A Norwegian submarine arrived in Faslane this weekend for a routine visit to the base near Glasgow.
Twitter user Mister Boggers captured an image of the Uredd arriving at Gare Loch, you can find his profile here.
Feel free. First time I've ever had a sub show up on a tracker.
Have more shots if you wish to compare, more HD than that one.
— Mister Boggers (@BoggersGnome) October 8, 2022
According to Military-Today.com, the six Ula-class submarines are intended primarily for coastal operations, and are, therefore, comparatively small in size and limited in their diving depth to some 250m.
“Since the deletion of the last six of the original 15 Kobben class boats in the second half of the 1990s, the Norwegian navy operates just six submarines in the form of the boats of the Ula class with diesel-electric propulsion. The boats are named Ula, Uredd, Utvaer, Uthaug, Utstein and Utsira. Though much of the hull and all of the propulsion machinery are German, the boats were completed with a mix of French, German and Norwegian systems.”
Over the last two weeks, an American submarine and a French submarine have also visited.
Faslane is the second largest single-site employer in Scotland, after the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital in Glasgow. The base is one of the Royal Navy’s three main operating bases, alongside HMNB Devonport and HMNB Portsmouth. It is best known as the home of the UK’s four Vanguard-class nuclear-armed submarines which carry Trident II D-5 ballistic missiles.
New figures unearthed by Deidre Brock, MP for Edinburgh North and Leith, reveal that just over 6,000 people are directly employed at Faslane and Coulport.
The figures show that of the 6,068 civilian and military personnel working at Faslane and Coulport, 4,583 are Scottish taxpayers.
I’d say the Norwegians are counting down the days till they get the new U212C/D
For sure. However an AIP conventional sub would be a useful and probably quick way to add some additional capability to the RN.
4-5 SSKs could screen the SSBNs as well as provide protection for critical underwater infrastructure.
I’d go Japanese Soryu class with lithium ion batteries. Endurance is excellent. Crew of 69.
£500 million each. Bargain.
Is it a bargain when compared to the £1.2Bn unit cost of the massively more capable and comfortable* Astutes?
No point in acquiring something that we cannot crew.
I’m always quite surprised how cheap the Astutes are TBH – given nuclear and all the rest of the tech in them.
*comfort in any sub is a relative concept!
Yes, a very realative concept!!
A crew of 69 seems quite large. Some of these new euro boats have half that.
If it was truly to be considered and planned for I would look at Swedish, Netherlands, Norway boats will small crew and space for special forces.
These would be for coastal landings, uk, Baltic, Middle East ops.
Only if this didn’t come at the cost nuclear boats.
I can’t see timeframes fitting together as by the time these could be ready the astute replacement could of been sped up with the monies spent on these boats. Give me 12 of them over a mixed fleet of 8 and 6
I’d be tempted to agree.
Until you get to the Hi-Lo mix of T26 / T31. So Hi-Lo is a thing in RN thinking. Same, I suppose, with RB2.
That said nuclear is a game changer in the sun world.
If we are training nuclear engineers en mass for AUS then up scaling the program, slightly further, is more plausible.
All depends really if we want to operate in areas like the Baltics or Black Sea really amongst others. Would be useful but not a priority esp as I suspect if we get serious it would already be close to suicide for Russian subs in the Baltics it’s a time factor really.
Agree, the SSN fleet is the most important to develop, with electric boats being a nice to have.
Although it does have its advantages if you can increase the hull numbers significantly over a wholly nuclear fleet, but I doubt it would, instead it would limit the size of the nuclear fleet, as you say if we can we should be looking to maximise the number of SSNRs. Looking at the SSN tasking we really need at least 3 deployed ( carrier escort, supporting the CASD, and one doing SSN stuff) which means at least 9 boats with 12 being nice).
But as we are not going to be getting SSNR until the 2040s there is possibly a space. Also if we do up the numbers of SSNRs above the numbers of astutes we would need to train up the number of submariners needed, so maybe bringing in a small fleet of electric boats to run from the late 20s, to late 40s gives that method of working up the needed crews.
from a pure tasking around protecting subsea infrastructure and more local waters work, autonomous UUVs may offer the way for less money…so the way to go may depend on the numbers of SSNs envisaged for the late 40s into the 50s.
Hi Jonathan, it is a common misconception on here that SSNs are
specifically deployed to assist/aid CASD units. SSBNs are more than capable of looking after themselves, with SSNs doing all that ‘other’ stuff which indirectly supports CASD.
I have noticed that aswell often. The thought that an ssn is protecting the SSBNs.
As you say SSBNs are probably the most quiet when operating in sneaky mode on missile patrol. They have spearfish torpedoes and most of the stuff an ssn has.
The fact the Royal Navy SSBN and French navy SSBN crashed into each other under the water gives an insight into how quiet they are when operating in quiet mode.
Reasonably certain we could make you a one time, good deal on some (slightly) used LA class SSNs. Low mileage, hardly ever left port. 😉
Slighty? 1 careful owner, only 1 million miles,
How about a swap for some slightly used and abused trafalgar and swiftsure subs.
Rumours have it you can still smell deep32 on bunk 14😂😂😂
Deep,
Tours aboard Swiftsure, Trafalgar and/or Astute classes?
You have Conqueror in Devonport that is open to the public I believe. And both an old A boat and X craft in the SM museum in Gosport also. Unfortunately no other Nuc SMs are open, so you have to rely on port visits and then if they open them to the public. After what happened in Southampton, not sure if they would!
Sorry, mate, for the misinterpretation of the question posed. I meant to ask which SSN and/or SSBN classes you had served tours on? Again, apologize for the framing of the question.
No worries,
2 x Swirtsure class (both special fit).
2 x Trafalgar class.
1 x Resol class.
1 x Vanguard class (twice).
You definitely got around, and did your bit! 👍😁
Do career track sailors typically migrate between SSNs and SSBNs? Always understood most were slotted into one or the other. Not certain re USN.
Back in the day(pre 2000), it was basically a geographical split in the country. The Northern half served in Faslane, the Southern half Devonport/Portsmouth, driven largely by personnel preferences. You obviously always had the issue of being sent where needed by the RN, that was mostly non-preference drafts.
We have always had non-preference drafts, when we finally lost our SSKs, we probably started to get more non preference postings.
Fast forward today, everything is based in Faslane, now you get the diehards who prefer one class to the other, and those that don’t mind. Nowadays you would probably be extremely lucky not to cross migrate between the classes.
Very interesting, someday will ask someone knowledgeable whether USN has similar practice. 🤔
Do you shine green at night. Thanks for your service in the dence of the UK. Just out of interset can you say what the special fit was. Or do I have a good idea.
You probably have a good idea of what it implies.
HMS Courageous is open to the public.
We should buy 2 or 3 212’s ourselves. Why buy a set of 4 or 5? They dont need to be there 24/7 do they? Can we do without them? Its a requirement and skill we could do with. Anyway we borrow them from the European navies much of the time.
Ah wrong one, my error there then!
Well, delving into the world of fantasy fleets, the Type 212/CD wouldn’t be my choice of SSK, personally I would go for the A26 design and have 4-6 of them in two different sizes, 2xPeligic and 4xOceanic ER. Failing that I would prefer to have 4x JPN Taigei class SSKs, no AIP, just more Lithium ion batteries. But that’s just my preference!
I totally agree. If I could have a fantasy sub fleet for the RN 8 Astute class and 12 A26s or Taigei. The A26s would be 4 Peligic and 8 ER with three tube VLS systems and a SBS mobule. Then again what do I know, apart from this the SSN is a hunter killer a AIP is a extremly quiet platform. Does an SSN want to take on a AIP in a dirrect one to one limited area where the AIP is in defence mode. Not sure. Nuc even at all stop has pumps going, AIP in all stop black hole. As I have said in a diffrent post, if the UK could find the budget for 12 SSNs then I would prefer 8 SSNs and 12 A26s or Taigei class AIP subs. Preferably the A-26 class.
Deep 32 I do have a question that you could answer, I have argued very often on the stupidity of deploying a SNN to the Med, Baltis etc. My reasons for the stupidity is as follows, lack of deep water, clarity of water, area of ops. I will and alway will argue that for the Med, Baltic, North Sea, Norwegian coast line smaller AIP subs 2-3,000 tons is best suited.
It’s really a bit subjective to give an opinion on. The continental shelf (0-200m) is really mostly to shallow for SSN ops, although they obviously do operate here. The closer to shore, the shallower the water, again more suited to SSK ops.
The Baltic’s whilst deep, is only so in certain areas, also contains a lot of fresh water run off from the rivers that flow into it. This causes deep keeping issues for SMs. Additionally there is only one very restrictive way in/out, so generally not somewhere you want to put a SSN into. It’s really a play pond for SSKs. Back in the late 70s/80s we put our O boats in there on a regular basis.
The Med, different kettle of fish. Yes whilst the waters are pretty clear to spot SMs from the air, it’s a big sea lots of deep water, and for most of the year, a water column that aids SMs. Again yes there are areas where a SSK has a distinct advantage, but overall it’s good SSN territory.
Hope that helps you.
No mate not mine! Mine was always Stbd side fwd outer middle rack, nice and quiet up there.😴😴😂
Haha. Funny how people get attached to certain locations.
Thanks for the offer but a LA class, god the Virgina class has nothing apart from a bigger weapons fit on our Astutes. If I remember correctly one of our Astutes was getting up close and personal for several hours on one of your Virginias before the RN skipper got bored. To be honest if you asked any US Sub skipper if he want to take on an Astute on a one to one, I think he will say NO. So thanks for the offer but no thanks. On top of the diffrence in the sub you have the diffrence in training, a US skipper is a nuc engineer/sub warfare trained skipper a RN skipper is combat trained and trusts the engineers. The one is a multi task skipper the other is an out and out sub warfare skipper. Then again if memory serves me right the skippers of the US carriers are air combat officers plus have qualifications in nuclear power then get some surface ship qualifications, whilst the skipper of a RN carrier are surface ship officers. Yes the US carrier as well as the sub skipper are more rounded but to go into combat the skipper must know what he or she is doing, know what the escorts can do and fight the battle whilst trusting his/her officers, crew to do their jobs.
Put it a simple way, when I use a kettle to make coffee I switch on the kettle boil some water and make a coffee, I don’t think, can the kettle do it, what are the specs of the kettle, I trust the engineers and techs that designed and built the damed thing to do the job that I need. Will I push the kettle to give me 200 C no, if I want it to do that either I get a diffrent bit of kit or I get an engineer to tell me what to do.
Believe me you don’t want to worry about the engine room when fighting a battle, you worry about the battle and the engine room will do what you need or want. Thats why they have spent many years in college, Uni and they know what they are doing.
I know the diffrence in the RN, after my time in the Army as a communications engineer I joined the RNR as a weapons electronics engineer. You wanted a signal to get from A-B I would get it there, even bending the laws on signal transmission, god I would get into trouble in the Royal Signals for that with some as the comments you cant do that to the equipment, with others thanks forgetting the signal through. After some time with the RNR I used to volunteer on board ship at the wheel or putting the ship through some tight spots my skipper called me into the office. I really did wonder what trouble I was in or what now. When he told me to sit down I really did think I was in deep do do. Especially as the night before on a combined RN/RAF Herc/SAS I think it was 22 night low level drop and extraction ex where we were to pick up some boats I did a 360 without command to take speed of and to get some distance from the three RIBS crossing ahead, one port two starboard. I then said sorry and asked for relief as I had been at the wheel for ten hours, I took it as my mistake. I was well and trully knackerd, thought I miss understood the situation and acted incorrectly, so I expected a bollocking. Instead the skipper explained he was coming from the bridge to the flying bridge, did not see what was happening and I acted without orders, but acted correctly. I got offered my commision but I had to change from WEPS to Seaman branch to become a skipper. I did ask if I could combine my engineering with commanding a ship of war, the answer was no. An engineer cannot be a captain of a warship. Lesson I learnt, trust my people, to understand enough to know when I don’t understand, and to understand enough to ask the right questions of people who do understand. So when my engineers say it cant be done, then it cant be done I dont need to know why that is their job.
So again No I do not want an LA in the service of the RN and I never want a US skipper to command a RN SSN. To work with yes then again at a distance.
Sorry, assumed everyone realized I was being entirely facetious w/ that answer (hence, winking emoji at end of text). Will strive to either more clearly label attempted humor in the future, or forego attempts altogether. 🤔
And an additional diesel sub/UUV base on the East Coast for easy access to the North and Baltic Seas.
But additional capability for what? With Russia gone as a threat, our navy will focus even more on far away places, where SSNs are far more effective, due to their longer legs. If we had a fleet of conventional subs, we would also need to build a whole load of new bases around the world for them. Plus subs just don’t do the show the flag job that is needed when operating at large distances.
I do agree, from a U.K. point of view we have need for influence far away, but we do have a need to secure sub sea infrastructure, but that may be better done by UUVs.
Not really sure how you can realistically protect the infrastructure. Its spread across hundreds of miles, it would be insanely hard to secure it all. Sending ships to protect it I suspect is more about optics than a realistic defensive move. For sure though it’s been proven to be a threat that needs a solution.
Barring the Astute that turned up in Australia t’other year.
(Yes, yes, it was sales related).
To be honest, critical infrastructure and home waters is the sort of thing a fleet of Autonomous UUVs Could do very well, they can just plod around at a few knots, with very low levels of crew needed and In far higher operational numbers than we could ever get crewed electric boats.
How do you think control of the unmanned stuff should be managed? Being next to communications cables could be very useful.
I wonder if we will see a mothership concept. I was thinking a conventional sub could be made to launch/recover, charge the UUV’s and provide some control and response to issues. The immediate problem I thought of was power demands if the sub was to be used to charge them. Going to be surface trips required often.
Again though it may be better to put resources into replacing the broken systems quickly than trying to police them.
to be honest the tender for these resources could be quite a basic floaty boat.
communications through water and between the water air interface are starting to move on as they have managed to push cohesion paired photons through turbulent water, which means we are sort of getting to the stage where quantum comms it looking to be practical. I know the US have practically undertaken an exercise using quantum communications across the air water interface and through to a nuclear sub, the chinese are working hard on this tec as well.
The truth is they would need to be pretty independent autonomous systems and would likely be looking for and not reacting to. The reaction would likely need to be from something in the air and manned.
let’s be honest just a UUV discovering someone and reporting, is likely to have them moving away in the other direction.
Not so simple as you think. So communications through water, That is a nightmare, so I will start with high levels comms through the air. So yes we all know laser, direct line of sight etc. Laser can carry the most data in a small package. Yet, laser has an issue, blooming, as the air get hot from the laser beam the water in the air causes the laser to ‘steam off’. This will cause a weaknes in signal return.Green laser is better in a high level water/humidity situation, however due to the frequency in the light it will have a limited range. I did ask my friend if it would be possible to use a green light laser to burn a path and a red light laser to go up the middle. Very much like a cable with an outer insulater. He did explain why its not possilble but to do the explaination would be a few hundred knapkings worth of explaination. It was something to do with the frequecy overlap. Or something with the problem of a proffessor and engineer. Proff find reasons why it does not work, engineers find ways to make it work.
So conculsion we need three types of snoopy boats, one very much designed to go into harms way, possibly a T32 design. One that can be on constant patrol, an upgraded Batch II OPV and the third type which not only undertakes protection of the UK infrastucture but can also do some snoopy work themselves. A big fishing boat comes to mind.
It seems to be that they are moving forward with experimentation with blue green phonons, as they don’t suffer the same attenuation as red light in water. So far the greatest column of water I have found is 55m in this paper.
https://opg.optica.org/prj/fulltext.cfm?uri=prj-7-8-A40&id=416194
but I’ve read a few papers from China in which they are getting the same sort of results. So it seems the cutting edge are very much thinking it’s possible to crack the problem sometime soon.
This biggest issue from reading the various papers is both the are attenuation issue but also the amount bits sending using entangled photons they can achieve 215 kilobits per second. The likely max that the Chinese research has looked at is quantum comms through sea water to a depth of 125 meters at 215 kilobit seconds ( but that’s theory, I’ve not see a paper saying they have got there yet.
I think if your moving away from quantum encryption and entangled photons they have got to a theoretical max of 10megabits per second through 350 meters of water.
The wavelength they are using is 400 to 500nm.
for free air it the papers I’ve read give a max of 177km in free air before attenuation becomes a problem for quantum comms. Infact everything I’ve read says that free air is actual better in some ways than fibre cables although The University of Witwatersrand have published showing you can actually push through multiple patterns of entangled photons through a standard single pattern fibre cable, but it’s gets to weird for me to understand what that paper is talking about as I don’t understand high dimensional spatial modes or what the hell a multidimensional hybrid quantum state is…..I sort of just about manage to get my head around 2D quantum states, just ( as much as anyone with a normal brain can).
Look this is my area of work, we have had for many decades methods to protect cable systems as long as companies and governments were willing to invest a few extra £s per km. Its what we call load bearing plus some others that I won’t go into. A cable is designed to carry X with a throughput of Y we install a key that can read X/Y when the load is diffrent to what is expected we can give not only a reading but to with 10m a location of the feed off. You give me a cable or a signal, then you try to tap in, give me a few hours not only would I find the tap in but I will find the range of the drain out point. What I always found strange is that to find the tap in was a range of plus minus, the tap in point desination was more accurate.
To be honest Ron I was thinking more sabotage that tapping.
What, no Ursula? There was one namesake that seemed mighty fine in a bikini… Seriously, gentlemen, you must have some awesome taverns/sports bars in the vicinity, practically every other time I open this site, another sub is arriving–French, Norwegian, American (which are so numerous you probably have to beat them back w/ a stick). Was this the case prior to 24 Feb 22?
Allied nations boats have always been regular visitors to Faslane. Even more so when a Joint Warrior exercise is taking place.
Understood. Thanks
Haha. It’s in the middle of nowhere. There’s a small town near by and other small towns further away. It’s less than an hours drive to Glasgow so that’s always an option. Or the posh side of Scotland (Edinburgh) is only 45 mins further
Huh, assumed it was party central. USN bases generally near tourist destinations, USAF–not so much.
posh side of Scotland…..?????? the last Northern bastion of posh is in Durham, everything Points North of that Northern bastion is labelled “here be Plebs” the smart set know this…or so I’ve been told ( in a condescending way).
Oh if only you knew the truth. It was actually the Scottish that built Hadrian’s wall to keep those uncivilised Romans out.
I never considered Durham to be posh. Anything south of the border is generally looked on with a skeptical eye.
Had a few nights out in Berwick upon tweed while doing some work at the old barracks there, could barely understand a word that was being said.
We stayed on site in some 400 year old army beds and had big metal baths instead of showers. I will always remember to put the cold in first after getting a burnt arse on my first dip.
Is that not what all English households are like?😂😂😂
To be fair most of us have had to sell iron baths to the scrappy for some cash for the electric meter.
I do hope the next Royal Navy subs and ships get good names. Hopefully the next destroyers will be the E class.
The subs went a bit wonky with the dreadnought class. They should have all begun with D.
One of my favourite names is Indefatigable…
Of course, Ajax has got to be a up there as well.
Cheers CR
I’ll see your Ajax and raise you an Amethyst?
It would seem a friend of my mother was a Stoker, deep below the Waterline, on Ajax during the Battle of the River Plate:
As he said later to my mother, “Perhaps Little Chance of Survival if Ajax was Severely Damaged in the Cross-fire with the enemy of the day, historically speaking”, apparently.
This is still one of my favorite tirades:
Best belly laugh I’ve had in ages! Had me in tears. Brilliant. Thanks Dern.
Dern, that was very clever. You have found your calling… 🙂
Oh I can’t claim credit for writing it, just for finding it and keeping it locked up in my memory banks for moments like this.
😂😂😂
brilliant Dern. Good thing that your clerks weren’t let loose on the RFA
Wave Goodbye, Tealeaf, Figleaf, Yellow Ranger etc etc
I suspect one of the clerk’s might have been on an exchange programme with the USN during WW2…
how else to explain “USS Shangri-La”? 😉
Actually, a revered name to USA, USN and USAF. Reverence created by Pres. Roosevelt when he answered a reporter’s question who asked where the Doolittle Raiders who bombed Tokyo in 1942 launched from, rather than (USS Hornet?).
Excellent! 👍😁 Absolutely convinced both friend and die would give a wide berth to GanS Verminous and especially HMS Venereal! 🤣😂😁
…friend and foe…🙄
…HMS…🙄
😄 HMS Headcase!
I remember former MP George Galloway at an audience with Sadam Hussein, calling him ‘Indefatigable’. Cue Hussein’s translator with blank look on face!
Hmmm…judging by recent comments on this site, assumed the name Ajax was considered a four letter expletive in the King’s English….😉
Not if you put HMS in front of it.
I’m a firm believer that vehicles should not be properly named until in service.
I’m a fan of bringing back rainbow names for prototypes.
I might actually be having a memory problem. Was it called rainbow codes? Red top, blue Danube, red snow etc etc
Good boats but I think a mixed SSN and UUV fleet will be the way we go to get the numbers up. Hopefully we won’t have long to wait to get some idea. Mr Wallace Sir over to you.
Cool… why?
Fine, if the RN gets a few thousand more posts and the effort, money, logistic tail and infrastructure for them does not impact on the SSN fleet. Which I guess it probably would.
So I choose the SSN.
Can we refuel her at this port?
Speaking about subs I have a question, does anyone know what powerplant HMS Angincourt will have. I did read somewhere that the MoD in June 2012 allocated £600 million to RR ‘for the production of the PWR3 for Dreadnought and the final Astute’ which would be Agincourt? Can anyone confirm. Possibly it is a bad sentence construction meaning the final PWR2 and the new PWR3 for the Dreadnoughts or the final Astute is to get the PWR3. However, if I read the sentence in the way it is written then Agincourt is to get the PWR3. In some ways it would make sense but I think it might mean a design change due to size of reactor etc. Which would make her a half sister but a test bed for the Dreadnought class and the future SSN-X. I came across the comment when I was trying to understand the diffrence in the Chinese MSR reactor for the new carrier 004 to the RN PWR reactor, (molten salt reactor-pressure water reactor), So if someone can help me out with this.
As for the Norwegian sub visit, good to see them here in the UK, good submariners, a bit carzy and don’t give them anything more than coffee, maybe on a good day shandy. The few I have come across, well, give them a few whiskey’s and Vikings comes to mind. I am supprised that they are going with a German design for their new subs, I would have thought that the new Swedish A-26 would be better suited.
I really do wish that the RN could get a mixed sub fleet of SSNs and AIP subs. The latest Japanese Taigei class AIP sub that has just been launched costs about £420 million. This would mean if we could get the budget for 12 SSNs we could have 8 SSNs plus 12 Taigei type subs for the same price. We could use the AIP subs in the Med based out of Gib or Brunei, and or Norway, the GIUK gap, they could also do inshore SBS operations. This leaves the SSNs to escort the carriers, SSBNs and go hunting. Thats if we have a SSN escorting the SSBN, I would imagine that we have when she is leaving or entering UK waters but in the deep blue, only God and the big boss knows.
So why not make a deal with Japan or Sweden but I think Japan is my preference, help and in the design phase and then buy Tempest and we will build with help the Taigei type sub here in the UK under technology transfer. I do prefer the Swedish A-26 and its varients, but for the futre of Tempest I think Japan would bring more to the table.