In 2021, my first-ever article for the UK Defence Journal detailed that the government of the time’s ambition for a “Global Britain” needed the appropriate defence and diplomatic effort behind it to be achievable.

In 2023, I followed this up with an article examining how far the concept had come (the original government paper was created in 2018).

It would be fair to say that a lot has changed in the last year. The UK military is struggling in a major way due to more than a decade of failings in government, the civil service, and the services’ own leaders.


This article is the opinion of the author and not necessarily that of the UK Defence Journal. If you would like to submit your own article on this topic or any other, please see our submission guidelines


The war in Ukraine has intensified, and conflict in the Middle East is underway yet again following the Hamas terrorist attack on Israel on 7th October 2023 (and the subsequent declaration of war by Hezbollah in Lebanon against Israel the following day). The US is gearing up for another presidential election. China continues to grow its military strength while firmly holding Taiwan in its sights, and the UK has had a general election that saw a major power shift.

The Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary are struggling. At the time of writing, none of the UK’s Astute-class hunter-killer submarines is deployed. Four of our six destroyers and four of the remaining nine frigates are temporarily out of action, as are both amphibious assault ships of the Albion-class.

The RFA is seeing more and more of its ships laid up due to a lack of funds, and those few ships that can sail are now lacking crew as the RFA demands better pay from the new government (having watched the NHS and train drivers get above-inflation pay rises in recent months, despite the new Chancellor stating there is a £20bn black hole in the UK’s finances).

The Army is not much better off. Now at its smallest size since the 1800s with just 73,000 full time personnel, tough choices have to be made about equipping troops and deployments overseas.

The Challenger 2 main battle tank will be upgraded to Challenger 3 variant, however there will only be 148 of them, compared with more than 440 of the Challenger 2 being produced. New equipment is limited unless you’re in the Army Air Corps, where the AH-64E “Apache Guardian III” has now entered service, replacing the WAH-64D models that have served so well. Ajax and Boxer will slowly start appearing in the coming years, with the full 1,100+ vehicles of the types due to be in service by 2032 (under current plans).

The RAF will no doubt be watching the SDR with concern. The MoD remains committed to the initial 48 F-35Bs, with a second batch of jets being discussed since 2022 for delivery by 2033. C-130 is now gone completely, and there is no firm commitment to buying more A400M Atlas transports yet.

The E-7A Wedgetails (all 3 of them) are still up to 2 years away, and the Typhoon fleet is slowly shrinking as older airframes are used for parts to keep newer jets flying. Project Tempest’s (now known as GCAP) future appears uncertain, too, although it is still hoped a prototype will fly in 2027, meaning the further order of F-35B may not actually take place or will only occur as a stop-gap measure.

In any case, Chancellor Rachel Reeves has made clear that the government will be making cuts to try and fix the “£20bn black hole” that her team found when they took over the department (whether you believe that claim or not). One would hope that in a time of war in Europe, the MoD would be one of the few departments to survive such cuts, but history has taught me that is unlikely to be the case.

So, what are we likely to lose?

At the current time, the navy’s Type 26 and Type 31 frigate programmes are under construction, and given the Type 26 was already cut from 13 ships to 8, I doubt we’ll see further cuts there.

The Type 31 is also hopefully safe, although the follow-up Type 32 programme could now be further at risk or delayed well into the future as it’s unlikely to be considered a priority by the new government. Likewise, the proposed Type 45 replacement (Type 83 destroyers) are nothing more than an idea on a drawing board in reality, meaning they could also face the axe.

Programmes to replace various auxiliaries and the fleet’s amphibious assault ships are also in question, especially since it appears we can’t even afford to keep the ships we have in service operational, let alone build and maintain a new fleet.

The Army is already alarmingly small in number of personnel. It’s therefore unlikely (but not impossible) that it will be reduced further in size, however, it may have to forfeit equipment or see units reorganised and deployments reduced further, something that will not bode well for NATO (who are keenly watching the upcoming US elections to see if Donald Trump manages to be re-elected (a man who has often been vocally anti-NATO)). The UK is reportedly trying to re-introduce the industrial capacity to build its large-calibre guns. It is also exploring the use of UAVs, following lessons being learnt from the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

The RAF may have to bite the bullet hardest. There has been a lot of talk recently about the possibility of scrapping the Red Arrows aerobatic display team and selling off even more bases. We’re unlikely to see any further orders for Typhoon (unlike in Europe). As I’ve already mentioned, the future of the F-35B fleet remains in question (with some suggestions of an F-35A purchase, a rather odd concept given current circumstances).

Tempest/GCAP may face further delays, with anticipated entry to service currently set for 2035. However, this relies as much on the UK’s internal politics as it is on the two significant collaborators, Japan and Italy. The New Medium Helicopter (NMH) programme could also face the axe, with the competition having gone from 3+ competitors (Airbus, Sikorsky and Leonardo) down to only 1 submitting an entry, and the proposed order dropping from 44 airframes down to as few as 20-25 at the time of writing.

Further, plans to replace C-130s with a possible follow-up order of more A400Ms appear to be nothing more than a dream now, meaning the existing airlift fleet will have to soldier on with its current capacity for the foreseeable future.

Sadly, the lack of concern from most politicians around defence seems limited to Western Europe. Other nations are rapidly trying to expand their military spending in light of growing threats worldwide. Poland, South Korea, Japan and others are increasing defence spending, placing large orders for new equipment, and in many cases, ramping up domestic defence production capabilities, which is something the UK should also be doing, in my opinion.

We may not be able to achieve the pivot to Asia-Pacific. If the cuts are severe, there’s always the risk of going back to a time of “no forces east of Suez”, a historic defence decision that proved catastrophic and ultimately unsustainable. The UK needs a strong military not just to meet our obligations to allies but to defend our interests – something that continues to be of great importance given recent events in the Gulf of Oman with Houthi attacks on international shipping.

Ultimately, we don’t know what the SDR will say, but given the current government’s views on the economy and recent history, the news is unlikely to be suitable for the MoD. “Global Britain” may find itself resigned to the distant future, and we can only hope the butcher’s bill will not leave the nation virtually defenceless.

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Jon, who many of you know as 'Defence Geek', is a leading member of the Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) community. He is the co-host of the OSINT Bunker Podcast which is made in collaboration with the UK Defence Journal and is a Co-Founder of the Military Aviation Tracking Alliance group whose work providing news during the Kabul Airlift reached millions of people.
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Jacko
Jacko (@guest_854805)
24 days ago

Oh dear what a bloody mess we are going to be in!

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah (@guest_854991)
23 days ago
Reply to  Jacko

Going to be? Already are.

Jacko
Jacko (@guest_854996)
23 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

Oops silly me you are of course correct 👍

Mark B
Mark B (@guest_855200)
22 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

For a peacetime military personally I don’t think we are doing too badly.

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah (@guest_855204)
22 days ago
Reply to  Mark B

War doesn’t always give you several years notice!!

Mark B
Mark B (@guest_855213)
22 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

True. Normally it gives you little or no notice. That said you can’t have a wartime army at the ready in peacetime. It is impossible to fund. Any potential adversary would simply wait for you to go bankrupt. Let’s face it Russia can’t beat Ukraine how is it going to beat NATO plus everyone else who might well pile in. Sure it could go nuclear in which case it still loses along with us.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_856036)
20 days ago
Reply to  Mark B

You can and should have a small wartime army ready in peacetime. Massive expansion is of course required for success in a world war or a long duration and very major regional war.

Brian Dee
Brian Dee (@guest_858743)
9 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

It really doesn’t mate. The ridiculous time in which ships are built,planes built etc not to mention battle casualty replacements trained from scratch is frightening. Unfortunately the clowns in charge apparently know better. Straight from the Corbyn let’s negotiate with ISIS. Crap.

Jonno
Jonno (@guest_859688)
7 days ago
Reply to  Brian Dee

With a Government like we have; who needs enemies. The enemy is within, if giving away Sovereignty of the Chagos Archipelago is your benchmark.

Knight7572
Knight7572 (@guest_860074)
5 days ago
Reply to  Jonno

You are clearly an idiot and the way you are talking about the Prime Minster is stupid as you cannot compare him to people like Stalin as he has done nothing to warrant comparisons and you are forgetting that for Diego Garcia was retained until 2113 which means until the USA wants, that lease is never going to end

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_855542)
21 days ago
Reply to  Mark B

In what way, exactly?

George Allison
George Allison (@george-allison)
21 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Hi Graham, have you received a notification for this reply?

George Allison
George Allison (@george-allison)
21 days ago
Reply to  George Allison

Test

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_855864)
21 days ago
Reply to  George Allison

Hi George. No, sadly not. As my emails said, my notifications stopped many weeks ago and I have no idea how to get them back. G

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_859921)
6 days ago
Reply to  George Allison

Hi George. Many weeks on I am still not getting notifications.

Mark B
Mark B (@guest_855865)
21 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Well for the past (nearly) 80 years we have not been in a major war. The UK has not been in direct threat following the cold war until this point yet we still have a considerable force (Carriers, Destroyers, Frigates, F35s, submarines etc. and we are capable of deterring with nuclear weapons) which whilst acting as part of NATO (which is still up and running) can monitor and focus forces along a pretty sizable boarder. We know from the usage of modern weapons in Ukraine that Russia sees our weapons as a direct and effective threat and that Russia is… Read more »

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_856040)
20 days ago
Reply to  Mark B

I would not disagree with most of that except you are rather too content with the availability of the escort force, the attack subs and the RFAs, just to take the Navy. I was coming back to you on your claim that for a peacetime military we are not doing badly. Looking at some of the wars we have fought in….The 1982 Falklands Conflict was ‘a close run thing’. If the Argies had worked out how to properly fuse their bombs we would have lost a lot more ships, perhaps a critical number. If an Exocet had hit one carrier… Read more »

Mark B
Mark B (@guest_856850)
17 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

In many ways Graham I think the escorts are now doing better than expected. I thought many T23s (especially Iron Duke) would never make it into (let alone out the other side) of refit. The T45s are now coming out of PIP with new missiles as well. We have two available at the moment which should expend to four by year end and probably 6 in a couple of years. T26 is motoring along & T31 not far behind. You cannot compare the T42 with the T45s. Diamond has been int the Red Sea single handedly batting away missiles and… Read more »

Cripes
Cripes (@guest_861070)
2 days ago
Reply to  Mark B

Mark, your optimism/complacency seems to focus solely on the navy. The largest threat to Europe and UK comes from Russia, which would undoubtedly be backed by fellow Axis powers in the event of a NATO-Russia conflict. That war would primarily be an air-land one, with air superiority or at least parity the key element and land forces the key deciders on the battlefield. We are now far, far below the absolute minimum air and army contributions expected by NATO. 5 manoeuvre brigades compared to the 16 we had, which itself was a comparative peanut. 6 going 7 fast jet squadrons… Read more »

Val
Val (@guest_860080)
5 days ago
Reply to  Mark B

No, just really very badly.

Steve R
Steve R (@guest_860321)
4 days ago
Reply to  Mark B

The past 2.5 years should show that war eats up a hell of a lot of resources.

The peacetime military is the military we’ll have during a war. We lack the industrial capacity to start churning out Typhoons or tanks at any rate. Even one Typhoon a month would be a massive ask!

Mark B
Mark B (@guest_860325)
4 days ago
Reply to  Steve R

True however Covid gave the world a taste of the medical resources needed in a pandemic. Just as the NHS cannot be on a war footing 24/7 and afford it then the military cannot either. The Soviet Union bankrupted themselves attempting that.

In reality a country at war eventually resorts to what it can build quickly so we could end up churning out spitfires or hurricanes once the typhoons run out or maybe something smaller.

Steve R
Steve R (@guest_860327)
4 days ago
Reply to  Mark B

True, but PPE and vaccines are a lot easier to churn out than Typhoons or Challenger IIs. Sure, we could churn out Spitfires or Hurricanes but they’d do sod all against even semi-modern aircraft. There’d be no point in building planes that wouldn’t stand any chance at all. We need enough forces to last whilst we start pumping out alternatives. Drones, sure, but we’re not going to manage air superiority with drones, and air superiority is key to winning any war, especially if we don’t want it to drag on for years. I’m not saying we need massive forces and… Read more »

Mark B
Mark B (@guest_855196)
22 days ago
Reply to  Jacko

We seem to be jumping the gun a little?

Jacko
Jacko (@guest_855237)
22 days ago
Reply to  Mark B

Believe me I will happily be proven wrong! However when we see what the Army has lost and are losing even before the SDR I won’t hold my breath.

Mark B
Mark B (@guest_855386)
22 days ago
Reply to  Jacko

Well firstly we are assuming that the SDR will make cuts. In reality it is a political tool to shift policy (in either direction) but still claim the credit for it by suggestion the money is spent better elsewhere. Large items of kit like more Type 26s or new destroyers or even new aircraft will cost the current Government next to nothing because they won’t be delivered until the 2030s. That type of expenditure will not help us in an imminent war anyway. Don’t get me wrong I believe they are most likely to want to fulfill their promise on… Read more »

George
George (@guest_856915)
17 days ago
Reply to  Jacko

Comes as no surprise. Countless people warned us about Two tier Keir and the threat he posed to Great Britain. As usual the wise voices fell on deaf ears. The sheeple voted him in anyway.

Johnlee
Johnlee (@guest_857357)
15 days ago
Reply to  George

15.5% of the eligable UK electroate if you include those not registered to vote. Voted for Labour in the last election. Two teir Stalin got millions less votes than Jeremy Corbyn. Its less the sheeple voted this lot in, rather the Tories were so bad no one could bring themselves to vote for them.

George
George (@guest_857394)
14 days ago
Reply to  Johnlee

Agreed. Tories threw away the majority we gave them to implement BREXIT. Rather than Labour doing anything to win over the electorate. I’m waiting for TTS to be brushed aside by the far left and Trots Corbyn invited back to implement his marxist wet dream. Get ready for visits by his comrades from Cuba and ChiCom PLA Navy stationed in the Thames. The Tooting Popular Front are on the march! ho ho ho.

Norm Browne
Norm Browne (@guest_854806)
24 days ago

Cut cut and then cut the bone. The mantra of governments Tory and Labour alike. Alas sooner or later this strategy will bite us on the ass.

Andy reeves
Andy reeves (@guest_854886)
23 days ago
Reply to  Norm Browne

already is doing politicians don’t read history and repeat the mistakes of the past over and over again.

Math
Math (@guest_855738)
21 days ago
Reply to  Andy reeves

May be about time to remember a strong and solide alliance that has been able to face many hard times. I think it may be time to integrate British and French forces in an integrated command for the best interest of both sides of the channel. It has been working quite well in several occasions. And you may need something else than a minuteman. On our side, we may need more than occasional training with UK. Times are changing fast. And the channel will not protect British wealth in case everything goes on a rough path. Nor will a single… Read more »

AlexS
AlexS (@guest_854966)
23 days ago
Reply to  Norm Browne

Lies.
UK government is full of money
Taxation is reaching again record taxes at the level of dreadful of Atlee government.

David
David (@guest_855003)
23 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

I tend to agree Alex. The money is there but this government will chose to not spend it on defence – just as governments prior have done – Conservative and Labour both. Politicians love to pay lip service that the first duty of any government is the defence of the realm – until it’s time to pony up. Our Armed Forces are in dire shape and the future doesn’t bode well. I truly believe we as a nation will regret these penny-pinching shortsighted decisions to raid the defence budget again and again. The world is not a safe place and… Read more »

Barry Humphries
Barry Humphries (@guest_855029)
23 days ago
Reply to  David

👍

Nick Paton
Nick Paton (@guest_855120)
23 days ago
Reply to  David

Good Morning! Well said! The world has become an unsafe and dangerous place indeed worse than the Cold War period. I do not understand why our politicians are turning a blind eye to what is happening. Any serious government would take immediate measures to rearm to show our enemies we mean business. Sadly as we have seen over the last 30-40 years this is not the case. Good luck everybody when the fighting starts!

Mark B
Mark B (@guest_855208)
22 days ago
Reply to  Nick Paton

You speak although war in enevitable. It isn’t. Indeed I would put it at maybe 20% or 25% max. We have a decent sized navy whcih will do a decent job of meeting any Russian navy which has been so neglected much of it probably won’t float. I wouldn’t write us off just yet.

Steve R
Steve R (@guest_860324)
4 days ago
Reply to  Mark B

War is always inevitable, it’s just a matter of when and where. We lack any strategic depth. The problem we have is that we’ve tailored our armed forces to fight low-intensity conflicts against enemies without air forces, navies or any powerful conventional forces. We’re using low numbers of high-end kit, assuming we’ll never lose a unit in combat. We lack the numbers – in literally everything – to replace units lost in combat. Yes, the Royal Navy is qualitatively far superior to the Russian Navy, but that doesn’t mean our ships are invulnerable. We could lose a ship to a… Read more »

Cripes
Cripes (@guest_861073)
2 days ago
Reply to  Mark B

Mark, there you go again, focusing your good eye on the navy, your blind eye on the fact that any future conflict in Europe will, in the absence of any significant Russian navall capability, be decided principally by airpower and land forces. The RN is as strong as it needs to be or we can afford it to be in peacetime. It is by my reckoning about 60% of the minimum strength needed on M-1 (where M is national mobilisation of reserves). The army is about 38% and the RAF barely 40%. The obsession with the RN in some political… Read more »

pete
pete (@guest_856001)
20 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

National debt is now 100% of GDP, that’s over £180,000 per person, servicing debt is expensive. printing too much money has devalued currency, caused inflation. Government has had to borrow more than expected. Won’t be more money for armed forces!

Mr J Bell
Mr J Bell (@guest_855083)
23 days ago
Reply to  Norm Browne

I am very afraid that moment is fast approaching. If Putin wins in Ukraine, Trump comes into power and abandons Ukraine and potentially NATO and/or president Xi follows through with his pledge to forcibly re-unite Taiwan to his dictatorship in China then we really will be in a world of trouble and wishing we had not cut our armed forces.
There is a very real and increasing risk of utter military defeat unless we continue equipment programmes and replenish the armed forces getting then ready to defend our national interest.

Steve R
Steve R (@guest_860323)
4 days ago
Reply to  Norm Browne

There’s no meat left so now they’re cracking open the bones to get the marrow!

Bulkhead
Bulkhead (@guest_854808)
24 days ago

48 F35’s Not a real argument to keep 2 flat top’s running. 😎

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_854823)
23 days ago
Reply to  Bulkhead

At the risk of repeating well worn arguments; as has always been the case, the real argument for 2 strike carriers is that we can ‘guarantee’ that one will always be available.
The QEC carriers can function as strike carriers and/or LPH.
In fact if you include Argus we have 3 flat tops.
I would argue that this is the least number we need and that we should aim for 2/3 to be deployed at any one time.

RB
RB (@guest_854874)
23 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Actually, the QEC can’t act as LPHs except very unsatisfactorily and unsafely in an extreme emergency. In 2015 the NAO noted “Queen Elizabeth Class is not fully funded to deliver the Helicopter Carrying role in support of Littoral Manoeuvre and the design and safety clearance in its amphibious helicopter support capability is currently limited.” Plans to modify at least POW to allow her to operate as a LPH were finally cancelled c.2018 as a cost saving measure. As such, neither ship has the additional accommodation and hotel facilities, workshops and maintenance facilities, store rooms, armouries, vehicle parking, ramps, C2I, troop assembly… Read more »

Andy reeves
Andy reeves (@guest_854888)
23 days ago
Reply to  RB

which is because THEY Sold ocean

Ian
Ian (@guest_854947)
23 days ago
Reply to  Andy reeves

Ocean was built to commercial- rather than military- standards to save money. This does result in a theoretical 20 year hull life however, so the Brazilians may have bought themselves a maintenance nightmare. Then again we’ve created our own maintenance nightmare by LIFEXing the T23s instead of replacing them on schedule.

RB
RB (@guest_855061)
23 days ago
Reply to  Ian

Ocean was an absolute bargain for the MOD – in 1993 Vickers bid just £139.5 million, almost certainly well under cost. Indeed the tendered price was so far below the MOD’s expectation of £170 million that it was announced that a second vessel might be ordered – but this was cancelled in 1995. However the success of Ocean, particularly during Operation Iraqi Freedom, again led to serious consideration of building a second vessel but with modifications to allow her to also operate as a Joint Casualty Treatment Ship. In April 2005 the MOD admitted it just didn’t have the money… Read more »

Mark B
Mark B (@guest_855189)
22 days ago
Reply to  Ian

What is done cannot be undone. As it stands the T23 is essential and will be for a while possibly even after most of them have been replaced by the T26 & T31.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_854961)
23 days ago
Reply to  Andy reeves

Andy, the issue isn’t that they sold Ocean, it is that it was not replaced with a new LPH, and the crew redirected to the QEC class.
Ocean was knackered, Gunbuster has explained this so many times here now he’s probably tired of repeating himself.
Ocean herself only carried 4 LCVP. The LPDs are the true enablers here in that they carry 4 LCVP, 4 LCU, BARVs, as well as having the C3 and storage capacity.

Mark B
Mark B (@guest_855193)
22 days ago
Reply to  Andy reeves

Who are THEY? RN, MOD or politicians.

The later are people voted in by the system we have in this country to represent us whilst making decisions like this. So essentially they are our decisions.😂

Andy reeves
Andy reeves (@guest_855251)
22 days ago
Reply to  Mark B

if the whole sorry bunch of them had any idea of what they’re doing, things could be better all round

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_854916)
23 days ago
Reply to  RB

I note Andy’s comment. We need to fix the carriers so they are not just a gold plated one trick pony.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_855547)
21 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

They have at least 4 possible roles, not one.

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_855624)
21 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

I understand. But most can be done more cheaply by a cheaper ship such as Argus and / or the Bays. I wonder the degree to which the ‘non carrier strike’ roles have influenced the debate on the design and number of MRSS where it looks like we have decided in favour of 3 large ships versus 6 small / medium vessels.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_856043)
20 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

I think it sensible that our carriers are multi-role to get more value and use out of them. Not sure about its relationship to MRSS.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63 (@guest_856108)
20 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

If they’ve actually ordered 3 MRSS what design have they gone for or is that still pending or some big secret? Are the second three definitely cancelled or still possible. Maybe a different size of design for this might be quite sensible.
I’d like to see a “Cavour” style carrier with dock in the RN as part of the MRSS, for LRG Ops, or the BAE Helicopter carrier with dock, to replace the Albion/Bulwark.

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_856158)
19 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

So, Grant Shapps announced in May that the MRSS program is approved for ‘up to 6 ships’. Then in June there was an announcement from the MOD of funding for an ‘initial 3’. The UK has discontinued discussions with the Dutch about a joint design. It seems the Dutch want a ship of which can replace both their Holland class OPVs and their large LPDs, bit of a stretch, whereas the RN wants replacements for both the LPDs and the Bays, more doable but implies much larger ships 20-30k tons. As far as I can see the design is still… Read more »

Cripes
Cripes (@guest_861074)
2 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

One problem with this unending quest for amphibious landing ships is…we don’t any more have anything very much in the way of troops to land. 3 of the 5 remaining army brigades are supposed to constitute the warfighting division, which would likely be on the North German Plain. One brigade, 16 Air Assault, is the strategic reserve and would be deployed on day one of hostilities. 4 Bde doesn’t have the regular CS and CSS units to deploy prior to mobilisation. There are no spare infantry bns to wade ashore. The Royals are down to two reduced-size raiding bns. We… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_861086)
2 days ago
Reply to  Cripes

Good point. I do wonder whether the ‘unending quest’ isn’t so much for amphibious landing ships as for a lost world to which we are emotionally still attached. Hopefully the defence review will help us to let go and ‘move on’ as they say.

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF (@guest_855185)
22 days ago
Reply to  RB

Speculation requested: Could either/both ships of the QE class be successfully modded, while in refit, to fulfill LPH mission at a feasible price? Presume that the claimed cost savings would be the lower bound of cost projections. Defensive armament changes required for successful mission completion, while operating in the littorals? Factoring in subsequent inflation…🤔😳😱🙄

RB
RB (@guest_855390)
22 days ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

I annoyingly can’t find the NAO report that stated how much had been “saved” by cancelling the LPH mods to POW. I have a vague recollection that it was £27 million but far from certain. The ship was still in build so the mods would have been much easier to make around 2017-19 then now. Add on inflation and you can speculatively at least double, maybe triple, the cost if the work was done now. Incidentally, I have always considered it mad to risk using in littoral waters 65,000t capital ships costing about £3.5 billion each as a makeshift LPH… Read more »

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF (@guest_855765)
21 days ago
Reply to  RB

Yes one can but hope the blokes down at the Admiralty are making similar calculations…🤞🤞

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_855625)
21 days ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

I guess you can do anything if you set your mind to it. I think the question is really isn’t it cheaper, quicker and result in a more flexible fleet to just build another LPD like Ocean or another Argus?

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF (@guest_855767)
21 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Yes, the art of the possible may not be the preferable. 🤔😳

Steven B
Steven B (@guest_854877)
23 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

But F-35s have maintainance schedules and can’t just go out on one aircraft carrier as soon as the other returns . Then you have flying hours building up on airframes meaning maintenance is required more frequently.

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_854909)
23 days ago
Reply to  Steven B

I’m sure these issues can be addressed, albeit by accepting that the complement of F-35s might be less if we reduce the F-35 buy.

John Clark
John Clark (@guest_854927)
23 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Yep, we all know it, the second order for F35 cancelled and a single carrier operational at any one time, with the other in refit/ reserve. Probably swapped every 3 years. 48 aircraft, gets you two operational F35B Squdrons, hopefully some capable UAV’s to help out…. I would (reluctantly) swallow that, if they go full Project Ark Royal with an angled deck, get shot ofbthe ski jump, cats and traps, for a capable loyal wingman and allow safe higher speed RVL’s for the F35. It’s important we have a strike carrier avaliable and this would, at.least, allow this. It’s very… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_855044)
23 days ago
Reply to  John Clark

The one operational and one refit/reserve arrangement would give us powerful strike asset and was at one time the ‘original’ plan. You would think that any cuts ( in planned or ongoing programs) will dovetail into the defence review. You can get a good idea what’s coming by asking a few simple questions like what’s important? what’s urgent? what is a NATO commitment? what can’t realistically can’t be cancelled? what generates skilled UK jobs? My take…I don’t see T26 or T31 programs being cut. MRSS has already been cut to 3, and the RN say they only want 3 custom… Read more »

ADA
ADA (@guest_854834)
23 days ago
Reply to  Bulkhead

The F-35 is funded directly by the treasury. Not from the defence budget.

Nobody has placed orders for the next production lot either, so there’s no reason to assure that it’s 48.

The Govt said they’re ordering another 27 the next production lot.

Cripes
Cripes (@guest_855022)
23 days ago
Reply to  ADA

I’m not sure that’s right ADA.

The MOD’s 2022/23 equipment report states that the 48 F-35bs ordered are part of the RAF’s combat air budget. There is no mention anywhere of this being funded seperately by the Treasury.

Interestingly, further purchases are not in yhe combat air budget, they are in the Strategic Programmes budget, along with Tempest funding. Is this maybe what you were thinking of?

Not a good place to be for additional F-35s, because it means competing with a host of other MOD.flavours of the month and far-fetched projects for a slice of the budget.

Last edited 23 days ago by Cripes
RB
RB (@guest_855068)
23 days ago
Reply to  Cripes

Cripes, you are generally right, with arguably one small exception. The replacement F-35B for the aircraft lost in 2021 will supposedly be paid for by HM Treasury directly rather than out of the MOD’s budget. That is because the Treasury is effectively the insurance company for central government bodies on high value items. However, it is impossible to tell based on published information if a 49th aircraft has actually been ordered by the UK from L-M, three years after the loss. A PMQ is probably needed to get the answer.

Cripes
Cripes (@guest_855079)
23 days ago
Reply to  RB

Thanks RB. Good info on the replacement for the F-35 dropped overboard. You’d think they’d just add an extra aircraft in the next batch! Still, if the cost can be reclaimed from the Treasury and prised out of them any year now, we could actually get to 48.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_855548)
21 days ago
Reply to  ADA

Why would Treasury directly fund F-35s rather than MoD. I find that hard to believe.

grizzler
grizzler (@guest_855137)
22 days ago
Reply to  Bulkhead

Correct,and I firmly believe they won’t.
During the tenure of this government they wil start thhe ball rolling on getting rid of one.

Paul42
Paul42 (@guest_855154)
22 days ago
Reply to  Bulkhead

But a strong argument to get on and order more!

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_855545)
21 days ago
Reply to  Bulkhead

We don’t envisage it likely for both to sail on operations simultaneously. One deployed and one alongside. You can’t have only one carrier. In fact we should have three carriers or 2 carriers and an LPH.

DanielMorgan
DanielMorgan (@guest_854820)
23 days ago

Ah, the obligatory shot at Trump. Trump has his faults, as do all British and European leaders, but he speaks for many, if not most Americans, when he asks the following question: Why does an EU with 450 million people and a GDP of $16 Trillion need 350 million Americans with a GDP of $27 Trillion to defend them? Aren’t 75 years of NATO and millions of deaths in Three World Wars (I, II, and Cold) enough? When does it end?

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg (@guest_854828)
23 days ago
Reply to  DanielMorgan

America’s strength is its alliances. If its alliances do not depend on the US, the US loses its power. This relationship is very very very much in America’s interests

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_855036)
23 days ago

Some common sense at last. Trouble is mind too many Americans just don’t get that just as they didn’t in the thirties comprehend that the fall of Europe would have left the US a big kid in a back yard at best while the winner in Europe would have the wider World at its mercy politically, economically and threat while the US as would happen now too watched itself increasingly unable to influence matters. Europe needs to pull it weight but its relative lack of mobilisation over the years was seen for a long time as placating Russia and reducing… Read more »

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF (@guest_855195)
22 days ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

While the strategy of placating the Russians may have been remotely plausible pre-2014 (Russian occupation of Crimea, Donbas) or 2022 (full Russian invasion attempt of UKR), what is the justification for ENATO delaying rearmament at this point? With the exception of Poland, the Baltic states, and, to a certain extent, the Nordic countries, is any other country in ENATO seriously concerned about potential threats? During the mid-to-late 1930s the UK had a rational strategy: diplomacy accompanied by rearmament, in preparation for inevitable conflict. Is there any credible evidence of rearmament in the rest of ENATO currently, or even serious discussion… Read more »

Chris
Chris (@guest_855768)
21 days ago

Total fallacy. What is an alliance where your allies can’t even help you? If China invades California, what is the EU going to do about it? Nothing.

Andy reeves
Andy reeves (@guest_854893)
23 days ago
Reply to  DanielMorgan

it doesn’t and won’t

HF
HF (@guest_854923)
23 days ago
Reply to  DanielMorgan

If it wasn’t in the USA’s interests there would be no NATO. After WW2 they were ready to go back home into isolationism until they were persuaded that leaving Europe as it was would leave it open to Stalin.

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus (@guest_854949)
23 days ago
Reply to  DanielMorgan

You’re not comparing like. Europe is not a nation state. It wasn’t an ‘obligatory shot at Trump ‘, simply an observation. When did MAGA Americans become so thin skinned? In actual fact, Trump speaks only for himself and his Russian friends.

AlexS
AlexS (@guest_854969)
23 days ago

Strangely for you it was Trump the first US president to approve weapons for Ukraine.

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus (@guest_854993)
23 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

Nope. He actually tried to leverage any weapon supply for any information about Hunter Biden’s business deals in Ukraine. Which led to him facing impeachment., not that Russian troll bots would know that.

AlexS
AlexS (@guest_855005)
23 days ago

Nope what. The weapons were sent.

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus (@guest_855017)
23 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

Putin invaded in Feb. 2022. Check your calendar, Trump was out of office a long time by then. Whatever little he provided made no difference whatsoever. You really haven’t a clue.

pete
pete (@guest_856003)
20 days ago

Trump most likely to end the war , expect more attempts on his life as they want to keep the gravy train going and transfer ownership of Ukraine’s farmland and minerals to the west for more loans.

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus (@guest_856027)
20 days ago
Reply to  pete

Nope. Deluded much?

Steve R
Steve R (@guest_860340)
4 days ago
Reply to  pete

Utter rubbish.

A poor attempt, Trollski!

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_854986)
23 days ago

To be honest, more than anything else my worry for the US, is that statement you made “ when did MAGA Americans become so thin skinned”. To be honest once no one cared in the UK and Europe about US politics and who won the election ( i the same way the U.S. does not care who wins UK elections). Now I look at the U.S. elections and don’t really consider who’s winning as they key issue. I now look at US elections and think, is this the election where a proud democracy falls into mass civil disorder and possibly… Read more »

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus (@guest_855040)
23 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I agree absolutely. I remember a time when US Republican leaders were fearless in standing up to Russian dictators, not fawning sycophants towards them. It’s no coincidence that so many of Trump’s stated foreign policy aims regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine align perfectly with Putin’s war aims.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_855051)
23 days ago

What I find really worrying is the unwillingness to accept or acknowledge the valid results of an election..link that with some heavily armed radicals who think their nation has been stolen and are prepared and ready this time ( and fired up over two assassination attempts on their man) and the U.S. could be in for some pretty awful times.

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus (@guest_855095)
23 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Yeah, it’s partly the result of a huge percentage of the population being gulled by Russian and Chinese netbots on social media to believe the false AI generated narratives they peddle. As a result then, they believe anything that Trump tells them. ( cats, dogs, stolen elections etc). The same is happening here as well.

Dern
Dern (@guest_855344)
22 days ago

Trump is a danger to NATO, but he 100% is a bigger threat to the Republic and Constitutions. “I will be a dictator on day one” and “Vote for me and you’ll never have to vote again.”

I could all to easily imagine an Austrian Corporal shouting about Jews eating peoples cats and dogs…

klonkie
klonkie (@guest_855383)
22 days ago
Reply to  Dern

Mate, that’s a frightening analogy, I fear you may well be right! The one ray of light is that a president cannot override congress or the senate – a safety net for democracy.

I am really at a loss to understand the Trump/Vance reluctance to support the Ukraine. Perhaps they have a plan to cut a deal wit Putin possibly Russia keeps the Crimea and they pull out of the Ukraine?

It would be good to see an end to the suffering.

Simon
Simon (@guest_855387)
22 days ago
Reply to  klonkie

Trump seems to think of everything as a business deal. What you put vs what you get out of it

klonkie
klonkie (@guest_855431)
22 days ago
Reply to  Simon

cheers Simon.

Dern
Dern (@guest_855408)
22 days ago
Reply to  klonkie

Pretty simple really. Trump admires Putin and Putin see’s Trump as a gullible fool who will believe anything he says as long a he massages Trumps ego. They’re buddies.

Zelensky also told Trump to get lost when Trump tried to twist his arm into framing Hunter Biden, so there’s a personal grudge there as well. Trump/Vance will make a deal where Putin gets everything he wants.

klonkie
klonkie (@guest_855430)
22 days ago
Reply to  Dern

cheers for the insight Dern – it’s a sad sate of affairs.

Simon
Simon (@guest_855515)
22 days ago
Reply to  Dern

Good point, about Trump ego.

Dern
Dern (@guest_855707)
21 days ago
Reply to  klonkie

Unless the Upper and Lower Houses are Republican and are aiding and abetting him… and remember where Project 2025 wants to replace all civil servants with political appointees? How effective would, eg, the Senate be if all the civil servants working for it where pro-Trump.

Or you know… how fascism works.

klonkie
klonkie (@guest_855757)
21 days ago
Reply to  Dern

Man, that’s a frightening prospect. I can see how fascism applies in this scenario – scary.

Dern
Dern (@guest_855840)
21 days ago
Reply to  klonkie

Worth noting that since the debate there have been a number of reported violent attacks on Haitian immigrants in America.

Wish I hadn’t been able to predict it, it’s all very Kristallnacht. :/

Klonkie
Klonkie (@guest_856060)
20 days ago
Reply to  Dern

That does feel like Germany mid to late 30s. Have a good weekend Bud.

Steve R
Steve R (@guest_860341)
4 days ago
Reply to  Dern

Replace golf with painting as a hobby and it’s basically the same thing!

Simon
Simon (@guest_855012)
23 days ago

JD Vance let the cat out of the bag last week about Trump plans for Ukraine which is basely to hand over all the territory to Russia that they have occupied

Dern
Dern (@guest_855346)
22 days ago
Reply to  Simon

And then Trump will claim he’s not talked to Vance about it (He probably hasn’t and they’ve just made plans that they know they can lead Trump too) and all of his supporters will be like “See Trumps hands are clean, he’s not pro-Putin!”

pete
pete (@guest_856005)
20 days ago
Reply to  Simon

If all the farmland and minerals in Ukraine end up foreign owned what sort of vassal state will it be !

Steve R
Steve R (@guest_860342)
4 days ago
Reply to  pete

Shut up you moron!

pete
pete (@guest_860434)
4 days ago
Reply to  Steve R

You must have anger issues, I think you try getting some help. being offensive due to differing opinion shows a lack of maturity !

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky (@guest_855038)
23 days ago

Equally Europe has spent heaps of money over decades bringing Eastern Europe out of the morass the Soviets left it in to try to create a democratic self sustaining region, those countries decline and effective rape during and post WW2 being the flip side of the very wealth inducing events that made America ‘great, and exceptionally wealthy to enable it to become the worlds sole super power for so long.

Dern
Dern (@guest_855341)
22 days ago
Reply to  DanielMorgan

Well lets go again with this: First of all: America didn’t defend Europe in either World War. In World War I they only entered after Germany threatened their precious war profits, and even then where realisitcally a bit player after the UK and France. In World War II they only joined after Hitler declared War on them. Neither was done out of altruism. As for NATO during the Cold War: Of the 42 Division in NORTHAG, CENTAG and LANDSOUTH only 4 where American (and that’s ignoring the divisions in LANDSOUTHCENT and LANDSOUTHEAST). This theoretically could have grown to 14 through… Read more »

klonkie
klonkie (@guest_855758)
21 days ago
Reply to  Dern

some good insights here Dern- a thought provoking piece.

Lonpfrb
Lonpfrb (@guest_856074)
20 days ago
Reply to  Dern

The only NATO member to invoke Article 5 was the USA (9/11) when everyone responded. So clearly NATO membership is the USA national interest. Congress passed a law to prevent an Executive Order to exit NATO. . NATO says the 2014 spending agreement is on track, so #45’s alleged delinquency by Europe is just to trigger his supporters. Lies. . So it’s in the national interest of the free world and Ukraine that convicted fraudster and rapist #45 is defeated by US voters in November🇺🇸 Patriots put Country over party Democracy not dictatorship 💙 Another #45 term means that the… Read more »

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_855552)
21 days ago
Reply to  DanielMorgan

Is the USA only in NATO to defend Europe?

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg (@guest_854826)
23 days ago

It’s all very depressing watching this country decide to kill itself. Lot of history and tradition we’ve collectively decided to incinerate over the past 20 years

Martin
Martin (@guest_854831)
23 days ago

Doom and gloom, with out facts to back it up, just a person opinion. As all ways scare every on shite less. I do not doubt the defence (spending) review will be smoke and mirrors for less money, they always are.

ADA
ADA (@guest_854836)
23 days ago

An important thing to remember is that the ‘cuts’ are simply based upon the existing MOD deficit. There isn’t much point of discussing Type 32 or Type 83 being scrapped. The budget hasn’t been allocated past 2033. It’s unrealistic to assume that MOD will forever stop buying equipment past 2033. Up until 2033, 40% of the equipment budget is taken up by nukes. After, money for equipment should ease considerably. I look at defence currently through a more positive lens. By around 2033, we will have new 13 frigates in service, 3 MRSS (min), Boxer, Ajax, Ch 3, 74 F-35… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_854852)
23 days ago
Reply to  ADA

Good to see some positivity amongst the doom and gloom. While I would not trust Labour with defence any further than I can toss them, it must be acknowledged the current state of the forces is at the door of the Tories. Labour are barely through the door, so lets see. I share the pessimism of many but I try to take positives, always. Some of the programs listed in the article barely exist, they are not cuts as such. The no 1 priority must remain keeping the forces from shrinking any further, that includes recruitment and retention. On overall… Read more »

ADA
ADA (@guest_854862)
23 days ago

100% agreed. Across Westminster, politicians (until Boris) have treated defence as nothing more than an afterthought and shamefully haven’t made a case for its importance.

What’s most important is that we dont shut down production lines, as that creates political buy-in.

Shutting down Rosythe for example is going to look unjustifiable once Type 31 is complete.

Andy reeves
Andy reeves (@guest_854902)
23 days ago
Reply to  ADA

well we can take it as a given that T32 is not going to happen. and maybe T83 as well. follow on to astute? we’ll be totally dependent on AI.

ADA
ADA (@guest_854917)
23 days ago
Reply to  Andy reeves

All of those proposed projects would take effect after 2033, when the equipment budget hasn’t even been allocated yet.

There is no point in cancelling projects which aren’t costing you money within your envisioned budget cycle.

HF
HF (@guest_854934)
23 days ago
Reply to  ADA

Please, let’s not bring reason into it. All politicians are bastards, after all

Jonno
Jonno (@guest_854984)
23 days ago
Reply to  Andy reeves

I think if the T32 is an upgrade with an ASW role, it is cheaper to continue with it and subsidise its sales for export than not to build it at all. It can be subsidised out of the aid budget.

To survive in the open sea if we have an RN at all we will need a T83. Again they can be used in a Home Defence role if we build 10 and keep 3 based on the Clyde.

Andy reeves
Andy reeves (@guest_854900)
23 days ago

rationisation, means cuts and more cuts GLOBAL BRITAIN? never even started,

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_854939)
23 days ago
Reply to  Andy reeves

Andy, what do you think “Global Britain” actually is?
I’ll give you a clue, it never ended.

Andy reeves
Andy reeves (@guest_854942)
23 days ago

I don’t think it ever started. I’ve seen nothing to account for it

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_854960)
23 days ago
Reply to  Andy reeves

Don’t just think in military terms, Andy.
Boris Johnson thought up this Global Britain slogan to describe something that already exists.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_854989)
23 days ago
Reply to  Andy reeves

I think you need to remember even before anything else the UK is a nation that still straddles the globe, we have sovereign territory in every ocean of the world, we are and will remain one of the biggest 10 economies in the world, we still have one of the most effective and powerful BLUE water navies in the world. London is still a centre of trade, we still 4 out of 10 of the greatest centres of education and research in the world. Just because we are no longer the preeminent super power in the world does not mean… Read more »

Cripes
Cripes (@guest_855030)
23 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

We know we trade globally and are on the UN P5, etc. Most of the developed world also trades globally, dozens of countries have far longer coastlines than we do. One can go on listing things we like to think make Britain some kind of special player on the world stage. We are not really. Boris bought into this Global Britain narrative to attract the easily fooled but left the defence budget at barely 2% of GDP. He fooled people by adding in the funding for Ukraine, which comes from the Treasury Contingency Reserve budget, not from the defence budget,… Read more »

Peter S
Peter S (@guest_855032)
23 days ago
Reply to  Cripes

I agree and have posted a similar view.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_855355)
22 days ago
Reply to  Cripes

Not necessarily mate, there is some common ground I can agree on!😆

Meirion X
Meirion X (@guest_855368)
22 days ago
Reply to  Cripes

The UK is a Permanent member, of the United Nations Security Council. That is why we need to punch above our weight.
We have a sort of shared global policing role.
I think some on here would prefer to give that role to a country that is less friendly to the interests of the West, and more friendly with ruZZia☠
It will be in the interests of our adversaries to topple Britain’s place in the above mentioned global role.

Last edited 22 days ago by Meirion X
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_855354)
22 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Exactly.
Add nukes.
Soft power.
The English language.
Diplomatic and cultural links.
The monarchy.
We are somebody regardless if we have 14 escorts or 50.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_855555)
21 days ago
Reply to  Andy reeves

Two carriers is surely representative of Global Britain?

Expat
Expat (@guest_855324)
22 days ago

Yes they’re barely through the door but the thing is there has to be cuts in capability because you can’t raise pay and add more civil servants and buy more expensive uk kit then keep the budget the same without cutting capability. They will of course blame the Tories I would but reality is they have already made choices in their manifesto and first weeks in office that make capability cuts inevitable.

Jon
Jon (@guest_854860)
23 days ago
Reply to  ADA

There are already some extra relatively minor cuts (in-year savings on administration budgets, because the word administration feels like it can stand a cut, irrespective of how many times that has already happened in the last 14 years. If they get something wrong the best solution is always to cut the budget and pay for fewer, less competent people next time.) We have been warned to prepare for war in 2027 (by the CGS). Xi has already said China is preparing for war in 2027. I’m sure someone should write to him and ask that it be deferred until 2033,… Read more »

FormerUSAF
FormerUSAF (@guest_855048)
23 days ago
Reply to  Jon

Agree, the ChiComs represent the more serious medium to longer term threat, although the threat of Mad Vlad and the marauding Orcs should not be entirely discounted, as a minority partner in an unholy alliance. Quite interesting dichotomy in the geopolitical perspectives of ENATO, w/ frontline states dramatically increasing defence budgets, while presumed rear echelon states maintain a very casual, relaxed attitude toward defence preparedness.
Curious whether attitudes will change when PLA (including PLAAF, PLAN) brackets ENATO from every quadrant?

Jon
Jon (@guest_855814)
21 days ago
Reply to  FormerUSAF

We’ve already suffered the economic shocks of the Ukraine War and they’ve largely been discounted; inflation is nominal again. However, any war over Taiwan will cause a global financial tsunami sweeping away the vestiges of some mythical balanced UK budget that Reeves is aiming for. I can’t see China bothering to expand into the Atlantic before that, precisely because they don’t want to alter the perspectives of UK, Germany, France and Italy.

Ian
Ian (@guest_854861)
23 days ago
Reply to  ADA

The trouble with that is that we need to be able to deter WWIII breaking out, and the risk of it kicking off in the South China Sea is likely to peak before 2030.

ADA
ADA (@guest_854865)
23 days ago
Reply to  Ian

In the South China Sea, we would be fighting with NATO. Italy and France are sending CSGs to the Indo-Pacific next year. I’m quite sure that smaller countries such as Norway are sending escorts to join these NATO CSGs.

What’s been very important for us was to get those deliveries of F35s. We will have 48 by the end of the year (47 minus the one lost).

Andy reeves
Andy reeves (@guest_854905)
23 days ago
Reply to  ADA

i can see more calls for a European defence organisation. the AU K does not need the fleet air arm which is constantly at war with the RAF to get the upper hand in the who gets what game.espially the F35’s

ADA
ADA (@guest_854913)
23 days ago
Reply to  Andy reeves

Well it’s too late. Our navy is built around the carriers and we’re procuring MRSS. The Air Vice-Marshall reconfirmed the 138 F-35B target alongside Tempest as the future of the air force. I think that it’s too late to look back on F-35B. That’s the only item of our defence spending that I’m aware is directly funded by the Treasury (rather than defence budgets). The EU states are still quite fragmented when it comes to defence, so don’t expect a unified defence force for many reasons. For example, Italy have been sidelined from the development of high end systems by… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_854941)
23 days ago
Reply to  ADA

What is your source for F35 directly funded by HMT? I have never heard of that. We are not going to get 138 F35B and Tempest, the Combat Air Budget does not stretch to that as it is. As it is, tranche 2 of F35B and Tempest I would be ecstatic with. 12 Billion is allocated to Tempest over the next decade. An easy saving, but an idiotic one as Tempest will make a profit for UKPLC like F35 has. The problem is the MoD budget does not see that profit, and 12 billion is a lot of money now… Read more »

ADA
ADA (@guest_854955)
23 days ago

Google ‘F-35 Ring Fenced’. James Cartilage quoted. That’s the closest I can find atm, though I read something a few years ago with plainer language. To be clearer, reading NAO reports directly implies that ringfenced (they use to describe nukes) means that HMT promise to fund any cost overruns without affecting the defence budget. Not that this doesn’t affect the budget altogether. I’m almost certain that we’re tied in to F-35 by our substantial workshare and we can’t ignore that the Navy’s future is built around FAA. I want to be clear that I’ve read quite a bit of the… Read more »

Cripes
Cripes (@guest_855034)
23 days ago
Reply to  ADA

I am struggling with a lot of your points ADA. The nuclear budget is not 40% of the equipment budget, it is precisely 27 % of the budget over the next 10 years. The nuclear budget will not suddenly cease in 2033 as you seem to think. We will still have 3 or all 4 Dreadnoughts to fund and hard on their heels AUKUS. The nuclear budget will not diminish at some set point as you seem to think. The F-35 budget does not come directly from the Treasury at all. The first 48 are funded in the Combat Air… Read more »

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_855559)
21 days ago
Reply to  ADA

‘Ring fenced’ just means that MoD has funds for a particular programme and has earmarked them and intends not to shift any of those funds to another project or towards general operating costs. Nothing to do with HMT.

Andy reeves
Andy reeves (@guest_854899)
23 days ago
Reply to  ADA

but, we’ll still have a fixation with whatever shiny gadget that the US brings to 5 marketplace and by the looks of it the industrial base won’t be any better. we’ll be stuck waiting for than we should for the delivery on contracts already placed across the defence estate

Meirion X
Meirion X (@guest_855905)
20 days ago
Reply to  ADA

You forgotten the continuing upgrades on existing vessels, ie. Sea Ceptor, NSM etc.

RB
RB (@guest_854844)
23 days ago

A very depressing article! I’m actually a tad more optimistic on the basis that it be disastrous for the credibility of Starmer and Lammy on the world stage if Britain announced another round of defence cuts. It would be be particularly bad if this “temporarily” took core defence spending below 2.0% of GDP. It’s barely above that at the moment, and the often claimed 2.3% of GDP is only reached by including UK aid to Ukraine – and then rounding up!

HF
HF (@guest_854935)
23 days ago
Reply to  RB

And including military pensions, apparently.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_855561)
21 days ago
Reply to  RB

A good year ago a senior American officer told our then SofS that our army was no longer Tier 1.

maurice10
maurice10 (@guest_854854)
23 days ago

But we are at war with Russia, but it’s just not been admitted and we are going to see defence cuts!!!

Angus
Angus (@guest_854876)
23 days ago
Reply to  maurice10

No we are not, relations are still open with Russia. Get your facts right!

maurice10
maurice10 (@guest_854885)
23 days ago
Reply to  Angus

Sadly Angus we are in all but name you see it’s by proxy along with the rest of NATO. Your anger should be levelled at the Government who believe it can cut defence in the face of real danger to our country. By the way, the Isle of Mann is still at war with Russia.

Smickers
Smickers (@guest_854937)
23 days ago
Reply to  maurice10

I thought it was Berwick on Tweed who were still at war with the Russians as they were not included in the peace treaty after the Crimean War
Isle of Man as well?
Berwick is an interesting historical case They play football in the Scottish Leagues but are English if the locals wish it

Angus
Angus (@guest_854953)
23 days ago
Reply to  Smickers

Berwick signed that off some time ago, it is a town that takes from both sides of the Border to suit it’s needs.

maurice10
maurice10 (@guest_854985)
23 days ago
Reply to  Smickers

Absolutely Smickers, and the Tynwald Government can arrest any Russian visitor as a prisoner of war and vice-versa, daft but true.

Angus
Angus (@guest_854954)
23 days ago
Reply to  maurice10

Then by that we are also at War with North Korea and Iran too then!!!!! And the West only just giving enough kit to slow the pace of the war not enough to Ukraine to WIN. Have you been to War? It’s not a place I’d wish anyone to be and the cost to all sides makes everyone losers. It will come to a close soon enough as Russia is spent and Putin’s days are numbered. So when you look at it MAN has not really advanced in all the years we have been around, still killing each other for… Read more »

maurice10
maurice10 (@guest_854988)
23 days ago
Reply to  Angus

The issue is this, we do not give arms to North Korea nor Iran so that is not a good comparison. However, if Storm Shadow is deployed into Russia in numbers and Russian civilians die also in numbers, that is war by proxy as such a weapon would otherwise not be in the Ukrainian arsenal. I’m a firm supporter of Ukraine’s right to defend itself but in all honesty the lines of engagement are rapidly becoming fuzzy, which may prove to be a step too far in terms of international law and NATO doctrines?

Lonpfrb
Lonpfrb (@guest_856075)
20 days ago
Reply to  maurice10

The war by proxy is just an FSB talking point of no consequence.

In 1982 the Argentines had French made Exocet anti-ship missiles pointed towards UK critical capital ships.

Did Margaret Thatcher acuse France of reopening the 100 years war, by proxy?

Of course not!

Ukraine is a sovereign democratic nation with the right to defend itself using all the weapons available as they choose.

Slava 🇺🇦

Last edited 20 days ago by Lonpfrb
Sam
Sam (@guest_855089)
23 days ago
Reply to  Angus

We need to wait and see.

I am as guilty as anyone of pessimism much of the time.

But today on Army Technology there is a very informative article that Britain is well on the way to buying the units needed to uplevel the MLRS fleet to over 70 vehicles, which would be more than any other country except the US.

There is also a number of sources discussing the purchase of next generation TAIPAN radars for enhanced anti air capability.

So even today there is good news with the concerns.

Ian
Ian (@guest_854855)
23 days ago

Based on what we’ve seen in Ukraine I wonder how survivable the New Medium Helicopter would be in any serious future conflict. It would certainly be logical for a competent government- faced with the current geopolitical reality- to ring-fence defence spending and make any necessary cuts elsewhere, whereas an incompetent government would just protect spending in areas that it perceived to be most popular. This government has only been in office 5 minutes and is already displaying clear signs of being the latter type (just like its predecessor).

Andy reeves
Andy reeves (@guest_854906)
23 days ago
Reply to  Ian

we’ll not get any banged together for years who in the U.K can produce them in the numbers we’ll need or quickly enough?

Dern
Dern (@guest_855349)
22 days ago
Reply to  Ian

Depends, as ever, on it’s use case.
Certainly we won’t be looking at doing HAF’s and the like with them deep behind enemy lines.

Charles Verrier
Charles Verrier (@guest_854867)
23 days ago

Sadly defence is one of those areas where you can roll the dice on cuts and get away with it for years if world events transpire in your favour. Ministers can then move to other jobs while patting themselves on the back for delivering ‘efficiency savings’, when all they did was get lucky that capability ‘X’ wasn’t needed.

Defence thoughts
Defence thoughts (@guest_854889)
23 days ago

Whoever came up with the “Peace Dividend” should be named and shamed.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_855564)
21 days ago

It wouldn’t have been so bad if the forces just came down to levels set in Options for Change, ie to come down to an army of 120,000 regs, 386 tanks and two deployable divisions.

Klonkie
Klonkie (@guest_856061)
20 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Hi Graham. Th force levels outlined in the 1998 defence review seemed about right- re the RAF and RN. I imagine this wold require a minimum of 3% of gdp on defence spend however.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_856106)
20 days ago
Reply to  Klonkie

They were about right for the army as I implied. Every cut since has been an unjustified savings measure. To return to the correct post Cold War figures which were decided upon after considerable analysis would indeed require a min of 3% of GDP.

Klonkie
Klonkie (@guest_856354)
19 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Thank you Graham. I didn’t comment on the army as it’s a bit outside of my knowledge area.

Andy reeves
Andy reeves (@guest_854884)
23 days ago

the cuts should centre around the Micky mouse oroteus and Stirling castle type programms id expect one of two T23′ and a remaining Trafalgar to go. maybe a shore establishment.

Klonkie
Klonkie (@guest_856062)
20 days ago
Reply to  Andy reeves

Andy. I also have reservations re those vessels. My understanding was that the 2 Echo class ships had MCM capability. Seemed a waste of good assets.

Andy reeves
Andy reeves (@guest_857463)
14 days ago
Reply to  Klonkie

the fact that they could operate with a towed array sonar could have been given more credence. they wouldn’t make anti submarine frigates. but what is to say that they couldn’t be a valuable tool. in local waters? bung the torpedo system from Montrose or Monmouth onto the and well who knows what the results could give us.the royal navy was renowned for innovations in the past,we’re not these days because people who have influence still believe that war at sea is done by ships sailing in a line past each other.

Wyn Beynon
Wyn Beynon (@guest_854896)
23 days ago

Very interesting. Where do you get all your information? I like fact checking!

BeaconLights2
BeaconLights2 (@guest_854898)
23 days ago

Selling bases for short term ‘gains’ is a tragedy. Everything the MoD has sold off to the private sector has been a disaster. Usually they extract anything of value then turn them into business parks or housing developments, netting all the profits from the land. Or worse still, sometimes the MoD then leases back parts of the land that it still needs. Royal ordanance went up in smoke ad BAE killed UK barrel making. Why can Rheinmettal turn a profit selling barrels but not BAE?

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_855568)
21 days ago
Reply to  BeaconLights2

Perhaps Rheimetall sell more gun barrels than BAE did.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_856107)
20 days ago
Reply to  BeaconLights2

Many, not all, disused RAF bases in the UK were sold off before they could be used for the tens of thousands of troops returning from Germany.

Geoffi
Geoffi (@guest_854919)
23 days ago

And all to chuck the savings into the NHS, Foreign Aid, Net Zero and asylum seeker black holes.
What a shadow of its former self this country has become.

Andrew D
Andrew D (@guest_855007)
23 days ago
Reply to  Geoffi

Don’t forget HS2 👍

Leh
Leh (@guest_855056)
23 days ago
Reply to  Geoffi

Climate action should be a priority alongside defence. Otherwise, our world will become even more politically unstable.

Patrick
Patrick (@guest_854929)
23 days ago

Insanity to have let it get so bad, unthinkable to cut more.

Andrew D
Andrew D (@guest_855008)
23 days ago
Reply to  Patrick

Specially when the world 🌎 is at peace ✌ 🙄

Mathew Crick
Mathew Crick (@guest_854944)
23 days ago

You do contradict yourself somewhat, with some emphasis paid on a pivot to Asia? Why really should that even be a consideration? The US has clearly stated that as their objective so ours should be the Gulf, Med, North Sea and North Atlantic.

Maybe we should wait and see rather than speculate, and then we can go all doomsday on the situation. Yes they could axe everything. But as you have yourself stated a few times in your own article, that’s also quite unlikely.

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah (@guest_854959)
23 days ago

Despite the rhetoric prior to the election about defence. This government continues to ignore the simple facts. Current levels of spending are no where near enough. Even 2.5 isn’t enough. 3% is where defence spending needs to be. My only hope is that Lord Robertson knows his stuff and I doubt he would put his name to a defence review if he didn’t have some guarantees it would be honoured. Further as someone who supported the change of government we seem to have a administration who are hell bent on being a one term parliament , Rachel Reeves seems to… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_854963)
23 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

if he didn’t have some guarantees it would be honoured.”

Like the 32 Escorts, 12 SSN, and 23 Fast Jet Sqns that comprised the 1997 SDSR he also presided over before those numbers collapsed to 23, 7, and 12 by 2010?

I wish that point about Lord Robertson was true, clearly it meant nothing last time.

klonkie
klonkie (@guest_855070)
23 days ago

Spot on D ! 👍

Cripes
Cripes (@guest_856042)
20 days ago

In fairness, the 23 escorts, 7 SSNs and 12 fast jet squadrons Blair/Brown left us with look like a semi-serious force compared to how far things have been run down over the 14 years of Tory governance. 23 escorts down to 19 planned and 15 at present. 7 SSNs retained, down to 6 currently. Most seriously and criminally, the wafer-thin force of 12 fast jet squadrons down to 6, with a 7th forming – but the equivalent of that 7th squadron being scrapped, with the withdrawl of the Typhoon F2s. So reality is that we have the equivalent of 6… Read more »

Last edited 20 days ago by Cripes
DaveyB
DaveyB (@guest_854968)
23 days ago
Reply to  Michael Hannah

Sadly as per Ben Wallace, Lord Robertson will likely make the case that we do need to raise spending to 2.5 to 3%. But then the Treasury will say it’s unaffordable, so nothing will change.

Michael Hannah
Michael Hannah (@guest_854972)
23 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

It is a bit galling when the government continually tells us we live in an increasingly dangerous world and then do SFA about it.
This utterly stupid pledge not to raise taxes just makes my blood boil. Paying low taxes is self defeating when the barbarians are at the gate.
Everything else, health education means nothing if the country is not adequately defended.

Jon
Jon (@guest_855817)
21 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Lord Robertson might make the case (I hope he has the balls), but as it has already been ruled out of scope of the SDR, it will definitely be ignored.

Peter S
Peter S (@guest_854970)
23 days ago

Britain’s problem is that it managed its post WW2 decline rather well, avoiding the catastrophes that France suffered in trying to keep its colonies. In doing so, rather than facing a sudden one off reduction in military capabilities, we experienced decades’ long gradual cuts that have continued until now. So a sense of decline overshadows every decision. It would be more useful to forget the past and start a defence review from zero.What do we need to defend ourselves against likely enemies over the next 20/30 years? I suspect that the answer might suggest a force rather different from the… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_855837)
21 days ago
Reply to  Peter S

Good post. Agree with your interpretation of how we reached our present situation – the momentum of post WW2 end of Empire decline has carried us to this low point. Also agree that a ‘reboot’ from ground zero is the way to go, rather than increasing capabilities based on deceased imperial foundations. Boxer, T26 and T31 are green shoots.

Jon
Jon (@guest_855907)
20 days ago
Reply to  Peter S

People forget that the F-35 programme purchases are profitable for the UK. Maintenance, training, etc, not so much. However the UK manufactures >15% of the cost of each F-35 (more for the F-35Bs). So of the 1000+ F-35s sold, the Treasury has already recouped the cost of over 75 planes in taxes from UK manufacturing. As always the Treasury ignores this and just talks costs. But yes we can afford to fund Tempest at the levels of the F-35. I hope, through onward sales, it will be even more profitable for UK Plc. Once again the Treasury will ignore the… Read more »

AlexS
AlexS (@guest_854971)
23 days ago

As expected one more article lying about Trump. Trump is not against NATO it is against others not contributing and the author helps them.
So in fact it can be said is the author that is anti NATO, or wants to live of US taxpayers.

Leh
Leh (@guest_855057)
23 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

The same Trump who said he wouldn’t defend NATO members who didn’t meet the 2% goal?

Lonpfrb
Lonpfrb (@guest_856143)
19 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

NATO says the 2014 spending agreement is on track, so his alleged delinquency by Europe is just to trigger his ignorant supporters. Lies. . So it’s in the national interest of the free world and Ukraine that convicted fraudster and rapist #45 is defeated by US voters in November The only NATO member to invoke Article 5 was the USA (9/11) when everyone responded. So clearly NATO membership is the USA national interest. Congress passed a law to prevent an Executive Order to exit NATO. Project 2025 plans to replace competence with loyalty to the dictator as their selection criteria.… Read more »

Jonno
Jonno (@guest_854975)
23 days ago

This lack of investment for the Armed Forces is only likely to increase now with the New Old Labour Government in absolute control.

History tells us that the thing about Labour Governments even more that Conservative ones is they are Self Fullfilling Prophecies of Decline, in that they lack ambition except in the sense that they want to destroy everything that their predecessors achieved.

Coll
Coll (@guest_854987)
23 days ago

£91,000 for an MP. Plus an MP can hold multiple positions and acquire separate pensions for each position they hold. Plus expenses. I will leave this here to fester like the bad smell inhabiting parliament.

Last edited 23 days ago by Coll
Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_855569)
21 days ago
Reply to  Coll

Those expenses include the full cost of heating their homes!

Andrew D
Andrew D (@guest_855006)
23 days ago

What’s wrong with our politicians guy’s 🙄 ?

Frank62
Frank62 (@guest_855018)
23 days ago

Cutting criminally weak forces in the face of naked aggression & looming war is insanity.

If HMG doesn’t take our forces seriously, why should any of our enemies?

Last edited 23 days ago by Frank62
Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_855035)
23 days ago

I honestly don’t think, it’s going to be as bad as most people think. Mainly because the geopolitical situation is worse than most people want to admit and the risk of being in a global shooting war is high. Also the financial situation is quite frankly short term…the 20 billion black hole is in year and not structural..so although the Labour government are harping on about it, they know it’s not a long term issue. But it allows them to manage some of the long term in-balances they don’t like ( if anyone thinks the removing the winter fuel allowance… Read more »

klonkie
klonkie (@guest_855069)
23 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Hi Jonathan. Am interesting read and IMHO an excellent summary of potential outcomes. I agree with your view there is precious little left to cut in 2025.It’s likely to be better than anticipated (but not great however).Some observation’s RAF I agree 12 sqn is likely to go – particularly with the draw down of Typhoon T1, do they convert to F35? I’m thinking a future force: 6 x Typhoon sqns, 4x F35 sqns (2 RAF, 2 FAA). I can see the RAF acquiring a further pair of 737 re Wedgetail seeing thy have with 5 radars. Those in the RAF… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_855100)
23 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Great post. Good knowledge and summing up.

Defence thoughts
Defence thoughts (@guest_855250)
22 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Good post!

Stephanie
Stephanie (@guest_855252)
22 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Black hole? If there was a black hole the government should be sending money abroad should it?

The UK struggle to send a division to fight GW1. And you talk about us sending one to Europe?

There will be no second batch of Type 31, who will crew them? Type 31 is poorly fitted out. If there is anymore surely it would be better spent addressing that?

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_855277)
22 days ago
Reply to  Stephanie

If you read, I said if the government decide they want the ability to deploy a heavy division..if they only wish to deploy a a heavy brigade with extras that’s a choice..but my point was they need to decide and fund appropriately… if we did get a second batch of type 31 then they would likely need to recruit crews..if they went that direction the crews would be needed in the mid 2030s a decade away…people always whinge about how would you crew them…that’s only an issue if you either..suddenly got the ability to magic up ships or could not… Read more »

Quentin D63
Quentin D63 (@guest_855358)
22 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Good long read Jonathan, a lot covered. A quick question on the 3 FSS ships. Are they also H&W or another yard and is their build safe?

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_855391)
22 days ago
Reply to  Quentin D63

I would imagine that FSS will end up being built in Spain or at least the first one.a lot of the work was already being done in spain and I don’t think they can afford to delay. So unless there is a very swift buyer for both Belfast and appledore who can guarantee the shipyards being ready the programme would be delayed a lot and I don’t think the RN can take that risk,at lest not for the first one.

But honestly from a review point of view I can see this programme being cut from 3 to 2.

Last edited 22 days ago by Jonathan
Quentin D63
Quentin D63 (@guest_855428)
22 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Thanks for your replies and your posts. I just saw on UK Forces site 17 Sep saying that NI minister has said the FSS is still to be built at H&W despite going into administration. The logic of that doesn’t sound very doable! As you say at least there’s always Spain!

Dern
Dern (@guest_855411)
22 days ago
Reply to  Stephanie

Lol in what world did the UK “struggle” to send a Division to fight GW1! Certainly not the one we are living in.

Meirion X
Meirion X (@guest_855504)
22 days ago
Reply to  Stephanie

The Black hole, that the new Government refers to, maynot be all defence related extra spending, unaccounted?

Last edited 22 days ago by Meirion X
Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_856306)
19 days ago
Reply to  Meirion X

The £20bn black hole is across many areas, some £9bn of it is the pubic sector pay rises recenly granted by their own Administration!

Peter S
Peter S (@guest_855407)
22 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Comprehensive post. One correction- MRSS doesn’t even have a finalized design. H&W were part of the consortium that won the contract to build 3 FSS.

Dern
Dern (@guest_855412)
22 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I’d probably add something to the Army talk; and that’s SFAB, ASOB and SF, and I suspect that the army will continue to put a lot of focus on that area. (Worth also considering the Commando Force in that context, and the decisions the RN will have to make about it).

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_855465)
22 days ago
Reply to  Dern

Yes very good points, I suspect the SFAB will trundle along as it is, it seems highly useful, easy to deploy for stability support, and I’m not sure it really needs anything else as not a brigade you would deploy as a brigade combat team in a really hot war. ASOB and SF I would imagine will just say the same pretty much…the Commando force I think is probably pretty safe in the same way we will probably get 4 MRSS, the northern flank is not going away and is probably more unstable than ever, so I cannot imagine the… Read more »

Dern
Dern (@guest_855511)
22 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

I suspect SFAB will by high on the sacrificial lamb list for the army. While it could trundle along, it’s too easy to make a cut there (or redistribute the head count to other cap badges for those 4X enablers), and as a formation it lacks a clear identity and ethos. It’s easy, and if I was in 11X I’d be getting ready to circle the wagons and fight my corner. ASOB I suspect is high on the list of additional reasources being allocated (no I don’t think we’ll see full unit sized enablers attached to the brigade, but there’s… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_855530)
21 days ago
Reply to  Dern

The arctic role seems to have fallen away in the Corps already, according to some ex RM posters here, with just 45 and some elements from 30,24,29,CHF, CLR,M&AWC, SBS involved. And with the move to smaller raiding units in the LRG concept, as you’ve suggested before, the RM seem caught between two stools as to what they will be going forward. If they were reconstituted back into 3 Cdo Bde and more Viking procured, expanding the ASG and putting Viking directly into the Cdos as was once the plan, they could then do that Lapland role, as the enablers for… Read more »

Dern
Dern (@guest_855694)
21 days ago

The army seems pretty keen to snap up the arctic role as well, it’s already active with 3 Ranger in Sweden and with the EFP Battlegroups in Finland and I expect both roles will grow with time.

I can’t see RM dropping the FCF and LRG concepts any time soon, both where decisions made to adapt to the RN’s disinterest in landing a Brigade in force, and required the aqquisition of some expensive and flashy individual kit. I don’t see them going back on either of those things unless something drastic changes.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_855695)
21 days ago
Reply to  Dern

So, as I suggested several times over the years, perhaps the Army can take the Arctic role. Would take a long time to absorb the RM expertise in this area though?

Dern
Dern (@guest_855708)
21 days ago

Depends on the scale of the take over, getting Arctic expertise into 3 Ranger won’t be hard, a few guys jumping on AWIC, plenty of exercises in Sweden, Alaska, and Canada to go around, small cohort, that will not be too difficult.

Building Arctic Warefare expertise at Brigade or Divisional levels for 4 and 7 Brigades? Considerably harder, just due to the mass and out of area commitments.

Jonathan
Jonathan (@guest_855551)
21 days ago
Reply to  Dern

Good point about the SFAB, if you wanted to make a head count raid to support core capabilities these would be the battalions to go for….it would be worth doing if they could use the headcount and budget to make 4th light brigade into something that can actually be deployed as a brigade combat team with all the support elements needed, as well as give 1st brigade some mech infantry ( I know I’m not giving up on the fact I think it’s stupid not having a couple of infantry battalions in 1st brigade). good point on the northern flank..rapid… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_855696)
21 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Issue is, that the SFAB Battalions have already been much reduced in size. The exact composition/ORBAT I’m not aware of, and neither is Dern I recall.
They are not the full fat 600 headcount LI Battalions that together could find some thousands to go into the CSS area.

Dern
Dern (@guest_855704)
21 days ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Yes, the only thing I could see is it being a problem of not a huge amount of headcount being released (the Irish Guards won’t go, so that means only 3 small infantry Battalions being released). As for 1 Armoured Infantry and 4 Light Mechanised Brigade, I threw this up for Daniele the other day (remove the spaces to access the link: https ://i.imgur. com/k7IE359. jpeg ). Adding Infantry to 1 DSR, or more realistically splitting 1 DSR into an Armoured Brigade and a Fires/Strike Brigade wouldn’t actually require more infantry (a slightly bigger boxer purchase), but it would require… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli (@guest_855711)
21 days ago
Reply to  Dern

Viking?

Dern
Dern (@guest_855713)
21 days ago

An option for sure.

Lonpfrb
Lonpfrb (@guest_856156)
19 days ago
Reply to  Dern

Given that Sweden and Finland are now NATO members, and have deep experience with FIWAF and the open landscapes of Lapland, why is that an RM responsibility?

Dern
Dern (@guest_856220)
19 days ago
Reply to  Lonpfrb

Given that Norway was a NATO member and had deep experience with Mountain and Arctic Warfare in the Fjords of Narvik, why was that a RM responsibility?

If you can’t grasp the concepts of collective defence and why we’d send reinforcements to help our NATO allies instead of leaving them to fend for themselves then I’m not sure I can help you.

Lonpfrb
Lonpfrb (@guest_856557)
18 days ago
Reply to  Dern

For Norway, there’s some history and relationship to encourage RM engagement. Presumably Norway wishes it to continue as they agreed to a training base recently.

For the newer NATO members who already have the relevant skills but no experience of Advanced Forward Presence it would be respectful to offer support and see what is welcomed. Whilst it may be consistent with their bilateral agreements with UK and with NATO membership, this is something that they fully expected to do themselves as neutral sovereign nations.

Dern
Dern (@guest_856749)
17 days ago
Reply to  Lonpfrb

Okay wow, this is silly, and makes it clear you actually don’t understand mutual assistance pacts. For starters Sweden and Finland are not Neutral. They’re in NATO, a multilateral alliance based around the concept of mutual defence. Which means that if Norway gets attacked, we go to their aid, as will Sweden and Finland. Which in turn means that any action in Norway will result in actions in Finland and Sweden. They also BY BEING NEUTRAL DID NOT EXPECT TO HAVE TO FIGHT EITHER NATO NOR RUSSIA/THE USSR. When the possibility of actually having to deal with a Russian invasion… Read more »

Last edited 17 days ago by Dern
Barry Curtis
Barry Curtis (@guest_855046)
23 days ago

The season of yet another defence review has arrived, with the same decision making principles in place that will be more fudge than positive future direction. No government wants to be seen as seeking financial reductions that goes against the grain. The trouble is all the time political statesmanship is marketed abroad via signing of defence treaties, all it does is put pressure on the armed forces to fulfill the straitjacketed commitments afterwards. Also with the NHS already highlighted by the new government to be restructured before having increased funding, these principles will also apply to the MOD who will… Read more »

Luke Rogers
Luke Rogers (@guest_855050)
23 days ago

You’ve fallen into a bit of fake news here. Train drivers have not received an “above inflation pay rise”. They have been offered a below inflation pay rise (since 2019) that is being voted on to see if it’s accepted. They also work for private companies so it has nothing to do with the government or the state coffers. The whole thing was another case of “Grant Schapps” getting involved where he wasn’t needed or wanted.

Mr J Bell
Mr J Bell (@guest_855082)
23 days ago

what a worrying mess. Another way to look at the black hole is to ignore it, put the money on the national debt until such time as the economy can grow and then pay off the deficit. We are needing to order items that are long lead time issues such as replacement artillery, ground based air defence systems and more aircraft and smart munitions as well as frigates and auxiliary ships. The threats to our national interest from peer enemies is such that anything other than meeting these threats is tantamount to treason. The Tories got us into this mess,… Read more »

Quentin D63
Quentin D63 (@guest_855092)
23 days ago

Hopefully these cuts won’t be too short-sighted as there is a bloody war going on over the Eastern fence! Why can’t there even be some incremental additions for a change? As the Navy is important for patrolling and keeping the oceans and international trade routes open why not buy a few more T31s while it’s inbuild, cheap, useful and multi-purpose? Could be used as a coastal frigate, support the LRGs, and Falklands and Indo Pacific patrols in tandem with B2 Rivers. What’s happening to Sky Sabre and building up the UK’s GBAD network to protect everything under it? I’ll stop… Read more »

Last edited 23 days ago by Quentin D63
Grant
Grant (@guest_855340)
22 days ago

The thing is, investment in our military (indeed like investing in education and indeed the NHS) is an investment: this contrasts to social welfare and pension (£350bn and increasing at 8% a year) which has no real economic value: not arguing for or against that figure, but it clearly should be a different category of spending. We are starting to see the economic value for AUKUS, with proposed expansion at Barrow. We are seeing the economic value of T26 and T31. GCAP will be the same: Britain has the 3rd largest aerospace industry despite Government investment levels which are minuscule… Read more »

Lonpfrb
Lonpfrb (@guest_856161)
19 days ago
Reply to  Grant

GCHQ is the organisation that truly understands Cybersecurity and its essential to have a network of Cybersecurity specialists in the rest of UK forces and government to ensure that best practices are deployed and kept relevant.

IT Change is essential to enable Change and so Cybersecurity must be embedded in all improvements. Its not cheap to be competent (arms race) but the alternative is much more expensive in blood and treasure.

Grant
Grant (@guest_856695)
17 days ago
Reply to  Lonpfrb

I have no doubt that it’s expensive and needs investment. But that investment is going to largely very clever (And expensive) people. Where as ships and planes are very clever people plus lots of actual engineering. I worry that MOD will be being price gauged by large IT companies, which get a lot less scrutiny than British Aerospace…..

Lonpfrb
Lonpfrb (@guest_857229)
15 days ago
Reply to  Grant

As an engineer I support scepticism but after 30 years in big IT I can confirm that governance and oversight are business as usual in big programmes. Not always the right SWOT, but some…

Corrupt organisations can mess up hugely as we saw with Horizon and not all suppliers are strong enough to resist. You get what you pay for.

Ken
Ken (@guest_855501)
22 days ago

It does make you wonder what we spend our not insignificant defence budget on. granted we lose about a good percentage of it to screw ups in the project/procurement process maybe that should be investigated

Jon
Jon (@guest_856212)
19 days ago
Reply to  Ken

You can always read the reports. I suggest you start with the relatively accessible “Defence in Numbers 2023” before hitting the MOD Equipment Plan (especially the separate numeric appendices) then “MOD Departmental resources: 2023” and finally the MOD Annual Report and Accounts 2023/24, where you will learn that “people are our most important asset” before ignoring them on the balance sheet, so be prepared to throw up a few times at the platitudes (the numeric tables are not very useful and, unlike with the equipment plan, can’t be used to skip most of the main report). For an idea for… Read more »

Last edited 19 days ago by Jon
Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_856308)
19 days ago
Reply to  Ken

There was a UKDJ article detailing this a few months ago.

Mike Emmett
Mike Emmett (@guest_855528)
21 days ago

Nearly every European Nation is increasing their defence spending and gearing up for a possible conflict and here we have a Labour government who stated before the Election they would increase ours only now to talking about defence cuts. We cannot trust this government when it comes to our Nations Defences.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_856033)
20 days ago

The writer of this piece warns of the folly of returning to ‘no forces east of Suez’ but do we really have much that is east of Suez? Part use of a local naval base in Oman and a Ghurka battalion in Nepal (paid for by the Sultan anyway). An admin team at Diego Garcia. What else?

Dern
Dern (@guest_856111)
19 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

A base in Singapore, two forward deployed OPVs?

Jon
Jon (@guest_856204)
19 days ago
Reply to  Dern

Several ships in the Gulf, a base in Bahrain, a base in Brunei, something in Qatar, a commitment to basing subs in Australia.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_856309)
19 days ago
Reply to  Dern

Thanks. Where are the OPVs? In total, not a great amount, arguably.

Dern
Dern (@guest_856418)
19 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Um, forgive the pun but it’s a floating assignment. XD

Dern
Dern (@guest_857011)
17 days ago
Reply to  Dern

test

George
George (@guest_857055)
16 days ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Hopefully a presence in Australia arising from our increasingly important AUKUS involvement.

Jay
Jay (@guest_856325)
19 days ago

Cuts… in this climate. We deserve what’s coming.

At this point, we might as well just accept that we’re now a local-defence force and stop pretending to be a world player.

Last edited 19 days ago by Jay
George
George (@guest_856911)
17 days ago

Just the usual incompetent government plebs, mismanaging the coffers. and underfunding defence. Two tier Keir and his marxists being worse than the previous shower. I wonder how much tax payers money they will be lavishing on illegal immigrant invaders and bigamist social security scrounging aliens. All in the name of diversity.

Chrislondon
Chrislondon (@guest_857027)
16 days ago
Reply to  George

Hello George,

Before anyone wastes time on your extreme right ranting may I ask a question?

Over the last year you have made three calls for a military coup if Labour win the election. The have won. Do you still want a military coup?

George
George (@guest_857051)
16 days ago
Reply to  Chrislondon

Of course you may ask a question but I will not acknowledge your misguided flights of fancy. I know how much your marxists comrades like violent revolution but this is Great Britain. We do things differently. Labour did not win the election on merit, they benefitted from the protest vote. The incompetent Tories threw away a huge majority and overwhelming public support by failing to implement BREXIT, secure our borders and other things. I have faith in the usually silent British people to wake up and do what is necessary. Farage and REFORM seem to be on the right track… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_857958)
13 days ago
Reply to  George

Brexit did what it needed to do; break the relationship with the EU as a block so that English identity was able to re-establish itself within the UK. English identity crystallised during the Plantagenet period, the key period of formation which saw our first parliament and English supplanting French as the language of the English Courts. It is no accident that Keir Starmer is a KC who specialised in human rights. In a tangible way the labour government is a direct link to that high point of England and the core values of English culture.

George
George (@guest_858018)
12 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

“In a tangible way the labour government is a direct link to that high point of England and the core values of English culture.” Jeez you certainly have a strange sense of identity. I strongly disagree considering the two tier nature of labours policing policies and large immigrant votership. I’ll tell you what is tangible. Immigrant rioters openly supporting terrorists receive police protection. While indigenous little old ladies peacefully protesting rape gangs and double standards, are bullied and arrested. Labour couldn’t be more anti-British if they tried. Labour created the current crisis by opening the floodgates to rub the rights… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_858055)
12 days ago
Reply to  George

Your reference to labour’s policing policies is completely misplaced. The police enforce the laws passed by parliament, which for the last decade or more has been dominated by a conservative government. Notwithstanding occasional allegations of institutional racism and misogyny I believe the police do their job well and impartially. Labour did not ‘open the floodgates’; Brexit did that, together with war and famine in Africa and the Middle East (fomented by Iran and Russia) and climate change. In leaving the EU we surrendered a legal right to return illegal immigrants crossing the channel to France. Brexit also and effectively expelled… Read more »

Stephanie
Stephanie (@guest_858662)
10 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

I think you will find Tony Blair open the immigration flood gates.

Your whole comment is just fiction.

What drugs are you on? When they said don’t drink the kool aid they meant it.

Last edited 10 days ago by Stephanie
Paul.P
Paul.P (@guest_858678)
10 days ago
Reply to  Stephanie

What drugs am I on? Well, just reading the runes; In the elections result I see a country that has decided to face up to itself and work its way out of factionalism and chaos and knock itself into shape. Pragmatic decisions, effort, mutual respect and some sacrifice are the recipe.

Stephanie
Stephanie (@guest_858661)
10 days ago
Reply to  Paul.P

It is no accident that Keir Starmer is a KC who specialised in human rights. In a tangible way the labour government is a direct link to that high point of England  I can guarantee that nobody accidently becomes a barrister. “I have stepped on a Lego brick and hey presto I have passed my bar exams!’ Starmer is a socialist. His mine polluted by his socialist parents. He doesn’t care about human rights. It is all about virtue signalling. Labour is a middle class party and always has been a middle class party. The working class was a source… Read more »

Tom
Tom (@guest_857489)
14 days ago

Even for a ‘peace time military’, the armed forces are way below what they should be, especially in manpower/womanpower. Whatever ‘spews’ from any politicians gob, the Army especially, are woefully short of personnel.

AlexS
AlexS (@guest_857965)
13 days ago

Foreign Office has splashed over £4 billion on support for refugees and asylum seekers.

Jon
Jon (@guest_858182)
12 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

That’s really the Home Office spending the FCDO’s budget.

Bill Glew
Bill Glew (@guest_858149)
12 days ago

We need to accept that we are a small island not some sort of world power. We will always have a place on the World stage as long as we are a nuclear power. However, we need to focus our conventional warfare forces on the defence of the UK – not spending money playing games with other countries all over the world. We do not need warships in the Pacific or the Caribbean. We do not need Royal Marines trained to fight in Arctic regions. We do not need 2 parachute display teams. We do not need the Red Arrows… Read more »

Jon
Jon (@guest_858184)
12 days ago
Reply to  Bill Glew

Fighting our wars as far away from the UK as possible is putting the UK first. Waiting until war comes to the British Isles isn’t.

Steve R
Steve R (@guest_860364)
4 days ago
Reply to  Bill Glew

Ever heard of the term “fight over there so we don’t have to fight over here”?

Harry Palmer
Harry Palmer (@guest_858308)
11 days ago

I do not expect to see any major cuts in the defence review. I do suspect however, that the Government is rolling the pitch to kick the 2.5% of GDP can even further down the road.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore (@guest_860261)
4 days ago
Reply to  Harry Palmer

I can see the Government not signing up to buying the full amount of Boxers the army requires. ie about 1, 200 or so. (Only 623 ordered so far).
That would be a cut.

Rob
Rob (@guest_858538)
10 days ago

Lots of money for mass immigration though. Maybe we can shake those Tory voting pensioners down again for a few bob, after all, they are all very very wealthy right??

Rob
Rob (@guest_858539)
10 days ago

Think wisely – the American’s are used to paying the lion’s share of the European defence bill, but are not going to be carrying the UK and Europe as much as they used to – and it’s mostly to do with China that now has a bigger navy than the US Navy. Trump is another question mark. He has already said America is not carrying the brunt of NATO funding anymore if everyone doesn’t step up and yes that means less money for EU style v. generous social welfare programmes.

Jonno
Jonno (@guest_859813)
6 days ago

Defence needs a far higher priority in Government thinking. Sadly the opposite is now almost certainly the case. Starmer’s Labour sees UK as the new Euro-Cuba. Their not admitting this but its clear from all their talk and actions. No longer heirs to Blair but Corbynistas. We have been had. See Diego Garcia give away if in doubt.

Rob
Rob (@guest_859887)
6 days ago

I can’t see any cuts happening, what I shall bid on though, are more taxes to pay for more kit

Steve R
Steve R (@guest_860320)
4 days ago

Bugger me, this is depressing!

Mike Emmett
Mike Emmett (@guest_860374)
4 days ago

The first duty of any British Government is to protect the country and its people, unfortunately we now have a government who prefers appeasement and defence cuts, they cannot even stop our shores being invaded on a daily basis. Our enemy is now within and gradually taking over the country without firing a shot.

RB
RB (@guest_860930)
2 days ago

I’ve certainly become far less optimistic on the outcome of SDR2025 than I was three months ago. Starmer has shown no interest in the defence and national security of the UK. With unfunded largesse being showered on public sector workers and the unions, and tax raises being watered down, it seems increasingly likely that the Labour government will fall back on the that old faithful budgetary “economy” of defence cuts. By including aid to the Ukraine in the UK’s core defence budget, they can cut the MOD’s expected funding by £4 bn in 2025/26 and still remain at “around” 2.0%… Read more »

Mike Emmett
Mike Emmett (@guest_861854)
3 minutes ago

Unfortunately we now have a left leaning Labour government who will no doubt place Defence spending as a low priority. When most of our partners are increasing their defences we are struggling not only to maintain what we have but to show not only our allies but our enemies that we are a serious global player. Yes we are a nuclear power that power is a doomsday weapon that hopefully will never be used but does its job of being a deterrent, our other capabilities are very limited and there is no doubt we would struggle in a conventional battle… Read more »