HMS Prince of Wales repair cost likely to be £20 million

I’m a civilian but was lucky enough to be given a guided tour of PoW a couple of years ago and actually ended up standing right next to the starboard mount. They’re a bit more difficult to pick out as all pow phalanx are painted grey rather than the white you usually see. I think QEs are a mix of white and grey.
On martlet, I’m not sure if that’s moving ahead, last tests seem to have been 2019 and I don’t know if any have been fitted to any active ships.

Cheers. It would be nice for the carriers to have the Martlets installed on the 30mm. Although, having a rolling airframe installed would be better.

I’d go one further and fit the mk4 bofors that type 31 is getting. Longer reach than the 30mm, similar reach to martlet and you’re lobbing a half dozen down range. Unmanned mount, 120 rounds stored locally, they look to be pretty useful.

The RN is one step ahead, hopefully. It looks like they are looking to buy loitering munitions. Link to Uk defence journal article. Apologies if you already know about it.

The RN is looking at loitering munitions. I tried to post it but got removed, even though it was linked to an article on this site. The article is “Royal Navy seeking ‘loitering munitions’ for ships”. I do apologise if you get another message.

I agree I think the mk4 Bofors should be the standard CIWs for all our escorts and major surface units…a very effective weapon system that provides very good close in AAW as well as effective ASuW for small boat swarms. Not sure if it could also replace the 30mm DS30 mounts but if it could that would be idea removing two weapons systems ( DS30m and phalanx) for one system would probably save money in the longer term even if the was a large capital outlay…and a type 45 or 26 with 4 Mk4 Bofors would be a nastier and well as better protected beastie.

The Port Phalanx is kind of in the way of the 30mm mount there taking some of its arc of fire away. They may need to move it a touch or put another mount more forward on top of or to the side of the flight deck. 3-4 40mm with CAMM-ER and or Dragonfire would be pretty useful too even within a CSG.

I hate to bring up anything related to the A word but the French Navy is standardising around the Thales Rapidfire with the CTAS40 cannon as CIWS on all platforms. Could presumably drop in anywhere that currently houses or is planned to house DS30, Phalanx or Bofors Mk 4 although probably not worth touching the T23s at this point. Obviously, the Bofors is a capable and proven system, but part of me wonders whether that would be a better solution for the RN given the advantages in the number of rounds that can be carried per turret and the standardisation with the French and hopefully also with the Army if they put the CTAS40 on other platforms. The more guns that are in service, the more the ammunition price will come down.

In theory yes, but my understanding is that the key element of the CTA 40 has yet to be funded. The air burst ammo I think remains just a plan. The development to my knowledge has not been funded by either the French or Brits. Without an air burst munition the gun does not have the operational advantage of the Bofors 3P ammo. Even if it was funded, it would be triggered by a time fuze, like the 35mm Millennium gun, which in my book isn’t as good as a prox fuze. I’m open to being corrected on this.

Good point I had not noticed that are are starting to move ahead with the A3B round, which is what really limited the CTAS, It would be a good future option.

The MK4 Bofors mount should prove very useful going forward but it is not a dedicated CIWS system,it uses information sourced from extenal Radar sensors and EO mounts for it’s firing solutions,completely different from Phalanx and previously Goalkeeper.As Daniel says below the Thales RapidFire System is much more capable as a CIWS option.

2x 40 Bofors with 3P ammo and 2x Sea Ceptor please (for my fantasy CIWS :). But seriously lives being put at ris adn 5BN=10BN GBP platfortm for say a few 10’s of million of cost of implementing proper CIWS. Can’t seem to find a way to attach an image with potential arcs and distances anymore

I don’t see why a Bofors mount can’t have a radar director controlling it.

The Martlet/30mm combo never progressed further than trials on HMS Sutherland,it’s reasonable to assume that issues were found ( efflux from Rocket Motors for one ) that prevented the idea being taken forward.

You clearly have no idea of the history of the T45 power problems.
The ships were designed to operate in all climatic conditions, however the intercoolers would obviously not perform as well in hot tropical conditions as in cooler climates (hint, they’re called intercoolers). However their performance was specified as to “degrade gracefully”, as in the performance would decline slowly as the ambient temperatures increased.
However it practice the intercoolers were found to have a design flaw that could see them degrade catastrophically in some tropical conditions under certain workloads, resulting in an unacceptable power-loss.
Instead of doing a knee-jerk reaction, as you’d probably prefer, the RN looked at various engineering options for resolving this. There was no viable direct replacement for the LM intercoolers, and replacing the RR gas-turbines that used the intercoolers was not an option. So instead the decision was made to replace the 2 current diesel generators with 3 larger capacity units. This project, the “Power Improvement Project” (PIP) was contracted in 208. Two of the destroyers have been upgraded, 1 in in process, and the remaining 3 will be done by the mid 2020s.
Since the problem was identified and diagnosed, the specific operating procedures were issued to ensure that even without the fix, a power-failure should not occur.

The power-train used on the T45 is not being used on either of the following classes of ships being built, the T25 and T31.

Its a shame you were not involved with the design of the T45 as you’re clearly perfect in your job and never make mistakes.

I imagine you’re equally enraged about another currently commissioned RN vessel that was found to have serious issues even before launch. Unbelievably this jinxed ship was built too wide for the gates of the dry-dock she was built in. Then once on the water it was found to have a distinct list to starboard. More worryingly she sat in the water far lower than she was designed to which meant that she was unable to use some weapons systems in rough seas. No surprise the vessel was immediately mothballed for 13 years before being finally put to use.
However after only 20 years service, this ship was found to be unseaworthy and required major reconstruction, the cost of which was triple the original estimate.
The name of this procurement disaster?… HMS Victory

PMSL but Spot on. people quick to moan if there not fit, and yet still moan if the fix is rushed and done twice

Ok T45s failures increased with age, and the program of repairs were to correspond with major works. so building that Budget into the Navy’s accounts takes time, POWs blew a Universal joint like 1000s of cars do every day. and rather than rush in and cut open the T45s they wanted the fix test run to prove it worked 1st. 2 Carriers was always to have one online and one in reserve. ?????? so who is the right one

You can’t call the second build of anything other than a prototype. They aren’t identical ships; for example PoW is longer and wider than QE.
This is because lessons were learned in building QE that were applied to PoW resulting in her build being faster and cheaper.
Only on a production line are you going to see identical products with faults eliminated, and even on highly automated ones there will be products that will fail.

The causal issue was know about but it was still within the design tolerances specified. As a result PoW was cleared and subsequently successfully completed her sea trials and was commissioned into the RN. It was only in service that cumulative issues arose through use.

It’s clear that either
• the tolerances specified in the requirements were too generous and not sufficiently strict enough
• the tolerances weren’t met and this was covered up.

In stating the second of these possibilities you’re accusing people of fraud. Do you have any proof to back up this allegation of criminality?
If not, let’s hope for your sake the builders lawyers aren’t reading this.

Actuality QE/POWs are the same external dimensions, BUT POWs is heavier. if you take the RN dims on POWs its to wide to get out the basin

As someone has already stated they are the same dimensions so you are incorrect on that point and Im going to use a word I dont really like using but Im assuming you have no experience in shipbuilding for the defence industry chiefly the RN. One of my jobs after leaving the Royal Navy was as a Weapon/Electrical Naval Overseer and I can assure you that the first of build is, and I use this in inverted commas ” a prototype” though technically it is not and shipbuilders learn from first build of class to improve on build of subsequent ships. Unlike tanks and aircraft it would be too costly for a shipbuilder to build a prototype at risk and then sell that concept to the RN. Also you’re saying that 2 builds of something are prototypes, that is true in the big wide world of manufacturing but definitely RN ships. As for the legal beagles from BAE Im sure they are not really bothered by a comment made which is just pure speculation on my behalf.

And they were wrong.
PoW is approximately a meter longer and wider.

2 in Class, look at the Ford Class that still cannot cycle its air wing. Both Designed to the same plans. so if there is a design flaw and there was in QE it followed over into POws. Remember QE had vibration on a shaft that cracked its mounts. QE flooded, twice like POWs. QE was stopped before it ripped its shaft out. Pows wasn’t

“puf”, “ard nog”, “othef” ?!?!?!?

Are you drunk?

Understand the Procurement phase, Procurement doesn’t create the issue, people interfering do once the contract is won, Ajax Won its compertion Army top brass then stuck 20 tons on it and broke it

Step up and and do procurement, then we can all BLAME YOU and see how you like it.

Why post on here in this story, as you have stated many times these stories are of no interest and you only like to push your shite out on Russian led stories! Or, as we all can see it’s an effort at pretending to be impartial and able to comment on humdrum UK mil stories! Anyway, while you’re here, any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine yet? Tell you what, you don’t have to condemn it, just type “Putin is a bell-end nonce” and your credentials may have risen slightly……….

There’s no adverse publicity about a RN ship being repaired. It’s not as if it sank or caught fire in the dry dock. Or, not as adverse as the 200 000 plus military casualties from a failed invasion of a sovereign nation, or the thousands of warcrimes committed during the course of that invasion by Russia. Now that’s adverse publicity.

You truly have no idea about Marine manufacturing you muppet. £20 million is daylight robbery.

“Dumb person” to be fair I’m not surprised that you spell it correctly. Stoopid is as stoopid does.

do you know how much? the small vessel i worked on in a dock down cost 100k for 2 weeks on the dry docking alone. Of the 250k spent we had 100k was spent on works done (new equipment repairs painting new anodes etc.) the rest on scaffolding use of cranage, washing the hull (preps painting). inspections , testing etc etc etc. Im just giving a basic reply im sure i may have the PDF of our dock down somewhere with all the pictures before after etc. Gunbuster has knows more on the RN dry docking than me and he seems to agree 20mil is about right.

We dock down up to 400k ton VLCC ships and smaller container ships every 10 days for Graving dock work.

I have put smaller military ships into the dock for extensive planned maint repairs. If you include the cost of spares its a fair price. For most USN ships the spares are Govt Furnished so we dont see the cost of them and they dont get included in our totals. Spares are a hefty chunk of cash.

Oh no call a doctor. Tom has split personality disorder and is arguing with himself🙈

Truth Hurt Buttercup, Dont Breed as they will become a number on a council clip board needing special needs

Thanks David. If the manufacturer imposed a use limitation and the Captain ignored it, that is bad.

Thanks. That’s bad news.

Carrier Consortium, disbanded in name but MOD still has a retention on the Carriers and Monies held based on targets

Thanks Tom. Then PoW should not have passed her sea trials, in my book.

Well they knew things weren’t ideal but things were still within tolerances and caused no issues during trials. It sounds like when tolerances were defined they were too generous with regard to the cumulative effect.

Things take time to Bed In. maybe they gambled on them settling

I’m glad you can spell True not like my ture, relying to much on spell check or fingers and thumbs too big for the keyboard 😅🤣

Ex-M
I’d gracefully point out that George has had to spend many days of his life disproving the Portsmouth Live “truths”
They’ve become a laughing stock really with some of the stories they’ve posted relating to the Navy, Jesus last year they repeated a claim on twitter and in print that all the T45s were laid up in Pompy only to have a tweet from Defender sunning in the med

What part is wrong they knew the props were out of line. I should have said before it was commissioned and hand over to the Royal Navy (Happy Now) doesn’t change the fact they knew.

Again they were not out of align at launch, if you remember QE hit a obstacle and dislodged hers and only found by accident. Grammar and Spelling is shocking. But guess your a expert pratt. and leave it at that.

F.O.

Whats Up Buttercup. Truth Hurts. Short Bus for the Tard

You seem to have a opinion about everything but you are still wrong, about them not knowing check the link on a comment further up in relation to the newspaper story.

I don’t think propellers are all that useful on a recce tank.
More likely savings going to raise pension saving tax rate, fixing pot holes and a big super computer.

The article makes it clear the national flag ship was not a royal yacht and that term aas only used by opponents of the program, unfortunately the misrepresentation stuck.

Cheers Geoff. That’s only true if you exclusively listen to the Ukrainian propaganda machine. Not everyone supported the 2014 coup by euro friendly and right wing factions, to overthrow the government. The replacement Ukrainian government called those disenchanted people separatists but who were they?

Answer, ethnic Romani, Rusyns, russians and russian speakers who had previously voted unanimously to become part of the new Ukraine. So why did they decide to change their minds and seek independence?
Unpack that answer my friend and things become easier to understand. The population was polarised by external pressure. Far from being united, Ukraine has been torn apart along ethnic and regional lines.

As you rightly argue, Putin invaded and tried to seize Kiev to impose Russian rule. That was wrong and a huge mistake. A breach of international law etc etc. Had he limitted his military involvement to protecting the “separatists” as defined above. This mess could have been avoided. Do you follow my logic.

I dislike the term separatists because in Ukraine it is hard to determine who separated from whom. I now realise that trying to answer that question requires opening a can of worms. Pandora’s Box would be a better analogy. Full of current and historical hatreds, former ill deeds and injustices. Committed by mostly dead and gone demonic individuals. It is easier to focus on the more recent ill deeds, such as the attempts to outlaw the Russian language in regions where it was spoken. But even that is difficult to ascertain due to contradictory reports. The originals written by Amnesty International would appear to be accurate but they were rapidly amended or simply struck from the records by western interests.

The Gordian Knot of the former Yugoslavia was easier to understand. The solution to the Ukrainian knot is likely to be the same one Alexander the Great found in 333 BC. He split it in half with his sword.

As you say the problem is that there is a population in Eastern Ukraine who feel themselves to belong culturally to the Russian people i.e. they speak Russian as their native tongue, they attend the Russian Orthodox church, they teach their children Russian songs and fables, they have family in Russia.
By contrast the west of Ukraine is culturally Catholic and leans towards Poland. In the middle is Kyiv, a city which was evangelised before Moscow and until the 17c when it was conquered by Moscow was the seat of an independent Patriarch of the Orthodox church; a situation which was only restored by an ecumenical council held in Istanbul in 2019. This provoked the fury of the Russian Orthodox church and the more outright Russian aggression. The villain of the piece is Kirill, Moscow Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox church, former KGB buddy of Putin and the man whose support and de-facto leadership of the Russian people”s soul, keeps Putin in power.
Apart from the the Russian minority in the East, Ukrainians have a visceral hatred of Russian communism which dates from the 1930s when Stalin’s collectivisation idealogy condemned millions of Ukrainians to starvation.
Crimea was all about access to the Black Sea.
https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

Hi Paul really interesting take on the religious schism angle…I had not considered the potential influence of kirill,(who is actually quite influential) and your right from his background he would happily move a schism into violence. Like all of these areas of confluence of ethnic and religious groups left over after the fall of a multiethnic empire getting down to the drivers of conflict can be more complex than it first appear….although that does not lessen the fact it generally takes a power mad authoritarian with a nasty case narcissism and no empathy to kick the bloodbath off.

Afternoon Jonathan; well as the saying goes, all roads lead to Constantinople. I agree with your point about Putin’s narcissism. If I recall correctly the invasion of Crimea took place at about the time Putin divorced his wife which triggered a series of high profile macho bareback horse riding appearances. We are dealing with a badly bruised ego who is being manipulated by Kirill. Many priests of the Russian Orthodox outside Russia have left the umbrella of the Moscow patriarch for the newly independent Kyiv patriarch. They can see that Kirill is the anti-Christ. Interestingly, as a sign of national unity, the Ukrainian Orthodox church this year decided to align their Christmas day ( Jan 6) with that of the Catholic church, who of course use Dec 25.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46768270

Yes I remember that. It’s very worrying that there is an underlying religious angle as well….mixing or ethnic groups and religious schism at the fault line of two powers ( I think we are actually seeing the codification of an anti liberal democracy/western power group…led by and including china and russia, with china as the hegemonic power) is likely to mean any peaceful resolution is not coming before the exhaustion of will of one of the power groups.

Its very tragic for Ukraine and probably in time for many other nations as well.

It also probably means when you get down to all the drivers…ethnic, religious and the growing tension between the west and this new power block that removal of Putin will not end the problem and Ukraine will remain a flash point along a power fault line for a very long time to come ( I think I’ve just depressed myself).

Its important to understand the influence of the Orthodox Church in Russian culture. Russian people practise their Christianity. Despite a century of communism ( on one weekend in the 1930s Stalin ordered the burning down of 500 churches in Moscow) Orthodox Christians outnumber atheists by 5:1 and Muslims by 10:1. Russians love their country and their faith – which I respect by the way. Putin and Kirill are an unholy alliance. Unlike Stalin, Putin relies on the church to support him. For him it embodies what Greater Russia once was, part of the identity of a fading empire. True religion ( James 1:27) is  “to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world” – not creating widows and orphans

Thanks for the reply Paul. The religious aspect is very important. You can add the muslim population mostly living in Crimea to that list too. Not forgetting the Chechen mujahideen militias fighting for both sides. They have been implicated in sexual war crimes by both sides too.

More important than religious friction, there is the underlying battle between the two groups of oligarchs from Russia and Ukraine. They are the true puppeteers behind Zelensky and Putin. Follow the money! Luhansk and Donetsk being heavily industrialised, were prizes worth fighting over it seems. As were the substantial grain harvests. Natural gas and oil deposits around crimea being the cherry on top!.

As I said, it makes the former Yugoslavia spaghetti western simple by comparison. The fact that the Ukrainian border is 4 hours drive from the outskirts of Moscow, adds a little hot spice to the plot.

Russia under whatever leader you care to mention, did not want NATO (read United States of America) that close militarily. I for one can respect that view. The fact that NATO is ostensibly a defensive organisation is lost on Russia. But in this case, its their perception that matters. They view the EU in the same way, possibly classing that quango as an even bigger threat. With its flag, national anthem and now it’s virgining united military force, over and above that of NATO. Being a Brexiteer I fully understand that view too.

There are so many layers to this puzzle. Little wonder people have resorted to high explosives to settle things. I imagine at first it appeared the simplest solution. More the fool Putin. He is no Stalin and these are not the 1930s.

It’s good to have an adult conversation about this without hurling personal insults at each other. Who knows, the trend may catch on.

I agree that ‘follow the money’ is often the way to understand motivation for conflicts. Also agree that puppeteers are always active.
What seems to have happened is that, under the influence of the above and the failure of Ukrainian authorities to implement some sort of acceptable devolved government solution the 2015 Minsk agreement Russian separatists took to violence and were supported by Putin. It happens all over the world. The IRA will never accept that devolved assembly is the answer for NI. This last week a minister in the Israeli government said that there is no such thing as the Palestinian people. The Indian government has just switched off the internet and mobile networks to foil the activities of Sikh separatists in the Punjab. Whenever you try to suppress the sense of cultural identity of a people you can expect conflict when they realise that they have a right to exist – and you can expect that evil forces will try to take advantage. The gang warfare in Belfast is enabled by sectarianism; the gang warfare in Dublin is enabled by the conflict between catholicism and liberal democracy.
Now, in my opinion, the reason that Ukraine could not implement the Minsk agreement was that various factions were fighting for control of a newly reborn Ukraine which was still trying to find its identity – the Istanbul edict of 2019 which affirmed the independence of a Ukrainian Orthodox church centred on Kyiv reversed what happened in 1686 when Moscow conquered Kyiv. So what happened in 2019 was that a newly resurrected Ukraine was in a sense ‘christened’ – it had its right to exist affirmed by the people who the bulk of the community accepts has authority to do this – the Orthodox church. Now they are fighting for their lives. Nations come into being through struggle. There is no other way.

The question of NATO and the Russian view of the near abroad was always going to be a sticky wicket…and one that Putin has harness to great effect. It’s been very easy for him to sell a story of the west attacking Russia, even though it’s total bollox the reality does not matter in these cases only perception and point of view…like all evil bastards before him he has been very clever at harnessing this for his own gain…trouble is if you keep telling a story ( of the threat of the west) and your an authoritarian at some point you have to follow through with war and violence to keep the your population sucking up the story (Putin was was always heading for a war and in fact needs the west to be the enemy). Hopefully like many before him he will reap that whirlwind ( but unfortunately probably not before many more hundreds of thousands die).

my personal belief is that NATO needed to be a hell of a lot more hard line early on with other transgressions…the chemical weapon attack on the UK should have been meet with a hard wall of sanctions that effectively cut Russia off……yes we were not going to war over it with another nuclear power..but the reality is we could have and we could have taken NATO with us…that would have been unreasonable..but we should have had a very serious discussion with the other NATO nations about almost blanket sanctions as a price for not moving forward with treaty obligations and triggering article 5…as it was that and other weak responses had convinced Putin the west has no will and that has had and will have long term consequences and risk. The truth is national governments don’t assassinate political enemies with a nerve agent ( it’s not the most effective or efficient way to do it) in a foreign nation unless you are making a point to that nation about power and who got it.

unfortunately I do think we are now at a point where the west is probably almost certain to be going to war with a sino Russian power block….there are to many trigger points with two much at stake..if it’s not the mess of ethic tensions clashing with Russian nationalism and western democratic values in Easter Europe it will be Taiwan and Chinese belief in nation reunification…powered by Han exceptionalism and the wests need to keep access to Taiwans semi conductor industry.

I honestly believe we are head for a general war within the next 5 years and I don’t think there is a lot that can be done about it…the geopolitical tensions and plays have being going that way for 20 years and the West was to up its own (end of history) arse to realise.

I sincerely hope you are wrong but I fear for the near future too.

Thanks for your reply George. I enjoy exchanging views and opinions on the UKDJ even when we see things differently. Let’s hope the PoW is able to return to service asap.
Cheers froma muggy Durban-only 30 degrees but humid which makes it feel much worse!
ps Yugoslavia-the power of one man to preserve in President Tito!

I enjoy it too and wish people would be more civil. There is much more to the Ukraine/Russia conflict than meets the eye. It’s not simply a bully state attacking it’s peace loving kitten like neighbour. As is being portrayed in the lamestream media. Real life is complex and quite often the very important matters at the root of the problem are concealed. A modicum of critical thinking is required when sifting through the propaganda.

If I don’t like my government should I try and kill everyone who disagrees with me. These separatists stood in the elections. They got less votes than the monster Raving looney party. But hey why let an election result get in the way. Must be fake news🙈

So now you accept the results of corrupt elections. Cherry picking is obviously your forte.
Ukraines last honest election was probably December 1991.

And Putin swore blind he wasn’t going to invade Ukraine last year. Russian & CCP promises & treaties are no more reliable than those Hitler made.

Curious how Putin is indited for genocide but Xi is not yet for crimes against the Uighurs.

He has more money & influence than Putin….

Indeed as a permanent member of the UN security council & signitory to the treaty guaranteeing Ukraine independance & security(as was Russia & the USA), we have responsabilities to Ukraine well beyond our NATO treaty. I don’t think we’ve given enough support, but held back Ukraine at the cost of more Ukrainian(& Rusian to some extent) lives.
Russia is behaving like a wife beater who tries to kidnap a divorced wife & conitnue beating her.
Not that we are beyond reproach.

If you think Fox News is an extremist media outlet, clearly you do not cast your net very far. I recommend a broader selection of background reading. Many non english publications have translated sections. India in particular gives a very interesting alternative opinion. Mainland China and Hong Kong are worth checking too.

Transparency International have Russia and Ukraine as the most corruptly perceived nations in Europe. See the corruption perceptions index for 2021 and 22. But the same can be said for any year you care to examine. The Balkan states used to be listed as quite bad but now it’s Russia and Ukraine. Like the other indexes it’s a broad overview of opinion.

As for the developing alliance between Russia, the CCP and others. Only time will tell if the shuttle diplomacy of Putin and Xi supports my prediction or yours. Russia has a vast wealth of natural resources to barter with, which could reduce mainland China’s dependency on shipping lanes. While insulating them from many sanctions. Which will inevitably follow their annexation by force, of Taiwan. Iran want to become a nuclear armed power. Both Russia and China can assist with that, further complicating policy decisions for the US and NATO be destabilising the Middle East. An opportunity that may prove too good to resist.

As for the moral compass and 1939 reference. May I remind you that GB went to war because both Hitler and Stalin invaded Poland, committing atrocities in the process. A short while later, the Western allies provided the USSR with weapons and other resources. Ultimately gifting them Poland and many other formerly free nations in the process. Not exactly a righteous outcome. I suggest national morals are best measured with elastic rather than something as accurate as a compass. Particularly when i comes to eastern european matters. Claiming that Ukraine has had democracy for ten years depends very much on one’s definition of democracy. They certainly do not have universal suffrage post 2014, when it comes to ethnic russian and rusyn minorities.

So should Ukraine be left to be destroyed under Russian occupation because it doesn’t fit your ideal of a democracy? The corruption that you refer to in Ukraine is likely a hangover from its period as being part of the Soviet Union, the desire of the Ukrainian people to be free of Russian corruption and influence and to tilt towards Western European ideals of plurality and transparency were the foundation of the 2014 Maiden revolution.

The corruption is indeed a leftover from the soviet state, no argument. The USSR could not have functioned without it.

Many would say the desire of the people in Ukraine to be free of corruption and all things soviet. Stretches back to the overwhelming majority who voted to separate from Russia and Moscow in December 1991. (The second referendum.)

Those were heady days filled with hope and optimism, when anything seemed possible. I forget the percentage who voted for Ukrainian independence but it was very high. (I remember reading about it at the time and could hardly believe my eyes.) There is a very good record of that vote by oblast, probably the last time there were true and fair elections in Ukraine. The eastern regions and Crimea were less in favour of independence but still voted for it.

The inescapable truth is that something changed afterwards to polarise the population along ethnic lines. Whatever that thing was, is at the heart of the current war. It needs to be addressed ASAP before a lasting peace can be achieved.

That you think the likes of Tucker Carlson isn’t extremist shows how far you’ve fallen down the rabbit hole and away from reality.
I’ll stick to actual news sources that employ reporters and investigative journalists, rather than opinionated celebrities that invent stories. I suggest you lookup the dictionary definitions of “fact” and “fiction” as you have difficulty distinguishing.

News sources in mainland China and Hong Kong are all state controlled now, in other words controlled by the propaganda unit of the CCP. In other words just like ‘news’ in Russia. The stories I have seen coming from both are laughably unrealistic to anyone with a brain cell.
Personally for foreign news I prefer 🇩🇪Der Speigel (their expose of the German military in January led to the defence ministers resignation), 🇺🇸 CNN, 🇫🇷 Le Monde, and of course Reuters who is by far the most impartial.

That’s not exactly an honest reflection of the facts, did you expect me not to check? Transparency International has Russia as the most corrupt European country ranked 137 globally with a score of 28.
Whereas Ukraine is ranked 116 and a score of 33.
More importantly, Ukraine is moving up the rankings, whereas Russia is becoming more corrupt.

That’s quite an achievement for Ukraine given that it’s spent the last 9 years trying to contain a foreign military power that has invaded and occupied 7% of its country. That it’s been able to spare the resource to tackle corruption is remarkable.

“As for the developing alliance…” blah blah blah hypothetical speculation.
Some alliance that won’t supply weapons to each other.

I see you don’t understand ethics. Outcome does not determine whether an action is righteous or moral, it is the intent that determines this. The U.K. and France’s decision to declare war on Nazi Germany ensured Poland and the other nations invaded did not remain under the yoke of Nazism. It’s regrettable that in freeing them of Nazism they weren’t able to prevent them from falling under the yoke of Communism.
However Communism was always destined to fail and collapse, due to its underlying ideology. Whereas Nazism used capitalism as a tool and there’s no guarantee it would have collapsed in time. In this regard, the modern CCP is closer to Nazism that Communism, which makes China far more dangerous than the USSR ever was.

Your morals may be elastic, which means they’re not morals at all. But fortunately the majority of the U.K. population have a moral compass, instinctively recognising right from wrong. As a result, support for Ukraine remains high and thankfully you remain in a very noisy but irrelevant fringe.

Ukraine does have universal suffrage, including for Russian speakers. Except for those areas controlled by Russia. What has changed on the ground since 2014, is that many ethnic Ukrainians in the South and East have switched from using Russian as their preferred language to using Ukrainian – the majority tend to be bilingual.

That you don’t think universal suffrage existed is yet another conspiracy theory.

While I’m here, do I need to explain to you why the earth isn’t flat?

Ad Hominem insults with very little content of note. Clearly not worth a proper reply. Come back when you have something credible to add.

I accept your surrender.

Surrender, my arse!

No thanks, I have no need for your fat, hairy arse.

Your surrender and withdrawal from trying to defend your position was sufficient.

That you even suggest taking a Chinese news source seriously says it all really. All independent media in Hong Kong is dead because of the NSL.

And Indian media… is terribly and a lot of it rather nationalistic. They love to play devil’s advocate, do no wonder you like them.

It’s important to keep a trans on what other news sources are reporting/saying, but that does not mean you should believe them.

Who said anything about taking it seriously?
I try to get the full spectrum of views and opinions. The ChiComs have an important part to play in all of this. Therefore what they spoon feed their people is … … interesting. The fact that you don’t want to know, says it all!

Didn’t work too well when that one fell of the end 😉
But seriously thanks for the reply I wasnt aware of some of the physics…still looks Heath Robinson though doesn’t it.

A wedge (ramp) is one of the earliest and simplest machines known to man.

Heath Robinsons Egyptian ancestor?