What makes frigate deniers tick?

All the out of context, rumours, partially read statements, plainly false information. Particularly peope responding to things they imagine or misinterpret and take as gospel. Conspiracy theories fall into these categories too.

All good Mate. Recently I had also had the same issues- ghost in the machine I reckon. I think your arithmetic is spot on, I’d be stunned if T32 goes ahed and we recover beyond 19 ships.

Thanks for nothing 2010 SDR!

I suggest you read something sensible too, and think about it. Nobody has ever said or inferred that the Navy would buy warships from a foreign country, new or old. That is the fake news! What was said was that shipbuilding woudl continue. Some foolish peopke conflate ships with nothing other than warships! And in any event Royal Navy are not the only country with warships and many countrires buy them in anyway. And an independent Scotland would be buulding its own. The fake news is someone spreading false information either maliciously or inadvertently based on someone failing to read or understand some event, fact or statement, or trying to disseminate a propaganda position to undermine someone else – in other words treat them like fools.

I suggest you drop your usual Nats word salad and answer my question.
If you are refering to other shipbuilding , are you refering to two Ferries currently under “ construction” , how is that going?

The fact remains if and it currently is a big IF should Scotland becomes independent, all RN warship building on the Clyde and the Forth will go south of the border.

I suggest you read and use your brain. Where were the aircraft carriers built? Where are the new frigates being built? Comparing one small yard trying to build two ferries and ignre all the other cost fiascos elsewhere in UK? What about all the other ships that get built in Scotland. And don’t be so ridiculous to start calling names. Think about the shenanigans in Westminster before calling anyone else out! Nothing to do with IFs. Apart from anything else those 2 ferries were done on a design and build basis and when the specifications get moved during that time what is the outcome? Much like Warrior, Challenger 3, Ajax, Nimrods, Track and Trace (the costs of which are in the billions not millions) the litany of failed Westminster projects mean that the ferries pales into insignificance. Do not jump to conclusions based on very narrow propaganda statements while ignoring all other factors. NOBODY, NOBODY, NOBODY is denying that RN warships will be built somewhere else. NOBODY, NOBODY, NOBODY has said otherwise so your point is? Just because RN won’t does not mean others won’t either. There are other warship users around the world.

I suggest you follow your own advice instead of playing nationalist games. The topic of the articles was about people ( mainly nationalist) deliberately distorting naval shipbuilding in Scotland.
I simply pointed out and you have furiously word saladed that should independence ever occur that naval ship building for the RN would end north of the boarder despite what the SNP claim without foundation. I further went on to say why it would end.
Technically the aircraft carriers were assembled in Scotland. The individual module were manufactured all over Britain and transported by barge to Rosyth. Which is the only dry dock big in the U.K. currently big enough and structurally stable enough for the QE class carrier.
Sorry you don’t like the facts.
Then you of course go into the usual nationalist tactic of Whitaboutery!! My advice is keep it until they publish articles on Chally 3, Ajax ( numerous already) etc
Basically STAY ON TOPIC !!!

TTFN

Care to name any non military vessel of a serious size other than the two ferries currently or in recent years built in Scotland?
And I didn’t sling any names. I called you a nationalist. I do not consider that insulting, just a statement of your political position.

Follow your own advice!!

If you take your blinkers off you may well appreciate a more rounded understanding! I am not calling you anything. If you read I have merely outlined various factors and at no time have pursued any political direction. The difficulty with the unionist arguments is that they are just as polarised and misleading as the other side. The facts are that ships are built in Scotland and that has not and will not change. Serious sized ships by your thinking clearly excludes frigates and destroyers! Currently under very successful construction and being delivered. That is the elephant in the room ignored by Unionists. And huge vessel construction and maintenance capability remains available, though there isn’t such a market for these. Despite objections ship building goes on and will go on. The only difference which nobody said would ever remain were RN ship production. No nationalist Scottish Or Unionist has disputed that or stated otherwise. It is the idiotic and blinkered conflation with an incorrect assumption that the only ships built here now and in future would be RN that is the problem. Far too many people take polarised and binary assumptions about everything completely ignoring anything that is contrary to supporting those polarised beliefs.

Considering you started off by attacking my post that all RN warship construction would end post independence ( should it ever happen) , you have gone fully circle.
You then went on to claim other non military ship building was going on in Scotland ( other than the ferries ) I asked you to name them. So far you haven’t.
Sadly Turkey are due to construct two ferries , for considerably less money before either the Glen Sannox or her sister even move one passenger.
The Nationalist government recently refused to provide Fergusion’s with the necessary capital investment so they could compete for warship work.
I am not disputing there are ship repair facilities in Scotland, none of which have the backing of the Nationalist assembly to make them viable.
Once again I suggest you follow your own advice and remove your own blinkers.

Consider first that I did NOT attack your comment. Second, Ferguson has been supplied with lots of finance. I am not a naval architect (neither presumably are you, and also both of us are not presumably privy to business contracts and details so your question which may be of interest is irrelevant, and neither of us can give informed advice or knowledge of the state of play at such a specific level. There are yards building ships and I do not recall saying anything about current contracts which may or may not be in place. Your problem is that you make assertions about facts that you cannot substantiate, usually based on rumour, inuendo and fake news. What I said was that the yards and expertise exists, and RN are not the only people who want complex ships. Aside from this the procurement processes are exactly the same as used by Westminster in a UK basis, and the ability of the devolved nations to do anything other than tinker at the edges of those UK policies is very limited. And in terms of finance is completely constrained as the only effective source of administration revenue is dictated by HMT. MoD and UK procurements are all subject to woeful management as we all know so it is a case of the pot callng the kettle black. Before you go off, yes it is known and acknowledged that RN will not build ships in ‘foreign’ yards, except of course when it suits them, and nobody said they would purchase ships in Scotland after any independence, except of course if it suits them at the time.

I am very happy for you.

Bye!!

My only “assertions” was
1) post Indy , all RN warship construction in Scotland will cease. That is a fact backed up by MoD policy.
Fortunately Indy is a very remote possibility .

You can argue black is white and play your word salad games all you like.
You claim commercial ship building is still happening in Scotland other than the two “ never” ferries. But you can’t “ recall” very convenient perhaps a goggle search might help!!

I suggest you look. your point 1) has never been denied and it is the only thing that started this whole chain off. People make such a statement as though it is some newly found profound insight and stating the obvious by using it to infer that someone had stated that RN would continue building ships in an independent Scotland. My point is that yards exist, can and do build ships and just because RN were to cease to be a customer, more commercial work would be undertaken in their place. Not pursued at the moment because of UK economic and business decisions. Having a business predicated on a sole single customer is not good practice at all, and unfortunately again, UK decisions have creaetd that situation. You continue with your assertions again. There is no ‘fortunately’ involved. Which if you think about it is based on it not being allowed at any time, by external actors. It may or may not happen and it is not a remote possibility. Denial, remote, obfuscation, misdirecting, false assumptions, etc. are also word games! Eliminate the word game and we are back to where we started. Nobody ever said that RN would continue to build ships in an independent Scotland, so it is pointless saying that as though it is a new found revelation.

This “ chain” was sparked by you and your problem with a simple fact you prefer to hide. Like all Nationalist.
myth including pension, warship building and cross border trade to name several

I will leave you to fight with yourself.
I have better things to do than argue with a certain type of person.

TtFN I expect we will talk again when I point out another uncomfortable truth!!

I wasn’t hiding anything. It was your absolutely sure, statements about things that have yet to happen or may never happen. Wishful thinking is not certainty. You obviously have never looked at any statements just blind belief (wishful thinking) cognitive dissonance that prevents you thinking straight, listening or observing. Who said anything abut nationlism? What is so different about British nationalism and Scottish nationalism anyway? Cross border trade, as in Northern Ireland? Pensions what myth? And I repeat, NOBODY said RN would continue to procure warships from any independent country. Those are the myths you peddle. You are the one asserting that they wouldn’t as though somebody insisted they would. But just because RN wouldn’t be a customer, there are other countries who are potential customers. So the point about warships you were implying is nonsense anyway. And weher does your nationalist accusation come from? Pointing out flaws in arguments, errors and misunderstandings does not state any contrary position. You have fallen into the trap of so many people that cannot see the wood for the trees amd fall continuously for fake news and propaganda, and refuse to concede any position than the one they prefer.

Have a very nice Christmas !!!!

Well if you had of read the SNP claims on MOD equipment during the Scottish Indy referendum they wanted the Scottish regts and equipment transferred to them! (ships,aircraft as well) If you care to read that go to The Pin striped line and go back on his posts.

If you had read as well, all of it, then perhaps you would see where you are wrong. Scotland has already paid for and contributed to all the resources, and still does. As in any divorce or break up each side is entitled to its share. Clearly the people involved will always have a choice, but the entities themselves would more or less remain. Nobody, nobody, nobody has said people would be forced to reman where they do not wish to be. If you read the book Scotland’s Future, Scotland the Brief, and all the other papers you will see that your out of context understanding is wrong.

Not really what I was saying! The snp wanted to claim Scottish regts and personnel as part of their share of commitments.All I was saying is that no serving member of the armed services would be forcibly transferred to any SDF despite the regts being transferred.

And did I disagree with that statement – no! Scotland contributed (we pay taxes to HM Treasury too) to the structures and resources. So those resources are liable to be transferred and re-arranged on a pro-rata basis (as with any break up, divorce or similar). Nobody said any member of the armed forces would be forcibly kept in Scotland against their wishes. That is something wrong that you have introduced. Aside from anything else it would be contrary to Employment Law.

Has anyone said the opposite. A commercial yard operates on a business basis. Current industrial strategy is dictated by a UK government (reserved function) so extrapolating from that position is wholly incorrect as in the event of Independence taht would all change. The biggest mistake people make is that the current strategies and policies would remain unchanged. Clearly they would change but until such time as they do it is not possible to predict ahead. Shipbuilding expertise and design remains as they are not subject to political policies, particularly the historic antipathy of the UK ‘Establishment’ to anything involving ‘working peope’, and ‘trade or getting your hands dirty’ technologies.

However the Judges have decided that performing Presidential duties is distinct from action as a candidate. This is both logical and correct in that his electoral fraud charges are to be tried and he will be accountable to We The People for his Big Lie of 2020 election fraud.

Specifically he alleged corrupt election results where there is no evidence of that except the fake electors conspiracy that he attempted to perpetrate. Trial has already shown that election workers were not corrupt and were defamed by co-conspirators including Rudy Giuliani.

So the old repeat a lie until the gullible accept it routine.

Have you actually seen the plans of what was built where ? All of the pre outfitted hull Mega Blocks, flight deck and superstructure were pre built elsewhere. Only the Sponsons were built at Rosyth. Look up the Photos of them being shifted by barge, pretty impressive.

Of course. But that was so that work could be spread around. It could all of been done at Rosyth, but not as quickly. If the integration and final fit out could have been done there all the rest of it could have as well, especially using traditional open-air methods.