British warship downs drone sent to attack it

If we can’t raise a crew for one Ass Toot then we might as well hoist a white flag.

Good afternoon George, in short, Tomahawk land attack and additional Mk 41 VLS is the short answer to the problem. Tried and tested!

“The Tomahawk Land Attack Missile (TLAM) is a long range cruise missile used for deep land attack warfare, launched from U. S. Navy surface ships and U.S. Navy and United Kingdom Royal Navy submarines.

The Tomahawk Block III Conventional variant (TLAM-C) contains a 1,000-lb class blast/fragmentary unitary warhead while the Submunition variant (TLAM-D) includes a submunitions dispenser with combined effect bomblets.

The Tomahawk Block IV (Tactical Tomahawk, TLAM-E), conventional variant, which entered the Fleet in 2004, adds the capability to reprogram the missile while in-flight via two-way satellite communications to strike any of 15 pre-programmed alternate targets or redirect the missile to any Global Positioning System (GPS) target coordinates.

The Block IV missile is capable of loitering over a target area in order to respond to emerging targets or, with its on-board camera, provide battle damage information to warfighting commanders. Tomahawk Block IV is currently in Full Rate Production (FRP).
 
The latest variant, Block V Tomahawk missiles, feature a NAV/COMMs upgrade that maintains the capability for In-Flight Target Updates and Improved Navigation. Future Block V capabilities will add to the NAV/COMMs upgrade and include the Maritime Strike Tomahawk (MST) variant, designated as Block Va; and the Joint Multiple Effects Warhead System (JMEWS), designated as Block Vb.
Tomahawk provides on-scene commander with the flexibility to attack long-range fixed targets or support Special Operations Forces with a lethal, responsive, precision weapon system and as such has become the weapon of choice for the U.S. Department of Defense.

Tomahawk cruise missiles are designed to fly at extremely low altitudes at high subsonic speeds, and are piloted over an evasive route by several mission tailored guidance systems. The first operational use was in Operation Desert Storm, 1991, with immense success. Since January 1991, more than 2,300 Tomahawks have been fired in combat operations, including in during Operation Odyssey Dawn in Libya and during Operation Inherent Resolve in Syria.

Specifications
Primary Function: Long-range subsonic cruise missile for striking high value or heavily defended land targets.
Contractor: Raytheon Missile Systems Company, Tucson, AZ
Date Deployed: Block II TLAM-A IOC – 1984
Block III – IOC 1993
Block IV – IOC 2004
Unit Cost: Approximately $1.09M (FY16$)
Propulsion: Block II/III TLAM-A, C & D – Williams International F107 cruise turbo-fan engine; ARC/CSD solid-fuel booster
-Block IV TLAM-E – Williams International F415 cruise turbo-fan engine; ARC MK 135 Rocket Motor Assembly
Length: 20.3 feet
Diameter: 21 inches
Wingspan: 8 feet 6 inches
Weight: 3,330 lbs. with rocket motor

Any acquisition of the MST for countries such as the UK would add a useful anti-surface warfare system to the inventory, particularly as the development of next generation anti-ship missiles, such as the Future Cruise/Anti-Ship Weapon (FC-ASW), with the UK and France, are someway off being fielded.

With the Block V, and through it the Va and Vb variants, likely to remain in service for more than a decade and even up to the 2040s, this would provide vital development time for countries seeking next-generation ASW systems.”

“Put down the gun & move away! I’ve got FFBNW & I’m not afraid to gap it!”

George wrote:
“”Read an interesting article in Telegraph about the Royal Navy not having the fire power to attack the Houthi on the ground as a lack of distance for the Type 45 Destroyer’s missiles. “”

The Type 45 with Air defence in mind wasn’t designed with ground attack in mind, that said 4 of them were retrofitted with the Harpoon, (I do believe most have had them removed) so its main anti ground capability is its main gun or anything mounted on its helicopter. It’s a deficit which has been known for a long time and excused by many by playing the dedicated to defending the carrier angle. However, the Navy has to wake up to the fact that single use ships especially when the Navy has been cut to the bone are no longer financially viable. Hopefully somebody at Whitehall will wake up to the above and set about kicking those with the power and means to start looking at giving all our ships that extra offensive ability they sadly lack. It needn’t be expensive either, a deck launched : Spear 3, GMLRS, GLSDB, or even ATACMS (or its replacement) shouldn’t be that hard to fit into place.

Regards striking the Houthi, the left have weaponised (and justified) their acts of terrorism by claiming they are striking a blow for the Palestinians , whilst ignoring completely that the Houthi have over 270K deaths on their hands, that the vast majority of ships targeted and hit have no links to Israel and all we have seen banded about after the US and Uk strikes is bombing a country already bombed into the stone age is simply supporting genocide in Gaza.
 
 
Not one of the Houthi supporters has bothered their arse to look at the puppet master (Iran) which is currently deep in the red regards finances (which explains its lack of open involvement, knowing that if it plays its hand its entire oil industry is at risk. But in using its proxies it avoids that issue and it reaps the extra income as prices for Oil and gas continue to rise.

But not to worry once labour get in, they will ensure military spending is increased in which leave NATO, join up with Russia, Iran and Venezuela and declare war on the Jews. And before people slag me off, have a look at how the left of the political divide openly support all of the above whilst hating everything about the West (Funny how none of them pack their bags and depart to live in their utopias they claim are much better places to live)

HMS Duncan was on station but returned just before Xmas C/W Harpoon Missiles,when she goes back she will have NSM, which while not the perfect solution at least she will have something to fire back with.

The Type-45 were designed to take the MK41 VLS so could have been fitted with Tomahawk cruise missiles. But government cuts meant that they were not fitted, and instead decided a ship with limited anti-ship, no anti-submarine, no ballistic-missile defence and no land attack capability was fine. Idiots!

The Royal Navy, or more relevantly the MoD & Defence Secretary (I doubt the RN actually needs educating) should be learning valuable real world success, shortcoming & cost effectivity lessons from HMS Diamond’s efforts on behalf of the Type 45 fleet in particular, & broader fleet units generally, i.e. regarding a balanced weapons fit within a hull well capable of accommodating necessary enhancements.
That just leaves the Treasury to illustrate any ability – imagination – it’s accountancy mindset may possess to move away from a simplistic in year budget formulae as we rapidly confront mounting security crises.
Regards

Sounds like nonsense to me.

Good evening George, how things can change in a day.

Three US troops killed in drone attack
19:51

“President Biden and Vice President Harris both briefed on the attack.
In a statement just now, the White House said that both President Joe Biden and Vice-President Kamala Harris were briefed by their national security team this Sunday afternoon on the attack.

Also present in the meeting were National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, Secretary of State Antony Blinken, Secretary of Defence Lloyd Austin, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Charles Q Brown, and US ambassador to the UN Linda Thomas Greenfield.”

“Jordan says it is co-operating with the USIn its latest statement, Jordan has condemned the targeting of US personnel near its border with Syria, calling it a “terrorist attack”, according to a report by Reuters.
The country added it was co-operating with the US to secure the border and to fight terrorism.”

The type 45 has no strike missiles period..it’s not they lack range..they don’t exist.

I would be surprised if the issue was raising the crew for deploying a SSN and more about numbers…the last of the trafalgars is due to decommission this year and of the five astute one is tied up pending start of refit…leaving 4

Comparing the price of a cheap drone with that of a million+ quid missile interceptor is a false comparison. The real value is in saving a multi million merchant or warship from damage/destruction & the death or injury of crew. Then there’s the costs of rerouting trade away fron attack areas & increased insurance.

A very expensive sledgehammer to crack a cheap nut!!

For once ( actually not really….. ) I agree fully with you…. in fact i’m probably at about 80% with you on most of your posts….. It’s a shame I sometimes have to check myself when reading your replies…. Time for the UK to wake up and smell the Coffee that’s for sure.

Indeed, I read that some of the AShm launched are based on the Irans fatah 313, it is good to know the interceptions have been successful and Iran is not the missile superpower thatit claims to be.

Actual hot contact focusses minds on things like NSM and Sea Ceptor upgrades.

I’d argue that the announcement of various upgrades to Sea Viper being announced now, as being funded, is no accident.

This moves the dial on the usual conversation about ‘admirals demanding exquisite ships etc’ to ‘we have to deal with this real threat right now’…….

I have to agree, in almost every situation where a western warship has been targeted by sea skimming missiles there has been failures which lead to ships being hit. However here we can see the west two premier air warfare assets Burke and T45 in a literal shooting gallery and nothings getting through to the warships. It’s great training and a real show case that A2AD bubbles are probably no where near as effective as Iran China or Russia think.

Agree, if only we could be reassured that the lessons are learnt. In the meantime equipping the entire fleet with BAE 57MM or Bofors 40mm guns would go a long way to avoid expenditure of million pounds missiles.
Dragonfire is a useful option, as above would be good to hear of the system being ordered in large numbers.

Agreed 👍

Agreed. On your line of reasoning though one disappointment that I have had ever since we started engaging these drones with missiles is that we don’t currently have any ships with Sea Ceptor involved. With Sea Ceptor being a relatively new system it would have been very valuable to see how it performs in real combat situations. I’m assuming that for these sorts of drones targeted directly at the ship Sea Ceptor plus Artisan would be more than adequate for the job.

I guess HMS Diamond will need to be relieved at some point. I wonder if we might see a T23 with Sea Ceptor replace her or will the MoD want another T45 to give Aster 30 ranges for better wide area cover for merchant shipping?

Well yes…. but what did we want them for otherwise ? ….. Personally I think we have missed the whole point of deploying deterrent forces whilst preferring to demonstrate power Projection in pre planned exorcises.. around the World….Am I wrong ?

I prefer sending the message that we have carrier capability but we don’t have to use it to strike an enemy, why run down valuable assets when you can simply hit them from a base where we have constant typhoon availability, job well done from the RAF and everyone involved should be the headline in the press but as usual it prefers to trash the people that protects them. I think I seen something on daily express that mentioned we could have launched the typhoon jets from the QE to perform the strikes, absolutely clueless.

The royal navy won’t send a carrier when a US carrier is there, that makes no sense. The Red Sea does not need two carriers but it may need persistence and one of the Queen Elizabeth’s will certainly deploy at some point if the Houthis persist.

4 Typhoon’s from Cyprus are plenty for now.

We need to remember sending our carriers now is more like doubling up what the US has, very different from the invincible class that added sea harrier for area defence while the Americans did the attack. Also with the effectiveness of the sea viper system the requirement of a sea harrier style defence is reduced.

Our support now comes with typhoons and area defence with the type 45 and is more useful than adding another carrier to protect, it’s not like the sorty intensity suggests the need for another carrier

Agree about cost. The carrier option can be held in reserve unless we need to generate an increased sortie rate that typhoons flying out of Cyprus are not able to match.

Yes, and you could i suppose equally total up the cost of firing a dozen Tomahawk verses the price of fuel and cheap bombs.
What you WOULD get with a carrier is persistence, but we are not at that stage yet.
Would be very good to see Ceptor taking out drones and so on to give (added) confidence to the system.
AA

No, because they are not a state, they are a militant/terrorist group so if Yemen ask us we can do (within the rules of war) whatever we like.

Yes it can be an Act of War.

It is irrelevant if it is a state or not.

No, CAMM is not compatible with Sylver A50. RN could look into getting Starsteak, launch from box type devices? Mind you it’s only ok for short range of 7km objects. Or send out an Albion with a box of CAMM on deck.

On the subject of Time to react…. Typhoon based in Cyprus would I guess take a lot longer than TLAM on a T45 though……. What’s a Kat….. ?

I suggest its fleet time that the big issue, the T45 are spending too much time in port as its is for upgrades and a handful of TLAM on T45 is a marginal capability for us considering all 13 of our new Frigates will now carry it plus 7SSN.

Yup – an ISTAR drone would be more useful.

Then send an NSM to say ‘ Hi not such a good idea’

Or even the drone could deliver the kinetic message.

That said Mk41 is going into T26/31 and the press releases seem to suggest that Sea Ceptor is quad packed in T31.

£20m is chicken feed to generate a capability.

I’d use Mk41 for flexibility. On the basis that it can be converted to a wide range of war shots.

I’d keep NSM canister mounted.

That way there are three systems that can all fire simultaneously without worrying about firing through hot efflux gas plumes etc.

All, Oh so true.

An alternative, is ATACM’s launched from a M270 on deck of an Albion?

Or alternatively look at the USN with ABs. Good at AAW, limited anti surface as a Flight 2/3 as they dont have harpoon but do have a 4 mil a shot SM6…and lets not even consider ASW which they are on par with a T42/T22 for doing.