The Ministry of Defence has recently addressed concerns surrounding the procurement of the E-7 Wedgetail aircraft.
Kevan Jones, the Labour MP for North Durham, raised multiple questions relating to the E-7 Wedgetail programme.
Firstly, he inquired, “To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, when he plans to finalise the full business case for the E-7 Wedgetail programme.”
Subsequent questions touched on the change in forecast delivery dates and requested a recent estimate for the delivery of the third E-7 Wedgetail aircraft. Mr. Jones asked, “To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, for what reason the forecast delivery of the first E-7 Wedgetail aircraft has changed from 2023 to late 2024.” And, “To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what recent estimate he has made of when the third E-7 Wedgetail aircraft will be delivered.”
In response, James Cartlidge, The Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, provided clarity. He stated, “The In-Service Date for the Wedgetail capability, including dates for delivery of all three aircraft, will be published in the Full Business Case expected for submission in the first part of 2024.”
Mr. Cartlidge also shed light on the reasons behind the delays, noting, “There have been some delays to the aircraft delivery schedule, due to contractor performance and a combination of shortages in materials, parts and skills which are being felt across the global aviation industry.
Additionally, the contractor has underestimated the complex and increased assurance activity required to enable flight certification following Boeing 737 MAX aircraft accident investigations. We are working closely with Boeing to minimise the adverse impact of these challenges.”
The E-7 Wedgetail is an advanced airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft. It’s designed to provide airborne surveillance, command, and control capabilities, offering a real-time view of the battlespace, enhanced situational awareness, and the ability to guide decision making.
The Government faced a great deal of criticism for reducing the purchase from five aircraft to three aircraft.
UK forced to pay for five radars despite cutting Wedgetail order
Oh good. Another delay, although I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised. I would love to hear that because of the delay that we will take another look at five but I won’t hold my breath.🙄
So am I correct in myunderstandingt that we have procured or are commited to procure 5x RADAR/electronics but have decided not to procure 5 x platforms to house it.
What is the rationale for that exactly – surely its just the inital outlay costs that need to be covered as maintenance capability is already in hand & 5 x planes will be just as easy to maintain as 3x …probabably easier in fact, or is that too simplistic?
Correct. Just basic stupidity as far as I can see..More below
‘An absolute folly’: UK lawmakers’ scathing report on E-7 Wedgetail acquisition – Breaking Defense
Too Treasury
Would a declaration of a UOR for airframe Nos. 4&5 by the Defence Secretary be sufficient to override objections by HMG’s Treasury? Reports have circulated re several successful, expedited, UOR acquisition programs in support of HMG’s forces deployed to the Sandbox. On occasion, a flanking maneuver may be more successful than a frontal assault. 🤔😳😉
Granted*, my two words were somewhat flippant Former, but are you aware of our new *Defence Secretary? Oops, there I go again…😒
Also should this be a concern:
“the complex and increased assurance activity required to enable flight certification following Boeing 737 MAX aircraft accident investigations.”
How many accidents have there been exactly?
346 people died in two crashes. Lion Air Flight 610 on October 29, 2018 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 on March 10, 2019.
That was enough!
Right now it would be remiss of me not to think there might be some implications here true, but the Wedgetail is based on the ER 737 or NG which wasn’t implicated in the later Max problems which were fundamentally due to badly written software (arguably design decisions based on time and cost too) produced to counter negative aerodynamic effects due to and deal with the fact that the Max exploited much heavier engines without redesigning or moving the wing to address the changed centre of gravity et al. So there was no direct effect on NG itself or indeed other versions of the 737, only, one would have thought the pressure upon Boeing and other technical staff perhaps on being able to give these Wedgetail conversions the time and effort otherwise that might have been allocated. Even so as they are more of what had already been produced previously it would be interesting to know how the Max problems overflowed into this programme in any substantial manner, or is it a way of somewhat covering the Company responsible for the conversions having its own problems as the report otherwise implies.
737-800 is the foundation of E7 Wedgetail so does indeed predate 737-Max and MCAS.
Just the two that were max specific. Other recent 737 incidents were not MCAS related just sad statistics of being part of a fleet of over 8000 in service units (All 737 variants).
Oddly whilst the wedgetail and Poseidon are new they are based on the previous generation of 737. An airframe that civilian operators have not been able to purchase since 2018.
Civilian operators have different motivation e.g. £/PassengerKm flown, Noise, Emissions, whereas Military operators are more concerned about the huge cost to develop and improve the aircraft over its service life which will probably be many times the civilian equivalent since something cheaper came along. So they gave it back to the leasing company…
Short answer? Yes. The longer answer is the great UK procurement plan in which we decide on something , change our minds, then order part of it anyway, not use it until it’s too late and by then we’ve forgotten what we bought. 😉
Sadly, truer words were never spoken. 👍
🙁👍
It is a delay because the previous delay was itself delayed (etc)
Thrice delayed and more to come no doubt.🤔
If they had delayed the delay long enough, wouldn’t we get them on time?
The E-7s are based on the 737NG are they not? The issues with the 737MAX shouldn’t overlap.
If you look carefully the image on top, you will see the flat bottom design of the engines on the E-7s. So that means it’s a Max platform.
Two of the UK E-7s (N946BC, N947BC) are ex-Chinese 737 BBJs (basically a 737-700ER) and the third (N576JK) is a new build 737-700. None of them are MAX.
I’m pretty sure that the 737 engines have had some sort of flatness since the 737-300. Either way, the E-7s are based on NG 737s.
“the complex and increased assurance activity required to enable flight certification” – It’s not for the aircraft type, it’s an increase in the complexity of assurance for all aircraft following the 737 Max issues which were assured for flight when they shouldn’t have been – so the rules have been tightened up. And that has caused a delay, because the original assumptions on the timescale were made before the change.
A very fair analysis
Actually that complexity was already present, just Boeing tried to short cut and manipulate it on the MAX to make the aircraft more appealing to buy by not exposing how intrusive the 737MAX changes were. I don’t see why the original time scales should have not included following the certifying bodies guidance to the letter. I read into this is Boeing needs to provide more evidence they are following the rules as trust has been lost.
Given we were told the reason for the cut from 5 -> 3 was because by the time #4 & #5 were delivered they would be out of date?
So these will be out of date from delivery?
Just checking……..
so following their own rationale I assume the government will now be cancelling all of them then 🙂
Don’t give them ideas. 😱
That was my tongue-in-cheek point that is the inescapable reductionist logic…
First I have heard of that one, seems odd as the US has selected it and won’t get theirs until starting from 2027 and other Countries are it’s reported interested in ordering them. Is this argument actually based around the argument that airborne EW will itself become obsolete because of satellite or other technologies? If so it has a point but not sure that anyone has put all their eggs on that argument or will anytime soon. A big calculated guess at best I suspect as things stand, as satellites have their own potential issues and reliability surely as technology and environments develop.
Sounded like nonsense to me too.
Considering the age of the RC-135W Rivet Joint airframes (B707) the B737NG is a puppy and certainly not obsolete. Lower operating costs given the size of B737 in commercial service….
As a pleb in this area I fail to understand how other countries recieve their equipment on time and fit for purpose. Am i wrong?
If we’d have gone for the A330 with a SAAB rader mounted would we have 5 instead of 3 entering service now rather than who knows when?
Saab was possible on a large business jet like a Bombardier . It would be insane to put it on an A330 size platform. The same certification issues arise as the Max showed the government authorities were asleep. Airbus is delayed in its new longer range A321 for the same reasons
The issue with MAX were Boeing didn’t tell the governing bodies everything. They were afraid doing this would force the MAX pilots to needed retrained meaning buying MAX would have big costs for training and put off airlines from buying.
We need at least 5 & yesterday this is not a capability that should be gambled with! It’s insane that the UK cannot afford 7 of these or manage to procure them in an orderly manner. This should have been a known quantity from previous acquisitions Australia, Turkey. We’ve had an IR & it has stated there’s a threat why no reversion to 5 or realisation that actually an increase is required due to the increase threat environment 😐
Because these things actually cost real money. And we don’t have enough of it in the equipment plan along with everything else we want to purchase.
We only have three RC-135W Rivet Joint so it’s only saved by USAF within NATO tasking.
Different purposes but niche capability we already do, sadly. We should have more of these too
I suspect delays will probably increase as the US is trying to find ways to increase the delivery rate on their order !!! The reality is that 3 of anything will never be enough as there will always be one in some form of servicing or update programme.
I don’t know what the purchase price of a MESA radar is, however, the phased array antenna of the AN/APY-2 radar used by the E-3 family of AWACS, consisted of roughly 30 gold plated ‘sticks’, with an original price tag of $1 million +. If the UK MESA contract demands the extra purchase of 2 complete radar sets, including the Wedgetail phased array antenna, the UK will be paying a great deal of money for the 2- ship spares. Not only that, if the Wedgetail antenna is anything like the E-3 antenna reliability, the 2 spare antennas are likely to be expensive dust gatherers.
Is that supposed to mean that the E-3 is reliable
The E-3 phased array has always been reliable, even though the radar itself required regular maintenance. Not bad though when considering the first NATO E-3A platforms were delivered as long ago as 1981.
Uk in the future start to put its AWAC Ana ASW assets on the Japanese P1, a more modern and better aircraft for these roles than the B737. We are told there are 2 extra wedge tail sets already purchased. Put those on P1 aircraft.
This will help solidify the cooperation with Japan on GCAP and other defense acquisitions.
Britain is buying an existing project which is the 737 based E-7. All the design work for the radar on top and the in flight stability has been done. The software development took some time, as Australia found out.
No way would they start again with another airframe, suitable that the P-1 might be.
A big issue here is hidden in the wording
“ due to contractor performance and a combination of shortages in materials, parts and skills ..”
They have a dud contractor
UKDJ covered this firm before
“ STS Aviation Services and its Birmingham site for the conversion work on the United Kingdom’s fleet of five Wedgetail Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Mk1 aircraft”
This also stands out , as the first choice dropped the work
“The work was previously announced for Marshall Aerospace and Defence Group, the firm however have withdrawn from the project…”
STS also submitted a fixed price contract back in May 2020. I can imagine this became impossible to stick to.
Agreed and probably required skills which STS didn’t have and are difficult to recruit for just a one-off project with only 3 aircraft.
🤔 Maybe we should of gone for another Aircraft type ,I just hope we don’t have a carry on with this defence project 🙄🙏
What about a Nimrod AEW?
Mmm we better give that one a miss Gareth, 🤗 great aircraft in my book as Sub hunter ,Spy Plane .But AEW bit of a flying 💰💰💰💰 pit 🇬🇧
Juat get 5 .even if two are held in reserve so we always have 3 in the air.
They have paid for the radars so makes financial sense.
I am confused, the airworthiness of the UK modified E7 will be the reponsibility of the UK Military Airworthimess Authority – not the FAA. I cannot belive there is very much of the 737Max in the E7 – different airframe , flight control system, engines etc etc. So why has the Minister tried to muddy the waters by calling up the 737 Max issues. Also the RAAF is operating very much the same aircraft (its why the E7 was so far ahead of the evaluation of options) there must be almost 99% read across of airworthiness data from the COA. Perhaps the real problems are down to subcontractor inexperience and staffing, difficulties of replacing vital components which are currently obsolete (E7 design is over 10 years old) and the usual total underestimation of the sytems integration task and testing – much as I predicted when the contract was placed and the schedule became clearer.
The FAA is requiring extra inspections of the sub assembly being developed by contractors, primarily spirit aero systems – Who will ironically begin producing 737 parts in Belfast soon.
So these parts are different to parts fitted to other 737s and military 737s?
If that’s right is that not really silly for 3 aircraft?
I’m not clued up on aircraft requirements to fly, FAA stuff etc
They are the same parts. Mostly to do with the tail. Extra inspections are required. The entire 737 production rate is slowed, all customers and airlines are affected. This has been known for months btw.
I am equally confused as the wedge tail is already flying with other nations. What am I missing here.
On re-reading the ministers statement I detect a distict possibility of further slippage as the mInister talks about ‘in- service’ dates not ‘delivery dates’.
Just to point out the reason for the delay. It was found earlier this year that Spirit Aerosystems whom Boeing subcontracts out work to regards building fuselage’s had been fitting 2 attachment fittings in the vertical fin forward spar incorrectly and had been doing do for year, Whislt it is deemed that the planes are safe to fly each and every 737 body has to be checked and there lies the problem
Just to point out the reason for the delay. It was found earlier this year that Spirit Aerosystems whom Boeing subcontracts out work to regards building fuselages had been fitting 2 attachment fittings in the vertical fin forward spar incorrectly and had been doing do for year, whilst it is deemed that the planes are safe to fly each and every 737 body has to be checked and there lies the problem I quote from April 23:
Boeing halts deliveries of some 737 MAXs amid new supplier problem
WASHINGTON, April 13 (Reuters) – Boeing has halted deliveries of some 737 MAXs as it grapples with a new supplier quality problem by Spirit AeroSystems (SPR.N) that could stretch back to 2019, the U.S. plane maker disclosed on Thursday. The issue will likely affect a “significant” number of undelivered 737 MAX airplanes both in production and in storage, and could result in lowered 737 MAX deliveries in the near term, the company said. The problem, which affects a portion of the 737 MAX family of airplanes, including the MAX 7, MAX 8 and MAX 8200 airplanes as well as the P-8 Poseidon maritime surveillance aircraft based on the 737 NG, is not a safety of flight issue and in-service planes can continue to operate, Boeing said. The Federal Aviation Administration said it had “validated” Boeing’s assessment that there was no immediate safety issue “based on the facts and data Boeing presented” and the agency will evaluate all affected aircraft before delivery.
The problem involves the installation of two fittings that join the aft fuselage made by Spirit to the vertical tail, which were not attached correctly to the structure of the fuselage before it was sent to Boeing. Certain versions of the aircraft, like the MAX 9, use fittings from different suppliers and were correctly installed. Boeing was officially notified about the problem by Spirit on Wednesday, however the problem is believed to date back to 2019 and the company is still determining how many aircraft could be impacted, Boeing said. Spirit said it is working to develop an inspection and repair for the affected fuselages. Officials said the FAA is likely to issue an airworthiness directive that would mandate an inspection and repair regime.
Not related to Spirit factory
These 737s for UK are second hand of the older model 737-800, which are maybe 10 years old The issue was only for recent builds
Complete shower. Who is in charge assuming there is someone in charge?
Not convinced anyone is in charge at the minute.
What’s stopping them ordering the remaining two instead of just being spare radars gathering dust somewhere in a warehouse? Okay there’s been a stuff up here but it can be un-stuffed! And add on a few more P-8s.
This might be silly, but any suitable spare BA 737s available for conversion at bargain prices?
Off Topic: I see there’s been a short rolling landing of an F-35 on Prince of Wales. Navy Lookout’s Insta has video.
Lot more to come on that front via Navy News, as you may know. RN really starting to push the boundaries on QE Class/airwing operations, ref faster/heavier turnaround, in conjunction with RAF & USMC. Last time over there QE sort out pretty extreme weather; this time they are planning to do the same with POW, but whilst operating the F35s, etc. Likely see the weapon-capable Mojave trailed soon as well.
HMG should phone Mr Ryanair he has no problems getting 737in the air
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Ryanair are also having Boeing delivery issues as well.
So why do we build subs, carriers, frigates, destroyers ourselves but aircraft we buy some foreign. Surely if there a case for foreign airframes then we should apply the same to ships or vice versa, if we need to own the design and build of ships why not the airframes we use. Its not like its a volume issue with 9 P8s that’s more than any ship type we’ll build, closest being the T26 at 8.
Appears to me the issue is more political than logical, with ship building having some strange emotional attachment. which is odd because for the larger part of the last century we were far more dominant in aerospace than shipping building.
That’s a very fair Point 👍 🇬🇧
I suspect it is costs. The cost of developing the T26 design was ‘only’ a few hundred million. The cost of developing a new aircraft is always going to be in the billions, if not tens of billions.
We can build enough of a warship design to make it feasible to maintain the design expertise. For aircraft we need collaborators.
I really think we have the capability to do it planning etc it’s about money 💰as always.🙄
It is insane to buy radars for the 5 AEW planes and then cut the platform numbers and still buy 5 radars… the cost saving of cutting 2 platforms id minimal. It is quite clear to anyone who wishes to have a credible capability that 5 planes is a minimum not 3…
Correct me if I am wrong but did we not have 7 AEW Sentries.., then it was 5 Wedgetails and now 3… just like there were going to be 12 type 45s, then 8, then 6….
So we only appear to get half the stuff we need. And then we discover it is not enough.
RAF had only been using 5 in the latter years of E3 use to cover tasking hence only 5 x E7, however E3 could be air-refuelled, maintaining constant overwatch would have been easier.
3xE7 will be a struggle to just cover the northern approaches, no options for use elsewhere around the world……..global Britain?