Ben Wallace, the Secretary of State for Defence, outlined his intentions with regards to the UK’s post-Brexit defence relationship with the EU.

Allan Dorans, the Shadow SNP Spokesperson for Foreign Affairs, asked the Secretary of State for Defence:

“What plans he has for future military and security co-operation with EU (a) institutions and (b) member states.”

Ben Wallace, The Secretary of State for Defence, replied:

“Although we are leaving the EU defence structures, we remain committed to the security of Europe and will continue to co-operate with the EU and European nations on a bilateral or multinational basis on shared threats and challenges. We do not need an institutionalised relation with the EU to do so. The defence settlement reaffirms our position as Europe’s leading power, with the second highest defence budget in NATO, providing leadership and the ability for investment to help to drive forward NATO’s adaptation.”

Dorans then asked:

“Any major conflict will require UK forces to be able to work collaboratively and fully with EU forces in the future. What steps has the Secretary of State taken to ensure that that is possible through access to the European Defence Standardisation Committee, which replaces the former Materiel Standardisation Group?”

Wallace replied, explaining that NATO is the authority on military standardisation.

“The leader in the field of standardisation has always been NATO, with the setting of NATO standards, which have let us interoperate with our allies the United States and all the other nations of Europe. It would be wrong to abandon that to adopt another approach. We all know in Europe, whatever part of the EU debate one is in, that the United States is the cornerstone of European security, and that is why NATO is so important.”

Subscribe
Notify of
guest
132 Comments
oldest
newest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
farouk
farouk
6 months ago

The EU as it stands faces threats from: 1) Russia 2) Turkey 3) Polarised religion Russia would be a NATO issue, Turkey would be an EU Issue On the other foot the UK as it currently stands faces a very serious threat from the EU. With the EU having just hit the Brexit negotiations with a last minute demand that EU fishing fleets be allowed to continue to fish in British waters for 10 years , it appears that they wish to consign the UK to vassal status . Now before anybody tries to shoot me down a a far… Read more »

Cymbeline
Cymbeline
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

I’ve seen that reported before and anyone that supports that argument should be happy to lets say China entry to fish in there waters, I think not.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
6 months ago
Reply to  Cymbeline

No expert with fish migration but could we have used that one with Iceland. Where I do know this could be a problem is with an independent Scotland as shoals of mackerel work their way down from Scottish waters into English waters during the season. Not sure therefore that’s a precedent we would wish to set in ice.

Jim
Jim
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

It’s not bigoted, you’re just missing the context of the situation. Brits don’t eat the fish caught in British waters, they’re sold into the EU. If EU ships can’t fish in British waters at least to some extent then British fisherman won’t have easy access to the EU market. There’s no point catching fish which you can’t sell. So basically both parties need to find a mutually beneficial compromise and not waste vital and limited naval resources on policing something as irrelevant as fishing.

farouk
farouk
6 months ago
Reply to  Jim

Thank you for your reply. Allow me to explain the above in a language you may understand. The EU has stated that the Uk will lose all the benefits of being int he EU when it leaves. This will include: Freedom of movement Access to the police database Reciprocal medical treatment Use of Galileo and the right to fish in EU waters All of which they and others have stated will result in the UK losing money But and a big but, the EU has demanded (not asked, not requested, but demanded) that its fishing fleets be allowed to continued… Read more »

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

All the things you’ve listed out in regard to what the UK will lose access to is do to no longer being a member, however fishing has other issues, some access areas predate the existence of the EU, others have EU fishing boats having legally bought quota’s from UK boats and now are being told that investment is worthless… At the end of the day a core issue is most of what the UK might catch in UK waters would need to be exported to the EU anyway as the UK doesn’t eat it (though now is unlikely to be… Read more »

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Dont care about pre dating access. It is a sovereign country’s right to decide who, when and where access to our territorial waters is granted. That is supported by EVERY known and recognised international law. The EU has zero right to demand ongoing access. Otherwise we could just say ok we are going to partition off Paris and Berlin as UK territory. Same principle.

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

But the U.K. also still wants tariff/quota free access to the SM, so something has to give.

Derek
Derek
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Exactly, we do want that! As other countries have, without legal interference from the European Court. Prior to the EU, other countries also fished our waters under license, the conditions of which were set by the UK. We are simply asking them to do so now and we will control and manage our fish stocks responsibly. As for most fish being sold to EU, we could not sell ANYTHING to ANYONE, other than where the EU told us to because we had no trade agreements independently. We do now. We have new markets for our fish. As an example, Brazil… Read more »

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  Derek

No other countries don’t, the few that do like Norway for example do have to align with the ECJ rulings and the Aquis. Third Nations have quotas and tariffs on their goods coming into the SM, something the U.K. is trying to avoid, which is one of the problems.

As for selling to other nations, it’s amazing that others in the EU manage, just watching testing of pilot boats out in Cork Harbour that go all over the world, while container cranes are being loaded to sail to the Caribbean…

Mike
Mike
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Yes we will give them tariff free access and we buy a hell of a lot more from them than they buy from us. Galileo cost us much and our technical expertise and knowledge was paramount. The fact they cut us out shows what an evil organisation it is.

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  Mike

Oh for FFS, the U.K. is being refused access for the restricted part of Galileo because of the Treaty rules that the U.K. pressed for when as a member the project was being created. Don’t whine when it’s your own fault.

4th watch
4th watch
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

No Its a condition of leaving to have Access to the SM via a Trade Agreement. Also we owned large parts of France; So what.
Its really very strange that the EU pursues its ambitions into its neighbours waters.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
6 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Indeed it is very likely based on historical maps that west coast fishermen were fishing Canadian waters before Canada had been ‘discovered’ or Columbus even came on the scene while Icelandic waters were fished for many hundreds of years yet arguing with those countries we have rights there would and have been laughed out of Court. So suddenly arguing we however do not have similar rights is somehow so typical of guilt ridden Britain. as for the Turkey situation while NATO would have an interest the situation where one member attacks or threatens another creates serious problems for NATO as… Read more »

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Freedom of Movement: The UK has requested this end not the EU so we can bring in quotas on immigration. Access to the police database: Again the UK opted out on privacy grounds. Reciprocal medical treatment: Another Brexiteer negotiating target to end, dont want those foreigners using our NHS. Use of Galileo: Only change was they wanted to end Britain having access to the admin rights as a now foreign power no difference in usage rights. EU had rights to fish in British waters before we joined the EU, at that time it was commercially unfished by the UK as… Read more »

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

For the Police database/security info it’s also as the UK has refused the ECJ, which is required for the level of access the UK had as a member.

farouk
farouk
6 months ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Please don’t promote falsehoods as facts, from the Guardian in May UK and EU clash over crime-fighting database in Brexit talks The UK is set to lose access to the Schengen Information System (SIS II), a massive EU database, where police across the continent share millions of pieces of information on criminal suspects, at the end of the year. The EU has said it is legally impossible for non-EU countries not respecting free movement of people to access the database and has proposed more basic information sharing….EU negotiators want to maintain police data sharing with the UK, but say their… Read more »

Last edited 6 months ago by farouk
Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

You’ve answered your own point though, the UK choose not to allow the oversight/involvement/engagement of the ECJ, there’s only one outcome at that point, nothing to do with “punishing the UK”, just abiding by the Treaties.

farouk
farouk
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

You state abiding by treaties, yet it is the EU which wants to change them. Be it fishing rights, Gibraltar or even the Falklands (They hosted the Argentine government the other week regards the Falklands ) , Northern Ireland and even Scotland the EU has shown it ambivalent nature towards the Uk.

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

I stated treaties as in the treaties that govern the EU and make up its rules. The Brexit the U.K. picked automatically closed off the areas that you are complaining about. As to Gibraltar and NI, the EU is always going to side with a member over a non member, that’s not new. For Scotland, other than saying of course they can apply as an independent nation what else is the issue? And as for Argentina, the EU can have whatever level of interaction with any nation, there’s zero treaty that says anything about that. The U.K. may not like… Read more »

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Agree with Mark over Falklands the Argies can meet the EU but the fact remains. The Falklands are a British overseas territory. They have been since the 1800s, albeit with a 2-3 month period when controlled by Argentina when they illegally invaded and occupied the territory. The population if the Falklands, many of whom can trace their lineage back to the 1800 and 1900s voted with a massive majority to remain a British overseas territory. That referendum was probably the only good piece of intelligent government Cameron and Osbourne and all his cronies ever did. In summary Argentina can bog… Read more »

Sceptical Richard
Sceptical Richard
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Whatever your views on this, Jim’s fundamental point remains true. The logical, non-partisan, unemotional solution to all this is to reach a compromise agreement where all parties win a little and lose a little and we can start worrying about bigger issues than fish.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Funny Farouk but yes agree it is tantamount to abuse and in NO trade deal ever envisioned was there ever a demand to control access and fishing in another states territorial waters.
Time to build some ramming ships. With hardened bow and flanks “HMS Thunderchild”

Mike
Mike
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

THe EU want access as a right. They will want their ECJ to adjudicate. They do not accept our territorial waters. They can fish on licence, and hopefully pay but they must not get their evil hooks into our independence. Fishing was a massive UK industry before the EU wrecked it with their CFP, and charged us a fortune to do so. We have left. Hopefully Boris will not submit to EU domonation.

Joe16
Joe16
6 months ago
Reply to  Mike

Sorry, that’s not true. Our fleet was not killed y the CFP, it was killed by the government of the day and their own inaction. The narrative is that we have a dwindling fishing fleet that is being pushed out of our home waters by the European fleets, who have the lion’s share of the quotas because of protectionism by their own countries. The quotas were decided back at the beginning, based upon relative size of active fishing fleets. Except a large part of our fleet wasn’t active at the time, it was in port living off of government subsidy.… Read more »

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  Jim

I would eat more fish but because so little is landed in the uk due to common fisheries policy the price is astronomical.
I would love it if price of Cod, Haddock, Sole, Scampi and prawns, Plaice etc were reduced as we are landing more in the uk (from the UK fishing grounds) and its availability is increased.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
6 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Indeed I can rarely afford to eat fish and certainly the UK fishing fleet has declined immeasurably since EU membership so a bit rich claiming it’s too small to be important when we were so desperate to enter that we as good as sowed the seeds for its massive decline. Hey I say this as a long term supporter of EU membership but also knowing that my home town of Barking was actually in my grandfathers time a fishing port. There has to be compromise and yes ‘bigger fish’ need to be taken into consideration but moral rights of ownership… Read more »

Jim
Jim
6 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

So little is landed in the UK because Cod and Haddock aren’t caught in our waters. The fish caught in our waters are popular in Europe but not in the UK.

Joe16
Joe16
6 months ago
Reply to  Jim

Exactly, that’s why the cod wars happened in the first place- the cod wasn’t available in our own waters so we went to Iceland.

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

EU had the right to fish in UK waters before we joined the EU and these waters were commercially unfished by the UK whose fishing fleets operated in Icelandic waters. Then along came the Cod Wars.

farouk
farouk
6 months ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Watcherzero wrote: “”EU had the right to fish in UK waters before we joined the EU”” No, they didn’t. they only earned that right when the Uk joined the EU in 1973 “”these waters were commercially unfished by the UK “2 Again incorrect, i suggest you look up  fleetwood – Grimsby – once the largest fishing port in the world Lowestoft Newlyn Whitby KIngston upon Hull “”whose fishing fleets operated in Icelandic waters.”” Why does everybody presume it was just the Uk V Iceland, you left out: Germany Denmark Belgium As for not catching fish, the fish catch was deemed a national priority… Read more »

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Actually states did have those rights, Irish hulls access UK waters as that’s what was before 1922, just as NI boats access ROI waters for the same reason, the Dutch recently pointed out they had a Treaty dating back I think to the 1600’s that gave them fishing rights in certain areas. It’s not nearly as simply as saying before 1973 they didn’t have access.

farouk
farouk
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Ireland is a special case , which is why Irish people can vote in UK elections

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

And UK people in Irish elections, but that’s not the point, there are historic pre-existing access and agreements that became redundant after 1973, and that might be reasserted now.

farouk
farouk
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Yes it is, you stated that Irish fleets had access prior to 1922, you opened that door (Just for your info NI fleets do not have access to Irish waters ) and thus cannot change tack when I play the exact same cards

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Yes NI boats do have access to Irish waters, a third of their entire catch comes from Irish waters. I presume you are trying to use that incident a couple of years ago that was resolved in a week to say otherwise?

farouk
farouk
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Mark wrote:
“”Yes NI boats do have access to Irish waters, “”

from the BBC a year ago:
Northern Ireland fishing boats impounded by Irish Navy

Two Northern Ireland fishing boats have been impounded by the Irish Navy. They were detained in Dundalk Bay on Tuesday for alleged breaches of fishing regulations….At present, Northern Ireland vessels are banned from fishing inside the Republic of Ireland’s six-mile limit. But the Republic’s fleet has not been excluded from Northern Ireland waters.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47401104

Last edited 6 months ago by farouk
Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Maybe follow up the story, as I said that was resolved within a couple of weeks, and to give you a bit more info, the issue was Irish fishing groups took the existing arrangment to the Supreme Court and won their challenge, with it being struck down. However at the time given the numbers in the Daíl the Government couldn’t get a replacement passed. Said Fishing groups then preceded to register repeated complaints about the NI hulls that were continuing to operate as before until the NS was forced to impound the two ships. Couple of weeks later after some… Read more »

farouk
farouk
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Really I provide a link and you ….nothing. On that note here is a story from the Irish independent:
Irish Naval Service ships will be needed to deal with tensions at sea if Brexit negotiators fail to broker deal over fishing rights
https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/irish-naval-service-ships-will-be-needed-to-deal-with-tensions-at-sea-if-brexit-negotiators-fail-to-broker-deal-over-fishing-rights-39601625.html

Last edited 6 months ago by farouk
Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Here you go then, sorry to have wanted to avoid wasting time searching (though I do wonder how you missed it?)
https://www.thejournal.ie/northern-irish-boats-voisinage-explainer-4579094-Apr2019/

Pretty much exactly as I told you.

And yes, the AC and NS have long been flagging that they may have to deal with a lot more activity post Brexit, that’s not news at all.

farouk
farouk
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Mark,
the article you cite is dated April 2019, the BBC article i posted is dated Nov 2019

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Ah, no it’s dated February 28 2019:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-47401104

Bob2
Bob2
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

In 1973 uk waters only extended 12 miles from the coast. Fishing in the north sea beyond 12miles from any coast was unregulated as it was classed as the “high seas” and could be fished by any nation. This changed in the 1980’s with the introduction of the EEAs when the whole of the North Sea came under national territorial waters, but we had already joined the EEC by then so the waters were a shared asset (uk got f**ked over on this as the eec introduced the shared asset rule just before we joined). So basically fishing rights in… Read more »

farouk
farouk
6 months ago
Reply to  Bob2

Bob,
Do you think it is acceptable if the EU demands that they have the right to fish in UK waters and send in their navy to escort their fishing vessels

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Where have they even suggested that? Given the limited OPV’s for the patrol area I imagine if EU hulls want to take the risk they will do so anyway.

farouk
farouk
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Mark wrote:
“”I imagine if EU hulls want to take the risk they will do so anyway.””

Wasn’t that my original point,

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

No, your point was that “EU Navy” were going to be involved, this is “unlikely”.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

I’m not so sure, in the channel French fishermen have in the past openly attacked uk vessels over disputes, they are renowned for being bolshie at the best of times, which is why French politicians are bending over backwards lending their support especially with an election on the horizon. They have a power massively beyond their importance to France and have regularly taken their protests into stopping British ferries from docking even when there is no direct British involvement in their disputes, we are just pawns in their bigger games. Their behaviour has been historically appalling so I suspect it… Read more »

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

If the EU wants to take the risk then as I’ve said. A warning. Then a warning backed up by military vessels and aircraft. Then a warning shot to leave immediately. Then EU fishing boats and naval vessels freely engaged. We have that sovereign right and are supported by international law to defend our own territorial integrity.

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

The Grimsby fleet fished in the North Sea off the coast of Norway and up towards the arctic, not in British waters. The Fleetwood fishing fleet plied the seas off Iceland. In 1973 when Britain joined the EU already 8 times as much fish was caught in British waters by non-British boats as British ones. in the 1990’s half of English fishermen sold their British government given quotas, this wasnt a UK wide issue of foreign competition, purely an English one, look who still owns the quotas for the much larger Scottish waters and the Northern Irish waters.

comment image

Bob2
Bob2
6 months ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

What is also interesting is that the fishing quotas for Scotland and northern island are owned by a very small number of fishing baron families, who then sublet these quotas out to other fishermen, who are often foreign. In the case of northern island the main fishing baron there sold all their boats years ago as it was easier to make money from their quota “tenants”.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  Bob2

That is why Gove is changing the quota system on 1st Jan. Any boats with a right to fish in uk waters and by default having a quota must be UK owned and operated.
That resolves that issue nicely.

simon
simon
6 months ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

All this fuss over ~£850 million

Lordtemplar
Lordtemplar
6 months ago
Reply to  simon

Agreed.

farouk
farouk
6 months ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Again you promulgate falsehoods. Here is a lot of information you appear not to reveal: Before joining the EEC (European Economic Community) in 1973 (which became the European Union in the early 1990s) Britain – like most other countries in the world – controlled its own fishing waters. This was a zone extending 200 nautical miles from a country’s coastline (or the median point if another country is closer than that distance), an area known as a country’s Exclusive Economic Zone. With EEC membership Britain would control a zone just twelve miles from the UK coastline, with the rest of… Read more »

Last edited 6 months ago by farouk
Bob2
Bob2
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

EEZs came out of the Third United Nations Conference on the Law of the Sea which did not conclude until 1982.

Bob2
Bob2
6 months ago
Reply to  Bob2

Farouk, sorry if I am coming across as persnickety in my replies. I just get a bit annoyed with the argument that we will be getting control over our waters again, when in fact we will be getting control over a much larger fishing area than we ever had before 1973. The knock on effect of this hard brexit is that continental North Sea fisherman are going to loose access to fishing areas that they have previously always had access to. It is a bit odd that their governments are only just realising this and are rushing to their defence… Read more »

John Clark
John Clark
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Brave man Farouk, ‘He lights the firework and retreats to a safe distance’.

Pass the matches…… At the end of the day, the augments twist and turn, but it effectively goes down to the EU going out on a limb to ensure no other EU states have audacity to even think about leaving….

farouk
farouk
6 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

JC,
You’re not going to believe this, But I am actually pro EU. However that said I do believe that the UK as a sovereign nation should not become a vassal state of anybody and that includes the EU.

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

No, no it isn’t. It’s about the UK being just the same as ever other nation that is a Third Nation to the EU.

John Clark
John Clark
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

I disagree Mark, but healthy discussion is a good thing.

I’m sure that once all the willy waving is done a deal will be agreed….

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

To be blunt, the political upheaval the UK has inflicted on itself over the last 4 years has been plenty of a deterrent itself.

Eventually some sort of a deal will be done, but the UK is never going to have the same level of access/rights that it as a member.

John Clark
John Clark
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Access yes, rights no Mark, the EU can do it’s thing and we will do ours….

Like I said, once the public consumption pondering is done, there will be a deal and the dust will finally settle …

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

Not likely, it’s more likely to end up in a variation of the Swiss situation where there’s constant low level pushing and pulling over everything.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
6 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

I suspect you are right, heard only yesterday that the German car industry is expecting serious lay offs with no deal that shocked me.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Who do you think buys a large proportion of German and more importantly German owned company’s cars? The UK How many new Audi, VW, Mercedes, Porsche, BMW, Skoda, Seat are there on our roads…..answer….a lot. I’m gobsmacked the EU dont just say. Ok we will pay you a license fee of 300-400 million a year to fish in your waters. UK decides quotas. That way we preserve access to the UK market. Net result of EUs belligerence and actual wish to punish the UK is that there are going to be a lot more American, Japanese and South Korean cars… Read more »

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Very true it’s an unequal fight that’s for sure, and I see few signs that we are as a Country capable of exploiting whatever opportunities exist in the World free from the EU. We are more interested in over priced land and property development than the required innovation required. The great innovators we do have have rarely been properly supported by the square mile and if they do succeed are sold off to mostly foreign owners for a quick profit and returned to property. So I am not clear what this supposed freedom from Johnny Foreigner is really going to… Read more »

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Oh ok so the EU demands access to Egyptian territories or Libyans or Russian? As a right?
Clearly not. As a 3rd nation they would tell the EU where to go.

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

But as 3rd nations they don’t ask for what the U.K. is asking, trade offs are needed.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

That’s simply not true whether one is pro or anti Canada has for example been given different rights than those offered to the uk dexoite having been offered a Canada type deal. The basis they argue right or wrong, is that the UK being so close to the the EU creates a different dynamic in many aspects of negotiation. In many ways one can understand the argument but one thing is certain, to claim the uk is deemed ‘just the same as any third nation to the EU’ is simply not the case and the EU has said so itself.… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
6 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

Bravo.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

Agree it is project punishment. The EU wants a no deal situation so that UK is punished for its populace daring to vote to leave.
They have to show a negative impact to the UK otherwise without any doubt other countries will leave the EU.

4th watch
4th watch
6 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Agreed one only has to look at the History of the EU’s reaction to various referendums.Ignore or tell them to go back and try again.

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  4th watch

No the EU hasn’t done that.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Denmark

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Agree without a deal agreed the EU by default will become an opposing power that will likely try to push the bounds of our resolve to guard and safeguard UK territorial integrity. I think if any EU naval ships enter our waters to guard illegal fishing activities then that will be a very provocative step and unfortunately should be met with the strongest resolve and military power.
They get a warning. Then a warning via confronted by uk military. Then a warning shot. Then engaged at will. That is recognised international law for defending your territory.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
6 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

I guess in a worst case scenario we might get a better idea of the relative capabilities of the Typhoon and Rafale. (I hope that’s a joke)

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Typhoon with meteor. Typhoon wins. F35B with Amraam and Asraam, at medium range F35B wins

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
5 months ago
Reply to  farouk

I only recently learned that French trawlers took 3/4 of the fish in UK waters during our EU membership. Not sure what the deal is post-Brexit – hopefully we are allowed more than 25% of our own fish!

Airborne
Airborne
6 months ago

Very little changes militarily, as we are still a cornerstone of NATO, and will still be operating with the EU in various overseas operations I am sure. Military leaders have different outlooks than politicians and have a more professional ououtlook on defence matters. We are tight with the French in regard to operations and training, just need to get Macron to stop pandering and acting the big man on BREXIT. No I don’t think much will actually change, although there will be superficial changes which make a big headline but have little impact.

Cymbeline
Cymbeline
6 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

The biggest problem from what I can see is from the transport sector and the import/export controls at the border. Is the transport industry prepared? Do all ports have the necessary syatems in place?? do Border Force have enough trained staff to be able to cope with the additional paperwork and checks??? will HMRC systems be able to cope or will their IT systems fall over????

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  Cymbeline

No to all of those questions at the moment.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

Well handled Mark, that’s a long discussion, and you kept your cool ???

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

I wasn’t trying to be a smart arse, it’s just from every sector, from shipping, to the ports, to customs, to haulage, all a sounding alarm bells about their readiness for next years trading environment.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
6 months ago
Reply to  Mark

I think Farouk has visions of WW3 with the EU ?

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Sounds like he wouldn’t hate it.

Airborne
Airborne
6 months ago
Reply to  Cymbeline

Correct mate but militarily little will change and the question was posed by the SNP Defence spokesman, more to try to drag out a few anti English and anti Brexit headlines than to do with a genuine military concern.

Airborne
Airborne
6 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

My bad foreign affairs spokesperson, comment still stand however, the aim stated was still their intent. Cheers.

Steve Martin
Steve Martin
6 months ago
Reply to  Cymbeline

At least we have an agreement in principle now over Ireland and Northern Ireland. Quote (sky news): “”An agreement in principle has been found in the following areas, amongst others: border control posts/entry points specifically for checks on animals, plants and derived products, export declarations, the supply of medicines, the supply of chilled meats, and other food products to supermarkets, and a clarification on the application of State aid under the terms of the Protocol.” The two sides have also reached an agreement on how goods will be considered “not at risk” of entering the EU when moving from Great… Read more »

geoff
geoff
6 months ago

Boris stated early on that the UK wanted the closest possible relationship with the EU after Brexit. That is something I would support fully and would encompass a close military alliance in parallel with our membership of NATO. On the wider Brexit issue i can genuinely see from both sides. The UK wants its independence and the opportunities that may offer, but it must therefore accept that it cannot enjoy the benefits of EU membership to the same extent as ‘a priori’. You cannot be a member of any Club without observing the rules within reason

Peter Crisp
Peter Crisp
6 months ago

I can’t imagine any scenario where any EU country is attacked and the UK doesn’t help as much as we can. Even if we didn’t send combat troops we’d send in field medical units, transports and all other types of ways the military can help.

I would hope the public outcry if we didn’t help would be huge.

Cymbeline
Cymbeline
6 months ago
Reply to  Peter Crisp

Peter your right in that respect, European security is just as important to us whether we are in or out of the EU. I do hope a deal can be done, but I fear not.

Captain P Wash
Captain P Wash
6 months ago

Just read through all the posts, Blimey, this is certainly Entertainment !!!!

john melling
john melling
6 months ago

Wallace – “We all know in Europe, whatever part of the EU debate one is in, that the United States is the cornerstone of European security, and that is why NATO is so important.” Well I disagree that the only reason that NATO is important is only because of the United States I think NATO would get on okay with out them NATO is not the USA, NATO is a group of countries And it would simply adjust. To me that piece of statement was just a ” ooh I best mention the yanks in the speech” When a BREXIT… Read more »

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  john melling

It does make my blood boil. We have consistently been there for Europe. Complete reverse from our friends and neighbours.
It’s all too one sided. We give. They take. That has to end. It’s time the EU started actually behaving like our friends and neighbours.

Joe
Joe
6 months ago

“reveals” is a bit misleading, a more accurate phrase would be “makes comments on the potential relations”

James
James
6 months ago

The idea of supporting EU defence plans is dangerous and puts NATO at risk! Britain must make up it’s mind really on being fully EU member again or make NATO its core main security umbrella. Any British EU cooperation on defence will weaken NATO period ! The EU disputes with Turkey a key NATO ally has nothing to do with Britain very good defence relation with Turkey. Britain is No longer an EU state so should act independent and not dragged into EU Turkey disputes

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  James

I would agree but Erdogan does seem to be a tin pot dictator. Why has he arrested and detained large numbers of academics, journalists etc? Why does he continue to support Russian meddling in Syria and actually purchasing Russian military hardware, against NATO unified request not too. Why is Turkey shipping arms to support a more radical insurgency and attempted staunch Islamic military take over in Libya? Turkey needs to be treated with respect and tried to be brought back into the NATO sphere of influence. However I think the reason they’ve turned more militaristic and supportive of Erdogan is… Read more »

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Amazing how all the ills of the world seem to be able to be laid at the feet of the EU in your mind. There is a clear and well defined process on how nations can join the EU, along with the benchmarks and checks that are involved, the EU is still dealing with the repercussions of being rushed into the Eastern Expansion and issues around rule of law there. For Turkey there has long been issues around governance, human rights, economic stability, not too mention being in dispute with a member already. Though given the UK was one of… Read more »

Paul Walker
Paul Walker
6 months ago

It seems a bit lost on some here that the EU wasn’t formed until 1993. Before that it was the common market and stuff. So the EU cannot have been fishing in UK waters in 1973. The EU is only 27 years old, not the 50 years some claim. In any case, unless someone invents a way to raise the UK anchor and float off, we Europeans of the continent of Europe should really try to get on with each other.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
6 months ago
Reply to  Paul Walker

Morning Paul. It’s not lost on me. We voted to join the Common Market. The EU is something else entirely, which is why so many voted to leave. There were no referendum on any of the treaties since signed by HMG to actually ask if the public were happy with what was happening as the CM transformed into the EU. We should get on with each other! We are all European, after all. Being in or out of a political club should have no bearing on that. I can be friendly and exchange things with my neighbour without insisting that… Read more »

Robert1
Robert1
6 months ago

I guess the argument that might be maybe regarding referendums is that we we’re a representative democracy so we don’t vote on all the treaties individually because we voted for parties who should have had clear answers on their vision on those treaties in their party manifestos (whether they did of course is a different part and the point is moot now anyway). We will get on with each other both politically and otherwise – its in all parties interests no matter how they might like to pretend otherwise – all of this is posture. EU might like to pretend… Read more »

Herodotus
6 months ago
Reply to  Robert1

Exactly, though there is little understanding of what a representative democracy actually is. A little reading around Edmund Burke would help!

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
6 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

What significant or little understanding there may be is not be the issue, though, is it? It was seen fit to give us a referendum on whether to join the Common Market. Those significant numbers of the electorate who feared that it would devolve into something more encompassing in time were rest assured by our representatives that they would never let that happen ‘over my dead body’ to quote one such. Well, guess what, the EU ensued (as effectively perceived by these people with ‘little understanding’) and no referendum on this greater constitutional issue was forthcoming until evidently such time… Read more »

Herodotus
6 months ago
Reply to  Gavin Gordon

Thanks for telling me what I understand…….perhaps I haven’t been teaching history and politics to undergraduate level for the last 20years…must have dreamt it. As to the nature of our democracy….it is key to the understanding of how decisions are taken and what the duties of an MP are. You may not think that this is relevant, but I do. As for referenda, the one on the EEC was held by Harold Wilson’s government after we had already joined……I remember voting to remain…surprisingly ?

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
6 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

You’re very welcome, Herodotus. Of course, you’re correct about the relatively short delay before the Common Market referendum. I also voted remain but with reservations, giving our Representatives the benefit of the doubt on the direction of travel within Europe. Hmm. By the way, one could contrast the representative nature of Denmark’s constitution compared to our own at around the same time, should you wish to split hairs on this subject forevermore. Of course not a given, but your answer with regard to teaching political history to graduates may possibly colour your view of the abilities of people to make… Read more »

John Clark
John Clark
6 months ago

But what if you catch them stealing goldfish from your pond Daniele, after all the previous owners used to let them take goldfish and you can’t borrow their lawnmower anymore if you don’t……??.LOL

I’m likely to be called a Brexit supporting idiot again soon, I can feel it coming…. Ha..

Herodotus
6 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

Not at all, but I do think that you should have apologised to George and all those NHS staff that died partly due to the lack of PPE. Those workers that were largely from the BAME community….you know, that community that the likes of you and Farouk don’t want in this country. But then, you aren’t man enough…are you?

John Clark
John Clark
6 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

Wow, you really are a very angry, watch that blood pressure.

I get it, we all do, “anyone who voted for Brexit is a racist idiot”.

Stereotype much!

It’s that arrogant type of attitude that lost you the referendum in the first place, so keep it up idiot!

I’ll have a go….

Stick to left wing lecturing your poor impressionable captive audience at school.

Quite fun really?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
6 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

What’s even more hysterical is that farouk himself is a Muslim BAME. And he wants BAME out according to H, who states as such above.

farouk, what a credit to this country you are, proud of you and your military service. Proud of your views and opinions. Respect.

There you go. Me, a Brexiteer cheering a BAME on this website.

So H, you have no idea what your talking about.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

I’ve lost 2 BANE nhs colleagues to covid and seen many colleagues become ill having caught covid at work. Often off sick for protracted periods of time and when returned to work usually having some long covid symptoms. The price of our care for wider society is NOT appreciated, clapping will not cut it anymore. There will need to be a full public inquiry into HMGs response to covid and how woefully unprepared we were. Which led directly to a terrifying number of people dying. China has also got some very very very serious questions to answer. Especially as “covid… Read more »

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

BAME not BANE apologise for large fingers, small screen.

Herodotus
6 months ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Hopefully any enquiry will be independent and have teeth….though I doubt it. We also need to know who profited out of this miserable episode and require the money to be returned!

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
6 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

It is the default position. Race. Must be hysterical for the BAME UKIP members I met!

Herodotus
6 months ago

If there were any NHS workers amongst them, I doubt that they are splitting their sides. Still, your chum seems to think that it is funny!

John Clark
John Clark
6 months ago

Afternoon Daniele, I wouldn’t bother mate, certain people have the view that anyone who doesn’t confirm to their particular framed view of the world is a ‘racist’, whose too stupid to understand that the EU knows best’, its lazy, terribly predictable and all rather boring.

It was also a prevailing attitude of sneering superior condescension, that certainly helped us win the referendum at the time, so I suppose we can thank these folks for helping to push the vote across the line…

Herodotus
6 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

Well John you must forgive those that might feel superior to you…I’ve seen dog faeces that could claim that!

John Clark
John Clark
6 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

Another cutting and insightful comment from the resident UKDJ looney.

Stop trolling you tiresome boring little man…

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
6 months ago
Reply to  John Clark

Afternoon John. Agree. From the Euro elections 2014 to the vote in 2019, during every election they got wrong, shock on the faces of experts on the BBC and Sky who still get it wrong and fail to get the mood of so many. Yep, I still remember the SWP types in a crowd opposite us on a Brexit demo in P Square, chanting “racists racists racists” endlessly. Our crowd included war vets in wheelchairs.. and black people who also think the UK is better off out of the EU. Embarrassing. Not for them, but the chanters. I have been… Read more »

Herodotus
6 months ago

If you are going to comment on these issues, can you try to use paragraphs rather than bullet points. It looks as if you don’t really understand the real issues. Cheap popular newspapers use the same technique (Daily Heil). Chris Patten has forgotten more than you know about foreign relations. With all your scouring of Wikipedia, you are just an undereducated right-wing populist.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
6 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

Evening!

What Spiteful comments.

And all points ignored.

You should try replying like Jonathon and actually debunk points raised. He can explain things without insults. I can link you to the relevant thread if you wish.

Clearly I’m far superior to you. In more areas than you’ll ever know.

Regards!

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
6 months ago

Do insert reply below and try to have the last word.

I’m sure you won’t disappoint!

John Clark
John Clark
6 months ago

Evening Daniele,

Oh dear, don’t bother mate, Herodotus is just embarrassing himself and coming over as ever so ‘slightly’ unstable…

Just ignore him, as they say, don’t feed the trolls!

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
6 months ago
Reply to  Herodotus

Wikipedia?

No no no, BBC website yesterday. No need for Wiki for that.

John Clark
John Clark
6 months ago

Beutifully put Daniele, I wholeheartedly agree, as we have discussed many times before, democracy is the very foundation of our country and everything that has followed from the referendum has simply been enacting the will of the people. I have to chuckle at the lengths some of the liberal remain side have gone to trying to subvert that historic vote. It seems a liberal Guardian reading attitude isn’t quite so ‘liberal’ if the vote dosent go their way! The anti democratic obstructions have been numerous, following the tried and tested ” throw enough sh*t at the wall and something is… Read more »

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
6 months ago
Reply to  Paul Walker

Agree Paul. The EU was born out of the EEZ. And free trade. Its how morphed into this super arch federalistic state. European boats from sovereign foreign countries may have fished in our waters, with our permission for decades. But guess what?
They weren’t EU boats and things change.

RichardB
RichardB
6 months ago

I now live in the Republic of Ireland and when reading the local papers or talking to people I’m constantly amazed about the disconnect between a dislike (or occasionally far worse) of the UK, and the assumption that the UK (and NATO) will defend a “neutral” Ireland from any military threat for free. When I’ve tried to challenge this assumption, the common come-back is that Ireland has more than pulled its weight in UN peace keeping operations (Congo, Chad, Lebanon ..) – with near continuous deployments since the 1960’s ranging from company to battalion strength. But the UN financially compensates… Read more »

John Clark
John Clark
6 months ago
Reply to  RichardB

Hi Richard, I have to say it’s absolutely true that Ireland more than pull their weight in UN operations. Irish defence is entirely geared towards policing it’s own territory and UN operations, it’s been geared this way since the creation of the Irish state and I can’t see that changing. Unless ever closer EU integrated and the natural completion of the European project overwrites neutrality.. The EU is certainly serious about creating a military wing and with this coming to be, individual foreign policy positions of the 27 States becomes irrelevant. I would imagine this situation will follow on the… Read more »

Mark
Mark
6 months ago
Reply to  RichardB

Why Mercenaries? The UN mission are at best break even for the DF and have cost a hell of a lot at times (also mainly are the driving force of equipment changes for the DF each time the DOD is dragged kicking and screaming into spending). The DF strength for most of the last 50 years has been driven by the Troubles and trying to keep enough strength for such duties (it’s often forgotten in the UK that the DF was deployed all the way to Cork through out the Troubles). As to the position on the UK et al… Read more »

Ryan Brewis
Ryan Brewis
6 months ago

So on a slightly unrelated note, what’s the thoughts about France going ahead with looking at augmented soldiers?

Mark
Mark
6 months ago

Ireland to purchase two new “smaller” OPVs to base out of Dublin for Post Brexit operations in the Irish Sea, looking at two 40-50m hulls that are in service but not used by another navy, with an option to buy new builds from a European yard (suggests French to me?). Eithne and Ciara will formally decommission once they are purchased.