British jets have taken part in a flypast over Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania, to mark the country’s Restoration of Independence Day celebrating independence from the Soviet Union in 1990.
The Royal Air Force say here that flying from Zokniai Air Force Base near Siauliai in Lithuania the Typhoons joined a pair of Polish F-16s which were observed by the President of Lithuania, Gitanas Nauseda, who was joined by a number of ex-Presidents and Government heads.
“During the Ceremony flags of the three Baltic States of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were raised over Independence Square near the Lithuanian Parliament.”
Brian Olly, Her Majesty’s Ambassador to Lithuania, was quoted as saying:
“I was delighted to meet the pilots of the Royal Airforce Eurofighter Typhoons in Siauliai airbase yesterday. Celebrating the Restoration of Independence Day over the capital city Vilnius is a tangible demonstration of UK’s unwavering commitment to NATO defence of the Baltic region.”
The RAF add in their press release that during the day RAF Typhoons flying from RAF Coningsby and RAF Akrotiri also conducted patrols in the region as part of pre-planned enhanced Vigilance Activity, a NATO task initiated in response to events in Ukraine. They say that this activity is intended to “defend the region and is a robust response to Putin’s aggression, contributing to the security of Europe”.
Officer Commanding A Flight IX(B) Squadron was quoted as saying:
“It’s always a privilege to be part of a partner nation’s national celebrations. The flypast provided a unique opportunity to maintaining the close working relationship with Lithuania and NATO partners while demonstrating the UK’s continued commitment to its Allies and the unity within the Joint Expedition Force.”
The last 18-19 days have been a disaster especially for the people of Ukraine but it has been a seminal moment for UK foreign policy. All the way through the build up to the actual invasion the UK has been spot on. Warning of the seriousness of Russias plans to invade while countries like France downplayed it all along until the very last moment. Then you add that the UK backed up it’s words with deeds by being the first to supply Ukraine with lethal weapons like NLAW to defend itself. The result is that our reputation throughout Central Europe has never been higher. From Scandinavia to the Baltics and through Poland to the Black sea we are respected and our steadfastness against the Russian state admired. It’s been a long time since our nation has stood so high in the world and the politicians,civil servants,intell agencies and our armed forces deserve our praise and admiration. From me at least thank you.
Blown out of the water by stating no British troops would be deployed giving Putin the green light. What about Boris & the Tories being in bed with Russian money? Nothing we did succeeded in deterring Putin’s invasion & many have & had stated it was possible. Rather we’ve covered ourselves in shame that has allowed all the death, injury & devestation in Ukraine while we salve our concience with kind words & ancilliary support.
Rather than high UK reputation I think the lesson broadcast world wide is that we’re weak, fickle allies.
I’m not disappointed that we haven’t started world war 3 which is exactly what your advocating without having the guts to say so. You say Russian money I say Salisbury. You say weak and fickle allies I say ask Estonia,Latvia,Lithuania,Poland and especially with big capital letters Ukraine. I for one am glad that Jeremy Corbyn wasn’t in charge during this crisis and so are everyone who opposes Putin.
I agree. Significantly the ‘Little Englanders’ who have been training Ukrainian troops for years – ‘fickle’? – rode swiftly to arm the Ukraine and that’s what counts. It took the ‘Europeans’ days of dithering, including blocking their airspace to British supply flights to Ukraine. I suspect much more has been done and wisely kept secret. The Ukrainians can fight as they have demonstrated in terms. I welcome a robust continuation of this country’s support including supporting the front line states Moldova and Poland with their huge humanitarian effort.
Spot on. If we hadn’t supplied lethal weapons first would the US or EU have. 🤔
Wow! You’re really giving yourselves too much credit.
Where are from? USA? We deserve quite a lot of credit.
Is Biden drawing up any red lines to prepare for a more active engagement – or is he weak?
David ,the EU would of hurried too Arm the Ukraine with Political correct Harsh Words and Macrons White Silk sheets and the yanks dropped Hersey bars whereas We fought NLAW and NLAW won sorry little Clash there
😂😂👍
Tommo! We are going to fall out.
I’m sorry David ,the Hersey bar comment was just a line from a great film” Empire of the Sun “
I think we are good 🙂
Loved the Clash ref.
Cheers David for a minute I thought bugger I’m going too have too check under my car before I put the key in the ignition hee hee
The Europeans did not block their airspace… it was posted on here, so please, don’t post BS on this site.
Did you mean Germany had an issue? And on Friday I was with a panzer Maj, he was happy that Germany finally stood up, and worked with Brits and their Challys in Poland and knew they were brothers in arms, knew his people in Lithuania would stand.
Until you were born in Germany, have roots in Germany, please don’t put down the German people for failing to forget their history.
Now, that particular piece of history is becoming a chapter and not the main act; the Heer are taking their place again.
Please remain civil. The failings of Europe’s largest economy to spend on collective defence has been the subject of debate before now; it was a scandal. My brother’s ashes are buried near his family home in Germany close to where my nephew’s live. Try to paint me in your own prejudice what you will, but I like the country.
Tobias Ellwood was on Hardtalk – at what point would we have started WW3?
There is a PM not the bluffer we have now.
We withdrew troops from a free sovereign State and in doing so, have allowed multiple war crimes to be undertaken; are you still feeling happy?
The UK could have led the way, failed but Liz Trusless looked good in her hat…
We withdrew a small team of troops training Ukraine Army in NLAW when that job was done. Should that small team have stayed there?
Tend to, unfortunately have to agree with what you have detailed.
The UK government definitely was one of the first to state that intelligence was pointing to an invasion being imminent and acted early to start supplying useful weapons to the Ukrainians.
But the willingness to accept dodgy money into London to be cleaned and used to stoke the inflated property market. And for all political parties to accept dodgy Russian money. As if they make those kind of payments without expecting anything in return, just leads to a lack of trust and suspicion of rampant corruption within politics in this country. You would have thought that all of this would have started to have been sorted out after the Salisbury poisonings on UK soil but I guess the love of the money was more important than anything else. Many recent event have lead to the UK being seen as fickle and untrustworthy, especially in relation to treaties etc.
To be fair to the French the Ukrainians themselves were asking countries not to stoke the flames by mentioning invasion, I think through more hope that realism.
Good points. The Ukrainians certainly didn’t want to believe Russia would attack but the French ridiculing what others were saying must have reinforced that. Would things have been different if the Ukrainians had been getting the same warnings from everyone ? I guess we’ll never know.
David, Equally likely, I think Zelensky accepted the summary of US/UK intelligence briefings, knew an invasion was coming – but didn’t want to prematurely panic his civilian population – nor mobilize his army too early, thereby giving Putin another pretext to invade.
That may explain some of last month’s comments from the Ukrainian president.
Maybe. Either way I guess he had no good options.
Zelensky did not read the history of WW2, Poland did not mobilize its army in 1939 until it was late. How did that work out?
Hi John
Yes – but Zelensky might have read the history of WW1, when mobilization of armies led the Great Powers into war during August 1914.
In 1939 the UK advice to Poland was too delay mobilisation in case it was seen as belligerent.
That is true, so did Biden give the same advice to Zelensky?
I had not heard that Ukraine mobilised army too late. If that was true Russian tropps would have got to Kyiv weeks ago.
Likely not as the intel is the actual decision to invade was taken at the end of January, three weeks before it started.
For those 3 weeks Macron was telling Ukraine it was false and Putin was bluffing. How much credence did Ukraine give to the French intell and how did it affect their decisions on what to do to prepare the people and armed forces for what was coming. We’ll know eventually but not anytime soon.
You missed points about Russian money in Con politics. Do you think Russian money has strengthened UK politics? Been a force for good?
How many nationalities money do you think is in UK politics exactly?
Its all well and good banging on about Russian money specifically and the conservatives but its only a very small part of a much bigger picture.
Agree with that, comment , David, the yanks and ourselves were informing the Ukrainians about an imminent Invasion when the winter Olympics finished but it would seem that they believed that Macron and his phone call to putin prior too the Invasion sta,ting that Putin had told him that Russia had no intention of invading Ukraine , well I’m afraid Macron should wipe the egg of his face and stand in the corner when the next G7 summit starts his dreams of France leading the EU future Army will be debatable if he’s still president
Macron has tens of thousands of dead bodies on his hands thanks to his posing. First during Covid slagging off Astrazeneca then Ukraine telling them not to worry about Russian invasion. How he sleeps at night god knows.
David he must sleep uncomfortably now as his sheets have been readied too making flags for his surrender His attitude over both covid ,his peace making phone call with Putin will be written and remembered then he has the Galic audacity, too say The UK isn’t doing enough too help the Ukrainian refugees, yet he fails to stop the illegal migrants at Calais even though The UK has paid the French too stop this trade in my little world the only French warrior who would have stood up too Putin is Astrix the Gaul ,oh sorry their both Cartoon characters
😂😂
Stuart, With respect – based on your past comments on this forum, you believe in Scottish separatism.
You support the cession of Scotland from the United Kingdom. An action which will disrupt NATO, threaten the UK independent nuclear deterrent, which at this time has never seem more relevant – not only for the UK, but for the rest of our allies in Europe – and give succour to a Russian dictator. As Christopher Meyer said the other day, Britain is “annoying grit in Putin’s shoe” – Putin would love a weakened UK. He may even view Ms Sturgeon as another “useful idiot”.
Indeed, Ms Sturgeon did not cover herself in glory during her recent incoherent statements on the Ukrainian crisis. Plus her predecessor as SNP leader only recently gave up his TV show on Russia Today.
By its actions, the UK government clearly respects the self-determination of small nations. And it is certainly honouring the Bucharest memorandum of 1994.
But in respect of them honouring the “once in a lifetime” 2014 Scottish independence referendum – perhaps Scottish separatists could be viewed as somewhat “fickle and untrustworthy”.
What’s his view on Scottish independence got to do with this. That view does not colour every item that will be considered in his life. The exact same as something you said on one topic being applied to everything you comment on afterwards.
Please will everyone stop pushing Scotland away from the U.K by mentioning Scotland independence at every opportunity
Hi Monkey Spanker – as you know, I’m completely consistent in all my views! 😉
Stuart is a nice lad – but writing as a home-based Scot, my experience is that Scottish separatists tend to see most events through the prism of secession!
Separatists always have a fair bit of skin in any debate over the failings of the UK. Although strangely remain hyper-sensitive about the conduct or failures of the SNP administration in Edinburgh!
To be fair to Stuart, he didn’t use that old chestnut of “Westminster” this time!
I’m not sure either MS. Without having any idea on my views on numerous topics, including the one I am being accused of, the boring, lazy, stereotypical option seem to has been fallen back on. Oh well I’ll get over it. Alan seems also to be a nice lad so no offense taken.
Well, extrapolating your reasoning, Brexit is the gift that keeps… gifting.., to Putin.
However, let us use deflection to shift the focus.
David, You’ve lost me, I didn’t support Brexit – and have never posted that I did.
Re-read, you may slap my head and re-educate me. Apologies.
(I’d gone into rant mode over how the EU has failed this, denied that flight, been slower than the British…).
Slap me twice.
😃
How is Brexit giving multiple gifts to Putin?
Again, I agree. We got Putin’s pals money; Putin has got Germany. The Parliamentary opposition had Johnson down for the count before the invasion (rape?) of Ukraine and now look at him. I can understand their disappointment watching him do a Houdini but the Russian money has been a godsend to many critics. I can’t see why Russian money is any worse than the rest that flits through the City Of London – Asiatic dictators and African crooks, Texan billionaires with odd ideas about world domination. The Scott Trust that owns The Guardian is registered in a tax haven. The fact is, Blighty got this right.
Agree Frank, I was replying in the context of what is going on currently. Dodgy money, from any source should not be tolerated in London or anywhere else. This needs to be confronted by all countries that currently permit this to happen or the money just gets moved about.
On your other point I think Boris’s respite may only be temporary though, pretty awful that it took the current disaster that is unfolding for so many poor, innocent people to save his skin for a bit longer.
I’ll just re-state, Putin has not got Germany. Germany is standing up.
I will concede your point that this Con Govt are corrupt.
Corrupt but showing resolve. You would have prefer a government led by a man who never saw a terrorist in his life he did not like?
Putin can close down German industry and its economy with one telephone call.
Which government hasnt been corrupt? Be difficult to say for certain any of them in living memory!
Frank, I agree with your main sentiment – Britain and the West can still do more for the brave people of Ukraine.
And David’s back-slapping is perhaps a wee bit premature.
But to clarify – it is Russia that is covering itself in shame.
Vladimir Putin has joined the company of Adolph Hitler as dictators who have invaded Ukraine in the modern era. And with the exception of some very courageous demonstrators – for the moment, most of the Russian population has gone along with it.
Of all the Western countries, it is the UK that is largely leading in co-ordinating economic sanctions, and military aid. And based on their comments, these efforts seem to be acknowledged by President Zelensky and ordinary Ukrainians – plus the Poles and the Nordic countries.
The Ukrainian government needs more help, and they have criticisms of the Western response – but I do not see any evidence that they believe the UK to be a “weak or fickle” ally.
I think David is saying we have done all the right things so far – and ahead of the US and France. We all know the last chapter has not been written.
Yeah! Whatabout this, whatabout that, whatabout the other… blah blah blah! FFS never heard such absolute shite.
Any evidence of Boris being in bed with Russian money? How much Russian money do Labor receive?
Which other money can be attributed to UK politics from countries other than Russia?
As usual you are advocating sending the situation to crisis point on the world stage not on a local stage, what would you have done different in the Cuban missile crisis? Im sure the world would not be as it is if you had been making those decisions back then!
In the Cuban missile crisis JFK played hard ball with the Soviets & both sides eventually backed down. With the Ukraine we’ve been so weak that Russia is running rampant, nothing we said or did detered the invasion, Russian victory delayed/stopped only by Ukraine’s amazing resistance & Russia’s own incompetance. Even so Ukraine is being left hanging. Nobody wants MAD but what we’ve done is thrown away most of our leverage declaring no to any intervention from the start. For all we are doing we’re allowing Ukraine to be ravaged, thousands killed on both sides, millions displaced & failing to honour our agreement with Ukraine for giving up their nukes.
All parties that have taken Russian money need to declare that openly. Boris at the very least is known to have accepted payment to play tennis with a Russian Oligarch, or his wife. That’s well known & many experts believe there’s far more substance to Russian money buying influence here.
Only the Tories have been in power since Russia stole & annexed the Crimea & started succesion in the Donbas, dismembering Ukraine who they also promised to guarantee the integrety of in exchange for giving up nukes. They are the ones who’ve caused the majority of Ukrainians & many other ex-Soviet/Russian empire nations to want so fervently not to be under Russian dominion any more.
How casually you leave a whole nation to endure terrible war just to avoid a terrible risk that even Putin wouldn’t be stupid enough to go through with. In the realpolotik of brinkmanship you don’t fold at the first threats.
So shall we continue to let Russia escalate unfettered just because it’s Ukraine & not a NATO or EU nation & far from us, or shall we try something that will make Putin blink & try to bring an end to the agression asap? If we bow to “Might is right” now we’ll just be fueling many more bloody episodes down the line.
Personally I believe the world will end according to God’s plans, not in nuclear war. If we’re too self centered to effectively stand up for other peoples lives & freedoms, one day we’ll be consumed ourselves.
Ukraine is being left hanging? Come on wake up, most the Western world is supporting Ukraine, everything from money, supplies, military aid, intelligence etc other than declaring war on Russia they are doing an awful lot. It is not being ‘casually left hanging’
Exactly in the Cuban crisis effectively to use the buzz word a line was drawn, in that instance a line of ships. The same idea has been put in place here, Russia attacks a Nato country that is the line. What you are advocating is the West piles over its own line to escalate everything. In the Cuban crisis this would have effectively been the US ships opening fire on the Russia ships opposite.
So Russian dodgy money has only existed since Crimea got taken in 2014 is what you are saying?
Exactly making Putin ‘blink’ is what needs to be avoided, blinking can result in a very different person when the eyes re-open.
Ah that explains the blase attitude ‘gods plans’, I am glad we have had these exchanges over the past couple of weeks as its taken time to get to an understanding of what you are advocating. Sadly its an area we will also disagree massively on.
Personally I am going to continue to believe in what exists and the now as opposed to putting the fate of the world in a complete unknown and faith.
Hi James, During the Cuban missile crisis in 1962 – US ships did fire on Russian submarines. And an American U2 high-altitude spy-plane was shot-down over the island.
The U2 was over enemy territory when it got hit so they cant really have expected much else.
Didnt the altercations with submarines use training depth charges as opposed to actual depth charges that would have damaged them?
Hi James, Yes – the US Navy forced three Soviet “Foxtrot” subs to the surface through a combination of small practice depth-charges and exhaustion of the subs’ batteries.
Only ever remember reading about one being forced to the surface, but im sure that was one that had a nuclear equipped torpedo which they decided not to use in retaliation? Or am I mixing real life up with a film script!?
James – A source for the three Soviet subs.
” ……. 31 October … the U.S. Navy forced to the surface a Soviet submarine, which unbeknownst to the Navy, was carrying a nuclear-tipped torpedo. This was the third surfacing of a Soviet submarine during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
After a day of persistent tracking by the U.S. destroyer, the Charles P. Cecil, commanded by Captain Charles Rozier, Soviet submarine B-36, commanded by Captain Aleksei Dubivko, exhausted its batteries forcing it to come to the surface.
On 27 and 30 October respectively, U.S. Navy anti-submarine warfare (ASW) forces surfaced Soviet submarines B-59 and B-130″.
The Submarines of October (gwu.edu)
National Security Archive
nsarchive.gwu.edu
JFK got the USN to blockade Cuba. It wasn’t very hard – and was virtually without risk to USN. We can’t do the same – no sea around Ukraine.
Graham – Ukraine does have a coast-line on the Black Sea.
On the subject of risk –
Today, the West does seem to approaching this crisis with a risk-free approach – and Putin’s pronouncements seem to have reduced it to relative timidity.
I don’t want WW3, or direct military action between NATO and Russia, but there is a feeling that the Western powers could push this a bit harder. The full power and weight of the West (economic, security etc) has yet to be fully deployed against this Russian aggression.
Alan, you make some good points. Perhaps I was too brief and maybe too shallow. I think the point I was making was that JFK was perceived as tough and resolute yet adopted a more dove-like strategy than his hawkish military chiefs advocated.
The naval blockade of Cuba was straightforward to implement and was less risky than NATO implementing a NFZ over Ukraine or Poland supplying MiG29s via the US to the Ukrainian AF – or trying to interpose NATO armour between Russian columns and Ukrainian cities and troops.
It is hard to see what NATO/The West can do to step up the pressure on Putin to call a halt without heading towards WW3. Lobbying China to intercede has only just started – maybe that might work.
Good to debate with you, Graham.
So you would have volunteered the UK in a shooting war?
I doubt more than a handful of British voters would agree with you or applauded Johnson if he was foolish enough to do so, let alone our NATO partners.
Britain cannot deploy into Ukraine without NATO decision and accompanying Allies, especially US. Unrealistic to expect otherwise.
The UK approach has been a disaster from start to end. The only thing they got right was the handing over of weapons after other nations had done it. Which agreed was a huge plus.
We confirmed we wouldn’t get involved.
We delayed putting sanctions in place until the Russians got their money out of the country. Way after other countries including the EU and US.
Liz Truss insulted Putin. Not a good way to open peace dialogs
We were not invited to the negotiations involving the EU and US.
The US leaked that their considered Boris a secruity threat due to his links to Putin.
Outside the UK our position has been weakened not strengthened.
Totally agree Steve, except I would say that the UK government were one of the first to ship arms.
The US and a few others did it first, but yeah I’m impressed that we did anything. Considering the lack of leadership during covid/brexit negotiations etc, it is a one plus from this goverment. I’m wondering if the defence sec just did it and got permission afterwards, as it’s very out of character.
Leadership during Brexit simply wasnt allowed until this current government got in and appointed someone to start to deal with it so thats a mistaken statement. Prior to Frost getting the position to deal with the shambles zero focus was put on actually trying to sort it out and much more focus was placed on trying to do another referendum and to derail the entire thing!
Must be an annoyance that they got the vaccine roll out done well and much earlier than most other countries!
The vaccine roll out is nonscence, we were still a member of the EU medicine agency at the time due to the transition period. Plus other EU members beat us.
I’m not saying brexit is good or bad but this governments handling is a mess. We are still threatening to trigger a clause (that does doesn’t say what they say it does), over the Irish border. This was the agreement boris and frost negotiated and now want to rip up, saying they didn’t understand it. Brexit is far from done.
Just look at the mess at our ports etc or pop to your local supermarket to know that the UK gov hasn’t prepared properly for brexit even though they had close to 5 years and still not ready.
Which EU members beat us please? Also we had absolutely no legal binding links to the EU medicine agency hence contracts got signed with Vaccine suppliers completely outside of the EU’s own vaccine procurement plan, remember the one that the opposition ridiculed the conservatives for not joining?
The Northern Ireland protocol was never going to be simple and the EU are far from handling it in an easy way either, you cant just blame it on the UK. Some of the threats from the UK side arent ideal but to be honest why shouldnt they make threats, the EU made enough since 2016 to then sit moaning they are getting some back.
Sorry but have you been in other countries recently? An awful lot doesnt appear in a number of places due to supply chain issues which is a global pandemic problem and not a UK Brexit issue.
Sorry.
Brexit is done? Fact linky? Northern Ireland issues settled perhaps? Nope.
£350m being fed into the NHS? Nope.
Entering fantastic trade deals? Nope.
Brexit is a complete cluster.
Meanwhile, define we rolled out the vaccine bravo sierra faster than… most… other countries, facts? Links? I know they don’t exist.
How many died… more… than in most other countries.
Sorry, did I say Brexit was done?
Did I say the Northern Ireland issues are settled? Will they ever be settled and had they been settled before Brexit was even a thing?
What part of the vaccine rollout wasnt quicker than most other EU countries? We all saw the figures in the news for months that the UK was way ahead of all of the EU (except for possibly Hungary but I might be wrong on that one) so yes the facts and links do exist as it was all over the news for months.
Yes more died than in most other countries as most of the deaths happened before the vaccine existed, oh and of course the UK has a higher population that most other countries, coincidence?
Lets also not get into the lies told on both sides before the referendum as both remain and leave told a catalogue of them each, much like the propaganda going on in the Ukraine and Russia, is two sides to everything.
Well if trade deals as in the fact we have kept on dealing with most countries as was is a disaster then obviously being an EU member with the trade deals we had previously could also be defined as a complete cluster then can it not?
The US administration wants a united Ireland first and the UK to return to the EU second. I’m quite comfortable with us disappointing them on both counts. In fact i’m far more comfortable with the current relationship between the UK and the US than ever in my whole life. We share the same enemies but we are not friends.
Biden and his Administration want 2 things a united Ireland and the UK back in the EU. I’m very comfortable with us disappointing them on both counts. Delaying sanctions ? Like banning the import of Russian oil which the EU has no intention of doing. The US administration considers Boris a security threat due to his links to to Putin ? Does any other country consider that to be true ? Does Putin consider that to be true ? Outside the UK our position has been weakened ? Today there is a meeting of J.E.F. in London. All in all I am happier with our relationship with the US than I have ever been. We share mostly the same enemies our Intell and armed forces co-operate closely and effectively but politically we are no longer in a ‘special relationship’ about which I will say nothing as strong language is not appropriate on this site.
I suspect if you did a poll of the UK and asked would you support a united Ireland, if the people of northern Ireland wanted it and almost everyone would vote yes. In the long run it will happen, and it will be good for everyone if we get to a point where it can. So what’s wrong with the US wanting it, that has been the position of the US gov for decades. The only issue is if they interfere with our polictics to make it happen, which they do not appear to be doing, at least not that I am aware of.
Well Steve thankfully most people in Northern Ireland wish to remain part of the UK.
Agree Les and disagree with Steve. The USA under dementia Bidden and the EU can bugger off. It is upto the people of Norrhern Ireland to decide (peacefully and democratically) whether they remain part of the UK or join a united Ireland.
No one else has a right to make this decision or try to force that decision. At the moment Northern Ireland and Ireland have the best of both worlds. The current status qou is definitely able to be maintained in a state of peace and co operation for foreseable future.
Absolutely if the people of a country decide peacefully and democratically whether or not they wish to remain part of the UK. No one else should feel that they have the right to make or force that decision either way.
Then give them the vote, right?
Link?
Last poll was December.
54% Stay British, 46% united Ireland.
However the responses to the other questions are more interesting, only 33% thought the UK government wanted Northern Ireland to remain part of the UK.
88% thought that Brexit was a bad decision and had directly led to shortages of food and other goods.
67% thought that Brexit had increased the chances of NI leaving the UK.
The EU is heading into very stormy financial waters. I think that there could be a possibility that, as a package, Ireland leaves the EU, unites with NI and becomes part of a British Isles trading block.
There isn’t the slightest possibility of any of that happening. .
You are deluded.
Ask Biden how he’d feel if we supported an independent Texas, or the UK’s official position was Alaska should be part of Canada? Biden doesn’t get to rearrange the chairs round our table.
Exactly, throw in the California hot potato aswell!
Sorry about that the first reply must have gone for adjudication. Thought I hadn’t pressed submit.
Not being in negotiations is a consequence of us being outside the eu. Instead of being at the table we will sometimes be outside in the hall peeping through the servants hatch.
How much weight we had at the eu table I don’t care to speculate but anything is better than nothing.
What Steve said.
Disagree completely, they have got lots right with this.
Everyone confirmed they wouldnt get involved, did you want the UK to go to war on its own against Russia?
So what sanctioning individuals, most of the assets that have in the UK is property, that is not something they would have liquidated over night is it? Same as companies they have set up they cant be sold in a week. The UK was pushing to exclude Russia from SWIFT, the EU stalled repeatedly over this. The UK sanctioned Russian banks, closed its airspace to Russian aircraft, closed its ports to Russian ships. You know the things that help the Russian economy which funds the war. Rushing sanctions in on a few individuals who will hold the majority of liquid i.e cash wealth in other tax havens was not exactly a priority. Has Cyprus done a mass sanctioning on individuals?
Macron’s charade of taking up days of Putin’s time was more insulting to everyone than Truss turning up and making no progress.
The UK is doing a lot on the front for this and no our position has not been weakened at all.
Where do you buy the kool aid?
Completely agree. Don’t like boris personally but he has hard time as PM and U.K. got this spot on and has taken lead while Biden does very little
Agreed. 👍
These Typhoons should be flying OVER Ukraine, enforcing a NFZ, backed up by F35. Today we read that Mariupol has 20,000 dead civilians with bodies in the streets. How much longer are Biden and the West going to sit on their hands and let the massacres go on?
With the Chinese reportedly about to supply Russia with weaponry and finance, now is the time to act decisively. Biden’s sanctions did not deter Putin from invading Ukraine. Sanctions have not stopped the fighting, they just make the politicans feel better. NATO must intervene to protect civilians.
Completely agree. How many more Ukrainians have to die, how many more cities have to be razed to the ground, before we take action? We hear that the Russian offensive is not proceeding as planned, and that morale amongst its soldiers is low – the imposition of a now fly zone by NATO could damage it further, and perhaps might give Putin pause to realise that the West isn’t weak and timid, but is unified and ready to defend a sovereign European nations right to exist.
There hasn’t been any independent confirmation of large number of civilian deaths. Ukraine are playing the disinformation game just as Russia are. Facts are hard to come by, for obvious reasons.
Hi Steve, With respect, there are some “facts” that we can surely agree on.
Based on what journalists have reported, and what we’re seeing every night on TV/Social Media – I think we can accept there are a “large number” of Ukrainian civilian casualties. (And strangely there appear no civilian deaths in Russia!)
And I do find it difficult to see much equivalence between Ukrainian and Russian forms of news management.
Disagree. UN HCR are accurate as are Red Cross. The numbers of slaughtered/ murdered civilians is high. Disinformation game is mostly being played by Russia. The Ukranians have been so far proven to not exagerate fatalities or acts of war crimes beyond what you would normal expect a country facing a murderous war of aggression would normally be expected to be stating.
Ouite agree Mr Ball Russian disinformation is how Putin has kept power in his new Soviet styled Realm if the truth were too be spoken in his Utopia your freedom would be at jeopardy and you’d be called a Holigan and 15yrs behind bars
Putin has the power to destroy Germany’s economy with a telephone call. The U.N. is stymied by Russia’s veto; the E.U. and N.A.T.O. will do nothing to expose Germany. However, … who cares about Germany? Create refugee safe areas in western Ukraine. Tell Putin to do his worse.
David, I agree – I think the West can do more, and those actions need not lead to WW3.
Indeed some people, like Gary Kasparov (ex-chess World Champion, democracy activist), argue that WW3 has already started! His Twitter Account is worth checking out.
I’ve posted before on Greg Bagwell’s views on a No Fly Zone (NFZ). He is a retired RAF Air Marshall – and has commanded NFZs in the past. See his Twitter feed for more details. To be fair, a NFZ is not his preferred choice – but he outlines options that need not lead to an automatic escalation to World War, including limited NFZs over parts of Ukraine.
As Kasparov states: NATO has the weapons but appears to lack courage, Ukraine has the courage – but has no weapons!
And I agree about Biden’s lack of courage. The whole world realised that Biden was weak and his team incompetent when the Americans surrendered and chaotically withdrew from Afghan. Putin then saw his chance and invaded Ukraine
Since Biden won the presidency the N Koreans have tested 3 ICBMs, while they perfect MIRV technology Biden sits on his hands. Iran now has 100kg of enriched uranium. Biden’s response? He lifted their sanctions.
Biden shows no leadership at all. What would get Putin’s attention would be if the USAF started flying large numbers of warplanes into Europe from the continental USA. And if a convoy with 50,000 US troops started forming up with NATO escorts off New York. Thats called deterence
Wouldnt need to transport troops by sea. They can be flown in by Boeing 747 or airbus 400 at a time. Only munitions and heavy equipment need to come by sea and as we are not at war they dont need convoy protection yet. US sealift command are easily able to transport heavy weaponry around the world.
If they wanted UK support some of our Ro Ro lift ships (x3) could support but that would be a token gesture compared to USN abilities.
Mr Bell……?is there a way for Ukraine SF’s to bring some destruction to Russia or Belarus …. take the fight to the opponents home land….perhaps with the help on some “security contractors”
Thanks Ian
We are no longer a superpower. We will always supply a fraction of the US effort. That is well known.
Biden is a wanker- that is all.
Americans only found out what that word means thanks too Phil Collins in an episode of Miami Vice Grizzler
Its interesting as Putin has used nuclear blackmail very effectively against dementia Joe and he blinked first. Result was USA, NATO said they would not fight Russia in Ukraine. Giving Putin carte blanche to attack.
If we had said we would guarentee Ukraine’s independence as a soverign democratic and free country outside of NATO. Putin would not have dared to invade.
Russia has used up its limited stores of expensive precision munitions and due to sanctions cant manufacture more. So they turn to China for resupply. I wouldnt be surprised if the Chinese obtain Russian hypersonic and cruise missile technology as a result so they can manufacture Russian weaponry.
Russias prosecution of the Ukraine war has been piss poor. Lacking in strategic air offensive. Lacking in combined arms tactics. Lacking in air superiority and air dominance and resorting to crude massed rocket launcher and heavy artillery strikes.
The war has demonstrated that Russia conventional military we have very little to fear.
I agree with your sentiments, Mister Bell.
Personally, I’m finding it very difficult to see NATO hiding so completely behind Article 5 legalese.
Apparently, a Russian attack on Vilnius will be met with a vigorous response, yet (by its actions) the bombing of Kiev is somehow deemed tolerable by NATO. Both cities are European capitals, both countries are Western – and the freedoms of both should be defended against an aggressive bully.
Furthermore, one can’t fail to be impressed by the spirit and courage of Ukrainians. These are inspirational people that deserve support from the full power and weight of the West – yet still do not have it.
During the Georgian War in 2008, it’s claimed by Saakashvili that Russian tanks on the road to Tbilisi were stopped when it was leaked that Cheney was favour of cruise missile attacks on Russian forces.
I don’t want WW3, but I believe our leaders have been spooked into timidity by Putin’s rhetoric. I think the West needs to reclaim some of the initiative in this crisis.
I agree entirely- I have said all along it is naught but appeasement to hide behind the not in NATO bullshit.
Still we’ve done a good job of perfecting that aspect of ‘dplomacy’ since the Russian annexation of Crimea I suppose.
The yanks donlt care unless China gets involved then they will expect everyone else help- and we as lappoodles will give it.
Biden is worse than Chamberlain. At least Chamberlain had the guts to give Germany an ultimatum and declare war. No more red lines is his administrations watchword. He wont enjoy Brussels NATO conference next week.
Good point. NATO has intervened in many different conflicts without Article 5 being called.
I disagree, putin would of invaded no matter what nato did. If we moved into Ukraine, Russia would not suddenly stop and go home. Look at putins history and the way he acts when pushed. Nothing would stop his invasion. The only thing that may of changed would be how far into Ukraine he would of went.
I don’t doubt he would go nuclear as well. He personally would be safe and most likely has enough supplies put away to live in luxury for the next 100 years.
Well in that case, Monkey Spanker, if NATO is no deterrent – then we can expect Putin to invade the Baltic States next.
Russian artillery is the problem. The Turkish drones are helping but would it help to fit JDAM to the Ukrainain airforce planes. Is this possible?
Agree – certainly Ukraine has made far better use of drones + precision guided munitions, at least on the battlefield, than Russia has. Russia has apparently started to try and catch up in that area in recent days with a few operations of their own like that.
More TB2 drones + PGMs would increase Ukraine’s sortie rate and Russia’s casualty rate. I also think I would transfer those Mig-29s but wouldn’t announce it publicly, just do it and refer to “unspecified package of defensive military aid to Ukraine” or some other diplomatic language. Going to need them I think to help Ukraine secure it’s Western airspace and protect supply lines from the West.
I read that the Mig 29 deal was personally vetoed by Biden because the aircraft would need to be delivered via a US base in Germany, presumably to be ‘de-nato’d’.
This sounds pretty lame to me. Why can’t this be done in Poland say and the aircraft directly flown to their Ukraine base?
Because Poland didnt want to be involved. The reason for giving the jets to the US was so Poland could argue they didn’t realise the US was going to hand them over to Russia.
How the US was to do the trade without risking another border country is anyone’s guess and seems the US gov agreed it was impossible.
Poland not wanting to be involved is something I hadn’t heard. I thought the reason was that Biden didn’t want the jets to transit through Ramstein, a US base. I thought deal being proposed was using the Migs as part-ex for the purchase of F-16s. The idea would have been to remove NATO features in case they got into Russian hands? Then give them to Ukraine. As Gareth says I still can’t see why they can’t quietly find their way Lviv. They would be useful even without PGMs.
Poland could have given those mig 29s too Moldova who would then passed them on too Ukraine a non NATO helping another Non NATO Country Paul
It is because Poland does not want to fan the flames any more than they are currently doing. On the border of Poland and Belarus. There is a huge Russian mechanized force backed up with Belarus’s. According to images from social media, this is believed to be Russia’s elite units of the guard divisions, i.e. the ones with the most up to date T90s etc. Why they are sat there near the border can be for only one reason. To pressurise NATO into not doing anything. As this force could quickly turn north towards Lithuania or make a push for the Sulwalki gap and link up with Kaliningrad. The Kremlin has said that giving Ukraine these aircraft would be tantamount to extending the conflict. Which can mean many things, including pushing their units out of Belarus towards NATO.
If Poland had kept the announcement quiet, had the aircraft painted in Ukrainian colours and then have them magically appear in Ukraine. There would have been deniability on Poland’s and NATO’s part. Russia would have suspected where they came from, but without firm evidence, they wouldn’t have been able to say anything.
It is similar to how NATO fcuked up, with stating that no NATO forces will be involved in the Ukraine conflict. They should have said nothing. Thereby leaving the possibility that they might if a red line was crossed etc. As soon as the Kremlin heard that, it was a green light for them to push harder.
Yes to all that you say but also consider what I posted above about the Rockwell Collins system they run on!
That is a good point. The standard NATO aircraft data-bus is the 1553, but for stores is the Mil-Std-1760, which is based on 1553 architecture. If this is the case, it would then make it incompatible with Soviet era weapon systems. I don’t know if the pylons etc would be capable of containing both types of data-bus wiring and connectors. Though in theory, I don’t see why not! Not sure how that would then work with the weapons computer.
There is some information here
https://defence24.com/polish-mig-29-jet-fighters-modernised-fulcrums-compliant-with-the-nato-standards
Flight Global also covered it but that is behind a paywall.
Ah ok, doesn’t mention anything about including the weapons data-bus. So they probably just included a basic 1553 for the nav system and cockpit avionics. Thereby allowing it to still use Soviet era/Russian weapons.
Other sources reference electro optical systems which suggests that the weapons system was also upgraded.
Given Poland had F16s and would have known how relatively useless the MiG29’s systems were it would have seemed odd to retain them?
I’m not so sure. The Mig does have an EO IRST sensor in front of the cockpit front windscreen. There are also other references where Ukraine and Poland collaborated on further development of the R27-R1 missile, thereby meaning they’ve kept their original weapons computer and data-bus. I can’t find any references to the radar being upgraded. Only the cockpit with digital displays (provided by Russia) instead of analogue, a new nav computer, NATO compatible IFF (BAe), new comms which will likely include a crypto terminal and the 1553B data-bus. I can’t find anything relating to using NATO weapons.
I agree that Poland and Ukraine did collaborate on a few MiG projects.
It is fun to speculate but without seeing it there is no way of knowing!
Agreed. If only Poland had kept its trap shut, Ukraine could have had those aircraft by now!
Interesting isn’t it that Biden veto’d the sale but Poland opened their mouths .
Did they do it just so Biden would veto it , thus keeping face with their near neighbours but knowing it was a non starter?
Wheels within wheels
Oh dear! ( spits feathers quietly).
Agreed, DaveyB.
http://www.oryxspioenkop.com would seem to confirm that tanks losses all seem to be T72 or T80 apart from a few T90A (which at one point Russia seem happy to hand over to Syria, were a number were knocked out by TOW) I did see one source that suggested that Russia only had ~100 of the latest T90M. It does seem odd they are holding them back. no sign of the BMPT Terminator yet which would seem suited to urban combat ?
The Polish jets have got a Rockwell Collins avionics core. Look it up – it is open sourced that they modified them locally.
The Polish MiGs are anything other than vanilla MiG29’s. I suspect they can use NATO weapons including JDAM hence why Ukraine wants them
Poland can’t give that to Ukraine as it is restricted under FMS.
Conversely that is why US won’t want them as they will be dropping US sourced heavy stuff on Russian positions…..
Illuminating. Thx. Look like the Turkish drones are the only way to target the heavy artillery then.
Were there is a will there is a way, the French are still supplying the Russians with state of the art cameras and lasers for the Russian tanks and aircraft so why cant we send the Polish Migs over the border to Ukraine. Sleepy Joe dose not want to get his hands dirty so let the people who want to stand up and take on Putin and his puppets have a say, even if it is just to secure a corridor to help the masses get out of the way of the Russian offensive.
I can’t believe they will be supplying Russia with that now-surely thats against all sanctions.
In fact why have they been doing it at all? If they have I suggest we bomb france…
Unfortunatelty the Wests combined lack of action following Crimea annexation in 201 just proved to Putin he can go a step further so he has.
The land grab he will get from Ukraine will only serve to show him his new foreign policy is a rewarding one,
It has been all over the French news stations today that France has been supplying Russia with camera’s and lasers for its tanks and aircraft since 2008 and as it was signed before the Crimea invasion the contracts are not subject to the sanctions. I have no doubt that with in a short time period the French will stop this as it is in the lime light now, but I just wonder who else is profiteering from this as I very much doubt that the French are alone in this.
So why can’t we give the Ukrainians some air power piloted by Ukrainian pilots, the USAF have been looking to get rid of the A10’s for some time now. !!!
This is typical of the French. The whores of the West; and so it goes on.
Putin said. If any country supports Ukraine with acquisition of high performance jets Russia considers that a hostile act and will respond.
Instead of calling Putins bluff Bidden yet again backed down. He is the 21st century’s great appeaser. Only going to embolden our enemies further.
Trump would have sent hundreds of jets to baltic states. Poland. Romania. Bulgaria and armoured divisions. Whilst calling on EU to do the same. Not that I liked Trump but you need a strong president able to face down other countries. Bidden seems to not fully appreciate the sheer might of the US military. So he sits on his hands and is a peacetime president in a time of war.
Who knows what Trump would have done? I’m ok with the NATO response. I would like to see us replace Ukrainian Mig 29 losses plus ‘spares’.
Understand that deploying JDAM to take out artillery pieces would likely result in Putin using even more indiscriminate high explosive. Situation is delicate if a ceasefire can be negotiated.
If we were to send it I’m not sure Starstreak is much better than Stingers – a bit longer range perhaps. That said I note that Starstreak comes as a shoulder launched version, a 3 round pillar launcher and has a vehicle launched option. I think the launchers will also launch LMM Martlets, which is an interesting option.
Yes, the command unit can fire either Martlet or Starstreak. Both missiles use the same variation of SACLOS.
Starstreak will give the Russians a major headache. As it fills the gap between MANPANDS and short range air defence. It is a bit of a disservice to call it VSHORAD. It can be used as a point defence system against high speed low flying aircraft or ones that enter its 10k kill zone. Plus, it has significantly more capability of engaging aircraft at higher altitudes, compared to MANPADS. There is practically no way it can be decoyed and jamming it is very hard.
JDAM as far as I can tell, cannot be used by the Polish Mig-29s.
The Poles have supplied over 60 R73 short range air to air missiles to Ukraine.
ok, so I read that as saying Starstreak is what we do if we are not doing the Migs.
Would LMM offer anything of value compared to Javelin?
Yes definitely. I believe Martlet (LMM) is quite a bit cheaper than Javelin. It has a longer range at around 8km compared to 4km, but it is not fire and forget as per Javelin, because it uses a variation of the SACLOS guidance method. Unlike Javelin it only has a single combined effects fragmentary and shaped charge warhead, as it primary target when fired by a Wildcat, is unarmoured fast inshore attack craft (FIAC), like the Iranian Republican Guard uses. Javelin has a tandem shaped charge warhead, it’s designed to defeat MBTs protected by explosive reactive armour (ERA). Javelin can also do top attacks, whereas as far as I know, Martlet is direct attack.
Martlet also has a higher terminal speed. So combined with its longer range. It can target aircraft, depending on their speed, track and bearing up to around 600 knots at low level. Javelin can target helicopters in flight. I think it’s best use would be targeting UAVs, thereby saving Starstreak for faster stuff. It can easily defeat BRDM, BTR, BMP and other armoured vehicles that don’t use ERA, again saving Javelin for MBTs.
Thanks for that. Sounds like the way to go. Today’s MOD Intelligence Briefing remarks that the Russians are sticking to the roads and suffering high losses; that the Ukrainians are mounting some counter offensives and that the Russians are scrabbling around to increase the number of troops from far away places. 8km is within the horizon in flat country and beyond most return gunfire I think.
See my earlier reply on this thread for my opinion of Biden …
oh what the hell I’ll say it again.
Biden is a wanker….thats is all 😉
I get the vibe you don’t like Biden, Grizzler! 😀
Well actually, going on his previous actions, Trump would have withheld aid and support unless Ukraine could supply compromising material against Democrats. He would have said it was nothing to do with America, it was a European problem. He would probably have pulled America out of the NATO alliance. As he thinks Putin is a genius and that Crimea and Donbas belong to Russia he would not have intervened. Being a Russian asset, he would have likely secretly briefed Putin on American and NATO responses.
Why not give the Ukraine some Warthogs? Low tech. Look, forget Biden he’s a joke and will be booted out after November with 10th amendment.
“Trump would have sent hundreds of jets to baltic states. Poland. Romania. Bulgaria and armoured divisions.”
Trump just a couple of weeks ago called Putin a genius for invading Ukraine. But yet you believe he would have done anything other than continue to polish Putin’s rear end every chance he gets. Please keep in touch with reality.
Agree. I would just do it and make not announcement whatsoever. I imagine the Ukrainians are getting a huge intelligence uplift but saying nothing is best.
Hi Paul P
How about JDAM on the Turkish drones ?
Ian
Good question. Predator can do it so it must be technically possible. The impression I am getting is that the US does not want this to happen because it sees use of JDAM as a provocative escalation perhaps because it is an integrated weapons system; its destructive power and its being an offensive weapon. The Russian missiles are using GPS targeting and Stinger and Javelin manpads are using I/R fire and forget. NLAW is short range and visually guided. I think what they are trying to do ( by sticking to infantry weapons) is not to give Putin an excuse to say I told you so, NATO is the aggressor.
So by that logic, shoulder launched Starstreak is fine; multiple tube pillar launcher is marginal and a vehicle mounted multiple launcher loaded with LMM would require a call to the White House 🙂
Tornado nuclear replacement announced x35.
“The F-35s will replace Germany’s aging fleet of Tornados, the only planes in the Luftwaffe’s inventory capable of carrying US nuclear bombs that are stored in the country in case of war breaking out in Europe.
The decision to buy F-35s is significant as it will make Germany’s air force more compatible with the rest of NATO and other European defense partners who either operate or intend to purchase F-35s.
The US Defense Department said earlier this year that US Air Force F-35As in Europe would be certified to deploy the nuclear bombs before 2023.
The F-35 comes in three versions, A, B and C, with just the F-35A being outfitted with nuclear capabilities.”
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/15/europe/germany-f-35-fighter-jets-replace-tornado-intl/index.html
Oct. 5, 2021 | By Abraham Mahshie
“American deterrence efforts came one step closer to a critical new level when the Air Force proved a stealth fighter is capable of delivering a tactical nuclear weapon inside hostile territory, Air Combat Command confirmed Oct. 4.
The F-35A is the first fifth-generation fighter to near certification as a nuclear-capable platform after completing the first full weapon system demonstration and completing the nuclear design certification process.
During the demonstration, two F-35s dropped B61-12 Joint Test Assemblies (JTAs), which mimic a real-world tactical gravity nuclear weapon, at the Tonopah Test Range in Nevada.”
https://www.airforcemag.com/f-35-completes-final-test-for-nuclear-capable-b61-series-weapons/
“American deterrence efforts came one step closer to a critical new level when the Air Force proved a stealth fighter is capable of delivering a tactical nuclear weapon inside hostile territory, Air Combat Command confirmed Oct. 4.
The F-35A is the first fifth-generation fighter to near certification as a nuclear-capable platform after completing the first full weapon system demonstration and completing the nuclear design certification process.
During the demonstration, two F-35s dropped B61-12 Joint Test Assemblies (JTAs), which mimic a real-world tactical gravity nuclear weapon, at the Tonopah Test Range in Nevada.”
https://www.airforcemag.com/f-35-completes-final-test-for-nuclear-capable-b61-series-weapons/
But good news, Nigel – reportedly also more Typhoons to be ordered by Germany (including an ECR version).
Hopefully, we will purchase more Typhoons also given the threats to us from Russia and quite possibly China later this decade.
a few Marte ER wouldn’t go a miss either!
Digital Means Adaptable
“Importantly, the Typhoon’s advanced, reprogrammable EW suite allows the aircraft to react to a constantly-changing threat environment in ways that physical stealth cannot.
Consider today’s threats. The latest surface-to-air missile systems are having their hardware regularly upgraded, are being networked and can change their behaviour almost instantaneously via software reprogramming.
In short, they are constantly evolving, creating a dynamic and challenging threat environment.
This means that the advantage of aircraft which use traditional physical stealth technology, which is designed to make the aircraft hard-to-observe by threat radar systems, is eroding. Counter-stealth techniques are on the rise and have been successfully employed as far back as 1993.
“These threat systems are being updated more regularly and are frequently networked, allowing them to share intelligence of the air situation.
EW systems are able to evolve to deal with this dynamic and rapidly changing threat, in a way that fifth-generation stealthy aircraft cannot.
While stealth aircraft are hard to detect, they are not invisible, and counter-stealth technology is developing rapidly.
Moreover, the skin, internal structure, and configuration of an aircraft cannot be easily altered. “You cannot easily modify a stealth platform to counter new high-end threats,” Hewer said.”
INigal thanks for outlay t’s all great updating software and in theatre capabilities , but with a dictator at the other end 1 EMP burst would take us back to piston prop Age ,and People like Putin when or if cornered Jumps at the threat regardless of the short term outcome its how he’s wired so too speak
Do I need to explain how radar absorbent materials (RAM) and coatings work?
Or do I need to explain how radar detects aircraft that are not stealthy and those that are?
It will be a long one.
Im not sure what the reference to 1993 is. But up until the public release of the F117 in 1988, were people really aware of radar stealth and its implications. Even within the USAF at the time, there was very little knowledge of the F117, as it was a development of a black program called Have Blue. Not until the F117 ripped apart Sadam’s so called world class multilayered air defenses, did the militaries around the World sit up and take real notice.
A lot of the reasons why one F117 was shot down and another was damaged. Was the USAF’s absolute belief that the aircraft could not be tracked. So they flew the same mission profiles daily. Allowing the Serbs to build a flight profile of the aircraft and place SAMs along the predicted path.
Funnily it was the older SA-3s tracking radar and not its long wave search radar that got the hits on the F117. The newer SA-5s radar could not see it. But these were at ranges of less than 10km. At the time the F117 could only use laser guided weapons. So had to fly near the target.
A stealthy aircraft will always have the advantage over a ground based and even an airborne radar, due to how radar works. Even mobile HF radars can be found and destroyed due to their very detectable signature.
Whoever Hewer is, they do not know their arse from their elbow, to make such a bold statement. The physics behind an electromagnetic wave and how a transmitted photon interacts with a material before it’s return to the receiver. Has been theorized and researched since the 1900’s. But not really put into practice regarding stealth applications until the last 40 years.
There is no magic that says tomorrow stealth is no linger relevant. There is a constant struggle between the radar’s effective radiated power, filtering and signal processing versus the material’s absorption properties. When one seems to have an advantage the other quickly develops to counter it.
Hello DaveyB,You could explain how CAMM missiles are able to detect and destroy stealth aircraft.
“Flying at supersonic speeds, CAMM missiles can destroy modern air threats including stealth aircraft and high-speed missiles. Each CAMM family missile is equipped with an advanced active radar seeker that can see even the smallest, fastest and stealthiest targets through the worst weather and the heaviest electronic jamming.” Defence Secretary Ben Wallace said:
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/britain-and-poland-to-work-together-on-polish-air-defence-system/
“Do I need to explain how radar absorbent materials (RAM) and coatings work? Or do I need to explain how radar detects aircraft that are not stealthy and those that are?”
Hi DaveyB, No, but you could explain this as it appears that we can see and track stealth aircraft already so there is no good reason why others cannot.
“The agreement will provide enhanced security and defence development for both countries while developing and sustaining critical skills across the missile sector in Poland and the UK.
In the UK, MBDA’s Common Anti-air Modular Missile (CAMM) family has been confirmed for the NAREW programme.
Flying at supersonic speeds, CAMM missiles can destroy modern air threats including stealth aircraft and high-speed missiles.
Each CAMM family missile is equipped with an advanced active radar seeker that can see even the smallest, fastest and stealthiest targets through the worst weather and the heaviest electronic jamming.”
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/britain-and-poland-to-work-together-on-polish-air-defence-system/
Stealth aircraft also have very capable defensive aids systems. That Nigel ignores. It’s all about managing the signature across the full range of electronic signature, IR, and airframe radar cross section. Typhoon has a low frontal radar cross section, but F22 and F35 have the all important all aspect low radar cross section, and they don’t have to dangle anything under the wings.
Exactly. For a very low observable (VLO) aircraft you need to consider the whole spectrum, therefore radar, IR, UV and optical. To some extents generated noise as well. For example the cancelled RAH-55 Comanche had one of the lowest noise signatures. As it was expected to creep up to targets to observe them. Compared to a Chinook, the Comanche was like a mouse farting in the wind!
Although not stealth aircraft, both the Rafale and Typhoon incorporated physical design measures to reduce their radar cross sections (RCS). For example gold tinted canopies to shield the cockpit and S-duct intakes. They also have include some Radar absorbent material in the leading edges. Compared to a Su27/30/35 they have 1/3 the radar cross section frontally when they are all flying clean.
When you think that the F35 has around 1/1000 (at a conservative estimate) of the RCS of a Typhoon. It kind of puts things into perspective. Even with the Luneberg lenses fitted it still has a smaller RCS. The F22 is supposed to be slightly better. Whilst the B2 is in a whole different league.
This is why I believe we will have the most formidable air defence aircraft. As we are marrying the F35 with both ASRAAM and Meteor. When the JNAAM version of Meteor comes on line. This will give it a succinct advantage against other aircraft. Dare I say even against the F22.
I think in some ways the F35 already is ahead of the F22 when it comes to air superiority capability. It’s avionics are a generation ahead, so is its APG-81 radar and the situational awareness it can generate and share with other platforms is on another level. F35 doesn’t have the brute high altitude performance and supercruise performance of the F22, its more an alpha fighter like F18 than a rate/energy fighter But it can certainly gain a tactical advantage using its sensors and stealth. Helmet mounted display and IRST are also not fitted to the F22. A missed opportunity. But F22 & F35 working together generates some unmatched capability. Typhoon with Radar 2 & F35 will also be an extremely capable duo. Glad all 3 types are on our side.
Is there any firm decision on whether to supply Starstreak?
So if the RAF bought tranche 4 Eurofighters. Which we really could do with. Could the Baltic states buy the tranche 1s? Not that i think we should be giving aircraft away that have plenty of service life left on their airframes.
Personally think we should keep tranche 1s and get some 4s as well.
Knowing our politicians tranche 1s would go the same way as The Nimrod, sliced n diced
None of the Baltic States have fast air pilots.
A bit like Ireland.
Perhaps a training school established in the UK for Irish and Baltic pilots.
Or ask the Finns/Swedes.
Afterall, the Latvians celebrate one aircraft – the Gloster Gladiator and they remember they British coming up the Daugava to protect them over 100 years ago.
Takes time, not talk, best get started.
Afternoon Chaps, if anyone has flicked through Google news feeds on their Phones today there is a story on Drones being used by Ukrainian forces DJIs, and that these Drones are being handicapped due too their Chinese software, not being fully enabled where,as The Same model used by the Russians is fully capable too carry out the task programmed if so it would look like China is indeed helping Putin
The Article in question is from a publication entitled DRONES XL
The training given by NATO troops to the Ukrainian armed forces since 2014 and the inclusion within NATO exercises is a part of this that is sometimes overlooked.
In my opinion it’s this training in nato methods based on smaller professional troops using modern weapons which has enabled the Ukrainian’s to be able to teach the many volunteers that have flocked to defend their nation themselves, giving them even more confidence.
This NATO given training is showing its worth against the methods and teachings of the Russian Federation.
They were celebrating their independence but only if they obeyed government rules. No protests were allowed on any subject.
And when one of the original signaturies to the original declaration spoke to the encumbrent politicians who didn’t like what she said they all left.
So not much change from the old ussr.
At least she wasn’t arrested but has been slated and ridiculed in the press and online.
So this is the culture everyone is celebrating.