Type 45 Destroyer HMS Diamond is in port with “technical issues”, the British Embassy in Singapore has confirmed.

The issue is not related to the propulsion and power systems.

The vessel had previously detached from the UK’s Carrier Strike Group back in July whilst in the Mediterranean Sea before sailing again to re-join the group in the Pacific.

It is currently unknown what the issue is, let’s not jump to any conclusions.

What is the Carrier Strike Group doing?

Commodore Steve Moorhouse, Commander United Kingdom Carrier Strike Group, also said in a news release:

“The Carrier Strike Group’s deployment has been designed to recognise the importance of the region globally. The Group’s presence also demonstrates our support for the freedom of navigation passage through vital trading routes and our commitment to an international system of norms that benefits all countries.

So thank you Singapore for your support to the Carrier Strike Group’s deployment, for contributing to air exercises alongside our jets and supporting HMS Queen Elizabeth’s pit stop at Changi. We are proud to play our part in continuing to grow and deepen the Singapore-UK relationship.”

As part of its maiden operational deployment, the Carrier Strike Group will sail over 26,000 nautical miles, engaging with 40 countries from the Mediterranean to the Indo-Pacific and back again.

The Carrier Strike Group includes ships from the United States Navy, the Dutch Navy, and Marines from the US Marine Corps as well as air assets from 617 Sqn, 820 NAS, 815 NAS and 845 NAS.

The Carrier Strike Group.

Not pictured above is an Astute class submarine. The Carrier Strike Group was joined in the opening phase of the deployment by HMS Artful (which returned to Gibraltar after completing the opening phase), now another Astute class submarine (HMS Astute or HMS Ambush) has joined the group as pointed out by NavyLookout on Twitter.

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Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago

Ouch

FenTiger
FenTiger
1 month ago

Built on a Friday?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  FenTiger

Designed compromised by a politician.

RR did warn them in all fairness.

Ron5
Ron5
1 month ago

Bae told them to buy an American engine. Hoon just wanted votes.

Mark B
Mark B
1 month ago
Reply to  Ron5

Do we know there is a problem with the engines?

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

Yes Mark it’s very technical but the gist of the mater is the American Rubber band wind Counter clockwise rather than the British are Anti clockwise What that means ifs should have bought Malaysian Rubber bands that’s why Diamond is in Singas

Mark B
Mark B
1 month ago
Reply to  Ron5

I’m not sure that once the UK has eliminated the issues with the Type 45, added additional kit it wouldn’t be a good idea to build 6 more.

Alan Reid
Alan Reid
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

There’s no capacity in UK shipyards to build additional T45s, Mark. Indeed the last T45 (Duncan) was launched over ten years ago.
Best we can maybe hope is for the MoD to extend the Type 26 production run at Govan – and add a 9th and 10th hull (etc) for a AAW variant of the T26.

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Best bet solution in my book ,regardless of the future destroyer programme.

Quentin Drury
Quentin Drury
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

You have my vote too. I’d also like see 1-2 to more ASW T26s in the fleet. As has been mentioned before an AAW T26 will need a stretch for additional VLS. If QUAD CAMM is selected (as is in the Canadian T26) there’s already a huge space saving.
With all the tech and missile upgrade investment going into the T45 let’s hope they can get these issues sorted out.

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago
Reply to  Quentin Drury

Shouldn’t be too much of a stretch to obtain a design stretch! Seriously I think we are very tight with just six AAW ships as it is. Maybe a better medium term solution would be to have four AAW versions and two more ASW types, increasing the overall build line.

expat
expat
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

OK this is fantasy fleet territory but if its dedicated AAW the why not go for the T31, You don’t need the more complex super quiet propulsion system of the T26. The beam of the T31 is 1 metre less than the T26 which as I understand is more critical than length for the mast height you want for AAW. So not much difference. The radar of an intermediate AAW ship would likely be closer to the flat panel AESA on the Hunter class or original Danish design but you’d start from scratch here to get the max mast height… Read more »

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago
Reply to  expat

I think the general consensus of opinion on here was that the Type 26 would not be the best starting point for the Type 45 replacement, if as you say the Type 31 has a narrower Beam than the Type 26 then I’d have thought that would rule it out also.

Expat
Expat
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul T

And I agree with that but my post was aimed at if we needed to boost numbers with a current Hull then the T31 should be considered. Anyway it’s fantasy fleet stuff no AAW hulls will be built until next decade.

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago
Reply to  expat

Hi expat, You’re right . It’s a bit like a Christmas wish list. I was thinking of the T26 because of Q.D. but also because the T26 is very similar in size to the FREMM…65 to 68 feet in the beam respectively and the French have gone ahead as you know with AAW in Alsace and Lorraine.

Mark B
Mark B
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

Yes but is the propulsion system for the type 26 tried and tested? How do we know we won’t be back to square one?

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

Aaaargh!

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

HMS Richmond has an upgraded Powertrain that has lots in common with that of the Type 26,she is performing well on CSG21 so logically the T26 shouldn’t suffer any similar issues.

Mark B
Mark B
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul T

Good to know. Are we to believe that the MOD are using Richmond as a testbed for T26 propulsion. If so perhaps T26 will be a platform for multi-role reliable RN ships of the future. If so we should have 10 not 2. However perhaps we are getting ahead of ourselves.

expat
expat
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

We they delivered the gear boxes late for the first T26 so holes were left in the hull to slot them in. Lets hope that extra time was used for factory tests 🙂

Mark B
Mark B
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

Perhaps capacity is the real issue Alan. Would it not be a good move to have Government money support facilities throughout the UK.

Rob N
Rob N
1 month ago
Reply to  Alan Reid

The Type 83 is the replacement for the T45 not some extra T26. We stuck at 8 T26 hulls BECAUSE we could not afford more.

I would rather see money go to T83 as this will be a more capable desighn.

Mark B
Mark B
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob N

Ah I thought little was known about the T83 design?

Rob N
Rob N
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

Hi, There are not many details but we can make some reasonable deductions. Firstly it will be at least as well armed as the upgraded T45 with 48+24 missiles. As the UK has expressed an interest in ASTER 30 block 1NT it would likely that it will have this missile as the link range option. Possibly with the ABM ASTER 30 block 2 when it comes on line. Sea Ceptor is the close to medium range SAM. The number of the missile load-out might be larger then T45. The designation is reminiscent of the old Bristol T82 destroyer. T82 had… Read more »

Mark B
Mark B
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob N

Thanks Rob. Interesting.

Johan
Johan
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

its a type Number and an Artist rendering, Lick one’s finger and point it to skywoods.

Will it be manned/ what will arm it, but someone will be taking £100000s off the tax payer

Paul C
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

The T45 is a legacy design now. I doubt more could be built even if the capacity existed. As others suggest, the only workable solution (but unlikely unfortunately) would be to build a couple of AAW T26s.

Andy Reeves
Andy Reeves
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

nice to have them though

malcolm.morgan
malcolm.morgan
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

No probably sell them to the Russians as a thank you for Salisbury that about the competence of Boris and ritchie
Well if we get invaded by mercon we can send our Welsh mam’s in Red shawls and hopefully they might run away again and Boris could give another round of bullshit about cost and age of tanks and can we afford them so he call them HMS Cambria royal marine commando’s

George Parker
George Parker
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark B

Shame we can’t come up with a common design for all the anglosphere 5 eyes navies and build them in each of those nations. Split the R&D costs and pool the technology.

James William Fennell
James William Fennell
1 month ago
Reply to  Ron5

Its not clear what the problem is yet. The story behind the WR21 engines is that we took a punt on innovation, the intercooled / heat recovery design seemed to offer advantages in fuel consumption, reducing emissions and extending range. The project had UK, French and US backing at first, but only the UK stuck with it. It uses innovative heat recovery technology from F1 as well as the intercooler.

Johan
Johan
1 month ago

USA and innovative designs, FORD CLASS v QE Class which design was a risk, Which design is currently on Active Duty, Which design are there 2 in service, AND WHICH DESIGN still cannot launch a lifeboat. RN learnt a good deal about fitting Innovation, but don’t risk the Engine room.

Rob N
Rob N
1 month ago
Reply to  Ron5

The RR gas turbines in the T45 are very reliable, it is the US built intercoolers that go wrong. So it is a US problem and not a UK one.

James William Fennell
James William Fennell
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob N

The intercoooler is an integral part of the WR21, so they can’t be separated really – but you are right GE was responsible for the intercooler design.

Jack
Jack
1 month ago

Northrop Grumman designed the intercooler.

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago

Once fitted the N.G designed intercooler were in theory supposed too have the longethaty of the ship that there built around Once in in for Life ? Evidently the Yanks don’t thrash the Ships like us OOW manoeuvres

James William Fennell
James William Fennell
1 month ago
Reply to  Tommo

The USN don’t use the design – they pulled out of the project as too risky – only the the UK persisted with it.

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago

Evidently, ,James, the previous Labour Government, must of thought they were on to a good thing Cheap in the short term extortionate in the long term they were good at wasting Taxpayers money

James William Fennell
James William Fennell
1 month ago
Reply to  Tommo

TBH honest MoD procurement mistakes seem to be politically agnostic. Shit under both parties.

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago

Sack Whitehall Civvies and employ EX military personnel cheap at half the price than Civil servants and their Luncheon Vouchers

Rob N
Rob N
1 month ago
Reply to  Tommo

I am sorry to tell you this but it is politicians who decide such things. The poor staff just have to carry out their silly ideas.

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob N

The Problem also arises when MPs whose previous occupation was that of the Armed Forces seem too be Never listened too as well

Johan
Johan
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob N

yep agreed, never the low food chain

expat
expat
1 month ago
Reply to  Tommo

I’d pair them up with some savvy commercial bods from industries like commercial aviation and oil n gas where they don’t d1ck around on contracts excepting liabilities 🙂

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  expat

I second your opinion on that Expat

Johan
Johan
1 month ago
Reply to  Tommo

trouble is Ex-Service don’t care about wasting money, If they get taken to Spain and a new car, they would buy a plastic duck. Cservs are doing as per the procurement guidelines. There Was a Procurement order through an office for 5 Land Rover Defenders, Order stated make n model and the requirement. 110 @ £100k each, Procurement office looked @ spec and asked for reasons model selected, as the procurement paper said they were for training ground use. The office came back and quoted they could purchase 5 4×4 crew cabbed pickups to meet the spec for the price… Read more »

Johan
Johan
1 month ago
Reply to  Tommo

Until they worked out there is no repeat business if it runs forever, and so they design it badly, USA defence industry and contractors are like the UKs in the 70s

Andy P
Andy P
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob N

Its still a UK problem as we have them fitted on UK ships. At this stage playing the blame game is a kind of moot point.

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Ron5

Could of been a lot Worse Hoon could of been replaced with Blunkitt then we would of been up the Creek

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Ron5

Surely the problem most of the time has been the failure of the US-made intercooler on the British Gas Turbine engine.

Deep32
Deep32
1 month ago

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of its design then! It’s a very big OUCH irrespective of what the issue is.

James William Fennell
James William Fennell
1 month ago
Reply to  Deep32

The design is fine. They are all getting an upgrade with a extra diesel generator set to provide more power to augment the WR21 in hot conidtions (it works fine in cool climates), but Diamond has not had the upgrade yet.

Deep32
Deep32
1 month ago

Hi James, yes appreciate the issues and the fact that the problem isnt propulsion related. More just frustration on my part really, expect this is the last thing they needed really, but probably not unrealistic given the increased tempo of ops she is undertaking.

Lusty
Lusty
1 month ago
Reply to  Deep32

It’s extremely frustrating. It feels as if the ‘good’ news stories that are generated by the Andrew are keelhauled and fired out of a cannon by the Type 45 problems. Thankfully, the work on fixing it has been started AND we can look forward to them receiving an additional capability upgrade in the coming years (finally). I guess we’re reaping what we sow in many aspects. The demand for a higher operational tempo has placed increased strain on smaller fleets of ships. We should have had twelve of these, but the cut from eight to six was arguably an even… Read more »

Deep32
Deep32
1 month ago
Reply to  Lusty

Hello mate, couldn’t agree more with what you said, lack of numbers is eventually going to bite us in the butt! I think it would be enlightening if the MOD did actually spell out how much work a crew puts in to get a ship ready for a deployment such as this, might open a few eyes….. God you will have me defending binbags next,!! Will need to give myself a good talking too if that occurs. 🤣🤣 No permission needed mate, think we would all welcome the fact if the MOD actually saw fit to order 8+ T83’s. If… Read more »

James
James
1 month ago

The type 45 destroyers are way over rated not value for money. When you build such expensive ships you can’t afford to have 6 only which have constantly technical issues . The type 23 frigates have been great for the Royal Navy. The next destroyers must be value for money and the number of ships must be higher . The type 45 remind of the US Zumwalt class

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  James

That is what the defence secretary has already said. He was critical of the costs and unreliability of the T45 as it was a perfectionists dream.

T31 is the first experiment in that direction.

julian1
julian1
1 month ago

I wonder if the Russians will lend us a tug

John N
John N
1 month ago
Reply to  julian1

The Russian carrier is currently non-operational, you could probably get a loan of the tugs that used to shadow her! Ha ha!

Andy Reeves
Andy Reeves
1 month ago
Reply to  julian1

it would need to be a big one

Mark
Mark
1 month ago

It’s the refrigerator for the beer on board it packed up and can’t work without cold suds 🤣🤣🤣

Andy Reeves
Andy Reeves
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark

ee gads thow cannot be serious no beer? no wonder we’ve no sailors

Pete
Pete
1 month ago

All part of the global Britain strategy. Supporting shipyards across the Globe, (coming to a yard near you in 2022)

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  Pete

You beat me to it 😂
I too reckon its a cunning plan to accelerate the setting up of a RN ship repair facility in Singapore.

BB85
BB85
1 month ago

I wonder will the lack of activity for these warships extend their service life. I know the problems will be solved but it does look like the ships have only completed a fraction of the patrols that they would have expected to up to this point.

Andy Reeves
Andy Reeves
1 month ago
Reply to  BB85

by the time the ships are really sorted they’ll be scrap aas it is they’re getting thrashed and will be worn out before their due dates

farouk
farouk
1 month ago

The MOD these past few years:
Pound foolish penny shy

Ron5
Ron5
1 month ago
Reply to  farouk

Stupid comment. The engines they chose cost a lot more.

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago

Worth reading with the replacement Type 83 destroyer is not due until the late 2030s.

Would it not make sense to get all Type 45s fixed and upgraded as an absolute priority?

https://www.navylookout.com/putting-the-type-45-propulsion-problems-in-perspective/

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

The Integrated Review published in March 2021 promised enhancements to the Sea Viper missile system, but the news that Type 45s will receive additional missiles is a big step forward and a welcome surprise.

A new 24-missile Sea Ceptor silo will be added in front of the current 48-missile Sylver VLS silo (See speculative mockup above), increasing the overall missile capacity from 48 to 72.

Not only does this raise overall missile numbers by 50%, but also offers the potential to increase the range and reach of the existing Sea Viper system.

https://www.navylookout.com/royal-navys-type-45-destroyers-reaching-their-full-potential-with-addition-of-sea-ceptor-missiles/

john
john
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

nice having more missiles on a warship however, pointless if said warship sends most of its time in port undergoing repairs

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  john

Correct, hence my comment above!

“Would it not make sense to get all Type 45s fixed and upgraded as an absolute priority?”

geoff
geoff
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Have not at least 3 of them had new engines fitted already after cutting through the hull or did I dream that?(quite possible at my age)

Jeff Web
Jeff Web
1 month ago
Reply to  geoff

I think only two so far but I stand to be corrected.

Lusty
Lusty
1 month ago
Reply to  geoff

Only Dauntless has received the new gen-sets, but she’s still at HMNB Birkenhead*. Daring has also joined her at Birkenhead; she’ll be the next to receive the upgrade.

*I’m joking before anyone points it out. 🙂

geoff
geoff
1 month ago
Reply to  Lusty

Ah the Birkenhead Lusty-women and children first! About a thousand miles down the east coast from my home in Durban. A notoriously dangerous stretch of ocean with some giant seas and occasional rogue waves of immense proportion. No doubt you have first hand knowledge! The other irony is when the Oceanos sank off the coast near East London some years back the Captain abandoned ship before anyone else was rescued!! Back to every man for himself women and children last! 😂

Lusty
Lusty
1 month ago
Reply to  geoff

I once spent three months on the same wave. 😂

David Steeper
1 month ago
Reply to  geoff

The seas or the great white sharks ! Not much paddling in the water then ?

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Lusty
Last edited 1 month ago by Nigel Collins
Lusty
Lusty
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Possibly. It’s worth noting that the Royal Navy currently operates two iterations of the 30mm – the DS-30B Mk 1 and the DS-30M Mk2. The DS-30B is used on the Type 45 destroyers and is different from the mounts on the Type 23 frigates(DS-30M) which were used for the test. I should imagine that it might be possible to upgrade the older DS-30B, but MSI (the manufacturer of the DS-30M) has already released a dedicated product (Sigma) that integrates the 30mm and Martlet. By the looks of it, Sigma utilises four LMM tubes rather than the five used in the… Read more »

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Lusty

Many thanks for your quick and detailed response!

Lusty
Lusty
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Any time, Nigel. 🙂

julian1
julian1
1 month ago
Reply to  john

if you watch the new Bond film, the ground attach missiles on the 45s are very impressive!

Rfn_Weston
Rfn_Weston
1 month ago
Reply to  julian1

Looked like something my 4 year old would dream up. I groaned in the cinema.

julian1
julian1
1 month ago
Reply to  Rfn_Weston

they should have just shown SSN launched Tomahawk – nobody would have cared and at least it would have been feasible

Geoffi
Geoffi
1 month ago
Reply to  julian1

Pity they are ficticious…

eclipse
eclipse
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoffi

Any chance of Perseus being something like that?

BB85
BB85
1 month ago
Reply to  julian1

Incredible how they split into multiple warheads upon approach to defeat potential CIWS. I read Aster does have a secondary land attack capability but this takes it to a whole new level.

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  julian1

They seemed pretty useless, if they were going to bounce off a rather thin roof on the missile tower thing.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  john

You’re complaining about an issue that the RN and MoD have already begun addressing. But they can’t do the upgrades all six T45’s simultaneously, it’ll take time.

Quentin Drury
Quentin Drury
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

I’d like to see if they can squeeze in more CAMM six silos. My comment before my be a bit idiotic but could silos go on the hangar roof or is it too close to radar and aerials? Why aren’t they going go with the more space efficient 6*4 ExLS silos so you can get 48? I hope the T45s can always have a ASM/LAM fit. I think a lot of us here can see these beaut ships look underdone in the missile dept. ..but I am often taken in by appearances…

Meirion x
Meirion x
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

“…to increase the range and reach of the existing Sea Viper system.”

How can Sea Ceptor increase the range and reach of Sea Viper? SC has a much shorter range than the Aster missile. I suppose it is an additional 24 missiles to throw at shorter range stuff coming for it.

Last edited 1 month ago by Meirion x
James William Fennell
James William Fennell
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Dauntless is completing her upgrade at Cammel Laird, Daring has just begun hers. Duncan is refitting in advance of hers at Portsmouth, Dragon, Diamond and Defender are all on operations. I doubt they can do it any quicker without compromising air defence for the carriers. It’s only a problem in hot conditions.

Last edited 1 month ago by James William Fennell
Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago

Thank you for the update, air defence for the carriers from partner nations spring to mind along with upgraded missile silos at the same time!

DP
DP
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

I’d agree with you Nigel. “It is currently unknown what the issue is, let’s not jump to any conclusions” is a fair statement to make but, whether it is propulsion related or not, the T45 is building a reputation, perception based or truth based. The PIP project needs putting at the top of any RN priority list, the delays we’ve seen in Birkenhead need to be resolved rapidly and we need to accelerate the rate of the programme. We need to show our Allies the T45 will be as reliable (if not more reliable) than anything they can bring to… Read more »

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  DP

Agreed!

Quentin Drury
Quentin Drury
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

And the Italians will have their new DDXs in service by the end of this decade! What about a couple of modified AAW versions of these?

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Quentin Drury

Because adding yet another class of warship in addition to the existing T45, T23, and forthcoming T26, T32 just increase the logistic, maintenance, and training overheads.
Having a small number of ships with proprietary systems is a financial nightmare, just ask the USN about the Zumwalts.

Quentin Drury
Quentin Drury
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Hi Sean, I was thinking of have a British built version with as much British and T45 equipment compatibility as possible… or build two more stretched T45s with T26 Mk 41 silo block added in with the six Aster silos and Camm silos. They clould probably build two new ships before all the problems are fixed on the current six.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Quentin Drury

At what about fixing all the issues that these new Italian DDXs will inevitably have, as all new warship designs do? Far better adding AAW T26s or T31s for commonality with the rest of the RN.

Quentin Drury
Quentin Drury
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

I was kind of indirectly making a comment that the Italians have designed something for into service at the end this the decade and the T83s are sometime in the 2030s. Seriously. Hopefully fix both the T45s and or bring the T83 schedule forward evennifvits a batch 1.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Quentin Drury

And how do you know the Italian destroyers won’t have worse issues than the T45? At least we know the T45 singular failing, the intercooler, and how to fix it. The T45s were designed with large capacity for future expansion, which is how the RN is able to add Sea Ceptor to them in addition to their existing missiles..

With the amount of electrical generation capacity they’ll have after the power-improvement programme to fix the intercooler issue, I wouldn’t be surprised to see them be the first RN ships equipped with lasers.

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

I don’t know the Italian’s history of reliability of their vessels, they may have more or less. They’ve got a naval pedigree plus a tendency to arm more heavily compared to the RN. Like a lot of people here have said, the T45s could have been more fully armed from the beginning. I guess politics, costs, scheduling, reduction in numbers, all had something to do with that and we have got to let the PIP conclude and go from there. We all seriously wish all concerned the best of British for that! With the lasers, I read they’re first testing… Read more »

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

The French and Italian’s went with the tried and tested GT’S, if they had any serious problems would we be in a position to know about it, anyone know?.

AlexS
AlexS
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul T

They don’t have problems with their vessels. Fincantieri is the 6th or 7th shipbuilding company in the world and the biggest in Europe. They are the biggest shipbuilder in Western world if you don’t count Korea and Japan as part of it. For military ships propulsion they only apply tested concepts. They are speculative in small merchant vessels, like methane propulsion, etc. The PPA bow was tested in some ferrys for Norway. I should note that the bungled T45 is something that appears linked to the speculative US culture period of LCS and Zummwalt failures. I wonder if the close… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by AlexS
AlexS
AlexS
1 month ago
Reply to  AlexS

I think the increase in size of Italian DDX will mean they will put 2 MT30 in it. I don’t see them putting 3-4 LM2500 there.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul T

Plenty of things that can go wrong on a ship aside from the power-plants and engines. The top-heavy listing German frigates being a good example…

AlexS
AlexS
1 month ago
Reply to  Quentin Drury

Those Italian DDG(X) are supposed to be AAW with ABM capability.

Since RN uses same AAW missiles as MM there would not be any problem.

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago
Reply to  AlexS

Fantasy Fleet time for me (apologies) but if i had my way id order 2 DDX now to perform the same duties as a Tico does with the USN Carrier Groups – so each UK Carrier would have 1 x DDX (AAW Lead + ABM) 2 x Type 45 ( AAW) 2 x Type 23/26 ( ASW ) + the obvious Support Ships etc.

AlexS
AlexS
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul T

It would be great but i think would need more ASW vessels. 2 T26 seem thin.

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago
Reply to  AlexS

True – you can never have too many ASW Specialist Ships in a Carrier Group but from what information is available the DDX would have vastly superior ASW Capability than the Type 45, which could supplement the Type 26’s.

James William Fennell
James William Fennell
1 month ago
Reply to  Quentin Drury

Maybe the design will be in the mix for Type 83?

Marked
Marked
1 month ago

Sounds like a floating dry Dock facility needs to sail with this ship!

Jon
Jon
1 month ago
Reply to  Marked

Yes, she could be shadowed with diligence…

Daddy Mack
Daddy Mack
1 month ago

Nothing to worry about, we have plenty of spare destroyers to pick up the slack

Angus
Angus
1 month ago
Reply to  Daddy Mack

Should have kept the T42’s going until the T45’s actually worked. Shocking vessels in so many ways outside the weapon system which is spot in (when its got power). Poor design overall having served on two of them….

Anyone got some spare batteries???????

Mark B
Mark B
1 month ago
Reply to  Angus

Would you not have been worried by the lack of fire power on the type 42?

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Angus

I assume you’d want to retain the T42’s to tow the T45’s? Combining the T42’s working engines with the T45’s armaments you’d have the best of both… though the manning costs would be a nightmare.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Good luck trying to power an IEP ship with the DG sets off a T42. The engines on a T45 produce electricity to turn the drive motor attached to the shafts. T42 had Tyne and Oly GTs driving a gearbox to turn the shafts. A Completely different drive train. As a T45 is IEP almost everything is electrically powered unlike a T42. So hot water and fresh water on a T42 was donkey boilers and evaps. T45 is RO and water heaters… There was a hydraulic ring main on a T42. Valves where manually operated. DGs needed for electric power… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

I think you missed my sarcasm at the concept of retaining the obsolete T42’s as Angus was suggesting… 🤷‍♂️

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Sorry shippers…answered the wrong post…it was aimed at Angus!

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

No worries, just surprised as I normally agree completely with what you post! Clearly you have a lot of practical knowledge and experience on the subject, unlike the hysterical merchants of doom that troll here.

Johan
Johan
1 month ago
Reply to  Angus

remind me what powered the type 42s and who stopped providing tech support or spares on these Engines. which led to the death bell of our carriers. No serviceable engines.

Geoffi
Geoffi
1 month ago

Utterly embarassing. Yet still we give BAE Systems billions…

Morgan_2011
Morgan_2011
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoffi

Not really the fault of BAE. The original specification was a ship that could operate in the cold Atlantic region….. the breakdowns relating to engine performance tail off in warmer climates which was something that RR warned of. This was why BAE wanted to use an American (proven) turbine that had already had hundreds in service with military and civilian ships worldwide because they knew the ships would go everywhere. The political move was to choose the more expensive RR option to support UK industry. RR are also not to blame as they met the “Atlantic” spec…. Think of it… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoffi

This is a fault with an American intercooler. Not built by BAE.

Slothnado
Slothnado
1 month ago
Reply to  John Hartley

The very 1st line of the article says, “The issue is not related to the propulsion and power systems.” However it’s not obvoius how George knows what it isn’t if he doesn’t know what it is.

Lusty
Lusty
1 month ago
Reply to  Slothnado

Straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak:

https://twitter.com/TimHutchins8/status/1450015057983639552

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 month ago

HMG need to get a move on with type 45 😴

Rob
Rob
1 month ago

We look like fools, and this is not the time to look like fools. FIX IT. Understand nature of problem and fix it. Then fix the others in class because they will suffer the same defect.

James William Fennell
James William Fennell
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob

We look even greater fools if most of our ships are tied up alongside as they have been for the past decade. A higher tempo operations mean that there will be higher profile techincal problems now and again – Hermes limped out of port towards the Falklands in 1982 on one engine, it had to be fixed at sea.

rob
rob
1 month ago

True. Invincible needed an engine change down south too. But my point, if this is same old – same old engine trouble, then someone needs to get a grip and sort it. I know ships break, but this type KEEPS breaking and root cause seems to come back to engines. Given that persistent narrative, I’d expect the powers that be bear down and put it to bed and stop the theme of Type 45 as a jinxed and failing type.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  rob

Gearbox wasn’t it?

Johan
Johan
1 month ago

Invincible left on one Engine, Hermes old school

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 month ago

Ships systems break. Its not a situation unique to T45. Plenty of T23 vessels have been stuck alongside for equipment defects. Some of the defects may appear to be minor but the effect on OC is huge until they are repaired. If its a defect that means she had to go alongside then it is a loss of Operational Capability that cannot be lived with by the Command or repaired at sea. Things that put you alongside in peacetime would be things such as , for the ME world, Fridge /Freezer defects, RO plant, Sewage system, AC systems. which obviously… Read more »

rob
rob
1 month ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

You make a good point. But the huge Navy we had in the past helped “hide” these types of problems because we always had good availability and OC. With the bare bones fleet we are now stuck with, these defects make bigger media noises and put our OC, assumptions of our capability and overall effectiveness under the magnifying glass.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 month ago
Reply to  rob

We only know of these issues thanks to social media and twitter. Warships have always broken down with a huge list of possible causes. Back in the day, you simply didn’t know what or when vessels had to go alongside to be fixed. And todays RN has a very strong record of fleet availability, especially when you look at the global operations the RN is currently engaged with.

Steve
Steve
1 month ago

The moral of the story is no other navy has bought this partricular engine set-up – only 6 ship-sets (plus whatever they have ashore to train crews?).

Whereas the MT30 is going from strength to strength – as are the deisels from RR – and the various electric combinations from Alastrom (amongst others).

WR21 political?

Geoffi
Geoffi
1 month ago

Went to an airshow in Germany a few years back. There was a RN Merlin on static display, and the crew were chatting with passers by. I took a few minutes with the pilot myself. Asked him his honest opinion on the T45. Pulled an angry face and said “its a piece of crap”

At £1bn apiece. Over 10 years ago.

Dont care about Gumbuster’s PR anymore, fact is we’ve been sold 6 very expensive turkeys that we cannot rely on when the baloon goes up…

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoffi

How about we bring back type 42 🙄

rob
rob
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew D

Yes because Sheffield and Coventry we great platforms for air defence….I was there. Even with their contemporary weapons – not so good, at all.

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 month ago
Reply to  rob

Salute you rob

rob
rob
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew D

Cheers Andrew. HMS Broadsword here.

Trevor W Hogg
Trevor W Hogg
1 month ago
Reply to  rob

Broadsword calling Danny Boy, Broadsword calling Danny Boy, Sorry could not resist

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew D

Or not…

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoffi

Maybe you should check the operational tempo of the T45 fleet over the last few years. As an AAW Destroyer, It’s world class. And that Turkey you talk about is trusted to defend Nimitz class carrier’s, because it has capabilitys the USN escort fleet doesn’t have.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoffi

So a TripAdvisor rating of 1* then.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoffi

Yeah a helicopter pilot is bound to be an expert on naval architecture…

As I recall HMS Rodney had clapped out engines… yet when allied upon she still demolished Bismark.

At launch a certain HMS Victory had a distinct list to starboard and was so overweight she sat so deep in the water her lowest set of gunports were not to be opened in rough weather. Yet she proved her worth.

The T45’s are reliable under most sub-tropical conditions. And when the upgrades are complete should be good in all conditions… whereas Victory’s issues were never actually fixed.

AlexS
AlexS
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Bismarck was crippled running in circles and slowed by several damage…

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  AlexS

Bismark was shredded by Rodney’s 16inch shells.

Alabama Boy
Alabama Boy
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

After air power had damaged her rudders enabling the chasing Home fleet to close her position, not run for aircover and not evade their broadsides. Its still a moot point about what exactly caused Bismarck to sink. She was a floating wreck but her design comprising many closed compartments made her very difficult to sink. German survivors claim they opened the sea cocks to scuttle her.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Alabama Boy

But you’re completely missing the point 🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️… that ships have ALWAYS been less than perfect, sometimes with permanent deficiencies and always with temporary issues. But in most cases their crews are still able to make creditable use of them as history proves.

You’re raising the air-power contribution just exemplifies this further. The Swordfish biplanes flown by the FAA were obsolete, but the crews still managed to inflict serious damage to Bismark despite this.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoffi

No PR… Its personal experience and insight on what living and working on RN warships is like from my early years as a maintainer to my later years as a Warrant Officer system engineer/SME and department manager. The amount of OpDef (defect reports) signals from the Weapon Engineers per ship, per year is usually in the 100-200 bracket with more than that on a long deployment. Stuff breaks. Some of it is fixable at sea using your own or task group stores. Some isn’t. You can live with the defect, work around it or go alongside to fix it. That… Read more »

Johan
Johan
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoffi

A Pilot of a Merlin a few years Ago, A KNOB JOCKEY talking ships, YEAH RIGHT ONLY ONE TURKEY MATE, couple of years ago he was RAF

Andy Reeves
Andy Reeves
1 month ago

maybe its time we had a type 45 hospital built

Rob
Rob
1 month ago

HMS Diamond is rapidly becoming a rough diamond. Why is Diamond breaking down and Defender not?

Answers on a post card to the Admiralty.

Paul T
Paul T
1 month ago
Reply to  Rob

That is the one question that should be asked – is HMS Diamond simply a victim of bad luck or are there issues specific to her ,the answer would be interesting.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago

All ships and boats need regular maintain and things always break down. The sea is a harsh environment, when you consider the dynamic stresses ships have to handle as well as all that sea water your not ever sailing a whole bunch of ships around the world without something going wrong. The only real issue with the type 45 ( apart from the intercooler issue) is there are to few for what is needed. if your looking at a Carrier battle group that needs 2 as a minimum the rule f three says you need 6 hulls just for that.… Read more »

Barry Larking
Barry Larking
1 month ago

‘The issue is not related to the propulsion and power systems.’ Almost every comment below disputes this explanation. One even suggests she needs a tug! My best guess is a major computer malfunction. The Tyne 45’s are doing a awful lot considering there are so few of them. Off the cuff remarks don’t help ship’s companies morale. I hope they don’t read them. The Coalition government of Cameron, Clegg and Osbourne slashed defence spending beginning in 2010. We have lost indigenous capacity and lack a sustainable national industrial strategy due to incompetent leadership, military as well as political. No one… Read more »

geoff
geoff
1 month ago

My previous comments have disappeared from this thread so thanks for your comments David and Lusty

Lusty
Lusty
1 month ago
Reply to  geoff

No worries chap – it looks like they have returned now!

Mike
Mike
1 month ago

I have enjoyed reading a lot of comments regarding how the Army procurement process is so bad. At least the Army stopped Ajax, the RN carried on and bought 6 unreliable ships into service at a much greater overall cost, and it would seem the problem is still not fixed…..Standing by to get gripped now 😁

Bill
Bill
1 month ago

What a joke these ‘state of the art’ T45s are!

Steven Alfred Rake
Steven Alfred Rake
1 month ago

May be the RN should hire a fleet of tugs that could deploy with the T45s or have the Carriers (QE + PoW) tow the T45s around with them so that the T45 do not have to power-up their engines, If you try to join the Forces with a dodgy ticker you get told thanks but no thanks, and yet the MoD insisted that the RN accept into service fundamentally floored class of vessel. HMS Diamond is supposed to be on the maiden deployment of HMS Q.E. showing off Briton at is best, What a joke!! The Chinese and the… Read more »

Jacko
Jacko
1 month ago

Right then the article plainly states it’s not down to the engines for the problem at the moment. As for calling these ships an embarrassment,the generators have been identified as a problem and is being fixed,as far as I can see only one inter cooler has failed. Has anyone of you slagging the ships off ever served on one?
It looks to me as if they are very much working as advertised at the moment.

Steven Alfred Rake
Steven Alfred Rake
1 month ago
Reply to  Jacko

Hello Jacko, Well you could not have done a lot of work on one as you don’t do too much tied up along side waiting for BAE to sort out the problems. The long and the short of it is that the T45s should have been fixed on the slips when the problem was identified, but the RN was forced to accept into service faulty equipment knowing that if the T45s ever did get in to a real war they are likely to fail. I just wonder in these years of the blame game how the MoD would stack up… Read more »