The UK Government has disposed of a total of 1044 military vehicles and 48 aircraft through various methods since February 24, 2022.
A total of ground 1044 vehicles were sold or auctioned, 667 were scrapped, and 48 aircraft were sold to various contractors and governments.
The following vehicles have been disposed of via sale/auction and scrap since 24 February 2022. The list includes a variety of vehicles, from Bulldog armored vehicles (74 sold) to Logic All-Terrain Vehicle Trailers (163 sold).
Notably, 80 Huskies were sold, specifically to the Government of Ghana, as part of government-to-government sales. The ‘White Fleet & Miscellaneous’ category, which includes vehicles with unclear descriptions, saw 496 units being disposed of.
The following fixed-wing aircraft have been disposed of via sale/auction and scrap since 24 February 2022.
This list includes 3 BAE 146 aircraft sold to PionAir, 10 Harriers sold to Fly Harrier Ltd, and 19 Tucanos sold to RSW Aviation LLC.
Look at the aircraft list
10 Harrier
1 Phantom!
1 Jag!
I thought I was seeing things there.
I’m assuming the Harrier(s) were the ones at Culdrose used for ground handling training?
The other two relics could be gate guardians? Or were they retained for some odd testing role?
Yes I think the harriers were the ones for. ground handling school, fly harrier limited had previously purchased 2 of these around 4 is years ago with a plan to get them airworthy..I’m assuming the further 10 airframes will go into the parts pool to help make this happen.
as for the phantom and the Jaguar…I would love to know what’s happening with these..I assume they are going to some museum somewhere, which is nice.
But where did the Phantom and Jag come from?
Were they down the back of a hangar or were they retained for T&E?
Oooh how I would like to know……if we see a civil aviation request to register them them we will know they were probably retained for T&E and can be returned to an airworthy state, if not then they were just rotten old gate guards…going to be painted up and put in a museum.
I doubt it would be that secret given their antiquity!
Submit an FOI as to where they came from or persuade George to email the MOD press office!
FOI sent, I will let you know the outcome.
the MOD and government fail to acknowledge that th were responsible for the wholesale loss of the type 22 class which are still in use today
Cosford was full of Jags, including war spares. The Jags were used for technical training. There was one used for battle damage repair training. I guess after so many years, it has had so many repairs on it, that it’s no longer viable as a training aid. That would be my guess.
Sorry DB, just seen you’d suggested this. I thought same.
I know there was a Jag out on the Tarmac at Gib when I was there a few years back.
Gib for Christmas ? Nice.
I think it used to be the gate guardian on city side of the runway road!
There was a Phantom gate guardian at MPA (FI) for many years – maybe it was that one?
Cosford? No 1 S of TT? They had dozens and dozens of jags at one time.
Cosford I think, used for training techs. Replaced with more modern aircraft, tranche 1 eurofights.
A while back at RAF Leuchars there used to be a gloss black painted Phantom. That was kept in its own shed. No idea what happened to it.
The Jaguar I saw was being used as an enemy Bomber during training. It was painted in army green / grey cammo last year at least.
tornado too
my son was on the Trafalgar submarine Torbay when it was retired the crew, the dockyards, and the MOD KNEW ALL OF THE Class had their issues but Torbay had years of service left in her.wd retire our ships too early sell or give our equipment away for no good reason and then complain that bwe don’t have enough of what we’ve lost. an embarrassing mess.
Personally I would like to see reassurance that this money is put back into defence. The cynical side of me says “probably not”. As an interested outsider I would be very interested if anyone knows about possible outcomes. E.g, are they required to keep it within MOD in any way?
Its sold by the MOD so all finances are handled internally.
Thank You harryb
I doubt it will be that straight forward. The treasury will have a say in it. Likely they gain at one end and the treasury then cut their budget at the other to compensate.
Funny how it’s always more out than in. The Husky’s and Mastives should not be disposed of as the likelihood of British troops back on Middle East soil is still a possibility. Do we really want to deploy Boxer and Ajax on daily duties when the former are still good workhorses at a fraction of the price?
Plus neither of them are in service and wont be for a fair few years yet. The whole middle east is currently a powder keg ready to blow, and getting significantly closer in recent months.
I think we should put a halt to anything being scrapped or sold for next few years.
If things kick off with Russia or China even old warrior turrets might come in handy.
👍Sadly it seems all about what makes the world go round….
Think it’s strange the Bulldog and CVRTs weren’t given to Ukraine.
They should have been retained for reserve forces use. NOT given away to the people who inflicted soviet communism on the world!!
Grrr what a waste. The Yeomanry would take your arm off to get their hands on them.
Say again ?
It seems quite self explanatory. Which part of my comment are you having difficulty understanding Frank?
All of it…
Reserve light cavalry units QOY for example, are currently using Jackal. Open top vehicles. (See top attack drone footage from Ukraine.)
To fully understand the very influential role played by Ukraine in the founding and nature of the USSR.
The Declaration and Treaty on the Formation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics officially created the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR), commonly known as the Soviet Union. It de jure legalised a political union of several Soviet republics that had existed since 1919 and created a new federal government whose key functions were centralised in Moscow. Its legislative branch consisted of the Congress of Soviets of the Soviet Union and the Central Executive Committee of the Soviet Union (TsIK), while the Council of People’s Commissars composed the executive.
The Treaty, along with the Declaration of the Creation of the USSR was approved on 30 December 1922 by a conference of delegations from the Russian SFSR, the Transcaucasian SFSR, the Ukrainian SSR and the Byelorussian SSR. The Treaty and the Declaration were confirmed by the First All-Union Congress of Soviets and signed by heads of delegations – Mikhail Kalinin, Mikhail Tskhakaya, and Grigory Petrovsky, Alexander Chervyakov respectively on December 30, 1922. The treaty provided flexibility to admit new members. Therefore, by 1940 the Soviet Union grew from the founding four (or six, depending on whether 1922 or 1940 definitions are applied) republics to 15 republics.
The first four being known as “privileged founding members.” They could leave the union at any time, if they chose. Subsequent members could not.
You should also know what role the ruthless Ukrainian VCHEKA (Later GPU/NKVD/KGB etc) played in the USSR and Warsaw Pact before passing judgement on that country. As many of them are now oligarchs or in their employ. Verifiable facts.
Some AR L Cav Regs gave up CVRTs for Jackal. Some might still use LRs. So could not see them being given ex regular CVRT. The AR have never to my knowledge operated Bulldogs either.
QOY used to operate Fox CRV(W) with it’s Raden. Along with Sultan, Samaritan, 432 and Warrior at various times. Scimitar and Bulldog would pose no problem for them. Jackals are not popular because of the open top. Having seen the top attacks by drones in Ukraine, I appreciate their concerns. But each to their own “Danielle.”
Why can’t they have both?
If the reserve reconnaissance LCAV had the flexibility of using CVR(T) depending on the situation. Then Having both wheeled and tracked options would be rather useful. Deploying wheeled with Boxer units and CVR(T) with tracked.
In addition to the potential to expand in times of war such equipment would permit. Recruiting or conscripting to deploy both. Adding to the nations reserve.
Indeed they did, going back a bit that. Was one of my fav vehicles the Fox, at the time I was getting interested in all things military.
Why the “Danielle” George?
It’s one L in my name BTW, I’m not a girl. 🙄😏
Typo due to old eyes. I’m chalking that up as a senior moment. It’s a handy excuse. You can call me ‘Georgina” but only once!
On the Fox, I’ve driven them but not enough to claim real knowledge. It’s a bit of an acquired skill due to the vehicle being seriously top heavy and capable of surprising speed. Rolling one can spoil the day for the crew. I’ve seen that too. Not nice.
😆👍 No worries George.
Where the heck did you see me “Passing Judgement” ?…. Mate, Seriously, we are not at War on here, just players, playing…. Lighten up, I’m not your enemy…. I happen to agree with most of your comments, It was just your one little post that i didn’t really understand… (I’m no expert on the history or politics of Russia or Ukraine…. although I do understand much that has gone on over the last century) …. Let’s just move on here …. Yes ?
Agreed Frank, brothers in arms. Always.
👌
As someone who served 6 1/2 yrs in the TA give them to Ukraine!! They are in the forefront of fighting for good against evil on earth today; Only Israel can truly claim to stand beside them.
I agree about Israel they are truly on the frontline against unthinkable evil. But not the corrupt, former soviet founding, oligarch controlled Ukrainians.
The censors on here do not like facing up to that historical fact. So it’s best to discus such things on Rumble.
George wrote|:
Whilst there is some truth regards corruption in the Ukraine, it helps to step back and realise it is a legacy of the communist system and such graft can be found in all the former states of the USSR, including current members of the EU. As well as China, Venezuela, North Korea and Cuba. The interesting thing regards the EU is it kind of overlooked corruption in Rumania and Bulgaria in which to allow them to join, learning from this, they have clamped down on future applicants. Which is why the Ukraine has clamped down on corruption especially the current regime. I quote from last Sept from the FT:
Also and a big also a lot of the corruption cited by those with an axe to grind, is from the stewardship of pro-Russian Viktor Yanukovych the president of the Ukraine from the 25th of Feb 2010 till the 22nd of Feb 2014 and who was PM from 2002 to 2007 (with a gap of around 14 months from Jan 2005) with the gaps in between (Including from 2007 to 2010 as deputy PM.
Under Zelenskyy the Ukraine of today is not the Ukraine of yesteryear where corruption was the name of the game.
quite frankly o don’t really care that much about corruption in Ukraine, what I do care about is the geostrategic security of Europe and if Ukraine falls to Russia. It’s like a knife sliding into Europes guts..with a general war in Europe almost guaranteed..basically if Ukraine crumbles Russia will be able to exert influence and move nations into its sphere right up to the ionian Sea and that will completely interpenetrate Russia. Sphere and Nato sphere nations…including that snake pit of potential violence the Balkans…
geopolitically it will also indicate to china that the west is weak and Indecisive…china is eyeing up the west for a World war and the fall of UKRAINE would make it more likely
So all in all the fall of Ukraine would probably indicate the soon to be western power Sino Russian power world war….
so do I give two shits that Ukraine is a bit on the corrupt side no I don’t…give them everything they need.
I only care about the fact that Ukraine is recognised as a sovereign country by UN and various treaties signed by Russia.
Russia invaded a sovereign country.
Putin has made it very clear that he wants to extend the Russian empire…..
So I am all in favour of helping a sovereign state defend itself from a marauding state breaking international law.
Sure Russia has maxed out on war crimes too on the way. Which hardens my resolve.
I’m a wee bit more cynical to be honest…I’m more of an enlighten self interest sort…
The driving factor should be first…if it helps secure the security of our nation and it does not cross any major moral lines then help away ( which is why I’m perfectly happy with the UK selling stuff to the Saudis as long as they are regional allies and suppport the west)…so even if Ukraine had a slightly iffy government if it was aligned with the west that’s fine. If it’s paramount to our security then we should throw the kitchen sink at it and hold our nose if we have to.
If it’s not driven by enlighten self interest ( as in that nation is irrelevant to our security) I’m all up for helping a nation that was invaded by an aggressor..as long as it does not significantly impact on our nations security and its a fellow democracy.
so in regards to Ukraine even if it was not a major security issue I would support offering help ( it’s a democracy that was invaded by a dictatorship)…but as it’s a major security risk we should be throwing the kitchen sink at it…a little bit of corruption can be found in any democracy ( Christ look at the US) and is irrelevant.
I agree, it not like a cirrupt Ukraine will be les corrupt under Russian rule either, in fact its probably the best way to ensure it remain corrupt is to give up on it.
If Ukraine falls its a clear signal that we don’t fight for what we beleive in and if put under miltary presurre may well ceed teritory to appease the aggressor.
I cant understand this blaming Ukraine for the past. It was the Soviet Russians all along. Ukraine has been two social systems. The Russian colonialists and the Ukrainian underclass.
Valid points but the Ukrainians fought for both the red and white forces in the war that spawned the USSR. How can we separate them. Ironically, the very name Russia originated from the Viking Kiev-Rus. So who colonised who depends how far back in history one chooses to delve. It’s a complex nightmare that makes the former Yugoslavia debacle simple by comparison. There are other ethnic groups in the mix too. What do you know about the Rusyns and there status as truly down trodden or the poor Romany. Read the Amnesty International reports about both.
Living history matters the most. When a large section of Ukrainians took up arms for the Nazis, against the allies. Including the evil USSR. So fascist devils or communist devils, take your pick. I prefer to treat them both as equally unworthy of our support. That is my choice having learned first hand the role Ukrainians played in the Cold War.
You could level those types acsusations at a number of countries globally, but a past does’t tell us the future.
And what good does a Ukraine under currupt Russia control do? Ziltch. on the other hand a Ukraine that owes the West its existance is more likely to embrace our values.
A excellent reply, thank you!
The problem as I see it, is the former chekist KGB and oligarchs are still ruling the roust in Kiev. With minor “war lords” heading well armed military militias. That have been integrated into the armed forces in name only. The future looks like more of the same to me. With the addition of western military equipment.
Ukraine under Putin’s rule would be terrible. No argument. I know his background very well. It will also be bad following the civil war to come. After the fight with Russia is officially over.
The best outcome for NATO, would be a partitioned and disarmed former Ukraine along broad ethnic lines. Policed by peace keeping forces and aided by humanitarian organisation. Acting as a buffer zone, while we seriously rearm and accept the reality of Cold War 2.
Pouring fuel on the fire by gifting arms to god knows who in Ukraine. Is not the way to secure peace. Unless drastic depopulation by self inflicted genocide is the aim.
Mmmmmm I’m not so sure- People do not change.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t help Ukraine – but we should be aware of the corruption that was (still is) endemic in their society and we shoud be under no illusions that if they are ever victorious that they would immediately change.
I seem to recall Cameron said exactly the same thing about the Chinese infractions and how trading with them would bring them more in line wth Western Spheres of influence and ‘behaviour’ – hows that working out.
So what if there former Soviet they ain’t anymore there fighting one of the most evil regimes in the world and selling them a few CVRT that have been in service since the 70s is a good thing
Selling! Sadly not. The evil former KGB and oligarchs are not conducting the war, unfortunately. Neither are their super rich Ukrainian counter parts. They are not communist anymore but both sides are still corrupt. They will be the only winners of this slaughter fest.
I’d agree, but unsure if these numbers include vehicles given to Ukraine.
I can only find mention of them being 23 Scimitars online.
The list is one of sales. We do not sell old kit to UKR, we gift it, so donated kit to UKR is not on the list.
I have always undeerstood that we gift military hardware to Ukraine, not sell them.
I think we should gift everything to UKR that is no longer required by our own forces, however The Tresury prefers us to sell old stuff where possible first.
This list is all about sales. As we gift kit to Ukraine, that is not on the list
What censors are you talking about?
I served too and made it my aim to understand the Warsaw Pact enemy we faced. At least as far as possible. It was a fascinating and shocking trip down the rabbit hole.
That is why I understand more than many, just how bad KGB/STASI trained Putin really is. But it also made me appreciate the enigma that we call Ukraine. Especially regarding the accumulation of post soviet power and wealth. It was the same for each of the USSR four privileged founding states. The training of former KGB security operatives gave them a distinct advantage in the power vacuum. Now those same players are leading the efforts to “combat corruption” in the system they invented.
If it were not for the huge number of deaths and suffering from this war. Criminals policing themselves on the world stage to secure weapon donations would be funny.
I appreciate that my open and honest opinions are not mirrored in the mainstream. But I stand by them and only ask that people have an open mind.
Sam wrote:
I dont think the full story is been told here , here is what the Uk has handed over to Ukraine as per SIPRI:
(50) AIM-120C AMRAAM BVRAAM
(2) ARTHUR arty locating radar
(30) AS-90B Mallet 155mm self-propelled gun
(890) Brimstone ASM
(50) Brimstone-2 ASM
14 Challenger 2 tank
(2) Challenger ARRV ARV
(60) Cougar APC
(200) FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missile
FV-432 APC Bulldog is the upgraded 432
(820) GMLRS guided rocket
(60) L-118 105mm towed gun
(300) LMM Martlet anti-ship missile/ASM/SAM
6 M-270 MLRS 227mm self-propelled MRL
(20) MXT-MV APV (Husky)
(6900) NLAW anti-tank missile
3 Sea King HAR-3 transport helicopter
(54) Spartan APC including Samaritan ambulance, Sultan command post and Samson ARV versions
60 Spartan APC Second-hand; financed with private donations
(1800) Starstreak
6 Stormer HVM mobile SAM system
2 Sandown minehunter
I’m certain that we had also given them some CVR(T)s. As these were seen and used last year doing some thunder run raids in Eastern Ukraine.
We certainly did, apparently they have been used to great effect by hit and run Javelin teams, a couple of teams in 4×4’s and a Scimitar riding Shotgun.
See Farouk’s post for the full list of CVR(T)s gifted to UKR.
Farouk’s list includes some CVR(T)s – Spartan APC, Samaritan ambulance, Sultan command post and Samson ARV versions, Stormer HVM.
At the bottom of his list.
I did see the list, just forgot to add Scimitar to the end.
Spartans.
That’s a lot of kit.
Wonder how much we have left!
And yet we have given far less military aid than the USA and quite a bit less than Germany. Norway has given more in % terms given its population basis and the Baltics even more in terms of % of GDP.
Agreed 👍
Well said.
MOD should read up on the predicament we found ourselves in at the start of WW2. Especially after Dunkirk. Every weapon regardless how old became worth it’s weight in gold. People trained in the use of them were even more important as instructors.
An armed conflict against a near peer is coming. My threat alert meter is peaking in the red. The hairs on my back are standing erect and square to the front! Not a nice feeling as my four sons are all P1 fighting fit.
British Governments have always been seriously bad at learning the lessons of history. And this scrapping of usable weapons is continuing – the tranche 1 Typhoons next……
In fairness half of the vehicles are from the White fleet which can’t deploy anywhere except the UK and Germany, and likely they are old vehicles which are being replaced.
Yes but those CVRT’s/Bulldogs are still worthy combat vehicles. if they are usable by foreign nations, then they are perfect for training and optional deployment with our reserve forces.
It’s something common with all the branches. Why are we selling/decommissioning equipment before replacements are accepted into service?
60 year old Vehicles are next to useless nowadays though….. Unless up against similar aged equipment….. And as for the modern age Drone Warfare, they are totally useless on the battlefield…. I think you need to catch up mate.
The 30mm Rarden was quite happy up against T55 and T72 back in 1991. Not that it is the intended role for CRVT. They are actually still in service and the fastest recce vehicles in the world. As for defending occupants from drones. Surely CVR(T) are better than the open top Jackals, currently being used in the same role.
Is that caught up enough for you.
George wrote:
The 30mm Shipunov 2A42 Auto cannon as fitted on the Ukrainian BTR4 was filmed taking apart a T72 during the start of the war.
The 25mm Bushmaster cannon as fitted to the M2 Bradley was filmed last week taking out a T90M
Granted the above two are auto cannons and whilst the Rarden is also, it is limited to a couple of 3 round clips,
If memory serves, in 1991 Scimitar crews were issued with Sabot rounds. On the off chance they did encounter Iraqi armour. The three round bursts from the very accurate Raden did the business.
Are there any 17/21 Lancer veterans reading this. Chip in with your first hand experiences lads. Embellishments and witty anecdotes are most welcome.
I belive the scimitar chose to depart the area in a hurry rather than start a fight
As is their role. But first hand accounts tell a different story of 30mm sabot rounds penetrating with ease. I wasn’t there so believe what you choose Andrew.
Again if memory serves, old brain cells. The Iraqi T55’s were soviet supplied. Many of the T72s of the Republican Guard were made from inferior armour to the soviet versions. Even so, it must have been a butt clenching encounter.
The point being 30mm Raden is still of some use with the right ammunition and fire control. It’s not the reason for selling off CVRT by the score! They were up engined and updated in other ways quite recently. Keeping them in reserve and issued to reserve light cav Yeomanry, makes sense. See my other comments.
“”Many of the T72s of the Republican Guard were made from inferior armour to the soviet versions.””
The T72 has a frontal cavity which in Russian service was filled with ceramic balls connected with wire with the spare space filled with metal. For the export versions (As sold to Iraq) that cavity was filled with sand. However, it was later found that when the liquid metal was poured into the Cvity with ceramic balls, the wire was prone to melting and depositing all the ceramic balls at the bottom. This was rectified by replacing the ceramic balls with ceramic rods
Regards the T72, it was designed as a cheaper MBT than the T64, which has far superior armour, and this has become most evident in the Ukraine where it forms the most numerous MBT for Kyiv and has been proven to survive better on the battlefield than its younger sibling.
Current MOD estimates of Russian losses include over 7000 AV’s and nearly 3000 MBT’s, it would be really interesting to know what equipment was used for each loss….. I watch a lot of Youtube channels showing the horrific events and drones are being used in a fair % of these losses….. It’s actually incredible to see a really cheap, small Drone taking out all those Russian Armored Vehicles, even head on.
Agreed Frank. The slow flying suicide drones with cameras that go dead on impact. Must be packing shaped charges. The videos of drones dropping frag munition through open hatches border on the hilarious. The footage of ukrainian militias dropping those same fragmentation munitions on obvious russian medical teams collecting the wounded. Not so much.
Russian medical teams? Never seen such a thing. I’ve seen them stealing clothes/anything in pockets etc of drying and dead but no actual stretcher carrying medical teams.
Try funker530. It’s there stretcher and all. I’m sure others on here have seen it too.
The Bradley was striping the T90 of its external fittings including its reactive armour. The tank was taken out by a drone after the crew ran away
The clip loading is an issue and requires very well trained and cool heads, as the rounds need to be on target!
If it all goes to shit, at least you can hightail it out of dodge quickly!
Hightailing it out of there is what a 7 ton recce vehicle should do rather than ‘mixing it’ with a tank.
It was one reason the Scimitar was designed to be so fast!
The whole purpose of recce is find the enemy, report and then run away and live to find the enemy another day..infact in WW2 the British army started removing the turrets of recce vehicles to both give a lower profile, reduce weight so increase cross country speed and help crews resist the urge to fight it out with Tanks etc…sawn off Stuart tanks were an actual thing..A number of Daimler armoured car were also sawn off and came with a second steering wheel facing backwards for quick escapes…..
Very true in every respect. Right down to the armoured rec. units finding it hard not to take a pop at the enemy. It’s the same today. Boys will be boys. .
Scimitar carries 165 rds of 30mm. Worth saying that in case anyone thinks Scimitar only carries 6 rounds!
My point was lost on you. I think i’ll not bother any further.
100% Let’s tell the USAF to retire the B52s.
I really appreciate your informed thoughts.
Ho ho ho good luck with that. They do love their BUFF’s.
I see…. You compare the B52’s with Bulldogs and actually think you are being Clever. 🙄
Lots of people are still using 60 year old vehicles to be honest…tiawan still has tanks built in the 1950s and they will be fighting in them.One thing Ukraine has shown…mass and reserves still matter…..if you use up your modern vehicles in the initial bloodbath and your enemy can rebuild units using old vehicles and you cannot..then you loss. One of the reasons Russia is still able to prosecute the Ukraine war is that it never throws anything away and re equipped a lot of its shattered units with older equipment.
One of the weakness that China especially perceives in the west is its inability to undertake and sustain a long war of attrition and china has no plans to do anything other than engage the west in a long attrition war to strategic and political exhaustion if WW3 does happen…it’s potentially possible the west would win campaigns and battles but loss a war due to its complete inability to replace combat losses.
Yes I know lot’s of Countries are using 60 year old kit….. and in Ukraine we are seeing it all being blown to smithereens by DJI Magics and Potensics…… A 60 year old Bulldog would be no different…. Just think, even Lada Cars are newer than these Bulldogs.
I would say by the time we were using 60 year old kit so would the enemy…the swift war is the ideal..but China and others would try and bog the west into a slow attrition war….not saying keep everything but just the usable stuff..we are working towards an armed forces with no attritional reserve…a win in week one or bust paradigm that simply will not work against a very large peer enemy that may take years to reduce.
That’s exactly the point – judging from the ancient systems the Russians are fielding in Ukraine, they would be!
‘Why are we selling/decommissioning equipment before replacements are accepted into service?’
Kit is old and obsolete and can’t stay in service longer.
Crossbows and longbows are the sustainable answer, let’s bring them back!
Actually crossbows are still used by a number of militaries..including the US and the Brazilian army jungle warfare school still trains people in its use…up until the 1940s the U.S. precursor to the CIA used as its standard assassination weapon the big Joe crossbow ( BJ5).
Jonathan, you do realise some of my posts are rather tongue in cheek, right?
Just pointing out if needs be a good crossbow can be your friend….and it gives me great pleasure in being a smarty pants.
In this age of draconian gun controls in GB. You will find many crossbows zeroed and hanging in garages, lofts, bedrooms etc.
I’m a pretty good archer so I will stick with my compound bow…far better that a crossbow….
I agree unless it’s completely OS like the harrier, phantom and Jaguar airframes….
But, but, but…
Harrier in-service with USMC
Jaguar in service with Indian AF
Phantom in service with Turkish AF
I would suggest the services dispose of some equipment a tad too quickly.
Centurions are still in service.
I understand the supply chain and training pipelines however, is there not a tendency to over complicate issues; Crapita is a case in point… and costly to boot.
Privatisation has left all three services not only denuded of bods but also posting opportunities and therefore retention possibilities.
Olden is golden.
I’m taking about those specific airframes..they will have all been stripped and left outside for years to rot…so not airworthy.
keeping the harriers in service would have been worthwhile if they had been given the money to keep them…the issue is the MOD had no choice but to dump them because the government would not provide the needed budge for defence. We should have never dropped the fast jet squadron numbers down to the level they were.
Lots of talk about keeping kit but who will operate it? The services are already struggling to recruit because the trendy won’t join, minorities rarely join which leaves the rest of us thinking that we aren’t going to fight either for them of for a government/system so incompetent and corrupt it’s beyond a joke.
The date selected was significant – kit disposed of since the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
UK MOD have supplied a number of bulldogs to Ukraine and i’m guessing much of the other stuff listed.
It’s madness! They should have been retained for reserve forces use. NOT given away to the very same people who inflicted soviet communism on the world!! Grrr what a waste. The Yeomanry would take your arm off to get their hands on them.
The reserves have enough ancient equipment to keep them satisfied.
Ukraine is putting them to much better use. If they stay here they will just be scrapped eventually, giving them to Ukraine means the Russian conventional threat diminishes ever so slightly.
Pouring fuel on the fire, rather than forcing them to the peace negotiating table. That’s an interesting way to depopulate eastern europe. More resources for us to exploit later!
Louis, what ancient equipment do the reserves have? Kit that is old enough to be declared Obsolete is withdrawn from service and sold, gifted or scrapped.
Who will maintain them in the Reservez?
Their REME LAD, who else?
The cap badge yes, but what actual people??? Recruitment and retention of Reserves is rubbish because of how people are treated. You are talking about people who don’t actually exist so my query stands…..
The same REME LAD they have now who currently service the Jackals.
Don’t be fooled by all the talk of low manpower numbers being due to a lack of willing volunteers. If the MOD wanted, they could have ques of potentials outside of every recruiting office tomorrow. Make salaries very attractive indeed, with other life long perks for veterans.
There is talk of dropping standards in order to meet the (failing) recruitment targets for this year. (Per both Telegraph and Daily Mail) All 3 services are losing people faster than they can be replaced. Like the police recruitment situation currently you then end up with inexperienced service people because little effort is made to retain.
The list in this article was about sales of old defence kit. We gift our kit to UKR so it wasn’t on the list in the article.
One of Farouk’s posts above has the list of kit gifted to UKR.
I Know that, I was referring to the Gov-Gov negotiations regarding an un specified number of Bulldogs.
Fly Harrier LTD…. I presume these 10 Harriers will end up on display somewhere ?
A House in Country life is on the market with a Harrier in the front garden beats the neighbours Gnome collection
Sentinels went to the US Army… apparently.
Like one of the posters said it would be wise to hang on to our Military vehicles equipment etc at the moment.If the government can try and get something right 🙄
23 Challenger turret shells
Does that mean we have 23 challengers upgraded already?
Shame they scrapped 2 more hulls though
No – the first CR3 prototypes are going to be unveiled next week i believe,the programme is making progress but not that quickly 👍.
Next week? That’s exciting news
I’m wondering about the 2 scrapped hulls. Could it be these were put forward for CR3 upgrade (and so would also account for 2 turrets) but rejected by Rheinmetall BAE Systems Land as unworkable for upgrade?
They’re presumably from the 73 long term storage CH2 but may even be from the tanks left outside.
Shame they weren’t converted to DTT.
22 DTT were ordered in the early 90s. I have not heard if or how many have been ‘retired’. Do you think we need more, especially as the RAC has got smaller since the early 90s, so fewer driver trainees going through the system?
22 DTT were ordered and are still in service. When the 2010 SDSR was announced, 118 Challenger 2s were going to be scrapped (halted later after 43 were scrapped) with the remaining 40 put in storage or converted to DTT. I think 18 were converted to DTT.
This was presumably the Army clawing back as much as possible so less Challenger 2 tanks were used for training and therefore more available for operations.
Given the Challenger 3 conversion strips tanks down completely and gives new armour etc. DTT should be able to be converted to Challenger 3.
The DTT will have a lot more mileage than the turreted vehicles, but they wouldn’t’ve been weighed down with a turret or add on armour so presumably are in better condition than the rest of the fleet. Challenger 2s in poor condition would then be converted to DTT.
The reason the army is not doing this and is instead scrapping the tanks in poor condition, is that they don’t need to do it as only 148 Challenger 3s will enter service, and a corresponding decrease in the number of DTT.
The rumours about the army not having enough hulls in good enough condition aren’t based on the fact that the army doesn’t have 148 hulls in good enough condition, but that the army might not have enough hulls to give to industry and maintain enough in service. This is probably one of the reasons as to why the tanks in Canada were brought back in late 2022.
The tanks were probably from long term storage as the number floated around used to be 75, but my FOI a few months ago to determine whether they were held in CHE (they are) says that’s 73 now.
Hi Louis, sorry but my replies are out of synch!
The 2010 defence review – stated that the CR2 fleet would be reduced by 40% (ie 154 tanks) leaving balance of 232 in the active fleet. In the event for some reason active fleet was reduced to 227 (no idea why the delta of 5 tanks).
SDSR did not say scrapped (we usually only scrap equipments that are declared Obsolete and can’t for some reason be sold or gifted). I have never heard the 118 figure – where has that come from?
Most therefore assumed that the 159 to be taken off the active list would be mothballed at Ashchurch.
In the event 43 of the 159 were scrapped sometime in the 2010-2014 period but no-one knows who gave the order to do so. It’s a complete mystery.
I still don’t understand why 18 would be converted to DTT when the army had 22 DTT which was a sufficient number for a much larger tank fleet and a higher number of armoured regiments. I have bot seen info about these 18 conversions – where has that info come from. As well as being illogical to create more DTT for a smaller RAC, it is such a waste of a combat tank. It would also cost serious money to do the conversion. Who did it anyway?
I don’t get your explanation of the rationale for converting 18 MBTs to DTT following the 2010 review. DTTs are only used for intial, basic driver training at the RAC Centre, once a rookie driver has ‘graduated’ from the simulator. They are not used for any other purpose. With only 3 armoured regiments emerging from the 2010 review (reducing to 2 in the next few years) there are not as many basic drivers going through the RAC Centre as there once was. Why have even more DTTs?
I am not sure if it is straightforward to convert DTTs to CR3s (and why do it anyway). I understand that the DTT did not have Chobham armour so its physical structure might be very different to the MBT, so be difficult to embody the new Special Armour. DTTs would of course fail the acceptable presentation standard set between RBSL and MoD as it would not have a turret!
Your fourth para suggests you want even more DTTs than the current 40! Joking aside – I have not heard anything about new and unique DTTs for the CR3 era. No idea what the plan is – I have seen no announcements. If new CR3-based DTTs are to be built, then why no announcement so far…and would the MoD want 22 or 40 CR3 specific DTTs? I suspect less than 22 required due to low driver throughput.
I think Daniele also said once that the BATUS tanks were brought back (and a lot of other armour besides), but Med Mans still run although not at the rate they once did. But what do they use instead of CR2s? The whole point of BATUS was that a BG based on an armoured regiment was put though its paces.
You are correct that it didn’t mention tanks would be scrapped. At the 2010 SDSR 345 Challenger 2s were in service which is where the 118 is from. I don’t know what happened to the other 40 as the MOD has only ever given the number of tanks scrapped since 2010.
The MOD has since removed all FOIs that relate to the conversion of CH2 to DTT, and wouldn’t answer the question in my FOI last year.
These converted DTT can be identified by their serial numbers.
There was an FOI I saw a few years back from ~2016 saying 18 had been converted. That has since been removed. An old think defence article from 2012 quotes a government source saying 16 had been converted.
I don’t know for certain if BATUS tanks have been withdrawn. Some tanks in desert camo were at Ashchurch, I assumed they were BATUS, but I don’t know if tanks withdrawn 2010 were ever repainted
The army doesn’t have many tanks. I don’t know how many were at BATUS- 2 squadrons + HQ = 30 There’s 30 in Estonia and at least 58 in storage in Germany. From numbers here I’m guessing at least 23 have been given to industry, and there may be some in Oman in BATUS type training.
You’ll probably know how many tanks each regiment has in WFM, I’d assume at least 1 squadrons strength, and either 3 squadrons + HQ or a full regiment in Salisburys training fleet.
That’s already 227 without counting stored tanks at Ashchurch or Oman, and having small fleets in the tank regiments. Out of 286 tanks active or in long term storage there’s no wonder the army can’t find enough in good enough condition and it suggests that the ones given to industry so far have been from the long term storage fleet.
Hi Louis. I too think that BATUS has or had 30 tanks. I have no idea what the latest state of play is regarding WFM – can’t find any OS info that is less than 15-20 years old – it would be interesting to know.
Why do you think the army can’t find enough (ie 148) tanks in good enough condition for conversion by Industry to CR3? Who is saying that?
Before RBSL start to convert the tanks to CR3 build standard the donor tanks (I heard from somewhere – not sure of source) are subjected to a Base Overhaul (BOH) – not sure if MoD/Babcocks is doing that or part of RBSL.
If so, then, within reason, it would not matter whether tanks supplied to the BOH ‘line’ are in good or poor condition, just so long as they did not have distorted hulls or were missing crucial parts required for the later upgrade conversion.
I would challenge the use of the phrase BOH in that source document however as it would not make sense to overhaul an assembly, sub-assembly or component that is going to be discarded on the upgrade ‘line’. But it is a convenient shorthand term to use to describe bringing a donor tank up to the minimum acceptable presentation standard required by RBSL.
Louis, why do you want the RAC to have more than 22 DTTs? Its such a waste to lose and convert them into yet more DTTs.
Why does an RAC smaller than that of the the 90s need more DTTs?
RAC already has more than 22 DTT as a number were converted in 2010 when the big reduction in numbers happened. I was suggesting converting hulls in too poor condition for CH3 to DTT, allowing DTT to be put in storage prepped for CH3 so they could be converted to CH3 at a later date if we ever wanted to increase numbers, or in time of war. Given they have not been weighed down by a turret since 2010 they will likely be in better condition.
I was an ESM in the TSS IPT in 2002-3. If I was still doing that job, I would not have signed up to a plan that took CR2s with very poor hulls – converted them at considerable cost to DTTs that were not needed (and still had a dodgy hull?), store them for umpteen years, and then fix the hull (if possible) and convert them to CR3s at a later date.
The UK has a finite amount of tank hulls. In wartime it would take a long time to start up production of a tank hull. Having plans to maximise the number of tanks that could be upgraded if needed is never a bad thing.
Tanks in too poor condition for CH3 might not be in that bad condition. Given DTT don’t have a turret and have armour stripped, surely they could still be used in that role. I will bow to your experience here though.
The second half of your paragraph has misinterpreted what I thought could happen.
Tanks in too poor condition for CH3 would be converted to DTT. The corresponding number of DTT would then be taken and stripped of everything as happens to tanks before being upgraded to CH3. They would then be placed into CHE storage.
If at any time, more CH3 were required, those hulls would be sent to RBSL.
It would also open the doors for in wartime converting DTT to CH3. Given there is an entire regiment of reservist tank crews, and many more in the regular reserve that would only require refresher training, the bottleneck for a high intensity war would be hull numbers, not trained crews, so DTT could be converted.
Hi Louis, certainly the UK has a finite number of tanks/tank hulls and it would take a long time to manufacture new tanks and/or new hulls. UK still declares 213 CR2s on the active list – (and others are on the inactive list, as we know).
Upgrades take a long time too and there would not be time to do it if General War loomed with little notice. The upgrade from CR2 to CR3: Contract Award (CA) was in May 2021 – FOC to be in 2030. Plus there was much prep work before CA – I was working on CR2 LEP for Rheinmetall in 2016. So 14 years!!
You advocate that CR2 tanks not good enough to upgrade to CR3 but not too bad, should be converted to DTT – I still don’t see why – the army does not need more DTTs, surely. I estimate that the army might train 25-35 lads to be tank drivers on their Ph 2 trg per year – you say we already have 40 (22+18) DTTs! We don’t need more. We have got too many. Why waste money on doing this? I have little info on DTT spec but the 22 originals were scratch built obviously (not converted MBT), were built without Chobham Armour and have a cab superstructure for the instructor and students waiting their turn at driving) instead of a turret. Why not just leave these lower quality MBTs at Ashchurch ‘as is’ for either further cannibalisation in the CR2 era or for possible future upgrade to CR3 if hull defects could be fixed in the future.
I am not sure if it is possible to convert an original CR2 DTT (one of the 22) to an operational CR3 MBT as I do not know enough about any differences in its construction from MBT, specifically as to whether modern Special Armour could be embodied in the hull. Could an original DTT even take a turret – does it have a turret ring?
MoD should only supply tanks to RBSL that are workable for upgrade.
Agreed, Graham. Just wondered if RBSL spotted flaws when they got them that were previously missed or something.
It’s possible – mistakes can happen. There is usually a formal document detailing the acceptable presentation standard to be met by MoD before any Level 4 work is commenced by a base workshop or manufacturer. For the very reason that nugatory work should avoided.
Back in the day when units handed in AFVs for Base Overhaul to the old ABRO or REME Base workshop they had to be complete to CES, down to the last loose fitted item.
Challenger turrets will be preparing hulls for CH3. The 2 hulls scrapped will be hulls that are in poor condition so unable to be upgraded. Also unclear where these hulls are from, could be from the 73 hulls in CHE storage, the 40 odd stores outside for ten years that weren’t scrapped or the 213 still in service.
Your first sentence does not make sense.
A couple of months ago one MP was kicking off about the slow progress in the challenger re builds. Reading between the lines it seems many of the hulls are not serviceable. Doubtless been canableised over the years. We probably don’t have as many anymore. Hence why Ukraine only got the 14 they did
I agree about the slow progress. I worked on the CR2 LEP project for Rheinmetall in 2016. FOC for CR3 is not until 2030. (IOC in 2027).
That was 14 too many of a finite national resource. Especially given we have lost the strategic industrial capability to build more. Every time I drive past the old Vickers site at Elswick my eyes tear-up. BTW, the company helping to upgrade Challenger 2 is based there. So not all is lost. Yet! As far as I know, we cannot produce armour plates anymore and need to import. Talk about stupidity in Whitehall.
I’m pretty sure the new Armour Arrays ( Epsom and Farnham) for CR3 are UK built, I would find it very odd and sad if we couldn’t produce the Base Armour plating here anymore.
Sadly regardless of the number of Challenger hulls etc where would the crews to operate them come from?
Good riddance to the Snatch Land Rovers.
Peacetime Taxis, Wartime Hearses.
They were fielded for Op Banner and were fine in that role. In an ideal world they should never have been fielded to Op Telic or Herrick – we should have had MRAPs instead from Day 1 – but even fast-track UOR kit takes a little time to come in, once the politicos/Tresury have green-lit the project.
They were good for what they were designed to do
But for pity sake do not replace them with antisemitic marxist labour. We have plenty of smaller parties UKIP for example, who are well aware of the problems we face. Neglected and deteriorating armed forces along with porous borders, rape gangs etc.
Even the armed forces themselves would be a preferable temporary government. Just until common sense is re-established and an alternative proportional representation election system is rolled out. One with biometric identity checking and without postal votes for civilians. No more Peterborough fiascos etc.
Just to clarify is this your fourth call for a military coup in the last nine weeks?
Please chat to your doctor re your meds.
Did I really call for a coup. You need to read it again, mate.
FYI. Your insults could be reported as breaching comment moderation policy. So please refrain and try posting valid counter arguments.
On the first three occasions you did. This has provoked numerous complaints and comments reflecting the fact that you are a disgrace to the British military and should forfeit your military pension on grounds of treason.
Now you say ‘Even the armed forces themselves would be a preferable temporary government.’ Do you really think you are kidding anyone?
It’s not my fault if people cannot tell the difference between tongue in cheek OTT piss takes and serious intentions. That would never be broadcast if true. If you think the military is capable of organising/replacing HM. Gov. It’s you who needs professional help.
Here’s one for you Chris based on experience. Rearrange the following words into a sentence. – (Brewery army in help up couldn’t piss the organise a they without.) – Take your time, ask a friend if required.
In fact lets open this to everyone. Write your answers in pencil on a £20 pound note and send them to the usual address. RBL London, SE1 1AA
It would seem that the tales of government woe, calamity, fraud and corruption are endless.
Why I hear you ask… ‘since 2022’. Ukraine would have been able to do something constructive with this lot I’m sure.
Sold to who? Why? Not the company on the A12 surely? I know they have made a fortune buying and reselling MOD stuff over the years.
They should give the proceeds to sort out the truly shocking state of having an estimated 6,000 vets sleeping rough daily
On the BAE news website they are sponsoring RBLI’s The Great Tommy Sleepout in March for £30,000
I did post it with the link from BAE / the British Legion and is awaiting approval
(George has explained recently one of his editorial colleague has just had a baby and caused a short delay to verify links etc)
So no link but please look
A lot of these veterans need our help with PTSD family breakdown and then abuse problems
It seems governments of any persuasion are not doing enough
Also the commercial arm of the MOD slimming down and selling off our hardware should be slimmed down as Ukraine and ourselves need it more (Oh dear its going to happen anyway as shortly the cupboard is bare and there will be nothing else to sell)
Don’t Shelter UK figures show that ~ 3000 people are sleeping rough in the UK on any given night ?
Hi Simon,
Yes you are correct 3,000 sleeping rough with 309,000 being homeless (most in temporary accommodation) Apologies I thought homeless meant out on the street
The numbers are still way too high on both of them
There is kit missing from the scrapped list I know for a fact a number of As90 have been scrapped and a number of landrovers and trailers
And the 14 CH2 to Ukraine.
And a number of As90 went to Ukraine as well
The list in the article is about Sales. We gift kit to UKR. See Farouk’s post for the kit gifted to UKR.
…since Feb 2022?
Yes
My original comment was about equipment scrapped since Feb 22 the list doesn’t include landrovers trailers and As90
Interesting. I had not heard of AS90s being scrapped but it does not surprise me as 43 CR2s were scrapped, but that was back in the 2010-2014 period.
For years I’ve been saying some of this stuff being disposed of is reckless at the best of times. However with the war in Ukraine raging some people in the MOD need to be brought to book. Ask why much of this stuff hasn’t been sent or given to Ukraine. Are people getting back-handers? What exactly is going on? Why are Challenger 2 hulls being scrapped? I do think there must be corruption or gross negligence at best.
The challenger hulls will have been evaluated for upgrade to CH3 and presumably found to be in too poor condition.
Maybe, but are we really in a position to scrap any Challenger stuff at all? Why not give Ukraine all the Challenger parts and see if they could make two serviceable tanks. I’ll bet they can. I’d like to see photos and the w/off report.
Best thing we could do would be to have an open review of post Feb 2022 equipment.
Given its 23 challenger turrets and 2 challenger hulls scrapped, presumably the MOD gave RBSL 23 or more Challengers to prepare for CH3, and 2 were in a bad condition. Ukraine has little need for just 2 Challengers, especially if they are in such a poor condition. Presumably these were tanks in storage previously.
We do of course need to supply 148 fair quality CR2s to RBSL for upgrade to CR3 – and have a fleet of CR2s for usage (in tank units, trg org, repair pool, attrition reserve) before CR3 is fielded (IOC 2027, FOC 2030).
farouk – it seems the exchange has fallen foul of those who do not support freedom of speech!
We will just have to wait until the veil of propaganda preventing truthful accounts in the media, is relaxed. I’m of the opinion that the roots of this war/special military c/up can be found in the rivalry between the Russian and Ukrainian oligarchy. With other global interests seeking their own slice of the lucrative pie.
If independent video journalists are to be believed. Most of Ukrainian wealth is safely at anchor in Turkish territorial waters, alongside the vessels of their Russian adversaries. Awaiting an upturn in the luxury yacht market or victory, whichever comes first. The owners residing in their mansions in France, Spain and England. So much for cleaning up it’s act.
I have already told you we’re trying to work through comments as quickly as we can, I cannot fathom why you think its a conspiracy.
Hello George,
If I may question you on a few points please?
You allow repeated calls for a military coup, some open, some hypocritically worded.
When people call this out as treason and the traitors complain you pull the conversation.
You have published articles on hybrid warfare being used against the West, including the use of social media to undermine democracy.
The people I think are using your site to do this are open supporters of UKIP/Brexit/Reform parties. The first Arron Banks court ruling found it had been proven to a criminal burden of proof that Leave overspent illegally, that it concealed this from regulators, and that the money originated from unknown foreign sources. None of those rulings were ever appealed.
Do you think you should tighten up your moderation policy?
I think anyone who calls for a military coup should face having their ip banned, and no posts from concealed ips.
“The people I think are using your site to do this are open supporters of UKIP/Brexit/Reform parties.” …………. give it up now mate….. you lost, you have to let go eventually….. Oh and Just let George run his site the way he wants… yes ?
Why scrap those warriors they would have been welcomed by the Ukrainians
Things do ware out
Not if they are of such a poor standard that they had to be scrapped.
Hopefully the monies from all these sales gets pumped back into defence coffers and used towards what’s needed!?
The Jaguar went to Elvington, the Yorkshire air museum:
https://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/jaguar/survivor.php?id=1095
It does make you wonder if these figures are correct given the amount of kit govsales.co.uk and mod-sales.com have up for sale.
For example there are 50 x Hagglunds Bv206 Personnel Carrier – MoD Ref: 11729for sale
MAN CAT A1 8×8 Cargo Truck x 17 for sale
Oshkosh M1070 Tractor Units – MoD Ref: 40125 x 6 for sale
Will we have anything left with the amount of those sales?
Some of it is very old stuff like Seddon Atkinson 68 ton tractor unit – MoD Ref: 32981 ( there were 50 for sale last year ) they are over 30 years old. There are loads of Bedford and DAF trucks as well.Still it quite a lot of kit
Surely the figures show sales and transfers completed not sales and transfers pending.
I would have thought the stuff at Witham Specialist Vehicles would be considered to be sold
Witham’s are Govt approved disposal agents – im guessing that Equipment is only classed as sold when it has been bought off of them.
Hi Graham
Yes, some of that kit has been on the website for quite a long time and is very old. 30 year old Seddon Atkinson tractor units , numerous DAF,Bedford & Forden lorries. Land rovers etc. there are quite a few of the newer Man lorries on there. Just thinking, although the website shows years worths of equipment, it makes the MOD released 2 year list seem a bit low.
The list shows kit sold (or scrapped) from Feb 2022 to maybe Dec 2023 ie over a 22 month period.
The kit on those websites you mention must show kit that is for sale since then, in a single month, Jan 2024. I am not surprised it has different numbers.
There’s still six type 45’s to be sold off next!
Aren’t huskies still current gear. Odd to sell them off rather than keep for any surge needs or spare parts.
With dire state of our armed forces maybe we should be buying them back , every little helps
Is the dire state of our forces due to them lacking kit that is very old?
It’s down to cuts on top of cuts and a government that doesn’t grasp the need to invest and have a rolling programme of renewal for ships , planes and other kit that will wear out at some point and can’t be replaced overnight
Thanks. Sorry, I thought you wanted MoD to sell off old kit, then buy it back!
Totally right that there is no credible rolling programme. In my own area of Land equipment, then 25 years is a reasonable length of service for most key combat platforms (they still need upgrading during their service of course) –
but the army runs c.60 year old 432s, (has run to Apr 23) 50 year old CVR(T)s, 35 year old Warriors, 30 year old AS90s). Upgrades, if they happened at all, were occasional, often minor and implemented later than they should have been.
‘B’ Vehs are often kept in service for 15, 20 or more years, often long past their optimum ‘sell by date’.
Our political masters don’t even have the common sense to keep these things in strategic last resort reserves bearing in mind the decades it takes to rebuild or remanufacture! Not all of these can be of course but an old weapon system is usually better than nothing. Those same masters also create ever increasing capability gaps when things are taken out of service before replacements are available. Could we equip our population with small arms for example, what did we do with all the old SLRs? Could we recreate at short notice a functioning Home Guard or Civil Defence infrastructure? Could we cope with mass medical casualties?
I was said that most of the SLR barrels were worn out. Don’t know if that is true.
I wouldn’t be surprised but still better than nothing and a lot easier to replace a barrel than try and rebuild from scratch in huge quantities.
Heard that too. As someone said earlier “things do wear out” especially if you actually bother to use (practice) with them
Nick,
We just don’t have that concept of keeping Obsolete kit for WW3. It would cost a a fortune to store such kit, including the STTE, Trg Aids, Spares, simulators, publications etc etc. We would have to pay the OEM to continue as Design Authority and maintain the Safety Case and embody safety mods forced by H&S and new legislation. In time we would lose all those in uniform with expertise at operating and maintaining the old kit. Plus MoD has very limited storage space, especially for the physically big items like AFVs; storage depots would need extra staff. MoD would be denied revenue from sales. I am sure similar problems would exist to store old RN and RAF assets.
SLRs – are you serious? SA80 started to replace them in 1985. Probably all the SLRs would have gone by the very early 90s – some 30 years ago – together with all the ancils. Do we need to equip the population with such weapons? We never did that in the world wars.
The MoD phased out the HSF, formed in 1982, a modern day Home Guard, when the Cold War ended. [There had been at least 50 HSF squadrons or companies formed by 1985]. Civil Defence, UKWMO and the ROC went the same way for the same reason. Could we recreate quickly? It would be too late to do that if the Russians rolled over the border into a Baltic state, with only a few months notice.
I appreciate that obsolenscence and lack of experience of old stuff is an issue. But an old rifle or tank is better than none! How else has Russia been able to support so much armour loss in Ukraine? It doesn’t mean that repair and maintenance lines have to be maintained especially as old kit is invariably cannibalised anyway but if we don’t keep some strategic reserves of equipment we have nothing to fall back on. I’d much rather have an old Lee Enfield in the absence of an SLR (yes I’ve used both) or SA80 than a pitchfork! If we run out of Challengers we haven’t even any Chieftains to use still less get the Centurions back that are still in use in places! It is easier to change ammuntion maufacturing to keep these usable than build new tanks. Just in Time might work for civil manufacturing but is completely inappropriate for defence. Until the 70s we did use to have warehouses and old stocks in store. It is only cost cutting, austerity and tax cuts over the decades that has taken precedence over preparedness for the increasingly likely. Parallels with the 1920s and 1930s!
Thanks Nick. I am just passing on the official MoD view as it was when I was serving and probably unchanged since. There are other equipment worries. I had a dialogue with Daniele once and we were not sure if a light role Inf Bn has got sufficient, or even any, organic TCVs to lift the battalion – we didn’t think they had. Its a long way to Tipperary – even further to Moscow without a truck!
Yeh, I think the trouble is that the ‘official line’ is one set by political masters to try and suggest that all is fine and dandy. More selling off the old family silver. Short term bean counting takes precedence of common-sense and future issues. Never do something now if it’ll cost more and also more urgently later!
People really do believe there is always “a wee man” somewhere to do these things….
The government and mod ploughs on spending money on integration and other consultants to ensure we don’t upset the LGBTQ+-zdnsjdjsksjejxnsklahdjsn community but ignore the fact we are in the early stages of ww3 with Russia, Iran, north Korea actively involved and China dabbling with Philippines and Taiwan. We need to be increasing our armed forces and their material strength not selling stuff off. I would rather be in battle with a catapult than with nothing, not even my underpants so nothing is so out of date we don’t need it amd need it urgently. We should be building kit, fixing kit, training people getting ready, we did it in the nick of time for ww2 but we are leaving it far far far too late now. The anti British civil service have worked 70 years to reduce our manufacturing, mining, confidence, shipyards, research we need to be correcting it now, it’s already too late but it’s time to wake up
Not only is there a recruiting “crisis” a deliberate policy but so is the retention “crisis.” It’s quite obvious that shrinking manpower will result in the remaining personnel being over stretched/over worked. Leave is cancelled as is adventure training. But also reducing the number of separate units reduces the need for senior staff and limits promotion prospects. No wonder we have disillusioned troops, sailor and aircrew.
There is a lower numerical threshold below which a volunteer force becomes nonviable, no longer self sustainable. All branches of the British Armed Forces are well below that level and have been for quite some time. But that is not the end of the matter. Our strategically important military industries cannot survive when orders fall below a certain level. (A small force simply needs less equipment.) However, unlike France, for example, the UK defence industry has seemingly been unable to produce military equipment that both satisfy our own military but good enough, and cheap enough, to be purchased by other militaries. While we collaborated with other countries to produce the Typhoon, France built the equally good Rafale. Germany sold Leopards to many countries, Challenger…..not so much.
(Adapted from another contribtor)
says it really we sold off sweepers, retired ships and submarines which still had years left in them sold out only helicopter assault ship for less than wed than we spent refitting it.