Prospective Royal Navy submarine commanders and trainee Merlin helicopter sub-hunters have gone up against each other off the coast of Scotland.
12 trainees and two aircraft from RNAS Culdrose headed to HMS Gannet at Prestwick near Faslane for a week of live anti-submarine warfare exercises
According to a news release:
“The Navy’s most advanced submarine, an Astute-class hunter-killer – and its most potent adversary, a Merlin Mk2 helicopter – played cat and mouse to enhance the training and expertise of both. The boat was hosting officers undergoing the final, sea-going phase of the intense and demanding Submarine Command-qualifying Course – known as ‘the Perisher’. Successful candidates go on to become executive officers, the next step towards competing for command of their own boat.
The course, which has been running for 105 years, is world-renowned as one of the most testing selection procedures in any military. As well as prospective Royal Navy submarine commanders, officers from a variety of partner and allied navies have also undergone the training with successful candidates forming a small, elite international family of ‘Perishers’.
Stalking them above the water were trainee Merlin Mk2 helicopters pilots, observers and aircrew from the Fleet Air Arm. While the submariners attempted to evade detection and carry out a series of missions, they were hunted by the helicopters above, armed with powerful dipping-sonar and sonobuoys, peppering Scottish waters and listening for the tell-tale sounds of a boat moving through the depths.”
So supposedly the best ASW helicopter in the world vs supposedly the best Submarine in the world.. Who wins and who loses..?
Neither. Only HMG wins by saving money by cutting the number of helicopters and submarines. MoD’s greatest ever enemy.
You misunderstand Paul, the fact we only have 7 boats, means the four active boats are very hard to find in a very big ocean, so it’s a positive thing!
Maybe we should offer people a cash prize for anyone able to spot one of our subs?
There is more than one ocean. What about ‘the Seven Seas’?
You funny!
Hi PaulW, as of today!
The United Kingdom parliament is to investigate the aviation procurement plans of the Ministry of Defence, with particular focus on the loss of aircraft types and numbers that were recently announced.
The House of Commons Defence Committee disclosed on 21 March that it is to examine the MoD’s aviation procurement plans, looking at the recent reductions, while at the same time as looking at proposals for future capabilities such as the Future Combat Air System (FCAS) and the New Medium Helicopter (NMH).
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/defence/latest/uk-to-investigate-mods-aviation-procurement-plans
Excellent.
Does the Defence Select Committee have any teeth? It’s good that they are reviewing this but I’m not sure what good it will do without more money.
None.
Hmmm! The cynic in me wonders … “the investigation finds we need to put the E-7 order back up to 5” …. but given a fixed MOD budget, the MOD will simply trim the add-on order for A400s or medium lift helos! The mantra is never “buy what we really need”, it’s always, “what can we afford with this budget”.
The committee has been surprisingly critical of the Treasury and MoD in the past. They outright stated in their December report on the RN that it was not going to be capable of fulfilling its intended roles without a significant increase in the defence budget, and that FAA aren’t even getting enough F-35s to properly equip one air wing and a training squadron. Not to mention 7 Astutes is bare minimum and with further cuts the submarine fleet wouldn’t even work properly. They’re blunt about the state of the budget. Whether the government will listen is another matter.
Yesterday, Labour asked about the cut of 10,000 PIDS and said they would support any measure that would scrap that cut. The Con Party of Defence brushed it off.
I’m not sure I would want the PIDS given back to Green, Royal and Royal Navy could reall use the numbers.
My point, Labour need to disseminate information such as this and show voters they are not just a mouth piece but are truly invested in defence.
@daniele might agree 😉
The MOD don’t do themselves any favours. Ajax is but one example. The Dunkirk spirit of rescue is admirable but its also good not to get into disaster mode in the first place!
I’ll take a Block V Virginia Class sub over an Astute anytime. Astute just can’t match its payload. Everything else is a draw.
I was wondering if the Merlin could detect the Astute therefore proving it can detect the best submarine in the world.. Or could the Astute avoid detection proving it could evade the best ASW helicopter in the world.. Again supposedly.
North Sea?
Errrm…I think you mean the Arctic Ocean or Kara Sea.( not that any surface unit would play in the Kara sea as its literally in russia’s back garden.)
Quick correction…”other than the US Navy” should be “including the USN.” Their ABs are nowhere near the capability of a T23 at ASW.
Son of SOSUS is in operation in the North Atlantic so it would be used to vector in any surface units to a search area.
Does the FAA still drop Jesabels Sonarbouys 1f so those little Sonar packets are over 45 yrs old they must be well worth their price
I do like the Merlin and would like to see the UK replace the Puma with them.
The US is working to replace Blackhawk. We would end up wrecking job prospects in the UK to be in a position on 10 years hoping to join the US effort.
If Leonardo are offering to build 60plus AW149 in Yeovil , plus export orders then that makes sense. They can carry more payload than Blackhawk.
The Blackhawk should have been bought 30 years ago, the ship has sailed.
Agree, a nation has to look at the whole defence package, there may be a marginal cost saving edge now to go Blackhawk. But to get that marginal in year saving the destroy a big tec industry that could generate future export if invested in as well as be there if future sovereign needs. It’s to short term buy something, American, German, Chinese that has seem so much of our industry destroyed and the creation of a national Dependence on others.
All that will happen is that at some point these lost industries need rebuilding at huge cost and the science and technology and knowledge workforce base behind them is eroded.
It’s something we in the west have forgotten at our peril, the health, welfare an defence of a nation is never short term fixes, its long term planning around all strategic elements that make a nation a geopolitical power. Loss in one key area, such as industrial capability, production or access to raw materials and you can loss everything, even if you army has nice stuff purchased from other nations….Germany has just had a big lesson In loss of control, an industrial powerhouse, being held at gun point by an industrial minnow that it’s dependent on for a resource.
finally the 149 is a very good rotor Indeed, most people don’t realise it’s a ground up military rebuild from a 139 and not just a civilian rotor with a few modifications.
👍
It’s a brilliant rotor, but to big for the Puma replacement.its not really a medium rotor, more a cross between a medium and Heavy rotor.
But it would be good to see a few more built as we could do with another squadrons worth of mark 2s.
Blackhawk is an ancient (1970s) helicopter. It can carry only 11 troops rather than the Puma’s 16.
Sorry bud. It is the wrong aircraft for replacing the Puma. It is far too big for starters, with nearly twice as big a footprint. It is not a battlefield support helicopter. An example would be, how do you carry out inspections and maintenance on the tail rotor whilst in the field? With a Puma, you get a set of A frame ladders, or failing that, back up a Landy and stand on the roof. With a Merlin, you need a very long set of steps. When they were in RAF service. They came with Renault 4×4 trucks, with a hydraulic cherry picker on the back. Absolute pieces of cack. On exercises you would find them stuck in the mud, or with a RAF lad stuck in the cherry picker because the hydraulic motor had failed – again!
To operate a helicopter in the field near the forward edge on combat operations. It has to be rugged, but also simple to work on and repair, especially if it has been hit by small arms. The Merlin sadly is none of these. It is a great helicopter for other roles such as ASW and ferrying troops etc near to a frontline. As the active damped main gearbox and rotor head gives a very smooth ride. Especially when you compare it the vibrating death banana that is the Chinook.
The Puma, although it is has now been in service since 1971, it still is a relatively reliable aircraft, since its upgrade to the Mk2. The problem is a lot of its components need specially manufacturing as they are no longer manufactured, which costs significantly when doing limited production runs. It is still easy to repair in the field, as it doesn’t use composite materials in the structure or skin, but aluminium alloy. The other big issue it has, is that can’t be operated from a ship with a sea state over 3, as it is too top heavy.
The NH90 on paper, would have been the obvious candidate to replace it, when Puma 2 was being looked at. Thankfully we didn’t go down that rabbit hole. As it turns out the aircraft has had a whole host of issues, since coming in to service. The three remaining contenders being the Blackhawk, AW149 and Airbus H175. The H225M Caracal which was considered a favourite and is a descendent of the Puma, was quickly turned down.
For for a battlefield helicopter which favours the ethos of keep it simple stupid! The Blackhawk would be the best choice. It has the greater support infrastructure and support. It is a tried and tested airframe, though not new, but has been continuously updated. All three branches of the service have flown the aircraft with exchange pilots on operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, so there is first hand knowledge of the aircraft, its foibles and capabilities. It was designed to be ferried to a hot zone in the back of a C130, and then be readied for flight in 30 minutes. It is also maritime qualified and the wide undercarriage and low squat airframe means it can operate from ships in very heavy seas.
I would discount the Airbus H175 as a firm outside contender. It was originally designed as air taxi for ferryiong passengers between airports. Then became more focused on ferrying people to and from oil rigs. It has been militarized, but was not designed at the get go as a battlefield support helicopter. The sliding doors are a good example as they are actually quite small.
The other main contender would be the Leonardo AW149. This has been designed at the get go as a military helicopter. It is a development of the civilian AW189. But has much bigger sliding doors and a crash worthy airframe and undercarriage. It is a relatively new aircraft and as such does not have the same export success or support infrastructure as the Blackhawk.
All three manufacturers say their aircraft if chosen, will be assembled in the UK. Poland has a manufacturing facility that already makes both Blackhawk and AW149/189 airframes. Airbus will likely build the airframe in Germany and ship them across to their facility at Kidlington.
Of the three, I would say the Blackhawk is the sensible option, the AW149 is the political option and the H175 is the underdog option.
Blackhawk is too old and too small capacity for the size.
Merlin is a 3 engine helicopter too heavy and too expensive.
Army needs a battlefield taxi capable of very high rates of use.
Is there any talk of putting dipping sonar’s on the Wildcats to add some additional anti-sub ability to the fleet? And wasn’t there talk of transferring Army Wildcats to the Navy or co-sharing – or maybe that was “our” suggestion here…lol?
Thought wildcat was to replace the FAA Lynx wing? As a light attack and ASW variant it is sure to have dipping sonar and the latest version of Blue Vixen targeting radar. Or have the money cuts left them blind and deaf?
did the budget come up with more defence spending ?
I dunno, cant watch/listen to that twat – but Im gonna guess that was a rhetorical question & the answers no ?
No. Said he gave lots last time. More important for him to make sure anyone under 150k a year takes a paycut due to inflation and promise some random 1p of income tax in 2024.
Loved the bit about someone buying a solar setup would save £8k in vat costs. That’s great if you have the £44k spare for a set up. Anybody else you need to work harder and invest better.
A Tory was never going to help anyone under upper middle class.
So whats the magic solution to inflation then? Considering its a worldwide issue currently I dont see how a UK mini budget update could single handedly solve it for everyone.
They’ve dropped the ball on that one.
Deal with energy prices on the supply side, and heavily cap them, rather than just subsidise higher energy bills, and the inflation number could be a couple of points lower.
I don’t have a solution but perhaps give employees an in line or above inflation pay rise and do the same with benefits.
Personally I would go with one off tax. Any energy company earning over a certain amount pays a big chunk over that amount this year.
I pick energy firms as the example as they have bigger profits from higher prices just now. The tax loop holes for international business also needs addressing.
That would be a starting point for a few billion.
A solar setup costs about £4400, not £44k.
The £1000 looks like an “everything” figure, not a solar VAT figure.
And you get a big chunk of that back in the next 12 months with forecast energy bills.
Mine are in, and will generate about £1000 worth of elec I will use this year, if valued at 30p per kWh. It may be time for me to invest in a house battery and elec water heating to go with the solar, to cut the bills further.
If you own a house in the UK you can afford it, since average house prices are up 18k in the last 12 months alone, thanks to £35bn a year in tax subsidies for home owners, and the Govt driving the demand side rather than reforming the market.
Yes that was my thinking on it. So either he’s costing a big solar for him at his mates mansions or he has his figures wrong. Either way it’s not great example to use. I’m sure he said £8000 saving.
Not even a mention of repaying the MoD for the munitions already supplied and those still to be supplied, to Ukraine – who’s supposed to be paying for those??
The Ukraine expenses will probably come out of contingencies as a UOR. I did hear that Shorts/Thales Belfast are recruiting…more NLAWs may be required.
Thank you Gunbuster. The Telegraph now has an article confirming there will be no additional new money for defence. Can our politicians really be that blind to what’s going on in our world is today?
In fairness to the current UK regime, the Russians aren’t too likely to be looking for another fight any time soon and they did recently up the budget. Like most on here I’ve been worried about the Military Defence
reductionsreviews over the last 30 years or so but I’m happy to wait and see what comes from the ‘proper’ budget. Its probably too late to speed up the current orders of ships etc unless we confirm more to keep the production lines going so we need to be pushing to get things like Ajax sorted. That would be a huge difference to capability that we’ve already budgeted for.What’s hard for me to get my head round is defence spending is large and seems to increase but the forces always get smaller. People quote the gdp figure of 2% but it’s 10-11% of government spending.
I’m guessing it’s the tech factor and inflation, costs always going up
David, just one to consider (and I’m not saying you’re wrong), but we arguably purchased those munitions (NLAW) to destroy Russian Tanks. Does it matter that those tanks were destroyed by the same weapons, but in someone else’s hands? ie has the MOD actually got good value for money there?
A very good point David. Those weapons are being used by proxy for the very thing they were intended for. They also proving to be a big hit (!) with the users and confirming that these are the right weapons with the capability we want.
I was not overly aware of NLAW before now (other than knowing we did have so sort of light anti tank weapon), but here it is and perhaps the anti tank “top trump” deck will have to be revised…
AA
Sorry… I meant to reply to David, if it was not obvious!
AA
Getting old… BobA of course. My my.
Depends how many have been captured by the Russians.
You can literally buy CAPTAS and FLASH sonar systems from Thales. A bunch of navies even operate or have ordered more modern versions even. If we actually just believe that those systems are the best.
More of both needed. Merlins HM2+ to equip another carrier Sqn at least (12+). Equip all surface units with some form of ASW sonar too. the OPV’s have the room for sure to add something to the fold.
The Perisher course, I remember way back watching the series “submarine” with the moody music at the start! Those blokes who pass must be some of the most switched on, tactically aware and clever fuckers going! I do remember watching a more recent one as well, way past my ability, respect all round! In fact respect all round to those strange, possibly slightly crazy and very pale people who operate under the very scary sea! Far to dangerous for me!!!!
Perishers COQCs. Look back at million pound men one of the daily rags from the 1970s HM Submarine ONYX