The United Kingdom has consistently shown its support for Ukraine, particularly following Russia’s invasion in February 2022.
A recent report from the House of Commons Library details the scale and nature of the UK’s military aid to Ukraine.
The report notes that “So far, the UK has committed a total of £4.6 billion in military assistance to Ukraine.” Notably, this assistance won’t be deducted from the MOD’s budget but will instead be met from the Treasury Reserve.
In comparison, the United States has provided a staggering $43 billion since February 2022, placing it as the top provider of military aid. Including economic and humanitarian aid, the UK’s total commitment to Ukraine since February 2022 is £6.5 billion.
The types of aid are comprehensive, here’s a rundown of the headline items.
Financial Commitments:
- £4.6 billion in military assistance to Ukraine till date.
- £2.3 billion provided in 2022.
- Commitment to match or exceed the 2022 assistance in 2023/24.
Lethal Weaponry:
- Anti-tank missiles.
- Artillery guns.
- Air defence systems.
- Armoured fighting vehicles.
- Anti-structure munitions.
- Three M270 long-range multiple launch rocket systems.
- 14 Challenger II main battle tanks (announced in January 2023).
- Storm Shadow missiles (long-range precision strike capability) – announced in May 2023.
- Long-range attack drones.
- The UK became the first country to provide Ukraine with missiles with a range sufficient to strike targets anywhere in the country.
Non-lethal Aid:
- Over 200,000 items which include:
- Unmanned aerial systems.
- Body armour.
- Helmets.
- Night vision equipment.
- Mine detection equipment.
- Medical equipment.
- Winter clothing.
- Three retired Sea King search and rescue helicopters (first one delivered in November 2022).
- Over 200,000 items which include:
Training Initiatives:
- Established a long-term training programme for the Ukrainian armed forces named “Operation Interflex” with the objective of training 30,000 new and existing Ukrainian soldiers by the end of 2023.
- In February 2023, expanded training to include Ukrainian fast jet pilots and marines. An elementary flying course for Ukrainian pilots is scheduled to start in summer 2023.
Major Support Package (July 2023):
- More than 70 combat and logistics vehicles.
- Thousands of additional rounds of Challenger II munitions.
- A support package for equipment repair worth £50 million which includes spare parts, technical support, and maintenance training.
- Leadership in a project to establish a new military rehabilitation centre in Ukraine to support the rehabilitation, recovery, and return of injured Ukrainian soldiers.
Historically, UK’s support for Ukraine has deep roots. Following Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 2014, the UK stepped up bilateral military assistance to Ukraine, primarily in the form of non-lethal military equipment. 2015 saw the launch of Operation Orbital, focusing on training and advisory roles for the Ukrainian forces.
In another vital step, during the NATO summit in July 2023, the UK announced the provision of more than 70 combat and logistics vehicles to Ukraine. Along with this, the UK will also spearhead a project to inaugurate a new military rehabilitation centre in Ukraine, dedicated to aiding Ukrainian soldiers injured in combat.
So if Trump becomes president again, will we carry on if he implement his promise to withdraw U.S. support for Ukraine? How come the Republicans back a friend of Putin?
I think the chances of that happening are slim at this point. During primary season (when the republican nominee is decided), the candidates are all trying to out-MAGA each other in order to procure the lunatic vote. For example, during the first debate, they all raised their hands when asked if they would support Trump for the highest office in the land if he were a convicted felon. They had similar support for the denial of climate change with the nutbag Ramaswamy saying more people had died fighting climate change than had died from climate change. These are full-out lunatic positions that should disqualify anyone from higher office. Yet one of them will be the Republican nominee. Good luck.
I’ll just add that recent polling suggests a clear majority of Americans view both the charges relating to overturning the election and climate change as serious issues.
Ramaswamy has been clear that he sees kaputins war in Ukraine as a European problem for Europe to solve. Post truth nonsense that denies USA commercial interests never mind shared values and the strategic threat from the CCP. So full marks for speaking his mind and making the narrow isolationist view inside apparent to potential voters.
Obvious history echoes to the WW2 time when US ignorance and isolationism suggested that Hitler was misunderstood and not a threat to USA!
Fortunately it’s quite unlikely, he is polling very badly and will likely be barred under the 14th amendment from actually standing, at least in states that are willing to abide by the actual law and it would not take many states kicking him of the ballot to win an election even if he was actually popular.
It is the rest of the nut jobs in the Republican Party that worry me as well as the fringe nut jobs in the Democratic Party.
Please explain “barred under the 14th amendment from actually standing, (at least in states that are willing to abide by the actual law)” for those of us not versed in constitutional law?
rough explanation is If convicted of treason and trying to overturn the government it means you cant stand for said government
14th amendment prevents anyone who commits insurrection or rebellion or provides aid or comfort to anyone involved in insurrection or rebellion from holding key federal and state office. Each US state has a separate slate for presidential candidates and in some instances a candidate won’t appear in every state. Trump should be automatically barred but it will be up to each Secretary of State in every state to decide. You only need to loose a few states and not be on the ballot of a few states to loose a presidential election even if your a popular candidate. A conviction is not required to establish the use of the 14th amendment.
Do you think that might risk violence anyway if implemented? Among Trump supporters who feel (and whom Trump will no doubt tell) that the election has been fixed? Just to say I don’t think that; Trump lost and couldn’t handle being a loser but still…
Nah, I think Trump supporters are largely bluster, I don’t see anyone else doing time in federal prison to support him.
Thanks for your insight and @Brom too.
So 91 charges, mostly related to insurrection, should be sufficient evidence of that intent for #14 to apply.
I’d say all charges demonstrate not being a fit and proper person to hold public office. Competence matters.
Trump seems to be perfectly prepared to risk dragging the US into a civil war to gain & maintain power. I think Republicans desperately need an “Emperor’s new clothes” epiphany.
Ok sure but he was neck and neck with sleepy joe?! Hmmm BS
It was a bit revealing that he did an interview with Tucker Carlson a known orc sympathiser! Now IF he did withdraw support it would obviously disrupt the NATO efforts,IF that did happen what are the odds of Poland saying sod this for a game of soldiers and wading in to finish the war quickly?
Bolder action earlier may have stopped Russia from invading in the first place. All I see in Biden is weak naivety & Trump, a fifth columnist crook who should never have been allowed anywhere near power. Not that leadership this side of the Atlantic is anything to be proud of.
“Bolder action earlier may have stopped Russia from invading in the first place”
I agree.
We should have been doing some joint exercises.
If Mad Vlad had known how good NLAWs was then he probably would never have bothered with his three day special operation parade to Kiev.
But it is the element of surprise that is gained from the uselessness of the Russian kit and the excellence of the NATO kit. As well as the fact that the UK actually turned out to have a decent stockpile (certainly compared to the size of our army) of most of the relevant stuff like M270, NLAWS, 155mm etc etc.
European NATO actually manufactures much more of what Ukraine needs I.e artillery shells and ground combat vehicles and SAM systems.
If the US pulls out it can be replaced, US support at $30 billion is welcome but can realistically can be replaced as it’s small money. Even if just the UK wanted to do $30 billion a year for Ukraine is very easily doable much less the rest of the western alliance. The UK government budget is 60 times a year more than that and we managed to borrow that kind of money every month during COVID.
Not saying it would be easy to replace the US but a coalition of the willing primarily based on countries like the UK and our JEF partners could fill the void with a little effort in the bigger scheme of things.
Up to mid July it was actually closer to $77b that the US has contributed to Ukr.
“European NATO actually manufactures much more of what Ukraine needs I.e artillery shells and ground combat vehicles and SAM systems.”
Be interesting to see how fast things ramp up.
The commercials are certainly there for more production lines.
UK has invested in much more ammunition production capability – when it comes online isn’t that clear.
If Trump became President again and stopped support for Ukraine, there is no reason at all why we would do the same – I would be ashamed of my country if we did stop.
I agree entirely. Just gobsmacked that anyone would propose surrendering UKR to Russia & splitting NATO.
Europe will not allow Ukraine to fall- that why they need to do more NOW to defeat the evil empire before the US elections in 2024.
I agree. Perhaps the UK should send more Chally tanks and some Warriors (especially given that our Govt want to scrap Warriors rather than update them).
The problem is we can provide a 10th of what USA can provide.
We have no strategic reserves / war stocks and our stocks piles are low.
The idea of Putin gaining anything is awful.
…and you can be sure he will do whatever he can to try and manipulate thr US elections in Trumps favour.
Indeed he will – it is his *only* hope as China hasn’t been his saviour……
Xi – like everyone else – has been amazed by the awful Russian performance.
Xi has the same corruption problem Russia has if not worse, the Chinese army runs its own business empire of state enterprises completely un related to the military. It even has its own farms.
Xi will be wondering just how much if the force he thinks he has paid for actually works.
All that dodgy Russia equipment he spend billions on will also be saying in him like S400 and Su35.
I agree the Xi, unfortunately, understands that all the Russian kit can be overcome by NATO.
What is likely to bite Chinese forces more is the corner cutting on quality – the mentality it looks the same so it does the same us great until you test something in combat.
The US no longer has excess strategic stockpiles either which is why they are dishing out cluster munitions.
The US is not a very big hitter in new production of items like 155mm shells. That falls to South Korea and the Czech Republic as well as other sources such as Pakistan that produce Soviet Artillery. All that’s required is the cash and the contacts and the UK and EU can easily do that on their own especially with other rich friends like Japan and Australia.
Even the UK contribution as large as it is compared to others is a small foot note in treasury accounts, it’s around 0.25% of UK government spending. We are spending more on Euston train station renovation than the entire contribution to Ukraine so far.
It would be a massive blow if US stopped shipping military aid to Ukraine, but we in Europe should still continue (and up the rate including F-16s etc) even if that means less stuff gets to Ukraine.
I am sure UK could send more Chally 2s (as only 148 (for CR3) are needed in future), quite a few Warriors (as the Government wants to scrap them rather than upgrade) and more CVR(T)s.
The U.K. needs to make new stuff to send to Ukraine or to replace current kit sent. How useful would it be sending 100 odd CVRTs every month even if they need re built or built new. Supacat and other firms could supply more if actually funded.
The UK has really stepped up though. 4.6 (billion pounds in strictly military aid) x 1.26 ($ exchange rate) x 5 (US population factor), and the UK would have committed roughly $29 billion if the countries were the same size (compared to the US commitment of $43 billion). That puts the UK contribution per capita at roughly (29/43) 67 cents for every American dollar gifted in military aid. All that along with all the training and then being the country that displays the least hesitation in gifting new weapon types. I’d say the US really couldn’t ask for much more from an ally.
I agree
Agreed, good analysis
I think the UK would easily be willing to double or triple its contributions in that event, I think most other western alliance countries would feel the same.
As it stands it is a rounding error.
At 2-3x something else has to be cut to create headroom.
Their argument is that the vast sums of money being sent to Ukraine should be spent on Americans struggling to get by in US. I am concerned that the Democrats are half asleep (much like Biden seemingly) going into this election and are taking a win somewhat for granted. Oddschecker currently has Biden to win at 2.75 to 1 and Trump at 3.75 to 1. Too close for comfort.
The USA needs to stop pricing stuff it sends at such HUGE amounts. The actual value is much less. The way they work out the costs gives a really bad impression to the home audience for the sake of looking like a big amounts.
Things that were going to be scrapped/decommissioned should not be priced as new and should have the decommissioning cost taken off the price.
Fully agree. Split valuation is industry standard to differentiate New from Used so different value and obviously service life too. Bringing in the cost to scrap, what with environmental responsibility and dangerous goods, makes sense as you don’t just take Storm Shadow to the municipal dump to dispose of time expired units.
Fundamentally DoD needs to explain that acquisition cost is not the same as present value though it may be more understandable to the hard of thinking as the pawn broker value..
Much of it has a negative value, sending it to Ukraine saves on disposal costs.
To say vast sums is a total lie, it’s a tiny amount of money and most of the headline figure is theoretical cost if old equipment due to be scrapped.
If americas w at to look at vast sums it’s the $880 billion a year they spend that gets them defence contractors only interested in lining their pockets abs boon doggies like Zumwalt, LCS, Ford class, B2, F22, Sea Wold etc.
That’s not what he said is it? To quote from Snopes: EW: Fox asked Trump what he’d do differently on Ukraine: “Well what I would do, we have tremendous military capability and what we can do without 44-year-old jets, what we can do is enormous, and we should be doing it and helping them to survive & they’re doing an amazing job.” He then referenced that he authorised Javelins. He’s also said that he have a negotiated peace in 24 hours. TDS in action as usual.
Such eloquence! Inspirational at a Churchillian level. How bad does the opposition have to be to get this man re-elected? I can still barely believe he beat Clinton.
Reagan was called The Great Communicator. Can’t the Republicans rustle up another actor from somewhere? I don’t know. Rob Lowe for President maybe? Sarah Michelle Gellar is a Republican and we could certainly do with a Vampire Slayer thwarting Vlad.
Oh well, I’m not American, so I suppose I should just keep my nose of of it.
If a party can’t find a sensible, mature, adult to lead them they’re heading for disaster. Let alone the “leader of the free world”.
I tend to subscribe to the theory that Trump’s anti-Ukraine rhetoric is just domestic politics (i.e. it’s anti Biden) But in the remote event that he does win the 2024 election, he is very unlikely to actually change the course.
His supporters seem quite happy to swallow any about turn, and if he were to dump Ukraine he will make a huge number of enemies in his own Defense establishment, from the CIA to the Pentagon to the Defence Industry, the latter of which we all know has considerable political sway.
I’m not sure even Trump is quite that stupid. But his position is pretty unhelpful in the meantime. Unless of course, the goal is to string Putin along with false hopes, while he slowly bleeds his country into oblivion.
Whether that’s intentional or not (and I hate to give Trump that credit) it will be the outcome.
Surely not, as we all know the UK is just a small island that no one listens to anymore 😀
Clearly all efforts in Ukraine have been lead from the back by the Biden administration that has shown staunch “leadership” by agreeing to provide equipment and support to Ukraine about 6 weeks after the UK does and 4 weeks after the rest of Europe.
Efforts in Ukraine have shown the UK Geo political muscle, not by being the biggest but by having the most will to commit and a world wide network of very powerful friends along with first class intelligence, training, special forces and no doubt a lot of back room science and engineering coming up with some pretty innovative solutions heath Robinson style.
Continuing to ramp up support for US lead efforts in the pacific and in turn keeping the US, Japan, Australia and New Zealand engaged in European affairs is a pretty smart Geo strategic move by the UK despite the commentators constantly referring to the UK as America’s puppet.
The broad political support from all major political parties in the UK is a stark contrast from the cheap political stunts currently being pulled by the Republican Party in the US as well where the front runner is currently promising to cut all funding to Ukraine on day one.
Ukraine has shown Britain at its best.
Agree Jim. Well said.
For me the only issue isn’t the fact we’ve given so far £4-5 billion in practical aid but that this equipment, munitions and stores have come from UK stocks. Which I would like to see replaced with some urgency.
HMG blithering along in apparent snail pace isn’t good enough.
Every single bullet, missile, mortar round, artillery round, set of body armour, helmets. Night vision goggles, vehicle armoured and unarmoured should be replaced. If budget for that is coming out of our foreign side budget so be it.
We shouldn’t be running down stockpiles instead we should have rebuilt them by now and gone further. I’d like to know if a major war broke out that the UK could arm and equip a few hundred thousand new recruits into our armed forces. You can only do that if you have stockpiles and don’t retire or scrap equipment that is still viable or able to be upgraded.
The war in Ukraine has had one positive outcome and Putin has to be thanked for this, it has given the Western democracies the much needed wake up call and apart from the UK, has meant re armament and investment in the defence industrial base which was very much needed.
In fact I’d go so far as saying Putin’s war in Ukraine has better prepared NATO to face the main axis of threat which is President Xi and the Chinese CCP.
The Chinese must be really annoyed as their massive investments into their armed forces are now matched by nations bordering China and an alliance of the willing which the USA, Australia, Japan and South Korea are forming now. Containment in the western Pacific is a reality. China has only 2 options attack Taiwan and go on a rampage to try to carve out an empire. Which is the high risk option with a very real risk of military defeat and massive loss of life or look North to Russia’s eastern territories rich in resources, sparsely populated.
Heck lake Baikal could supply all of China’s freshwater requirements for the next few hundred years alone. China is very short of freshwater. Whilst the vast expanse of eastern Russia has rich mineral deposits, oil and gas fields as well as plentiful land for crops, agriculture and huge expanses of forest. All of which I’m sure China would love to get it’s hands on.
Can you imagine the delicious irony if China starts making territorial demands on Russia?
Of course, one of the reasons we were able to supply Ukr so quickly with munitions in such numbers, might actually be, that we had reasonably large stockpiles to begin with! Certainly when compared to the rest of the coalition efforts. Nobody will match what the US can provide, but we certainly got things moving by providing large quantities from the outset.
Clearly we will have diminished our stocks somewhat, but it might well be somewhat premature to allude to the fact that we are on the bones of our backsides ref remaining stockpiles.
I would imagine that we have enough left to equip ourselves should push come to shove and NATO got involved.
Last year’s £2.3 billion uplift was all for replenishment of munition stocks of various sorts, so I imagine that we aren’t in such a perilous state just yet. Just my take on things like.
Quite. Compared to many others, we are never in as bad a situation as the moan at everything Brigade think.
Agree, it’s also worth noting that if we run out and top up our own stocks overnight we crowd out the production going to Ukraine. Every Russian tank taken out in Ukraine is one less for us to need ammunition for later.
True
I think Gavin Williamson started the ball rolling with a build up of spare parts and ammunition etc (or at leist got more funds push towards it)
That’s why the government gave the MOD an additional 5Bn to replenish stocks.
Massive casualties mean little to either the CCP or Putin. Life is cheap there to those who rule.
Yes but when your demographics are so hideously bad it will mean a lot in future. Russia will cease to exist soon and China may go the same way. It won’t be in the biggest 5 countries in the world by centuries end.
If I understand correctly, UK leadership has created friction with the Biden administration as evident from the non support for the NATO secretary general role for Ben Wallace. The concept of escalation does require evaluation but it’s clear that Chairman Xi will not allow kaputin to get MAD so he only has the crumbling orc armed forces to deploy. This delay over concerns about escalation is wrong and only a clear non-NATO response is justified. Other than that we should all be ‘all in’.
Really uncertain whether US has not utilized the UK as a stalking horse during this conflict, essentially operating as a hand in glove operation for potentially escalatory actions. 🤔
I really wish they were that Machiavellian however I’m not sure sleepy Joe is that sharp 😀
Maybe the deep state.
🤣😂😁🤔😳😱☹️
Interesting idea, the ole Plausible Deniability standard. Arguably the North Korean dictator provides similar to the ChiComs to threaten the surrounding rational democracies.
The experienced and respected Ben Wallace may still have a shot at NATO SG when Jens gets to step down. Ben has declined further UK government responsibility so may feel like trying again after some time off and recovery..
Unclear what the probable change of UK government will mean for that as there’s only one UK candidate for NATO SG.
Exactly, when some pattern happens once or even twice it may be attributed to random chance, but when the pattern continues to recur, not so much (e.g., GMLRS, MBTs, F-16s, etc.)… Mad Vlad and the Orcs must certainly realize that they are being played, but also understand they have been out finessed. My concern is that a self-styled ‘heir of Peter the Great’ may have a true red line; suspect that it may be control of Crimea. If that threshold is crossed, life may become extremely sporting in Eastern Europe…🤔😳
Re a second pass at Big Ben becoming NATO SG, must admit that it is an intriguing idea that had not occurred to me. 🤔 Believe that you Brits may well be in a better position to handicap the backroom political maneuvering re NATO and EU leadership, if for no other reason than proximity.
What is that ancient Chinese curse (may you live during interesting times)? 😳😱
Given the astute AFU demonstrations that they can attack bridges, ports, ships and bases in Crimes, I anticipate a goodwill gesture by the orcs due to their realization that they cannot supply and sustain their forces. The Tokmak axis of AFU advance to the Azov Sea will be their end in Crimea.
Honestly I have no evidence that Ben Wallace plans to try again on NATO SG just a concern that an ex EU leader with a dismal record as Defence Minister of Germany would be how to weaken NATO and embolden kaputin being the opposite of what will keep Europe safe.
Near or far, we must work together against that..
Obama often practised leadership from the back – clearly that’s where Biden got the idea from.
US tanks have still not arrived in UKR – they are at least 6 months behind UK in that regard. European nations are leading in terms of F-16 provision.
Obama leadership came on the back 9 of the golf course maybe,
Not a lot going on with him and I seem to remember him changing his mind very quickly about military action in Syria after the UK parliament voted to stay out of military action.
Yes, plenty of nay-sayers love to consider that the UK is totally unimportant to the US, that we are their ‘poodle’, that we take our lead from the US, that we long to have the Special Relationship recognised and trumpetted etc etc.
I agree – very revealing that Obama canned his response to Assad’s use of WMD against his own people (Red Line duly and clearly crossed) when he realised that the Brits would not be alongside due to the Commons vote not going Cameron’s way.
Up the Brits!! 🇦🇺 🇬🇧 🇳🇿
And every other country contributing to the Ukrainian war effort.
A video clip of Russians fleeing from Tokmak which exemplifies everything about the Russian Military
Who’s the child? Took it to ensure a safe passage letting the Ukrainian drones see the poor kid, until they broke down? Fuck me what absolute dross!
Farouk,
Any update on CR2 performance in Robotyne area and beyond? Have not received any updates for several days. Thanks.
Pretty safe to say that if any CR2’s had been knocked out the Russians would have broadcast the footage from multiple angles claiming that every CR2 sent to Ukraine had been destroyed 3 times over.
Absolutely concur w/ your assessment. Good fortune and good hunting to the tank crews.
I don’t know what is going on. Is the child there’s? Unlikely. Did they steal it to sell? Ensure safe passage? Child abusers? I’m almost speechless
Seems they nicked the car with the child in it🤬 Mercedes’ apparently shut the car down and they left the child there!
Got that off Denys,s telegram channel so hopefully true🤞
What a bunch of monsters. I hope the Ukrainians can get to the child in time.
Is that another Ukrainian child being abducted and taken into a life of servitude in “Mother Russia”?
seems to be the case to me.
At the risk of echoing the orange one (inmate!) the fallacy of the peace dividend, aka ignore strategy threats, has been revealed so that the investment debt of Europe has been made apparent to even the stupidest politicians. Whilst former UK governments have squandered national wealth on end of life industrial support, other nations have invested in industrial success but not defence. So this is an important pivot point to rebalance the economy and defence across the Atlantic and across Europe where both USA and UK have been carrying Europe.
Slava Ukraine, Slava Heroyim
#StandWithUkraine
I’d just like to reiterate that the ‘aid’ given by the Americans is a form of lend lease that the Ukrainians and their children and grandchildren will be paying for for decades to come just as we did after WWII. Obviously the Ukrainians would prefer that to the alternative but the Yanks are making shitloads of profit on tis war
Other NATO countries are donating without the expectation that it will have to be paid for in the future.
That would be a complete and utter lie.
Ah he is back with his nuggets of priceless info…..
really?
https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3025302/biden-signs-lend-lease-act-to-supply-more-security-assistance-to-ukraine/
Very interesting article. Presume there are breakdown charts available somewhere delineating which equipment is Lend-Lease vs. donation. Believe USAF F-16s will probably have a Lend-Lease designation. 🤔
Back to bed little boy!
So instead of just stating such statement how about you explain Why the above comment is incorrect.
I will help: not all items the USA sends are lend/lease. Some items are donations. Fortunately the USA publishes what they send.
The Americans are very good at looking after America. We are missing a trick!
if ever there was a statement that would pass every fact check that’s it 😀
The warmongers and neocons are strong in this thread.
Righto give us a solution to the war that the Orcs will understand then!
Looks like it’s territory for peace to any rational person. Putin wants a buffer zone. Unless we do really want to smash the Russians using the Ukrainian population as an anvil. If we want to stop more Russian aggression I suggest we get Germany off Russian gas and get the rest of NATO members to do a “Poland”. In the meantime perhaps the UK can look at its paltry army, bare bones air force, and bloated DEI obsessed MOD.
Sorry that’s not ‘rational’ at all! IF the Ukrainians give him an inch of ground he will be back later for more as the precedent will have been set! Take land talk,take more land talk and who’s to say he will stop there? It’s not up to us anyway but what you suggest is just not going to happen it’s just appeasement and we know where that gets us🙄
Exactly. Territory for Peace. The Russians give up the illegally taken territory they took last year and return to 2014 borders. They still get to keep the bit of Donbas and The Crimea they took in 2014.
Well you just said it didn’t you Donbas and Crimea they TOOK in 2014 so that was illegal as well! Who would police a ‘buffer’ zone? Pootin would just say it’s part of Russia and then want another ‘ buffer’ zone further on! Sorry chaps but your talking out of your arse to even think of such a deal.
I said pull back to the 2021 borders.
Both sides would have to give up territory for a negotiated peace.
The Russians can’t keep the land bridge they grabbed this time. The Ukraine accepts Crimea and the breakaway republic as being lost as they have been since 2014.
People are currently calling for Ukraine to accept that they have lost what was stolen last year. That won’t happen.
Other people are calling for the unconditional withdrawal of Russia from all of Ukraine , including Crimea – that won’t happen.
If Ukraine won’t accept anything other than total withdrawal and Russia won’t accept anything other than not withdrawing one inch from what they currently hold – then this is not going to stop – probably forever.
Also – if Putin tonight declared “The Special Military Operation is over and our troops are pulling back to the 2021 border” and did it.
It would be a massive ask for the world to carry on supporting Ukraine in their fight to reclaim the breakaway republics and The Crimea.
No mate in your original post you did say 2014, there is no way that theOrcs can be allowed to say ok let’s stop here and let us keep where we are! Exactly what territory are they giving up? As to your buffer zone is that because Ukraine were intent on invading Russia as you are probably aware no such thing was going to happen,is it in case Ukraine joins NATO if it is then Russia should be asking for a zone from the Baltic Sea all the way down to the Black Sea. You give one inch to this madman and Ukraine will never be able to rest!
I never mentioned a buffer zone.
I was replying to original poster who implied Ukraine had to give up what it’s currently lost – I said “yes, give up territory is what is needed – for the Russians to give up territory and retreat to 2014 lines – you jumped on me and went on about me wanting a buffer zone. I never said that.
2014 and 2021 borders are the same aren’t they ?
If you think that the total destruction of Russia is the only way out of this and Ukraine will not accept anything less than regaining the whole of Ikraine including The Crimea , then this will never end.
Apologies it was Liam who said about the buffer zone but if you think I jumped all over you having a discussion then your sensitivities are indeed high. Donbass,Crimea are part of a sovereign state invaded by another,as far as I’m aware no other country recognises them as anything other than part of Ukraine. Thankfully its not our country that’s been invaded and we have no right to try and impose anything on Ukraine it’s their decision to fight or not. Have a nice day👍
You said “I was taking out of my arse” – but Hey Ho , that’s normal discussion apparently.
There is no way I want Russia to keep any of the land grabbed in 2022 and 2023.
But.
If there is to be a negotiated peace, then both sides will have to give up territory.
Russia would have to give up what it grabbed in 2023/2023. Ukraine would have to accept it has lost what it lost in 2014.
Without that happening then forget about a negotiated peace as it can only end in the total defeat of one or the other.
I am pretty sure the world would breathe a huge sigh of relief if the Russians pulled out of the areas it occupied last year. It would be a defeat for Russia and a victory for Ukraine.
Hoping for the recapture of Crimea and Donetsk and Luhansk might be “a bridge too far” for Ukraine.
Why exactly would the Ukrainians want to abandon their fellow citizens living in these buffer zone to the “tender” mercies of the russians. After all they found what had been done in the areas they liberated? Plus what’s rational about rewarding a ravening beast, do you think it’s not going to come back for more after it licks it’s wounds?
Putin doesn’t like the country you’re in so I was thinking we give him you and your families properties so that hopefully he leaves the rest us alone🙈
That just rewards the real proven warmonger Putin.
“Give Putin what he wants! It worked in 1938!”