The Status of the British Fleet

Give those old crust admirals an archer and the if they refuse, sack them

Like all the 72 sea harriers that we GAVE to the Americans.

I think it should be possible to put CAMM launchers into Navy PODS for emergencies, similar to what sits on the back of the lorry in Sky sabre. Then if we wanted to give the Rivers some missile defence during an emergency, we could stick one on each side of the ship. The only query for me is whether the Terma Scanter 2D radar is enough to get CAMM to lock on.

It’s possible, since the Rivers can carry 2x TEU’s on their flanks. But again the issue isn’t “Is it possible” but more “How much would it cost and is it worth spending the money on that instead of something else.”

(Also if anyone wants CAMM AND Harpoon/NSM….
https://navyrecognition.com/images/stories/news/2023/march/Thai_Krabi_class_OPV_HTMS_Prachuap_Khiri_Khan_fires_Harpoon_missile.jpg

I think they’d interfere with each others firing arcs as CAMM would sit directly to the port/starboard of the cannister launchers.

I don’t know which NavyPODs will be cost-benefit justifiable. Nevertheless, the Navy is committed to modularisation in various forms, and that means developing something to fit in the spaces.

That there is no explicit budget line for modular equipment, PODs or mission systems might well be an issue. The point of “CAMM in a box” is that it could be used to supplement the load out of any naval or auxiliary ship with access to a CMS and a decent radar (even controlled from another ship).

It might require the ships to be upgraded to handle POD power and data requirements and there will be all sorts of integration issues. I’m just saying I think it’s technically feasible and something worth considering.

I mean I guess, with some few caveats, like the lack of a flight deck, or the larger crew, or the 5-10 knot speed advantage that the Rivers have, or the fact that Echo and Enterprise are 20 years old and the RN has already tried flogging off the B1 Rivers that are the same age.

But yeah…

Hello, SA. Sorry, your post only cleared the attachment security hurdle last night, resulting in an email notification. It’s surprising what valid data can be tucked away on somewhat obscure sites (e.g. only started to monitor The Drive Warzone when realised it wasn’t referring to a computer game).
The reference ‘graphically highlights’ the cost/benefit subtleties involved in UK/RN vessel selection, and succinctly endorses the approval that most on UKDJ grant to the Batch 2 River OPV concept; still a de-toothed corvette in effect.
It’s possible that, since 2021, erstwhile gunboat sensitivities have reduced somewhat, especially as the arising Empire appears to have many of the soft power proclivities of Mordor, regardless of how it attempts to disguise traditional Authoritarianism at present.
To my mind the RN-MoD in particular do the best they can to supply UK with highly effective blue water platforms, based upon valuable maritime knowledge accrued over centuries, for both current & perceived contingencies, which is often derided under the familiar FFBNW mantra.
We’re now once again at – arguably beyond – that point when Parliament & the Treasury need to honour the implicit quid pro quo:-
a) now FWNecessaryWeapons
b) cease major unit capability gapping – under the pretence of future ‘wondrous things’ – until its replacement’s commissioned
Rgs

That’s true. In the unlikely event that money became available, I’d far rather see it used to put a sonar on the T31 than weapons on the B2 River’s.

Don’t forget sophistry, this Govt deliver it par excellence.

Might the Govt’s PowerPoint system also be FFBNW?

Nobody does.

If T32 was a slightly upgraded T31 and stretched(?) why as T31 is pretty big…..then I’d be pretty happy with that with Mk41/Sylvyer and plenteous CAMM silos. Keep the 57mm/40mm fit otherwise the budget blows.

The only issue is that something has got to be able to do NGFS for RM. T31/T32 is that ship and a 57mm isn’t big enough….

Is that kind of NGFS still required with modern amphibious doctrine? If you stand off and undertake unguided bombardment from 25 miles, are you not still outranged by guided anti-ship cruise missiles and be in danger of ending up like the Moskva?

If the idea is now to get your forces onto the beach fast enough to set up for self-defence before anything too nasty shows up, you’ll have to come in quite close anyway. Subsequent missile support can come from a far greater distance if required to supplement ground forces. Wouldn’t even limited numbers of ship-based CAMM-MR, NSM and air support with Martlets be better than 5″ shells?

A perfectly sensible point of view.

I wouldn’t underestimate just how far extended range large calibre munitions can travel.

I tend to agree, a report a few years back in the US pretty much determined that the whole criteria and theory for which the US was producing it’s Littoral capabilities was no longer realistic and that those new ships would in most cases be sitting ducks from the sort of guided missiles almost every terrorist group has now let alone Govt and that forces would have to operate from far further out in which case their specialist littoral ships would not be able to defend themselves in that environment and would have to be guarded by other vessels in numbers, that they were meant to operate relatively independent of, basically in their view a clusterfuck of a scenario. Even in the days of Gallipoli the planned forcing if the Dardanelles was delusional disaster, perhaps we need to be clear in the present environment what out lightweight frigates are capable of and arm them accordingly. Indeed I think the relative lightness of the guns these days is a recognition of that while trying to retain some flexibility and an understandable reluctance to fully reject such a capability before it’s time.

One of the big differences between CSG and LRG is speed. It makes me wonder if the MRSS speed needs to be increased as in many ways the vulnerability of a surprised landing is the time it takes to get the troops on to the beach.

Hezbollah have a shed load of Iranian C802 copies, which are themselves copies of Exocets. Ukraine has shown the way in how to make these missile more effective against ships hiding beyond the horizon. With the use of relatively small drones like the TB2. A ship’s defences will need to be at the top of their game, if sailing off a shore with known terrorists having anti-ship missiles.

The Moskva to be fair was asking for a slapping. According to reports half of her CIWS radars weren’t working. But perhaps more importantly the short range radars for the OSA-M radars weren’t working. Only leaving the large 3D search radars and the tracking radars for the its S300 system working. Thereby leaving her/him very vulnerable to sea skimming missiles such as the Ukrainian Neptunes. Surprisingly, Moskva had escorts, that also didn’t shoot down the TB2, used to find him and pin down his location. A massive win for Ukraine.

The 5″ naval gun be that the BAe Mk45 Mod 4 or the Leonardo 127/64 fire the same size of shell and have similar breech volume. So by rights are ammunition interchangeable. The standard 5″ HE shell has a range of around 35km (20miles). However, both of the systems were designed specifically to fire long range guided munitions, such as the Leonardo Vulcano, with a range over 70km. Nammo have also teamed up with Boeing to develop a 127mm version of their 155mm ramjet shell. Which is expected to have a effective range closer to 125km.

Naval gunfire support, is a very effective means of suppressing enemy forces in the open. Something a missile such as NSM, Sea Venom or even Martlet is not really suited for. As with artillery you can spread the beaten path to extend the diameter of the required effects. By the use of multiple shot simultaneous time on target fire. Plus 10 rounds of Vulcano is still significantly cheaper than a single NSM.

For a ship to get into standard HE range of shore targets. It will likely need to be this side of the horizon, thereby making itself easier to locate and be targeted. With the newer long range ammunition, it can remain beyond the horizon, making it harder to locate.

The Babcock stretched T31 is only 2m longer with a Merlin capable flight rather than the Chinook sized version on the B1’s. The extra space will be dedicated to a larger mission bay to allow more and or bigger autonomous vehicles to be carried, which was the thinking behind the T32 concept… The rest of the ship is unaltered so same supply chain and most of the development cost already covered.

As we know T31 is capable of carrying a bigger gun, someone just needs to make the decision. No worries there then..! Of course, if there was any joined up thinking the T26 would have got the 57mm and the T31 could have had the 5″…

An alternative to NGFS might be precision fires using SPEAR 3 or MARTLET missiles. The former could easily be developed for VL (if I remember rightly MBDA have already demonstrated a Brimstone 3 VL capability) and the latter could be used with UAV’s, given that bigger mission bay. With man-in-the-loop potential these weapons might actually be the way forward – but a lot of proving to be done first obviously. Politically the precision fires approach could hide in the noise around the complex weapons programme and the rush for autonomous vehicle whereas a bigger gun will likely run into opposition. (It’s all a game apparently!)

The Stretched T31 would make a capable platform for delivering small RM teams ashore but I suspect they would have to do it from a stand off position especially if there are mobile SSM’s within striking distance or, more likely they would look to insert the team into a more benign area.

Cheers CR

Try fitting a seaborne MLRS. Big stick would make terrorists take note.
I have little doubt that Gaza hospital bomb hit was engineered by Hamas. Timing seems too good to be true.

SB The T31 is the very 1st ship to ever be actually built in Rosyth (rather than assembled from largely pre fitted blocks). Babcock are in charge so they should have the experience but it’s early days. So I’d be more than slightly reluctant to hand them another contract till the 1st one enters service.
Lets be honest about this the last ship they put together hasn’t exactly shined when it comes to reliability.🤔

We not more good ships not more dockyard queens.

I made extra toy that point last month.

I think T31 #1 needs to have passes trials before considering another follow on batch.

maybe the t32 could just be a T31 with a 5inch gun..keep everything else the Same.then you have the batch ones with the 57mm and a more focus on close escort in enclosed seas Or general ship about town….And the batch 2s with a 5inch gun and focus on being the escorts for the littoral groups..give the batch 2s an active hull mounted sonar so they can sanitise an area around the littoral group as well as provide gunfire support..

I think you still need the 57mm for various reasons. However, a 57mm isn’t that expensive in real terms. That said, every weapons system has to be justified as this is a budget platform.

I think now this has Gaza mess has kicked off the coffee smell has fully permeated even Treasury and No 10. Even they have realised there isn’t enough capacity if things kick off.

The T23’s falling apart has been a real wake up call. Previously it was always written off as Admirals wanting exquisite new toys.

Question is ‘what can you do in the time available?’

– Upping production of reloads
– accelerate inked programs
– extend existing successful programs
– remuneration and retention

I think the parts chain has, largely, been backfilled. Although the issue with Bulwark makes me suspect STOROB went wrong taking a part from Albion to activate Bulwark. Just a guess.

Problem is that as soon as there is a dollop of money on the table some top brass get the gold plating / Gucci card out and another over complicated army system starts sucking money.

its clear the escort fleet is in pieces ( quite literally in some cases). That 45% availability on the type 23s is really telling to be honest and as you say with just a moderate amount of the shit hitting the fan there are no escorts left in the tank.

The simple reality is the RN has just sent to large important auxiliary vessels close to an active warzone without an escort in sight and the only way to get an escort to them would be to strip one from a really important standing operation or remove it from the CSG..now I know the two auxiliaries are the really useful capability but sending them to somewhere quite so high risk with out escort is…well iffy.

The eastern med is now a powder keg that is on fire….with a lot of people willing to die to make a point and let’s be honest the UK is not that far behind Israel and the US on their most hated list.

Im not sure how many more geopolitical and ship availability red flags HMG can have waved in their faces before it all actually sinks in that we really are getting to the point that we as a nation are not ready for that one bad day that changes everything and importantly we are not looking all that ready for the bad day in the eyes of those who may wish to cause the bad day. We have to be pretty honest Russia and China have been telegraphing their intentions for a fairly long time now…watching to see the response…and it’s been la la la la fingers in the ears from the west.

I think there needs to be some pretty serious messaging going on towards our geopolitical rivals and that’s not spinning out how we are spending more every year…that is putting In firm orders and cracking up escort building as quickly as possible..expediting first in class trials etc..we can fit out and do trials quicker than planned.,it would cost money but it could be done. Also follow on orders we cannot have gaps in production…no playing around with gold plated designs and reviews we need to order and chug out hulls at a price we can afford and at speed….that’s a batch 2 type 31 and not completely gold plating the next AAW escort…quite frankly if they can get a T26 version that provides adequate AAW then go for that….as you say also there needs to be equal work on workforce and retention…

At some point china is going to feel ready to try for Taiwan and we will be strait down the plughole of a global conflict ( at least only at sea..if we are lucky) ….unless the west can convince china that it and it’s potential allies cannot win…because forces like the RN are ready and able.

god forbid if they don’t get the escort fleet sorted out before then I can see some poor bastards getting sent to do something hairy in a Rivers2 that they have bolted a few CAMMs onto.

Well said Jonathan. Thankfully the regional Chinese neighbours(Aus, Japan, S Korea etc) have been painfully aware of the rise of the PLAN & been building their fleets accordingly, so with USN assistance should be able to contain the PRC.

The RN escort fleet was too small for peacetime when it was 19 ships, now it’s 16(Westminster unlikely to ever see further RN service) we’re severely compromising the RN & UK.

Years too before our long awaited ew builds come into service. The new fleet supply ships are doubtful to e on time considering H&W & Navantia are setting up from scratch.

What would more Rivers achieve?

We need more fighty ships…..

3+1=4

I don’t think I’d have touched the Amazonas. They were new, so relatively expensive, and built to a Caribbean civilian specification for the coast guard. Also Trinidad claimed they were defective. They came available just after the 2010 review when the military was being cheese-pared. Fighting for these would not have displayed a proportionate level of “we’re all in it together” austerity.

Clyde, on the other hand, came available after the RN had hired it for twelve years and its second hand value was peanuts, when the government was increasing defence spending (heady days) and post-Brexit they were being forced to reverse tack on the B1s and recommissioning HMS Severn. I’d have thought buying Clyde would have been a no-brainer.