British and Finnish jets have been flying together over Finland.

The aim of the training is to “strengthen shared security in the Baltic and High North”, say NATO.

The Barents Observer says here that it was last December that Finland announced it had chosen to buy 64 of the F-35 to replace the current fleet of F/A-18 Hornets. The first F-35s will arrive at Rovaniemi in 2026 and all 64, including those to be based further south in Finland, will be in operation by 2030.

With Finland’s decision to join NATO, the cross-border strength of the Alliance’s fleet of F-35s in northernmost Europe will be significant.

Recently, the Royal Air Force confirmed plans to purchase 74 F-35B jets adding that it is “possible” the UK may eventually have a fleet of 138 F-35s. The specific number was revealed by Air Marshal Knighton during a Defence Select Committee meeting:

“I have said this to the Public Accounts Committee, and I will set it out for Committee members here. We have on contract to deliver 48 F-35B aircraft. As part of our planning assumption in the IR and SR that we have just been through, we have assumed an increase of a further 26 F-35B aircraft, which would take the total fleet to 74.

We have said that the decision about further purchase, beyond that 74, will be taken in the middle of the decade, in the context of what we decide to do on our Future Combat Air System programme. It is perfectly plausible to imagine a situation in which we could have the fleet of 138 F-35s that we originally described back in the early 2000s.”

Knighton added:

“We are in the process of negotiating that additional purchase beyond the 48 with the Joint Program Office and with Lockheed Martin. The Secretary of State has been very clear that the final commitment that we make to those aircraft will be dependent on the Joint Program Office and Lockheed Martin demonstrating improvements in cost associated with support and the integration of UK weapons. But we have set aside the budget for that increase and for the additional infrastructure, support costs and people associated with it.”

You can read more here.

George Allison
George Allison
George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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72 COMMENTS

  1. So not sure if that has been indicated before but there is some attempt to put pressure on LM to progress British Weapon fit through the dangling of greater or faster ordering of the type. Quite right too, we know there is a tendency by US companies to do everything they can to pressure the use of US weapons even when more flexibility might actually improve their products appeal to buyers. A politically motivated closed shop I presume that extends control as well as profit.

    • After announcing the possibility of replacing their ageing fleet of 600+ F-16s with the F-35, I wonder if the F-36 Kingsnake programme has moved forward after reading this? Interesting times ahead!

      USAF chief bullish on digital design solutions for B-21, Sentinel programmes23 JUNE 2022

      “US Air Force (USAF) chief of staff General Charles Brown said on 22 June that he would like to see a collaborative and digital approach continue across the air force following positive results on its use with the Northrop Grumman B-21 Raider bomber and LGM-35A Sentinel next-generation intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM).”

      https://www.janes.com/defence-news/air-platforms/latest/usaf-chief-bullish-on-digital-design-solutions-for-b-21-sentinel-programmes

      “The F-35 has won over other candidates to replace the F-16, but the F-35’s price is too expensive and is inferior to the F-16 in some features. Therefore, the F-35 can hardly replace the entire F-16 in a short time.

      The average service life of 783 F-16C fighters, currently in service in the US Air Force is 28.7 years, so the F-16Cs are nearing the end of their service life. This makes a new fighter jet’s 20-year development cycle impossible. Instead, experts want to quickly design, define the specifications of a new fighter within a year, and relies on simpler construction techniques to quickly begin mass production.”

      https://world-defense.com/threads/f36-kingsnake-possible-replacement-of-f16s.8273/

      • There is no way the USAF is going to even entertain some magazine editor’s fanciful projections like the so-called F-36. (F-36 may have already been used anyway by the USAF).
        Back to reality. the US Air Force has a funding problem. General Brown, the Chief of Staff, has iterated an official USAF policy of 4+1 when it comes to its future fighter force. – F-35, A-10, NGAD, F-16, and F-15EX. For some reason he left out the F-22. The USAF is struggling with the right mix under severe budget limitations. No decision has been made to replace the F-16s with F-35s. Congress is not happy but that doesn’t matter much because it’s being replaced by a Republican Congress come January. And it will have its own views.
        My own opinion is that there is no way the USAF will take on another clean sheet or hybrid fighter design at this time.

        • We will have to wait and see what happens with congress elections.
          It’s funny it doesn’t matter how big the budgets are it’s never enough

          • It is always spent to the hilt and then some.

            I do wish people would realise how incredible the UK’s defence capability was for how little is spent.

            The issue is that sheer mass created from older generations of kits is sacrificed in order to have the best of the best stuff at the leading edge.

            But there is also more rigorous financial analysis in the UK than other countries.

            Seen through a 2022 lease, something that does have to be addresses is the costs to the MOD of keeping war stocks or items in storage. This is what leads to the rapid disposals and scrapping of assets and why we have no rotten row any more.

            I know Sir Humphrey has a view on why there should not be a rotten row but I rather disagree and think that the T22’s should have been kept and the reserves rearranged to man them. OK there was no budget for anything sensible in 2010 but the drivers for a lot of these decisions need to be looked at.

        • Completely agree.

          As for why he omitted the F22… well NGAD is meant to eventually replace it, although there are planned enhancements for the F22 into the early 2030’s.

    • Is it politically motivated or is it motivated by simple market economics of most of the jets are US and most of the others such as AUS & JPN use all US systems.

      Look at it another way. Make all the early blocks 1,2 & 3 US weapons only, in the main. All customers will then have stocks of US weapons and be trained in them so moving over to other weapons is going to be a real drag.

      Sure then by the time it gets to Block4 then open up the integrations to the holdouts.

      You can only please most of the customers most of the time. To paraphrase a great line.

      I agree there will be an element of not wanting to encourage the European weapons ecosystem too much as that is commercially self defeating and it isn’t as if LM is going to struggle for F35 orders any time soon.

      There is also an element of this approach is suicidal as it drives the production rates down and the costs up as the earlier blocks are not in such high demand.

    • The main issue is that to hang a new weapon on the F35s you need access to its onboard systems. and its defence systems. only have to look at what happened when Turkey was going to have a system that could compromise that Stealth tech.

  2. Is there a reasonably realistic scenario where Typhoons would be a better choice than F35s for the UK? What if the latter had the same weapon fit as the former (e.g. meteor)?

    • Two different beasts. Typhoon is faster and more suited as an interceptor. F35B has a general role but obviously has that stealth ability as a first strike aircraft, albeit without the payload of Typhoon. Both will have meteor once the F35B block IV upgrades happen.

    • There are many factors. The UK except for a Sky Sabre system and some SHORAD lacks in depth air defence.
      Whilst Typhoon could shoot down cruise missiles. If we assume a reinvigorated, Chinese armed Russia was one day the “Peer opponent” are airbases going to survive the supersonic and hypersonic missile bombardment?
      The USMC is practicing deploying from austere and separated locations in its build up vs China.
      In that sense I think F35B would be the better choice afterall. Rough airstrips and hot rearming and refuelling.
      If we are just aiming to fight insurgents in the middle east then Typhoon alone could do the job.
      To survive modern SAM threats though the RAF would need a sead boost, along with EW tricks. Radar 2 would do some of that but F35 undoubtedly offers better value. Both would cone on at 100m ish

      • Can’t hide but there are plenty of airfields in this country that could be used and a pretty massive motorway network that could be used if shit really went up. Dispersal could work but if the UK mainland is being attacked I’m guessing it’s game over already

    • Interesting question – both Aircraft are very capable in their own right,the RAF has enough experience in both types now to definitively know the answer,but due to obvious OPSEC protocols we in the civilian world will not likely know,but i would guess any Pilot given the choice would take the F35b.

    • Typhoon is a different Breed from the F35s, F35 Sensor suite alone makes the Typhoon a better Platform. Typhoon not a Carrier Bourne Aircraft, BAEs killed that with their design. and if look at the typhoon to F35s ration within the RAF its about 3 to 1.

      • Curious how the F35 sensor suite makes the Typhoon a better platform, are you
        suggesting the suite on the F35 is inferior or do you mean when working in Tandem with the Typhoon.?.

        • Both working in Tandem compliment each other. The F-35 can provide a better sensor suite to Typhoons. The Typhoons provide a better weapons carriage.
          A couple of stealthy F35s could be ahead of a couple of Typhoons and provide targeting information for BVR missiles on the Typhoons. Similarly a couple of stealthy F-35s could fly ahead of a pack of “less stealthy” F35s or Typhoons with underwing munitions and provide them with targeting information for their long range stand off weapons.
          Our “loyal wingmen” currently are other manned aircraft.
          Also. If your leading F35s are detected by a squadron of Migs and you are worried about their dogfight capabilities, they turn, and get “the hell out of Dodge” making as much radar signature as possible and lead them into your Typhoon buddies. Who are waiting for them, outside of their radar detection range, with real time targeting information from your retreating lead F35s.

  3. Off-topic but excellent news nonetheless!

    Turkey’s Baykar will devote all its capacities to meet the needs of the Ukrainian armed forces, Ukrainian Defence Minister Oleksiy Reznikov said on 28 June.
    Reznikov said that having received 50 Bayraktar TB2 unmanned combat aerial vehicles (UCAVs) from Baykar since Russia’s invasion in late February, the Turkish company is to devote its energies to fulfiling Ukraine’s requirement for “dozens more” of the aircraft.

    The defence minister’s comment came a day after Baykar said it was to donate a further three Bayraktars to Ukraine that had been crow funded, in addition to a Bayraktar that Lithuania had acquired on Ukraine’s behalf.

    At the same time, Reznikov said that Ukraine and Turkey are continuing work to build a joint Baykar plant in Ukraine to locally build the UCAVs, an agreement for which was signed before the Russian invasion. “These are plans for the mid-term, [but for now] it is about ordering dozens more UAVs,” he said, adding that a new batch of Bayraktars is expected to be received in mid-July.

    https://www.janes.com/defence-news/air-platforms/latest/ukraine-conflict-baykar-to-commit-entire-bayraktar-production-to-ukraine

    • Ive heard that a number of MPs have started visiting a number of Blue Oyster salad bars looking for men to train up , sorry that was somewhat sexist of me, I should have also included women in that statement:

    • Agree about the nhs, mainly due to fact I object to paying thousands a year of tax on health care that falls somewhere between non existent and inept. Let me have my money to invest in private cover instead.

      • What if you don’t have the money for private healthcare?
        The USA model is awful. They spend more on health per person than most countries but it doesn’t work out well for most Americans.
        And you honestly think the government would give you the money back! No they would spend it else where and you would have double bills

        • RN from America here, work in home health. I can get anyone great care. Saying the health care system isn’t good is a myth. First off you have to want to receive it or take part in it which some people choose not to do leading to poorer outcomes. I think thats accounts for a lot of the mediocre numbers compared to other countries, plus the fat 2/3 of Americans are overweight, many still smoke, and eat poor diets. Those that want health care I have no difficulty getting it for. For example taking care of elderly lady with insurance. Daughter has no insurance and was having issues, short of breath cough that sort of think. Got her appointment at City Clinic system. Chest x ray showed mass in lung then later confirmed to be cancer. Was then referred to University of Cincinnati Medical Center for care. Soon after was receiving Chemotherapy and Radiation. All with no insurance. I could find anyone this level of care here with or without insurance. Only difference is I would say with insurance you can find it a bit faster. We do have 25 of the 100 hospitals in the world and healthcare is not difficult to get. This rumor I keep hearing about from people overseas drives me nuts. Talk to MDs from foreign countries all the time about this, whats so great about the healthcare in your country or overseas and they say all this nonsense about poor care is complete bullshit. So no, health care does work out for most Americans the statement above is complete ignorance knowing nothing about the subject or ever experiencing Healthcare in America.

      • The principle of mutualising health provision – contributing through tax – is sound. But mutualisation does not necessitate soviet style centralisation and monopoly provision. This is where the NHS goes wrong – too much emphasis on costs and policies and not enough sensitivity to individual needs of both patients and staff. It needs breaking up into English regions and budgetting needs to be done at regional level rather than Trust level – there are too many accountants. Also there needs to be a national standard list of what’s free and what’s payable – valid for all regions. The other issue to be honest is that the UK public is not being taught how to take care of itself – epidemic levels of drinking, over-eating and self harming.

        • You think breaking it up into lower levels will reduce accountants… It really won’t, but will get you even more managers, HR heads, department leads etc.

          • I’m not expert in NHS organisation so it’s just an instinct; it seems to be made up like an archipelago of trusts each making deals with itself and external providers. It’s too fragmented and therefore required too many managers, administrators and accountants

          • Yes if we get rid of all the accountants that is bound to save the NHS billions, who needs financial oversight?
            Same with HR, don’t need them either, the staff can be trusted to manage and pay themselves?
            All we need is Nurses and Doctors; we can F.O the cleaners and the porters and the estates and the security.

            If your not an expert, it helps if you know when to keep opinion’s to yourself else you just make yourself look stupid.

            The biggest problems with the NHS is it is politicised and unionised.
            Too many people who have little to no experience of it are responsible for its decision making or influence its decision making too much, and there is a complete lack of reality in clinical staffs wage demands the higher up the chain you go.

            Doctors threatening to go on strike for a 30% wage increase, to make up for the lost millions in wages over the last decade being a prime example (according to the BMA this week). Are Doctors struggling to put food on the table? or is it just a case of manipulating the situation to get a bigger house?

            There’s queues round the door for ED treatment but all the money gets absorbed by the wage demands, and its all greed from the top transmitted down.

            So no, its not the accountants and managers that are the cause of the NHS problems as I see it, its the upper classes moving taxpayers money into their own pockets that’s the problem.

          • What a rant! Happy to debate, perhaps when you have got your medication right 🙂
            Take it easy.

      • Yeah right upto the point you have Cancer and you cover doesn’t go up that High. £120b per year is the NHS budget. it’s like the self-employed who only earnt 50p a year for decades and then covid hit. and their claims were based on their Tax Returns.

        Better option would be to stop all ex MOD pensions. think of all that money.

        • No different to the cancer treatment a close relative of mine is receiving from the nhs. If you ever get diagnosed find a quick way to top yourself. It would be more humane than exposing yourself to nhs treatment.

          • If you ever get diagnosed find a quick way to top yourself.

            Is that what you have advised your “close relative” to do?

          • My late wife’s cancer treatment would have been identical on the NHS than her private care. Private meant she had a nice lunch, saw the same nurses and could go to a very local hospital. Some of the tests were quicker too The oncology, consultants and chemo is identical. Blame the cancer not the NHS

          • The cancer was treatable, no spread,
            small, perfect scenario to be in. Problem is the nhs is an inept bureaucratic shower of shit that over the course of 6 months did sweet feck all but dither around doing nothing to treat it while it grew. And god forbid a doctor should actually see a patient, wouldn’t want to inconvenience the poor dears by expecting that. Incompetent from top to bottom.

    • Oh no I hope not. I wonder how many people would want to pay £10k per year in premiums and then the first £5k per person per year before their discounted healthcare kicked in. It’s horrendous and would deny any decent healthcare to a large part of the population

    • No, just look at the US for what private healthcare does.

      It would make the country weaker as whole, which is itself a security risk, and that’s before you even get into the mortality of it.

  6. Putin’s Baldrick moment? JohninMK will explain later how the ‘special operation to galvanise the laggard Europeans into taking defence very seriously’ is actually a ‘cunning plan’.

  7. Going a little off topic, Ive just read an article on AESA radars and with it ending on the Hensoldt PrecISR (Link takes you to a YT vid) Out to those who know a lot more than I, how would this work on the carriers?

    • I’ve always wondered this.

      If this is the largest ship ever built for the Royal Navy then we were flying piston engined aircraft off much smaller carriers in the past – without steam catapults.

      “Winkle” Brown would have flown one of these off and onto a deck smaller than the current QE, if asked.

      There used to be an airshow act that landed an aircraft on a moving car roof.

      A decent STOL and balls of steel and away you go.

      • I wonder if instead of having a fully qualified fast jet pilot, could you use a cheaper quicker training just for a propeller plane.
        Then maybe the answer is to make it unmanned.
        Something will be needed with high altitude, endurance for AEW after crows nest. If it is mostly staying within the type 45 defence bubble then its not as vulnerable. Stick a couple of ASRAAMs on it just in case.
        Something most likely different to those specs maybe needed for AAR.
        Lots of developments coming along in next 10 years I think.

        • Airbus are currently developing the Zephyr which has changed very much from the original type and design and is due to test is latest model this year.

  8. Considering that we bought these F-35 B variants specifically for the new Carriers, its rather noticible that they seem to spend 90% of their time going no where near them.

    It would have been so much better to go with a CATOBAR carriers and the longer legged, larger payload C variants, given how they’re being put to use. I’m sure the RAF think the same as well.

    • It’s been discussed many times why the QE class with F35B is the perfect combination for us. F35B carries more fuel than a Typhoon or a Tornado, the range issue has been blown out of all proportions. The advantage of VSTOL carrier’s is the aircraft don’t need to spend as much time on board as the traning requirements for keeping the pilots deck qualified is far less demanding compared to catapults.

    • Basic level training would only be on land, before pilots are fully integrated and sufficiently trained in the aircraft they cant go near a carrier.

      EMALS was never going to happen, if it had we would barely be able to use the carriers at all as the US are still having issues with the tech, plus the additional cost of it. Great idea to go with a tech that would have left us without anything we could use.

      Other than the US which carrier based aircraft have a greater range exactly? The French carries less fuel, goodness knows what the chinese ones are capable of and the Russians dont even have a carrier anymore.

    • There is a view held by many here that an aircraft carrier without aircraft is quite normal. All sorts of excuses are used to pretend that nothing is wrong. The reason the F35 does not find itself on a flight deck is that we only have 12/15 operational aircraft with a training schedule to match.
      Your quite right to question the type of carrier and aircraft we should have had. We actually started with the ski jump, then stopped to consider cats and traps which were found to too expensive (?) so back to the ski jump. This effectively ruled out the F35C and/or any other carrier aircraft.
      The C version has a far better combat radius of 675 miles against the B’s 500 miles. Ironically, the B carries more fuel but it’s because of the STOVL configuration. The C also carries a bigger payload inboard, allowing it a potentially longer stealth period in flight and a better weapon load overall.
      The RAF has been reported a number of times on preferring the F35A. In passing it’s interesting to note that the Typhoon is faster, has a higher service ceiling, an 875 mile combat and a more sophisticated weapon load

    • Just give up. It’s not happening.

      And the reason or F-35s see so likely carrier time is that we don’t have enough yet.

  10. Seems reasonable. We’ll buy more so long as you bring the cost down and allow integration with our weapons

  11. Interesting. Sixty four ordered, all for their air force of course, all to be in service by 2030. We have twenty three with twenty four more by 2025/2026 with no confirmed operational date for them all and we are planning, but haven’t ordered another twenty six with 2030/2035 in mind. The first two squadrons of eight will be operational by 2024/2025. So sixteen aircraft to be shred between two carriers and the RAF by around 2025. WOW! Only seven years since Number One.

    • Have they ordered F35B variant, ah no they have ordered the A variant which has the largest production base.

      Are they involved with the R&D of the aircraft? Ah no they can just start ordering from an existing manufacturing base and not been involved in the early stages of development.

      Do they have a requirement to integrate Finish weapons system and require bespoke software to be coded? Ah thought not.

      Compare apples to apples and stop jumping on stupid ill informed media headlines.

      • I’m not disappointed. I knew someone would come up up with a shoal of red Herrings and a reason for us not doing anything. Well done James. As for stupid (interesting word in the circumstances) every single FACT in my post is varifiable. Maybe you should read about it sometime.

        • I didnt say it wasnt verified did I? I simply pointed out why the facts you stated are the case for the order placed by Finland and completely irrelevant for the UK procurement plan.

          My points stand.

          • “compare apples to apples and stop jumping on stupid ill informed media headline” That’s your idea of a non argumentative response is it? Very odd

  12. I don’t understand if LM can give late ordering countries dates for their in service dates foe f35 and we have been from start can only supply with 1 or 2 every couple of years????

    • They have ordered a different aircraft to what we have.

      We also dont want a large fleet of aircraft that then need more money spending on them to be upgraded in a few years, its really not difficult to understand.

      We also dont have enough pilots to fly them so why have a large fleet of unused aircraft parked up?

  13. “integration of UK weapons”
    These days both weapons and aircraft tend to be software based. We can update our own missile software to whatever we want, for instance how it recognises which platform it has been plugged into, how it should identify itself to that platform and what platform API it should be using to send and request data on that platform.
    I suspect the delays in integrating some of our weapon’s has something to do with reports of delays in the development of the F-35’s own software capabilities and so I’m assuming it is currently unable to supply or accept some of our weapons data requirements.
    There is no point in loading up a expensive platform with expensive smart weapons only to have to fire them in a relative dumb mode.
    As with other customers we are right to put pressure on LM to deliver promised capabilities in both a timely and certified way.

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