Project Mosquito, the RAF’s future combat drone, will now not proceed beyond the design phase and has effectively been cancelled.

The drone was due to fly next year.

The cancellation of the project was announced, oddly, late last night. The following statement was provided.

“The decision, taken by mutual agreement with industry partners, follows a detailed review of the technical demonstrator and the broader Lightweight Affordable Novel Combat Aircraft (LANCA) Programme.

Deciding to not proceed with the specific manufacturing technology demonstrator will not impact on the wider intent to build the most capable and cost-effective force mix possible, or the “Loyal Wingman” concepts under investigation within the Future Combat Air System Enterprise. The programme remains focused on the post-2035 capability space, where integration through a system-of-systems approach has been a key requirement from the outset.

The decision was informed by parallel analysis and capability experimentation conducted by the RAF and the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (Dstl). The accumulation of analysis concluded that more beneficial capability and cost-effectiveness appears achievable through exploration of smaller, less costly, but still highly capable additive capabilities.”

Air Commodore Jez Holmes, Head of the Rapid Capabilities Office said:

“Through Project Mosquito and other experimentation activities the Royal Air Force has made substantial progress and gained significant value in understanding and harnessing a range of future uncrewed capabilities. This decision maximises the learning accrued to date and enables a change of direction for the LANCA programme.  The Rapid Capabilities Office will now quickly launch activities to aggressively pursue the RAF’s unchanged firm commitment to integrate advanced uncrewed capabilities into the near-term force mix with more immediate beneficial value.”

It is currently unknown where this leaves other related projects such as Project Vixen, a drone that would have operated from the Queen Elizabeth carriers.

George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. He also works for the NHS. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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Jon
Jon
1 month ago

Wow! I was not expecting that. A truly sad choice.

“smaller, less costly, but still highly capable additive capabilities.”

Really? That’s what will get us mass, is it? “Still highly capable” means “not as capable” and not what we wanted. How much are the Ghostbats?

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  Jon

Perhaps this was a really smart decision. We on the outside see very little, apart from seemingly PR purpose videos and random user videos plus claims from both sides, on what is actually happening in the biggest yet UAV conflict, above Ukraine. Last week we even had interviews with two Ukrainian UAV pilots describing the possible gift of $10M US Eagles as a waste of money as they wouldn’t last long. Maybe the TB-2 for example worked well in the wide open spaces of the vast Ukraine in the early stages but as the fighting area became more concentrated AD… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

More lies from the Russian propagandist 🤷🏻‍♂️

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Where is the lie?

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

I’m glad to see you no-longer fruitlessly claim not to be a propagandist, that’s a start. Ukraine are losing TB-2 drones, but that’s their purpose, to go where you’d be certain to lose manned aircraft and wreak havoc. They certainly still seem to be doing that with the Russian navy 😆 And the Ukrainian videos of their innovative use of drones is impressive. I particularly liked the use of a COTS drone to drop an ancient Soviet grenade, with 3D printed fins added, through the sun roof of a car stolen by Russian soldiers. And I’m looking forward to them… Read more »

John Clark
John Clark
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

One wonders how much longer the murderous Russians can keep it up Sean, having become international pariahs and proving the once feared Russian Armed forces is little more than a bunch of rapist, murderous scumbags, poorly trained and using obsolete kit. To think NATO feared them is a bit of a joke now, had they attacked Poland, what was left of them, would be thrown back, limping home to Russia by day 2 with their tanks in flames I see the resident Russian Morse tapper still hasn’t denounced little big man Putin? Go on JohninMk, make a run for the… Read more »

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  John Clark

By the end of this year Russia will start breaking apart. Many republics are already desperate to leave.

John Clark
John Clark
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

It’s possible, there’s a desperation in Russia to get the war finished and take control of the whole of Eastern Ukraine. As we all know, they have a closing window of opportunity to do this, supplies (in everything) are running low, the summer in this part of the world is hot, but short, come September, the temperature will rapidly slide and mud and rain will turn to snow in quick order by October…. The Russians will once again get mired down and confined to roads, the Ukrainians will absolutely mallet them in depth with their new artillery and other equipment… Read more »

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  John Clark

Maybe you could provide some evidence of Russian supplies running low?

The Russians seemed to cope OK with the Spring, in the Autumn it will affect both sides. There is not enough incoming artillery to affect results significantly.

NATO or the EU is more likely to break up under the strains of the oncoming energy crisis.

What on earth makes you think that the Russian military are not happy or, if he were replaced, Putin would be replaced by someone friendlier to us?

Give us some links or facts behind your claims.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine yet? None? Thought not Russkie saddo!

Tams
Tams
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Ah, you’re true colours have eventually shown today. Took you a while this time.

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

Really? Name one with some evidence.

A Moore
A Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

You mean Scotltish independence surely

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

Did you think that one up all in your own? Wow, high quality post yet again!

peter fernch
peter fernch
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

You must have bugged the Kremlin to get that info , Does MI6 know

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  John Clark

Well the military’s of the so-called peoples republics have suffered over 50% casualties, and despite shipping in mercenaries from abroad the Russians have now started deploying conscripts to the front-line – after saying they wouldn’t. Meanwhile they’re mobilising 60’s era tanks and using up large amounts of the old Soviet munitions stockpile. While Ukraine is using munitions at proportionately the same rate, NATO is resupplying them (though could do much better). Unless China decides to resupply them, given long-enough the Russians will be reduced to bows and arrows. The Russian economy is in a terminal decline. Yes they’ve implanted measures… Read more »

John Clark
John Clark
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Here here

Douglas Newell
Douglas Newell
1 month ago
Reply to  John Clark

surely: hear hear?

John Clark
John Clark
1 month ago
Reply to  Douglas Newell

Where where?

A Moore
A Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Russia is self sufficient in everything that is necessary to sustain a functioning society,food,energy,natural tesouces,manufacturing capacity particularly militaru production and technology etc. Britain is self sufficient in NOTHING except paper finance being merely an American colony since 1944-1947 as an american president siaid to our Prime Minister”When i call you.You gat here now with the shirt tail flapping out of your pants.NOW!”hmmmm.Bet you dont know which president and which prime minister.Go on demonstrate your knowledge by answeing such a simple question.Thye evil Empire —America.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

Seems we’ve attracted another deranged Putin propagandist 🤷🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️

Spouting those hilarious untruths may work on Planet Putin but here we all know that you’re talking utter [email protected] 🤣

The fact is Russia completely lacks the most essential things for a functioning society; the rule of law, freedom of speech, and separation of powers. Without those a society is dysfunctional and doomed to an inevitable collapse.

Last edited 1 month ago by Sean
JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

A Moore’s first sentence pretty much told it how it is. Not sure about the rest.

If you think that part is lies you need to check out your beliefs.

As to Russian society it seems to be operating pretty well under the current circumstances. Had a look at US society recently?

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Oh dear here we go again, you quickly answer and support A Moore! Funny that! Anyway any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine yet?

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Nope wrong again. Well the USA is a bit of a mess at the moment, but then democracy is by its nature messy. Do I really have to quote Churchill on the subject of democracy as a political system? (Of course Russian meddling hasn’t helped.) But correct me if I’m wrong here… when was the last time POTUS have a political opponent poisoned with Polonium or Novichok? When did POTUS last imprison political opponents and ban political parties, or take over or shut down independent news services and tv stations. When did POTUS cut off citizens access to social media… Read more »

A Moore
A Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

So called democracy is simply the three card trick,same face different masks.Potus banned RT television.Potus banned the NSDP.POTUS hounds Julian Assange.POTUS allied itself to Stroessner.Potus builds conentration camps.POTUS accepts bribes .POTUS carried out Extraordinary Rendition.President lily white has never existed.George Washington was a “freedom loving”slave trader: if you can work that one out,good luck!

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

So you’re a democracy-hating self-confessed fascist, well I’m not surprised given your support for Putin. Oh are you a fully fledged Nazi given your complain about POTUS banning the American Nazi Party (NSDO)? I guess 80 years ago you’d have been one of those handful of traitors fighting for Hitler, or given your love of propaganda, doing broadcast with Lord Haw Haw. It’s hilarious that you have to reach back to George Washington (judging him by todays standards not those of his day) or 1954 for Stroessner, to try and find comparisons with what Putin is doing in contemporary times.… Read more »

James
James
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

You have killed over 1 million in Iraq the largest genocide of our time in an illegal war that majority of the planet democracies refused to support including our neighbors in Europe. Your morals stand not on one leg. By the way Russia refused to back that illegal war along illegal destruction of Libya which now has turned into a failed state . NATO was condemned by Nelson Mandela for this illegal wars . Putin in his own words warned if you illegally invade sovereign countries and break intl laws don’t cry about future conflicts , it literally gave him… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  James

(a) Wrong, I’m pretty sure I would have remembered if I’d killed a million people in Iraq. (b) Iraq was NOT a NATO operation, idiot. (c) Personally I’d like to see Blair, Campbell, etc all on trial for faking intelligence on WMD in order to get us to join in the Iraq War. (d) Two wrongs don’t make a right. It’s the politics of the playground to say that because the U.K. and USA invaded Iraq (a dictatorship) that Russia is allowed to invade Ukraine (a democracy). (e) Unlike you war-crime apologists, I don’t believe in the mantra “my country,… Read more »

James
James
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

So you you do admit Iraq was an illegal war with false intelligence used? Boris supported that war so did much of the current Tories in power which you back now on this Ukraine proxy war that started in 2014. You bad mouthing people won’t hide the truth 😂

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  James

Most of us supported the war at the time because we were lied to by the Blair government. That is why I believe Blair should be on trial.

Fortunately it is far easier to see through Putin’s ridiculous lies about Nazi’s in Ukraine. Unless of course you’re brainwashed by the propaganda of Russian tv and media.

Your still an idiot, with bad grammar, and even worse logic and debating skills.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

We have a trio of clowns who firstly (two of them at least) have very bad English, and secondly all sing off the same song sheet and answer each other’s posted responses. James and A Moore are however expendable straw men to deflect our time and attention from Johnskies slight better efforts at propaganda and trolling. Sad mate isn’t it!

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

Well JohnInMoscow can’t be expected to work 24×7 posting his propaganda, so they have Jameskova and A Mutt as his backup/relief.

Janeskova’s English grammar is particularly poor, they must be desperate employing him. Every Russian I know has way better English than him – but then they all despise Putin. Which goes to show that supporting Putin and being stupid obviously go together 🤷🏻‍♂️

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

😂😂😂👍 Agreed!

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  James

Why are you and A Moore pretty much answering posts not directed at you together? Oh dear, how sad, never mind troll time!

Tams
Tams
1 month ago
Reply to  James

Ah, a third Russian drone and the second with terrible English. At least JohnInMK is eloquent (if demented).

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  Tams

Thanks for the compliment, its appreciated, even if it came with a sting in the tail.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  Tams

Used to deflect attention and try to prevent challenging Johnskies propaganda! James and A Moore are both straw men, expendable to make us waste our time handing them there arses while JohninMK prattles on.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  James

Do you love Putin? Does he get you hot, sweaty and a bit excited with a tremble? It seems like that as you hero worship him in your sad comments! So would you also like to condemn Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine and see the Russian Nazi forces withdraw back to their pre-2014 start lines?

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

You waffle some Nazi shite troll boy!

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Sean have a look at Johnskies reply to your reply to A Moore with you calling Moore a Putin propagandist! JohninMK has replied saying he isn’t! He has fucked op, replying as JohninMK and not A Moore! Another fuckup by the sad troll mate!

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

Yeah he’s a lone sad little Putin-loving fascist, pretending he has friends and support by posting under multiple identities. He strikes a pathetic figure.

James
James
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

You are coward and call anyone that supports not wars Putin loving. The vast majority of the planet is not supporting NATO stance , so are you saying they are in the pockets of Putin now? South America , Africa ,much of Asia back not this proxy war in Ukraine of NATO . Cost of living is going through the roof and the recent by elections are warning by the British tax payers that Boris can’t spend British money the way he likes in such tough economic times . The support is waning for this proxy war . It’s time… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by James
Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  James

Pretty sure the vote an the United Nations General Assembly proves that you are wrong. Pretty much every country apart from fruit cakes like North Korea voted to condemn Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. But you don’t seem interested in facts, or English grammar either 😂 The cost of living is going through the roof because of Putin’s genocide in Ukraine and there’s a very simple way to achieve peace, he withdraws from Ukraine. If you knew anything of British history, or which you’re blatantly ignorant you’d know that government’s always lose mid-term bye-elections. The swings against Boris’ party weren’t even… Read more »

James
James
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

The UN assembly called for an end to this war but backed not arms to be sent to Ukraine to prolong this proxy war. Even some of the Europeans like Germany and France had enough of Boris and established talks with Putin . I think you are the only one that thinks the UK has the world fastest growing economy 🤣😂
The cost of living rise started way before the Ukraine war 🙈 This is what history illiteracy does to people! Stop reading The Express and Daily Mail and grow up

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  James

Wrong again, idiot. The United Nations condemned Russia for its invasion and called for its withdrawal. Yes there are some appeasers in some countries who think there should be talks with Putin. We also had them in 1939 wanting us to hold peace talks with Putin’s role-model, Adolf Hitler. They are a minority and they are not being listened too. But you know, in democracies we’re allowed free-speech so people are allowed to say these things. Whereas in fascist states like Russia free-speech isn’t even allowed. In fact, Putin would put you in jail for daring to even call this… Read more »

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Precisely!

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  James

You got it wrong on your first lines yet again oh dear oh dear oh dear!

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  James

James
1 year ago
Alex is right the Royal Navy is not well armed offensive wise and has been noted many times and enemies are aware of it! The destroyers must be better armed and the early warning capabilities must be improved .

I’m sure the F35 anti ship capabilities will improve soon . But yeah the F35 will take out any Rafael before they even see the F35 coming“

So pal any excuse for this change of avatar to support yourself when you were Alex?

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  James

“It’s time for peace talks as the UN called for it”

So l would like to test your peace talks logic, by walking into your house and demand you hand it over to me. Would you suggest a compromise?
Maybe I take can take the front room, you keep the kitchen?

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  James

“Not supporting NATO stance” very bad English, very much a style use by someone not fully understanding the grammar to be used! And, would you like to take this opportunity to condemn Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine and see the Russian military return immediately back to its pre 2014 start lines and border?

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

James
1 year ago
Alex is right the Royal Navy is not well armed offensive wise and has been noted many times and enemies are aware of it! The destroyers must be better armed and the early warning capabilities must be improved .

I’m sure the F35 anti ship capabilities will improve soon . But yeah the F35 will take out any Rafael before they even see the F35 coming

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

You were Alex at the time and changed your avatar to James to that very response, so please explain this troll behaviour.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  James

Oh and James we are still intrigued why you posted a response to a chap called Alex, supporting his sad opinion, when it turns out you were Alex, but changed to James to post that support? Can you answer that please we are all intrigued.

A Moore
A Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Demonstrate you knowledge by naming the president and prime minister i quoted

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

That you post that demonstrates his little understanding you have of intelligence, knowledge, learnings, etc. Being able to attribute a fictitious quote proves nothing, except your desperation.

A Moore
A Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

You mean Russia doesnt have a WRITTEN constitution?Russia does not Have an elected Parliament?The Russian Parliament does not pass law?The President on Russia and members of Parliament are not elected?How gullible are you.On a scale of ten i would score you as infinity.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

Oh it has a written constitution, a President and a Parliament.
Alas without free and fair elections all of these are meaningless, and as we know, Putin rigs all of these to his as advantage.

Your maths are as equally retarded as your politics.

johan
johan
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

Amoron

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

You are speaking of yourself again, and again as gullible, as usual!

Last edited 1 month ago by Meirion X
Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

Ah A Moore, a new poster, with repeated anti west and anti NATO posts, who’s quickly answered and supported by Johnskie! FFS you must think we are all as stupid peasants like your average Russian! You must make more of an effort with your trolling, just 1 out of 10 today, must do better!

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

I thought A Moore was a UK non-com officer? Maybe I was deceived by him all along?

James
James
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

Anyone critical of clown 🤡 Boris is not anti Britain ! You want to silence the British public who don’t support this proxy Ukraine war ! The recent by election should be a warning to the likes of Boris and you. We live in a democracy. We all know when the likes of you sent British soldiers with poor equipment to Iraq and the disaster that took place there. People like you tried to silence the public calling them terrorist sympathisers! And today history has judged you and you can’t talk about Iraq without looking like Blair 😂

Last edited 1 month ago by James
Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  James

Calm your pants pal, two answers? Why are you replying to my response to A Moore? More avatar troll mistakes I take it? One troll making an error with their large number of avatars and accounts? And I see you don’t understand my avatar or my career history? “The likes of me sent British soldiers to Iraq with poor equipment” oh dear oh dear, you don’t seem to understand what you are going on about, and you are getting angry, frothing and shouting! Calm your pants angry child and take a deep breath!

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

Ah so the west is bad? Do you think the invasion of Ukraine by Putin is bad, do you support it? Or do you condemn this illegal invasion of Ukraine by Putin?

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

What country do you hail from as it certainly isn’t the UK bot boy!

James
James
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

You are nothing more than a coward bully ! Far from patriot ! You are itching for a war with Russia! You wanna fight them? Go yourself and fight them I’m sure Boris will do everything he can to get you back safely. Nobody in Britain backs a nuclear war with Russia over Ukraine one of the world most corrupt countries. Much of the arms sent there have been sold in the black market already which may hunt us in the future as it could end up in terrorist hands. I want this war to end asap for sake of… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by James
Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  James

Let see you compromise you own
home then! Want to split it then?

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  James

Still no answer in your ranting reply, do you condemn Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine and want to see a complete Russian withdrawal? Try to answer minus the froth around the lips! And the other question remains, what country are you from? Two simple questions which require two simple answers.

Andy a
Andy a
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

Really? All those things Russia has are useless if u can’t produce any complex goods.
try looking at the Russian business meet at a high level last week, one billionaire when asked about trade now said “yes we are fine without the west, we can’t make anything, buy anything, sell anything, we cave no customers, no imports no exports, ie no problems!

Steve R
Steve R
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

Back to Mordor, Orc!

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

You’ve described perfectly the relationship between Putin and Lukashenko. Plus the future relationship between Russia and China.

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

No, Russia was Not self sufficient in grain in the Cold War, it had to import grain from the USA!
Also a lot of U.S chips been found in Russian military equipment, so who say Russia is self sufficient in technology then??

Last edited 1 month ago by Meirion X
JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Where do your figures come from on casualties? No conscrips on the front line, the officer responsible last time was arrested. The T-62s are being used by DNR and LDR militias, technology they are used to, not the Russian Army. Both sides are using up stockpiles of WP 122/152mm munitions. But Ukraine is the one saying they are low on stocks now firing perhaps 1:5 max compared to the Russians, who don’t seem to have any supply or logistics issues. Supply from NATO is a huge problem and the correct ammo havs to be in the right place for the… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Yaaaaawn more shite! Any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine yet?

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

The casualty figures come from British Intelligence. You know the same people that were saying since November that Russian is going to invade Ukraine, whereas you were in denial even as the tanks were rolling across the border. There aren’t any “militias”. At best those fighting for DNR and LDR are mercenaries, and at worst terrorist organisations like ISIS when it proclaimed itself to be a ‘state’ too. So the Russian Army is giving these mercs/terrorists obsolete equipment because they don’t have any decent stuff left to give them? Well that’s effectively the same thing. The Russians are making more… Read more »

James
James
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Yeah the same intelligence that said Iraq had nukes which it could deploy within 45 minutes, I think people made up their mind of their credibility. It was obvious to anybody Russia was going into eastern Ukraine the moment they recognised the region. You didn’t need intelligence services to figure that one out unless you are a clown like Boris . The conflict was brewing for years

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  James

Wrong again, Russian idiot. The UK’s intelligence service didn’t say there was weapons in Iraq. The Blair government misrepresented their reports to imply there were weapons to justify joining the war. That’s why I think Blair should be on trial. But I suspect you don’t want Putin on trial for his illegal invasion. The French intelligence service maintained that Putin wasn’t going to invade, which is why it’s its head was forced to resign. As it was the U.K. was so certain, we started supplying weapons to Ukraine BEFORE the invasion whereas every other nation did not start until after… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  James

Oh dear more mistakes from angry child! Do some subject matter research prior to posting, helps to stop you looking like a moron. See, I like to help those who struggle, you don’t need to thank me.

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Ah, that lot, a part of the British Government that, following Iraq, is not going to put its head above the parapet in any way that might lead it to be accused of undermining the Government in public. I don’t think even the Ukrainian Government has called the DNR/LDR militias mercenaries and, with any of them being ex military maybe the Russians are giving them gear that they were used to when they served.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine yet?

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Oh British Intelligence identified Russia’s intent long before anyone else. That’s why we were able to start piling NLAWs into Ukraine even before the Russian invasion started. (You remember NLAW right, ones of the weapons that destroyed your tanks in such huge numbers that you had to abandon the invasion of the whole of Ukraine and instead turn to WW1 style artillery barrages.) The Ukrainian government doesn’t refer to them period, it doesn’t deign to acknowledge their existence. Neither does any other state on the planet except the loony fringe or Russia’s lapdogs. I said at best they are Russian… Read more »

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

“The T-62s are being used by DNR and LDR militias…”
A lie as usual from you again!
T-62’s been seen lately in Kherson, in use by the Russian army!

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Correct!

Douglas Newell
Douglas Newell
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Meanwhile in the real world: The Russians have destroyed the Ukraine’s stockpiles of 102mm and 152mm shells rendering their Soviet artillery useless, the Ukrainians are now dependent on western rockets and artillery which has been provided in very small numbers and which cannot be resupplied with shells at the appropriate rates. Not only does the West not have the ability to make western 105mm and 155mm shells fast enough for the Ukrainian demand, the supply lines from US factories will be huge and expensive. The west has said the Russians are running out of ammo since early march and yet… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Douglas Newell

That you make the “volksturrm” reference shows you believe the ridiculous “Ukrainian Nazi” fairytale. Which means you’re either naively stupid or another Putin war-crime propagandist; I’d bet the latter. Ukraine doesn’t need to match Russia shell for shell and artillery-piece for artillery-piece, or come anywhere close to it. The reason is obvious to anyone not blinded by propaganda. The Ukrainians are simply targeting Russian forces, whereas Russian forces are targeting every single metre of territory they don’t control. Let the Russians waste shells destroying evacuated housing blocks and shopping malls, all they do is providing targeting information for Ukrainian counter-battery… Read more »

James
James
1 month ago
Reply to  Douglas Newell

Well said! We are losing this war strategically and economically! It is war led by sleepy Biden what do you expect out of it ? If Trump led it I would have been more at ease . But Kamal Harris? I’m sorry we could be sleep walking into a calamity! We need cool heads and not put ourselves in a disadvantage if challenging Russia . It’s extraordinary how Russia managed to bring the entire west to its knees in economic warfare, this is unthinkable! Russia should have lost that front at least !!!

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Douglas Newell

It is you that’s a prisoner of tRUMPS distorted mind!
An agent of Pootin!

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

The Russian troops, have been putting their so called Liberated Pro Kremlin freedom fighters of the new republics as their tip of the Russian Spear ill equipped, for combat against the Battle hardened Ukrainians getting wiped out is no problem for Putin it means that with the territory he has stolen can now be filled with Russians as there will be no fighting age republicans left too cause any future problems for Russia .Putins idea of Liebansrum oh sorry that was the Nazi’s idea History repeating itself But in putins eyes Democracy in action Sean

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Tommo

I agree, Putin doesn’t care if the self styled LPR and DPR militias are being annihilated. It’s pretty clear he’s planning old-Soviet style ethnic cleansing of the areas Russia conquers. The deportation of Ukrainian civilians to the Far East of Russia confirms this.
His intent is clearly to resettle conquered Ukrainian territory with loyal Russians after the war is over; being a Russian speaking Ukrainian isn’t going to be good enough to survive under Putin.

Sadly we are witnessing Holodomor #2

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

With you on that one Sean .And Putin is claiming that he’s De Nazifying all his missing is the moustache im sure that someone else did something like that to the Western portion of Poland its history repeating itself just hope that like that piece of history putin ends up in his very own bunker like his alter ego Adolf Hitler

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Tommo

I have to disagree with you on one point. I don’t want Putin to be able to choose the place and time of his demise, as his hero Hitler did…

I want Putin to be dragged to The Hague, put on trial, convicted, and then to live a long humiliating life behind bars, wearing a prison uniform and eating prison rations. Preferably in solitary, with no visitor rights.
A living warning to would be dictators and war criminals everywhere.

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Putin will play the mentally distributed card knowing him and will be confined too One of Russia’s well equipped Asylums and deemed mentally unfit too stand Trial Shame one can’t be committed for being a Liar as well

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 month ago
Reply to  John Clark

It’s really getting comical Ali with them of late we get another Deputy come TV expert claiming that London would be their first target if NATO intervenes and that apparently Europe would have all their power generation destroyed within 3 days prior to this, satellites all taken out leaving us sitting ducks it seems. All this done apparently by their glorious airforce, yes the same airforce scared to enter even Ukrainian airspace and exploiting ever more ancient weaponry while calling up retired pilots to replace loses and refusenicks perhaps, while their copters stay mostly out of harms way altogether. Only… Read more »

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Re Lavrov. With virtually all of Europe, apart from us and 4 neutral countries, allied against Russia in WW2 I’m not sure how his claim of ‘most’ is an attempt to rewrite history..

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Lavrov, another Russian criminal lap dog terrified of doing or saying the wrong thing in front of head Nazi Putin! So, any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine yet?

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Was that the Russia that allied with Nazi Germany in 39 and invaded Poland from the East while the Nazis invaded from the West? Do you condemn that Russian invasion of Poland while allied to Nazi Germany?

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Rewriting history again I see you war-criminal.
Being occupied by the Nazis does not make a country “allied” to Nazi Germany you dimwit.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Spot on!

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Russia showed its true Colours when Stalin troops marched into Eastern Poland in 1939 and executed over 20,000 Polish army officers and intellectuals then deported the remnants of the Polish army to Siberia where they lingered until Russia itself was Invaded ,When asked by the Allies where all the Officers were they blamed the Nazi’s nothing seems too change in the way the Russians operate and blatantly Lie

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  John Clark

As you mentioned me here goes. It is likely the Russians can keep it up longer than us. They may be in the West but in the rest of the World they are definitely not a pariah. Seen the Ruble value now? For an army as you describe it they are performing pretty well in Ukraine, they now control all of Luhansk east of the Donets river What on earth makes you think that, if it happened, that they wouldn’t hit Poland in exactly the way NATO has expected virtually since WW2 or ‘Shock and Awe’ 21st Century style? There… Read more »

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

What’s going to stop them hitting Poland the same way?? Well, self evidently, themselves. Over 3 months into their invasion and they’ve made only the most incremental progress in the Eastern region, pyrrhic victories at best, towns reduced to uninhabitable , disease ridden rubble. They have saved zero infrastructure. That’s just in the regions where the majority speak Russian, and yet those citizens have fled Westwards whenever possible as they do not want to live under Russian occupation, and risk widespread summary execution and rape as happened in Irpin, Bucha, Mariupol, Kharkiv etc. Or forced abduction into Russia. I see… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

After WW2 NATO was facing the combined mass of the Warsaw Pact rolling across Europe. These days the vast majority of those formerly communist Warsaw Pact members are now the staunchest members of NATO. At best Russia can now hope on Belarus joining in, maybe. You keep talking about Russian-speakers. Does Putin plan to invade every town and city in the world that has Russian-speakers? That possibly makes London his next target after the Ukraine. As for Russian-speaking Ukrainians, every single one of them that I know don’t wish to be ‘liberated’ by your rapists and murderers. So it was… Read more »

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

I think what got people worried, is Putin using the Czar Peter the Great, as a reason for returning land to Russia. When you look at this part of history. You will see that Finland, the Baltics (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) along with Eastern Poland were all invaded. This was part of his scheme to get a port into Europe that didn’t freeze over in the Winter. So we now have Belarus exercising its troops along the Ukrainian border, as well as the border near to the Sulwaki gap. A lot of this is to draw off Ukrainian troops away… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Lithuania hasn’t blockaded the train line to Kaliningrad. They simply enforcing EU sanctions on all shipments through their territory. If Russia tried to send the same shipments into Kaliningrad via Poland (via Belarus) they’d run into the same sanctions. Putin was a child of the USSR, and his ego sees him reestablishing it’s hegemony over it’s former lands as his legacy and place in history. Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova are first in line. For the Baltic States he needs to split NATO so that Article V becomes ineffectual. He was perhaps hoping that would be a side-effect of the Ukraine… Read more »

A Moore
A Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Infantile twaddle

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

Putin propagandist, war-crime apologist.

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

And a CON man as well for betending to be a retired UK Army non-com. officer.

Last edited 1 month ago by Meirion X
Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Meirion X

Spell checker bug!
I mean pretending.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

Great comment, your contribution of 10 inane and sad comments are much appreciated for their comedy value!

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

I feel really cheeted by A Moore!
Should he not be BANNED from this site?
If A Moore was really a former UK non-com officer, should it not ring alarm bells at the MoD, with a official investigation launched?

Last edited 1 month ago by Meirion X
Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  Meirion X

Sad isn’t it mate but at least he is so bad it’s funny!

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

Troll, even I spotted it.

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago

It’s getting silly now mate, makes reasoned chat and debate hard as we all have to challenge such offensive garbage, when we have better things to discuss.

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  A Moore

Speaking of Yourself again, and again as usual!

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

I am not a propagandist, I reflect a countervailing opinion that in my view, based on my experience, is the more realistic view.

I am pleased you were not able to identify a lie by me, that’s a start.

Thank you for expanding rather well on my comment “Whilst we see the often impressive videos we don’t have enough information to make educated guesses on their military effectiveness beyond perhaps the small drone artillery spotting task.”

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Well it’s a philosophical question whether they are lies as I suspect you’re sufficient deranged to believe the excuses for war crimes that you spout. Certainly all untrue though.

Wrong. It’s patently obvious the Ukrainians aren’t going to post videos of the most effective use of their drones. Last thing a successful military does is tell its opponent how it’s using its weapons to decimate* them.

Actually “decimate” is the wrong word as Ukraine are killing way more than 1 in 10 of the Russian cannon fodder that’s sent against them.

Last edited 1 month ago by Sean
Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

No you don’t you promote and support a racist Nazi ideology headed by Putin in an illegal invasion you refuse to condemn! Do you want to condemn it yet?

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Oh dear, you fucked up, Sean replied to A More saying “Putin propagandist etc” you then replied to Sean “I am not a propagandist” Oh dear oh dear oh dear, Sean was replying, and calling that name to A Moore, and you answered saying you are not! Getting your avatars confused troll!!!!!!! Contributors will see that and have their concerns about you finally confirmed! You fucked up again troll!

John Clark
John Clark
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

I believe he did precisely the same thing the other day Airborne, it’s becoming comical really, their psychological warfare is as effective as their armed warfare, a shit show of incompetence……..

Last edited 1 month ago by John Clark
Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  John Clark

Agreed!

Posse Comitatus
Posse Comitatus
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

In everything you post.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

I may criticise you at times but that seems a fair comment you made there, though if we have learned anything it is that aircraft and especially helicopters are going to struggle in such a war zone potentially very seriously in anything but stand off weapons hopefully long range ones. As such drones are going to be even more vital than we probably expected but as you hint the serious attrition rate may well have a significant re assessment of what type of drone is best suited to a particular task. The idea that a sophisticated example will be far… Read more »

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Brill, someone on here actually making a rare thoughtful, constructive and relevant comment on one of my posts. Given the flak I get I didn’t want to go into your amount of detail but you pretty much nailed it. I tried to make it as neutral and relevant as I could.Thank you. In a contested AD environment the days of the TB-2 type UAV at one end of the scale and the RQ-4 at the other (viz Iran) are probably over. Yes, they will continue to have a role but militaries will be much more prudent in their use. The… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine yet?

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

On T-62’s!
Seen on the ground near Kherson, use by the Russian army!

Douglas Newell
Douglas Newell
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Jeeze-oh the inability of some people on this forum to engage in reasoned debate is crazy.

If you don’t agree with the guy, explain your reason why – disagree with him via reasoned argument. Just calling him a Russian Propagandist for have a different opinion to you on other topics is nothing more than knuckle dragging trolling.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Douglas Newell

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck… I’ve spent plenty of time on logically and methodically demolishing the propaganda posted by “JohnInMK”/“A Moore” – BTW it’s the same person using both identities. His incompetence means he sometimes replies using the wrong identity 😆 From before the invasion began he has been an apologist for Putin’s actions, denied every single atrocity and war crime, and parroted the official propaganda that Russia is having great success, meeting all its objections, and not taking many casualties. You would have thought given Russia’s long history of… Read more »

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

You really are blinded by your own bias, with a methodology plucked from the clouds, making yourself look pretty stupid and bigoted. A real ‘Reds under the beds’ relic left over from the past quite content to scrape the floor for baseless insults to hurl at anyone who doesn’t have your view of the World. Probably driving potentially valuable commenters away from this site. If you are so convinced that I am also A Moore why don’t you ask the Mods if we have the same details or any indication that we are? Whilst about it, do as I have… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Oooh do I detect genuine outrage from you? Hit a nerve have I? Funny how being accused of posting under multiple names outrages you but not the rape and slaughter of defenceless Ukrainians. Interesting set of priorities you have there… You’ve never once before told me that, you might have said that to Airborne or the many other commentators in this sight that have caught you out posting under multiple identities though. You don’t need a degree in Computer Science (a first if you’re interested) to know that using different email addresses or IP addresses means you’re different people. And… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

He got angry he been caught again! Just your average Putin supporting troll Nazi! There’s a few knocking about now, and the reason is we are handing johnskie his arse every time he spouts drivel, and like his Russian rapist comrades, desperate for some back up!

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Airborne

Yet it’s amusing when he cracks and gets angry, and starts stamping his feet in a childish tantrum.

If he were remotely human though, he’d be angered by Russia’s war crimes.

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Your own fault, as being an apologist for Czar Pootin!
It is you that’s driving potentially valuable commenters away from this site, as usual with your BS!

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Are you getting angry? It’s quite simple to bluff an IP address with the right kit, but anyway why don’t you use some of your anger and outrage at condemning Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine? And your previous 5 months of pro-Putin posts have made YOU look stupid and bigoted, do you need me to cut and paste some of them here to remind you and others? So about that condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine you refuse to state? Decide yet?

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Why did you reply for A Moore then, answering a direct question to him refuting the questioners claim, as JohninMK? Try to answer just one question, then we can discuss your condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine.

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

I failed to spot A Moore until lately.
He seemed like a reasonable ex non-com officer, or just pretending to be, some time ago?

Last edited 1 month ago by Meirion X
Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Meirion X

Yes I don’t recall seeing the name on here pre-invasion.

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Douglas Newell

Speaking of yourself as usual, as a crazy trumpan!

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Precisely again, correct!

dan
dan
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

I think the war in Ukraine is proving that the Russians aren’t near peers to NATO and certainly not America. Everything from their leadership to their equipment has proven to be hyped beyond belief. Not sure if it was just bad intel over the past 30 years or a creation by the defense industry to keep their profits soaring.

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  dan

You are correct. It is clear from the results so far that the Russian military is no match for the US/NATO but then it was never designed to be the same, they had different strategic objectives. Since WW2 US/NATO forces have been honed into the best attacking forces there are. Others, like the Russians, trying to do the same, just don’t match up as we are seeing in Ukraine. On the other hand, faced with overwhelming force, the Russian military strategy is to be the best defensive force. In a way this is being demonstrated in Ukraine where one Russian… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine yet?

Jim
Jim
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

John, do you live in Macedonia?

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  Jim

No in Bucks, why?

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Bucks? Is that a district of Moskva (MK)?

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Peoples Republic of Bucks?

Another Mickey Mouse ‘state’ for Putin to liberate by killing all it’s inhabitants perhaps?

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Very good but I don’t think our overlords in BCC in Ayesbury view it quite like that.

Jim
Jim
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Well it’s always fascinated me how England seems to produce the worst , deranged “brit haters” of the four home countries! Saying that I may be guilty of mis applying your nationality. It still does impress me though the level of craven sympathy people like you will ” spaff” to coin a phrase, on any and all bampot regime’s around thebworld, seen to be sticking it to the UK. Hell I bet you were having the time of your life back in desert storm when we were rather casually chucking out tornado fleet into the sand! Are you sure yr… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

NATO has always been a defensive organisation, it was never “honed” to be an invasion force.

Invasion was always the Russian speciality – 1956 Hungary, 1968 Czechoslovakia, 1979 Afghanistan….

Interesting saying as you patently have no standards, no principles, and no conscience.

NATO hasn’t created any problem. Russia created the problem by invading a peaceful democratic country. All that Russia seems to have learned is how to cover-up its horrendous casualties.

Jon
Jon
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Perhaps it is. We’ll wait and see.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

All to sadly true! Recent interviews with Ukrainian pilots, have said that Russia have got their act together with regards to the air defences over the Donbass. They have massively interleaved their SAM and radar systems. Making it really hard to get into the area, deliver a payload and then get out again. Especially when Ukraine has very few guided weapons left, so is more and more reliant on dumb bombs and unguided rockets. They also admitted that a large number of TB2s have been shot down over the region. Where they have speculated the Russians have analysed the radar… Read more »

DJ
DJ
1 month ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Would something simple like JDAM-ER be of use? It has a range of 70km if dropped from height & could potentially be programmed on the ground if the plane can’t do it (you would loose the ability to change the target). It is really a dumb free fall bomb with add on smarts & wing kit.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  DJ

It might be possible. The standard JDAM uses a combined inertial navigation system (INS) combined with GPS. The aircraft feeds the aircraft’s velocity information to the INS prior to release, Along with the impact location. Where the “flight computer” works out the best glide angle to reach the target. I don’t know if the system is clever enough to work out its initial position just from a gps feed, after it’s been released? For this kind of use the pilot/operator will have to know precise parameters of the launch aircraft and the target to determine when to release the bomb.… Read more »

DJ
DJ
1 month ago
Reply to  DaveyB

According to various sources, it has a range between 70-80km. A Quickstrike mine version is said to do 74km at 35,000ft. It has been tested up 40,000ft & down to 10,000ft. It should also be one of the easier weapons for full integration. Could JDAM itself already be integrated? Thinking of all those NATO members with similar aircraft.

DaveyB
DaveyB
1 month ago
Reply to  DJ

It only has that range with the extended range wing kit fit. The standard strakes only allow it glide as far as I stated. When released from a lower height its glide range will be less

I have called in few when in Afghan as well as on training in the States.

DJ
DJ
1 month ago
Reply to  DaveyB

I did say at the start of my posts on this that I was referring to the JDAM-ER (the wing kit equipped version). My understanding is that any aircraft that already has JDAM integrated can easily integrate the JDAM-ER (as the seperate wing kit is the only difference). I was looking at it to be a cheaper alternative to missiles that may be usable on existing Ukrainian aircraft. Somewhere around 500,000 JDAM kits have been produced. Not sure how many -ER wing kits, but expanded production seems possible. Not aware of any missile production that gets close to these sort… Read more »

Jon
Jon
1 month ago
Reply to  Jon

I’ve had chance to reread the announcement in a less annoyed state and I’ve coming around to the view expressed by some others here that the RCO think they can achieve a better result by other means, or at least that’s what they are saying. The announcement having been written in a weird doublespeak, I found it hard to understand and I failed to pick up that “learning accrued to date” didn’t just refer to the lessons learned from the Mosquito programme as I first thought. Here’s my attempt at a translation: “We now know more than we did and… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Jon
Jon
Jon
1 month ago

As for the timing: Friday afternoon is the traditional time to bury bad news — the “Friday news dump” they call it in the States. Too late in the evening for even the Saturday papers is surely better still. Nothing odd about the time of this announcement. It’s classic.

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  Jon

No doubt dropped then to hide from the news, the Government/MOD don’t really want to be seen undertaking defense cuts at the current time.

Whether the cut was justified or not, isn’t really important, as the media is all about sensationlist news stories these days and not reporting of facts.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

I dont care about the media the fact is that tge government are in the business of ongoing cuts at a time of war in Europe and vile dictators in charge in Russia and China.
RN down to 17 major surface combatants
RN down to just 5 SSNs
No anti ship missiles for surface combatants
Now no loyal wingman
I know the government have bankrupt the country but are we so skint we cant afford some poxy drones to supplement our F35Bs and RAF strike packages?

Nicholas
Nicholas
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Firstly I have to say that if an idea/project was not going to pan out or achieve its objectives then it is sensible to cancel. However cancelling purely on the basis of cost savings, I don’t know if that is the case here, is not good. All of your points are valid, I suspect that if we had a different colour of governement in no. 10 at the moment the criticisms on here would have been very loud. If we have any kind of peer naval conflict in the next five to ten years we are going to be in… Read more »

Gavin Gordon
Gavin Gordon
1 month ago
Reply to  Nicholas

Difficult to disagree. But how about five to ten months?

Paul42
Paul42
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

In a word – Yes

James
James
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

Technically not a defence cut as we dont have any of them in service.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago

It’s unfortunately not surprising. The UK’s lack of sovereign developed drones is becoming embarrassing and I always suspected LANCA would produce nothing more than another design study. We are probably left with no choice but to buy what ever the US is selling now.

Worst of all we have used the best names we had in mosquito and sea vixen on this.

Ben
Ben
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

They’ve not canned all of LANCA just the demonstrator aircraft being developed under project mosquito. By the sounds of it the aircraft either wasn’t going to be ready in time or they’ve figured the airframe is not fit for purpose. Hopefully we’ll see a new demonstrator development announced soon!

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

BAES at Warton have developed several at their SPS. Taranis for example.

Nicholas
Nicholas
1 month ago

On that, should we be funding groups of boffins and bodgers WGC style during WWII?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Nicholas

In a sense a lot of that state owned R&D held things back. By the 1980’s when I was involved it was clear that there needed to be a good big clear out. There were groups of people nursing on designs that were post war relics. The individuals were sometimes amazing, sometimes not so, but you couldn’t sack them and bring in the new skills required for an increasingly digital future. Some of the groups had skills that were no longer relevant. It was a time capsule in aspic. I’m afraid you had only to look at some of the… Read more »

Nicholas
Nicholas
1 month ago

Fair enough. Could the current set up respond if a conflict started in a few months? In a lot of ways we were under prepared for the Falklands war but managed to move things on on the hoof. Wasn’t sidewinder ratified on the way down to the islands?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Nicholas

Honestly no.

Not yet.

Things are not yet at the fast prototype to production stage.

A lot of the problem is that timescale are glacial because there are so many elements of reach into new tech.

I think what is going on here is to produce simpler platforms fast from mature tech. Mind you our mature tech is very very special from Tanaris and Mantis.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago

Yes they just never deployed them, we were ahead of the curve on every UAV development then just gave when it came to completing development. By now we could have had our own MALE with Mantis, UCAV with Taranis and a host of cheaper light drones like Corax. But we ended up with nothing.

Coll
Coll
1 month ago

Wasn’t Taranis given to the French?

David
David
1 month ago

With AUKUs it may be a case that we sell them systems and comporents for submarines and buy from them some of their kit. The obvious being Ghost Bat loyal wingman?
Another Boeing product , probably able to integrate with F35 and other US built Australian aircraft that we share ( P8 , wedgetail)
2000km range could potentially support some carrier and naval operations from ahorebasss .
Not sure at 11m , it’s a smaller system than Mosquito though.

Armchair Admiral
Armchair Admiral
1 month ago
Reply to  David

It would then mean using exclusively American weapons, if F35 integration is anything to go by.
The “rapid capabilities office” should be renamed. Dither and be damned, perhaps.
Get Aeralis going and use their unmanned option? Use Mantis…Bae MUST have a drone worked out by now.
Is it that no one knows exactly WHAT they want drones to do? Other be as cheap as possible??
AA

eclipse
eclipse
1 month ago

Turkey has figured out drones. Australia has. In what world is britain unable to when much less advanced and smaller economies with smaller defence budgets are able to do so…? In a world where the MOD is incapable certainly.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago
Reply to  eclipse

The UK couldn’t get the track and trace app working – which I could have done with a small team of developers (Korea also had an off the shelf one which we could have modified). Thinking the UK could get the a drone working given the poor managerial capability in the UK is several grades higher in complexity. We’ll be buying off the shelf from the US. I would add that I think this doesn’t bode well for Tempest either….No political will, no decent management but the best engineers in the world…It says it all in the UK perhaps if… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Andrew Thorne
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Taranis worked though? And the others before it developed by the SPS at Warton.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago

True but Taranis never went into production. I did say our engineers are the best but the managers – well let’s say I wouldn’t get them to manage a booze up in brewery.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Seem to remover talk of production Taranis costing $200 million each. Mind that was probably rumours. An intercontinental UCAV carrying two 2,000lb bombs would be pretty handy. Almost a long range F117.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Andrew you are right. I know about this issue first hand. South Korea offered the UK their proven track and trace app and all required hardware for national coverage for the miserly sum of £250 million. Their system worked. Instead the UK commissioned Dominic Cummings sister’s company, who had never developed an app before and had zero IT speciality in this area to develop the track and trace app. Result. 10s of billions of £s wasted through incompetence and yes im going to say it. Corruption.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Totally agree with you. I might add that Dido Harding was married to the conservative MP John Penrose. She was a failure at TalkTalk and a faliure at test and trace which cost UK taxpayers a fortune. It’s says it all really technical jobs for the partners of politicians. We really need a root and branch reform of both procurement and appointments to senior posts. It should be based upon capability, knowledge and delivery as opposed to who you know. I’m tired of seeing technical projects run via nepotism and people with no technical understanding. All three main parties are… Read more »

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

And yet everyone here keeps voting Tory 😀

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

Martin I don’t vote for Marxists…I have to pick the least worst party unfortunately. The thought of Captain Hindsight and his motley band of Marxist Corbynista’s fills me with dred…Jesus Starmer doesn’t even know what a woman is for god’s sake!

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

You think kier starmer is a Marxist? Corbyn is not even a member of the Labour Party any more. Your voting for populists and failed aristocrats and your justifying it with lies, conspiracy theories and nonsense. Yesterday you were telling me your not a racist you just don’t want Chinese people with British passports to be let in the country. At some point you just need to be honest without your self and everyone else.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

There are many Marxists still within the Labour party just because Corbyn left doesn’t mean it’s a Marxist free zone. On national TV Starmer was unable to quantify what a woman is so how about that for women’s rights? He also kneels for BLM which for me is a Marxist organisation that wants to defund the police force (I vaguely remember you said you were ex-Police so how about that for you). As regards your intimated statement that I’m racist my wife is South East Asian and came to this country through entirely legal means through marriage to me. British… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Brilliant post. Bloody brilliant post! This is my position too. No one ever explains what they will do to cope with ongoing 250,000 a year so 1 million every 4 years, ongoing, increase in population. Resources wise it is sod all to do with race. Race wise, I could not give a stuff if you are white black pink or green with yellow spots if you then adopt this country and support its values, culture, and ways. And do they….? Some do, many do not. Continue with that over a few hundred years and see what of Great Britain or… Read more »

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago

Thanks Daniele that’s appreciated. You know last week I had some American’s over for a visit (I was showing them around). They were all left wing which is fine as normally I get on well with all political persuasions as long as they aren’t too extreme. These American’s were all white middle and upper middle class and very, very privelaged economically and from an educational perspective. However, they kept on asking my political opinions and I said I’m apolitical (which was broadly what I was ten years ago). This avoids unnecessary arguments about trivialities. Then they started a rant about… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Andrew Thorne
Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

It’s already here. Such a sad state of affairs. I was called a fascist / racist several times out on campaign for Farage for simply wanting my nation free of the EU.
A simple political choice.
They’d have been speechless if they’d seen the black guys and a few Muslim “Taliban” looking types, fellow Brits who had also come down for the day to help. Doesn’t fit their warped tunnel view stereotype.

Anyway. What’s your view on Mosquito!!

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago

I agree Daniele whole-heartedly on everything you say. I think Mosquito is a missed opportunity. I will say this about DSTL they do miss things occassionally (not always but just sometimes they miss the opportunities). I can’t help but feel we do need to develop a UK drone capability and it’s a place marker for ambition and for building UK skills for young people as well. Maybe it was expensive and something newer and cheaper was around the corner or it didn’t have all the capabiltiies. However, from experience in developing niche high end engineering software you have to start… Read more »

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Starmer’s wife if Jewish. He knows what a woman is.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

Martin, let’s be clear; when we decapitated Charles I we didn’t actually abolish the divine right to rule. By a subtle leger de main it passed to the Tory party. Witness the behaviour of Boris Johnson, who clearly sees himself as a reincarnation of Charles I. As I write this, he is with future king Charles III addressing the Commonwealth in of all places Rwanda. Delusions of grandeur. You couldn’t make it up!

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul.P

🤣

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Well said, failure seems to be seen as an asset in this Country esp in politics and the lackeys they employ often through nepotism that’s for sure. Never employ someone who looks better than you is the motto which means picking from a pretty shallow pool of incompetence let’s get real, to look worse than our politicians. So mediocrity and brown. nosing sycophancy are prized assets in that swamp usually dragging industry and commerce down with it. To think for years Prince Andrew was the face of Britain’s soft power and commerce. With a deal maker and figurehead like that… Read more »

James
James
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

The mere discussion of bringing in a track and trace app that was existing and off the shelf had the human rights lawyers waiting in the wings.

Numerous ways of doing what was needed existed, heck chuck on a prison release tag would have done it (some countries did) but alas the opposition would have opposed, legal cases would have ensued and the joys of that side of democracy would have taken over and probably costed even more money.

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Hi Mr Bell, see my answer above, the U.K. track and trace App issues were more related to U.K. privacy laws ect. As you know I’m never a government apologist, but in the UKs case any track and trace app that impacted on personal privacy was always going to be a moral, legal and technical quagmire. It’s why after 12billion pounds pissed away and the best Tec companies in the world trying to solve the problem for a decade we could not get the idea of a single shared health record to work.

Wasp snorter
Wasp snorter
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

i didn’t vote for this government but check your facts before lazily trying to prove a point.The Alice Cummings at Idox is not his sister, just a coincidence on the name.The company Idox has been involved with postal voting, but has nothing to do with the NHS’ track and trace app, so that’s a double lie.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

They were told by Apple/Google that it wouldn’t work, Germany had already by that time binned the idea only France attempted to do something ‘closed shop’ like us. Of course good old Boris wanted to boast about Britain post Brexit and look good. The same as he jumped at signing defence guarantees with Finland/Sweden to look good without any real expectation we might have to follow up on it of course having little to nothing we could send them but some special ital forces a a few fighters, he didn’t see Turkeys stance coming as usual but then when does… Read more »

Jonathan
Jonathan
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

The issue with the track and trace app was more about an interaction between privacy laws, data protection and the tec issue. It’s easy to set up the app if like Korea you don’t have the same focus on privacy over the greater good, where as in the U.K. it was always going to be a nightmare as we are utterly driven by Personal privacy as the driving (we are still far more driven by this moral imperative than most other cultures).

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 month ago
Reply to  Jonathan

Indeed it would not have worked here.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

FFS the Test and Trace app worked, try to not keep ignorantly reposting conspiracy theorists’ crap.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  eclipse

To be fair, a few of us on here could build something as good as the Turkish drones in a few weeks.

They are nothing special and anyone with pre preg, vac moulding skills could do it.

The electronics are a couple of levels over hobby stuff. The ability to transmit video is trivial. I’m not sure why people get excited about them. Even the Russians have figured out how to negate them.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 month ago

The Turks produced those when they could not get more sophisticated drones. True they have limitations ( though they are launching an upgraded version for their own forces) but we could certainly improve upon the basic design or others certainly could. Either way they have are are proving vital to Ukrainian operations. You need information to target properly their ship strikes have relied upon them and loses are just a fact of life to gain the advantage you need to stay in the fight. Rather than re invent the wheel we need at this stage to produce or buy something… Read more »

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

As I’ve said before: there is no point in investing time and effort in systems that fail in front of a medium grade adversary.

I mean you train with a system you build your responses round a system….

If you do that and the system is interdicted you have a hole in your systems?

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  eclipse

The issue is BAE only works with programs with multi billion dollar budgets. It’s got no interest in drones that cost $2million that stop people buying more Typhoons and F35’s.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

Indeed and best we find someone who can and will.

Jon
Jon
1 month ago

The Rapid Capabilities Office has done some good stuff on connectivity, but it’s NavyX that seems to understand drones and perhaps it’s they who need to run with this. Vixen ahead of Mosquito? You are right Admiral. We were only 18 months into the project and it’s way too soon to focus on the “post-2035 capability space”. Maybe if the Spirit is weak, the fleshpots of BAES will be willing, but I like the idea of Aeralis too. They were showing a tanker variant at DSEI. I’d go with both companies as I’m not sure that Aeralis actually build as… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Jon
Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  David

Can it land on acarrier without arrestor wires. What is Ghost Bats stall speed? What is its shortest take off runway length with full load? Its all about flight characteristics. Shore based support for a carrier strike group is insanity RAF promised this in the 1970s that led to cancellation of CVA01. Then the Falklands happened and it was bleeding obvious the RAFs boost they could support carrier operations with land based aircraft was utter Tosh. Therefore unless a drone is mounted on a carrier and carrier capable it isntgoing to be any use to the RN apart from conducting… Read more »

DJ
DJ
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

I think at this stage they just want to get the system working. Once you have it worked out, you then can look at different sizes, shapes & other options. Boeing are well aware of what it takes to produce a carrier capable plane. There is also the Turkish TB3 which has been designed to operate off its ski jump equipped LHD. The TB3 is not trying to be a Ghost Bat type aircraft but is reasonably large, has folding wings & carries a reasonable payload for what it is. Note the slow speed & large wingspan. https://baykartech.com/en/bayraktar-tb3 Trying to… Read more »

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  David

Not sure I would want to touch Boeing with a 10 foot pole right now but would be good to work with the Aussies on this.

eclipse
eclipse
1 month ago

Spectacular. The war in Ukraine has just proven that drones are the way forward and that they do work, but no. This is something that could’ve given the RAF mass, and even this they make a rat’s arse of. Whoever was responsible for this decision truly is an idiot. I have entirely lost faith in the MOD doing anything capable.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago
Reply to  eclipse

I think in this country we really have to completely ban anyone without an engineering or science degree from running and managing technical projects. These are often arts graduates that are running these things and they know diddly squat about technical work. Unfortunately many parts of business, the MoD and government are run by arts graduates ergo the pig’s ear they make of these projects. I’m not surprised at all and indeed I think this doesn’t bode well for Tempest either in my opinion. Tempest will get cancelled or subsumed within a large US programme. I think we need to… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Andrew Thorne
Sean the real Sean
Sean the real Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

John H. Sununu is what i will answer that proposition of yours with , BSC does not mean smart is what that guy learned me .

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago

Okay…..I didn’t quite understand that please translate into some sensible form of English….rather than the pigeon English you have used to articulate whatever point you were making…

eclipse
eclipse
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

I think he tried to quote a phrase which reads, “A BSC does not mean smart is what that guy taught me,” in response to your rather reasonable proposition to requires degrees. I completely agree; if a manager does not have expertise he does not understand what is realistic, what can be solved and how much time that takes, or whether a different approach is required. A person with a degree in economics or arts is not going to make a good manager.

Uninformed Civvy Lurker
Uninformed Civvy Lurker
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Surely all you need leading the team is someone with an Arts Degree, if all you plan on achieving is a load of fancy Artist’s Impressions and CGI videos ?
We are world leaders in presentations and concepts.
Don’t even need to go to the trouble of building actual models, let alone flying prototypes anymore to get multi £millions of revenue to fund some fancy drawings.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago

That made me chuckle…great post! You are 100% right as well 🙂

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago

Mind you Putin is also a CGI warrior. Some of his CGI is so good he believes that it is real?

Most of it looks like it was created by a primary school class.

Bob
Bob
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

I can assure you there are no “Arts graduates” running technical projects in DSTL.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
1 month ago
Reply to  eclipse

I dont think it needs such a knee jerk reaction reading the article. Technology is obviously moving at a rapid rate in this area, and the powers that be must think we can get something even more capable a little further down the line, that will also fall in line with the Tempest project. A lot of research is happening in this area of defence, so don’t lose hope just yet. It’s not like Mosquito was due in operational service anytime soon.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Time will see if you are right. Let’s see in the next 4 years when the money for Tempest needs renewing….that will be the acid test in my opinion.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Yes I agree. Let’s see if Tempest gets past the demonstrator phase. It’s going to be hugely important for the British
defence industry, but also hugely expensive. I still wouldn’t rule out the possibility of us joining the American NAGD project with other nations like Japan, Italy ect further down the line once we all have a better grasp of the technology invloved and the real costs calculated. Time will tell. 👍

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Tempest will be an action replay of TSR2. The UK will develop a fantastic product, have a financial crisis and be forced to scrap it and implement an inferior US solution in exchange for a US bail out of our impoverished post Brexit economy.

Last edited 1 month ago by Paul.P
Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Our economy is a very long way from needing a bail out from anyone.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

I see Ultra will be sold to Cobham and thence to US private equity holders.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul.P

No, more likely another government comes in ,moves the deckchairs, and cancels the lot. Not financial, but ideology. The money will always be there we are a rich powerful country. They are not forced to do anything.

Defence projects run over a long period and there should be a consensus and ringfencing between Con/Lab over long term defence projects and plans for the UKs benefit.

Instead, they are too busy trying to destroy the other with mass mud slinging to get elected next to deploy their own ideologies.

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago

Sadly our days of being a “rich powerful country” are long gone, we just behave as if we still are. The problem is debt, or more accurately the interest on our debt. I think I read somewhere last week, probably the Mail, that it was nearing £100B a year and is now the third largest spending ‘department’ after the NHS and Social Security. With what appears to be a gradual increase in interest rates this looks to be a case of either our taxes go up, expenditure goes down or they print some more £ leading to more inflation. The… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

Thankfully our politicians don’t use Putin’s plan for winning next-time: imprison and murder all your political opponents.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  JohninMK

The rest of the G7 will have debt, yes? And yet here we are, part of G7, part of UNSC, with a nuclear deterrent, a modern military, and a top Soft Power too.

Respectfully, I think you’re looking at negatives only.

JohninMK
JohninMK
1 month ago

Very true, but all you mention are associated with our illustrious past, not our current indebted state and just because we seem to be in the same boat as many others isn’t necessarily a good thing or a protection. You are right, I am probably being negative but as to how we get out of it I have a suspicion but don’t have a clue. It is a serious problem mainly due to none of our politicians being prepared to face it headon, ignoring it doesn’t mean that it will go away. As I said, I think they will use… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul.P

You mean a Labour government gets elected and cancels it along with other important defence projects?

Let’s hope not, they’re a joke party.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Looking back over the last 100 years there has only been a labour government for about 25% of the time; typically periods of significant social change following a crisis or WW e.g. universal suffrage following WW1, universal education and health care following WW2, social freedoms following the approval of the pill in 1960 and legal abortion in 1967. Brexit, Ukraine, Scottish Nationalism and migration pressures, when combined could be enough to trigger a systemic social and economic change – so a labour or a lib-lab coalition is definitely on the cards come the next election. We might see proportional representation.… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Yeah the last time the Liberals went into coalition government worked so well for them at the next election…

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

If you want to keep society the same (hierarchical, competitive, paternalistic) vote Tory. If you want a society which is bottom up, co-operative and democratic vote labour. Vote liberal if you can’t decide and have a tendency to libertinism.

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul.P

Thank you for confirming than you can’t have a competitive society under Labour or Liberals. Of course we saw that in the 79’s and 80’s with uncompetitive industries going to the wall and mass unemployment. Salaries offered were uncompetitive too, so we saw our brightest and best leave with the brain drain to the USA. We even saw competition was frowned on in sport, taking part was all that mattered, consequently we won didly squat at the Olympics. In short without competition, we decline into inefficiency, mediocrity, and permanent decline. In short, the ‘levelling-down’ that socialism always achieves; cf USSR,… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Sean
Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  Sean

Neither system works indefinitely. Capitalism has an exponential tendency to go out of control and requires periodic correction. This usually takes the form of a war and/or a depression. Vanilla socialism as you say kills the spirit. But our current economics is not working. 1% own 50% of the wealth and although we produce enough food to feed everyone 800million are starving. We see world wide waves of migration from Africa and Central America to safe havens in the US and Europe. Boris has been pursuing essentially a mix of social democratic policies and red blooded Brexit to keep as… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul.P

No it doesn’t, capitalism has periodic wobbles of varying degrees. But ultimately it is self-correcting and continues onwards, as it has done for thousands of years. Your comments about it needed wars or depressions is straight out of the books of the conspiracy socialists who claim wars are ‘engineered’ for this purpose. The reason why the world produces so much food now is capitalism, and the reason why Europe and the USA are see as safe havens is that because real poverty has been effectively eradicated here. By real poverty I refer to the poverty of medieval or even Victorian… Read more »

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

NGAD seems an unlikely option for the UK, the US is already talking about it possibly costing multiple 100’s of millions of dollars per aircraft. Not to mention the lack of any UK IP. It would be the death of fast jet development in the UK with massive skilled, high paying job losses across BAES, RR, Leonardo UK etc. Then there’s the issues the UK has faced getting weapons integrated on F-35 that doesn’t make being part of another US dominated program attractive. The Tempest program key requirement has always been for an affordable platforms, so the RAF can get… Read more »

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 month ago

Agreed mate. They cannot let the cost run out of control otherwise Tempest will not become a reality. And a careful balance of capability expectations will also be required. The idea we can get some super stealthy, long range fighter that can run rings around a F22 and is cheap is a pipe dream. It requires a whole new way of thinking, and the capability will come over time.

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

There were a couple of very good interviews with the RAF and BAES at the 2018 launch where they talked about risk mitigation by spiraling solutions out of Typhoon and also the balance of capability that you mentioned (links below). Perhaps most critically the Tempest program seems to be adopting a very flexible approach to the commercial partnerships that will hopefully avoid the work-share issues that seem to dog multinational programs.

BAES interview – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogAtFy3q3xk

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
1 month ago
Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 month ago

Thanks for the links mate, I’ll take a look👍

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

Considering what is going on with Polictics right now, 4 years is a long time. The current government loves announcing big projects spending a lot of money and then cancelling (nothing has been delievered on the leveling up promising). Equally the next goverment or next PM could think its not worth investing in the military and money is better spent elsewhere. Realistically when it comes to British polictics (not just the current goverment, but all the ones in living memory) and MOD budget control failures, its a coin toss if Tempest will happen or if Japan etc will just take… Read more »

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

I would agree with you on that Steve. Booze up in a brewery as I would say the way things are managed…

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

I agree.

You need to take a look at the time from now to get it into production and front line service and then how much services life it will have.

If the answer to the last question is ‘not much’, then iteration needs to start again.

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Agreed. Project Mosquito was a demonstrator project for future capabilities, not a confirmed program to deliver the capability. The RAF Rapid Capabilities Office may have decided that they have a more attractive aircraft platform for the future in the form of Aeralis. All subject to the concept of loyal wingmen in a contested space continuing to make sense in the program’s anticipated late 2030’s implementation. In the interim it seems from the release that they want to develop more modest capabilities with an earlier in service date. Reasons why Aeralis may be more attractive are broad commonality of the platform… Read more »

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  eclipse

We don’t know the full facts yet, it might be that the demonstrator was just incapable of achieving any miltiary objectives or was massively unrealiable etc. Continuing investing in stuff that doesnt’ work isnt’ good use of a limited budget.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

True we’ll see whether it was like the Ajax debacle or just got cancelled because of the expense…time will tell…

Jon
Jon
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

How could it have been unreliable when it wasn’t built?

Somehow what was designed wouldn’t have fulfilled what they deemed necessary. LANCA: Lightweight Affordable Novel Combat Aircraft. My guess is that they actually designed an aircraft so that criterion is checked, and it fell down on one of the others.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Jon

We’re headed for LENCA. Light Expensive Novel Combat Aircraft.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago

Shortly for testing at RAF Luton?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago

That’s the one! Shhhhhhhh

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 month ago
Reply to  eclipse

👍👍

TypewriterMonkey
TypewriterMonkey
1 month ago

According to the HMG press release dated 25 January 2021. Project Mosquito… “Known as a ‘loyal wingman’, these aircraft will be the UK’s first uncrewed platforms able to target and shoot down enemy aircraft and survive against surface to air missiles.” And to work in conjunction with Typhoon and Tempest, which is all quite ambitious stuff. It seems to have replicated many of the goals of Taranis. I wonder if this might be an acknowledgement that BAE Systems is the logical choice to develop something like this for the UK? That’s my positive take on it, otherwise the negative take… Read more »

Mark Franks
Mark Franks
1 month ago

Well wouldn’t you know it! Surprise surprise

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark Franks

I think most if us could have predicted that. I think the only drones coming out the UK in the next few decades are built by hobbyists. Let’s hope the Tempest and Aeralis programmes don’t follow suit. We absolutely have to find a way of improving our managerial issues in the UK. We have the absolute best engineers just absolutely dire as hell management. We’ve had poor management since the late 1950s and I just don’t know why this is the case other than the selection process for those entering management in the UK. We’ve have to get much better… Read more »

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Thorne

You have to remember Andrew, lots of other countries cancel projects too. So do the Americans. We also have some huge success stories. But people are only interested in the doom and gloom, hence why we see the same type of articles on UKDJ, because they get the most comments. We need to drop the idea that everyone does it better then us, they don’t. Politicians and military top brass face very tough decisions with the money available that we don’t have to make. It’s easy to call them incompetent when we have zero responsibility. These projects are incredibly complex,… Read more »

Damo
Damo
1 month ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Stop talking sense.

Robert
Robert
1 month ago
Reply to  Damo

I’ll try harder next time 😆

Jay R
Jay R
1 month ago

Tempest will be next, to make way for the F35A.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Jay R

Yes, as soon as Starmer is in that and lots else I fear.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago

Joy of joys when it doesn’t get any worse…Captain Hindsight and his motley group of Corbynista’s runs to the rescue…I feel safe already..:(

FOSTERSMAN
FOSTERSMAN
1 month ago

All familiar story, obviously this is down to cost/and likely lack of skilled workers. Shame really because a nation our size should have it own independent drone program, now we will have to buy American which does nothing to level up the nation and have a knock on effect for the weapons industry as we will be forced again to buy American missile’s.
I wonder if this will have an effect on the navy’s drone plan as well?.

Jay R
Jay R
1 month ago
Reply to  FOSTERSMAN

When the US and MOD work together every project is a massive success. P8, River Joint, Chinook, Hercules, C17, AIM120, Harrier, Apache, Harrier II, Tomahawk, F35, Trident etc etc. Europe causes problems for the UK. The MOD should turn to the US for all future aviation procurement. This includes the UAVs and 6th generation fighters. Post Brexit, the UK needs to follow Israel, Japan, South Korea and Canada and work together with the US, not Europe. We have more in common with Americans than we do the French and Germans.

FOSTERSMAN
FOSTERSMAN
1 month ago
Reply to  Jay R

Don’t get me wrong I’m not bashing the US it’s more a frustratingly all too familiar story. The problem with the US is that we will only ever be a minor partner, what sort of work share % could we ever have in those platforms you’ve mentioned. Then we will be locked out of the assets being compatible with our own weapon systems, forcing us to buy US off the shelf. And who owns the final product after we have used it, are we allowed to sell it- what if it’s a US sanctioned nation? Now I’m not criticising the… Read more »

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  Jay R

The problem is the USA under demented Joe aren’t exactly super fruendly towards the UK. Look at their tampering with North Ireland which is part of the UK. Their actions are akin to the UK saying the USA should allow Alaska to become an independent state or better still rejoin Russia or Canada.

Griizzler
Griizzler
1 month ago
Reply to  Jay R

Bugger the yanks…this smacks of.the same intervention that scuppered TSR2 and ended.up.with the Phantom…a good aircraft but no TSR2. …We should have our own Drone design and manufacturing capability..if this is the end and not some path to another development it’s an absolute disgrace. As far as having more in common with America a country run by gun tooting religious zealots (see recent gun and abortion laws) I’d prefer to have closer ties with Scandanavian an European countries.The only reason we stay in bed with them is because they are the suggest bully in the playground.. We have ceded too… Read more »

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Jay R

Don’t underestimate the amount of Israeli input into US systems. Iron dome’s low cost and success totally took US by surprise. I would hazard a guess that it leveraged a lot of theoretical work, that could not be put into practice, for the grandiose Moscow ABM system. I’m going to be a bit controversial here. Bear with me. In Soviet times Jewish scientists could only work in certain functions in Russia and were unable to work in most universities. So they mostly worked in the Maths or Physics institutes that did defence related work. Once Peristroika happened, and things fell… Read more »

Sean
Sean
1 month ago

Nothing controversial there.

Joe16
Joe16
1 month ago
Reply to  Jay R

I would have to disagree. We have been shafted just as often, and often harder, by the US in the military industrial arena- honestly. Those projects you mention work because the US has already purchased enough of them to work, and we just jump in on the procurement with a project involvement that ranges from token to nominal. Euro projects are so fractious because the programme relies on everyone’s order numbers to be a success, but everyone wants a significant piece of the design and manufacturing pie while ordering as few units as possible. Even we do this, although Germany… Read more »

Meirion X
Meirion X
1 month ago
Reply to  Jay R

Only 15% of UK companies work share in F-35.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  FOSTERSMAN

I doubt it is skills.

This will most likely be a vac formed composite shell. So not made in the traditional way at all.

It is more likely shape/capacity/power/endurance issues because it was to be a multi functional platform.

The clue is in the desire for a range of single function platforms.

It got too complicated: and got cancelled.

Cameron
Cameron
1 month ago

I think they mean they have found something cheaper which will do the job just as well.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago

A surprise. And then again not, given the never ending trials since the early mid 000s that don’t result in kit in service as the next best thing allows the can to be kicked further down the road.

Never ending trials and concepts for kit that is always in the future.

Come 2035 we will be testing something else “for future force 2040”

Very disappointed.

Andrew Thorne
Andrew Thorne
1 month ago

I actually think they should name it force 4000 and that gives them plenty of wiggle room to develop airfix planes for the RAF, rubber ducks for the Navy and action man tanks for the army….

Last edited 1 month ago by Andrew Thorne
JamesD
JamesD
1 month ago

I made this point on twitter and was shot down, pun intended. Tech demonstraters are great if they actually produce results but all we ever seem to do is demonstrate tech but never build off of it

Joe16
Joe16
1 month ago

Likewise, I was really hoping that all this talk of “levelling up”, “Global Britain” and re-investing in industry in general and the regions in particular would be more than just election-winning talk. Especially with all the very recent proof of how effective drones can be. This should have been an example of giving our military a world-beating capability that could be exported as a high-tech, high-value (high-wage for the fabricators, not just the executives) product to our allies. But no, it would seem not. Global Britan under this particular government appears to mean buying cheap stuff from everywhere and undercutting… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Joe16

That’s appreciated Joe. And can you really see another government being any different beyond cancelling it?

It’s a long term thing it doesn’t happen quickly. Covid and the greatest public health emergency in decades has hardly helped.

Joe16
Joe16
1 month ago

For sure not, Labour have no better a track record in terms of protecting key British industries- this isn’t a Tory/Labour thing to me. I acknowledge the difficulties of the last few years, but unfortunately I don’t hold a lot of positivity; the deals we’re signing now give no protections for British industry, reduce standards rather than maintain or improve on them. These are with fairly close allies such as Australia, so I’m not sure what good we can expect from the bigger ones. This is not a question of left or right: The US is about as far right… Read more »

Sean the real Sean
Sean the real Sean
1 month ago

The English had a brilliant drone flying over South Australia testing ground Woomera , so good that the Australians approached the UK government for an combined development way before loyal Wingman and for a different mission . They were advised it had no future funding . Also an certain aerospace company refused solicitations for funding from Australia for continuation without an commitment from they’re own Government . Boeing’s Genesis story on the Ghost Bat basically evolves around how they talked the Ozzies out of copying Drone T for what they had to offer.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago

Taranis.

Marked
Marked
1 month ago

Surprise surprise. There goes any hope of unmanned supporting the handful of jets we have. Expect the same for every project these inept clowns are working on.

Ianbuk
Ianbuk
1 month ago

Yet Turkey, a nation with a far smaller defence budget has world beating drone production and will be developing their very own jet powered drones. As usual, we will end up at the behest of US manufacturing and the associated issues of where, hen and how it’s used.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago

FFS. How much money has been wasted on this project only for it to be cancelled. Why cancel it?
Unless there is something coming out that is an off the shelf product and UK made.

NickBeckington
NickBeckington
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

Lets hope they do get something, I doubt it will be UK made after they have cancelled this though

Damo
Damo
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

They’ve cancelled it because it won’t meet the project aims haven’t they? Better that than just keep chucking money at it, surely?

Bob
Bob
1 month ago

Hopefully more information regarding the reason for this cancellation with be forthcoming?

If it’s a technical shortfall then fair enough I guess, but I hope it isn’t another bean counter issue.

David
David
1 month ago

It’s possible that the war in Ukraine is offering some different insights into drones. The Ukrainians are now saying that drones worked well at the start but now Russia has its air defence better sorted they are becoming a less useful asset. Mainly restricted to intelligence gathering at distance. The smaller drones still work but they are not putting the Turkish drone to the same use as the start. The Ukrainians are questioning whether they even want the USA MQ drones. Unless drones can defend themselves against advanced air defence systems they will be useless in a major war with… Read more »

DanielMorgan
DanielMorgan
1 month ago
Reply to  David

The US realized a couple of years ago that drones were not survivable on the modern battlefield against a quality enemy. Thus the continuing efforts to cancel the MQ-9 program and refusal to fund a replacement for it. Instead it is going in a new direction, yet to be determined. I think that the wrong lessons are being learned from the Ukraine War re drones.

Netking
Netking
1 month ago
Reply to  DanielMorgan

I think this is a good point. In a contested environment, drones like these won’t last very long as we have seen numerous examples of them being shot down. In terms of which direction the US is moving with regards to drones in contested environments, it’s becoming increasingly clear that the new ISR asset is the RQ-180 as they are increasingly spotted by military enthusiast around the world. I don’t think the US military even acknowledges that this aircraft exist although we have seen several pictures of them.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Netking

There are drones and there are drones.

The only ones that have been tested extensively in Ukraine are mid tech……

Netking
Netking
1 month ago

Could it be that they cancelled this with the intention of joining the AUS loyal wingman project which seems farther along in it’s development, all part of some yet undisclosed AUKUS arrangement?

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Netking

I’ve literally no idea.

It isn’t impossible but we are trying to be less US dependant and Loyal Wingman is a AUS Boeing project?

RAF have had a lot of trouble getting UK weapons integrated on F35B and the export issues with various missiles have lead to US Content being reduced to zero for new manufactured units.

So quite how full of US sensors Loyal Wingman is, is I would suspect the central question.

The other side of the coin may be that it is already networked for F35B so it could be an easy drop in for F35B.

Jon
Jon
1 month ago

Boeing have said where Ghost Bat is built, Brisbane or the US, will depend on the market to be exported to.

The nose-mounted sensors are supposed to be mission swappable, so they might be the least problematic thing about buying Boeing.

Supportive Bloke
Supportive Bloke
1 month ago
Reply to  Jon

Who owns the software and who can modify it: might be more the issue?

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago