Italian Destroyer Andrea Doria has joined HMS Queen Elizabeth and her Carrier Strike Group.

The vessel, sharing some design heritage with the type 45 destroyer as you can see, will sail with the fleet for 10 days.

The vessel will effectively replace HMS Kent as the Type 23 Frigate heads off to work with Standing NATO Maritime Group Two to promote maritime security in the Mediterranean.

The Andrea Doria

The Andrea Doria is an Italian example of the Horizon class, a class with a similar origin to the Type 45 Destroyer as you can tel.

According to Naval Technology here:

“The programme started as the Common New Generation Frigate (CNGF), a multi-national collaboration to produce a new generation of air-defence frigates. In Italy the class is known as the Orizzonte class, which translates to “horizon” in French and English. The UK then joined France and Italy in the Horizon-class frigate programme; however, differing national requirements, workshare arguments and delays led to the UK withdrawing on 26 April 1999 and starting its own national project, the Type 45 destroyer.”

The class is in service with the French Navy and the Italian Navy.

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dan
dan
24 days ago

Better late than never I guess. lol

Nic
Nic
24 days ago

France Portugal Italy Spain should have ships attached to the group

Klonkie
Klonkie
24 days ago
Reply to  Nic

totally agree Nick- a NATO task force would be a good unified look

Delabatte
Delabatte
24 days ago
Reply to  Nic

France already has a CSG on sea + amphibious forces in South Atlantic and Pacific so I guess no vessel avaible for the Queen..

James Fennell
James Fennell
23 days ago
Reply to  Nic

Next up is an exercise with the French CdG Carrier Strike Group I believe, Portugal, Italy and Spain have all been involved in the previous two exercises off Sctoland and in the Atlantic. The idea is to have only Evertsen and The Sullivans from allied navies permanently attached, but others will join for specific legs or exercises. Expect to see many nations send ships to work with the CSG for a week or two along the way, while CSG21 ships are detached for courtesy visits, joint training or stints with other task forces. As for all the ruckus over Gibraltar,… Read more »

Last edited 23 days ago by James Fennell
Ron
Ron
23 days ago
Reply to  James Fennell

Stop over with a Carrier Battle Group and a SSN, if that not a message! I don’t know why but I keep thinking that the Carrier Battle Group should be based for operations in Gib. It could cover the Med, Mid Atlantic, get to the Falklands quicker. It could be seen as a more agressive stance. To get to the Falklands or the Eastern Med would be reduced by 3 days at 15 knots cruising. Three days does not sound like much but it can be the diffrence of winning or losing.

James Fennell
James Fennell
23 days ago
Reply to  Ron

Message to who? The Spanish are not our enemies, we have a mutual defence pact with them called NATO.

Meirion X
Meirion X
23 days ago
Reply to  Ron

The QE carrier requires a few megawatts of power just standing still.
Where does the power generated for Gib comes from, Spain?

Andrew
Andrew
23 days ago
Reply to  Ron

Who are we going to War with?

Mr G Walker
Mr G Walker
22 days ago
Reply to  Andrew

The Russians and Chinese. To name a few.

AlexS
AlexS
24 days ago

Now the task force has finally proper AA guns 🙂

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
24 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

Ok as a former 76 mm Super Rapid Oto Melara Level 3 Base Maintainer and System Instructor I’ll bite… A gun is only as good as the ammo, command system and tracking radars/electro optics directing it. When detected by the Surveillance radar, passed over to the command system and then the target is tracked by the radar director /electro-optics, a 76mm will be fine having a go at a sea skimmer but its going to have a very limited capability against a top diver. Oto will only elevate up to 85 degs then its in the stops and wont fire.… Read more »

Steve Salt
Steve Salt
23 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

As usual, top explanation👍

Matt
Matt
23 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Good morning Gunbuster,
Great comment as always! In your opinion, what would your preferred layered defence look like?
The scope: one ship, not a group.
Systems: Let’s say, tracking, systems and power requirements are whatever you need.
Rules: existing weapon systems only.
Budget: unlimited, but let’s keep it somewhat realistic.
I guess… what would your Type 83 layered defence look like!?
Cheers, [email protected]

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
22 days ago
Reply to  Matt

Using the RNs current systems… The upgraded son of Sampson LPI AESA Nav radar A bigger VL system Viper 30 4 x Camm to replace 1 x Viper 15 5 inch gun Phalanx Block 2 or by then 3 with THIM 2 x 30mm Bushmaster/40mm CTA mount ( The army will now have surplus CTA guns as the Warrior upgrade isn’t happening,) Possible use of 50 cal or minigun RWS to replace Gunners. However there is little to go wrong with a Gunner… they are for the most part reliable ( except for the scoat I had in my Division… Read more »

Dave G
Dave G
22 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Can/ should they have an ability to RAS / reload VLS at sea? I have no idea how complex it is to load a VLS or what would be required but not having to detach an escort from your group to reload would seem likely to be a benefit in hulls required…

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
22 days ago
Reply to  Dave G

RAS VL is not a great idea. The kit was there for Sea Wolf and it was so dangerous to do in a sea way it was abandoned. I athink for Viper they never even bothered to spec it for the same reasons. MK41 has a crane in one of the launch tubes but again its so iffy the USN binned it. Best bet find somewhere sheltered and raft up to a Supply Boat and crane them in. Then again, a supply boat is not going to carry a full outfit of missiles for one ship let alone say a… Read more »

Tim
Tim
22 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

And your choice of Phalanx positions, Port and Starboard or B and Z?

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
22 days ago
Reply to  Tim

Port and Stbd. Large firing arcs and its easier to open them up through maneuvering.

B and Z if positioned well they can cover each others arcs to some extent.

It depends on the ships profile , masts, funnels, flight deck, aerials. All of these constrain firing arcs not just left and right but also in elevation.

David
David
23 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Do you have to nail explanations 100% of the time?

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
23 days ago
Reply to  David

As a CPO for 10 years and then as a Charge Chief/ Warrant Officer for 15 I learnt early on in my career… Don’t give people options… Use your experience and knowledge and tell them the solution… People/ Grown Ups don’t like to disagree with a viable solution… They don’t like being given options to decide which is the best when they are not SME. .

Daveyb
Daveyb
23 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

If the gun is fired at maximum elevation and uses the Dart guided ammunition. Would this be able to be directed at a top diving attack at or near 90 degrees?

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
23 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

You would need a Radar to track the target at 90degs first before you even fired the gun. That’s the issue… You need radars, command systems, trackers to do their bit first before you even get anything to go bang. After that it’s down to trig. If the Dart sensor has a 60 deg either side of its center line field of view it probably won’t ever see a top diver coming at you… It will always be travelling in a direction away from the target. Plus the fore mast and bridge are probably in the way anyway for safe… Read more »

DaveyB
DaveyB
22 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

So basically as a quick fix, a top hat Sampson array would do the trick to fill in the dead zone above the ship. Or perhaps for less top weight, give the two Sampson arrays a swash plate similar to the Captor-E’s. Instead arranged to swivel around the horizontal plane. This could then give the array the extra +30 degrees to look straight up and actually past the vertical. I’ve only read the blurb on Dart so have no knowledge of its real world effectiveness. According to the blurb the semi-active sensor has been able to steer the round a… Read more »

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
22 days ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Hopefully son of Sampson will get a third plate to cover the top arc. That said beam steering and the fact that the current plates are angled off vertical anyway must give some near vertical coverage.

As for Dart the look angle and sensor range is going to limit how far off boresight it will go.

Daveyb
Daveyb
21 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

An AESA array in general has a +/- 45 degree field of view in the vertical plane. Having a ship’s AESA set up so the array is vertical is a waste, as most of the look down angle will be straight at the sea near to the ship. I think Sampson is angled 20 degrees back from the vertical. This still gives it a good look down view, but increases the look up angle to +65 degrees, hence the dead zone immediately above the radar. An AESA array can look past the usual constraints of +/- 45 in the vertical… Read more »

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
20 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

And this is why I leave the Pinkie stuff to Daveb! Stuff that goes woosh and bang doesn’t give me a headache… Radar theory, Radio priniciples and EW… Its all magic as far as I am concerned … I discovered early on that I didn’t néed to understand it that deeply… Just take it as writ that it worked… Hydraulics, control engineering, weapon systems are so much easier!!!

The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
The Artist Formerly Known As Los Pollos Chicken
23 days ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Aye man Great to see from you the usual high pressure fresh water blast of cold hard fact to spray away the stinky poop on here. 👍🏻👏🏻

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🇬🇧

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
23 days ago
Reply to  AlexS

As usual, sunk. 😁

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
23 days ago

I’m reading this morning of HMS Britannia incoming.
That will have the usual suspects spitting out their cornflakes!

Lusty
Lusty
23 days ago

It has had them spitting out their cornflakes and false teeth for many weeks now! 😉

It is great to see some further interaction with other nations.

Last edited 23 days ago by Lusty
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
23 days ago
Reply to  Lusty

I’ve only just seen it today mate.

As so often, agree.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
23 days ago

Omg… The return of Yachtys to the RN fold…

Order of the Ditch
Order of the Ditch
23 days ago

Does anyone know how much of a performance difference there is between the Horizon class and Typer 45s? I know both use the same Aster missiles and Sylver launcher. Does the T45 have an advantage with Sampson?

Paul T
Paul T
23 days ago

Yes Sampson does have an Advantage over EMPAR used on the Horizons,im pretty sure it has more Effective Range.

Daveyb
Daveyb
23 days ago
Reply to  Paul T

Yes the current EMPAR is a PESA based radar, unlike Sampson’s AESA. However, the Italian Horizons in particular will be getting a new AESA based on the Leonardo Kronos radar. France were supposed to be part of the project, but they have stalled saying that there is a lack of funds and are probably going their own way. Sampson also operates in the S band (2 to 4GHz), whilst Empar operates in the G band (4 to 6GHz). Technically Empar should have better target resolution, as it uses a higher frequency/lower wavelength to illuminate a target. However, I do know… Read more »

Order of the Ditch
Order of the Ditch
23 days ago
Reply to  Daveyb

Useful summary, thanks.

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
23 days ago

Has about 25% more effective range (400km vs 300km) and is active with beam forming rather than passive though otherwise quite closely related with Sampson working from 4ghz down while its sister operates from 4ghz up. Sampson was designed to be capable of theatre ballistic missile defence as well though the weapons equipped to the type 45 have very little capability in that role.

Last edited 23 days ago by Watcherzero
Order of the Ditch
Order of the Ditch
23 days ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

Thanks.

Ron
Ron
23 days ago

I wonder how EMPAR compares to SAMPSON? Anyone know?

DaveyB
DaveyB
22 days ago
Reply to  Ron

Yes, not in the same league. It is however better in some respects than the Aleigh Burke’s AN/SPG-62 continuous wave tracking radar used for controlling its SM2s. The Empar is multifunctional, whilst the AN/SPG-62 are single purpose. The Empar replicates the CW that AN/SPG-62 provides to direct semi-active missiles, but also does horizon search, volume search etc. However, being PESA it operates around a single base frequency generated by a single oscillator. This oscillator can vary its frequency within a certain range. However, it won’t have the same bandwidth or agility that the Sampson AESA’s transmitter-receiver modules can individually generate.… Read more »

Last edited 22 days ago by DaveyB
BigH1979
BigH1979
22 days ago

Anyone else getting the weird optical illusion with the forward funnel? Raked forward on the 2nd photo but raked rear on the 3rd. But in reality i suspect raked outward.

Orcman
Orcman
22 days ago
Reply to  BigH1979

The funnel tip is raked outward as you can see on this photo:comment image

Lindsay Green
Lindsay Green
16 days ago

Can’t bring myself to take comments like that seriously.