The First Minister has, it seems, misrepresented the number of naval ships being built in Scottish shipyards.
Nicola Sturgeon said during First Minister questions
“While I do welcome the award of this contract, I’m duty-bound to note that the original proposal, back in 2010, was not for five new vessels – it was actually for 13 new vessels. It was said then that all of that work would be undertaken on the Clyde. So yes, let’s welcome it, but let’s not rewrite history in the process.”
I’ll just point this out right here, since 2010, 13 new vessels have been ordered on the Clyde. Five Offshore Patrol Vessels and eight frigates. On the East Coast, five frigates add to the total, making it 13 frigates spread between two yards. It is concerning that despite the order book being larger than that promised in 2014, 19 ships compared to 13, this is regarded as some sort of broken promise.
It’s more work for more people at more yards, where’s the downside?
What does the order book look like?
Royal Navy orders ‘good’ for Scottish shipbuilding, says SNP MP
The Chairman of the Scottish Affairs Committee, Pete Wishart SNP MP for Perth and North Perthshire, has cited ‘regular order’s for Royal Navy warships and ‘increased investment’ as being responsible for the ‘good shape’ of the shipbuilding industry in Scotland ahead of the publication of the findings of the inquiry into military shipbuilding in Scotland.
Pete Wishart MP, chair of the Scottish Affairs Committee, said during an evidence-gathering session:
“What we have concluded is this, the whole defence sector in Scotland is in pretty good shape. There seems to be regular orders, there seems to be increased investment, it all seems to be good news.”
The Scottish Affairs Committee scrutinises the expenditure, administration and policies of the Scotland Office, and its associated bodies. The Committee also examines the wider UK Government, to assess policies and legislation that lead to direct impacts on Scotland.
The remarks were made ahead of the upcoming publication of the findings of the inquiry into military shipbuilding in Scotland. In its own words, the inquiry is looking at…
- What impacts are the Government’s Shipbuilding Strategy and National Shipbuilding Office having on the shipbuilding industry in Scotland?
- How many and what types of Royal Navy ships will likely be built in Scotland in the years ahead? Will the sector grow?
- How does the procurement approach for each class of Royal Navy ship being determined on a case-by-case basis (including whether or not there should be international competition) affect Scottish shipbuilding?
- To what extent does Scotland benefit from exporting military ships (or parts of them) and/or their design licences? How can these opportunities be maximised?
- What more could the UK Government do to maintain and foster military shipbuilding in Scotland?
I even submitted evidence to answer those questions, you can read my work here.
How has shipbuilding in Scotland changed over the last decade?
Even just ten years ago shipbuilding in Scotland was described as a ‘feast and famine’ industry with effectively one or two shipyards hiring large numbers of new staff to work on a small number of new ships. This would then be followed by the ‘famine’ stage, with layoffs and uncertainty over whether or not there will be any future orders and whether or not the yard would have to close. Now, I believe, the industry is facing a much-improved situation.
Shipbuilding in Scotland is, primarily, structured to be able to meet the capability demands of the Royal Navy. However, the National Shipbuilding Strategy aimed to encourage the shipbuilding side of the defence industry to reduce its dependence on the Ministry of Defence as a sole customer and concentrate effort in securing a wider potential share of the international market.
With the success of the Type 26 and Type 31 designs in the export market, this aim of reducing dependence on the Ministry of Defence is being achieved to a small degree. Additionally, another aim of the National Shipbuilding Strategy was to reduce the reliance of the Ministry of Defence on one provider for the UK’s surface warships, namely BAE on the Clyde currently building the Type 26 Frigate and eventually, it is expected, the Type 83 Destroyer.
This shift in strategy has allowed Babcock at Rosyth to enter the business of complex warship construction in Scotland with the Type 31 Frigate and to sustain this down the line with the planned Type 32 Frigate. Today there is a steady ‘drumbeat’ of orders at two shipyards and the plans for future classes are well known, allowing for certainty, the retention of skills and greater investment. All of this contributes to bring down the cost of the vessels in the longer term. In short, there’s now more work for more people at more yards.
The danger of politicising military shipbuilding in Scotland
One key issue that has had significant influence on the often-torrid debate when it comes to military ship building in Scotland is the reduction of the Type 26 procurement from 13 to eight vessels.
The often passionate arguments from those who support and oppose Scottish independence makes a balanced view of military ship building in Scotland and its future difficult, as it can often end up with people shouting their ‘preferred’ facts at each other over social media rather than examining the issues.
Traditionally, the Royal Navy has purchased ship classes from multiple yards, in distinct batches. This not only spreads programme costs, but also allows for changes and improvements to the base design and rectification work, as well as for keeping shipyards open with a constant steady stream of work. Certainly, for famous classes like the Type 12I Leander, this batch production was necessary just to keep up with the radical changes seen in electronics and systems over their extensive career.
Ordering in batches is common
So, whilst the Royal Navy would have a projected number to be built, it was not unusual for the number of batches to be reduced or, on some occasions, increased as needed without comment by the wider general public to satisfy the requirements of the Admiralty and – always lurking in the background – the Treasury. This practice continued through to the Type 23 class, which was built by competing yards Marconi Marine in Scotstoun, and Swan Hunter in Wallsend. Interesting fact: you can tell where an individual Type 23 was built by inspecting its internal pipe fittings.
When it came to the Type 45 class, the Royal Navy projected a fleet size of twelve, split into multiple batches. A first batch of three vessels using modular construction would be split between two yards for final build with BAE Systems Marine on the Clyde and Vosper Thornycroft (VT) in Portsmouth. VT had actually built a new hall or “Ship Factory” with a new panel line to accommodate this work.
Nevertheless, BAE Systems Marine persuaded the Government of the time that it would be more cost effective for the final build to be on the Clyde, and VT ended up only providing sections. This caused much ongoing grievance amongst the people of Portsmouth, exacerbated by the eventual ending of ship building in Portsmouth in favour of the Clyde after the rationalisation of UK military shipbuilding as part of the often-talked-about Terms of Business Agreement with BAE Systems.
As it is well known, the order for Type 45 was reduced from twelve down to eight and eventually six. A change that had significant operational and political consequences that go beyond the scope of this article.
Warship building has been consolidated in Scotland
With warship construction consolidated on the Clyde, Type 26 was projected to be a build of 13 vessels; again, through multiple batches in keeping with common practice. For those familiar with military ship building, the 13 projected was at best a placeholder subject to change.
Certainly, it was well known in the period after the 2010 Strategic Defence and Security review that the equipment programme was once again being put under extreme financial pressure. Under this circumstance, it was unfortunate that the Scottish independence referendum, David Cameron, and the Better Together campaign unwisely turned routine procurement that could be subject to change into a political football game by making a direct promise to Scotland that 13 Type 26s would be built on the Clyde alongside a new “Frigate Factory”.
Party politics played their part
The Labour Party exacerbated the situation with a leaflet spelling out that if Scotland remained in the Union, it would get 13 Type 26 frigates. The Prime Minister and other Ministers plus representatives of the Better Together Campaign also regularly spelled out that a Scotland in the Union would be getting 13 Type 26 frigates.
So, when the referendum was over and Better Together had won, the reality that 13 Type 26 frigates were not deliverable within the allocated budget set in. A few months after cast-iron guarantees for 13 Type 26 frigates, the order was cut to eight as part of the 2015 Strategic Defence and Security, with a compensatory order for five general purpose frigates proffered and some Offshore Patrol Vessels ordered in their place.
“Technically” a broken promise
Considering what was promised in very clear terms by the Prime Minister, Better Together and other parties including Labour, it is understandable why Scottish Nationalists have fixated on it as a totemic issue. Put simply: 13 Type 26 frigates was a core promise by Better Together in the Independence campaign that has been, technically, broken.
Of course, the more nuanced point to be considered is that Scotland gained five River class Batch II Offshore Patrol Vessels and five Type 31 frigates (plus a “frigate factory” in Rosyth) as compensation for the loss. Scotland ended up with more shipbuilding work than promised as a result.
More work for more people at more places
Not that the Yes campaign and SNP get away from broken promises or, more accurately, promises they couldn’t guarantee as deliverable, when it comes to military ship building and the 2014 independence referendum.
The SNP position on the future of not only military ship building but also a future Scottish Navy was wholly unrealistic. During a transition period to independence, Scottish Shipyards would certainly need to complete any ongoing orders, or at the very least, what was already in build. But they certainly couldn’t guarantee the promises they made about the UK Ministry of Defence (MOD) and Royal Navy (RN) placing future orders with yards in a newly independent Scotland.
Likewise, the proposed Scottish Navy in composition was beyond what could be practically operated by any nascent Scottish navy initially.
An independent Scotland would focus on fisheries rather than frigates
The idea that Type 23 and Type 26 would form the cornerstone of a future Scottish Navy clashes with the reality that Scotland lacks the widespread training and support facilities needed to operate these vessels. Let alone the range of crew who could not be guaranteed to end their careers in the Royal Navy to join a Scottish Naval Service. To be fair, more recent proposals by the SNP on the matter, at least in respect of fleet composition, have been more realistic. However, the expectations for orders from the UK MOD and RN towards Scottish yards – if Scotland gained independence – are still unrealistic.
Whilst beyond the scope of this article, it is the opinion of the author that the basis of any future Scottish Naval Service would most realistically be formed around the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency, and the scale and role of its vessels would not be unlike the Icelandic Coastguard.
Sadly, this angry debate is set to continue with accusations, counter-accusations and many a myth spun. However, what all of this shows is the danger of politicising military shipbuilding, although this is not the first time it has happened. No doubt, a Ghostly Winston Churchill would give a little chuckle, considering the trouble induced by the Government of the day in 1906, when asking the public how many Dreadnoughts they wanted, only to get the response, “We want eight and we won’t wait”… two more than requested by the Admiralty.
Ahem, can Ms Sturgeon actually count? Wish they’d stop all the pathetic whinging and petty point scoring over all this and be grateful that for right now their local economy is getting invested in, people employed and trained and the RN is getting upgraded and strengthened for defence of the “whole” of the UK. If the Scots want to be independent later on well that’s for them to vote on later on. It’s like Western Australia here wanting to break away from the rest of Australia. We’re still one country here thank goodness.
Sturgeons can most certainly count, she is a trained solicitor and probably the most able politician in the UK. She is able to lie through her teeth without actually lying. In this instance she is technically correct. However the spirit of the pledge was certainly met. That being said the 13 frigate pledge was basically the only promise of the better together campaign that actually was met. Most of the major points like remaining in the EU were not met along with a substantial increase in the powers of the Scottish parliament. In the end they got control over APD.… Read more »
What a strange post doesn’t make any sense ..
Jimbo I’ll tell the jokes around here😂😂😂😂
🏴🇬🇧
The pathetic petty point scoring and the SNP agenda, is exactly why those orders should have been shared amongst other grateful British shipyards. The incessant anti UK agenda is there every time she opens her mouth. In a rational world, the SNP should have disappeared when they lost the independence referendum. But no, they linger like a smelly fart in church. As much as I sympathise with loyal Scottish veterans, the SNP are their elected government too. Someone needs to take responsibility for the trouble caused. What we have built here on these lovely islands must be the world’s most… Read more »
You make the UK sound like some Nazi Trumpian nation where “grateful” British shipyards are rewarded for what? 😂
You know that’s not how democracy works right?
You do realise that placing military orders has nothing to do with democracy and everything to do with free market forces, national security and maintaining an indigenous industrial capability.
As for Nazi Trumpian. I have no idea what you are talking about. Let me sit down and strap-in before you start explaining. Three, two, one. GO!
In a democracy like the UK democracy has a lot to do with placing military orders when the people making the decisions and placing the orders are democratically elected. Free market forces put the remaining UK warship building capacity in Scotland, BAE decided where to build ships not HMG but you don’t seem very happy about that. Can’t have it both ways.
Actually a lot to do with geography of the seabed but let it pass.
Govan is on the Clyde so technically isn’t.t that the river bed ?
Yes, I’m talking larger warships although the Clyde used to build 50k ton ships. Plus it seems the Gov is de-indutrialising England so Portsmouth and Southampton are No to heavy industry areas. All part of Net Zero. Now it seems Liverpool may go the same way.
Fishy as always.
Good article. I’m not Scots so can only go on what I read but the first ministers arguments are increasingly only supported by the most fanatical SNP supporters. They’re very loud but few (and getter fewer) in number.
On some topics definitely. I’m not that into Scottish politics right now but what I do know is the Scottish government have increased help for families to £100 per child per month. Stuff like that keeps a party in power.
Yes child payments great idea, free universities great idea , no prescription charges. That’s what is keeping the SNP in power. However it’s been a while since they did anything useful. Sturgeon is not as capable at Salmond and once a labour government comes in to Westminster things will calm down. If the EU- single market question can be answered and people in Scotland where given a bigger picture to focus on like CANZUK or EU return then support for independence would drop back to to the mid 30% region like it was before 2014. Obviously putting the UK through… Read more »
Your counting is as dubious as the First Minister’s. If you only go on what you read then you need to read a lot more diversely. Limiting what you actually read gives you false information! Don’t be a Trump!
In what way is my counting dubious ? How do you know what I read ? What does Donald Trump have to do with Scots Govt’s position on shipbuilding ?
Trump is famous for believing in confirmation bias by only reading what suits him and dismissing anythibg that doesn’t fit with his prior beliefs. The first announcement was for 13. Then the next was for 5. Then years later it has turned back to 13. And your statement about few and getting fewer is absolutely not correct! However if you only ever read a limited range of material usually what supports your prior beliefs and ignore or dismiss everything else then you will come up with a false understanding.
Promise
8 Type 26 ASW Frigates + 5 Type 26 GP Frigates = 13 Frigates
0 River Batch 2
Delivered
8 Type 26 ASW Frigates + 5 Type 31 GP Frigates = 13
5 River Batch 2
Not arguing about the promise. Just that (you are ignoring) the subsequent statements AFTER the initial promise only guaranteed and ordered the first 5 ships, leaving the remainder uncertin and undecided anyway and not promised. The recent announcements bring it back to what was promised. So arguments about political complaints need to reflect when the complaints were made, which were before the decision was made about the remainder of the ships.
The most fanatical SNP supporters have been trying to get rid of sturgeon for a while now, she is the one going out of her way not to have a referendum. That’s why she launched a nonsense legal challenge. She does not want a referendum she can’t win especially now when budget deficits are high and the EU door is firmly closed.
If they are so few, how come the SNP dominate north of the border?
SNP 64 everyone else 57 Next largest party is 31 for the Conservatives. They certainly cause trouble for everyone else. Sucking up to the EU and undermining the BREXIT process for starters!
The SNP and the Greens divide the Nationalist vote between them.
The Unionist vote is divided between everyone else.
64 what vs 57 what? The SNP don’t have a majority of MSP’s in Scottish parliament. They never had one since the vote in 2011.
I do appreciate consistency in political outlook. NS ‘epitomises’ that to a tee. God bless her and all who……..*
* I wonder what part of SS Sturgeon she’d claim is not actually being build in Scotland? 😏
Scotland will be part of the Union for the forseable future. According to recent polls less than 3 in 10 Scottish voters support another, devisive, independence referendum. Of the ~30% in support, less than 45% would vote Yes
George has produced an outstanding analysis of shipbuilding in Scotland. Fortunately the MoD has not placed any work with Sturgeon’s Ferguson Marine shipyard, following her hugely expensive ferry fiasco.
Sturgeon hasn’t placed any more orders with Ferguson’s either. Other ferries have been ordered, requested bids etc.
Which polling company produced those stats and who paid for it?
Latest yougov survey was 51% no 49% yes, which is pretty tight and so if you have a vote it could go either way, thanks to campaigning.
It depends on how the question is asked. Ask ‘should Scotland be an independent country’ results in an indecisive, 50/50 vote. Ask ‘should Scotland leave the Union’ and the result is 55/45 against, as the 2014 referendum. Sturgeon seems to believe that the SNP should have repeated independence referenda every 5 years – until Scotland votes the way they want. Much of her rhetoric is to deflect attention from the appalling condition of Scotland’s public services after 15 years of one party SNP rule, along with the highest level of tax in Western Europe. And I think it’s fair to… Read more »
To me another vote is fair as one of the remain levers was all around staying in the EU. Considering the UK left the EU on a tight vote that was triggered by this government, it’s not really fair to say no based on that. As for the public service, they are destroyed in the rest of the UK also. Just take a drive and see all the potholes or try and get a doctor or dentist appointment to see that first hand. But do agree that there needs to be an end to this, it can’t be every few… Read more »
If you want to have better public Services, Scots don’t need to break the Union. Then we should get rid of London and Edinburgh, the most fervent pro EU places in the UK, and their so-called financial industry, that is keeping the highly educated away from becoming doctors etc. It’s utterly clear, who has the power in the country. The City brought down Truss, who got at least a sensible plan to bring businesses back into British hands. Not good for an economic branch built upon selling shares of said industry to sheikdoms. It was the last straw, and people… Read more »
Im not really sure that the labour would fix it either, but i do think they would do less harm. I am not sure its the conservatives that are the issue, its the specific PMs that are pulling all the strings. I don’t remember Major’s etc governments being this bad. Part of the problem with how our version of democracy works is we only have 2 parties with most of the country always voting one way no matter what. We need competition to encourage change. The issue isn’t the city of london and the financial services, as that brings the… Read more »
referendums are very divisive as any campaigning claims made before a ref are NOT obligated on a government after.
this reminds me of browns 2 carrier politicking and wow what a contract which made cancellation too expensive, luckily, I’m glad we have the carriers.
Sorry to have to say this but it’s time for Ms Sturgeon to move on. She has long ago passed the point where stopped being a servant to her people and started projecting her own issues onto her nation.
Just goes to show that most politicians don’t have a clue when it comes to shipbuilding or defence in general.
Normally if don’t know about something I keep my big mouth shut until I know more on the topic. Perhaps politicians should learn to do the same.
Could this be her worst gaff of 2022?
Let’s not beat about the bush. The FM’s comments have little to do with facts and more to do with anti-English racism.
Sadly correct. This is not what a fine people and country deserve. It’s petty.
This is most interesting. Your article says that politicising Scottish shipbuilding is dangerous. What do you think this article has done? Just look at the comments! A non story that simply rubs salt in the wound of the Union. It could be looked upon as British shipbuilding. The real news is that the government has kept defence spending at 2% which in real terms is a cut. Those lovely new ships might find themselves tied up crewless. Time itself will bring us that news when it’s good and ready.
Exactly, happens article after article on here. You would think seeing as there isn’t exactly a lack of defence news going on at the moment there would be much to be taking about. These articles, which are posted on a regular basis, exactly for the reaction that they get and to yet again air the posters political bias. Far from being impartial this site, a real shame as some of the content can be decent at times.
The internet is a big place if you think this site is ‘far from being impartial’ i’m sure you could find an ‘impartial’ one.
Well said David let’s kick everyone one off that disagrees. Will make for a much better comments section if their is no divergence of opinion.
You better watch complaining about topics gets people banned around here.
No idea how I would cope if that happened.. ;0)
Sturgeon is the one who decided to make that comment, not George. And by making it as a politician, it is asking for a response. So she’s the one doing the politicising.
I mean, we could ignore anything that comes out of her mouth. Actually… perhaps that is a good idea?
They can’t “keep” defence spending at 2% as it was at 2.2%. Next year will not only see a real terms decrease, but also an absolute decrease.
Not that this has anything to do with the Scots Nats or the careful misue of the English language by the FS. It seems they all like to mangle meaning
A couple of points. The UK Government should never have specified the actual type of ship to be built, merely the quantity, which would have killed her argument dead in the water. A bit like the Type 45’s used to be before the upgrade. But, and here is the killer, if the SNP were to have placed and run the contract, I doubt that George would get much practice flying his drone over the yard showing us the progress of HMS Glasgow, which would have perhaps still been just a glint in Nicola’s eye. As David pointed out, the Ferry… Read more »
I stunned the way the MoD negotiates at times, its like going into a car dealer saying I’m buying that car right there, not going anywhere else, so what’s you’re best price.
Yes the original order ‘promise’ was for 13. But then this was downgraded to the 5. It is only recently that the further orders were added to make it back up to that 13. There were a number of defence spending reviews in the interim. When jobs. epecially specialist ones, are at stake which affect the actual maintaining of a facility it is fair to complain. Pity that even the promised ships are still not enough!
I’m sorry Nick but your wrong as well. The initial plan was for 13 frigates, the assumption being that they would all be T26. In fact the orders were for 8 T26 and five T31. All are being built in Scotland.
No I am not wrong. Nothing to do with what was announced originally but the promise at the start was not maintained while the reviews were being undertaken. There was an intention yes, but initially only the first 5 were confirmed and there were no longer any promises to place further orders until recently. It was the changing numbers of when and what that caused (and still does) confusion.
What first five are you talking about? What class of ship? The first contract was for three OPVs (2014). Then long lead items for the 3 Type 26s + test kit (2015) Then two more OPVs (2016) Then three Type 26s (2017) Then five Type 31s (2019) The long lead items for five Type 26s (2020/21) Then five more Type 26s (2022) There is no confusion. The government has been consistent since the 2015 review, with the exception of the announcement of the new Type 32 and Type 83 classes in 2021, which are over and above those announced in… Read more »
The confusion was caused by the misleading initial ‘promise’ of a number of ships. Then we were all told only some were to be built, then another batch and so on. That initial programme was all subject to confirmation at spending reviews and plans which were periodically changed.
….and your still wrong. Three originally plus five plus five equals thirteen which is the number that has been in the pipeline for the last four years. If this is confusing the Scots God help us.
It was cinfusing BECAUSE the initial promise was always dependant in spending reviews and ony released in batches, with stated uncertainty about furture orders. The fact they have now caught up with the initial statement is to be welcomed, but along the way they did not confirm future orders. Hence people got distracted and upset.
For the life of me I can’t think why people should be upset unless they’re listening to SNP propaganda. It was always going to be thirteen, is thirteen and will be thirteen when they join the fleet, not counting now the follow on plan for five T32’s
Give up it’s a waste of time.
😉
Spot on.
She never stops lying .
She forgets where the money comes from to keep Scotland going? Yes us south of the border, perhaps its us that live south that should say on Scotlands future in the union, all that dosh would help us a lot below the border and they would be without anything as the potential has been wasted by idiots like her gopping off without any real idea. Wish someone would remove her as she has done more damage to Scotland’s position in the UK than anyone. And I’m a Scot.
Do Scottish people not pay tax? The money doesn’t only comes from south of the border as you put it.
Everyone needs to move on from this nonsense. We are the uk. A Union made up of nations. From outside the uk we are viewed as one country.
First Minister misrepresents shipbuilding numbers/ Really, that’s amazing!😡
I am British, I am Scottish and I am proud of the Ship building carried out in Scotland to help defend the Union. As for the SNP they say anything, promise everything and ignore any facts that conflict with their solitary objective of independence. The announcements this week to build 5 T26, 3 FSS and acquire 2 (1 new build) MROSS vessels is a real commitment to invest in U.K. shipbuilding. IMHO The reinvigorating of shipbuilding at H&W Belfast and Appledore may just be the smartest move HMG has made in years. As U.K. now has a 2nd basket to… Read more »
Wholeheartedly agree.
Well said. On Defence budget it seems as though we’re going to have wait for the update to the SDR to find out what will happen to the Budget. In theory that’s the way they should all have been done. Decide what you want work out how much it will cost then provide the cash. Unfortunately I am sceptical as to whether that’s how it will turn out.
Can – Road – Kick Arrange into a sentence that implies meaningful action. But is actually Masterly Inactivity – to quote Sir Humphrey I wonder if the publication of the SDR will be delayed till about 12 months after the Ukrainian conflict simmers down? Jim Hacker: You will agree that so far my premiership has been a great success. Sir Humphrey: Oh, indeed. Jim Hacker: Yes, and I have been asking myself: “What can I do to continue this run of success?” Sir Humphrey: Have you considered masterly inactivity? Jim Hacker: No, Humphrey. A Prime Minister must be firm. Sir… Read more »
😂😂👍
Main points on yesterdays Autumn Statement (aka Budget) is that Hunt recognises that there is a war in Europe, Russia is a serious threat to peace in Europe, that we need to spend more but that the Integrated Review (IR) needs to be rewritten to inform the process of increasing defence budget and in what areas.
Seems odd replying to myself but I would like to expand my suggestion regarding allowing a fresh referendum, my reasons for that and conditions set. IMHO The only way to save the Union long term is to let the SNP get on with it, have their referendum and lose with no foreseeable option to keep trying. The simple arithmetic is blindingly obvious and consistent regarding the support in Scotland for independence. % of SNP support. 2011 MSP election 45.4% 2014 Referendum. 44.7% 2016 MSP election 46.5% 2017 General election 45.0% 2019 General election 45.0% 2021 MSP election 47.7% Speaks for… Read more »
I see where you are coming from but personally, a century is too much – at the very least, a generation. A Brexit type result for me is also unacceptable (approx 51% to 49%) – roughly half the population wanting Independence and roughly half wanting the Union is not a recipe for stability for any new country. A narrow majority is ‘OK’ for a General Election when there’s a second chance the decision will be reversed in no more than the following 5 years (i.e., until the next election) but the question of Independence is too important (as was Brexit,… Read more »
So far all U.K. referendums have been a simple majority vote, in most cases the outcomes are pretty tight. The exceptions were the original vote to enter the EU and the one about PR. Unless there is some huge event that massively tilts the opinion of the last 6 votes the results are consistently in the 45 – 47 % range. And don’t forget that all the ones above 45% are after the Tory government came in. As for the length of time before allowing another Referendum, 100 years is an arbitrary but precise figure (it could be 50 or… Read more »
Thanks for the response. I was really thinking of the common ‘definition’ of about 20-30 years for a generation so at least 25 would be more realistic than 100, in my book. The 1979 devolution referendum failed because it was judged that not enough of the electorate were interested enough to vote (even though it was 51.6% in favour) whereas the 1997 devolution referendum (successful in the sense, enough voters participated) resulted in an overwhelming 74.3% in favour. Of course, going by the 2014 referendum, I don’t think there will be any lack of interest turnout wise if another referendum… Read more »
There was never a people’s vote (referendum) to enter the EU and also no vote to enter its predecessor, the EEC.
Thank you. Even the vote to enter the EEC was two years after Heath finished the transition in 1973 to the EEC. The public didn’t have a voice until two years later in 1975. Turns out Thatcher wanted to remain, even though she changed to being a eurosceptic. And the socialist split in the Labour party wanted to withdraw to protect jobs. Funny how things changed.
Yes, the 1975 referendum was all about – do you want us to remain in the EEC? – as in – ooops we forgo to do a joining referendum 2 years ago!! Harold Wilson, Labour PM, decided to finally ask the People what they thought of Ted’s euro project.
Joining the EEC was aTed Heath vanity/legacy project – consulting the public in advance was not something he thought about.
My bad technically we didn’t vote to join the EC (EEC) we voted to continue our membership. It was June 1975 and the UKs first ever National referendum.
And for me it was the very 1st time I got to cast a vote. so that is twice I voted to leave.
Yes mate. Tory Ted Heath decided for us to join the EEC.
His replacement, Labour’s Harold Wilson decided to try out democracy in 1975 and ask the people if we should stay in. We all still thought it was just about getting cheap wine, Belgian beer and French cheese, so said ‘OK, lets crack on’.
For such a monumental change, a clear super-majority should be required.
At last some sense spoken. I would 2/3rds to pass a referendum
So glad that we have a national (war)ship building strategy. Still no sign of the much-vaunted Land Equipment equivalent!
‘The First Minister has, it seems, misrepresented the number of naval ships being built in Scottish shipyards.‘
Well, I’m stunned! I wasn’t expecting that!
Orders will cease once Scotland goes independent
By then our colony of ‘New Scotland’, located on Mars, will be be able to take it’s place in the Union…
Great article-thank you George. Also glad to see a renaissance albeit a small one, of Harland and Woolf
It is time someone reminded her of the ferry debacle.
Without going over the Fergusson Marine meddling and subsequent loooong delays where did the contract for the next two brand new ferries go?
Turkey.
How can that be right using her logic?
She probably prefers Turkey to England.
Meanwhile the peoples of the Hebrides continue to be blighted by a service that is unreliable (mostly due to aging equipment failure) and involves long journey times for alternative crossings.
Wish they’d just move the work to England and Wales, same with the sub base, and tell the Scots to go do one and sink on their own. England and Wales would take on the work and be delighted to have it.
You’ve fallen into the trap the SNP want you to make, that the view of their party are the views of the entire people. Their vile politics relies on building an image of the English being nasty and anti-Scottish.
Slightly off topic but related. Quite often in times of financial issues that arise such as recently. I’m asked by and debate with my family and friends why do we spend so much on defense?
I point out the obvious: safety, security protection of UK interest’s overseas and protecting our way of life. However, this does not seem very convincing.
Any of you faced the same and have quick snappy answers?
Cheers,
George
It’s the price of FREEDOM they enjoy and without it they would not have such. They are fortunate not to have to serve to enjoy the freedom of this country. You pay for insurances on almost anything these days always hopping you NEVER EVER HAVE TO CLAIM and that is what the Defence Budget is an Insurance Policy Those that serve already have given up some of those freedoms so others can enjoy them and sleep easy at night. And if they don’t like that, tell them there are planes leaving Heathrow all the time, take one.
When draconian actors start a war, even on the other side of the continent, it can have a huge effect on our direct economy, as your family may have noticed. So we try to deter such bad actions. Failure to spend is failure to deter. And you end up paying for it later.
It’s not just about safety, it’s about maintaining stability.
UK interest overseas included literally millions of British citizens. A lot work temporarily and execute work on behave of the UK companies and governments http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/brits_abroad/html/mid_east.stm Our oversea territories need protecting. Aid we still spend 0.5% on aid, our defence budget help ensure that is protected. And of course the military are the only organisation who can mobilise and provide scaled disaster relief. Trade, we’re a trading nation. Shipping lanes air corridors need to be open globally. Even electronic transactions done by banks need the infrastructure protecting. So undersea cables need to be monitored and protected. Cyber defence to protect our… Read more »
“Si vis pacem, para bellum.”
The concept is advocated by Plato, Sun Tzu, etc. it’s also the RN’s motto.
Apart from security of ourselves & allies, relying heavily on maritime trade across the whole world, we’re a permanent member of the UN security council thus having the duty & responsability for maintaining international law.
However I’d say we are not spending enough for the defence of the UK, let alone the other responsabilities, which is one reason Russia & China feel so emboldened & confident to project brutal autocracy & their neo-colonialism across the world & undermining free democracies. Free democracies are facing an existential crisis.
Maybe she would like to explain in plain English about the Ferry fiasco. If the SNP had any part to play in the warship building programme it would be a fiasco. This is my point deflect criticism on the 2 ferries with painted on windows and whinge about the other yards.
I know it’s off topic but I found something that would be of interest.
Birmingham World
Former Birmingham human rights lawyer Phil Shiner to stand trial for fraud.
Good! Absolute tosser!
‘Human rights lawyer’ 👹👹
The FM is a consistent liar and misrepresents, distorts, and is also a racist. I am Scottish born and bred and I am proud to be Scottish. I am also equally British and proud of my heritage. NS and the Scottish Nazi Party do not represent the majority of Scottish people.The Scot’s do well out of the union. There are also untold numbers of Scottish man and women who have given there lives for this country. The SNP do nothing but preach lies, racism and division.Please forgive the rant.
Galloway born and bred and I completely agree with you.
Why are we building so many frigates? Surely we need more destroyers and maybe another carrier or two.
Frigates are workhorses. General Purpose frigates might cover commercial shipping lanes in dangerous chokepoints such at the Straits of Hormuz or Bab al Mandab. They are usually our fleet ready escorts for incidents in home waters. They cover anti-submarine patrols in the North Sea and the Greeland-Iceland-UK gap looking for Russian submarine activity. They sweep in the North Atlantic, where our ballistic missile submarines like to hang out and used to sweep the South Atlantic as far as the Falklands. They form part of the carrier strike groups and the littoral response groups, and are in demand in NATO, JEF… Read more »
Well La Sturgeon would mis represent any issue to be to be anti Scottish by Westminster sad really
Ms Sturgeon clearly will do anything to create a rift between Scotish voters and the rest of the UK. Will she not say anything to get independence. Effectively she is saying that she is happy to lose the defence industry & much of the workforce to England, NI or Wales,
‘First Minister appears to misrepresent’
That pretty much sums up everything in SNPLand….
Sturgeon has her own agenda. She can barely disguise her anyi English rhetoric. She gets way to much airtime and does not represent the majority of Scots. She’s never been the same and became bitter and twisted since crackerjack was cancelled. Fandabydoozie….