When talking about warships, the image that comes to most people minds are the battleships of the past with their huge 12 inch guns but today there’s far more to it.
Indeed, watching old black and white footage of these ships as they fire a full broadside at an unseen enemy can give you a feeling of awe and wonder, imagining who would be foolish enough to stand up to such destructive power. HMS Dreadnought for example had five twin BL 12 inch Mark X guns and 27 single 12 PDR 18 CWT Mark 1 guns as well as 5 18 inch torpedo tubes.
Taking this image people then compare modern day Royal Navy surface combatants and some quickly come to the conclusion that they are under armed. Take the type 45 Daring Class Destroyer for example, with its 4.5 inch mark 8 naval gun, two Oerlikon 30mm guns and two Phalanx CIWS plus the Sea Viper Missile System and on the surface there is no comparison. When people make these basic comparisons however, they are missing at least two major chunks of a modern warship armoury.
The first more obvious one is a ships radar and sensor suite. Information and intelligence gathering is so essential in modern effect based warfare that being able to detect and outmaneuver your opponent before he can do the same to you normally means you have already won an engagement before any shots or missiles have been fired.
This is regardless of how many actual weapons systems a ship has and is one of the reasons (the other being offensive naval air power) why the huge and impressive battleships of the Dreadnought era are hopelessly out matched by a relatively small Type 23 Frigate who can detect, outmaneuver and engage such a large and ponderous target before it could ever hope to respond.
The other part of a modern warships armoury is its passive defence or soft kill systems. The Royal Navy deploys on its ships a number of passive defence systems.
- The Airbone SYS IDS300 decoy which is a ship-deployed, passive radio frequency (RF) anti-missile countermeasure, designed to defeat even the most up-to-date developments in anti-ship RF missile seekers.
- The radar-band electronic support measures (RESM) system supplied by Thales sensors which allows the ship to detect, intercept, identify, locate, record, and/or analyze sources of radiated electromagnetic energy for the purposes of immediate threat recognition (an example of this would be detecting an active radar lock of an anti-ship missile).
- The Outfit DLH active Naval off board decoy system supplied by BAE Systems, which includes the Siren decoy, this decoy system is an expendable radiating decoy against radar guided missiles.
- The Seagnat Control System which is a six launcher decoy system that can be loaded with different rounds, depending on the threat.
- And the Hammerhead CESM (communications electronic support measures) system which replaced the obsolete lighthouse CESM system on all Royal Navy ships.
These systems are normally completely ignored by people when comparing the paper statistics of surface combatants and I have been in many a discussion where they have been dismissed with a wave of a hand.
It is my personal belief that these systems are in fact more important than CWIS which is a last line defence system. They fit perfectly within the effect based warfare doctrine and help disrupt the other essential component of Naval warfare which is information gathering by the weapon systems of you opponent.
All modern long/medium range offensive Naval weapons systems are “smart”, in that they use some form of radar/ heat seeker or the parent ships radar to lock on and engage their target. Now soft kill systems prevent these from finding their target by confusing these weapon systems, thereby rendering the vessel difficult to target and engage. The effect gives the vessel a distinct advantage in a Naval engagement and this advantage can then be exploited and gives you the upper hand in information and intelligence battle.
This ability to disrupt an opponent’s ability to actively engage you is a hugely important capability in which the Royal Navy puts a heavy emphasis on. The reason these and a ships sensor suite are not taken into consideration by the casual observer is because of a failure of that person to realise that not all weapons systems actually fire anything, and that modern warfare is in some ways a lot more complex than it used to be, when a ship on ship engagement was decided purely on the size and number of its guns and the competence and bravery of its crew. Those days are gone for ever.
So in conclusion when looking at a modern Royal Navy warship and its capabilities, though it’s easy to dismiss certain aspects of its armoury, in doing so it’s easy to miscalculate the vessel’s full spectrum of capabilities when concentrating on the more “sexy” aspects of the ship, like the number of guns and missiles it has.
Surely if a pair of combatants are similarly capable and equipped with similarly intelligent systems – able to thwart and counterattack each other’s most sophisticated missiles… … then surely the winner will be the one who can deliver sufficient dumb artillery on to the opposing vessel? The concept described in the article is surely only applicable to conflicts between non-peer combatants? NATO may still be technologically superior and better trained but this gap is surely closing and it would be blindingly arrogant, if not hubristic, to develop one’s strategies on the assumption that NATO, the UK, is technologically and strategically… Read more »
Slightly correct, more like spamming your enemy with an overwhelming amount of smart missiles to deplete or overwhelm their defenses and countermeasures. This is why the US is putting anti-air and anti-ship missiles on anything that floats as well as trying very hard to keep their cruisers well past there sell by date. You just cant beat a ship that can sling 122 missiles.
Then we can’t beat a ship……
So why do we not pair every T45 etc. with a barge carrying a couple of MLRS?
I know this is very old but BAE (I think) have built entirely enclosed VLS system into a standard box.
You can dump one on any ship and use it as a magazine.
But one issue with your barge idea is, well, those barges do need gas turbines and the ability to manoeuvre hard and keep up at 30+ knots.
And not occlude their host ships radar.
The author writes that the modern person forgets a couple of things when comparing modem day ships with Dreadnoughts of old these being Radar and Soft kill systems. But the fact remains for the Dreadnought era, Radar did not exist, rather Admirals relied on crows nests and forward deployed assets in which to get a lay of the land (in this case sea) As for soft kill systems, the ships of old used tiger stripes, smoke, torpedo nets , In fact the Destroyer first came into service as the Torpedo boat destroyer in which to ward off the cruise missile… Read more »
the reality is that if the old ship was able to get a broadside off, it would be game over. No counter measures have yet to be designed that can deal with a canon shell.
The main advantage modern ships have is the ability to target and attack the older ship accurately and beyond visual range.
I wonder if there is an argument to reintroduce the big guns into modern ships, to get through the counter missile systems.
Modern radar and targeting systems mixed with a range of 12 inch guns would be very effective even now.
Modern day 12 inch guns are rail guns. Once they come in to play, the game completely changes. Good luck trying to intercept a solid metal projectile been fired from 160KMs at mach 7, with the possibility of firing multiple, if not dozens of rounds a minute.
“the reality is that if the old ship was able to get a broadside off, it would be game over” This statement is not true. 12 inch guns were incredible inaccurate when fired at range. The only time it was game over was if you were within a couple miles of the ship. If destroyers back then could out maneuver battleship fire at range, imagine what a modern day frigate could do.
Fair point, but ultimately my point remains, a 12 inch gun fired with modern shells and fire control / radar would be lethal, no amount of counter measures could stop it.
We are reaching a point where missiles are redundant, because the counter missiles / soft kills systems are so effective, so the only way to kill a ship is either torpedo or shells (ok rail gun one day, but not any time soon).
I have never understood why so little effort has been put into long range torpedos, these seem the perfect solution right now.
12 inch guns were required in those days because ships were made to take a beating, they were covered in crazy amounts of armor and thick metal. Nowadays a 5inch gun does just a much damage as a 12inch in those days due to how modern ships are made, light and maneuverable.
While the big guns had limitations in their accuracy at long range, the inaccuracy was more related to the range finders and plotting tables used to predict where the guns needed to be aimed, rather than the guns themselves. If fitted with modern radar and plotting computers, a C20th battleship should be able to straddle the target every time, even at long range.
There is no soft-kill defensive system that can defeat a shell
That’s why ships usually don’t fight at gun range.
Talking of Rail Guns whatever happened to the one DERA were testing at Eskmeals, or was it Pendine?
Swept under the carpet and forgotten about probably.
Found these on Twitter, enjoy:
https://twitter.com/D__Mitch/status/922866386967416832
https://twitter.com/D__Mitch/status/922935027696128005
Certainly an interesting article and I agree that soft kill does have its place. However there is no escaping the fact that the modern RN surface fleet is woefully underarmed when compared to our peers. It’s called ‘fitted for but not with’ for a reason…. no money!
Plenty of money…. no will to spend it.
As the Tories said, there are no votes in defence.
Mod have money. It’s used up supporting the UK arms industry charging ruinous prices and also replacing the Vanguard subs. Mod waste and sheer incompetence no doubt account for another vast chunk.
The latest generation of hypersonic ASMs may be a different kettle of fish. They have their own anti counter measures abilities. But modern kit doesn’t always work as planned or expected. The USS Starks systems didn’t register the threat of an approaching exocet misslie. SAM/anti missile missiles can shoot down ASMs or incoming shells but there’s not a huge number in the magazine to defeat a sustained attack & all are expensive. Then there’s battle damage-the equipment or weaponry may not function. Anything that can defeat a threat is valuable. Leaving kit uninstalled is reckless endangerment of the Crew &… Read more »
Lots of points to discuss to please bare with me, In the RN a modern naval gun such as 4.5 Mk8 Mod 1, primary role is Naval Gunfire Support (NGS) for forces ashore. Its secondary role is Anti Surface Warfare (ASuW). (don’t even bother with anti air …that capability was removed and was no longer supported many decades ago.) Modern rates of fire at around 20 rnds/min are far higher than the old big 12 inch guns of possibly 2 rounds per min. Modern digital gunnery control systems are better than the old mechanical computers of the past but the… Read more »
Thanks for that most interesting.
Interesting debate about the importance of Soft Weapons and ESM. But why drag the Old Battleships into it ? There is absolutely no comparison possible. We have all seen the effects of modern SSM or ASM on old warships used as Targets, but not against the old fashioned heavily armoured ships.
Be it Harpoon, Exocet or even a Tomahawk I doubt they would do much damage to 12” of armour. Likewise I doubt that an old Battleship would ever manage to close on a modern Warship.
So not a good comparison.
You can’t really compare a modern warship vs a battleship, they were designed to survive in different worlds. The vast majority of modern western frigates and destroyers don’t actually have the firepower on board to mission kill a battleship (especially a WW2 example) . Remember these thing were designed to be resistant to significant numbers of hits from 2000-2500pound AP/HE shells. Western Heavy weight anti ship missile design focus was on facing armour up to the level of a light cruiser, battle ships were not in the mix. But a ww2 battleship won’t live in a space occupied by attack… Read more »
The greatest range at which one ship hit another was 26,000 yards; this is negligible in missile terms. The number of hits at normal ranges was in the low single-figure percentages. A battleship turret system weighed a couple of thousand tons and took scores of men to operate it, while a missile system probably comes in at fifty tons and a handful of men. A missile warhead has a high likelihood of hitting, and with an effect at least as great as at twelve-inch shell. The greatest battleship, the Yamato, weighed in at fifteen times the displacement of a modern… Read more »
This is getting worse ! A nuclear armed anything will sink any ship everbuilt. Or at least leave it an irradiated hulk.
The UK doesn’t have any sub strategic weapons these days, so where would this nuclear Tomahawk appear from ? And for that matter where would any Tomahawk come from, no UK surface ships have ever carried one.
In fact even theHarpoon missiles are due out of service soon unless we buy some more.
About the only conventional Naval missiles that would damage a Battleship are the larger Russian ones designed to take out US Carriers.
The limit on visual/radar range applies to both missiles and shells, if you don’t know where a target is you can’t just shoot a missile and hope it finds it, you need to give a certain amount of targeting information prior to launch. Hyper sonic missiles are interesting, but all they do is reduce the reaction timing, as long as you can spot it in time to fire, then the defensive missile can track it no matter how fast the offensive one is going, since all the speed is doing is making the missile get into range of the defensive… Read more »
Interesting article, with some interesting replies. Thankyou, that was a good read.
Interesting there does seem to be an over estimation on the destructive power of modern against something that was simply designed to take whatever kinetic and explosive energy you could throw at it and keep going. I’m sure a a Battleship would have no chance of escaping weapons fire from a type 23. But the battleship would very likely still be mission capable after a type 23 had expended every munition it had on board. The most heavily armoured ship harpoon was designed to kill was a light cruise with around 3inchs of belt and 1-2 inch decks (remember the… Read more »
[…] allow forces to train in the use of ‘soft-kill countermeasures‘ which are used to protect ships from incoming […]
Strange that the article specifically mentions 12″ guns arming battleships. The last 12″ armed Royal Navy battleships were the Colossus class ships of 1910. The last Royal Navy battleship (HMS Vanguard) was armed with a 4 x 2 BL15/42 guns which were 15″ calibre. Also worth noting that HMS Warspite scored what was probably the longest range hit on another ship with one of these weapons, hitting the Italian battleship Giulio Cesare at a range of 24.1Km (26,400 yards) at the battle of Calabria. All that being said, “big gun” battleships were obsolete from the moment a Fairy Swordfish jammed… Read more »