In the wake of a recent BBC Scotland News tweet regarding Labour’s plans to boost Royal Navy shipbuilding in Scotland, a surge of responses has presented a deeper issue: the rapid spread and belief in misinformation.

During the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, there were substantial political promises made about the construction of thirteen Type 26 Frigates on the Clyde.

These plans, however, underwent changes post-referendum, evolving into a commitment for eight Type 26 Frigates at Govan and five Type 31 frigates at Rosyth.


This article is the opinion of the author and not necessarily that of the UK Defence Journal. If you would like to submit your own article on this topic or any other, please see our submission guidelines


Despite this increase in total ship numbers and distribution across two yards, sentiment in some corners, as seen in responses to the aforementioned tweet, remains largely skeptical and cynical. Responses ranged from accusations of repeat false promises to outright disbelief in any shipbuilding activities. This reaction underscores a significant gap between perception and reality, with many still asserting that no ships have been built or ordered.

Analysis of Some Tweets

The majority of people I responded to with a polite correction or nudge towards the situation responded in the same way, abuse and blocking. Here are some of the most common tweets.

Gavin Williamson’s Tweet: “Well that’s unusual, story about shipbuilding for RN on Clyde traditionally only rolled out during Independence Referendum. How can headline be a question?”

Why It’s Wrong: This view fails to recognise that shipbuilding discussions and contracts can occur independently of political events, and there has been tangible progress in shipbuilding irrespective of the referendum.


Annie’s Doubt: “13 frigates to be built on Clyde yards was one of the many promises/lies in the run up to the independence referendum.”

Why It’s Wrong: While the original plan did undergo changes, it wasn’t abandoned or proven to be a lie; instead, it evolved with more ships being planned than originally promised.


The Fly Fifer’s Cynicism: “Aye, like we’ve forgotten 2014 already. Awa raffle yersels.”

Why It’s Wrong: This cynicism overlooks the fact that the shipbuilding promises have been partially fulfilled and even expanded, contrary to the belief that they were entirely forgotten or ignored.


Common of Houses’ Sarcasm: “The promise of more ships comes round earlier every year.”

Why It’s Wrong: This comment suggests a recurring empty promise, but in reality, the shipbuilding industry in Scotland has seen significant orders and developments post-2014.


Bobbie B’s Dismissal: “More Yoon lies. 2014 rerun.”

Why It’s Wrong: This outright dismissal ignores the concrete steps taken in shipbuilding post-2014, including the ordering and construction of various types of ships.


🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Micheil McYES2INDY🇪🇺: “Oh is an election looming. Heard this pish already. Change the record please.”

Why It’s Wrong: Associating shipbuilding news solely with elections disregards the ongoing shipbuilding activities that have been happening outside the electoral cycle.


Child of Alba 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 💙: “Here we go again. Remember this old chestnut back in 2014? They promised us a raft of ships which never materialised.”

Why It’s Wrong: This claim is factually incorrect, as several ships have been built and more are in the process of being constructed, indicating fulfillment beyond the initial promise.


Dreich Outdoors: “They promised 13 frigates and a frigate factory ….. then it was reduced to 8 frigates…. then they ordered 3 and promised another 5.”

Why It’s Wrong: While the numbers did change, the overall outcome was an increase in the total number of ships, not a reduction, and this included additional ship types and construction at two yards instead of one.


scotlands Future: “Yeah again. Same old same old. The union promised X number of ships and have never ever supplied those orders as promised.”

Why It’s Wrong: This statement is incorrect as the orders for ships have been not only supplied but expanded, with various types of ships being built or planned in Scottish yards.


Mental Health Expert’s Take: Why Some Folk Are Denying the Truth in the Shipbuilding Row

When I reached out to a friend who is currently training to be a psychologist for their perspective on the Scottish shipbuilding debate, they were happy to offer me a comment on why this happens.

“As someone who’s spent a fair bit of time understanding how people think and feel, the reactions to the shipbuilding updates in Scotland are really telling. It’s like a classic case of what happens when folks’ beliefs, especially about something as close to the heart as national identity, come up against new info that doesn’t quite match up. First off, there’s a lot of cognitive dissonance going on. This is what happens when you come across something that’s at odds with what you’ve always believed. Say, you’ve always thought that none of those shipbuilding promises from 2014 were kept. Then, suddenly, you’re hearing that not only were some of these promises kept, but they actually went above and beyond. That’s going to throw you for a loop, isn’t it? It’s easier to just stick your fingers in your ears and go ‘la la la, I can’t hear you’ than to rethink your whole stance.

Then there’s confirmation bias. We’ve all got a bit of this, haven’t we? It’s like when you pick and choose bits of info that back up what you already believe and ignore the rest. In the shipbuilding debate, it’s pretty clear in the way some folk are just brushing off any positive news about the shipbuilding. Emotions are a big part of this too. For a lot of people, their views on shipbuilding are all tangled up with deeper feelings about independence and whether they can trust the government. So, challenging these beliefs can feel like you’re having a go at them personally, and that gets people’s backs up.”

This situation presents a complex challenge. How do we bridge the gap between reality and perception, especially in an age where social media significantly influences public opinion? If I knew, I’d try.

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George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. He also previously worked for the NHS. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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OldBloke
OldBloke
17 days ago

Denial is nothing new and certainly not a phenomenon of the ‘twitterverse’:

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/matthew_henry_189365

(Matthew Henry, 1662-1714 – which ironically takes him into the Union period.)

Most conspiracy theorists I’ve met don’t vote, but I suppose they can influence people who do. Otherwise, don’t dignify their bleats with a response!

AlexS
AlexS
17 days ago

If the Union lives on building ships it is an unhealthy one.

Jonathan
Jonathan
14 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

Not a bad point, but I think most people that believe in the union do so for other reasons. But at present it is unhealthy, we can only hope that a Labour administration repairs some of the damage.

Bringer of facts
Bringer of facts
17 days ago

Some people just need to grow up a bit and realise that life does not revolve around their world view and there will always be differences of opinion.

Personally, I think social media in all its forms does more harm than good.

Last edited 17 days ago by Bringer of facts
Jon
Jon
16 days ago

Social media certainly shows the stupidity and bigotry that has always been there. I suppose it also emboldens people who have found others like-minded, but I wonder how much net harm it does. I look back at some of the nonsense I learned at school and I’m of the opinion misinformation will reach us one way or another: from parents, siblings, friends, pastors, teachers, books, politicians, TV, etc, etc. If society is ignorant, that ignorance will pervade somehow. The question for me is are we more keen to act on our ignorance because we think we understand, following information picked… Read more »

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
16 days ago

I think what Social media does is allow people to display and share their ignorance with others. We didn’t know previously that that guy in the cottage thought the Moon was made from Toenails, but now he can tell us that and try to convince others. It doesn’t change people’s inner opinions but it makes them matter more.

Jonathan
Jonathan
14 days ago
Reply to  SailorBoy

Yes that guy is so ill informed…everyone knows the moon is made of cheese..honestly.

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
14 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I would have said cheese but that’s not a conspiracy theory, it’s an actual conspiracy that physicists are trying to trick us into not eating the moon so they can build a space laser to wipe out humanity

Jonathan
Jonathan
14 days ago

You should have seen navy outlook piece around the ships patrolling the Baltic…OMG the tin hat brigade came out…it went from claiming the US blew up various bits of infrastructure to finally someone saying the covid pandemic was a lie and never happened ( what the actual…I lost my sh%t a bit with that one seeing as I worked through it and had relatives die).

SailorBoy
SailorBoy
14 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Oh I saw that, the “USA blows up own pipe” lot came out of the woodwork, even though it isn’t a US pipe, and started ranting about cyber attacks.
Great entertainment value

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
14 days ago

Yup, and coupled with a readiness to come to different conclusion or interpretation if facts and circumstances change. That is the way of evolution, and why we have outlived the Neanderthals.

David Lloyd
David Lloyd
17 days ago

I would like to know the truth of what Alex Salmon was doing in Russia after moved there when he was aquitted in his court case. I’ve heard that he spent his time working for the Russian tv channel RT, producing anti-British pro-independence programs

MattW
MattW
17 days ago

Like a crippled frigate, they know they are sunk !

Matt C
Matt C
17 days ago

Simple: our society doesn’t punish what is basically lying. So there are no downsides and all the upsides to doing it.

Mark B
Mark B
17 days ago

Would Labour be supportive of an independent Scotland thus making way for the prospect of all ships being built in England, Wales & NI?

Marked
Marked
15 days ago
Reply to  Mark B

Bring it on. Spread the work around people who appreciate it.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
16 days ago

“ Dreich Outdoors: “They promised 13 frigates and a frigate factory ….. then it was reduced to 8 frigates…. then they ordered 3 and promised another 5.””

They (whoever they are) delivered two frigate factories that can build four frigates at the same time.

So I smell a promise exceeded?

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah
15 days ago

You are not supposed to notice that. Common sense and Scottish nationalist are four words that do not belong together.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
15 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

Sorry I’ll beer that in mind in future…..

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
14 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

Common sense and blinkered opinion along with a wilful refusal to consider all side of an argument and actual facts (not fake news) do not belong together.

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah
14 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

What “ fake” news ?

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
13 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

All the out of context, rumours, partially read statements, plainly false information. Particularly peope responding to things they imagine or misinterpret and take as gospel. Conspiracy theories fall into these categories too.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
15 days ago

Hi SB. I actually don’t think BAe would see it that way 🥴 In fact it could be some of their workforce having a pop about not having all 13 for themselves. And it does really depend on how you interpret it. 13 Frigates were promised and 13 are being built or on order. So Promise sort of kept. 8 of these are part of the original 13 T26’s which were the ones in p,an in 2014. 5 are the cheaper T31 GP Frigates. So yes but the overall value of the builds of the 13 is less. What everyone… Read more »

Klonkie
Klonkie
14 days ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

so ABC R, are you thinking 19 in total (with the 6 type 45s)?

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
12 days ago
Reply to  Klonkie

Hi Sorry For not replying sooner but for some reason I’m not getting notifications when someone reply’s to me 🤷🏻 At present yes we have 13 ships ordered and in the build plan, plus the 6 T45’s. And I’m not counting on any increase to that in the short term, despite the NSBS. And that’s because I don’t count Politicians promises till they actually sign a binding contract, written in Treasury blood and with eye watering cancellation clauses. It’s going to be an interesting 2/3 years to see what happens next. There are 5 T32’s and 6 T83’s in the… Read more »

Klonkie
Klonkie
11 days ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

All good Mate. Recently I had also had the same issues- ghost in the machine I reckon. I think your arithmetic is spot on, I’d be stunned if T32 goes ahed and we recover beyond 19 ships.

Thanks for nothing 2010 SDR!

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
16 days ago

All that can be done is offer corrections and substantiated facts, even if it is repetitive. People cannot be forced to think differently, but let them come to accept changes in data and information. That is called hindsight and people need to accept that changing their minds when presented with new information is perfecty normal and rational. It is irrational to dismiss things just because they don’t agree with previously held opinions. That is how evolution and improvements work!

Last edited 16 days ago by Nick Cole
lonpfrb
lonpfrb
14 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Nick, good points. I find that priority matters too. For example the engineering data may say one thing but the commercial another which is given priority i.e. short term profit now over long term lifecycle costs.

My 10¢ is below for your entertainment, hopefully…

Ian
Ian
15 days ago

I wonder what proportion of the population actively engage with social media. I generally don’t- because it appears to be mostly a collection of echo chambers for fantasists with no interest in facts. Meanwhile, rational people have better things to do. In that case it is a mistake to assume that prevailing social media sentiment is indicative of broader public opinion, and I suspect the repeated failure of politicians and polling bodies to accurately gauge public sentiment on various issues is a consequence of that mistake. Most people have opinions about things, but most people don’t feel the need to… Read more »

lonpfrb
lonpfrb
14 days ago
Reply to  Ian

Hi Ian,

I’m with you on “rational people have better things to do”. So much so that keeping up with credible sources is a full time job. Sorry if that’s Confirmation Bias!

My 10¢ is below for your entertainment, hopefully…

IKnowNothing
IKnowNothing
15 days ago

Nicely written commentary by a trainee, they have clearly read their Kahneman (or at least didn’t fall asleep during the lecture 🙂 ). In the context of debates around Scottish identity and nationality, I would suggest that models which are self-oriented and especially cognitively led are useful but have their limitations. There is scope to think also about systemic factors (households and communities of views) as well as broader cultural representations as well. Its also necessary to think about the impact of changing technologies and their impact on the ease with which information exchange can take place without challenge, and… Read more »

lonpfrb
lonpfrb
14 days ago
Reply to  IKnowNothing

Thanks. That was interesting.

My 10¢ is below for your entertainment, hopefully…

Last edited 14 days ago by lonpfrb
Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah
15 days ago

As a Scotsman and political observer , the shipbuilding issue is a very sore point for the Nationalist. They still proclaim their beliefs and that is their right but they will belittle anything that shows the strength of the union.
They would be the first to scream and shout if as much as a rowing boat was ordered by the MoD south of the border.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
15 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

I am also a Scot born and bred in Galloway but raised and live in Derby. It shames me to say this but they are just plain Bigots and nothing will change their minds.
Oh and in memory of both my Grannies (1 Hannay & 1 Hannah).
Per Ardua ad Alta 😉

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah
15 days ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

They are entitled to their opinion, that is democracy but I will dance a jig butt naked the day the SNP are booted out.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
14 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

That’ll be interesting (or not) to see, but we’ll be waiting a long time!

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
14 days ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Yes peope who have one usually un-informed opinion are considered bigots. It is only the ability to analyse and acknowledge both sides of an argument that leads to betterment. Fixed views never produce the best outcome.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
14 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

Don’t make asserted statements based on an opinion! Nobody but nobody despite using the cliche ever substantiates ‘the strength of the union’ and neither do they ever consider or think about making things better! Your last sentence is meaningless and actually wrong, though it may support a predefined wishful opinion and is not at all true. It is necessary in a balanced and informed debate to consider and recognise the flaws (from both sides) in any comparison. Working from a stance that the grass is always greener on our side of the fence ignores contrary evidence, and the possibility that… Read more »

Marked
Marked
15 days ago

How many ships do these jocks think an independent Scotland would be building? They’d be lucky to get one or two at most. Whilst the rest of the UK’s rubs its hands in glee at the prospect of major work coming it’s way.

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah
15 days ago
Reply to  Marked

Honestly, they think nothing will change and an independent Scotland will still build warships for the Royal navy, their justification for this is that Nicola Sturgeon said so.
To any Scot with a brain, NONE. The MoD have stated it and it is in black and white in MOD procurement rules. Foreign powers do not build Royal Navy warships..

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
14 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

No they don’t! Who ever said the Navy would? It is not just the Royal Navy procuring ships. Fact check before repeating innuendo, false rumour and fake news. The people promoting fake news are taking everyone else for fools!

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah
14 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

I suggest you write something sensible. !!
And care to tell me what country has placed an order with BAE for a warship and what fake news I have stated?

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
13 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

I suggest you read something sensible too, and think about it. Nobody has ever said or inferred that the Navy would buy warships from a foreign country, new or old. That is the fake news! What was said was that shipbuilding woudl continue. Some foolish peopke conflate ships with nothing other than warships! And in any event Royal Navy are not the only country with warships and many countrires buy them in anyway. And an independent Scotland would be buulding its own. The fake news is someone spreading false information either maliciously or inadvertently based on someone failing to read… Read more »

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah
13 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

I suggest you drop your usual Nats word salad and answer my question.
If you are refering to other shipbuilding , are you refering to two Ferries currently under “ construction” , how is that going?

The fact remains if and it currently is a big IF should Scotland becomes independent, all RN warship building on the Clyde and the Forth will go south of the border.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
13 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

I suggest you read and use your brain. Where were the aircraft carriers built? Where are the new frigates being built? Comparing one small yard trying to build two ferries and ignre all the other cost fiascos elsewhere in UK? What about all the other ships that get built in Scotland. And don’t be so ridiculous to start calling names. Think about the shenanigans in Westminster before calling anyone else out! Nothing to do with IFs. Apart from anything else those 2 ferries were done on a design and build basis and when the specifications get moved during that time… Read more »

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah
13 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

I suggest you follow your own advice instead of playing nationalist games. The topic of the articles was about people ( mainly nationalist) deliberately distorting naval shipbuilding in Scotland. I simply pointed out and you have furiously word saladed that should independence ever occur that naval ship building for the RN would end north of the boarder despite what the SNP claim without foundation. I further went on to say why it would end. Technically the aircraft carriers were assembled in Scotland. The individual module were manufactured all over Britain and transported by barge to Rosyth. Which is the only… Read more »

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah
13 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Care to name any non military vessel of a serious size other than the two ferries currently or in recent years built in Scotland?
And I didn’t sling any names. I called you a nationalist. I do not consider that insulting, just a statement of your political position.

Follow your own advice!!

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
12 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

If you take your blinkers off you may well appreciate a more rounded understanding! I am not calling you anything. If you read I have merely outlined various factors and at no time have pursued any political direction. The difficulty with the unionist arguments is that they are just as polarised and misleading as the other side. The facts are that ships are built in Scotland and that has not and will not change. Serious sized ships by your thinking clearly excludes frigates and destroyers! Currently under very successful construction and being delivered. That is the elephant in the room… Read more »

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah
12 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Considering you started off by attacking my post that all RN warship construction would end post independence ( should it ever happen) , you have gone fully circle. You then went on to claim other non military ship building was going on in Scotland ( other than the ferries ) I asked you to name them. So far you haven’t. Sadly Turkey are due to construct two ferries , for considerably less money before either the Glen Sannox or her sister even move one passenger. The Nationalist government recently refused to provide Fergusion’s with the necessary capital investment so they… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
11 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

Consider first that I did NOT attack your comment. Second, Ferguson has been supplied with lots of finance. I am not a naval architect (neither presumably are you, and also both of us are not presumably privy to business contracts and details so your question which may be of interest is irrelevant, and neither of us can give informed advice or knowledge of the state of play at such a specific level. There are yards building ships and I do not recall saying anything about current contracts which may or may not be in place. Your problem is that you… Read more »

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah
11 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

I am very happy for you.

Bye!!

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah
11 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

My only “assertions” was
1) post Indy , all RN warship construction in Scotland will cease. That is a fact backed up by MoD policy.
Fortunately Indy is a very remote possibility .

You can argue black is white and play your word salad games all you like.
You claim commercial ship building is still happening in Scotland other than the two “ never” ferries. But you can’t “ recall” very convenient perhaps a goggle search might help!!

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
11 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

I suggest you look. your point 1) has never been denied and it is the only thing that started this whole chain off. People make such a statement as though it is some newly found profound insight and stating the obvious by using it to infer that someone had stated that RN would continue building ships in an independent Scotland. My point is that yards exist, can and do build ships and just because RN were to cease to be a customer, more commercial work would be undertaken in their place. Not pursued at the moment because of UK economic… Read more »

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah
11 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

This “ chain” was sparked by you and your problem with a simple fact you prefer to hide. Like all Nationalist.
myth including pension, warship building and cross border trade to name several

I will leave you to fight with yourself.
I have better things to do than argue with a certain type of person.

TtFN I expect we will talk again when I point out another uncomfortable truth!!

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
11 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

I wasn’t hiding anything. It was your absolutely sure, statements about things that have yet to happen or may never happen. Wishful thinking is not certainty. You obviously have never looked at any statements just blind belief (wishful thinking) cognitive dissonance that prevents you thinking straight, listening or observing. Who said anything abut nationlism? What is so different about British nationalism and Scottish nationalism anyway? Cross border trade, as in Northern Ireland? Pensions what myth? And I repeat, NOBODY said RN would continue to procure warships from any independent country. Those are the myths you peddle. You are the one… Read more »

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah
11 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Have a very nice Christmas !!!!

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
15 days ago
Reply to  Marked

They would get nothing due to the rules RN Warships are built in the U.K and Labour say they want to restrict all future RFA builds as well. But Scotland would gain a proportion of UK military assets but no Submarines as they are Nuclear powered and covered by NPT. So they get 2/3 frigates and some other smaller ships. Plus their own proportion of the U.K National debt. I’d bet BAe, Babcock and HMNB Clyde would all wrap up PDQ. Remove their privately owned property southwards and shut the yards as fast as they could. And if I were… Read more »

Jacko
Jacko
15 days ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

On top of that any Scot serving in the Armed Services would NOT be transferred to any Scottish defence force against their will!

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
14 days ago
Reply to  Jacko

You are probably almost certainly right, but what is the relevance of stating the obvious? Who said they would? Fake news at work!

Jacko
Jacko
14 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Well if you had of read the SNP claims on MOD equipment during the Scottish Indy referendum they wanted the Scottish regts and equipment transferred to them! (ships,aircraft as well) If you care to read that go to The Pin striped line and go back on his posts.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
13 days ago
Reply to  Jacko

If you had read as well, all of it, then perhaps you would see where you are wrong. Scotland has already paid for and contributed to all the resources, and still does. As in any divorce or break up each side is entitled to its share. Clearly the people involved will always have a choice, but the entities themselves would more or less remain. Nobody, nobody, nobody has said people would be forced to reman where they do not wish to be. If you read the book Scotland’s Future, Scotland the Brief, and all the other papers you will see… Read more »

Jacko
Jacko
13 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Not really what I was saying! The snp wanted to claim Scottish regts and personnel as part of their share of commitments.All I was saying is that no serving member of the armed services would be forcibly transferred to any SDF despite the regts being transferred.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
12 days ago
Reply to  Jacko

And did I disagree with that statement – no! Scotland contributed (we pay taxes to HM Treasury too) to the structures and resources. So those resources are liable to be transferred and re-arranged on a pro-rata basis (as with any break up, divorce or similar). Nobody said any member of the armed forces would be forcibly kept in Scotland against their wishes. That is something wrong that you have introduced. Aside from anything else it would be contrary to Employment Law.

Jon
Jon
13 days ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Subs are not absolutely covered by NPT, hence AUKUS. Not that the SNP would take them. (Ugh, nuclear, nasty stuff.)

They’d get nothing, because they’d have to pay for the divorce. Hundreds of billions just to move Faslane/Coulport, nevermind everything else.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
12 days ago
Reply to  Jon

Jon I was born and bred in Scotland, but raised and spent most of my working life (from apprentice onwards) at a fairly well known large UK engineering company. I also spent 2 or 3 years up in Thurso working nearby ! A few facts based on 42 years of experience both here and in the US. All UK and US Nuclear Submarines use HEU as a fuel in their reactor cores, due to that they absolutely do need to conform to the NPT. HEU is Highly Enriched Uranium in other words its Nuclear Bomb Grade. Which is why the… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
13 days ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

BAe is a private company with interests all over the place, it just Scotland. Same as Babcock. HMNB would of course shut down, as would RN Faslane and parts of Coulport. Doesn’t at all mean yards woould shut down. We ALL KNOW that RN wouldn’t build their warships in Scotland in the event of independence. That is well known so don’t make silly pronouncements as though it is brand new news! NOBODY said RN would still contract for ships after Independence. In the meantime Scotland isn’t so we carry on as we are.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
11 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

But the facilities to do so are owned by private companies which will just shut down the Shipyards without any orders. If those orders are placed in the rest of GB then they will move their machinery, that’s what happens when a yard shuts down. That’s not to say it is impossible to secure fresh work for those yards but it would rely on a completely different industrial strategy. Basically subsidies and due to Tariffs and unfair competition rules that means many potential customers are excluded (US, Canada, EU etc). Other than S Korea and China nearly every other country… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
11 days ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Has anyone said the opposite. A commercial yard operates on a business basis. Current industrial strategy is dictated by a UK government (reserved function) so extrapolating from that position is wholly incorrect as in the event of Independence taht would all change. The biggest mistake people make is that the current strategies and policies would remain unchanged. Clearly they would change but until such time as they do it is not possible to predict ahead. Shipbuilding expertise and design remains as they are not subject to political policies, particularly the historic antipathy of the UK ‘Establishment’ to anything involving ‘working… Read more »

lonpfrb
lonpfrb
15 days ago

I don’t know about Scottish ship building so I will comment about another scenario where the gap between reality and perception, enabled by social media and cognitive dissonance is a national security problem for many countries including the UK. The 45th President of the United States has 91 indictments going to trial in three States and federal Court in D.C. too, both civil and criminal. In the US it’s normal that some matters are dealt with in civil court even though they would seem to be crimes, for example Fraud. However there is a different standard of evidence either on… Read more »

Ian
Ian
14 days ago
Reply to  lonpfrb

All very disturbing. I do think he can differentiate court proceedings from talking to his base just fine- he simply chooses not to because it suits him.

lonpfrb
lonpfrb
14 days ago
Reply to  Ian

His lawyers have filed a motion to stay trial because Presidents are so special that they can’t be held accountable for their criminal acts, in his deluded fantasy of acceptable behavior. Special Council Jack Scott has both appealed his BS motion to stay and also escalated to Supreme Court on an urgent exceptional basis to avoid his standard practice for delay. Thus the trial schedule should stay on track and his delusion be swiftly punctured as the hot air that it is. Trial outcome before the next election [Nov ’24] is required for an informed decision by voters. Nobody is… Read more »

Jon
Jon
13 days ago
Reply to  lonpfrb

Presidents are legally special and sovereign immunity is a thing. But it isn’t a universal get out of jail free card, and he isn’t the President.

lonpfrb
lonpfrb
13 days ago
Reply to  Jon

However the Judges have decided that performing Presidential duties is distinct from action as a candidate. This is both logical and correct in that his electoral fraud charges are to be tried and he will be accountable to We The People for his Big Lie of 2020 election fraud. Specifically he alleged corrupt election results where there is no evidence of that except the fake electors conspiracy that he attempted to perpetrate. Trial has already shown that election workers were not corrupt and were defamed by co-conspirators including Rudy Giuliani. So the old repeat a lie until the gullible accept… Read more »

Tams
Tams
15 days ago

From supporters of a government that can’t even acquire a single new working domestically built ferry.

I do worry about some of our Scottish brethren sometimes.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
14 days ago
Reply to  Tams

Actually wrong. There are two cutting edge, if not experimental, ships misled by a procurement process and manufacturer promises. There are other working and workable ferries. Who built the latest aircraft carriers, the new frigates and destroyers? Who built HS2? PPE contracts, defence procurement (suffering from exactly the same issues as two measly ferries). I do worry about the analytical capabilities of some people sometimes.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
11 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

I’m kind of going to agree with you, iis it Cutting edge ? oh hell yes, LNG/Diesel is a massive step forwards. Is it experimental ? No it’s been around a while and there are a couple of hundred out there now, but in terms of numbers the preferred fuel is LPG / Diesel rather than LNG. That’s because of availability (costs) and how it has to be stored in Cryogenic Tanks and under far higher pressure than LPG. But it’s all pretty immaterial because some Muppet forgot to order some of the parts to make it work and the… Read more »

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
11 days ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Cutting edge as in they haven’t done it before. Interesting concept of course. Pity about the design and build aspect though. Always means extra costs, MoD have a history of this. Too many cooks comes into it. And as for additional stair cases! How on earth that could be missed is anyine’s guess.

Mike Barrett
Mike Barrett
14 days ago

If Scotland gains independence, they would lose all MOD shipbuilding. The majority would be moved to England and a small amount to Northern Ireland and Wales. I suppose Scotland won’t mind, they are great at building ferries. Just 10 years later and they have two half finished ones. So that will keep them going for another 10 years!

Last edited 14 days ago by Mike Barrett
Nick Cole
Nick Cole
14 days ago
Reply to  Mike Barrett

Who said MoD wouldn’t move their procurement elsewhere? Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales, HMS Glasgow and many others are built in England, Wales and NI were and are they?

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
12 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

T45 and the QE were Mega Block builds some of those blocks were built and outfitted in Portsmouth, Aplledore, A&P on the Tyne, BAe at Govan and some small bits in Rosyth.
But assembled and final fit out, on the Clyde and Rosyth respectively.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
11 days ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Yes. Actually quite a lot of build was undertaken at Rosyth alongside the assembly. Which means that given that is where the assembly and dry-dock was situated it would easily have been possible to do all the work there, though it would have ended up being a lot longer to do so. UK’s capacity is spread across numerous yards.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
11 days ago
Reply to  Nick Cole

Have you actually seen the plans of what was built where ? All of the pre outfitted hull Mega Blocks, flight deck and superstructure were pre built elsewhere. Only the Sponsons were built at Rosyth. Look up the Photos of them being shifted by barge, pretty impressive.

Nick Cole
Nick Cole
11 days ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Of course. But that was so that work could be spread around. It could all of been done at Rosyth, but not as quickly. If the integration and final fit out could have been done there all the rest of it could have as well, especially using traditional open-air methods.

Last edited 11 days ago by Nick Cole
Barry Larking
Barry Larking
12 days ago

Try as one may, getting anyone anywhere to face facts they will not is a thankless task. Objectively, those ships are coming finally along. Indeed the scepticism should be why has it taken so long?

Well done George and here’s to more good news for the builders, Royal Navy and Union in 2024.

Mike
Mike
8 days ago

What you have to remember is these people who complain are forgetting that we are still placing all our eggs in the Scottish basket and what needs to happen is the need to regenerate ship building throughout the UK.

Stc
Stc
5 days ago

Certainly most of these comments come from Alba or SNP supporters most who are brain cell challenged and blinkered. What about that SNP promise to abolish that “abominable Tory poll tax,” modified in the last election to all under 22year olds. Diddly squat so far from the rulers of the highest taxed member of the Union. How many of those Scot kids got free computers and bikes ? Where are those ferries ? It’s a wonder the SNP have not promised the islanders free wet suits and flippers!

The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
3 days ago

Aye this problem encompasses much much more than just ship building or in this case frigate building . It’s ironic the issue being pointed out with this subject goes the other way also with regards anything there is an ‘official” narrative which is the only game in town. People should have the right to question and challenge anything I’m of the opinion the truth should always stand up to mis dis mal information and general shite. Alas we now live in a post truth society where only the “official” ministry of truth line is acceptable with questions and debate not… Read more »