Eurofighter CEO Volker Paltzo confirmed that Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH has jointly submitted with Airbus Defence & Space their response to the German Government for the replacement of their Tornado fleet, arguing that Eurofighter is the perfect choice for Germany.
Volker Paltzo said:
“I am confident that Eurofighter Typhoon can provide a cost effective and attractive solution for Germany, which will deliver every capability and perform every mission the German Air Force needs.
Eurofighter Typhoon is the logical choice for Germany: As well as providing all the capabilities the German Air Force needs, it also guarantees German sovereignty across many aspects, such as mission and maintenance data (there are no black boxes on Typhoon). It is also the least risk solution: Germany knows, uses and understands our aircraft.”
Looking to the future, the Eurofighter CEO also positioned Eurofighter as the natural bridge for any future European fighter programme.
“Eurofighter will remain the dominant fighter aircraft in Europe for the next thirty to forty years. The technologies we are developing for Eurofighter today will go hand in hand with those technologies we expect to see on a future European fighter programme – manned or unmanned.
Eurofighter provides the best route to develop the technologies that will be incorporated onto a future European combat air system, and will be the natural partner to such an asset in the decades to follow its entry into service.”
Volker Paltzo also confirmed the consortium’s confidence in securing additional sales of the Eurofighter at home and abroad:
“Looking to the future, Eurofighter partner companies and their national governments are actively involved in campaigns across Europe involving in excess of 300 more potential aircraft. I want to underscore that every Euro spent on Eurofighter within Europe stays in Europe. It is reinvested in the European economy, in European jobs, and in European communities. So, if Europe wants a strong defence and a strong industry to deliver it, then Eurofighter is the best choice for Europe.”
In conclusion, Paltzo said:
“Eurofighter is the right choice for Germany, the right choice for Europe, and the natural partner for – and stepping stone to – a European FCAS programme. We can be proud of what Europe has, can and will achieve in the future.”
Recently Dirk Hoke, Chief Executive Officer of Airbus Defence and Space, has warned the German government against the purchase of the F-35.
“As soon as Germany becomes an F-35 member nation, cooperation on all combat aircraft issues with France will die,” Hoke said in an interview with Welt Am Sonntag which can be found here.
The local news site says that the Bundeswehr is looking for a successor model for the Tornado fighter-bomber. One candidate is the F-35 but “that does not suit the CEO of the Airbus armaments division”.
Airbus manager Hoke sees a historic opportunity in the competition with France on the fighter jet. “Europe needs to define its sovereignty more clearly, and to clearly state that we need to maintain independence in defence and space” he said.
The German Air Force recently issued a formal request for information about the F-35, as well as three other jets with the F-35 being their ‘preference’. The other jets are the F-15 and F/A-18E/F.
Germany is replacing its 85 Tornado jets, which will go out of service around 2030.
The F-35 is the “preferred” choice the list of aircraft the Luftwaffe is looking at according to a “senior service official” speaking anonymously under the Chatham House Rule, who told Jane’s 360:
“The Tornado replacement needs to be fifth-generation aircraft that can be detected as late as possible, if at all. It must be able to identify targets from a long way off and to target them as soon as possible.
The German Ministry of Defence is looking at several aircraft today, including the F-35 – it is commercially available already, has been ordered by many nations and is being introduced into service today, and has most of the capabilities required.”
Typhoon is the only sensible solution for Germany, nothing else makes any sense whatsoever.
As for a Franco German 5th Gen fighter, don’t make me laugh …. Do they realise it can’t be paid with buttons!
Without the UK participating, no chance it will ever be more than a paper airplane.
Why is the Typhoon more sensible than the F-35?
The F-35 is designed to attack the most sophisticated air defence systems. Which is the Tornado replacement requirement. Not to go dog fighting with Migs at 50 thousand feet.
The Typhoon can do everything the Tornado could do AND dogfight Migs at 50 thousand feet.
..and the Typhoon is a better fighter than the F35.
drunk
I have to say that looking at the specs of each should the F35 ever lose its stealth advantage and that is a real possibility over next 15 years or so with radar developments it would be a generally far less impressive aircraft than the Typhoon especially the B version. Its complex electronics would be the only thing ahead of the Typoon in that scenario even in the attack role.
Germany has committed to the NATO nuclear weapons sharing project, whereby they have the capability to deliver American nuclear weapons, currently by Tornado bombers. To maintain this commitment, any replacement aircraft will need to be nuclear capable, which without a lot of extra development work the Typhoon is not.
What weapons are we talking about?
The B61.
Thx. I didn’t know that was integrated onto Tornado. Interesting politics at play. The Germans can either default from the US weapons sharing program or upset the French.
In a sense our Tornado GR4s are still Nuclear capable as the wiring is still in place for the weapon arming control unit etc. On the face of it the Typhoon would be the safer option with the less risks involved as it would be a Tranche 3 development which is already in existence and with Project Centurion progressing will deliver all that Tornado can deliver anyway. However, the F35 is primarily a strike aircraft that can fly in contested airspace whereas the Typhoon is not. In The RAF the F35 will be carrying out reconnaissance, priority strikes, suppression of… Read more »
Project Centurion is a UK programme transferring the RAF’s weapons suite from Tornado to Typhoon. It will in no way do the same for the Luftwaffe. From a military perspective the logical Tornado replacement for Germany would be the F-35C. Politically, that’s unlikely.
That’s all very cold war era. Realistically the Tornado and Typhoon is so far down the pecking order in terms of potential carriers the world will have been whipped out by the time the subs, B52’s, B2’s and any land based systems have run out of their arsenals.
Maybe Airbus could integrate ASMP onto Typhoon. Lol.
This would give Eurofighter about twelve years to develop a next generation, multi role, airframe, whilst still continuing its tranche programmes.
Hopefully it will be able to carry the next gen LRSO currently under development.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Stand_Off_Weapon
If the Germans want to deliver B61 nuclear weapons then they will need to either go F35 or procure a stealth bomber type aircraft.
For all other missions the most sensible choice for the Germans is to go Eurofighter typhoon. Nothing else is politically palatable. It even has the right name EUROfighter
The UK spec of Eurofighter typhoon is far above and beyond the air superiority aircraft initially envisaged and is surely the best multi-role aircraft in the world currently. Soon to be improved further with Meteor, storm shadow, brimstone and AESA radar
Why is eurofighter better than Rafael? Not disagreeing just would like to know why
Rafale
As soon as Brimstone is enabled it will leap frog Rafale in terms air to ground capability. For air to air, is has superior engines, range, radar (based on Captor E) it can carry more ordnance, objectively don’t see where Rafale will be superior.
Plus Typhoon is reputed to have the ability to super-cruise, which reduces vulnerability to hostile ground & air-defences; it also has better supersonic agility than Rafale, giving it the means to change direction quickly – with a better chance of evading a hostile radar-lock.
I don’t think there is a cigarette paper between them. Rafale has an edge I think in some but not all dogfighting scenarios and had an early range advantage in offensive roles I think, albeit with French weapons. But Typhoon has more than caught up in offensive roles and has significant development potential and will have a larger diameter aesa radar than Rafale, Storm Shadow (Scalp), Brimstone, Spear 3 on the horizon. BAE also seems to have made significant strides in reducing maintenance costs. Long range tanks will give Typhoon equal or better strike range than Rafale and the EJ200… Read more »
An increase in range of up to 25% with conformal fuel tanks fitted I believe.
Up to 30% more thrust with the newly developed engines. Thrust vectoring has been available since 2010.
It looks even meaner!
https://theaviationist.com/2014/04/22/eurofighter-typhoon-cft/
India eat your heart out!
It depends on the role you’re talking about. Rafale is marginally better in the AG role, mainly because it has a slightly longer range with its bigger drop tanks. In the AA sphere Typhoon is supreme, with it’s higher T/W ratio, lower wing loading, bigger and better radar, Striker 2, superior “short-range” AAMs, two way datalink for Meteor, supersonic agility etc., etc., etc.
I thought Rafale had a kind of Klingon cloaking device that was pretty good. An alternatve to DASS
Germany wouldn’t need a stealth bomber to deliver tactical nuclear weapons, against massed russian ground forces, which the b61 can be configured as.
Shall we, Shan’t we? lol
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16892/germany-reportedly-favors-typhoon-to-replace-tornado-also-eyeing-f-15-f-a-18
The risk for Typhoon is that the US will offer F-15 at a give away price.
I can’t see the benefit of either having the F15 of F18 over Typhoon. Sure the F15 can carry more but it is a “3rd” generation airframe with 4th/5th gen avionics and is unstealthy as hell (lots of 90 degree reflective surfaces). The F18 isn’t much better and has the similar flight characteristic as the Typhoon. As Germany doesn’t seem to put money in to their military I would say the Typhoon would be their preferred low cost item. Yes the F15 will be dirt cheap but all the spares and training will substantially raise the cost. Whereas the Typhoon… Read more »
Agree. Makes no sense militarily. Just saying I would not put it past the US to give F-15 away to sustain ‘America first’ jobs and keep Germany on the F-35 prospects list.
Particularly since the USAF is considering retiring its entire F15 C/D fleet…
https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2018/04/18/the-air-force-is-still-thinking-about-retiring-the-f-15-and-it-could-happen-sooner-than-you-think/
Cheers
Aren’t the US selling a bunch of new F-15s to KSA?
F-18 “has similar flight characteristics to Typhoon”? Seriously? That’s like saying the Hellcat had similar characteristics to the Spitfire. Ludicrous.
That’s not strictly true the F18 E/F has a slight advantage in low speed manoeuvres, especially for landing on carriers. Whereas the Typhoon is designed primarily for trans and supersonic manoeuvring hence the close coupled canard and delta wing. It has been designed to get to the target as quickly as possible, fire then get out of there ready for the next target. In a real interception role the F18 would generally be on the losing side as seen from numerous Red Flag engagements. The main advantage the US Navy has with the F18 is that it is teamed up… Read more »
Interesting news today (though really a confirmation of what we knew was coming…)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43895648
That’s going to set the cat amongst the pigeons!
A Wakeup call for HMG. Time to stop giving billions away maybe?
Whether the UK joins is dependent on brexit negotiations.
What a load of cobblers.
(Chris H) Andrew R – As I commented on the F-35 Thread what has really hacked me off about this is the French just keep on doing what they always do – they shafted us on Typhoon, the Carriers and now the work on UCAV, Taranis, MAGMA etc. While the Franco German Airbus are peddling a false flag about the Typhoon / F-35 for Germany they are cosying up to the French owned Dassault for an EU fighter, drones and other systems. Mr Juncker will be delighted especially as they seem to have waited until MAGMA was shared. We should… Read more »
Agreed…
I was still at Airbus when this was announced internally. I don’t give it much hope. There’s no real money behind it. Not for the time being anyway… As for Rafale vs Typhoon the former is better in some areas simply because it’s ahead in the development curve. Typhoon is behind, but it’s the bigger more powerful aircraft (11T vs 10T class) so as development progresses and catches up, it will emerge as the superior aircraft. Doesn’t mean the Rafale is no good! USAF General Jumper (ex CAS) flew both Typhoon and F22 and declared them to be as good… Read more »
I don’t understand why Germany would replace a latter 3rd generation jet with a latter 3rd generation jet (f15), albeit massively advanced. Where will f15 be in 30 years’ time?
Can the Germans an French develop a manned 5th Gen fighter … Yes … Can they afford to … No They will end up with a European F35 lookalike, that will be horrendously expensive. Only with UK participation will it be possible, I for one hope we keep out of it and continue to foster our aerospace links with the US, Japan and Turkey among others. Jointly working towards a 6th Gen fighter. I would encourage France and Germany to drop the little Europe mindset and get involved too. Regarding the B61, it would be way cheaper for Germany to… Read more »
Looks like just a part of a full Euro Defense Industry court press to keep out INTERLOPERS!
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-defence-germany-france/japan-seeks-role-in-french-german-marine-surveillance-plane-project-sources-idUSKBN1HW088
Cheers.
It’s not simply a software upgrade to drop nukes, I worked on Tornadoes as an electrician when they had to be nuke strike capable, they have to be completely hardwired with separate failsafe electrical firing systems…..it’s a nightmare. For example every time we raised the windscreen for some simple task, if the nuclear wiring was touched, it required complete and lengthy testing of the firing circuits, not great in the middle of the night after already doing 10hrs. The aircraft maintenance was so much better for us when they stripped it all out in the 90s.
A modern digital system would simplify that sort of thing greatly.
As it’s a replacement for the tornado they should really go with the F 35a, the last paragraph says it all really, the Luftwaffe obviously want the F 35a. In regards to the Rafale/Typhoon replacement, I’m a bit disappointed we are not in that Franco/German project, A European joint fighter program in my eyes represents our best chance at still building fighters in the UK looking at the future. It says looking to replace Rafale/Typhoon in 2035-2040, so it’s only 20 years away so you can expect that being finalised in the the next 5 years, where would our Typhoon… Read more »
Agree.
But what if the UK joins the US in development of the F-22 replacement? 🙂
What I’d like to see is a joint 6th generation aircraft (in whatever design is finalized) collaboration between the U.S. and our closest allies – Britain, Japan, Oz, the Canucks,and possibly Singapore, Norway and Israel to ensure total interoperability and lower costs.
Same for Frigate and other smaller warship development – It’s only a matter of time til it’s us vs the world in both economic and military terms IMHO…
Cheers!
I don’t believe the US would give us the same work-share opportunity as a European project. European combat air development needs us far more than american. I say we join if we can
Probably right Julian but I believe we need to get past petty protectionism and focus on more important issues – such as national and cultural survival… We really need to learn to collaborate nicely and build on the strengths each nation possesses. Arguably British weapons systems and sensor design is world beating while American aircraft engineering such as Lockheed’s Skunk Works are the best at what they do as well as a nod to the Israeli’s for software and Japan for excellent manufacturing, automation, and engineering in their own right. We need to facilitate assigning the lead roles in development… Read more »
Good example and a model to work for. The problem with the “petty protectionist” argument is that it works if other countries are as broad minded and open. Unfortunately, that is rarely the case, particularly with the mid-westerners and senior GOP embedded as Execs in America’s aircraft manufacturing industry. US manufacturing companies are happy to collaborate 1. as long as they lead and dominate 2. all build US based 3. they lead exporty 4. no US capability is left underdeveloped or left behind as a result of some other country having a better idea 5. even if they do, the… Read more »
Paranoid rubbish.
You’re right Julian, not to mention that any good ideas we would bring to the party would have an ITAR classification slapped on it meaning we couldn’t then use it or offer it to any third party without US agreement!
As much as I would like to see it happen I agree with Julian, the US don’t need to make any consessions when it comes to fighter programs, they have a bunch of countries to sell to so would want it built in the US, we could possibly build parts of it like the F 35 but just 15% of an aircraft is not the same as completed one off the production line. BAE systems are the third largest defence company in the world, so we have the workforce, manufacturing capacity and technology to have a fighter built in the… Read more »
Hi S.S., You both make good and rationale points. I’m actually thinking of a time – say – 20 or 30 years along when the rifts we see in the international system have become yawning and unbridgeable chasms with a multipolar world with not just 2 power centers as in the old days but numerous ones each built upon a large anchoring country. An Asian bloc centered on China, a Euro Bloc centered on Germany and Russia (with France as an associate power), A South and Central American bloc centered on Brazil, Argentina, and Chile etc. Most of Sub Saharan… Read more »
Why are we not taking typhoon and creating a “super hornet” version? some additional stealth related features, improved sensor fusion which along with meteor, dass, improved electronic warfare and pirate and “stealth on the missile” will still make it relevant for decades ?
Bang for buck and capability now and on tap.
Seems insane to develop a 5th gen fighter, focus on Taranis and the above.
its true. when you see the americans continue to develop and sell 70s era jet such as f15, f16 and then f/a18, why couldn’t we do this with typhoon? This is why I hope Germany orders it to replace Tornado. Tornado was never developed due to lack of export orders. Typhoon has been more successful so has a much better chance.
Typhoon development is well planned and lot of future capabilities have been investigated and penciled in. Some of these future enhancements have already been mentioned such as the CAPTOR-E, EJ200X, conformal fuel tanks, 3D vectoring exhaust nozzles and LERX. Other airframe developments will look to increase its stealth by lowering its frontal RCS, such as replacing the canards and tail fin. There is still a lot of untapped potential and it will be interesting to see if the RAF will go down this route (funds permitting) as I believe if they do the other operators will surely follow!
Fingers crossed!
I certainly think the LERX MOD is a good idea, requiring limited investment and giving improved high alpha, low speed maneuvering. I am sceptical regarding thrust vectoring though, to get such a system out of the test bay and into the air would require massive investment. I’m among the school of thought that TV leaves you effectively a floundering sitting duck, especially against next gen AAM. As for frontal RCS, its already very small, features such as the off set dish resting position help and extremely well structurally masked engines. I believe even F22 pilots find Typhoon a bit of… Read more »
Yeah right.
Well the German pilots have certainly got cocky about it, can’t obviously vouch for the veracity of their claims.
Totally true. A common mistake of F22 pilots is forgetting that the Typhoon has an awesome IRST that can detect them when they believe they are safe. It is so good as it can guarantee a missile shot – score one for the Typhoon. Still baffles me why the F22 doesn’t still have a IRST!
I think Typhoon is a done deal. The UK side of the deal is Boxer, Rheinmetal for the Chally 2 upgrade and Heckler and Koch for the army rifles. The German half is Typhoon orders, which conveniently ticks the european box for Airbus and future european 5th gen. This is all about jobs in Germany and the UK.
Srsly??
Well; could be my imagination of course but starting with Poseidon P-8 and continuing I am seeing a pattern of more MOD HMG decisiveness in defence procurement. Decisions seem to be taken faster and pragmatic ‘good enough’ solutions seem to be the order of the day provided the price is right and there are UK defence jobs in the deal. I think the message to US companies like Boeing and LM and to German companies is the same; you are welcome in the UK if you create jobs. I think reduction in reliance on BAE is part of this trend… Read more »
Paul I think you’re right. It won’t be the Luftwaffe making the decision anyway… In terms of training, infrastructure and logistics it makes more sense to go Typhoon anyway. To set up a F35 footprint in Germany would be very expensive for a small aircraft order. Buying the airframes would be the cheapest part… (Germans won’t share Italian or U.K. infrastructure). Quite frankly don’t know how Norway is affording it. It’ll take up a large proportion of their procurement budget for years to come…
Ursula von der Leyen met with Gavin Williamson within days of becoming German Defence Minister. I immediately thought there were strategic agreements already in the works whose continuity needed to be confirmed.
Already headline news.
Fears Britain could be frozen out of new European fighter project.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/04/25/fears-britain-could-frozen-new-european-fighter-project/
But announcing the collaboration with Dassault, Mr Hoke said that in the near term decisions had to be made “whether to include or exclude the UK in certain projects depending on how Brexit will progress. If it’s a hard Brexit, it will be a very difficult decision”. The USA and Japan are not in the EU. The UK has or is looking to have collaborative projects with these nations. Turkey is not in the EU and is involved in F35 support. Brexit is being used as a stick to beat the UK with. A hard Brexit should make no difference… Read more »
I would not join. The Franco-Germanic effort but would like to see the UK look towards partnering Japan or Korea for its6th gen aircraft. France has a history of pulling out of defence development projects that is why they operate the Rafale. They took the technology transfer from being involved in Eurofighter and then went away and built their own. Stealing some international sales from Eurofighter. Germany was involved in Eurofighter but when the aircraft was ready for batch production droped it’s orders substantially. Neither are reliable partners I would argue. They will not get a 6th gen or even… Read more »
Spot on Mr Bell. I also see a UK partnership with the likes of S. Korea and Japan as a perfectly valid option for a future 6th gen aircraft.
Particularly since both nations are actively developing a 5th gen aircraft right now.
http://www.atimes.com/can-south-korea-build-fighter-jet/
Cheers!
Evading the moderation police…
https://www.wearethemighty.com/gear-tech/japan-is-developing-a-5th-generation-fighter-of-its-own
Cheers
This project has actually now been scrapped.
Morning all This will be a fight between politics and military requirements, it will be interesting to see who wins. Eurofighter are putting most of their eggs in the “buy Europe” basket. The black box arguement, although sounding great, is myth. All F-35 operators will have sovereign control of their aircraft. With regards to the future U.K. market, SoleSurvivor is quite right – we have the 3rd largest weapons manifacturer in the world and they build some good stuff. U.K. FJ timelines are looking something like this: A2A – Typhoon at least for the next 25 years. That means replacement… Read more »
Agreed Lee, spot on. BAE Systems are already helping the Turks design and build a capable 5th Gen fighter. Back when Typhoon was developed, Germany seriously invested in Defence, today they barely spend 1%, so seriously, how would they pay for a new fighter?? The French, I am sure are quite capable of doing this, but they need serious foreign investment, perhaps they have financial support agreed from one or more Gulf States. As for the UK frozen out, don’t be ridiculous… Its the French and Germans frozen out of the huge multi national F35 project. A real thing, not… Read more »
Its hard to read the intentions of the German Govenrment but whether they go down the Typhoon route or choose the F35 both of these would be of great benefit to us in the UK.Its very important that the Typhoon manufacturing capability is maintained for as long as possible- this gives us the obvious ability to order future Aircraft if necessary – the F35b looks very promising at the moment but should there be any problems and pitfalls we should at least have the option to increase our capability buy other means.
Can someone tell me what the Typhoon can and cannot carry vs the Tornado – hate to see the Tonka go but it’s time – aside from Storm Shadow which I know is being fitted now?
Thanks!
In offensive roles the issue is more about Typhoon catching up with Tornado capability so the latter can leave service viz. Paveway ( was not really there for Libya), Storm Shadow and Brimstone. SS and Brimstone will join Paveway already in service on Typhoon later this year I believe. Both carry Asraam and the Litening targeting pod. Typhoon can carry Amraam and now Meteor. Spear 3 will be fitted to Typhoon ( a mini cruise missile with a range of about 8o miles – kind of a longer range powered networkable SDB) – not sure on the timing for this.… Read more »
Thank you for the information Paul!
You are welcome. I should mention the Germans have their own IR missile,( Iris) their own cruise missile, (Taurus)and and an AShM, Kormoran. They are also wired for Maverick I think. So a mix of German and US weapons.
Assuming, of course, that the Luftwaffe can get them into the air…
Cheers.
Relevant to the nuclear delivery capabilities discussion:
https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2018/04/26/modernizing_natos_nuclear_capabilities_113373.html
Cheers
Paul, I think you’ll find RAF has not decided yet between Spear 3 and SDB and the initial plan anyway is for it to go on F35, not Typhoon. F35 already comes integrated with SDB but would need integration programme to be funded for Spear 3. Both carried internally in a four-pack solution in each bomb bay, even on the B version, which is neat.
Ok, thx. I was maybe reading too much into an announcement of funding for Spear 3 development. Lost the link though. I would go for the extra stand off range of Spear 3 but budgets talk I suppose.
From the Eurofighter web site. Volker Palzo. “I cannot disclose the full configuration standard for confidentiality reasons, however, we will see modifications in a number of areas. These include: the sensors (like the E-Scan radar), the DASS, in the targeting and recce pods and on the HMI side (one option could be the Striker 2 helmet). We will see modifications to the basic aircraft in the aerodynamic area, fuel capacity, RCS and IR reduction, propulsion enhancements and general systems. On the weapons side we will see the integration of enhanced guided bomb units, stand-off weapons, small diameter precision bombs and… Read more »
I’d pick the Typhoon….
They already operate it after all!
Posting a couple of relevant articles -apologies if they have already been added.
https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2018/04/26/lockheed-tries-to-steer-clear-of-german-f-35-politics/
Cheers!
https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2018/04/25/no-stealth-no-problem-eurofighter-makes-its-pitch-against-f-35-in-berlin/
US Senate announce Bill to prevent Turkey receiving F35s it it work also cancel the maintenance contract.
They have decided to produce the Bill due to Turkey buying S400 as well as the human rights, political interference and fighting against the Kurds in Syria. Obviously the US is jumpy about them checking the stealth capabilities against the S400 system and passing the information back to Russia.
So if the contract for maintenance is cancelled who will get it instead, hopefully us as the Primary partner?
Damn spellchecker.
….F35s it will also….
Here is a link to the post.
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/20445/senate-bill-to-ban-f-35-sales-to-turkey-an-unprecedented-attempt-to-check-erdogans-actions
I wonder if we can’t ramp up RAF St Athen has the European F35 maintenance hub? Come on HMG there’s a golden opportunity here.
(Chris H) – I was pretty dumbfounded and annoyed when I saw that Turkey had won the P & W maintenance contract. I mean what jet engine skills do they have? None. They are looking to the Uk for the Typhoon engine for their own new aircraft. Sorry to upset the Europhiles but the Typhoon’s RJ200 may have the ‘eurojet’ label but its a Rolls Royce engine built in Germany. Rolls Royce even owns the MTU engine German partner. The contract should have come to the UK for very simple reasons: * The UK is the only Tier One Partner… Read more »
(Chris H) – Typo correction: EJ200 not RJ200
I touched upon this very point in a thread quite recently.
I doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work it out.
The DOT&E’s full report is lengthy, but very detailed.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2018-02-02/f-35-development-availability-and-reliability-problems-remain-testers-say
I agree, the UK should seize this chance if it’s available, it’s a no-brainer IMO.
Cheers!
I have sent a letter to our SOS Defends. Suggesting furthermore the possibilities of snapping up the maintenance contract and basing it St.Athan. Got the standard auto reply so let’s see what happens?
Bloomin spell check on my Kindle is doing my head in.
Should read: Secretary of State for Defense should investigate the possibilities…..
(Chris H) – I added this to the twin Thread about German F-35 vs Typhoon: Not sure what the future is for a Typhoon replacement other than BAE creating a ‘Typhoon II’ from the good parts of what we already have (Canards, brilliant wing, CAPTOR -E radar, HUD, Sensor suite, magnificent engines) and adding something similar to the rear end of the twin tail of the F-35 that BAE designed and developed. Add in an RR limited vectored thrust system as we have that technology nailed in the F-35B and then build it ourselves. Conformal fuel tanks would add range… Read more »
The UK has already left a lasting imprint on the F35B – its dimensions were dictated by the elevator size of the Invincible Class carriers… Even when it was known that they were being retired… Strange but true…
Cheers!
Absolutely, Typhoon 2 could be awesome. Some of the very best kit seems to be those that are developed, tweaked and redesigned over time. Totally new designs may have some revolutionary capabilities but are too expensive and take years to get them to work properly i.e the F35.
Typhoon 2 would give us a platform as capable as anything else on offer except true stealth. Include the sensor and situational awareness from the F35 into it. Would an F35 twin tail design work aerodynamically on the Typhoon?
TS – yes the Typhoon project has already had an interesting evolutionary path,we did after all build the EAP which apparently saved a lot of work and was of huge benefit to the development of the Typhoon ,we can surely do this again if needs be.
Ummmm, all versions of the F-35 can supercruise.
(Chris H) Ron5 – Actually officially they can’t. They can ‘dash’ @ Mach 1.2 for about 100 miles with a clean wing. Add pylons and it can’t. So technically that is ‘Supercruise’ but what use is it? The Typhoon has a huge Supercrusie range @ Mach 1.5 a speed only exceeded by the F-22 which has a lower range at that speed. The point I was trying to make was that the F-35 is no Typhoon in QRA / Fighter / A2A terms and why we need the Typhoon or a later version of. And to add to that comment… Read more »
Good post. Yes, we are better than that…
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/britain-set-to-launch-combat-air-strategy-defence-secretary-announces
The Typhoon mk2 idea is a very interesting hypothesis guys, will is there unfortunately. As for us taking any F35 maintenance contract, absolutely, we should demand it as as the only tier 1 partner.
At an early stage, we should have insisted on a European assembly line as part of the contractual negotiations.
With regards Turkey, its very concerning that Turkey appears to be tilting away from NATO towards Russia. The boarder between Greece and Turkey could well be the front line of the new Cold War if this carries on un-checked.
The original Eurofighter was designed with v tail. I am not sure why they changed to the single fin? One possible reason is that the materials available to us at the time were not sufficient to lower the RCS compared to a single fin. Aerodynamically speaking the v tail gives better stability at supersonic speeds and more authority when flying at over 70° of bank angle. Both Japan and South Korea are developing a 5th gen fighter. I think Korea’s is more biased to grounds attack whilst Japan is air defence to replace their F15s. I’d much prefer it if… Read more »
Agreed daveyb, a combination of Japan, South Korea, the UK and US could produce a superb fighter. We would be talking an initial combined run of at least 600 airframes. The spread development costs and the combined engineering skills, coupled with a decent initial production run and almost guaranteed access to export markets, would produce an affordable Gen 6 fighter that would absolutely wipe the floor with any opposition. With regard to the Franco German proposal, 30 years ago, the bench mark minimum order for embarking on a new fighter programme was 400 ish airframes. Assuming this holds true today,… Read more »
(Chris H) John Clark – In your first paragraph you highlight precisely the difficulty I was trying to avoid with my UK only ‘Typhoon II’ idea. With 4 disparate countries, 4 different military requirements and political arguments over workshare this would create a very long winded ‘jack of all trades master of none’ that would of necessity be very expensive to bring to production. And how long do you think the design would take let alone development into a prototype. And who would build that prototype? You then throw in the ‘Gen 6’ unknown and I fear we would be… Read more »
Evening Chris, I fully agree with your upgraded Typhoon assessment, an excellent and logical next step in a superb aircrafts development.
My idea is for a next generation machine developed from the late 2020’s.
This sort of word wide pivot is the only way ( in my opinion) that we can remain at the top table of combat aircraft development.
I think that the next gen is already here John,
explains a lot of things… Why both the USN and USAF are planning on cutting back F35 orders, minimal upgrades on the F22, continuation of the Super Hornet line Emphasis on naval construction vs air forces etc. Just adding 10 more years of capability till this is in service.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5251961/SR-72-hypersonic-bomber-made.html
Cheers!
Interesting article here – pro’s and con’s.
http://www.migflug.com/jetflights/p-i-r-a-t-e-versus-raptor.html
I personally think both aircraft will be outmoded far sooner than most would believe with the ever quickening rush of new technology. I give both of them 10 more years as a first line battle asset…
JMHO.
Cheers!
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/f-35-vs-eurofighter-typhoon-which-fighter-will-dominate-15535
Interestingly, on the QE documentary, one of our pilots comments regarding the F35 got me thinking. He was stating how amazing the aircrafts capabilities were. Now I have been reading many an article/ discussion feed on F35 vs other aircraft and there’s a lot of negative views towards F35 and it’s apparent lack of speed, range, weapons load and dogfighting ability. It strikes me as strange that the Americans would have spent the vast sums of money and length of time building an aircraft that seems behind many 4.5 gen fighters. Surely the F35’s actual abilities are secret and all… Read more »
TS – as the saying goes ‘ The proof of the pudding is in the tasting’ – agree its hard to decide what to believe and capability wise yes us mere mortals will probably never get to know what the F35 can and cannot do.At least we are very fortunate (as are the Italians) in that we will be operating both types – will make for some interesting training scenario’s I’m sure.
https://www.themaven.net/warriormaven/air/air-force-preps-block-4-variant-of-the-f-35-new-weapons-tech-for-2020s-QyxrwVC61EK7KB3L74A7BA/
Next variant coming up. I have to question how useful the earlier ones are – the first iterations are not even going to be frontline aircraft without upgrades as I recall. This may encompass several hundred airframes and the cost is supposed to be almost prohibitive to do so.
Cheers
When the Germans ( and the Belgians) order Typhoon to replace their Tornados and F-16s respectively I am looking forward to the BBC documentary, ‘ Eurofighter, from EAP to Typhoon – how British aerospace engineering became the backbone of Europe’s defence’.
(Chris H) Paul P – I sense sarcasm but if not you will be waiting a very long time for the Europhile BBC to give the UK any credit within any European based project despite leading most of them. Like Galileo that the EU have now decided quite arbitrarily shouldn’t include the UK despite us leading in all areas and providing most funding. None of which will be returned of course. Interesting Airbus have taken fright and said they need us!
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/04/26/the-airbus-case-sits-at-the-heart-of-the-brexit-industrial-equation/
Tongue in cheek indeed. I couldn’t resist it. The Airbus Eurofighter bid for the German Tornado replacement could be a turning point. The Germans will have to decide whether they want to be paymaster funding French aerospace leadership on the next generation or whether they want to build on the technology and relationships they have built with the UK. If they shut out the UK what happens to the RR-MTU relationship for example? France will want Snecma engines. And the radar? French or Leonardo? BAE contributed a lot to and must have learned a lot from their F-35 involvement. If… Read more »
(Chris H) Paul P – You are right about the complexities all this EU driven stuff is creating. the French just want to run it all with someone else funding it (ie the Germans). And your last bit just mirrors my thoughts expressed here and elsewhere on a ‘Typhoon II’ although I would see that as a UK only project, given the Airbus / Dassault deal now in place, to be sold to whoever but chiefly as a low cost but higher capability successor to the current Typhoon. Sad thing is we CAN do it but we have been driven… Read more »
(Chris H) Part 2 That the French are leading this removal of the UK from Galileo is something on which I could not possibly comment. But at least we intend to do our own GPS if necessary: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/brexit-galileo-uk-government-europe-eu-gps-satellite-navigation-a8322026.html#r3z-addoor So basically what we see is the Eu being arsewipes (again) and trying to damage a country that has been its second biggest contributor, is determined to honour all agreements and actually contributes the majority of Intell. and security advice for Europe. That we also provide more than anyone else in europe to NATO is also ‘put to one side’. Galileo, the… Read more »
The next gen GPS being developed by DARPA won’t even need satellites and the quantum based system in the early stages of development will be even less dependent on outside assets…
I think the UK should just step directly into the future and to heck with a new traditional GPS based system. You certainly have the technical capability to do so…
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/202111-darpa-to-re-invent-gps-navigation-without-satellites
Cheers!
I think many would suggest that you are looking through the wrong end of your telescope. Who is leaving who, for a start? And it is totally laughable to suggest that the EU are meddling in the Good Friday Agreement when as any fule kno there is no viable solution to the NI issue despite what the loony Brexiteers want to believe. All that the Brexit-loving obsessives can do is object to any proposed solution they don’t like, without offering ANY credible solution of their own.