As reported first in an exclusive by Martin Williams for The Herald, a substantial £800m scheme intended to rejuvenate Clyde shipbuilding and address Scotland’s ferry crisis with a fleet of 50 catamarans has been met with rejection, resulting in substantial criticism.
The Clyde Catamaran Group put forward the plan amid discussions over how to handle the unreliable services affecting Scotland’s islands and the spending scandal at the centre of the SNP government.
Ministers are under fire for “disrespecting” the plan, which could alleviate the ferry crisis with the introduction of 50 catamaran boats. It is understood that the £800 million scheme would cost a fraction of the current plan to build two ferries over 20 years.
Fronted by Stuart Ballantyne, a Scottish naval architect, and chairman of Australian marine consulting firm Sea Transport Solutions, the group has had meetings with ministers but found no interest in taking the plan further by either ministers or Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd (CMAL), the taxpayer-funded company responsible for owning and procuring ferries.
Professor Alf Baird, former director of the Maritime Research Group at Napier University, said: “Ministers’ apparent disrespect and rejection of such an offer from one of the world’s foremost established designers and innovators in the small ferry market is difficult to comprehend, especially given ongoing service issues throughout Scotland due to ferry design and procurement failure.”
The rejection of this potentially transformative proposal for Scottish shipbuilding has drawn sharp criticism and left many questioning the Scottish government’s commitment to resolving the ferry crisis, you can read the original here.
Photo by Dave souza, CC BY-SA 3.0 <https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0>, via Wikimedia Commons.
Sorry, if this guy wants to build ferry’s in Scotland why does he need the Scottish government to be involved?
Another “entrepreneur” looking for massive government hand outs?
The current unemployment rate on the Clyde is close to zero, their is no spare capacity to build the warships we desperately need, just accept that building ferry’s in a high income country like the UK will never be truly viable.
Jim,
The article has nothing to do with warships or their yards. It’s an article that basically challenges the SNP and the Scottish ferry procurement as completely dis functional and is offering fresh thinking and a solution…
Absolutely. Currently the SNP are doing little to sort out the mess at Ferguson’s and are perfectly willing to order state owned and funded ferries from places like Turkey whilst having the audacity to harp on about Westminster not supporting Scottish shipbuilding!
And these jokers want England and its taxpayers to bail out their own mess.typical
Just like we have to help bail out, their disastrous HS2, Aircraft carriers, Crossrail, PPE and Covid fraud to name but a few!
Just how so ? Inst Scotland a nett receiver of taxpayer funds rather than nett surplus
According to the Scots government its £66 bill sent to Westminster inc share of oil revenues, while £99 bill of public spending in Scotland
Could go on all day regarding the rights and wrongs of the Barnett Consequentials, but the fact is, Scotland pays a proportion ie 8% on all taxpayer funded and borrowing interest costs incurred, by them or on their behalf by the Westminster Government! This money is clawed back in the figure as well. Incidentally, why does England never release their own expenditure figures in such a high profile manner as they do in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland?
Because there is no devolved authority for England to either maintain or release such figures.
England is not a political entity in the same way as Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and to a lesser extent London and other regional authorities In England are.
The UK has the weirdest set of devolved control, I don’t think that any two devolved governments have equal powers.
You must admit though its rather convenient that you can get a breakdown of English regions, but they never publish total figures. I know for example, if you take in particular London, and to a lesser extent the South East, East Anglia and the South West. The rest of England is subsidised by the aforementioned. Thanks for your courteous reply though, this normally becomes a contenous subject.
I don’t find it convenient, or in any way a deliberate act.
England has no direct representation, all of our authorities have different powers.
The NHS is devolved to Scotland but not to London or Wales.
We have a ridiculous system of devolution which must make accounting by region quite tricky.
None of this is helped London and the South West dominating the GDP distribution.
For now we are one country and revenue generated in London should be available to be spent anywhere that is needed, I personally have no issue with that whilst we are still United.
Scotland has a budget deficit on average of £18 billion per year in the last 10 years or roughly 10% of GDP.
Should try and look at deficits elsewhere in this so called Union of equals, this Westminster crowd are experts at slithering their way out of trouble using borrowed money with no inclination how and when too pay any of the capital cost back Therein lies the big problem for future generations too grapple with. Incidentally, last time I looked the UK national debt was close on 3 Trillion pounds. No one can borrow their way out of trouble, growth in investment and productivity is the only answer, and tbh, can’t see much movement on that front. Our friend in Scotland…. Brexshit, drove a wrecking ball throw that!
The Scottish Government has not contributed any funds to the HS2 rail link budget; this is wholly funded by the UK Government.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-202000015934/
Never said that, but we will, no doubt be held to account on the interest paid pro-rata as part of the UK. Another waste of money on a giant white Elephant!
That’s really interesting; what bit of “we have to help bail out, their disastrous HS2” does not imply the Scottish Government contributing funds..?
You also mentioned “Crossrail”. Far from Scotland “bailing it out”… under the Barnett Formula Scotland automatically received a huge payment to compensate for Crossrail’s spending in the capital. So just how much of Scottish tax money went on Crossrail?
As for Covid fraud well the NHS in Scotland has been devolved for years. And talking of fraud, I do wonder why Audit Scotland remain concerned over where £5bn Covid funds went in Scotland? Could have paid for a third aircraft carrier with that. I recall Scottish PM Gordon Brown, when he left office, called for work on the UK’s two aircraft carriers to be done at Rosyth. Which of course is in Scotland. I wonder why he did…?
Geez you guys are normally whinging and moaning about Royal Navy warships not actually being built in Scotland! Then when they are, you’re still whinging.. marvellous!
Victimhood mentality.
I am pretty certain my original post implied that we will contribute to HS2, Crossrail, Disastrous PPE procurement, etc by paying or share of interest pro rata on these massive undertakings due to the funding being borrowed on our behalf, don’t go concerning yourself in our affairs, as to be quite honest, hell would freeze over before we were given any respect or say in Westminster!
And to be quite honest I couldn’t give a toss.😆
DITTO MATEY
Ps two posts below that one is more detailed.
No we do not want bail outs, what we want is independence, so happy to have you not bail us out, just stop preventing the inevitable.
Spot on.
Scotland has £18 billion budget deficit each year. If Scotland gets independence then what will have to go? No armed forces presumably but what else will take a hit?
If you’re trying to convince the Scots to stay in the union then ditch the whole “you need us you puny Scots” line and go for “we need you in this union greater than the sum of its parts”.
If we learnt anything from Brexit it’s that nobody appreciates being told they’re too small to do what they want.
Correct.
One thing that you should have learned is, the nobody south of the it bru curtain gives a stuff about Scotland and it’s incessant persecution complex the Scots signed the treaty of union without a gun to its head. It’s their own fault that they didn’t read the small print.!!
But we do actually need them and they do actually get a vote so maybe it’s time to wake up, smell the coffee and put the “haha we won” bs to bed?
Scotland would totally fall apart when orders are cancelled on the CLyde.
Only problem is scotland doesn’t want independence does it , it already had a vote on that and they didn’t want to leave the uk
Based on broken promises and lies. Brexit for many was and still is the game changer and look how that has turned out. On the strength of Independence, you are either talking to the wrong People, or believing all you read in the right wing controlled media. Independence is bigger than one person, or any one party tbh.
The old brexit red herring that’s just nonsense most people in the uk who voted remain did so because they just wanted the status quo not because of some massive desire to be in it trying to connect them by saying we were lied to is nonsense nobody anywhere said that if the uk voted to leave the e.u that Scotland would stay in it the Scot’s knew full well if the uk voted to leave it was leaving the e.u and if being part of the e.u was so important then voting leave would also mean leaving the e.u nobody was lied to and polls since then have seen very little change btw
Priceless…. I take it you voted for it?
Turkeys and Christmas springs too mind. How is taking back control of the Borders going? Probably the biggest reason many Troglodytes voted for it. If it wasn’t so bloody serious it would be hilarious!
I still have the hope that the roads into Scotland will get toll booths to help prop up the neglected economy, Belgium mark two will be.
And it’s as big a hope as that the tooth fairy is real.
Even if the rest of the union would have been more than happy to see it go.
OK you pay for it, or let England join the vote, and we can see if Scotland is wanted to be kept by England. BUT allow all Scottish by birth to vote. not the PLASTIC SNP followers who cannot think for themselves
so by your fantastic logic every European should have voted in BREXIT vote. Every election held in Scotland has returned a majority of independence parties. But again you miss the point, why is a defence oriented journal discussing civilian ferry building in Scotland? Only reason I can see is to bad mouth Scottish Government! Typical establishment mince. Why would anyone not resident in Scotland vote? Shall we ask all the people in Australia, New Zealand, North America of Scottish descent, should they all get a vote? Shouldf this same criteria apply in all elections or only the ones you do not agree with?
But if you are on here often enough you will realise that there are always regular red meat articles posted on here for exactly that purpose. Very dull for an alleged defence journal to be used a vehicle for personal propoganda and political bias.
Like it, they just don’t get it.
dont be a Billy, everyone who had the right to vote in the UK voted, that excluded those who didn’t have resident status. if you want independence let the Union vote. And all scots, but like Brexit the losers will want a re-count or another go. ITS QUITE BORING, WANT WANT WANT. yet cannot support itself. or defend itself
England would vote for a huge chasm between the two countries to be dug so that Scotland could just float away.
Politics, politics, blah, blah blah. Give it a rest people, nobody cares about Scotland anyway so drop the subject.
Not letting a Scottish national vote is wrong, they have as much skin in the game as a Scottish resident arguably more as they would need to apply for new citizenship or residency to continue their lives or face massive upheaval and return to an independent Scotland (which they would have not voted for) from a vote they are not allow to participate in.
More skin? That’s because the Scottish people are fatties right?
Why should Scottish who don’t reside in Scotland get a vote? Why should England get a vote in our affairs when we are seen as an irrelevance in a Union and can not interfere in English matters. Their is a definite rise in English Nationalism, that seems to be ok, but not for you pesky Scots!
All have a Scotland birth right, and wont have a right to live in a non EU country, SNP so why should any like half the Europeans, who had to leave. ITS NOT YOUR COUNTRY, so go home.
Go home where??
England should have independence.
Independence? After what a mess the Scottish parliament has done? It won’t happen the country would become Belgium MK2.
Scotland pays its own way ,so please don’t spout that sxxt that English tax payers pay for Scotland ,we pay our own way ,fiscal returns for tax in Scotland was near 85 to 90 billion pounds what did we get back just 51 billion pounds, do maths genius where the rest of the money,cuts ,cuts and more to come, GET YOUR FACTS CLOWN
ohhhhhh poor baby, yet SNP invested your money so well. CUTS enforced by SNP. wasted £ms feeding dumbness
Yeh whatever idiot ,don’t like the truth do you?oh your tory government has a brilliant record, care to comment on their success,brexit ,nhs on it knees ,poverty through the roof ,people going without food ,heat ,roof over their heads ,defence cut to nothing, but that OK, a entire country near on its knees put in danger by greedy corrupt tories,
The rest of the U.K has a government and whether you like it or not is immaterial, it’s called Democracy, which your SNP seem to have a problem understanding.
We understand alright, moron,democracy is something that the fxxxxxg shit pile tories know nothing about ,did you vote for them ?the United Kingdom is a fxxxxxg mess all of us are up to our necks in brown stuff ,Labour, tories, snp,Liberal Democrats, are all full of crap ,
But their corruption isn’t about motorhomes for the leadership.
Boris johnson,truss ,kwarteng,sunak ,braverman, corruption at at its greatest, tell me tory boy know what the truth is?250,000 people died in this country because of covid but the tories had a party but that’s OK well Nero fiddled while rome bunt but Britain is burning but that’s OK,
Rome burnt
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And buying mobile homes😆😆
, and reading the telegraph and the record with its biased view’s which regularly go against the rabid independence rhetoric (which everyone south of the irn bru wall knows won’t happen).the Scots have an arrogant attitude to the fact that the nation signed the act of union without reading the fine print. Scotland is better referred to as Belgium mk.2 and just as irrelevant.
Exactly!!
No it’s offering catamaran’s from some guy who claims he can build 50 if he just gets some government money.
It’s not some guy…. Appears to be someone who has been successful in this area.
If it has nothing to do with warships and their yards why is this report in a defence news/discussion site? Confused….
Wight Shipyard Co build high speed passenger catamarans, no cars mind. Very successful they are too.
Do they ferry 🐑?!
Reading the whole article from the herald, it’s not so much a funding thing as this offer is better value. It’s actual a mono hull vs cat argument and what should be procured. The executive agency for the hull procurement is clear it feels cats are not suitable for Scottish waters and points out that there are very few cat Ferris operating in Northern European waters for good reason…but more modern reaserch on the matter actually shows that modern cat Ferris services have less cancellations due to high sea states and wind that Mono hulls ( as they are better able to manoeuvre in confined waters with high wind )…also there was always a bit a thing that cats had higher rates of MSI ( sea sickness)…and I have to say that my own experience is that a lot of people do barf a lot on cats in higher sea states….I used to use the Holyhead to dublin cat a lot and I would often crash out for a Kip and wake up to find the who place awash with vom in higher sea states ( I’m not joking when I say I walked into the heads to find every sink full of vomit..the floor awash with it…I don’t get sea sick ever but that’s the one time I did nearly did upchuck on a boat…the smell…and I’m an ED nurse who can take a smell or two)…but again the reaserch shows that modern cat ferries don’t have anymore MSI incidents that mono hulls..
basically they are living in the past ignoring the evidence Mono hulled fascists.
A coracle would be better value for money.
With the rapidly deteriorating state of the Life line service and the Scottish government doing a bang up job or organising the deck chairs, it may come to that.
Cats can have a weird corkscrew action due to one prop bitting harder than the other.
I frequently took the big Cat ferry from Ayr to Ireland in sone pretty crazy sea states and it was solid.
If it is electric drive that can easily be compensated for.
Vivid picture
I used to get an Australian built high catamaran ferry from Larne to Troon with P&O – it could only sail across the Irish Sea outwith winter months and unfortunately the route was scrapped due to cost reasons. I remember cancellations due to weather were also an issue.
Scottish government is the customer..
Yes and they tender for ferries, nothings stopping him bidding. He wants government money to reactivate Govan to build them so does he actually have anything to offer?
Jim Mcoll bought Ferguson Marine and was full of the same s**t and empty promises.
Hi Jim the full article is pretty much clear that CMAL will not let cats tender full stop.
They tender for ferries piecemeal. One here, two there. To make it worthwhile to restore entire dockyards, you need a job lot.
Because the proposed ferries were intended for the lifeline service between the western isles and the mainland.
Currently operated by CALMAC who are owned by the Scottish government.
I don’t think some future hulls will that far removed from a ferry platform, USV Ranger for instance. Investing in flat deck space will have uses in the future.
https://navalpost.com/u-s-navy-deploys-sm-6-missile-on-usv-ranger/
It’s the whole cat hull hating….ignore the evidence base..mono hulls are the only thing that works in northern waters with high sea state mafia.
There is now a very good evidence base that is research lead showing cats are more effective than mono hulls for ferry services…they have less cancellations due to wind and sea state than monos are safer to operate etc….but the haters still hate. In the main articale the government agency that purchases the Ferris actual states the very old fashioned and not evidence based argument that cats are no good for northern waters..they literally have ignored this opportunity because of a that’s. It how we do it here and if it was good enough for my granddads day paradigm….I would be very pissed off if I lived in Scotland and used the services ( infact some of my family do and they are pissed with the services).
Perhaps a trial catamaran sailing on Scottish routes for 9-12 months could prove that it’s a good idea. Getting feedback from passengers, sailing times missed etc and compare it to the normal ferry.
Something needs to be done with as the ferry situation isn’t going to get any better.
It’s a shame to build the boats abroad but until there’s a yard in the uk that can compete on price, buildtime it’s hard to justify spending extra money on a worse product.
Perhaps the dept of business/enterprise could subside a uk build if the money invested gets returned in tax take/money staying in the area etc.
CalMac are unintentionally doing just that.
Pentland Ferries who run the Gills Bay to St Margaret’s Hope (Orkney route) who accidently ended up with two large catamarans rather than one have leased their newer vessel, the MV Alfred to CalMac for nine months to help with the ferry crisis.
If they care, they will get feedback from their passengers.
The RMT are gunning for them as I believe they are non union and offer less luxurious crew facilities than CalMac do. At least they don’t have almost a whole deck assigned to crew accommodation like the yet to be finished Glen Sannox has.
The RN already has done all this research. Upto sea state 9 or less a trimaran hull is the best hullform. Once sea state 10 or higher is needing navigating then a monohull.
Catamarans are great for lower sea states but still not as efficient or stable as a trimaran
Sea state only goes up to 9 that gives you your wave height, you have a second number that records the character of the sea from 1-9… if your WMO sea state is 9 your facing a 50foot waves ..if the character is also 9 it’s a confused sea…..at that point the sea is going to try really hard to kill you, if your in the wrong boat, not a very good Sailor or get unlucky and something fails your going to end up a statistic (don’t sail a boat in a sea state of 9…it’s only for the hard core). If you talking about a 10 then that’s the Beaufort scale( 1-12) which is a wind based scale to describe conditions on land or sea in relation to what the wind speed is….it’s actually an important difference as sea state can be independent of what the wind is doing….you can have some very nasty swell and no wind as the swell is generated from a storm/wind somewhere else…so you Beaufort scale could be a 3 ( 10knot breeze, that would describe a 2-4 foot wave) but you could actually have a sea state 4-5 ( 8-13 foot waves)…that were generated somewhere else.
But if your talking about a Beaufort scale of 10 the ferry service is not going to run…that’s 89 mile an hour winds..with a sea state of 8 ( waves 30-46 foot)…that’s basically as strong as storms get in this county…as an example the Holyhead Ferry service suffered cancellations this weekend and that was moderate sea sate and no more than force 6 winds…manoeuvring a large vessel in windy conditions in harbour is not something ferry companies will risk doing…..a boat or ship in confined waters has a different risk to being out to sea….the risk in harbour is about docking and manoeuvring ( its easy to mess it up)…the risk out to sea is all about the sea state, the dynamic forces on your boat and if it’s sea keeping and your skills are up to the task….or if something breaks ( boats break a lot and it’s very bad if your in a Gale).
Basically what is needed for an ocean going vessel is not needed for a ferry…
I have no idea about any of that but it’s bloody interesting 👍
I do agree that Phillipines and Scotland are very different waters. In the Phillipines Sea the average wave energy is 10-20 kW/m, in Scotland its 18-24 on the mainland coast rising to around 36-42 kW/m in the Orkneys and 66-72 in St Kilda!
Hi watcher indeed but there are cats in north and the Belfast mainland link has been no issue and run for decades. There really is no issue around sea keeping ability. I know more about sail boats that Ferries, but cat hulls have now gone through 6 generations and design and hull shape changes. Early cats where very prone to hobbyhorsing ( rocking back and forth) and pitching due to rocker and symmetry of hulls..that’s where they got the old name for being vom buckets and poor sea keeping compared to Mono hulls…but the six generation hulls have removed the hobbyhorse and pitch issues and in regards to roll cat hulls have always been better and modern cat hulls are better at reducing yaw as well. Stability wise cats are just better than mono hulls. Basically all the proper research base shows multi hull designs are safer to operate….But tradition is a hard thing to overcome and 20 years ago iThe evidence base was not so clear.
I know various navies have extensively experimented with Catamarans including the Royal Navy and the US Navy and the reason theyve not become common is they found them particularly vulnerable to fatigue cracking. Indeed the US wants to put its dozen Spearhead class (designed for just such a Pacific archipelago environment) which are only between 3 and 10 years old into reserve for cost savings.
Hi watcher, I’m not sure about open ocean work for ships that would essentially be expected to operate in ways and manage dynamic forces a ferry never would…but for a 40foot sailing vessel that’s not been a problem…also it’s not been a problem for the operators of cat ferries in northern waters. Norway for instance is happy building cats that had their hull designed using The same the same group of Scot’s academics who are trying to convince CMAL that they are living in in the last century.
Never mind cats. Some years ago the RN got really interested in hydrofoils. They had lots of advantages – high speed (50kt+), they lifted out of the water nicely at speed, were stable and they could avoid torpedoes, it was thought they would work well minelaying.
HMS Speedy (P296) was procured in 1979, as the first of a planned class of twelve, to provide the Royal Navy with practical experience in the operation of a hydrofoil & to ascertain technical and performance characteristics.
At one point the naval architects wanted to build a class of larger ASW frigate sized hydrofoils, but it all came to nought after a few £million had been spent.
Minesweeping and minelaying trials at Portsmouth were unsuccessful and she was sold into mercantile service in 1986. As of 2019, she is stilll serving as a high speed ferry between Hong Kong and Macau
HMS Speedy, that sounds like something RAF Luton would come up with😆
Theres been 8 HMS Speedy since 1782
https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1982/mar/31/hms-speedy
Hi SB – thanks for the interesting link. At least HMS Speedy was discussed in Parliament.
I don’t think the SNP will ever be able to overcome their anti-English bias and order anything from a British shipyard
US navy found them vulnerable to fatigue cracking?
So when they did the choose the LCS Independence class as well as the monohull design ? Its a trimaran design.
Clearly fatigue cracking is build or design problem
As an aside the Austal design started out as a derivate of a high speed cruise ship.
But most ferries dont need to travel that fast for fuel consumption reasons and for passenger comfort as well.
Yes the Austal ships were built as ferries in Hawaii but the company went bankrupt and so the US Navy bought them second hand and ordered more.
Fatigue cracking on the Independence class:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/the-navys-independence-class-littoral-combat-ships-are-cracking
Novel idea build something like the spearhead class, use it for domestic transport but if the proverbial hits the fan you have assets you can commandeer.
Get one catamaran hull ordered to try out and see.
Mv Alfred is already operational and therefore all the feedback need can be obtained. No need to buy anything.
I was going to say perhaps the Orcadians could stick their hands up and agree to take some on a trial basis, given the recent article here about the state of their ferries. Not CMAL or even CalMac, so maybe ten smaller boats could blaze a trail.
However I looked at the proposal and it already includes internal Orkney and Shetland ferries. It’s 30 boats for CalMac and 20 split between Orkey and Shetland. What’s more it includes the renovation of derelict Inchgeen and Govan docks, which could subsequently prove useful for warship maintenance. Aren’t we supposed to be all about resilliance and dual use these days?
So why not start with the twenty for the inter-island boats? They are the responsibility of the island councils and according to the Herald are supposed to be subsidised by Westminster, post-Brexit. The less Holyrood has to do with it, the greater the chance of success.
What then is the plan? Buy foreign?
Nobody has accused the SNP for having a plan to do anything.
I’m sure it is Westminster’s fault?
But they do have a very, very nice motor home.
👍👍👍😆
That’s nice. How much did it cost?
There is no such plan.
Gosh!
Barking mad depriving Scottish industry of the chance to further showpiece the country’s abilities, just proves that the lunatic s have taken over the asylum
Were fish and chips (French fries) originally an English, Welch or Scottish dish? Always enjoyed the version that included North Atlantic Cod, but many US chains have recently substituted Pollock and other varieties, presumably as a cost-savings measure. Not a fan of the substitutes. Do the Brits still use Cod?
👍
The SNP. the UKs answer to DT. Think how much worse it would be for Scotland if they got independence and this lot were responsible for the whole of Scottish government…
The SNP would disappear like UKIP, they’re a one trick pony. Scotland would end up with a red and blue political system like UK.
Agreed – but they would probably be in power for the first few years – think of the damage they would in that time.
George putting it in when the boot is on the other foot, eh? Couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch.
Nice attempt at a red meat article, thankfully lots of smart people with realistic points of view to balance it out.
Aaaand what is this to do with defence, just another failed pop at Scottish government.
Its connected, yards with large orders will make UK warships cheaper as the overheads are split between commercial and defence orders, right now yards are 100% dependent on orders from Westminster who shoulder all the overheads.
Some other important news. MBDA and Supacat, with probable assistance from Qinetiq, DSTl and the MoD have developed a new ground based air defence system for Ukraine.
This uses Supacat’s 6×6 HMT, mounting a rotating twin rail launcher and a electro-optical sensor on a telescopic pole. Images of the launcher show what looks like a pair of aircraft launchers fitted to the mount. It’s hard to tell from the image, if the launchers can move in elevation. What is absolutely clear though, is that the aircraft launchers are fitted with ASRAAM!
This I believe has been requested to fill a gap in Ukraine’s air defences (ADs). Specifically mobile ADs that move with and protect the forward units. Russia has lost a shed load of both Mil-28s and Ka-52s to short ranged air defenses (SHORAD) and MANPADS. Through the evolution of experience, they are using the Ka-52s to fire laser guided AT-16 Scallion (9K121 Vikhr) ATGMs at near maximum effective range at Ukrainian targets. These had a published range of 8km, but have proven to have a range more than 10km. Which means the Ka-52 can stay safely out of the range of MANPADS and Starstreak.
The ground launched ASRAAM will likely have 1/2 the range of an air launched version. As it doesn’t have the aircraft’s kinetic energy added to the missile’s at launch. However, this should still allow it to have range well over 10km. Which means the Ka-52 will be back on the menu!
Great news. We are so good at quickly coming up with solutions.
So how come for the British Army’s own AD needs it seems like it takes 20 years and reinvents the wheel?
Corporate need over the Army’s own perhaps? Why not use this for the army? We have ASRAAM?
Hi Daniele, CAMM is essentially ASRAAM with ca changed seeker head and some upgraded electronics ( ASRAAM is IR seeker and CAMM radar)…TD have a good graphic:
https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/wp-content/webp-express/webp-images/uploads/2022/04/ASRAAM-Evolution.jpeg.webp
Afternoon Jonathan. Didn’t know that, thank you.
Point still stands at the speed they create a new launcher. So the issue doing that with our own AD forces, which are meant to be expanding, is?? Though balancing that, just read Davey’s greater expansion below.
I think it’s interesting as the RAF are the main user of ASRAAM and the stocks would be large,,if Dstl have sorted this…and now know how to build a heath Robinson short range area defence system out of our of ASRAAM stocks and stuff you have hanging around I’m feeling a bit more confident that if needed the Uk could put up area defence systems around its key infrastructure in a short time frame…leaving the army’s sky sabre batteries to defend any mobile and deployed forces.
It really shows what value Dstl and the MOD could add in a sudden hot conflict or hight risk situation…
Defo, DSTL is a strategic asset.
Very interesting point regards the AD system possibility, we both support such provision.
Indeed air defence should be a real priority after all cruise missile and BM attack from sub and surface is the only real way Russia has of harming the UK. Some form of ASRAAM based cheap system like this would be ideal for filling in the gaps in the higher end…as it would use the RAF ASRAAM stocks it would be a hard system to overcome numbers of missiles wise.
what most people forget is that the only effective way to deal with cruise missiles is to have an air defence system actually in the way of its flight path as look down radar are not great in engaging cruise missiles…for that you need numbers as much as quantity.
For more info, see link below:
UK to deliver Ukraine new air defense system using ASRAAM IR missiles mounted on HMT truck | Defense News August 2023 Global Security army industry | Defense Security global news industry army year 2023 | Archive News year (armyrecognition.com)
Bearing in mind the timeframe in getting this system up and running for delivery to Ukraine. You can see it isn’t pretty, but enough to meet the initial requirements. I would expect this system to be an interim solution, where a more polished version comes along in the near future. Perhaps with more launch rails eg 4 instead of 2 and it can be networked with other sensors and systems. A search radar would be high on the priority list, but perhaps make it compatible with Sky Sabre, NASAMS etc.
I’m pretty sure the MoD will be watching this very closely. As it would add a formidable layer between Stormer and Sky Sabre. I do think the Russians have caught everyone on the hop, with the Ka-52’s combination of better performing FLIR and the Vikhr ATGMs. As it means they can identify targets from further away whilst staying outside the engagement envelops of MANPADS, which the majority of SHORAD systems use as their primary missile. Thereby, being more effective on a static or manoeuvring battlefield.
The Supacat/ASRAAM combination should relevel the playing field!
I think this when UK engineering is at its best, moving from requirement rapidly to delivery is something we do very well.
Essentially it will have the same range as CAMM, same motor and missile body.
Yes. Loading it should be pretty easy as well. As its the same method of fitting to an aircraft, so three man team to attach it to the rail after lifting it out of the box.
Sky Sabre / CAMM is supposed to have a range of 25km+. ASRAAM is supposed to have the same range fired from the air, so surely won’t have that from the ground (as DaveyB points out). Is this the usual obfuscation of quoted ranges? Is ASRAAM very much better than quoted in the air?
Hi Jon, I think it is well under reported as I’ve read reports of the ASRAAM test programme that quoted 50kms+ which would sort of work with the CAMM figures…
Thank you.
Imagine if you had a Strong Government that had concentrated on the needs of its population rather than filling its pockets, and hurling stones at the English. 3rd country Migrants are leaving in rubber boats from Scotland’s shores trying to go home. even its most famous sons and daughters treat it as a holiday home. AND CAST THAT LINE…
Looks like Fiji have gone for the Clyde Catamaran Group Cats instead. (Link)
Were reasons giving for rejecting the proposal? It would need to be against a specific use-case and the Ministers would have to be convinced that the proposal met the requirement- which requires a technical assessment by suitably qualified specialists. I’m conscious that it’s easy to put forward superficially sensible proposals that turn out to be hair-brained when evaluated in more depth.
Catamarans… hmmm… what experience is there for building them in the UK as a whole, never mind Scotland.
More pouring money down the drain while experience is, painfully, garnered
Maybe get the new H&W yard at Methil involved in building a standard vehicle ferry ?
Not really related but Naval News reporting India is after MCM motherships and might look at the Belgian-Dutch vessels. Is the UK industry looking at this? what about a A140/T31 derivative as shown on the A140 website? Might already be part of the thinking on the T32 for the RN?
I am not a fan of the SNP to be sure. I would like to see the opinion of someone with expertise, in the field of Catamarans, or even Hovercraft, compared to conventional Ferries.
Are the Ferries used between the Islands shallow draught vessels? I for one, truly have no idea.
Interesting topic though. 🙂