Ukraine will receive anti-ship missiles from the UK to counter the Russian Navy in the Black and Azov Seas, Ukrainian Ambassador to the UK, ex-Foreign Minister Vadym Prystaiko has said in an interview with Radio Novoye Vremya.
“For the first time, our Armed Forces, in particular the Navy, will receive real weapons, missiles, which will finally allow us to oppose something to the Russians in the Black and Azov Seas”, he said.
Last year, the UK and Ukraine signed a £1.7bn agreement to implement the following projects:
- Missile sale and integration on new and in-service Ukrainian Navy patrol and airborne platforms, including a training and engineering support package.
- The development and joint production of eight fast missile warships.
- The creation of a new naval base on the Black Sea as the primary fleet base for Ukraine and a new base on the Sea of Azov.
- Babcock will participate in the Ukrainian project to deliver a modern frigate capability.
- A Government to Government sale of two refurbished Sandown class mine countermeasure vessels.
In the words of the British Government:
“The purpose of the Agreement is to bolster Ukraine’s naval capabilities by providing the framework for a £1.7bn loans package to enable Ukraine to purchase two British minesweeper vessels and retrofit UK weapons systems to existing vessels, and for specified UK contractors to work with Ukraine to build eight missile ships and a frigate. The package also includes consultancy and technical support for the building of naval infrastructure, including the delivery of equipment.”
The agreement will see the introduction of new capabilities through the delivery of new naval platforms and defensive shipborne armaments, the training of Ukrainian Navy personnel, the creation of new naval bases, and the purchase of two Sandown class mine countermeasure vessels from the UK.
The UK will also be building a warship for Ukraine in Rosyth, Scotland.
I’m assuming these missiles are Harpoons, since we don’t really have anything else at the moment.
That was my thoughts as well
I would guess so but are there alternative missiles made in the UK for export that could be ‘packaged’ as from the UK ??? I have no idea by the way, just wondering.
Refurbished upgraded sea eagles? Not used buy us anymore but built by bae…I think India still uses them.
Well it does say supplied by as well as UK systems so it may be integrated foreign missiles in some cases. Can’t see how it can be Harpoons as things stand as ours are soon going to be past their sell by date unless we acquire or at the very least upgrade present missiles to marginally extend service life. Not sure when these weapons will be supplied which could influence matters and choices. Might help if we knew the exact design of these ‘fast patrol boats’ as their offensive weaponry are likely at the centre of that debate and as… Read more »
I thought we did know the design of the missile ships. Aren’t they these?
http://www.navylookout.com/small-warships-for-ukraine-to-be-built-in-scotland/
Speculation was that their anti-ship missiles would be Marte. If so I don’t think the UK has any yet, although it’s integrated into the Typhoon. I expect these missiles for the Ukraine will be separate.
Isn’t there a Ship Bourne version of Brimstone and Sea Skua, that could be produced? I also think there was a land based version of Sea Skua. Either way if they are new missiles there are options. Otherwise there is only the second hand Harpoon that could be ready to go.
Yes. Sea Spear. A Brimstone with a @16kg warhead instead of @8 in brimstone II. 20-30 km range as opposed to 40km for Brimstone Ii
Sea Spear, that’s it. Probably one of the quickest ways the UK could deliver a new anti ship missile system to Ukraine.
My thoughts entirely, long range missiles are less likely I think certainly until this Frigate hits water many years from now.
Ukraine are nearly there already with their own long range (300km) anti-ship missiles – Neptune – which carry a 150kg warhead.
And are just coming into service, not quite in time for the peak of the current crisis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neptune_(cruise_missile)
But are probably more appropriate for one of those Amphibious Assault Ships or Cruisers than a Martlet.
Correction. 16kg instead of 6kg
Pete, I think it will be Sea Spear, I cut and Paste a twit from Navy lookout, if accurate the link seems to indicate Ukraine has been talking about a purchase since October (I got the info from the headline, to right to register for the whole article).
Not in UK service @byMBDA Sea Spear/Maritime Brimstone apparently most likely option for export to Ukraine
shephardmedia.com/news/defence-n…
Twit…. Tweet 😀
Yes Pete it was reported on naval news the other day. The p50 protector where building will have a sea brimstone launcher on the rear deck. Here’s the link.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/02/ukraine-approves-framework-agreement-with-the-uk/
Cheers Mark personally I would be putting 2 x 4 Sea Brimstone launchers onto type 31, River B2 and type 32. Low cost, effective, UK IP, minimal interface requirements and can also be used against shore targets. The Marte ER would also be a reasonable interim longer range medium weight interim ASHM, either ship launched or heli launched.
Pete
Italy’s Teseo would also be a decent option for larger AShM, not really sure why we aren’t availing ourselves of these existing European designs that are already within the MBDA group. I’m baffled why they weren’t even considered in the interrim competition. But we canned that competition anyway, so not much point in playing fantasy weapon fit-outs now…!
Agree on options Joe.. but on the need….other than world is decidedly hotter than it was even just several months ago ….and were possibly just two years away from the return of Putins mate, the Orange One, and the ‘Europe can look after itself’ ideology. The fantasy is the belief there isn’t a short term need. Although I accept your right…decision made.
Well, when it comes to wisdom of the decision we could talk for a fair while on that! While the RN may never have used ship-launched AShMs in a conflict before, that isn’t an entirely solid justification for not needing them until FC/ASW comes into service- which is effectively what they’re saying. I guess they can point to Iraq and the Falklands to show that helicopter-delivered missiles are proven to be effective, but neither of those conflicts is really comparable to even a limited conflict with Russians in the Black Sea. That said, the question becomes “are we actually going… Read more »
Indeed. People never point to damages and losses suffered due to Ashm in the Falklands. Govt should probably go the whole hog…scrap all ships except Rivers block Iii…..we will never need them so why have them! Sorted.
When the requirement was launched Teseo EVO had not been built. The previous versions were long in the tooth.
Ah, OK, well that would make sense then!
It could be Martlet and Sea Venom too,id guess Sea Venom has the ability to be Ship Launched at some future stage.
I forgot about Martlet, might not have the punch Ukraine needs. If it is Sea Venom, then we really are sharing the latest and greatest.
Then again, look what Royal did to the Argentines. Denying the option of a seaborne invasion would free up resorces to face the Belarus threat or at least create a mobile reserve.
We should try and get as much firepower to Ukraine as quick as possible. I would hope there are plans on how we could strengthen Ukraine defenses in the short term, medium and long term.
Agree. However, long term, we need to remove any need for Russian minerals or logistics (from China) and there within minimize our dependency on products / services that support the Chinese economy. I feel we are asleep in a war.
The west is addicted to fast moving consumer goods. We would need a strategy to move supply from China to a regime we could get on with, with a cost structure to that would meet the wests demand for affordable products. India comes to mind, Malaysia? The Philippines? No easy task.
True story. International scaffold provider moved from China to… Latvia.
Wages are becoming so high, quality issues AND logistics timelines.
Hence, I’d written on another thread about engaging the Ukraine as a manufacturing base.
And YES, Latvia had and has corruption, however, I would wager that manufacturing could be made to work – RR with aero / marine engines? BAE, shipbuilding? Railway rolling stock? Testing?
Long may the trend continue
China has plenty of corruption too.
Then, let’s reshore.
People are slowly and quietly doing so.
Container costs and lead times are a big incentive.
The big disincentive is lack of capacity. Which could be fixed by tax breaks for plant and machinery and new factories – like the Germans do with soft loans added…
Reduced energy costs for certain industry would be another good idea we could borrow from Europe. Trying to run an energy-intensive industrial process (like steel manufacture), when you’re paying the same unit rate for energy as the local Costa, does not make for a sustainable business.
Very low interest loans or the tax breaks you suggest for updating equipment and training to bring our industries up to speed would be a great strategic move that could truly level us up. So I’m not expecting that to happen any time soon!
yes
Meanwhile, the UK STILL sends foreign aid to China, amounting in 2019 to a record £68.4 million….
I’m not a Con.
Should I ever get elected, I’d first sort rail electrification and secondly man the Royal Navy and Royal.
Yes Brimstone would be lethal against a seaborne invasion. In Numbers probably enough to preclude any early such strategy.
I suppose it will come down to how quick we can manufacture, deliver install and train. There are four Island class, ex coast guard cutters in the Ukrainian navy that seem likely candidates for a retro fit with Sea Spear (Brimstone) missile systems
I think Monsieur Macron has just sold Ukraine down the river though GMD without a paddle. God alone knows what he promised that tin pot dictator Putin for his “peace in our time” moment.
Surely the “peace in our time” moment will put the British establishment on edge. Too many parallels with the past. I also believe at this moment the USA and the UK are not in the mood to back down just yet, both Biden and Boris need the distraction, Macron may be able to commit France and possible the EU to terms, but not NATO?
I’d be surprised if we shared anything with the latest motors or seekers.
Anything reasonably effective missile system would really totally change the calculus for the Russians.
Martlet is a bit lighweight.
Venom is too new.
Harpoon would need US approvals.
Hi Paul, Found this good article on Think Defence. https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/sea-venom-air-to-surface-guided-weapon/ It shows how Sea Venom developed out of work carried out for Sea Skua and that Sea Skua was developed into both ship and shore launched versions. The former was actually successfully demonstrated afloat. However, there appear to be no further plans to widen the development or deployment of Sea Venom by the Royal Navy / MoD. Having said that the RN clearly isn’t the only game in town, so I would not be at all surprised if MBDA didn’t have some ideas under development which could be taken forward… Read more »
MBDA’s Sea Venom was initially tested from ground based launch rails, then canisters before being fired from a helicopter. So there is precedence for it to be used as a ground launch missile.
Most sea launched missiles are initially tested as land launched?
Exactly. Even air to air missiles are first ground tested, before being test fired from an aircraft.
Hi Daveyb, That would not surprise me in the slightest, in fact I would be surprised if it wasn’t tested from a ground launcher to start with. In fact I have drawn attention to surface launched trials of Brimstone, but I have always recognised that further development would be needed. Just because a demonstration of a potential application of a system was successful it does not mean that the system is currently setup for ground or surface launched use. As has been stated by others the missile is the last element in chain of systems. Test firing a missile, especially… Read more »
I agree, having watched a Sidewinder trial in California, where it was attached to a 1km long cable suspended over a gorge (new software upgrade for the IIR sensor). I know how many tests are required, before its deemed safe enough to try it on an aircraft. Integrating within the aircraft also took quite a while. So for a new coastal battery or installing it on a ship, I’d imagine would be just the same convoluted path, where you need to jump, through all the risk assessment hoops and safety cases before its even considered. MBDA has a very large… Read more »
I agree with your main point that MBDA technology should be better exploited, however, I do not think that MBDA are entirely at fault here. MBDA is a relatively small player when compare Lockhead Martin and BAE Systems, for example, so does not have the financial clout that those companies have. Even more importantly it it a very specialised company focused on missile technology and as I say above the missile is at the end of a long system chain which in MBDA’s case means other companies. These two points mean that it is difficult for MBDA to ‘go it… Read more »
Cheers mate, that explains a lot. Does BAe still have its 33% stake in MBDA though? Dare I say it? If we get Ajax SV in to service. then this would be one of sensor platforms used for precision fire using Brimstone/Spear-3. Though guys on the ground and JTACs will always be feeding back info. The Army definitely needs to up its game with respect to the small number of UAVs it operates. The Watchkeeper would be the primary sensor for such a system. Though they will be easy meat for any decent SHORAD system, which means they need a… Read more »
BAE own 37,5% of MBDA
You are welcome, mate. I would like to see the Army adopt a deep strike capability and fully exploit the range potential that the air launched version of Spear 3 promises which is listed as being 140km. Although a ground launched version would need a pretty reasonable booster to maintain the range of an air launched version. There are many who suggest that MBDA tend to understate the effective range of their missiles. So it is likely that a ground launched Spear 3 would be able to threaten an enemy’s rear areas and high value assets such as large SAM’s… Read more »
MBDA performed sea demonstrations of Sea Spear against multi simultaneous targets in 2013 and have been, since 2015 been actively marketing the system internationally at exhibitions.
https://youtu.be/_bmc1NwLaDE
I may be wrong here, but I think that even the Sea Spear version of Brimstone is still somewhat more lightweight than the Sea Venom in terms of warhead at least. The latest versions of Brimstone have very good range, but Sea Venom is termed as a ship killer up to the 500 Te corvette class. Even with a 16 kg warhead, I don’t think that Sea Spear can match that. I do see the value in surface-launched Sea Venom and Brimstone, but I don’t see them as equivalents. Due to the size of the warhead, I’m also not sure… Read more »
That’s correct the Brimstone and Spear-3 both share the same tandem (HEAT) programmable fused directable 6.3kg warhead. The Sea Spear uses the Brimstone II body, but also introduces an inertial navigation system for mid-course guidance corrections and is fitted with the larger 16kg warhead. It is still a tandem (HEAT) programmable directional effects warhead. But the increased warhead volume and electronics, means some of the fuel had to be reduced for it to fit. So its range is quoted as 8 to 20km, instead of the Brimstone II’s 40 to 60km. Sea Venom carries a 30kg semi-armour piercing warhead. It… Read more »
The Sea Venom is not in service in UK nor France, how can it be exported in Ukraine ? 😡
It has declared IOC with the RN as of May 2021,also this arrangement for Ukraine could involve current and future capability.
Oh, I dont have see this news, interesting. But even with the IOC, I dont think the stock is sufficient to provide enough missile. Also, I dont think the UK/FR will take the risk to give the last gen in Ukraine. To risky to see a last gen going to Russia. A bunch of old harpoon / exocet (Not hard to find even without the french), or sea skua for the same class can be enough to do great damage. We have here an example of why we must be able to produce high end but also midend stuffs. With… Read more »
Reading between the lines UK are being progressively less open about what is bought and when it is bought and what the stockpiles actually are.
Gone are the days when the purchase quantities of Storm Shadow were well known.
Well its both bad and good…
Good because such informations doesnt really need to be public.
Bad because we know that its not really to protect the information but mostly to hide the reduced stocks…
I’m not so sure.
There are war level stocks of some things.
Things have been quietly built up since the disaster of SDSR 2010.
Less lines for sure but more depth.
There were, for sure, some unfortunate events such as drawing down Dart too quickly while T42 was still in service. And running down Wolf before Ceptor was fully in service. This lead to some embarrassing m. and maybe true, stories about lack of missiles on ships on task.
There is, an announced, joint stockpile for P8 – what is in it: who knows?
“The Royal Navy declared Sea Venom an initial operating capability in May 2021 when it deployed them as part of United Kingdom Carrier Strike Group 21 on its maiden deployment to the Pacific. The missile equipped four Wildcat HMA2 helicopters embarked on the strike group’s accompanying destroyers.” Wiki
There’re a few Exocets hanging around at The Explosion Museum……..😉
They could be the Norwegian Naval Strike Missile, purchased on Ukraine’s behalf and retrofitted. Ukraine is listed as a potential “future user.” Then there is this in both English and Ukrainian.
https://defence-ua.com/news/komanduvannja_vmsu_poperedno_pogodilos_ozbrojiti_raketni_kateri_norvezkoju_pkr_nsm_zamist_neptuna-2217.html
Could be sea venom??
So we are selling off the few Harpoons we have whilst our own Warships go to sea without any anti-ship missiles?
Don’t worry, I hear the Astute is so good it can be in three places at once.
Thanks for the 😂
2 or 3 Astutes would give any enemy fleet serious headaches.
Well there are only 4 in service so that means how many operational? And once one engages with an adversary like Russia, the primary mission is likely protecting the SSBNs. So what does that leave available in practical terms? … And the Russian Northern Fleet has north of 30+ boats … summary: the math is awful due to years of totally inadequate effort.
If Russia has 30 boats (including SSBN’s) how many of them do u think are operational at one time? If the concern is how many quite new astutes can be operational at one time it has to be applied the other way. My guess would be 1-2 Russian SSBN deployed and an occasional Oscar SSGN and 1 or 2 SSN’s available at the same time. Got to remember the Russians list ships in the navy that have no chance of going to sea. Never mind on a long 6 month deployment. They have the 4 delta IV SSBN and a… Read more »
I haven’t included the diesel boats in that list. Or the couple of special boats
What exactly is “your guess” based on? Aside from “guesses” the foundational reality is this: 10 submarines on the UK side; 30+ in the Russian Northern Fleet alone. Of course one must add NATO allies (notably the US). THAT is where the balance tips to the West at sea. But quite frankly the conventional balance only takes one so far. The biggest concern in any conflict would be when either sides SSNs start running into the other sides SSBNs; or when either side starts targetting the other sides bases/command and control. At that point, all bets are off and nuclear… Read more »
Your mistake is that Russia keeps subs that are not going to sea or able to go to sea as it’s a way to make fleet look bigger and for crews to get paid etc. Even Wikipedia has a rough guide as to what subs are active and the numbers are way under 30. There are other sites that can give rough numbers. H I Sutton has a great knowledge of submarines. The numbers I gave are roughly correct and my guess is based on knowledge and research on the topic over many years. If I don’t know about a… Read more »
Yep it was the same back in the cold war.
Yes. Russia has had over 200 nuclear boats to disposed of when the Cold War ended.
It was cut up the boats leaving 1 section either side of the reactor compartment. Then back in the sea until a later date when the reactor section could be taken separately to a concrete pad storage.
We currently have 6 SSNs in various states of readiness, which includes the two Trafalgar class which have /are receiving a extension to allow for the late delivery of the remaining 3 Astute boats. We should have all 7 Astutes in service by 2026.
Despite what many may think, our SSNs are not specifically tasked with protecting our SSBNs, they are more than capable of looking after themselves.
The tasking our SSNs receive along with surface and air assets all collectively contribute to keeping our SSBNs safe by providing intel for them.
SSBNs have to enter and leave Faslane; that is a vulnerability (also on the Russian side) that must be guarded as a top priority. … Faslane, and any SSBN in port, is a huge vulnerability. Erode that and you erode the deterrent. How long, in a conventional conflict, before either sides conventional assets start running into the other sides nuclear assets? This is a scenario you want to avoid at all costs and the only real way to do so is not to go to war.
Yes you are correct, entering/leaving Faslane is a vulnerability. However, to say that they are ‘guarded/escorted’ in and out is incorrect. If we have a OOA deployer from the North, it starts as intel driven and various assets are assigned to locate and track it. That all feeds into Northwood, if we have a SSBN about to deploy then they will either be tasked to depart earlier or, wait a bit longer depending on the intel picture.There is a fair bit of flex in the time a SSBN spends on patrol, being extended by a few weeks is par for… Read more »
And when cruise missiles start slamming into SSBNs and SSBN support facilities in Faslane? And when assets you rely on in peacetime start to “go dark” in the reality of a full conventional war? When your corresponding shore infrastructure is destroyed in Devonport and Portsmouth? When the same starts to happen to Russian Northern Fleet facilities? Look, the bottom line is this: any conflict with Russia should be absolutely avoided unless UK survival is DIRECTLY threatened. Nothing else is worth risking (even slightly risking) the consequences of what happens next once you cross the war threshold. So let’s chill out… Read more »
Don’t believe we were actually discussing an imminent war with Russia Roy? But agree with you, it should be avoided at all costs if possible.
If that happens we are all f***ed. Those who don’t die straight away will wish they had
Great explanation. The type of info you can’t find in a Google search. 👍 Great insight.
Yep. As always.
Roy the truth is the Russian nuclear boat fleet is more of a paper tiger than a lot of people realise. All it’s SSNs are vintage, being designed in the 60s-70s and build in the 80s, ( the Planned end of service date for even the new boats was the early 2020s) they have a couple of improved project 971As but even they were laid down in the 90s and are due to retire. The very youngest boat has 20 years of active service the oldest has 40. The crews of these boats are probably the walking dead if they… Read more »
That is very important insight. But if we assume that that bulk of the Russian fleet is largely useless, then NATO would have to constrain itself not to take this to the Barents Sea even as Russia is potentially winning the war on the ground … because if it were to do that, then of nuclear escalation would be a real danger once the Russians fear the potential loss of their SSBNs. The terrifying reality is that nuclear escalation becomes a real danger regardless of the state of the conventional forces of either side. Whether the West is weak, Russia… Read more »
Hi Roy yes, an actual fully fledged war between nuclear powers has never happened for a reason. In reality nato could only really ever risk a defensive war because A lot of Russia’s nuclear weapons are exposed and any perceived attack on a nations nuclear deterrent is considered a trigger for a nuclear response. Russia would have a bit more leeway as the only European nuclear powers are tucked well way and have their nuclear deterrent so well hidden. Im of a personal view that NATO has pushed to far and we ignored Russia in the 1990s. The west treated… Read more »
Hi Jonathan, I thought there already was a solid agreement to protect the sovereignty and integrity of Ukraine signed by the west and Russia when Ukraine agreed to give up their nuclear weapons. I think you are correct that Putin may see this as a political move to force NATO into concessions, but if he thinks there is a chance he can take Ukraine for an acceptable price, then he will be tempted to make a move (my opinion). That is why we should continue to support Ukraine with arms etc. Putin may have actually revitalized the NATO alliance with… Read more »
Hi GMD unfortunately the Budapest memorandum was more of an understanding, it had no legal standing and provided no guarantees of support or any consequence for breaches.It was effectively not worth the paper it was written on. any new Guarantee needs to be backed by a level of consequence ( EU, US and U.K. economic sanction). i would also think some form of mutual aid pact between Europe nations To support Eastern Europe so, as a Ukraine, Finland, Baltic state, Poland, Germany, France, U.K. European mutual aid pact would have the mass to blunt Russian aggression but would not be… Read more »
Which country would Russia have to invade to qualify as vital to the survival of the UK ?
A very pertinent question. Which country would you be willing to sacrifice your family and your city for? That is the sobering question. The problem is that NATO has expanded without really ever asking that question. Some NATO states are clearly vital to the UK. West Germany fit that category prior to 1990 since a Soviet takeover of Germany would have de facto subjugated the UK, But now, the further east one goes the less clear it becomes. But one thing is reasonably clear, Ukraine does not fit the category – not in a strategic sense, not in an economic… Read more »
Don’t disagree, I would like to see NATO as only including nations that share specificity the values of western democracies. removal of counties like Turkey need to be removed and the key question of would you go to war for this nation as a key question for all NATO states. Because if the answer is no then NATO would be doomed.
Your correct that that is a key question… the real world is full of a lot of grey areas and compromises. Clearly there must be red lines while ties can be closer between some allies than others where those lines are more fuzzy…. I make no claim of knowing where those lines should be but a much more honest and realistic discussion is badly needed to define them and make clear the associated consequences of moving them to convince the public majority. from a purely military point of view, if a conflict between western europe / nato and russia is… Read more »
Agreed on Ukraine. But since we’re not going to defend them we’re right to help them defend themselves.
Any nato county, as to not trigger article 5 would destroy nato and any future chance the west would have to contain China.
its why I would like to see Turkey removed from NATO as it’s behaviour is potentially a risk to NATO integrity.
T|he problem is the current Turkish govt. Up until Erdogan Turkey was a significant plus to NATO defence. The question of it’s membership should be dependent on it’s behaviour after Erdogan. Assuming he doesn’t force our hand.
Hi David, the problem unfortunately is not just Erdogan and his government. It’s a very deep change in the character of Turkish government. All of the Kemalist structures that were designed to resist the rise of a religious state and keep Turkey secular have collapsed, the judiciary has been ripped apart and the army which was always the final defence of kemalist ideals failed in its duty and has been purged of Kemalist officers ( the army had an unwritten but well understood requirement to undertake a coupe and remove a none secular head of state). Effectively all of the… Read more »
Good points. We’ll find out when Erdogan is gone how deep the damage is to Turkey’s democracy.
I suspect you need to be careful using the rule of three in an actual major war… particularly if one side is choosing when to start. AIUI the rule of three is based on 1 preparing to deploy, 1 deployed and one refitting after deployment so you have a continuous number available at all times. However, if you are planning to start a war, long term continuity is less important and you can accelerate your getting ready to deploy boats at the very least and double your available number for a period of time. If you let your previously deployed… Read more »
I know, Turkey is a big problem but I think Turkey is effectively not within the western power block and is just using/trading on NATO membership as a big stick to get away with bad behaviour. If I was Putin I would be exploiting that ruthlessly in the future as a way to crack open NATO disunity. or the other side of the Turkish issues is: I also don’t not doubt for a second that if called to enact art 5 in defence of a European nation or the US Against Russia Turkey would Immediately leave NATO and declare Neutrality.… Read more »
No that’s incorrect, it’s four places at once!!!🤣🤣
Ssssssh we are not supposed to openly discuss the Tardis compartment or the warp drive that allow them to be in multiple places and times simultaneously ……:) !?
Damm, my fault!😱
Well you see the RN has developed quantum technology that allows the physical submarine in 2 places at once until it’s detected then it collapses into a single point in time and space. To cover the need for Each sub to be in three places at once they have harnessed a virtual reality model of the sub, this allows for a virtual sub to exist where needed.
The Heisenberg Submarine equation……vital stuff.
So if you detect it does its location average between the two states or does the dominate state win?
Tricky buggers those quantum submarines.
I think Ukraines need is greater than ours at the moment. Nice to share.
👍
Well said
My thoughts entirely. What else can we offer that’s available immediately?
Our massive stock of “FFBNW” labels?
Never underestimate the power of a well deployed sticker.
It’s a loan package of £1.7 billion, I would assume the latest missile package would be part of it, anti ship anti air. New new details really from what we already know.
No new details from what we already know.
We should send them some of the spare harpoon sets off the frigates to land base. Might not be good against a destroyer but will make sharp work of an amphib and protect their southern flank
Spare Harpoon sets??? The UK doesn’t possess any ‘spare sets’, we don’t have enough to put on our own ships, hence most go to sea without them…..
They take they off when in port – as most of our navy (T45s especially) are docked they must be a few spare at least. Their south coast looks very vulnerable so even a few extra missile might deter an amphibious invasion. Even an old harpoon would be good enough for this.
We never purchased enough missiles to ensure all our assets able to carry them, would have them fitted. We base it on the understanding that only a limited number of the few assets we have would be available and seaworthy at any given time. Sadly UK weappons stocks leave a lot to be desired………
I can’t get my simple head around this, it must be me
Sadly, not just you mate. Surreal…
What hell are we giving them ? air horns?.
Might be Sea Spear ( Maritime Brimstone with heavier warhead not to be confused with Spear III) or Sea Venom
Old Harpoon AShm ? …. Not much of a challenge to the Russian shipborne air defences and ECM.
Old Harpoon AShM ? …. Not much of a challenge to the Russian shipborne air defences and ECM.
So the only long range anti ship missle that the RN has is Harpoon block 1 in insufficient numbers for our destroyers and frigates, what system are we exporting?
So the Ukraine navy gets ASM that the MoD refuses to fit to our ships? Which missiles? Who is making decisions like this?
Exactly! Why can’t the RN also have this same “mystery AShM capability… even if FFBTW!
T45s in the black Sea with nothing but Asters and Wildcats! Looks like most T23 and 3-40T45s still have the old Harpoon fittings.
4 of our T45s are now tied up alongside at Portsmouth, with the other two in bits at Birkenhead having propulsion issue fixed. HMS Diamond only made it as far as the Med then blew a gas turbine. HMS Dauntless made it to the Pacific and back – but is now apparently unavailable.
Dauntless has not yet completed post PIP Sea trials, Daring in Dry dock having holes cut in her for PIP upgrade, and Dragon about to commence a refit, that just leaves Diamond, Duncan and Defender all of which are tied up at Pompey.⁶
Dauntless just tweeted it’s soon to leave port for trials.
Thank god for that! She is way behind on her PIP!!
Where would you like them to be then? To save your blood pressure have a read of Thepinstriped line blog and you will get your answers there.
That like reading the Pravda to know Soviet Union…
To be fair, blowing a gas turbine is a rare event and HMS Diamond was unlucky that it happened when it did.
It’s called maintenance. Goes in cycles. Check back in Autumn and you will be pleasantly surprised.
Ships alongside are available. The RN has a number of readiness states R0- R9 that determine their availability to deploy to sea. R0 is top of the tree for Boomers, R9 the bottom for refit ships or in extended readiness. Most RN vessels are at something like R4 which means that they are at 48hrs notice for sea or available to sail with reduced capability. If you do a job onboard that is going to breach that notice then you are required to inform Fleet HQ so that the planners can account for it. Even ships in refit are at… Read more »
It doesn’t have to be RN stock though does it?
Surely the government could just purchase stock directly from a supplier, subject to availability, and deliver it directly without impacting RN reserves?
Only the US can have enough stockpile on these ammunition.
In Europe we dont doesnt really know the concept of “strategic stock” for highend ammunitions.
The US doesnt either, they dont have enough stock to provide even a single reload to every ship if all VLS currently deployed were discharged.
Probably yes but at the scale they have more flexbility to deliver 30-100 complex ammunition than us (UK/FR), mostly because we dont use all the same missile for all categories, even if I think MBDA in its all can have a great production rate
I’m curious to know if for MBDA exist a possibility to launch a great scale production..
I mean, all MDBA cells cannot produce all missile of MBDA group.
But… Does the governments and MBDA have anticipated the possibility to launch some emergency production, I think no…
Ironically, The armed forces of Ukraine, are being modernised and being re-armed to a higher standard and a lot faster than if they had joined NATO!.
Yes but who is paying. How is Ukraine going to pay back the UK loans? This may not end well for UK taxpayers……
It would be much better to just give them the money as a deterrent to Russia. if war breaks out it will cost UK much more in terms of higher gas prices that will wreck our economy.
Any money would just vanish into offshore bank accounts.
Sorry weapons not money
You can see things like that, but you can also think its better to provide weapons to Ukraine soldiers than sending UK/NATO soldiers in Ukraine.
Steel is less valuable than blood.
It’s long term you buy allegiance now for benefit later it’s a policy that France has exploited very profitably for decades. The only problem is if Ukraine exists later.
We, the UK taxpayers will be paying for this lot. The likelihood of that £1.7B loan being repaid is tiny as they are a bankrupt country.
Anyone here cheering the supply of ‘stuff’ to Ukraine should remember it means that £ for £ that is less to spend on our military.
Not sure the systems delivered in Ukraine are top notch…
Probably mostly old gen taken from stocks, but with a great quantity, that’s enough.
A positive step to help our friends out in a time of need. It was interesting to read that the RN are looking into hypersonic missiles. No doubt one or two people on here will be spouting their usual guff about ECM and how they miss their target! “It was clear from the words of the outgoing First Sea Lord that the RN has almost certainly decided not to purchase an Interim Surface to Surface Guided Weapon (I-SSGW) to replace the already obsolete Harpoon Block 1C which will go out of service in 2023. “ISSGW has been paused” said Radakin. The… Read more »
The big problem here was that some existing systems like LRASM are very, very good, and if the RN went for a first rate interim system, there woukd be little point in continuing to pour taxpayers money into FCASW which for all intents purposes may never actually produce a viable weapon. Same old story…..
A vehicle travelling faster than Mach 5, is pretty easy to track with either radar or infrared. The difficult part is working out the interception point. Radar has been tracking objects travelling at Mach 25 and faster for the last 70 years. These objects are satellites orbiting the Earth and manned/unmanned missions leaving the Earth. A satellites speed will be determined depending on their altitude and type of orbit, so can be anything from Mach 12 past Mach 25. Both the Sampson and S1850M have proven they can track objects travelling at speeds over Mach 12. As they can tack… Read more »
Fantastic post as always DB showing insight and tech knowledge. I wish some forum members would watch less tv and read more physics. Nobody mentions that the FT report on the Chinese hypersonic missile test indicated that it missed it’s target by appx. 25 nautical miles!
I do sometimes wonder if the top brass just get blinded with the latest technology, making the mistaken assumption that everything before it is either useless or simply obsolete.
The shame that was the Duncan Sandys report immediately comes to mind. As is the push for high mobility strike brigades, did I mention FRES and the side-lining of the MBT.
No, 20 nautical miles and that was their first test, depending on what website you viewed it on!
A very thorough explanation as always and like you say, something will always be produced to counter it like stealth on the F-35 for example. My point is why have the RN decided to look into this as opposed to an interim solution? most probably because it will keep us ahead of the game and less likely to be detected by countermeasures as technology advancements increase. After all, if we can now track and shoot down hypersonic missiles in theory, what use are the current versions five years from now? The UK military is all set to induct powerful Sky Sabre SAM… Read more »
I really can’t see the rationale behind why the RN has shelved the interim missile requirement? Especially as one of the contenders is being integrated on the F35 (NSM/JSM). This would have given the Navy a common-ish solution, that would have eased logistics, training and maintenance. Plus it would have been a better impetus for giving the F35 a longer ranged stand-off capability, but also a true anti-ship capability, rather than just a mission kill (Spear-3). One explanation may be trying to save money, but with current events that might bite them in the arse. Realistically, how quick and easy… Read more »
It’s a bit like purchasing a new computer, the chip gets updated every six months so when do you actually buy one? At some point, you simply have to because it’s needed now, so I suggested fitting the JSM/NSM to Typhoon at least one year ago as you may recall and again recently only to be told it will take too long to fit and cost too much? And guess what we need something more advanced now! “The missile flight test program started early 2015 with numerous captive carry tests on an F-16 and will continue with flight tests of… Read more »
Very good summary DaveyB. Especially the attack on the USS Mason. And lessons learned and system improvements will know doubt have been gained from that experience. Everyone massively underestimates the difficulty of finding, tracking, and engaging a modern warship at range that doesn’t want to be found and engaged. Modern ECM is deadly, and every trick in the book will be used to counter these systems. As hard as industry is working to make hypersonic missiles a reality, sombody else is working even hard to counter them. And industry and military generals are very good at bigging up the threats… Read more »
We need AShM capability now. Pausing/dropping an interim AShM saved £250m at the same time as BJ decided to spend £250m on a new royal yacht. Meanwhile any RN escort would be toast long before they or their Wildcat helicopters got close enough to any Russian/PLAN warship to do any damage.
The more we play Russian roulette with leaving major warfighting kit off our warships, the greater the likelyhood of us shooting ourselves. And we’ve played this silly game far too long. We’ve far too few escorts to gift enemies with easy kills.
The yacht doesn’t exist yet and hasn’t been mentioned for some time. The RN has been playing this game for a very long time and has been very successful at it in theatres across the globe. They would not be easy kills. No modern Western warship would be an easy kill. The Russian fleet is old and unreliable, hence the tugs that accompany most deployments. This is not underestimating the threat. But there are far too many bigging them up, making them out to be golden bullet invincible laser death ray warships. They are not. Russia is the 11th largest… Read more »
I would respectfully suggest that your comments are out of date, For example it is very difficult to judge different countries against each other but using the latest Economist big Mac index to level currencies it looks as if the Russian economy could be actually bigger than Germany and heading towards Japan. The Russian Navy is getting a steady flow of new or refurbished ships and submarines whilst reliability seems better. The Slava and Udaloy out of Vladivostok have made it to the Med without a tug as did the 3 landing craft from Murmansk and 3 from Kaliningrad that… Read more »
If you believe the Russian economy is bigger than Germany then either Mr Putin pays you well or you also believe that Germany won the WWII. I believe I read an article recently that suggested a significant number of Russian hospitals had no running water or central heating.
Isn’t that the point? The overall economy isn’t what you use to judge, it’s effective military spend. Spending less on hospital central heating systems doesn’t degrade missile effectiveness.
Putin choosing to spend on the military rather than hospitals is why there are currently a threat, not why they aren’t.
Sadly the only Government paying me is the UK’s, my pension.
Sorry, but there is no way Russia has a larger economy than Germany. With 2021 figures, Germany is the 4th largest in the world, and Russia 11th
I agree that that is what some sets of figures show and the problem is that the Russian economic data doesn’t fit the models very well. An economy that is capable of producing Yasens on a production line at the rate they are at an understated Ruble value has to be up there in the top 4/5.
It just shows they prioritising defence spending over other government responsibilities. What are the good Russian public going without the fund the defence budget.
A bit like the US whose infrastucture is falling apart, uncountable homeless on the streets, an out of control Fentanyl problem but the best military money (borrowed) can buy.
Hi Frank62,
2027 to fit onboard an RN warship or two years to fit on Typhoon.
But yes, we need something urgently.
Aren’t the Italians / MBDA not already integrating Marte-ER (×6) onto Eurofighter and have they also not completed naval helo integration of Marte onto Ah101 merlin family.
Not perfect ….but eurofighter provides NE Atlantic / North Sea and East Med coverage while helo option provides some additional punch and range to naval units.
Too sensible Pete, just think if we had this on our Typhoon’s and Merlin’s, it would complement Venom and Martlet nicely. The Italians are going strong what with new diesel subs and their DDX’s, the latter’s CGI on twitter (and hopefully it’s not a joke) showing 16×8 VLS plus 6×4 AShMs, possibly 6×6 CAMM-ER and others and a Osprey type craft on the pad and we haven’t even got the T83 on the drawing board yet!? Are we behind the eight ball or what?! If Harpoon is going out and the fittings are still on RN ships well why not… Read more »
Absolutely. 3 or 4 Brimstone from 40km away or a couple of spear3 from 100km will mission kill most vessels. For all the reasons you list I just cannot understand the MoDs thinking.. I would put Brimstone into Rivers B2 and use two of them for gulf escort duties and free up a type 23.
Plan now for bolting onto type 31s as soon as they are commissioned .
Not sure I agree with the UK taxpayer being left to pick up the bill for all this military aid…very unlikely Ukraine will ever be able to pay for it.
The NLaw’s provided are old original inventory and would expire their shelf life in 3-5 years anyway. Providing weapons that may deter a war is cheaper then getting involved in a war. Most British tax payers are very pleased with the contribution!
I get your point Pete but don’t agree with your logic that we should pass weapons close to expiry date to someone who might be able to use them rather than ‘allow them to go to waste’ ? In this particular case (Ukraine / Donbass) I don’t even agree that providing them is helping to deter aggression…on the contrary, it is encouraging Ukraine to believe it can solve the problem by force rather than diplomacy (Minsk Agreement).
🤣 your hilarious ‘Kayaker’ You talk diplomacy but yet 130000 Russian troops have been gathered from all corners of the Putin Empire and are parked on the Ukrain border and most of the Russian navy that floats is in the black sea or Med. The provision of such defensive weapons followed the build up witnessed. Putin is behaving like a spoilt school yard bully. ‘ play with me or I’ll hit you’. He is a pathetic individual. …..strong bully…but pathetic individual . If he goes ahead the Russian people will be driven into the economic wilderness and many more nations… Read more »
After very recent attempts by outsiders to instigate coups in both Belarus and Kazakhstan, and with historic broken promises made to Gorbachev by James Baker that NATO would not expand Eastwards, any competent leader would look to ensure they had strong defences against a totally untrustworthy NATO. In addition Erdogan has reportedly promised Ukraine it will help them ‘regain’ the Crimea should hostilities with Russia breakout…hence the prudent gathering of the fleets in the Black Sea…these ships will be needed to take part in the Tomahawk shoot should the Americans want to put on another firework display. As for the… Read more »
Lol. You talk about Russia’s right to do what it wants within its own borders but you also deny the right of other sovereign nations to conduct their affairs the way they want to. Hilarious. The current actions of Putin will possibly simply serve to drive more nations towards NATO. Finland, Sweden, may be prime candidates. The only countries (rulers) aligning themselves to Putin are equal despotes who deny democratic principles, imprison their opposition, deny free media and rule by fear and intimidation. Now not all western leaders are competent or rational…but they are accountable. I truly hope wider conflict… Read more »
The £1.7bn UK loan for the FIAC purchase was approved in the Ukranian Parliament on the 27th of January, likely what hes referring to. The armament hasnt been officially announced but likely Maritime Brimstone. As its a modular plug and play cannister launcher the UK could ship the launchers and ammunition out straight away and they could temporarily set them up on shore or other boats until the new patrol boats have been built.
if this is the Harpoon, I think its a great way in which to save money by not upgrading them, well played Carrie, she can use the money saved on more wallpaper.
Farouk, I heard we were going to buy a French missile and gift it to Ukraine 🇺🇦 😜
Sorry, only joking, I couldn’t help myself 😀
Are you sure, I heard that it was President Putin who gifted Macron with a missile whislt dressed as a french policeman.
And hold a party to celebrate.
That wasn’t a party 🎉 it was a work function, and neither of them attended, they were just present.
Of course not, -Silly me!
Easy mistake to make, them wearing party hats, and the loud music and booze. But that is the subtlety of diplomacy 😀
I’m a little suprised, seeing that Ukraine already has a much more modern ASM missile in service (came on line last year) https://i.postimg.cc/BvqM1Lz6/Opera-Snapshot-2022-02-09-124753-www-military-today-com.png The RK-360MC Neptun (Neptune) is a Ukrainian anti-ship missile system. It was developed by Luch design bureau. It uses R-360 anti-ship cruise missile. It is a Ukrainian version of the Russian KH-35U The Ukrainian missile is generally similar to the Kh-35U, but has a longer body with more fuel, larger booster, and some other modifications. This missile was first announced in 2013. First examples were reportedly completed and tested in 2016. At the time this missile reportedly… Read more »
Maybe it is one of two possibilities, firstly the money, the loan of 1.7 billion could have been tied to some portion or most of the money being spent on UK products. And secondly production. Ukraine 🇺🇦 may want to have the maximum number of missiles within a time frame, which their domestic production alone may not be able to meet. Even if they means settling for two types of anti ship missile systems.
The first battalion of Neptune is due to be delivered in the first quarter of this year, the manufacturer says they have the industrial capacity to produce 3 battalions per year but so far only two have been ordered, they are looking to exports and have had talks with four countries with Indonesia particularly interested. Its a heavy missile (5.3m x 0.6m cannisters, missile 5.0m and weighing around 0.7 tons) not suitable for attacking or mounting on small ships. Maritime Brimstone on the other hand with a weight of 50kg and 1.8m x 0.18m is suitable for mounting on small… Read more »
Watcherzero, do you know how many missiles and launchers to a battalion?
A missile battalion normally has 3 or 4 launch vehicles ‘erecters’ alongside HQ, communication and support vehicles and one round of reloads. The Neptune test vehicles had 4 cannisters to a truck but other long range anti-ship missile systems have 6 cannisters depending on the size of the missile and truck. So we could estimate a range of 12-24 missiles and 12-24 reloads per battalion.
As a sovereign nation, Ukraine must have the right to pick and choose its own alliances, and we want to see the status quo maintained peaceably. But what of the regions in the Ukraine that may want to secede? Russia shouldn’t use these as a covert means to do violence against its neighbour and gain an upper hand but similarly we should not be entrenching a democratic deficit in the Ukraine by making it harder for said regions to obtain their own independence. Would we violently oppose Scotland if it wanted to leave the union, no we wouldn’t. A legal… Read more »
The obligation for Kiev to listen to its regions has existed since 2015 when it signed up to the Minsk agreement.
JIMK wrote: The obligation for Kiev to listen to its regions has existed since 2015 when it signed up to the Minsk agreement. Correct and that fell by the wayside, was replaced by MInsk 2, which saw DPR Prime minister (and Minsk Protocol signatory) Alexander Zakharchenko saying that his forces would retake the territory the DPR had lost to Ukrainian forces which after seeing the Ukraine agree to pull heavy weapons back 15Kms cashed in and captured a load of land. The point here is Ukraine even when when it followed an agreement it had signed with (lets be honest… Read more »
You are correct, Minsk 2. This is the one that Macron has been pushing in Kiev this week.
Has everyone lost their minds?
This was announced a few months ago…by the British Military Attache in Ukraine.
It’s Brimstone / Sea Spear…
And for those of you who say…’thats not an anti-ship missile’…just have a look at a map and have a think why the Ukraine might want it….
Ukrainian’s have the heavier end of Anti-Shipping covered with their Neptun missile.
regarding the situation in Ukraine, I believe who controls the sky controls the battlefield &as to antiship missiles ,well you can sink as manyships as you like but it wont make a lot of difference to a land invasion. The Ukraine air defence need reinforcing with a few USAF & UK squadrons invited in by Ukraine, forget the rest of the NATO whimps. Control the air space, control the land war.
Supposedly they were getting a new missile for the navy developed in the U.K. I imagine it will be a seeker from here, a motor from there, warhead from this etc etc. If it’s using already developed parts and is put in a frame that’s already developed it shouldn’t be massively expensive or complicated. Until more news comes of what is actually happening we will continue guessing. The Missile only has to work in the Black Sea and Sea of Azov so requirements can be well defined. I don’t think the U.K. companies would say they could do it if… Read more »
It’s the MBDA Brimstone/Sea Spear.
It was announced months ago…
Oh that’s good to know. Hopefully everyone who thinks it harpoon or sea venom etc notices your post.
I didn’t see the announcement but I don’t watch the defence sector all the time. Good luck to them
The irony is that the UK can produce and supply these weapons and yet chooses to have none in our frontline inventory, which is just madness frankly. Our warships are hedgehogs, great in defence but lacking hitting power and the ability to engage and sink the enemy. If Sea Spear carries a 16kg warhead and has 20-30km range – great fit it onto F35Bs, Cannister deck launchers on all river class, Daring class and frigates as a very temporary but useful stop gap measure. The range I dont think is an issue as stealthy warships are sometimes not detected, especially… Read more »
Shame our own forces can’t be provided with the same most basic of naval capabilities!
Well it’s good news to hear we have some anti-ship missiles in the first place
Signs today that Putin has blinked.
‘Russia’s EU ambassador has told the BBC his country still believes diplomacy can help de-escalate the crisis over Ukraine.’ – B.B.C.
Let’s hope so. But what he says & does can be another thing(Like our PM!).
Of course if you were about to invade Ukraine, you’d hardly say that but string along a diplomatic solution.
When even the anti-British Braodcasting Corporation and its stable mate The Guardian have doubts about Putin’s motives you know he is in deep doo-doo. If he invades this will cost thousands of lives and he gains nothing barring a population of subjugated Ukrainians that will detest him in his troops own language. The long suffering Russian people are no nearer seeing the benefits of post Soviet dictatorship and the U.S. and U.K. prise Nord Stream out of Germany’s feeble clutches. A pretty poor performing Russian economy declines at an increased rate. However, it will galvanise the slackers in N.A.T.O. no… Read more »
That isn’t blinking, its restating yet again the position that Russia has held since 2015.
Really? Putin is dished if he proceeds to confirm what the world outside China and North Korea will see as a return to old habits, and put back in his box if he doesn’t. Zugzwang!
Hi Barry, not the world only the Western liberal democracies, India, the Far East, Middle East, Africa and South America may not see it our way at all.
India has joined a pact with Australia (June 2020). Others in the region will either join or associate with this new formation against China (P.R.C.). Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States have opened diplomatic and mutual good relations with Israel, so the west is automatically assured of useful influence there. Saudi’s close relations with America are a keystone for that country. Brazil is the only South American country to worry about and they are onside. Africa can be bought. The Anglosphere is still the only club that doesn’t mean surrendering your country and people to totalitarians – it’s why so… Read more »
Hi Barry we are not talking about China here, India sees China as a strategic threat ( they are wiser that Russia in this case). We are talking about the world wide view of Russia and what is happening in Europe and the truth is that it will not be as clear cut as we in the West think, India has always seen Russia as a nation it can do business with if not a close strategic partner and it will still do business with it as will most other nations. They will more likely see Ukraine as being used… Read more »
First, how do you square your belief in pragmatism as the only potent shaping force in world affairs with a need to examine this country (founder of the western world view), or any other for that matter, in the light of an undefined quality called virtue? To be fair, how well does any country look using the same criteria once you define what virtue is? To keep this short and sweet, I don’t think one advances the international rules based system using abstractions. If any country thinks they will be better off being closer to Russia than the U.S.A. then… Read more »
Barry the pragmatic pursuit of power, influence, wealth resources and security are the only defining factors in the history of nations. Virtue or Morality is not something any nation has. Individuals may undertake acts of virtue or follow their belief system nations do not. I know there is a bit of a propensity to look at the history of nations as black or white.. nations and cultures are either good or evil…So the U.K. is a nation of virtue or the British empire was a scourge on humanity. But both are wrong and correct at the same time. The British… Read more »
Of course we should be supporting Ukraine. But why aren’t we supplying AShMs to our own navy also!!!!
That’s a very good question if sea spear is at a point of being operationally ready and the RN is trying to up the lethality of our surface combatants why do they not have a reasonable number of sea spears on each of the frigate destroyers being deployed. That would be a cheap and ready British missile solution to at least a bit of the gap.
I can’t imagine they would be older heavyweight Antiship missiles like harpoon, you would have to be a bit bonkers to launch a harpoon in enclosed crowed waters like the Black Sea. Harpoon has a great history of hitting random stuff like houses and your best mates frigate. Russia would just love a harpoon hitting some random merchant shipping.
It isn’t. As Rudeboy says above, it is Sea Spear (Brimstone) and was announced months ago.
Hi Rob, just had a quick read around and I’m a bit surprised but it could well be sea spear, I had not thought it had been developed beyond a couple of trials of concept. You must wonder if the MOD/RN had not given a bit of a nod at some point they may want it as developing to ability to deploy would have been an expensive gamble on the part of MBDA.
Another C-17 load went into Kiev today following one yesterday.
We are now up to 14 flights, including 3 A-400M (2 Brize, 1 Akrotiri)
Ukraine will fight back. It can’t win, but the scale of destruction (c.f. Grozny) will be a mark of Putin’s epic failure. He will capture, kill or ‘disappear’ hundreds, thousands. But the end result will be worse for Russia in the short term and for decades to come. The Soviets and their useful idiots couldn’t crush Czechoslovakia in 1968 and they won’t succeed in the Ukraine because that is what people are like when they believe in their country. I would need a lot more space than would be appropriate here to explain this concept of national identity to you.… Read more »
As an Englishman I am well aware of national identity thanks. You seem to be under some kind of delusion that the Russians have an intention to attack Ukraine, apart from defending Donbas. Every statement made by them has been to the contrary, including to Truss yesterday. Putin doesn’t want to and neither do the Russian people. It seems to be only the US, us and Poland that are egging a conflict on. Russia’s strategic interests and future are now in its south and east, it just wants to feel secure in its west so it can move on. This… Read more »
The fact that you believe what you write is true or ought to be so, is perhaps the most interesting part of your comments. Donbas was seized, liberated, crushed, ‘largely peacefully’ (©B.B.C.) along with Crimea and 14,000 have died so far (not counting a civilian airliner blown out of the sky minding its own business). Russia doesn’t want to seize Ukraine it just wants to surround it with a large military force and now seal off it’s ports? That kind of not wanting to make an aggression? There is no earthly way the west is going to invade Russia. Since… Read more »
I do. My experience watching it from afar was that Donbas was not like that. I can’t see how it is possible for Russia to surround Ukraine this side of WW3. The current NOTAMs, if that is what you are thinking do not seal off the ports. The doors to Russia did open wide and they responded well but the West then abused it and had a very good attempt at financially raping it whilst having people in all Russian ministries. Can you give a Russian source for Putin’s plans to recreate the USSR? Half my family is Norwegian and… Read more »
If Ukraine survive an invasion the UK should gift them some of the Tranche 1 Eurofighters that are being withdrawn.
I know they expensive to maintain but if Ukraine falls in the future the Russians are on NATO’s borders!
No one will want old, impossible to update, and costly to run aircraft. They would be better off with new build F16V or Gripen. Russia is already on NATO’s border. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland all share borders with Russia, the latter two with Kaliningrad.
Or not bothering with fast air and investing into a top notch integrated air defence system and a huge quantity of drones.
I think the problem is Russia sees it as NATO is now on its border. There are always multiple views of the mountain.
True, and that means a US port near Odessa and airfields and SSM inland plus the inevitable large exercises, as per the Baltics, right up to the border. The Russians like that as much as the US liked the Russians in Cuba. The US reacted back then just as the Russians are reacting now.
They don’t have the money.
George Alison, have you seen this mate.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/watch-mind-blowing-footage-of-actual-jet-suit-flying-between-2-fast-moving-royal-navy-boats_4185139.html?utm_source=News&utm_campaign=breaking-2022-02-10-4&utm_medium=email&est=7natnc4nxd2fi3b5HyiHNg7JMSfsEuOYS0nUnOqbyreDiDHH5Otps9Cb
Why cant the West supplysubmarines to Ukraine and offset the advance on Odessa?