The Royal Navy currently has two aircraft carriers at sea, both flying F-35 jets. This is something that only one other navy in the world is capable of.
Separated by 7,000 miles, HMS Prince of Wales in the North Sea and HMS Queen Elizabeth in the Pacific have been launching and recovering the stealth strike fighter on round-the-clock sorties.
The Royal Navy say here that until now, the ships have embarked the fifth-generation jets but never have the two 65,000-tonne behemoths launched the fighters from their flight decks at the same time.
“That’s now changed with HMS Prince of Wales exercising with the RAF’s 207 Squadron in waters close to the UK, while, on the other side of the world, HMS Queen Elizabeth carries out flying operations over the Pacific with her jets from 617 Squadron and VMFA-211 of the US Marine Corps.”
📽️ Lightning strikes twice… ⚡️⚡️
Britain’s two new aircraft carriers @HMSPWLS and @HMSQNLZ have been conducting simultaneous F-35B fast jet operations for the first time – thousands of miles apart in the North Sea and Pacific Ocean.
Read more: https://t.co/rWcNeSQVu0 pic.twitter.com/UuJKp7bIPp
— Royal Navy (@RoyalNavy) September 15, 2021
“This is an extraordinary achievement for the Royal Navy and represents the true global reach we have in this current era,” said First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Tony Radakin, in a news release.
“It demonstrates the enduring strength of our alliances and partnerships and is the result of decades of work and dedication to achieve this feat with the Queen Elizabeth-class carriers.”
Three UK F-35Bs from 207 Squadron are currently on board HMS Prince of Wales as she goes through the final demanding stages of becoming fully operational this autumn.
“Pilots are carrying out carrier qualifications day and night to ensure they are ready for missions ahead, while the ship is going through the world-renowned Fleet Operational Sea Training (FOST) programme. This tests ships and personnel to the limit in order to qualify them for operations.”
Later this month, HMS Prince of Wales will also take part in the largest military exercise in the UK, Joint Warrior, off the Scottish coast to test her ability to work alongside other naval, air force and army assets and as part of broader task group operations.
HMS Queen Elizabeth meanwhile is fresh from exercises with the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force and a port visit to Yokosuka, which was a key moment in the Carrier Strike Group (CSG) deployment, say the Royal Navy. The CSG deployment has taken the aircraft carrier and her supporting warships across the Atlantic, Mediterranean, Indian Oceans and into the Pacific, working with allies and partners along the way.
When is the next Batch of F35’s due to arrive in the UK and any idea how many? Not to detract from the above but the numbers would need to be upped considerably to field two carrier groups simultaneously not to mention the number of hulls needed to create two Task forces
Last I heard, they’re on track for 40 by 2024. Seems ambitious to me given the slow uptake thus far
We have never planned to operate two carrier task groups. Having two vessels, means one is available 365 day’s a year to fit around refit and maintenance timelines. Something the French can’t do.
But one group with two carriers is very much on the cards.
There was some talk a few years back that the French could use POW thank god for Brexit
Yeah, that was never going to happen. Bet the French wish they did have a QE class though.
Their all crying over their spilt pernodsthey can just Foche off now
1 Carrier wing only geoff. If necessary, both carriers can deploy if needed.
Since 2010 one in use, one in reserve, or on other tasks.
And never mind F35s, Merlin shortage is even more critical.
It’s the future UAVs that I hope will enable 2 air wings if needed.
Thanks for info Daniele. Pissing with rain here!
Well ZM158 (which is the 24th F35B airframe for the RAF/RN) had its first flight on the 2nd September so that makes three of the 2021 tranche of 6 aircraft now complete, the UK aircraft appear to be coming off the production line approximately once every month since the summer so the order looks to be on track. I would assume they would be ferried over to Marham sometime in the next couple of months, really depends on whether the RAF want to ferry the whole group in one go or bring them over in a couple of flights as they need a dedicated A330 Voyager tasked to do the refueling duties for the whole Atlantic crossing.
the 2020 batch came over quite late – December I think and it looks like MoD batched them up to fly over together. I suspect this year it will be the same
AL, It had a test flight on 13th too and there was a 2nd with RAF roundel holding short the runway in the background couldn’t see its tail or airframe number . I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a pic of 023 (assume ZM157) & 024(ZM158) on Instagram so we might have a batch of 3 to come over soon.
By my fag pack maths assuming they stopover at Gander, 3 f35s to 1 A330 leaves multiple diversion options for everybody on the ferry over, 4 f35s limits diversions to Greenland or Ireland only.
Thanks AL-nice to know we are still on track albeit slowly
Great! Does the POW now have the “Bedford Array” and will be doing further ship borne rolling landings? Perhaps in the US with the “orange wired” test aircraft later in the autumn? Be good to see that as standard operating procedure.
Good to see, but we can only realistically support one battle group. Only one country is capable of multiple groups. We need more escorts and support ships.
Which is why more have been ordered?
And even more are planned?
Essentially the order rate is now constrained by UK shipbuilding capacity.
T32 **might** be with us faster than you you think if the first T31 is on time/budget and accepted. My **guess** is that successful delivery of T31 #1 is really the main gate for T32.
I hope that the T31 build dates do not “slip”. Steel is due to be cut from “September 2021”. Watching that space.
Which is why T31 is being built at a commercially sensible speed Earhart than the gentle amble that MOD mandated T26 is built at.
Another good reason why the Type 32 should be a tweaked Type 31.
Type 31 should all be in service by 2030, which is pretty quick
Agreed.
Hence my comments about built to commercial pace.
Key is acceptance of #1 so that MOD knows that T32 is less of a risk.
Imagine if T31 went off course and F32 had been committed to …..?
Type 31s are only good enough to escort commercial vessels in the Persian Gulf (and even then they’re horribly vulnerable to midget subs). They’d be pointless as part of a carrier group. As for the Type 32 I don’t know what the point of it is at all. What IS its role?
As for our existing ships, they’re all woefully under-armed and under-defended. That goes for the Type 23s, Type 45s, the QE and PoW and the RFA support ships. The only survivable vessels we have are the Astutes, but we don’t have enough of them.
Plus if a carrier group is staying out of the range of DF-26 or Kinzhal, then the F-35Bs don’t even have the range to reach land. A RN carrier group is totally pointless against Russia or China.
As we don’t know what a T32 looks like it is hard to speculate on its role.
I disagree that a T31 is pointless. For starters it is a good big platform with massive upgrade potential. It has excellent AAW and small craft defences . The weapons fit for T31 has not been announced officially. Given that up arming things is now no longer for fantasy fleetest it is not too big a leap to suggest that a few extra things might be bolted on before it enters service.
I wish Babcock best of luck with the build. If it get built to budget Ann’s roughly to time I can see a steady drum beat of orders and surface fleet expansion will be a thing.
“As we don’t know what a T32 looks like it is hard to speculate on its role.”
So why are we going to build a ship that doesn’t have a well-defined role? That makes no sense at all.
“I disagree that a T31 is pointless.”
Not exactly what I wrote, re-read my comment.
“For starters it is a good big platform with massive upgrade potential.”
The Type 31 will certainly be large, but the RN has a long history of FFBNW. It could be upgraded, but will it be? Only time will tell.
But even if it IS upgraded, what will it be upgraded with? As I said the Type 31 will be ridiculously vulnerable to subs. It also won’t carry many CAMMs, won’t have anti-ship missiles and won’t have land-attack missiles. It doesn’t look like a particularly survivable vessel to me.
“It has excellent AAW and small craft defences.”
Excellent AAW defences? The last I checked it will only have 12 CAMMs. I wouldn’t call that excellent.
As for defences against fast attack craft, yes it’s well defended against those, but that’s its focus after all, since it’ll probably operate in the Persian Gulf defending commercial vessels. That said, I’d fit DS30Ms and LMMs too,
“If it get built to budget Ann’s roughly to time I can see a steady drum beat of orders…”
Ann’s?
Who would buy Type 31s? Who would have a need for such vessels? They’re ridiculously expensive for the limited capability they provide.
“So why are we going to build a ship that doesn’t have a well-defined role? That makes no sense at all.”
Its role will be very well defined before it is ordered.
“But even if it IS upgraded, what will it be upgraded with? As I said the Type 31 will be ridiculously vulnerable to subs. It also won’t carry many CAMMs, won’t have anti-ship missiles and won’t have land-attack missiles. It doesn’t look like a particularly survivable vessel to me.”
Lets see what weapons fit is announced!
“Excellent AAW defences? The last I checked it will only have 12 CAMMs. I wouldn’t call that excellent.”
That is an assumption based on some old renders. The number of CAMM, or anything else, has not be announced yet.
“As for defences against fast attack craft, yes it’s well defended against those, but that’s its focus after all, since it’ll probably operate in the Persian Gulf defending commercial vessels. That said, I’d fit DS30Ms and LMMs too”
It has 40mm on the same mounts – if you look at the manufacturers site the 20/30/40mm can all go on the same mounts.
“If it get built to budget Ann’s roughly to time I can see a steady drum beat of orders…”
“Ann’s?”
And – bloody autocorrect.
Who would buy Type 31s? Who would have a need for such vessels? They’re ridiculously expensive for the limited capability they provide.
Big survivable hulls are inherently quite expensive. I’d rather be on a big survivable hull than on a tin can particularly as it will have state of the art things that work. The purpose of T31 is to couple hull production from weapons system production. The less from T45 was that the cost overruns on Sampson reduced the Destroyer fleet size: the budget was not cut it was just fitted into.
SB: Its role will be very well defined before it is ordered.
Since the Type 32 was announed I’ve heard very little about its intended role. I read one article that said it might be a mothership for drones, but I’ve not read anything concrete since then.
HJ: But even if it IS upgraded, what will it be upgraded with? As I said the Type 31 will be ridiculously vulnerable to subs. It also won’t carry many CAMMs, won’t have anti-ship missiles and won’t have land-attack missiles. It doesn’t look like a particularly survivable vessel to me.
SB: Lets see what weapons fit is announced!
Steel for the first Type 31 has now been cut. We should know by this stage what the final weapons fit will be.
Imo it should have 24 CAMMs minimum, and the NSM for anti-ship and land attack capability. Dealing with subs is much harder, especially in a congested waterway like the Persian Gulf where both passive and active sonar would probably be next to useless. Underwater LIDAR might be a solution to detect subs though.
And 5 Type 31s will mean that probably only 1 or 2 will be available at any one time, which isn’t enough by any means to escort all the commercial vessels passing through the Persian Gulf, which is probably where the Type 31 will operate most. A larger number of smaller cheaper vessels would have made more sense.
HJ: Excellent AAW defences? The last I checked it will only have 12 CAMMs. I wouldn’t call that excellent.
SB: That is an assumption based on some old renders. The number of CAMM, or anything else, has not be announced yet.
So why did you write then that “It has excellent AAW … defences”?
HJ: As for defences against fast attack craft, yes it’s well defended against those, but that’s its focus after all, since it’ll probably operate in the Persian Gulf defending commercial vessels. That said, I’d fit DS30Ms and LMMs too
SB: It has 40mm on the same mounts – if you look at the manufacturers site the 20/30/40mm can all go on the same mounts.
No I meant fitting DS30Ms and LMMs in addition to the BAE 40mm guns. You can never have enough ordnance if having to deal with a swarm attack of fast attack craft. A modern CIWS with a high rate of fire wouldn’t go amiss either.
HJ: Who would buy Type 31s? Who would have a need for such vessels? They’re ridiculously expensive for the limited capability they provide.
SB: Big survivable hulls are inherently quite expensive.
But I dispute how survivable the Type 31 will be. The Type 31 is based on the Danish Iver Huitfeldt-class frigate, which costs roughly the same and is extremely well armed.
SB: I’d rather be on a big survivable hull than on a tin can particularly as it will have state of the art things that work.
Again, the Type 31 won’t be particularly survivable if it doesn’t have a decent number of CAMMs, no anti-ship or land attack missiles and no way to detect and take out subs.
SB: The purpose of T31 is to couple hull production from weapons system production.
Do you mean “de-couple”? And if you do, can you clarify what you mean by that, because I don’t understand what you mean.
SB: The less from T45 was that the cost overruns on Sampson reduced the Destroyer fleet size
The less? Do you mean “the lesson”?
Do you have a source backing up this claim of yours?
And the T45 is irrelevant to the T31 anyway.
And new engines to support Block 4 it seems which is due to be released in 2026/7 according to the last report I read.
“Lt. Gen. Eric Fick, the Pentagon’s F-35 program executive, has previously acknowledged that the F-35 engine will likely need increased power and thermal management to accommodate Block 4 technologies.”
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2021/08/12/the-pentagon-is-exploring-its-options-for-a-more-efficient-and-powerful-f-35-engine/
I was reading something yesterday that only the a and c variants are getting the new engines the b’s are only getting block4 software update
Yes, I see. This link provides more information on the subject.
Jennifer Latka, Pratt & Whitney’s vice president for the F135 engine program, said the AETP technology is not compatible with the Marine Corps’ F-35B.
That would necessitate two different alternative engines for F-35.
The whole effort could add up to $40 billion over the 50-year life of the program, she said in an interview with Air Force Magazine..
https://www.airforcemag.com/pratt-pushes-alternative-to-new-adaptive-engine-for-f-35/
Thankyou for the link
You’re welcome!
This link carries a little bit more information on the subject.
“Tweedie said the plan was always to develop an engine that could be applied to the F-35 at midlife, and to other, future aircraft, but not as a retrofit to the F-15, F-16, or F-22.
The AETP engines were “optimized to the F-35 … from the beginning,” he said.”
https://www.airforcemag.com/ge-new-engine-for-f-35-possible-by-2027-not-stovl-version/
It is really nice to have some posts connected, by links, to public domain authoritative information.
Thanks again.
Welcome 😜
There’s a significant amount of risk that comes with brand-new technology, and that would require a … tremendous amount of validation to be done,” Latka said. “We’re saying, the AETP is not the right fit for the F-35.”
AETP is not designed for F35. And is not the engine upgrade they are talking about for block 4. Any engine upgrade will be for all 3 variants of the F35. AETP is for 6th gen potentially. The current F135 has considerable growth potential, just like EJ200 for Typhoon does.
I’ll just keep quiet, thanks
😄 Fill your boots pal. These articles can have some misleading opening statements. Only when you read the whole thing, you get what they are really talking about.
And pilots aren’t exactly 10 a penny either
What I meant was we can’t depend on USMCs pilots allthe time ,how long does it take to train up a pilot for for the F35s and what’s the ratio
When will 809 squadron be getting their F-35Bs. Does anyone know.
it was meant to be 2023 but has slipped by one or two years i think
So we could in theory, have the pilots ready and waiting by 2023
Pilots yes but planes no. May have also chosen to wait for block 4 too
So at this rate the F35’s will have been upgraded with new software ? And that would mean ùpping the anti for the pilots ,so at this present time we have more pilots than planes meaning the Airframe is being used more often ? To keep the pilots sharp
2022 earliest
No but they do need someone elses aircraft carrier to make an effective carrier force. I think we should be the happier of the two.
They operate 1 carrier, that isn’t very reliable. And have 44 Rafale M’s in service. Our carrier force has a much brighter future.
NO carrier groups are any use against Russia or China if they’re staying out of the range of DF-26 and Kinzhal. NO carrier aircraft have sufficient range. That includes the F-35B, F-35C, Super Hornet and Rafale M.
No, because their Rafale are already in service.
The RN is rebuilding fixed wing aviation capability and as an interim measure and in agreement with a close ally their planes fly with ours.
Give a few years and the assets aboard can be all UK if the situation demands it.