Work has begun revamping the world-famous Harland & Wolff yard in Belfast so it can build three new support ships for the Royal Navy.
The Royal Navy say here that the existing fabrication halls at the shipbuilders are being significantly enhanced to support construction of the successors to RFA Fort Victoria.
“Three Fleet Solid Support vessels are being ordered to replace the venerable ‘one-stop-shop’ which provides ammunition, food, dry stores and spare parts to Royal Navy warships. The new ships will be an integral part of a carrier strike group. At 40,000 tonnes and 216 metres long they will be second only to HMS Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales in length and displacement, more than 34 metres wide, with a capacity for 9,000 square metres of stores (that’s almost the size of a football pitch).
The trio – as yet unnamed – are being constructed by the Team Resolute consortium (comprising Navantia UK, Harland and Wolff and BMT) which was selected back in January by the MOD. The final assembly of all three ships will be completed at Harland & Wolff, famous for building the Titanic and her sisters and, more during WW2 and afterwards, a host of RN vessels from Flower-class corvettes through to carrier HMS Eagle.”
At the peak of construction work, Harland & Wolff alone are expected to employ 1,200 personnel across various sites, with an expected additional 800 people involved in the UK supply chain.
Great to see the material yard being revamped, we n3ed more shop building in the UK, but the harder part is going to be rebuilding the expertise within the workforce.
Community knowledge has been lost. Fingers crossed the plan to regain those skills is sound.
Good to see investment in other yards away from the Clyde. The U.k must look to find ways to boost the production rate in British shipbuilding
Morning Mike-” rebuilding the expertise” is a serious problem worldwide. Apprentices serving 3 to 5 years under the watchful eye of workshop foremen is long a thing of the past! With automation and AI one wonders what the future holds not only for the workforce but for mankind in general.
On the subject of H&W, some of our extended family worked there in the last century. It was an Ulster icon along with Courtaulds,Shorts Bros and others. It is wonderful to see it’s rebirth and kicking off with such a significant contract for the RFA. Good to spread the love across the UK!
Always had to do coursework Plus on site paid work
https://bcsa.org.uk/resources/training/craft-scheme/craft-structural-steelwork-fabricator-welder/
This 12 months of course work alone- in practice 4-5 years elapsed time when including paid work under supervision
The real problem is those who give up part way through
My apprenticeship took over 4 years. Automation has since done away with all manner of highly skilled engineering roles.
CNC machines don’t need a fag break, nor holidays nor 3 people to cover 24hrs of production. Hate to say it, but they are more reliable too.
No need for wages, tax, National Insurance contributions, Pension schemes, Sick Pay/Schemes etc etc…
I remember watching an article on BAE regenerating lads & lasses apprentice training at Barrow a while back. Whilst interviewing one young man he was, like all the youngsters, genuinely keen on the opportunity afforded to gain a valuable skilled trade qualification. Somewhat downsided on his part, I thought, by his blandly innocent comment that he was then looking forward to applying those skills in the USA. Of course, BAE operate in a similar capacity over there as well.
Hilarious. Pay for my education so as I can work for someone else😂
Indeed, geoff.
But on the wider front perhaps we have to admit that what goes around comes around. As the resident of a country still wealthy enough to be milked by tax-dodging billionaires, I often get embarrassed by the way our political class say we’ll revive our NHS crisis by ‘buying up’ those doctors who’s home state, one where the majority are pretty poor, has spent valuable public funds qualifying them in the role.
KRs
The employer pays for the apprenticeships, minus whatever subsidy they get from the government.
Doctors, Nurses, Radiologists, Dentists etc etc training is paid for by the NHS, ergo, the taxpayer.
It has always been that way.
Morning Tom but in general the employer has a right to expect that the apprentice or trainee will work for him, if not forever for at least a respectable period of time. Here in SA, some employers both public and private, mandate a minimum employment period. If the employee leaves before that time is up, then he/she is obliged to pay back a portion of the training cost.
Regards
I really hope we can keep H&W open with a sustainable build program for large RN vessels after. 6 MRSS + a Replacement for the point class should be enough to keep the yard open indefinitely but the big question will be is the UK government really committed to its own ship building strategy.
With the rise of China in the middle of the century, NATO will need all the ship building capacity it can get and having three yards cranking out surface ships from hot production lines will be key.
This should be our main goal rather than trying to increase the army to guard the German boarder.
Brussels has been pretty quick to dismiss Labours ideas of closer relations so it’s hard to see what we can gain Geo politically from a bigger army especially given the complete military and industrial failure of Russia.
Agree your points re the RN and Army. That said, Brussels will do what France and Germany tell them: that’s why Charles’ first 2 diplomatic visits were to these key nations. These visits are no accident. Russia is clearly intent on undermining the existing world order which is based on the values of ‘the West’. Post Brexit UK inherits a crucial responsibility to hold the North Atlantic alliance together and is ideally placed both geographically and politically. Closer relations with Europe is part of fulfilling that responsibility, and they are in our economic interest. The US and Europe need to be in lockstep if Putin is to be defeated and Chinese expansionism is to be contained.
I like this
Thx. Sometimes its difficult to work out who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. There are 120,000 Chinese students at UK universities. No doubt some of them are acting for the Chinese state. But I’ll bet the experience of the majority results in their being converted to western values. Charles’ coronation ceremony csn be traced back a thousand years. We shouldn’t under estimate our influence in China. This is quote from a Sept 2013 edition of the Daily Telegraph. The Chinese hold Edmund Burke and Hobbs in great esteem.
“We want to learn from the British model,” said Daokui Li, a memberChina’s upper chamber or `House of Lords’ (CPPCC) and a professor at Beijing’s Tsinghua University. “Today’s leaders in China are looking carefully at the British style of political change over the last 400 years, analysing the difference with France,” he told me at the annual Ambrosetti gathering of world policy-makers at Villa d’Este on Lake Como. “England went through incredible changes: a war against the US; wars against France; wars against Germany twice, the rise and decline of empire; and universal suffrage. Yet society remained stable through all this turmoil, with the same institutions and political structure. We think the reason is respect for tradition, yet willingness to make changes when needed.”“It is a contrast with France. We know from De Toqueville’s study of the Ancien Regime that if you don’t do reforms, you will end up with a revolution, and that is what will happen in China if we don’t reform in time,”
Thx. I posted a reply held for review, which remarks on the admiration the Chinese have for British tradition and stability. I think we wield more influence on China than we know and I see Putin as the real bad guy. The US has issues with China but I have to ask were they not not themselves to blame for outsourcing too many jobs to China who were more than happy to accept them? Europe is in grave need of a kick up the backside. The most competent leader in Europe right now is Giorgia Meloni. She is to Woke what Isabella of Castile was to the Moors. Trying to think what the modern day equivalent is of sponsoring Christopher Columbus and setting up the Spanish Inquisition, but she is certainly telling Macron and Scholz which way is up on immigration.
Britain’s role should be from the sea and air and maybe assistance to the Nordics. The Navy need more money. The EU have an increasingly well armed Poland, the French and the Germans and Uncle Sam. There is no need or gain for us to design, field or pay for a European field army. As Mr Putin is demonstrating right now.
It has long been stated that Russia remains the most acute threat to the West, specifically Europe. Yet you think we do not need a European field army?
Russia has always been an aggressive power and has invaded many countries. The whole of NATO needs to field sizable deterrent forces and that includes the British Army – this is not all down to Poland, France, Germany and the US.
Of course, 3 Div does not just have to be ready for operations on the European continent – we have deployed a division (to the Gulf and Iraq) twice in the last 30 years.
And rather than spend billions on one failed army development project after another like ajax just buy some eg German armour so at least the small budget the army has actually ends up with a decent number of vehicles at the end of it. And the money saved buying off the shelf put into navy and air with all the expertise and industry. Probably not politically great to buy German but logically it makes sense surely
Ajax and army vehicles is digressing a bit. For what its worth I applaud the MODs decision to re-enter the Boxer program. Some humility is always good; and the BAE RBSL linkup with Rheinmetal. Germany needs like minded friends and we need to rebuild an armoured vehicle industry and skills. Its a win-win partnership which is clearly a diplomatic priority. I notice BMW have been persuaded to make electric Minis in Oxford.
Ajax has been discussed here many times by knowledgable contributors. I don’t think I can add anything of substance.
Ajax is fixed. Had you not heard?
Existing world order included a lot of ‘western’ invasions too in last 30 years
US troops are still occupiers in Europe in Kosovo – for 20 years after Serbia war
The US especially has a shocking history of ‘special military actions’
True enough. Not everything about ‘the West’ is something to be proud of. 1st world multi-nationals have robbed 3rd world nations of economic sovereignty and created the conditions where conflict and corruption thrive. Its little wonder that the Chinese model looks attractive. In my opinion the reason that the West, both in Europe and the US is on the back foot is that it has chosen secular liberal democracy in preference to Christian social democracy. Freedom and capitalism have a symbiotic relationship in the latter but eventually come into conflict in the former. In comparing post revolution France with the US De Toqueville wrote ” America is great because America is good”. Its not that Russia and China are strong; its that we have made ourselves weak.
‘ … but the big question will be is the UK government really committed to its own ship building strategy.‘
Precisely Jim. Who wouldn’t have doubts?
Jim,
Our army is of course not guarding the German border. We lead a MN BG in Estonia and have a light cavalry sqn in Poland in NATO’s eFP programme in a deterrent posture.
I agree that we do not need a large army – you may have noticed that we have not had a large army since the late 80s.
Also, the army is not just European-focussed.
Is there a preservation order on Samson and Goliath?
Yes, I believe so. It was rather sad at the time because they were the only bits left to remind us of what had been.
I love listing and preserving structures but I wouldn’t let it stand in the way of regenerating ship building.
I’m sure they will come up with some way to keep them visible somewhere close…iconic Belfast skyline.
Absolutely. As a child I have vivid memories of entering the Belfast Lough with the green fields of Down on the left and Antrim on the right, sailing in on a ferry from Liverpool with a band playing Boyne Water as H&W came into view and Grandad waiting for me on the dockside.
Scuse the nostalgia but I am sure most of us have similar memories
👌👍
H&W – Hello & Welcome
Good news but most importantly no date mentioned for the build of the ships to commence. All rather late as the word on the street is RFA Fort Victoria is all but finished and there are now credible rumours of leasing a vessel from the US or at least utilising one for deployments further afield.
it has previously been stated the 1st ship will be ready by 2028 and the third by 2032
I thought the MOD already responded to those rumors and said it was nonsense? Fort Vic needs some things sorting out but it’s just a question of priorities. It’s also an issue of personnel; Fort Vic needs a large crew and the RFA is very short at the moment.
Good news but we need these ships now, FTVR will not survive until 2030 let alone 2032. 9 years to build them is too long. These ships should have been in service in 2018 but both Conservative and previous Labour Government’s have bottled the decision and placed the RN in a difficult place. At lest the delay will hopefully allow the RFA to recruit and build its depleted workforce!
It really wasn’t as simple as you make out. At least the present government under Wallace’s tenure had the balls to grip it and turn it into a reality and with the majority of work happening in the UK – at extra cost of course.
I tend to disagree. I was in Fleet between 2007 and 2010 as the Tanker SME and the decision to delay and rerun the Mars Tanker build ran on to effect both FSS and JSBL the later was cancelled in favour of a 3rd FSS. I was again the future capabilities Officer in AFSUP in between 2018 and 2020 and again the delay in placing the build was the Navy wanting too much and Government not listening and hence another redesign. We could have had the seed ships built if the S of S’s between 2010 and 2019 had listened to the experts and this was the RFA not the RN or civil service.
Hi David. The extra cost is a “moot point”. Look at the net cost after deducting the tax generated and other contribution to the local economy and you will see that the real costs are not that different, bearing in mind that all the overhead would be given to an overseas contractor if built in a foreign country
Correct. If you buy anything made in the UK, the manufacturer pays corporation tax, employer’s NI, Business Rates, plus lots of sub-contractors’ paying the same. Then there is the income tax and NI paid by the employees, plus the VAT on everything they buy with their wages. In reality this money circles round until it leaves the UK when something made abroad is purchased.
Looks like there is a fair bit of work to get done before any kind of ship building work can get started. Also recruiting enough skilled staff maybe a challenge. I wonder how many Spanish yard workers will be coming over with the parts built there.
I really hope this project doesn’t go over budget and fall behind in the schedule. It’s a bit of a risk as a ships not been built here in a long time.
Good luck to them. 3 military ship building yards running in the U.K. and one sub yard let’s hope there is enough work to go round all of them.
Are the ships being built in a shed, on a slipway, hardstand then barge into the water?
We need around 12-15 ships in a cycle with a 2 year build to keep a yard viable. So 3 is about right if we are getting 24 surface escorts, 5 OPV’s, 6 amphibious ships 3 stores 4 tankers are 4 lift ships.
I think they will use the building dock. They can fit two in at the same time. It was constructed to build 500,000 ton supertankers so these little things won’t worry it. Slipway and launches are so last century. It’s the biggest dock in Western Europe.
Build dock is 93m wide so should allow for all 3 to be built at one time. Theoretically could have 4 built at one time but 3 allows wiggle room so they can be transferred forward and backwards when one needs launching.
Great news. I visited the H&W site as a tourist 3 years ago. No visible ship building/repair activity then – very sad.
This is just whay H&W and Belfast needs.
H&W was bust and was rescued by Infrastrata led by John Wood, because it was seen as a cheap way to build the steelwork for the gas storage project. Three years on and Infrastrata is renamed Harland & Wolff and has also rescued two Scottish steel fabrication yards at Methil and Arnish and revitalised them as well as buying the empty Appledore yard and restarting work there with the regeneration of HMS Quorn for the Lithuanian Navy. A fantastic effort by John Wood and his team. Lots of other ship repair work won at Belfast and Appledore too. A new £80m repair job is on the cards for early next year. 20 barges have been ordered by Cory for use in the Thames and are providing valuable practice for apprentices and working up production operations.
Great info. Thanks. Good to see ‘old yards’ being resurrected howsoever it happened.
Steel making, shipbuilding are strategically important national capabilities/industries yet every generation the battle is fought with the government to maintain these industries. UK governments never learn. They know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
👍 agree
God speed H&W. Shame it has to be basically Spanish.
Ditto to the UK tank building industry. We need to design and make CH4. What a great export opportunity, but it should be a British/Commonwealth effort – not German.
The ships are designed in Britain, the majority will be built in the UK and they will be assembled in the UK. Struggle to see how that makes them Spanish.
….”NAVANTIA is a Spanish state-owned company which belongs to the Sociedad Estatal de Participaciones Industriales (SEPI), which controls 100% of its capital.”
i.e. profits.
NAVANTIA UK – officers listed are just a couple of Spanish blokes.
The ships are designed in Britain, will be assembled in NI and the majority of each ship will be built in the UK.
Yes Navantia is needed to transfer skills to H&W as they haven’t built a ship in 20 years. It’s the best news shipbuilding shipbuilding in this country has had in a while.
It’s the same argument about is Jaguar/Land Rover British or Indian? Is the British steel industry British or Indian & Chinese? At the end of the day it is about who “owns” and gets the profits and IP, and what value the UK should attribute to that. I am just saying that I would prefer these key strategic things to be British
P.S. You can’t convince me just by repeating yourself.
It is completely different to the other two examples.
Harland and Wolff can’t build the ships without Navantia.
Harland and Wolff has some of the best shipbuilding facilities for large ships in Europe.
Either 100% of the ships are built abroad and every ship from then on, or 1/3 of the ships are built abroad and H&W can build whole ships from then on.
There is no other yard in the UK that could really build ships like this.
….but that is not my point. Why can’t the UK – like Spain – have a state-owned strategic ship building organisation like Sociedad Estatal de Participaciones Industriales (SEPI)?
So rather than letting foreign Govs take over our industries. Ditto for the energy sector too.
It can’t because there are no shipyards that can build large ships…
Navantia is not taking over anything as H&W and BMT both remain British owned companies. Navantia are taking the lead in the FSSS programme as they are very experienced.
This was the only way…
Just a couple of questions here… why are parts of these ships being made in Devon, and Cadiz, Spain?
Devon to Belfast is bad enough, but moving blocks and modules from Spain… to Belfast… how on earth is that cost effective?
Because the other two yards are experienced. Belfast has pretty much zero experience.
Agreed 👍
Appledore is owned by H&W and built block sections of the two RN carriers. It has skills and facilities in the form of an enclosed dry dock to build them.
Appledore also built 4 OPV’s for the Irish Navy who were very pleased with them.