please join it, you’ll see me at the front.
The Johnson 24-escort plan has bitten the dust, apparently. The chances of 30 escort ships is therefore a pipedream.
19 frigates & destroyers just isn’t enough to sustain the scale of industry we say we want. Longer design/build times to keep shipbuilders in work leads to a death spiral of ships in service longer and longer, unit prices inexorably rising and fewer vessels being procured, reinforcing and accelerating the problem. The RN absolutely needs at least 24 escorts to do what’s being demanded of it, but the shipbuilding strategy also very clearly explained that building more vessels and selling older ones whilst they are still attractive to foreign navies is the only way to build the foundations of a… Read more »
I really like the Australian model of spending elements of foreign aid for the pacific nations in the form of OPVs. The vessels get built in Australian yards and keep those yards busy between Australian demand builds. Basic engines, radar and other fit out elements utilise Australian industry as much as possible. Create scale to keep Australian OPV costs down and maintain skills etc. With PRC fishing fleets expanding eastwards those OPVs are valued by receiving nations. Surely UK could follow suit…West Indies, West Africa etc.
Calling them OPV’s might be a bit of a stretch. They are 40m patrol boats (3,000nm @ 12 knots – 20 knot top speed), 17th of a 22 build run recently delivered. Its hard to pocket a 40m steel patrol boat without being noticed (if that is relevant). Something you may not be aware of is that they come with a RAN or RNZN liaison officer free of charge (per nation, not per boat) to help with operations. These officers know more about what is happening at the grass roots level in these nations than the official diplomats do. This… Read more »
Or just the UK overseas territories. I’m sure Bermuda could use it’s own OPV.
I like it, I like it a lot, if they did I’d lie about my age and join up. Unfortunately they really don’t need one, as they have some Police Boats and tiny Coast Guard. But as they have zillions of Dollars worth of Rich Yanks resident and sell shorts world wide who would ever want to attack them ? Uncle Sam is just next door and they really have some influence locally. But Bermuda is a vital cog in the British Empires Defence plan. After all they have our only pre positioned highly trained invasion troops who are all… Read more »
OPV’s aren’t there to protect them from attack, they’re there to do policing, presence, drug traffic interdiction, etc. A Bermudan Crewed OPV with RBR personel on board, or similar for other BOT’s wouldn’t be that far fetched, and probably would be appreciated by Uncle Sam.
That is a stunning idea.
You could build 2-3 of something like this:
https://media.damen.com/image/upload/q_auto,f_auto,w_1920/catalogue/defence-and-security/offshore-patrol-vessels/offshore-patrol-vessel-1800-military/damen-opv-military-1800-2
and either give them to a few of the BOT’s that could afford to crew them (Bermuda, Cayman, Gib, and maybe TandC Islands?) or use them to replace the B1’s and give he B1’s to the BOT’s.
Agreed. We know it will never happen, sadly!
With you on a target of 24. Why is it so difficult? Monies? Other priorities? Always! But T31s are at a bargain price and T26s have come down. Maybe this T32 is going to be somewhere in the middle of these two and they’re waiting to see how it develops and it could be linked to stuff going on behind the scenes with Aus, NZ and Norway. Hopefully it leads to a win all round, more industry, exports, and a tad bigger Navy. Read somewhere (on Janes I think) that Italy is selling two of its newest patrol frigates straight… Read more »
Agree with the comments below. Seems like a very opportune time for more T31s.
I agree 19 escorts is too few, but we don’t even have that. We have 16. I hope we grow the fleet back to a minimum of 24, either by 5 T32 or 5 more T31 batch 2. Preferably get back to c30 so we can cover all commitments adequately.
Given tight budgets I wonder if it would be better to save time and money on the concept and design phase and just build more T31 ships instead.
Need to review the design of prospective platforms periodically in the context of the threat environment. In particular- I suspect there are survivability lessons to be learned from analysing Russia’s recent experience in the Black Sea.
Spot on, Ukraine has subdued Black Sea fleet with few naval assets, western navies will need to rethink.
One hundred per cent correct. Ten T31’s and order them now. Announce that before the election and challenge Labour to commit. That’ll be the day.
Totally agree…..
Just remember the T31 is a derivative of the Iver Huirfelt design, which is an amended Absalon. So the core design will be 30+ years old by the time the 1st T31 enters service.
The shipyards are full, trained workforce is stretched, finances are finite so there is no point in ordering extra “old” designs right now because they will not be built this decade.
The Main Gate for the follow on to both T26 and T31 will be 2028 / 2030. There is no point doing it earlier.
Except that we probably won’t get anything. Defence will be so far down Labours list as to invisible.
I can’t agree. While timescales on T31 and T26 follow on are a bit different, neither should be a can kicked down the road. Rosyth plans on cutting first steel annually on T31s, leading to the possibility that a sixth T31 could be started Jan 2027 — if the long-lead contracts are signed by 2025. With work subcontracted both in the UK and Poland and the MOD determined not to change specification mid contract, it’s perfectly possible Rosyth will hit their deadlines. If the Type 32 comes out of Concept in April 2024 as anything other than a modified Type… Read more »
Horses for courses… Would this produce an imbalance in the fleet?
Not till we see if the Babcock Ships are any good or not. Rosyth and Babcock have never actually built a ship from scratch before. And let’s face it the issues with POW aren’t encouraging, but Babcock do have a reputation to acquire so will be committed to getting it right.🤔
The only downside of that is progress – technology in the Military sector is moving at a rapid rate,the IH/Absalon design on which the T31 is built will be quite dated by the 2030’s,if you lock into that design you are stuck with it.Id rather wait till the T31 is fully operational and evaluated before further Ships are ordered.
Precisely the original Absalon was scoped in the early 90’s and BAe was actually the prime design consultant for the initial outline design.
Got to say they nailed the brief, right down to a scalable, flexible hull form.
Navy Lookout had an article from June that shows a model of the Arrowhead 140 a slight extended hull for a loading ramp and a stern ramp for a USV. (Link)
Fair point 👍
Navy lookout didn’t an article called ‘Babcock showcases Arrowhead 140 Multi-Role Naval Platform concept with view to Type 32 frigate competition’ I would link it, but my post gets removed.
That’s a fantastic article with good pics. Can’t imagine that it’s development is all for nothing. Maybe the MOD is being a bit coy as you don’t want to give out too much potential market information too early to invite the competition in. Talking of T31, I wonder if India, Malaysia, Chile and even Greece would interested? Hopefully Aus and NZ will be takers.
A140, maybe. T31 – definitely not. Note that Poland & Indonesia are buying A140. Hopefully T32 is the A140 the T31 could have been.
I would also try selling it to Brazil.
completely agree with you Andrew.
I thought the 31 was all about affordability but their are limits
Ben Wallace said a while back: “What the Type 32s are going to be, how they will be designed, and who will build them is obviously a matter for between now and towards the centre of the decade.” i.e. it is a concept and nothing more at this point. In the absence of a design, agreed budget and confirmed timescales it would be difficult to say much about it- especially since a change of government is looking fairly likely before those decisions are due to be made.
Correct . Trolls out in full force first chance
Exactly – good quote.
As much as I want to see escorts increase above the planned 6xT42, 8xT26, and 5xT31, I see greater priorities over T32. I would rather priorities were MRSS, 2nd MROSS (maybe a 3rd), plus anything else so we have our amphibious, MCM, hydrographic, and infrastructure protection sorted before we worry about a third type of frigate.
Don’t believe this government will make a firm commitment to Type 32 one way or the other, and leave it to the next go ernment to make the call.
I hope we’re not planning on running 6xT42s! O_O
With you on that one 🤗
ha ha well spotted Dern !
Anyone listening to the present Investigation into the BJ Governments respond to COVID realises that a lot of the time Bo Jo said something he hadn’t a clue what he was in about. Before he announced it no one had heard anything about a T32 and not a lot since, so I’m not surprised nothing else gets announced anytime soon. I think everyone agrees on 3 things (I hope). The commitment to building 13 Frigates is a Red line, that no U.K. Government will walk back over (see the screens from SNP for details). Setting up a 2nd line of… Read more »
Agreed 👌👍
The last thing we need is more diesel powered frigates with little or no ASW capability given that we will shortly only have 8 escorts capable of ASW operations.
I’d far rather we built 3 more T26 than 5 T32. A stripped back T26 with no Mk41, a cheaper gun and two thirds the number of SAM’s to save cost would be fine. These ships could operate in task groups and home waters where other escorts and carrier/land based air power would deliver the AAW and ASuW role. This would free up the full capability T26’s for independent operations.
ffbnw done right 👍
When was the last time we had 8 working ASW frigates? If they weren’t out for refit, they’d be out for lack of crew. They aren’t even trying to fix Westminster.
You’d be lucky to get two T26s for 5 T31s.
Worrying. We need more ships, simple as that. At the moment we seem to both stretched as to commitments while overachieving in keeping ships in the water. Something’s got to give and we’ll face the naval equivalent of the NHS meltdown.
I’m just going to ask, what about the Type 83? Why is that also seemingly being ommited?
I hope it’s just that the reply was deliberately vague about real numbers and didn’t include new projects
Failing that, I don’t think the 83s were supposed to enter service by 2035 as per the question were they? V long term thing
Almost the same with 32, they can only be built after either the 26s (slot probs reserved for 83) or 31 ( Only going to finish build in c.2035, weren’t they?)
Toby J, the T31 construction will be finished by 2028, so either Babcock get a new frigate order or the hall, workforce will have to find something else to do. I would propose the Babcock version for the T32 as it is based on the T31 stretched a bit a stern ramp, flexideck and two large boat bays. It is the same issue for BAE and the T26 construction timeline. By 2032 BAE would be done to a single hull under construction and by 2033/34 the newly built hall will have no frigates to build. However the first of the… Read more »
Not sure you’re right about T31 being done by 2028. 1st one is supposed to be in the water this year, out for trials in 2025 and in service in 2027. So even on a 1 year drumbeat that’s 2032/33, and based on the photos of the seen of the build progress I think those numbers are soft. The build method appears old fashioned, no large block modules and not much evidence of much pre fitting. So outfitting is going to be slow and the design has been added to in build to accommodate a heavier weapons fit. Also remember… Read more »
Don’t get confused between the hull-build process being complete (2028), final delivery after fit out (2029-ish) and the final ship becoming operational (2031). Also remember that the first ship takes significantly longer to get through trials than the last, so 2032/33 would be pessimistic.
I agree Venturer will be delayed, but I’d expect them to make up some of the time on later ships.
The T31 build is fraught with unknowns and it isn’t exactly going to plan, which is a really major issue. The further it is delayed the less likely it is to get a follow on order and that is due to other planned priorities. If you have a look at the NSbs (revised) there is another impending high project getting nearer and it may well delay the T31/T32 extra Frigates thought up by BoJo. Our entire Amphibious force is due to go out of service in 2031,32,33 and 34. And it’s replacement is in plan and has to either be… Read more »
Argus has been extended as much as reason will allow. The same is not true for the others which can soldier on if needed. We could also build a couple of MRSS sooner rather than later if that’s all we can afford, but we won’t.
30 years old, 15 years of active service, remember. Between PiP and others, the T45s spent the first 15 years of their life working up, finding a problem and going home again
Way down the track Dern, T45 has had really quite minimal use, upgrades will keep it at the cutting edge, I wouldn’t expect to see T45 replacement launched before 2040.
Can’t say I’m surprised. I still think it won’t happen
I’d like to see the base proposal for argus’s sister shp mv brazant conversion to a help done navy lookout has a picture of it.which looks like a good idea.
Good to see the British Gov ensuring that the Royal Navy is fitted for but not fitted with the Ships it requires to do its job. Can wait to see the flowery language they will push out in which to explain this. Allow me to point you all in the direction of: JSP 101: Defence Writing Guide: General points 7. Get your message across. Your purpose in writing is to pass on information, to achieve an objective or to get something done. If you are misunderstood, fail to convince, or do not get the desired result, you may hold up… Read more »
Tee hee, like the effort Farouk
👍
One of the best guides to effective written report writing (or a base point for a presentation) I ever read.
Unfortunately the powers that be use Muddle, Confusion, Double Speak, Wishful thinking and sheer BS.
See evidence on Covid enquiry for details.
Oh and just to be modern add Non Confrontational, inclusive wokism to the list.
Ta Farouk that just made my day 😉
There’s not enough wars going on at the moment for any political party to commit to spending a few more shillings on defence. They’re all waiting on another one then they might have a chat about it! Wonder how long they’ll have to wait?
🤗
Nonsense, just because they didn’t mention it doesn’t mean it isn’t planned! Uk defence journal just trying to get more hits!
Yeah it’s not as if the questions are how many escorts will be in service at set times and the answer only mentio’s the ships currently being built. Oh wait that is what it says.
If the current government had any plans to build more escorts they would be shouting it from the roof tops at every opportunity
Hi Trev, I take issue with this. We do this as a volunteer effort, more hits mean more costs. I’d appreciate in future if you don’t post such poorly informed comments, cheers.
I will be surprised if they happen, simply because after each and every cut the new low becomes the benchmark to reach for the new builds, so 19. Which is itself a cut and way below the 24 minimum needed. To be fair, 32 is the number but fat chance that happening given the costs of such high tech kit these days unless the RN seriously dumb down their fleet, which I sincerely hope they don’t.
Evening Mr M. I’m going to throw you a curve ball, but it’s based on Historical precedence, political self interest and me being a complete Cynic (realist). IMHO what may actually get the number of surface ships up above 19 to 23/24 may end up being down to Political expediency rather than Defence needs. By 2028 Rosyth will be over the hump and running out of T31’s to build. Unfortunately they can’t just start to build anything bigger as H&W will be around and are much better equipped than Rosyth to build large ships (also NI really carries a massive… Read more »
Afternoon mate.
Trust you to throw a sense ball into the equation!
Yes, the sensible thing, both militarily and politically is keep building T31s to a different spec.
Could Rosyth be involved in the T83s?
Good Afternoon, Yep it’s all down to Real Politik and what they can get away with. To be honest I doubt the extra T31/2 will be built or ordered in this decade as the project slippages will reduce any window to build them. The constant juggling will continue, resources, facilities and trained staff are finite and we will have to prioritise. As I see it H&W will get themselves back in the game with the FSS and then what ? As you are well aware the next bit in the NSbs timeline is the MRSS project and in my mind… Read more »
I wonder what the chances of making the type 26 AAW variant? Perhaps in addition to type 83 if there is a gap.
So with electronics getting lighter, smaller and using the mk41 launcher area and the mission bay for VLS.
The benefit being it still has the ASW capabilities and commonality with the other ships. It’s basically a cruiser. With datalinks across the carrier group it could work nicely.
Really fantasy fleets but if there’s a gap and money we never know.
I know the original T26 was designed to be flexible and adaptable to ASW AAW and GP versions. But Canada and Australia are having issues with adapting it, I realise that they are trying to perhaps squeeze to much in but it does make me wonder. For AAW size matters so that it can accommodate more VLS and the stability for AAW radars. It also has higher power requirements for the radars, coolant systems etc so not sure a single MT30 is sufficient. I’d want to avoid yet another BAe very expensive and time consuming fresh design. That just eats… Read more »
The 26 size, power could be an issue. Also what I haven’t thought of is with extra stuff comes extra crew, supplies.
I like the 45, perhaps with a MT30 turbines, updated radars, quad pack CAAM, aster, hanger space for drones etc.
being able to bring down a lot of drones, missiles is going to become more important.
There might be some sense in focusing on current defence issues rather than some ships we are not sure what they are needed for or when they might arrive.
“T32 will happen, but not by 2035”. Clear message.
Anyway, Rosyth cannot be sustained as an “escort building” yard, regardless of T32 coming in early 2030s or not. Continuous building of T3X series in one per 1-1.5 year drumbeat there is simply impossible. RN has not enough money and manpower, and Rosyth is getting no “build export T31” yet (all local build). No surprise.
Rosyth shall Biuld MRSS or its blocks, MHC-LSVs, MROSS(2). Even “adding Mk.41 VLS to T31” work will continue until 2035 or so. Two CVF upkeep will also come.
The LibLabCon party is not interested in defence or defending the citizens of this country. Our governance is by a so called progressive liberal agenda. Described by one commentator as a garden of pretty flowers only. No crops for people to eat and live. No defence required, who would attack a garden of pretty flowers ? This is the fantasy world most of our virtue signalling politicians live. Until 2026 Hunt will take £ 70 billion from OAPs alone. Type 32 will cost as a guestimate 10 billion. Still gives 60 billion to pay those interest charges. But no he… Read more »
Will ruin it, they have managed that already in spades! The RN is currently in the long winded process of becoming a carrier strike Navy. That’s it, all that’s left of the active escort fleet over and above that requirement is for delousing our on patrol SSBN and Gulf responsibilities, with a very minimal surge ability when required to support NATO or Gulf/ Mediterranean re-enforcement. Even with 19 escorts at our disposal, we are unlikely to have more than 13 active and deployable. If we aren’t going to increase that available number by raising the fleet, then Germany, France, Italy… Read more »
The question should have been “How is the type 32 project progressing?”
IMHO it’s probably still in the concept phase, the only alternative states are it’s either “on hold” or canceled. I reckon right now only the RN knows where the project is at (assuming it has not been canceled) and have not bothered to brief the politicians.
We were told last year T32 wouldn’t be coming out of concept until after Tacticos integration was complete on Venturer.
It does seem a bit odd if an order is still planned in the “late 2020’s”.
Although personally I think a better option would be buying a few more T31’s rather than incurring the expense of a new design and the logistics and training problems associated with operating three classes of frigate. The money saved is badly needed in order to progress the MRSS project in a timely manner, or we will end up with yet another capability gap as the Albion’s and Bay’s pay off without immediate replacement.
Forget the type 32, never Will be built, British ministry of defence alias ministry of cuts.