UK and Saudi Arabia sign new defence agreement

Only the uppity bit

The engine in the F35 is a Pratt & Whitney . The Typhoon’s engine is a RR EJ 200.

Well they were backed by Bin Laden’s wealth, he was from a billionaire family. He was Saudi too, but you can’t blame an entire country for crimes of citizens acting on their own initiative.

What the IRA considered themselves to be is completely irrelevant, unless you want to appease them. They were British citizens… as were most of the 7/7 bombers (one being born in Jamaica), though again they wouldn’t have considered themselves as such.

Indeed there have been UK and indeed US Companies caught giving money to terrorists one French Company last year indeed was prosecuted for paying of ISIS for free access to its business. It doesn’t mean all French citizens or the Govt are ISIS supporters. There is indeed nuance whatever one’s possible suspicions about high end Saudi involvements in such matters.

The thing with Saudi I think, is that there is so many incredibly wealthy people with links to the government, eg the Royal House of Saud has 15,000 members, that it’s easy to mistake the actions of one or more individuals as being the official position of the government.

IRA was back by wealth in the US, bad people are everywhere so I don’t see the relevance to call KSA out on it.

I did it, as did others here because if they are friends , they are bad ones and make poor allies. They have financed terrorism worldwide and their human rights record is appalling. They are bad actors.

A few of the IRA terrorists were actually British one the daughter of an English aristocrat indeed.

That’s true. Rose Dugdale I think?

Total nonsense. If Bin Laden were backed by Saudi petronwealth he’d be able to afford an airforce not a plane ticked and a box cutter. Why do you think he was living in a cave?

The biggest backer of Islamic fundamental is was arguably the CIA who zfinanced their war against the Soviets

True. In hindsight a Pandora’s box was opened when the Afghans Mujahadeen were first financed and armed.

No he implied that the 9/11 bombers were relevant by raising it in the first place. It’s a fact they were Saudi, but totally irrelevant because they weren’t acting under the orders of the Saudi government.

No I’m not defending Saudi Arabia, it’s human rights record is poor. But criticise it for the things it’s responsible for, not for things it had no involvement in 🤷🏻‍♂️

I raised it because not only the fact that they were Saudi, but that the same country has and is responsible for financing terrorism worldwide, not just 9/11, but many of the jihadi attacks on British soldiers in Iraq and Iraqi citizens. We saw similar activity by Pakistan authorities during the conflict against the Taliban. They played both sides.

Nationality must mean something about someone’s identity, otherwise why do we have passports, citizenship, places of birth as an identifier etc. ?

We have passports and citizenship because we have nation states 🤦🏻‍♂️
Those states needs to know who their citizens are because of their rights and duties to those citizens and vice versa. That pretty obvious 🤷🏻‍♂️

And there were people in the U.K. raising money and sending funds to the Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS, should the U.K. be condemned for ‘funding terrorism’? Of course not.

• You cannot hold a country or it’s government responsible for actions taken independently by its citizens.
• You cannot hold the citizens responsible for the actions of its government, though they are responsible for allowing that government to be in power.

There has been proven financing and cooperation between the Pakistan intelligence services and the Taliban.

Can you comprehend the difference here?

I comprehend a lot. But I remain unconvinced that there isn’t a link between those Saudi 9/11 bombers and the Saudi authorities. There is no way that that level of planning, execution and financing not only of them, but all the other attacks on coalition forces in Iraq happened without some tacit knowledge or support from a Saudi ministry somewhere. The 9/11 bombers and other insurgents may not have had official Saudi blessing for their actions, but they weren’t really prevented either. It’s a fairly moot point to the families of the dead and maimed servicemen as to whether the IED or suicide vest had official Saudi sanction, but I suspect that their views on the Saudi Arabian government being our friend are a lot more circumspect than yours.

I don’t hold a country responsible for the independent activities of its citizens, but I don’t believe those actions (9/11) were entirely independent of the then authorities . The likes of the Bin Ladens didn’t become billionaires without strong government contacts.

Certainly, none of the attackers were Iraqi.

Well you might be incapable and not competent to of imagine or plan such an attack without state help, but plenty of other people have achieved seemingly incredible events over the years without the help of government.

So you think everytime that someone gave Bin Laden’s dad a contract to build something, they said “don’t forget to put x% aside to fund terrorist attacks”?… 🤦🏻‍♂️

But I suspect I’m wasting my time pointing out how illogical your accusations are and trying to reason against your paranoia/xenophobia.

There’s nothing illogical about it. I’m neither paranoid nor xenophobic. You don’t have a monopoly on the truth Sean, any discussion with you always ends up with you making ad hominem attacks because you can’t seem to accept that someone may have a view that doesn’t exactly chime with yours. I never said that Mohammad Atta et al were representing the entire Saudi nation. You twisted my words into something else.

But yeah, putting x% aside in finance is how these groups get their funds. The difference is that if it happens on these shores it’s a crime. I don’t believe that there has ever been a conviction in a Saudi court ( not that jurisprudence there would be up to much) for directing or financing terrorism.

It’s neither racist, paranoid or xenophobic to point that out.

I assume you blame Jamaica for 7/7 attack as although it

“may not have had official Jamaican blessing for their actions, but they weren’t really prevented either”

given that Germaine Lindsay was born there?
Thats the logic you applied to 9/11 and Saudi Arabia, that’s you’re phrasing.

I’m just intolerant of stupidity and ignorance, I admit it’s my worst character flaw 🤷🏻‍♂️ However as a scientist I know there is only one version of the truth, when you start accepting others then you get into flat-earth territory.
Views aren’t valid just because someone holds them fervently.

As for misrepresenting, you’re doing a pretty damn good job of that yourself, perhaps so good that you don’t realise it. Actually, so good that you convince yourself the misrepresentation is the truth.

No, I don’t blame Jamaica, show me where I said that. We can have debate without resorting to personal attacks, my position on Saudi is more nuanced than you are twisting it into and I expect it is shared by a great deal of people. Ignorance and stupidity are encapsulated in that reply you have just given, you being a scientist has no relevance to my point, now go and deploy your emojis somewhere else.

So you judge an entire people by the acts of their government? Oh dear!

No. I’m judging the Saudi authorities who for years have run with the hare and hunted with the hounds. They play both sides. Those financial streams to those nihilistic terrorist groups would not be so prevalent but for official Saudi ‘blind eyes ‘.

Zero proof.

The terrorists that you claim Saudi Arabia supports loathe the House of Saud, regarding them as apostates to Islam 🤦🏻‍♂️

Worse than that, he judges an entire people on the acts of some individuals who are unconnected to their government 🤦🏻‍♂️

No Sean, that’s not what I said. Don’t twist what I wrote.

Yep plus I wonder what other countries think about us chopping bits off schoolkids to satisfy transgender activists ?

So we should sell to them because if we dont someone else will so it better to have thei money in our coffers- regardless of how the weapons are used.
Pity we didnt have massive arms contracts with Hitler in1938 we could have made a killing …lieterally…still I suppose we made up for it by supplying Stalin afterwards

Well the US did of course indeed US Companies built as many vehicles for Germany as it did for the Allies, only when they entered the war did morality come into the equation.

You’ll get your way after the next election. Labour (The Guardian) is very keen on an ‘ethical’ foreign policy. The last time it was tried nobody outside cared a rats arse. Apart from every other arms exporter in the world who happily filled the gap in the market. By the time it was reversed half our defence industry was gone never to return. But i’m sure next time will be different.

Absolutely correct, a fundamental part of being human. My only point is that Guantanamo is not part of this article.
Cheers