British F-35Bs are currently only certified to carry relatively few weapon types, but that’s set to change with future upgrades.

According to Jeremy Quin, Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, the following systems are currently operated and planned.

“Currently the UK F-35B Lightning is cleared to employ the Paveway IV Precision Guided Munition, the Advanced Medium Range Air to Air Missile (AMRAAM) and the Advanced Short Range Air to Air Missile (ASRAAM).

Future Capability uplifts will introduce the Spear Capability 3 Air to Surface weapon and the Meteor Air to Air Missile.”

However, as I reported previously, British F-35B jets were to be equipped with Meteor missiles by the ‘middle of this decade’, but this has slipped to 2027. The Ministry of Defence previously published its tenth annual summary of the defence equipment plan. According to a statement:

“Building on the 2020 summary, it sets out our plans for the next 10 years to deliver and support the equipment our armed forces need to do the jobs we ask of them.”

The document contains a great deal of technical information about the projects and the management/funding side of them and you can read that for yourself here but below I’ll try and present the most pertinent information relating to the project in question.

Meteor on F-35B – Equipment Background

The project is described as follows:

“Meteor is a beyond visual range air-to-air missile featuring active radar guidance and exceptional longrange performance. Developed by a 6- nation partnership, it is currently in service on Typhoon and will undergo modification to allow internal carriage on Lightning II.”

In Year Progress Update

“Meteor was assigned a place in the Followon Development Programme by the F-35 Joint Programme Office and contracts were awarded to Lockheed Martin in the early summer. However, entry into service is not anticipated to be until 2027 and there is a possibility that integration pressures in the programme may incur further delays because of challenges in the wider F-35 programme.”

You can read the report here.

What was the original plan?

British F-35B jets were to be equipped with Meteor missiles by the ‘middle of this decade’ originally. The information came to light in a response to a written question submitted in the House of Commons.

Mark Francois, Member of Parliament for Rayleigh and Wickford, asked:

“To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what his timetable is for the Meteor air-to-air missile to achieve initial operating capability on the F-35 aircraft.”

Jeremy Quin, Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence, responded:

“Initial development work for Meteor integration has progressed well. The Lightning Delivery Team within Defence Equipment and Supply (DE&S), through F-35 Joint Program Office has signed a contract to integrate Meteor in the middle of the decade.”

Previously we reported that a team of BAE Systems, Lockheed Martin and MBDA engineers are enhancing the capability of the UK’s fleet of F-35 Lightning aircraft by commencing work on the integration of next generation weapons.

“BAE Systems has received an initial funding award from Lockheed Martin, the prime contractor on the F-35 programme, to start integration efforts for MBDA’s Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile and SPEAR precision surface attack missile. Under this initial package of work BAE Systems and Lockheed Martin will also complete further integration work with MBDA on ASRAAM and with Raytheon on Paveway IV, initially integrated in support of delivering Initial Operating Capability for the UK.”

Cliff Waldwyn, Head of Combat Air, Group Business Development of MBDA, said:

“This is a significant milestone for the UK Combat Air’s capability. This initial package of work officially commences the integration of Meteor and SPEAR and will enhance the operational capability of the UK’s Lightning Force in the future; it is also a positive step for the wider F-35 enterprise as it adds additional capability choice for international customers. MBDA’s integration team have worked well with our BAE Systems and Lockheed Martin colleagues and we plan to build on this excellent foundation into the future on this follow-on modernisation work.”

Meteor is a ‘Beyond Visual Range Air-to-Air Missile’ system developed by MBDA. The Meteor programme sees the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Sweden working together to provide access to technology and expertise across those nations.

You can read more about the missile here.

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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132 COMMENTS

    • I’m hoping for Penny, she’s a potentially good PM with a personal interest in defence and a sharp brain.

    • I will wait and see when they get into office to see what they actually do.
      You can’t do tax cuts, increase budgets and cut the deficit at the same time.

      • The theory is you reduce tax rates which allows growth which increases tax receipts. Another motivation to cut corporation tax is to get companies to report profit in the UK and not other counties.

        Example; You build in the UK but buy some parts from one of you’re factories in another country. In theory the parts from the other country could be sold to the UK plant for almost no profit because the corporation tax in that country is high so selling for no profit means there’s no corporation tax. When the final item is sold it makes more profit as all its parts cost less. So you’ve shifted you’re tax bill from a high tax country to a lower tax country. This is why there’s calls for a global rate of corporation tax.

        Ireland cut taxes to 12.5% and that’s why Google and Apple have setup there and book most of there global revenue through Ireland.

        • Yes corporate tax can be an issue the basic truth your never going to win against multi nationals with reducing corporation taxes to the bone, as there is aways a nation that will cut it further than you it’s the same with deregulation, The effective slave labour markets of the east ( work For pittance or die) will always be able to deregulate more than a western nation. So the way to encourage investment and business tax revenue is actually creating A better business environment, with good infrastructure ( travel, comms,tec, health, education) and direct access to markets without tariff. I would be more focused on the enablers as well as removing tax’s which hit small and meduim business as well as invest directly in innovation and give tax breaks to investment, such as looking at business rates which is the killer of small and medium business ( the sort that always pay their corporation tax in this county).

          As for cutting personal tax at present I don’t think that will work at all. The simple truth is the whole world is heading into a period of massive stagnation and inflation, which means revenues are not likely to go up though growth even if you drop all tax burdens, instead dropping tax’s for everyone will just fuel inflation by giving the better paid more money to spend. Also inflation will impact on the actual cost of governing the country so the governed needs to secure what revenues it can, so for instance health care inflation is aways around 4% above baseline inflation, so costs for the NHS just to keep it afloat will soar over the next few years ( with inflation at 10%, your going to need a budget increase of around 14% a year just to keep health in its present state of imminent catastrophic failure), you will see similar inflationary pressures for defence ect. So cutting taxes will mean not doing something. This when the poorest will need increased support just to heat their houses and buy food.

          To be honest a pandemic, major European war, world food and fuel crisis, inflation, stagnation are going to lead to pain not felt since the Great Depression and there is no way to tax cut our way out. Personally I think the better off are going to need to take a hit ( that is me) so the government can keep doing its job and stop the poor from not eating or heating their homes as well as keep health and social care on track and defend the nation.

          • Didn’t say I agreed with it just highlighted the theory and pointed to an example. And yes it’s not ghe only way to encourage businesses. There also plenty of places that had zero business tax that doesn’t have businesses flocking there. But push tax to high.and no matter how good your infrastructure etc is you’ll see recept of tax drop.

          • However more importantly news kust out Japan and UK could completely merge their 6th gen fighter programs.

        • Well we will see what happens when they get into office. Any bets on if the new leader will last until an election?

          If a global agreement could be reached on corporation tax that would be a massive step forward.
          With global companies, global thinking is needed. Imagine if half of the global corporation tax take from the world was then spread throughout the world. Dreaming I know. To many folks can’t spend it wisely.

          Ireland has the advantage of being English speaking, being closest part of Europe to USA, being in the eu and being next to the U.K. perhaps also it’s regulations aren’t quite so watertight as bigger countries. ( smaller country, smaller government depts, less oversight?). That is a guess on my part.

          • The Tories will need to select some one super clean after Boris. Labour didn’t going massively in the by elections so there was more of a case of loosing votes through protest than Labour gains through great leadership and policy.

            Problem is with a global tax we nay loose. We’re not as productive as our peers and as the railways are finding is hard to make important improvements. By the time we build hs2 Frances high speed railway will be 1/2 a century old. So with equal corporate tax would the next Elin Musk setup shop here. Probably not.

      • Exactly all claims of substantive tax cuts in the short term would only demonstrate the hypocrisy of a decade long insistence that lowering borrowings was the over whelming priority. Until we get through this existential threat on various fronts we can’t think of such luxuries beyond a few tweaks if we intend to spend on defence, other priorities and provide for what is going to be a hammer blow to the poor and struggling come winter and even those who had been moderately comfortable.

        I understand the need to boost the economy but this has been a long term failure that won’t be overcome in a year or so and any improvement in the unlikely event it happens short term would not feed into benefits to the Country till after the immediate events, so funds to support focused use need to be kept available esp if this Govt actually wants to survive with a chance of winning the next election when likely it will want to offer at least some semblance of tax cuts.

      • You can but you have to be willing to be radical and medium/long term and not panic when a “crisis” hits.

        • I think the problem we tend to have is knowing the different between not acting at all and not panicking or two much panic resulting in no action…panic is fine as long as you act. Not panicking and not acting when the the train is heading strait for your head is the hight of madness. When faced with catastrophe panic and then do something about it…it’s how the human race survived.

          • Basically panic is the great motivator….feel the panic and do. Anyone who does not panic in a crisis tends to not react in a timely way or completely miss understands the level of threat or risk and fucks up….So panic is not the problem it’s fine….I’ve spent half my professional life panicking it’s all about harnessing the panic into action.The other side of the no panic brigade are those who let panic overwhelm and prevent action…so trust the person who panics in a positive reactive way.

  2. Given F35 already has AMRAAM, I’m not so worried about Meteor. But with the lack of options to strike surface targets from standoff ranges, when will SPEAR3 be available to the carrier group?

    • My thinking is the same. I wasn’t aware we had AMRAAM cleared so that is better news than I thought. That said the glacial progress is bizarre.

      • Well as a prime American weapon why would it not? From our point of view it’s good to see ASRAAM is qualified being a uk orientated weapon and one I believe now that no longer has US components that can prevent foreign sales?

        • At present it is legacy Asraam only.
          Asraam Block VI (also known as CSP) will be integrated as part of the Block IV improvements by 2027. This is the new Asraam with zero US content.

        • I dont like to say this but the US are good at gaming these things. Meaning delay delay others options until they catch up. Meteor and Spear as examples.

    • Agreed though I’m not sure SPEAR 3 is the answer as it’s too short ranged. Proper stand off land attack and and anti-ship missiles are required on at least a portion of the F35 fleet (JSM?).

        • Yeah it will be around that. With storm shadow and it’s replacement filling the longer range needs.

        • Must admit 100 miles is very much a min range these days for ‘ safe’ operation certainly will be at best by the end of the decade, the aircraft will need to fully exploit its stealth to survive in any seriously defended environment. One only has to see how Russian aircraft fear being over Ukrainian held territory despite its lack of the latest anti aircraft kit ( at least till Western kit arrives). They are firing off missiles often a lot longer ranged than 100 miles one would presume ( or from Belarusian territory) from reports and not being especially notable in the campaign at all in reality. Can the F35b take a longer range weapon internally? Really need the option for at least double that range especially as its host carrier is going to have to operate far further away than previously anticipated.

          • Realistically you won’t fit a longer range weapon internally as any longer range would necessitate a larger missile.

            The F35B has a combat radius of 520 miles on internal fuel, so could strike targets with SPEAR3 a little over 600 miles from the carriers.

          • Yes rather presumed the laws of physics were unbendable here as things stand re internal storage and long range missiles. What Concerns me is talk of the Chinese hypersonic missile having a thousand mile or is it km range. Now we know hitting a carrier at anything like that range wont be remotely easy esp with a hypersonic missile and there is as we see with Russia a big and exaggerated propaganda element in play here. But still a little concerning esp as the decade and technology progresses.

            Out of interest as drones are deemed a prospective way of improving strike scenarios and in safely carrying them out, I have just read this article below. The headline states how UK after 3 years of testing, deems drones (effectively loyal wingmen in taking the concept to its widest definition) of types it seemingly already possesses surprisingly an effective tool as a strike enhancing/extending weapon. Though thereafter it more or less seems to state just how difficult and ultimately expensive it is to make the concept effective especially at range and especially unless you use many expensive fast and complex systems.

            Of note to what we are discursive here about F35b and Spear it made the point of the difficulty in utilising and releasing swarm drones (with their relatively limited range) in environments where air defences have up to a 1000km range and using Ukraine as a very good education on the matter while emphasising the fact western forces are far more reliant on air superiority than those combatants, indeed it’s intrinsic to our present battle plan. Does this back up fears of only a 100 mile range for Spear?

            https://www.c4isrnet.com/global/europe/2022/07/14/royal-air-force-chief-says-drone-swarms-ready-to-crack-enemy-defenses/

            In the above article it mentions this drone which I had never heard of but looks very impressive especially having been designed and flown in little more than a year and is 3D printed too which seems to be the way to go in this sphere for quick production and upgrading.

            https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/raf-intrepid-minds-collaborate-first-fully-3d-printed-

          • To be honest 100miles is fine especially as an anti ship asset. The ships not ever going to see the F35 that kills it due to radar horizons. As the F35 would need to be higher than an attitude of 3600 is feet above see level for it to be above the radar horizon of a radar mounted 60 feet above see level at 100miles. So you f35 just needs fly under that an the ship can’t find him…..most people tend to forget about radar horizons the physics of actually being able to detect an enemy when they think about missile ranges. The reality is long range missile strikes are only possible against fixed targets that are not hiding and ships at sea have a massive area in which to hide as do aircraft and the radar horizon is not something you can get around.

      • Spear 3 has a range of 100 miles, with 8 of them and two meteors fitting internally. It is also the only ASHM that can fit internally. JSM is the only other good option as it is the lightest weight so 4 can be carried externally, or 2 with external fuel tanks. All other ASHM can only be carried in the weapons pylons closest to the centre of the aircraft, which are also the only weapons pylons that can carry external fuel tanks.
        The issue with JSM is that it isn’t stealthy, stealthy missiles and fuel tanks can be carried externally on F35 without affecting radar cross section too much.

        • SPEAR3 warhead is a tad too small for antiship, maybe only small vessels but its the only one that fits. F-35B’s smaller bomb can’t accommodate the 1000lb class missiles (eg. NSM) that can fit inside the F-35A/Cs

          • 2 F35Bs firing a full load of spear 3s at any large combat ship is going to get 50% target hit and 8 missles is going to make a mess of any ships systems plus the prospect of 2ndary explosions it will take the ship out action for some time requiring extensive repair. Also I don’t know why they don’t just put a larger warhead on meteor and hey presto a cheap near hypersonic ASM with 100 mile range. The kinetic energy alone would rip through the bridge and if it can hit a tennis ball at MK2 as advertised I’m sure it could hit a ship.

    • AMRAAM is an American missile and we’ve not only had older AMRAAMs for some time, we purchased 200 upgraded AMRAAMs (120D) a couple of year’s back for half a billion quid. The longer is takes before Meteor is integrated, the more American missiles we buy and the fewer we sell in Britain. And not only us. Meteor currently is better than AMRAAM, and there’s a big market out there, especially on F-35.

      Raytheon, the AMRAAM manufacturer, also have a UK support contract, worth a few million, that continues for every year we don’t have Meteor.

      I suspect that’s why a lot of people are cheesed off at the delays.

        • I cannot think there could be any connection, none, that doesn’t sound right at all, I’m sure the reason has to be something else, certain … Must be. Couldn’t possibly be fear of a commercial rival with a better offering. No. Not possible, not in this day and age … Must be something we have missed …

      • Yeah it’s almost like the US is dragging things out so that they can sell arguably inferior products right up to the point they can sell something more comparable to the non US missile to restrict competition, except when they are kowtowing to Israel anyway.

        • They’re in almost as bad a mess on F-35 as we are. The USAF has GBU-12 (their PWIV equivalent), 1,000lb JDAM and SDB1, Sidewinder 9X and Amraam. US Navy and USMC also have JSOW.

          Truth is we could do with some 1,000lb JDAM or SDB1 as ‘cheap’ munitions. Spear and Paveway IV are pricey…(be nice if MBDA developed some cheap munitions for the RAF).

          • Lessons from conflicts over the last 20 years have taught us accuracy and flexibility is key. That is why EPW4 is so good and it’s the RAF’S primary weapon. We haven’t used 2000lb or 1000lb for years. EPW4 will give you 80% of the bang of 1000lb weapon. Or dialled down to make a small bang. Advanced fuse and angle settings means we can target individual people or larger fixed targets and moving targets. The weapon can also be re-targeted in flight, and steered away to a safe area if collateral damage is a risk. Typhoon and F35B can drop 6 weapons to 6 different targets in one pass. It’s not cheap, but you don’t need to drop many when it’s so accurate and effective.

    • Currently further weapon integration isn’t happening until the block 4 software is ready. Block 4 has been delayed repeatedly and is really the major issue with the program.
      Lockheed need to give it full effort. So much is dependant on block 4. The USA needs to apply more pressure to get it sorted.
      Last I heard there was rumblings block 4 might not be ready until after 2030 and may not be able to deliver what it is promised to do. I always take those stories with a pinch of salt.
      Hopefully tempest uses a different software program that’s easier to use and update.

  3. It will be interesting to know if in true beast mode that the F35B can carry more than just 4 Meteor and 2 AMRAAMs? Hopefully there are some stealthy twin rack pylons available under the wings or maybe they can squeeze 3 Meteors into each bay? Sorry for sounding greedy.
    Is there any news on whether the 25mm canon pod will be adopted?

      • And any air-to-air laser developments? All that energy coming out of the backside of thebengine, surely some could be recycled back into generating power into laser?

      • With the internal bays and the 4 wing pylons load outs will expand if a need arises. Can always see 2 missiles on the pylons if needed.
        What will be good to see is a loyal wingman carrying extra weapons. Having 2 F35b on a combat air patrol with internal weapons and 1-4 loyal wingman with perhaps its on internal weapons bay with at least 2 missiles in each starts to add up.
        All that really depends if a loyal wingman can work as hoped.

        • What loyal wingman would that be- havent they just canned one?
          Would that loyal wingman by as ‘stealthy’ as the F35B – would the F35B with external weapons be as stealthy as the wingman.

          Whatr happens if the loyal wingman is a spy for the chinese and becomes a loyal wongman….

        • Hi monkey spanker, I’m new to all this and was wondering why we don’t build loyal wingmen with Italy and Sweden to go with tempest?also why didn’t we do a mixture of taranis and magma when we knew drones were going to be the big thing, thanks for any answers.

    • When the F35B is operating from a QE carrier will the limit be how many weapons can be carried in beast mode or will it be the maximum take-off weight (and / or maximum landing weight if we don’t want to be dumping kit)?

      • The Queen Elizabeths were designed around the F35B. The flight deck and ski jump were tailored to be able to launch them at there max take off weight.

      • They can takeoff and land at maximum weight. Last year aircraft did operate from the QE carrying 6 x 500lb Enhanced Paveways. 2 ASRAAM and 2 AMRAAM.

        • Thanks. Do we know if we are using routinely the rolling landing? And could an F35 loaded like you said land back on the QE without dumping ordnance (either landing vertically or rolling)?

          • I’m note sure if they are doing the rolling landing. Maybe that will come later. Yes they can land with a full load. Asymmetric loads are the problem which is why StormShadow isn’t being integrated, same reason it wasn’t used on the Harrier GR7/9. Plus Typhoon has that capability.

    • The Sidekick rack will not fit in the F-35B so no 3 missiles per bay I’m afraid. Meteor wouldn’t work on it either.

      With the exception of 9X and Asraam on the outer pylon there have been no powered weapons integrated for external carriage on F-35 to date.

      • Love the name “Sidekick”, great name for a missile too, like “Sidewinder”. Well if we can’t stretch the plane and bomb bays then we gave to shrink the missiles! As has been mentioned Meteor wool get some fins clipped. Don’t know why they can’t try for some “stealthly pod” attachments for under the wings. I remember seeing such a pod that I think it was carrying up to 4 AMRAAMs under the belly of a Hornet F-18. I don’t think it was ever taken up.

  4. I do hope this means that the HMG realise that being in the driving seat of a development program comes with some advantages – like getting your weapons integrated when you want / need not when LM can fit you in (to be fair to LM when their biggest customer by far says do xyz then xyz gets done).

    So hopefully this means that Tempest will continue to be funded.

    Cheers CR

    • Just been reading today of various reports claiming that moves are afoot to combine Tempest with the Japanese Fx programme with hopes for an announcement around Christmas. That has been the outcome I have been hoping for as it’s surely the best solution for both parties increasingly so as so much overlap is already growing in those platforms. Fingers crossed as it’s the only way I can see how the programme can meet its potential and retain full funding and timescales with Japanese estimates their program will cost some 40 billion to fund.
      It seems the idea is their version will be sold in the Asian market while we get Europe to sell in. Not sure what happens in the Middle East or Americas mind..

      • I bet the US may not be liking the UK-Japan fighter alliance. I wonder if the Swedes and Italians will stay in the mix. Could the US even join but without wanting to take over?

        • Hi Quentin,

          I doubt very much if the US could join such a big program without wanting to dominate it if for no other reason that they would likely be by far the biggest customer / operator. There is also the question of attitudes in the US Congress… Certainly their defence contractors would want the lion’s share of the rewards.

          I think having the UK, Japan, Italy and Sweden working on this project would be enough. It is not a traditional line up of partners, but so far things have being moving forward if not at a lightening pace then certainly at an encouragingly steady pace.

          Cheers CR

      • HI Spyinthesky,

        That is really interesting and hopeful news. My impression is that the UK have been very keen to build an alliance in all but name with the Japanese. With the smaller but still high tech collaboration on an improved Meteor AAM possibly being the ‘testbed’ for the growing relationship.

        I agree that having the Japanese as partners would give the program a huge boost. Fingers crossed.

        I think Quentin raises a good point about the Italians and Swedes and I hope that they stay on board with the program. With luck the UK is working hard to keep them on board. That would be 4 capable nations collaborating on a very exciting project.

        One down side I can see is that the UK was probably the lead nation on Tempest. Having Japan in the mix might blur the leadership issue which as we all know can cause issues…

        By the do you have any links?

        Thanks CR

  5. It might be possible the new Rafael Ice Breaker missile 350kg, 300km range might be able to be put inside F-35 weapons bays.

    • We should avoid any dealings with Israel in the military sphere whatsoever.
      Their conduct in the Ukraine War should be instructive. Nobody in NATO should have anything to do with them.

      • Yes when you read how the odd former Israeli military, intelligence or political figures with Russian connections are coming out to give ‘advice’ and support for Russia on their tactics etc it seems to me to be deeply troubling to have close relations with them esp considering some of their own behaviour. Just shows you how many Israelis with Russian backgrounds at various levels still have strong ties with that Country and regime sadly. And then we have dodgy Israeli spyware companies happily selling their software to any suspect regimes and entities for cash to help them break into innocent citizens and companies networks computers and phones for all manner of disreputable reasons and no doubt in extreme cases kidnapping and elimination. Their behaviour is little different to Iran just less of an overt enemy, but are they really on our side or are they just guns for hire getting away with it because Uncle Sam is covering their back?

          • I’m not entirely sure there are any benefits to such a relationship at all. We don’t sell much kit to them at all. Intelligence benefits are limited these days as well. Stick to basic trade with them, but no military kit…

      • The hypocrisy is staggering. Great Britain allied itself with murderous Staline or in Falklands with Pinochet regime. You ally itself with lesser evil for the moment.
        Even helped Tito opposition being murdered. To not talk about all support to Arab regimes that wanted to destroy Israel.
        Israel needs access to Syria to intercept Iranian forces and Heezbollah that only can be done witn Russian cooperation.

  6. I read somewhere that the F35b can carry 2 paveway4 in its weapon bay. What I wasn’t sure of is if that meant 2 in each bay or 2 in total? Hope someone can help

    • Taking a significant time to incorporate medium-long range air and anti surface on F35B, which are critical to RN, naturally.
      Wonder how quickly US will incorporate AIM260 on to it’s platforms, compared with Meteor say?

    • 1 per bay.
      Max UK loadout at present is 2 Asraam, 2 Amraam and 6 Paveway IV (2 internal and 2 under each wing).
      We’re not buying the gun pod either…

      • No UK defence reported back in June 2020 that the UK has no plans to purchase it but the pilot will be given a small Puch of stones and a sling shot to use in a dog fight.

  8. I did hear somewhere that LM may have been holding off integration because we’d been a bit remiss in paying for it- not sure if that’s true.
    Either way, it’s taking forever, during which time US weapons systems that aren’t as good (SDB II vs Spear 3 in particular) are achieving export contracts with F-35 operators because there aren’t alternatives ready to go. We should be chasing this harder. But, as CR says below, definitely a lesson for the UK wrt Tempest.

  9. However, as I reported previously, British F-35B jets were to be equipped with Meteor missiles by the ‘middle of this decade’, but this has slipped to 2027. 

    Well there’s no hurry … Not like we have an all out war on our doorstep is it?

    Who makes these decisions? What is the weather like on their planet?

  11. Bit off topic but US is finally considering training Ukrainian pilot of F16s. Could have had them qualified by now.

  12. As several people have made the same point about weapon carriage/pylons don’t forget that the prime benefit of the F35 is stealth and you won’t get that with a load of ordnance hanging off the airframe.
    On the subject of Block 4 there have been official reports in recent weeks that it may not happen at all and the the US will go for replacement engines and a major software upgrade, but not on the B version.
    Slippage in now inherent in everything we do these days so I don’t believe delivery dates anymore.

    • I’m not sure that stealth carriage is all that relevant given the integration of the F35 fleet.

      One F35 in “Stealth” mode could search and designate targets for following, less stealthy aircraft outside of detection range.

      Not as good as F35s armed with internally carried, stealthy missiles
      admittedly, but better than the bombs carried at present.

      • There aren’t any less stealthy aircraft on a carrier Bob so they all have to be part of the same attack. Mind you, as I have said many times before here there is not much chance in the next six or seven years in us attacking anybody. With a total “fleet” of 12 to 15 aircraft shared between the RAF and RN the whole shared aircraft idea was ridiculous right from the start.. I am also assuming that we have something to fire at the enemy, of course.

    • No-one credible is saying Block IV won’t happen.
      It has to as the EW, E/O and other weapons will not get integrated without it.

      • You mean apart from the Pentagon, the USAF and the US Government Accountability Office. Yes, I see what you mean.

    • Hi Geoff, I’m not technically sure of this is possible but I’d imagine some “stealth” could potentially be applied electronically too, giving some form of “cloaking” over ordnance being carried and we know some missiles themselves are stealthy.

  13. For all the Billions the UK has spent on the QE Carriers + F-35B, it is a very limited array of weapons they can put on target. A precision, stand off, heavy weapon is missing. As is an anti ship missile. Still no long range drop tanks or gun pods.

    • I still don’t like the RN not having ownership of some of these aircraft if(!) the international situation deteriorates further. This despite all the talk of genuine jointness with RAF. I can easily understand that the current arrangement is efficient for peactime operation for a number of reasons – similar to my to date support for RN FFBNW scenario to get hulls in the water.
      However, as crises multiply the pressure on the F35B’s RAF owner will mount, since there are unlikely to be ‘enough’ airframes for their requirements let alone RN’s. At that point, who owns and maintains – and tasks – will become contentious, I feel. I think tasking has already proved a bottleneck behind the scenes for both parties, and that’s just coordinating training requirements.
      I know that a scheduled batch of these aircraft are due to be marked as FAA, but ‘ownership has not been decided’. Well, to slightly miscontextualise Baldrick, the 2nd time I’ve quoted that sage of late, in time of war it’s best to OWN the bullet with Your Name On It.

      • Agree but the problem is the RN doesn’t have the budget for a seperate fleet of F35’s. It has lots of claims on its budget while the RAF only has aircraft plus.RAF Regt. It’s down to the price tag of the F35. It’s more complicated obviously but when you think scrapping all 5 Type 31’s and spending the cash on F35 would only give you 15 ! Not even enough for 1 airgroup.

      • It isn’t a battle between the RN and RAF for F35 airframes. The F35 Lightning force is a joint force, and will be deployed as requirements see fit, be it on a aircraft carrier or land based. The force is deployed by top brass in the MOD and the joint chiefs. It isn’t a case of the RAF want to do a certain deployment so the RN lose out, it doesn’t work like that anymore. People need to get used to the joint concept. The plan was always to have 4 frontline sqns, 2 RAF, and 2 RN, with the manning a 50/50 split between pilots and engineers. Even support staff across the whole camp at Marham are RAF and RN. Operations, ATC, fire Service, catering, administration, Survival equipment engineers, medics, everything that is required to get those jets into the air. A huge team works tirelessly, so we can deploy combat air power were it is required, regardless if the aircraft have RAF or RN sqn colours. Airframes are moved around sqns as they are required. It’s a whole force concept we have been using for years. Sqns don’t own the same 12 jets like they used to years ago. It means aircraft availability is far higher, as engineering maintenance is planned across the whole force, and we can deploy the best jet’s as required.

          • To be honest Gavin, not much information about how these joint force elements work is out in the public domain. I worked as part of Joint Force Harrier at RAF Cottesmore , but i served in the RN.

          • I’d say you’ve just added to your credentials, in fact. I served, but squeezed between just losing AR and the Invincibles arriving – a bit of a feat. But we had subs in relative abundance – wistful pondering ensues.

          • I was 99-2013. Served on all 3 Invincible class. Started on Sea Harrier FA2’s at Yeovilton, then GR7/9 at RAF Cottesmore and a little at RAF Wittering. (Avionics Pinky) would loved to have worked on the F35, but I got married and had a child so decided to leave while I was young enough start a second career. 👍

          • Aside, only just appreciated that UK & US carriers of WW2 were around Invincible size. Japan had the larger dimensioned on balance, though their often higher tonnage was frequently due to their being battleship conversions and the like of course.
            We’ve become used to supercarriers as the modern baseline, though US are apparently debating downsized but numerous flattops for cost, speed of build and asset distribution.
            Anyway, cheers.

        • Your right, its hardly a new concept with joint helicopter command working together in Iraq and Afghan and the joint harrier force in Falklands.

      • Why it worked in the Falklands with the joint harrier force, I believe the airforce and Navy pilots served together well.

        • No worries over the lower echelons working together, Andy. I’ll go with Robert’s assessment now as it’s got to work out!

  15. Early leaked photo from Farnborough showing BAE setting up a loyal wingman stand and in the background looks to be a carrier ramp launched drone as well.

    • That looks neat. Hopefully the ukdj can do some articles from Farnborough. It’s too far away from down here in 🇦🇺 . Australia already has its Ghost Bat LW flying so there’s a bit of catch-up to be done.

    • I am certain Bae must have a workable Loyal Wingman by now. The MOD needs to buy a few and start using them to see how they work and gauge their effectiveness. Taranis is for a start….they must have still been working low key on it surely?

      Or…we will be faffing around with constantly changing specs and requirements for ever with no one apparently willing to make any decisions.
      AA

      • “Or…we will be faffing around with constantly changing specs and requirements for ever with no one apparently willing to make any decisions”.

        That will make a refreshing change….oh hang on

  16. Maybe the MOD can negotiate with Kongsberg for some extra Naval Strike Missile (aka the restarted Interim Antiship Missiles for the Navy) so that the F-35B can can carry externally a useful sophisticated modern stand-off weapon. The NSM is being slightly modified as the Joint Strike missile for the Cousins to carry internally on F-35A or C.

    • I think she ‘claims’ a lot of things she certainly ‘supports’ a lot of anyway- she is All things to all men (or women) …Being a good PM looks like another dubious claim.

      • Last thing we need is another Boris, telling everyone what they want to hear but never actually doing anything. The options are not great between the candidates, so she has a low bar to beat.

    • Apparently she was seen recently sporting some Submariner’s Dolphin’s as well…a lot of people not impressed about that…

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