HMS Prince of Wales will “make history” with both combat and re-supply drones flying from her deck.
Britain’s biggest warship today sailed for her autumn deployment today – her longest yet, pushing the limits of aircraft carrier operations with drones, fifth-generation stealth fighters, tilt-rotors and helicopters. She’s heading to the east coast of the United States.
By the time she returns home shortly before Christmas, the Royal Navy say that they expect that the ship will have:
|
According to a statement:
“Once in the Channel the ship’s company will conduct trials with UK-firm W Autonomous Systems to assess the feasibility of drones delivering supplies to Royal Navy vessels at sea – initially flying in up to 100kg of stores. Both the Royal Navy and its supporting flotilla from the Royal Fleet Auxiliary are experimenting with drone technology – saving launching large, expensive naval helicopters to perform the missions.”
Commanding Officer Captain Richard Hewitt was quoted in a press release as saying:
“We are all excited for the longest deployment of HMS Prince of Wales. Being the first to operate with this level of drones will be a huge achievement and keep us on the front foot as we prepare for the next major Carrier Strike Group deployment in 2025.”
Once in the USA, the ship will embark F-35B stealth fighters for the final phase of pushing the boundaries of the UK’s fifth-generation jets’ operating limits from the carrier.
“The F-35 has undergone extensive trials and assessment both in the US and UK operating from the flight decks of both Queen Elizabeth-class carriers and has deployed operationally. Pushing the boundaries will see more advanced take-off and landing techniques tested (SRVL, for one) , allowing the F-35s to return to the carrier faster and heavier (i.e with more fuel and weapons aboard) which cuts the time between sorties, allowing the ship to launch more strike missions, faster.”
What is Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing and why is it a good idea?
HMS Prince of Wales will also be looking to launch and land the Lightning jets in the heaviest sea states, proving that they can operate the jets in the harshest environments.
“Once the work with the F-35s is complete, focus will shift again to the next-generation of Short Take-Off and Landing drones currently under development. The Mojave drone can carry a 1,500lb payload of missiles, rockets or bombs and has been specifically designed to land and take-off from short runways, or flight decks.
Trials are lined up to see whether the Mojave can land on the 901ft-long deck of the Prince of Wales. The carrier’s stint Stateside will conclude by expanding the US Marine Corps’ unique tilt-rotor MV-22 Ospreys operating limits.”
Hi folks hope all is well.
Will there be any submarines including in the escort of her deployment?
I have seen an article in the Navy Lookout stating all our attack subs are in dock at the moment? Is this normal? Once again I’ll leave to you soon experts on this site to advise me.
Cheers
George
As the u.k carriers are a major NATO asset I’d expect that ther will be one about
Which ships will make up the escorts?
Only Ship announced is HMS Dauntless which will meet up with HMS POW on the other side of the Atlantic.
Thank’s – Seems a bit light.
With the North Atlantic being some what of a NATO lake the carrier does not require a battle group to escort it. US carriers travel with one escort as well until they reach the eastern Mediterranean.
Makes sense Thank’s
She’s going for flight trials off the coast of America…
Wish I could see that. Will be special with the landing of the F-35B landing (SRVL)
Hi George, for this deployment over to Westlant, I doubt we will be sending one, don’t really need to as we are operating in Uncle Sams backyard. Although the USN might supply a SSN or so for ASW trials if she is doing any?
Suspect that the priority is the QE upcoming CSG23 deployment, and that is what our SSN force will be gearing up towards.
An intermediate measure could potentially include an ASW variant T-23, provided one is available. Agree w/ your assessment that a USN boat would be made available, if preplanned, or situation warranted (although evidently there is a helluva backlog of USN SSNs awaiting maintenance).
I don’t believe there are any ASW trials per se, but you never know!
Yes agree, you are probably in a worse situation than we are ref maintenance issues despite having more yards to do the work. Have read that the damaged Seawolf SSN will have to wait until 2026 to get into dock at the earliest! If correct, not a good position for any of us. It’s always the small unglamorous stuff that bits you in the rear….
Apparently they (SSN) are all in Port ATM so not likely.
While in port at least one will be able to deploy rapidly if required. Each boat will have a list of what’s wrong with it and what it needs to deploy and how long that will take etc.
Not in dock, just alongside. Crews on the summer hols.
UK has twice the number of frigates France have, I guess that one at least will be available. Given the status of our submarine fleet, I am pretty sur that no french sub will be available.
UK has twice the number of frigates France have, I guess that one at least will be available. Given the status of our submarine fleet, I am pretty sur that no french sub will be available, unfortunatly.
Why does it need escorts? Unless the colonial cousins are getting rowdy on that side of the pond there is zero threat and she can go as a singleton and join up with the T45 that’s over there.
Just as the CVS’s used to do all the time even into ‘hostile’ waters on their own as did the old Ark R before them with her heavy CAG 🙂 A bit OTT for these new carriers really. CVS’s used to embark instant sunlight too which these new ones will never ever do.
Looking forward to seeing what happens with the Mojave drone trials.
Carrier bourne drone operations are the future, to be at the forefront of operational abilities in this kind of warfare, can only be a good thing.
All drone development is interesting, but there’s two key subjects we’re not getting updates on. Dragonfire, Tara is are the ones that come to mind.we hear Dragonfire system is in a testing process but we’ve been told that for ages.
The last update I saw on Dragonfire was 9 months ago in a video. (Link)
and Sabre, which is perhaps the most truly revolutionary technology that could change everything.
The sabre engine?
Although its not Dragonfire, it is overarching laser weapon orientated and worth the read.
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23932803/navy-shipboard-lasers-background-and-issues-for-congress-aug-24-2023.pdf
Agreed and a very useful addition to the carriers for future operations. “Short-Takeoff and Landing (STOL) from Semi-improved Runways Mojave provides options for forward-basing operations without the need for typical paved runways or infrastructure. It can takeoff and land from countless remote semi-improved surfaces while under pilot control via a traditional ground control station or scalable command and control laptop solution. STOL capability increases the number of employment options, potentially including aircraft carrier-based options, unlocking naval missions and sea-based support for special operations forces. Unmatched Payload Capacity Not only can Mojave quickly land, re-arm and re-launch from austere sites, located… Read more »
UK Peregrine UAS completes factory acceptance testing01 SEPTEMBER 2023 “Thales and Schiebel have successfully completed factory acceptance testing (FAT) of the UK Royal Navy’s (RN’s) Peregrine Camcopter S-100 rotary-wing unmanned aircraft system (UAS) integrated with Thales l-Master radar. Announcing the milestone on 30 August, the two companies said the FAT approval marked an important step towards the final delivery of the Camcopter S-100 UAS Peregrine system, which is destined to provide RN Duke-class Type 23 frigates with enhanced situational awareness, principally in the Gulf region. With the FAT approval in place, the Peregrine programme is set to commence its first deliveries… Read more »
It’s really fantastic to see this moving forward. I do wonder though where Schiebel has got to with its S-300 development and whether the RN might expand its project to include that at some point. The S-100 looks good for surveillance but with about a 35kg non-fuel payload to maintain 6 hour endurance, it can’t really host both a good sensor/designator package plus the couple of Martlet (Martlets as seen in one often-used photo of the S-100). The S-300 on the other hand has “up to” 24 hour endurance with a 50kg payload (i.e. a good sensor package) and even… Read more »
I couldn’t agree more and I hope we will see the S-300 in our inventory for use aboard the carriers sometime in 2024.
Schiebel Presents New Camcopter S-300 Unmanned Aerial Vehicle at Paris Air Show
LINK
https://i0.wp.com/militaryleak.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/schiebel-presents-new-camcopter-s-300-unmanned-aerial-vehicle-at-paris-air-show.jpg
These are perfect for the RN
surely these are a must haves for the rivers if nothing else…
They certainly look like a perfect fit as you say!
Lets hope we get enough to go round? The OPV’s certainly would greatly benefit from such and they have the space for them and add to replying units as a basic fit. Perhaps a new RN FAA Squadron to operate them would be great in the 800 series 🙂
Agreed 🙏
Getting Mohave flying off the carriers will be a great step towards what I think is the goal of using STOL Protector in years to come.
The problem i am seeing with these drone models is their wing size, they seem to be too big.
Mojave has a reduced wingspan as part of a kit that can be added within the day i believe. Its a genuine game changer with regards persistent armed AEW especially against asymmetric threats
Folding wings will probably be needed if to be on board often. Perhaps the whole wing comes off with a few easy access bolts.
folding wings are part of the package guys this might help
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUX0FCQzGvU&ab_channel=Defense360%C2%B0
Folding wings, new tail all part of the mod kit
Good news on the Mojave which has to be the way forward for naval strike missions. Whether in the end (soon?) it is the drone of choice we shall see as we are unlikely to get many more, if any F35’s, available to the carriers.
Slightly faster than a Swordfish, the Mojave will struggle to take off at MTOW from a QE deck without assistance, according to the t/off distances published by General Atomics. For persistent ISR tasks, Mojave looks very promising.
What if
I assume that this will all be tested in the upcoming trial. Air over deck ought to reduce t/off distances. Not sure whether the plan is to use the ski jumps. If so, it might be sensible to test them on land first.
IN 2021 General Atomics open a facility in Patuxent River where they do the land based ski jump. But not seen any evidence of ski jump testing. But it has been test on unprepared strips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3SQ50wxvCY&ab_channel=GeneralAtomicsAeronauticalSystems%2CInc.
If let’s say in the near future, we needed to deploy both carriers at the same time against a credible opponent, would that be possible given the RNs relatively small surface/escort fleet? We might just have enough Frigates but Type 45s? I personally have my doubts!
Why in the near future would we want to deploy both carriers at the same time? F35 numbers won’t even fill one carrier to capacity. We could use them both in a single task force with adequate escort numbers but other than providing a back up, the second carrier wouldn’t add to the power projected.
That unfortunately demonstrates how far short of the original ambition the carrier capability still remains.
Ultimately 75 F35Bs will be delivered to the RAF. 1 was lost so that leaves 74.
In the Falklands most SH went south, with 74 F35s, 2 CSG’s of 24 F35s each should be achievable.
Evening mate. No, not enough T45 unless 4 are available. So 2 each. Usual scenario. What credible opponents will we fight alone without NATO? The 2nd carrier can deploy if needed, within a larger group, and there are allied escorts to go with the RN ones. This is geostrategic fact, so I care not for the moaners that we are “hiding” behind NATO. We are a part of it, and operate within it. So use it if that peer opponent is also a NATO opponent. The airwing and supporting RFA assets are a greater issue. The UK’s F35s could I… Read more »
Evening sir, OK I know & agree with what you are saying about how we are a NATO member, but let’s say for example, the ‘ Falklands’ scenario, if we had to go it alone, I have to admit there are no possible ( future )threats I can think of, but if there was, would we be found wanting/ lacking? I know this question is very hypothetical and I think I may have actually answered it myself thinking of your reply 🤔🤔
They would have to get past a very capable force already based in the Falklands first. We could deploy a very capable force to the Falklands if we really needed too, at a push. A single Astute with TLAM could inflict huge damage with pin point accuracy from hundreds of miles away. As Danielle pointed out. RFA support is the most worrying gap. It is a highly unlikely scenario. And Argentina is not capable of such a complex operation currently. But it’s amazing what can be achieved when we are put on a war setting, and the government opens the… Read more »
Hi Robert, your post reminds me of the Falklands fall out in ’82. Suddenly money was available. HMS Invincible retained, replacement frigates ordered, and the Nott review cuts stopped.
Falklands 2 shouldn’t be able to happen. So long as the airfield holds there can be more fast jets/P8 there within 24 hours and continue to come after that.
Money can always be found. It’s what the government choose to spend it on. Just now it’s not defence.
Completely agree MS!
Hi mate.Sorry I think I forgot to reply to your last post to me. Apologies. People often make the mistake of thinking if something kicks off, then we have to make do with what we have today. But the reality is, money is suddenly available, and upgrades, and weapons integrations ect suddenly happen almost overnight. The defence industry kicks into overdrive, and amazing things happen very quickly indeed. The Gulf wars in 1990/91 and 2003 were very good examples of this in action. Same with all the UOR’s during the Afghanistan years. 👍
Good stuff ,thanks for the reply Robert. Stay well. 👍
But it was a different world back then.
Probably somewhat out of my depth w/ this reply (sorry, couldn’t resist), but there are some significant caveats w/ TLAM usage currently w/ single RN Astute class deployments. Firstly, the stated maximum load out is stated to be 38 weapons, presumably some variable proposition of which would be torpedoes. This would be alleviated if additional Astutes were sortied, however the next constraint encountered would be the strictly limited RN TLAM inventory. Current open source info indicates the RN complement is being updated to Block V, but there has been no indication of purchase of additional weapons to date. Even if… Read more »
Wow, my previous post highlights the hazards of posting at the end of a long day. The sentence should read…the stated maximum load out is 38 weapons, presumably some variable proportion of which would be torpedoes…🙄 Lesson learned. 🤔
I’ll send you some of my medication.it makes you go a bit stupid and your other half might not notice, mine hates me so I can take, do, drink and think anything I like, it’s the dog I can’t con, he sussed me out years ago 😭😭
We currently have some 55-60 Tomahawks left, as you say they will be upgraded to BLK V, although which variant isn’t entirely clear. Personally believe its probably BLK V with improved guidance systems as opposed to VA or VB versions. I haven’t seen any mention of any new stock being purchased as part of the contract either! Unfortunately we won’t have any available until 2024/5 where we will no doubt have to conduct a test firing to confirm the capability. Due to the fact that our versions are Tube launched limits any potential strike to 4 missiles a go, before… Read more »
Exactly, thanks. Central thesis is that life will be simpler from a logistics viewpoint, across a variety of munitions, once everyone adopts the VPM standard for SSNs. However, realistically, that is 15-20 years ànd another SSN generation into the future. 🤔😳🤞
I’ve oft advocated that we should have a first dibs to buy any major piece of kit that the Americans are to retire everyone else trades in major hardware when we try it we get ripped off the sale of ocean for less than the price of the refit she’d not long Been out of, the scandal around the T22 sales to Romania, where,£60 million just disappeared to an unnamed ‘fixer’ is still unresolved. I drive a foreign car, it does what I want it to do. Why shouldn’t a British soldier drive a foreign tank? Or pilots in a… Read more »
Yes that highly formidable royal navy ship, could be a real problem to an aggressor. Tell me what can a river do that echo or enterprise could not? The rivers are the RN Swiss army knife, busy everywhere. Flexible, cheap, no frills, no threat to anyone else just by being there. The two echo’s on the other hand could be anything, we used to be an innovative nation, now we don’t even try.an echo could play mother in USV work it could for heaven’s sake be turned into a cruiser. Nobody seems to be able to think outside the box… Read more »
I guess this wasn’t meant for me. But adapting warships to fulfill completely different roles from what they were originally designed to do, Is generally a bad idea. This nation is incredibly adaptable. And trying push a square peg into a round hole costs more in the longer term, and with less capability.
Mate, Dan, mate, or Daniele is fine! “Sir” Lol…
As a NATO member in 1982 the UK WASN’T EXACTLY FLOODED WITH OFFERS OF HELP FROM THE REST OF THE ORGANISATION. IF THE U.S OR SAY THE FRENCH HAD OFFERED TO ASSIST A FELLOW MEMBER, WITH A CARRIER, THEN ITS POSSIBLE THAT NO ships would have been lost at all I’ve always been a sceptical soul when it comes to the organisation. It’s deployment as a organisation seems at best fanciful, the usual suspects like the French, are flakey and will always be looking for ways not to be involved. The world in 1982, was very different from today.for meNATO… Read more »
Daniele, I admire your optimism but don’t think the increase in funds necessary to make full use of the carriers as designed is going to be made available by any government. Added to the financial constraints( but not wholly unconnected) are the continuing manpower shortages in both RN and RFA. There appears to be sufficient funding in the 10 year plan to deliver T26 and T31 along with new solid support ships, but the withdrawal of the first attempts at MRSS and T32 configuration suggests that initial ambitions will have to be cut back, either in numbers or capability. The… Read more »
There is no issue with the MRSS project. The Albions are less than 20 years old but will have a lot more life in them given they’re being alternated in service. The Bays are all less than 17 years old. There is no yard space available until H&W finishes the FSSS build or when the Babcock contract to support the carriers runs out in 2032. Equally T32 won’t be able to be built until the T31 build finishes. The designs seem pretty mature so presumably all that’s happening is the RN is waiting for a final decision and money. An… Read more »
The RN withdrew proposals for the designs of MRSS and T32 because of concerns about affordability. So funding, even if there is currently no black hole, obviously remains tight.
Your 74 F35 scenario is a possibilty over time. But looking at how long it has taken to acquire @ half that number, the ability to deploy 2x 24 is almost certainly years away. Even if achievable, there is then the problem of inadequate escort numbers to form two separate carrier groups.
By the end of this year there’ll be 36 F35B’s in service which is the second largest 5th gen carrier force in the world. By 2025 there’ll be 47 F35B’s in service which is the third largest carrier force in the world, and still the second largest 5th gen force. I cannot think of a single scenario where the UK would have to deploy 2 separate CSG’s without allies. I’m sure the RN doesn’t have the money right now for MRSS and T32 considering they recently ordered 5 frigates and 3 FSSS, Mk41 for T31, NSM sets, upgrading Aster and… Read more »
Always consider that, if UCAVs can offer an alternative and more affordable option for the UK (don’t disagree, of course), they offer a much more numerous affordable option for any other navy with greater resources. In other words, you’ll likely not overcome the issue of available funds.
Rgs
As designed, no. With Drones maturing, yes.
Time will tell. Curious that after years of testing, the USN is limiting UCAV operations to refuelling rather than strike or ISR roles.
I am more concerned the the reduction of the F35 order has left the RAF. far smaller than it was in 2010 with no obvious plans to increase combat aircraft numbers. In comparison, the shortfall in carrier capability is arguably less critical, since it is a capability we have managed without for years. Even what we have today could probably be more effective than the Invincibles.
Good summary
This is what happens when you get a fixation of ordering in batches of 5 . At the proposed price, and order of just 5 type 31 ‘s is rediculous, even then a projected 5 ships(T32),that haven’t even been designed yet is the same.6 type 45’s was never going to be enough to cover the tasking needs. Now we’re talking about the next destroyer class which I expect will cost significantly more than a type 26, an order exceeding 5 will be over optimistic type 32 is a distraction from what the navy is already committed to.T26 and 31, will… Read more »
There are very few scenarios in which the Royal Navy would need to deploy 2 carriers without allies in 2 separate places. In a Falklands scenario the CSG’s can be merged. Not ideal, but necessary. 3 T45s could probably be deployed in such a situation. A massive CSG with 2 carriers, 3 T45s and however many T23s would be quite well protected. The major constraint would be Fort Vic which is already in a poor state. Given a QE has enough stores for 400 sorties and the trip from Ascension to the CSG would be at least 12 days, likely… Read more »
The RFA is the squeeze. Perhaps something can be cobbled together with merchant ships doing leg work outside a conflict zone bringing items closer.
Sustained naval ops are really demanding on resupply and that only gets harder the further away things happen.
And why do we need these when in a couple of years we’ll be more focused on NA and North Sea? Flying the longer range land based version to cover these areas makes far more sense. These only make sense for a navy which will remain global.
It seems increasingly likely that PoW will embark a detachment of USMC MV-22 Osprey tiltrotors as part of CSG25. It would be fantastic to see a UK V-22 order before the production line closes in early 2026, but very unlikely given the high cost of the aircraft and competing urgent priorities.
Looks like QNLZ is sailing from Portsmouth on Friday. Tweets imply there will be photo op in the Channel with PWLS before they go their separate ways – Med and US east coast respectively. Home for Xmas! First time both carriers have made extended deployments simultaneously.
Now official, QNLZ sails from Portsmouth at 1850 on Friday for CSG23. Escorted by Diamond.