The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has issued a Request for Information (RFI) as part of an effort to gather insights into the development of a new “warship experience” for Royal Navy Cadet Forces and other youth organisations, according to a pre-procurement notice published on 13 August 2024.
The RFI, under Project Powerful, seeks to address the gap left by the decommissioning of HMS Bristol in December 2020.
HMS Bristol had served as a Harbour Training Ship (HTS) at Whale Island, Portsmouth since 1991, providing cadets with vital residential accommodation and a realistic warship experience.
The loss of HMS Bristol, due to escalating maintenance costs and safety concerns, has significantly impacted the Royal Navy’s ability to offer a comprehensive training experience for its cadets and youth groups.
Historically, the HTS at Whale Island supported around 30,000 bed nights and hosted approximately 500 courses annually for cadets and youth participants. The MoD notes that the absence of this facility has diminished the quality and realism of the training experience that the Royal Navy is expected to deliver.
In response, Project Powerful aims to re-establish a UK-based warship training environment that combines residential accommodation with access to water-borne activity facilities.
The objective is to provide cadets with a challenging and contemporary warship experience, readily accessible from their home training locations or during residential camps. This initiative aligns with the Royal Navy’s commitment to Defence Enabling Objective 11.11 and JSP814 Policy and Regulations for MOD Sponsored Cadet Forces.
The RFI is a preliminary step in understanding the capabilities available in the market, both current and emerging. While this is not a tendering opportunity, the MoD has made it clear that any future procurement activities related to Project Powerful will be advertised in line with public procurement regulations on the Defence Sourcing Portal and Contracts Finder.
The Royal Navy currently has two former warships set aside for potential conversion into HTSs:
- HMS ECHO, a Survey Vessel Hydrographic Oceanic (SVHO), decommissioned in 2022, is currently berthed in a non-tidal berth awaiting disposal, subject to being utilised for Project Powerful.
- HMS RAMSAY, a Sandown-class Single Role Mine Hunter made of GRP, is presently being used as a STOROB donor for the Mine Countermeasure Vessel (MCMV) fleet but is not expected to be suitable for regeneration.
The MoD makes clear that respondents to the RFI are not constrained by these options and may propose alternative solutions if available. Interested parties are invited to submit their responses by 11 September 2024.
MoD retiring capabilities and only then looking at a replacement yet again! Sigh…..
Thought Ramsey was being sold to Romania, but guess not. Surely she’s too small to replace a vessel the size of Bristol as an accommodation ship?
Was ridiculous that Echo & Enterprise were ever laid up, but I guess one of them would make for a half decent training and accommodation vessel.
Argyll is pledged to BAE, and whilst Westminster, Montrose and perhaps soon Northumberland will be sitting around they would presumably be a lot more costly to refit and then support.
The issue is if the hull is knackered it is going to need to be fixed and then maintained. And maintained to a high standard as it is filled with kids!!
You think how long Bristol served for…..says something that T23 can’t step in.
As you say all these hulls are far too small for an accommodation vessel.
Good points! Bristol’s hull was presumably built to a higher standard (ie didn’t start out with an intended 18 year lifespan) and whilst she was in active service for over 20 years she wasn’t worked as hard.
Argyll is pledged to BAE but her hull is sound, right? So BAE apprentices could get her to a standard for the role of harbour training ship in a Scottish hsrbour?
Given Bristol was the first and only one of her class, will she end up somewhere as a “Museum” ship or just be scrapped.
Looking at the quoted figure of 30,000 bed nights and 500 courses annually, all I can say is “You’re going to need a bigger boat !”
She would be a very expensive museum ship as she is so big.
Maybe if she had been dry docked she could have been preserved. Is there a spare dry dock big enough? I don’t think she would fit into any of the ones at Chatham?
Thing is you need a certain mass of people visiting to make the museum bit work….so really you need to have as few sites as possible with as many attractions.
I’m not too sure what Bristol would offer in that regard as she will have been stripped at least in part to make her safer for cadets? So she would need a lot of work to put her back to interesting condition.
Nothing left to make her look like a warship unfortunately. To refit her with such even if were available would be very costly and the hull is now well past her best. Its off to the breakers like most others before her.
Fair point re size and state of “original” fit out etc
As a point of interest, look up the history of HMS Warrior’s restoration and journey to become the fantastic museum ship we see today. She is one amazing vessel and quite how she became this good evades me. Same with HMS Victory and a few others dotted around.
It’s one of the biggest travesties of our illustrious maritime history that we have so little to show for it.
For me, it was criminal that not one single Battleship was saved despite their glorious history.
HMS Warspite should be in a dry dock somewhere even given her worn out, beyond economical repair at the time.
Absolutely it’s a shame that we don’t have any Battleships for our maritime history like the USA who have a few Battle wagons on the water plus Cruisers ,Destroyers etc .Pity we didn’t keep HMS Vanguard our last Battleship even though she just miss the war .From reading some years ago government at the time decide to Expense .🙄 Something’s never change 🇬🇧
Warspite and Vanguard and maybe one of the KGV’s should’ve been saved for sure, but the cash wasn’t there, nor was there any drydock space.
Like you I wish we had kept one, for me it would have been Rodney (bit of a give away in my Nom de Plume), simply because she was the most powerful one we ever built and sank the Bismarck.
But we didn’t and at that time we couldn’t, rationing, flattened cities, bankrupt, massively in debt, trying to rearm and a population fed up with recent memories.
The US did, because they could !
But which other country has a Tudor Warship, 2 Sailing Frigates, a Napoleonic Ship of the line, a Sailing Ironclad and lots more.
Have you ever been to Hartlepool to see HMS Trincomalee if not it’s worth the trip. Simply superb.
Also HMS Unicorn up in Scotland and HMS Gannet in Chatham.
Rodney and Warspite would be the two in my dream museum. I note the stuff we do have though, just a shame about the Batleships though.
Not been to Hartlepool, might have to go there one day.
Warspite was far from the only one that was beyond economical repair by the end of the War, both Nelson and Rodney where thoroughly worn out and way too slow for further service, along with all the R class. QE, Valiant and Malaya where in better condition than Warspite, but not by much. Renown was also on her last legs.
Essentially by the time the RN pivoted to the BPF the Royal Navy was down to the KGV’s (with Vanguard on the way).
Warspite had the history, it would have been quite the attraction.
Honestly, by the end of the War pretty much every single RN Battleship had enough History to draw crowds. All the QE’s fought in WWI, and the surviving Revenges had had long and illustrious careers, Rodney and KGV had sank the Bismark… the list goes on.
Why not build a concrete or glass fibre full size replica Britishbattleship…..would not cost that much….Todd Boehly could sponsor it as a gesture…only need to fit out the bridge and maybe inside one gun turret and you’d have a complete visitor experience.
👍👍👍
Monmouth or Montrose should have been earmarked for it as soon as they left service
Yeah surely there could have been a drop of foresight here, are either of those two still available?
Both are well past their best and not fit to be used in such a role. Very cramped within and failing systems. The Echo will do nicely as some areas to be converted into additional accommodation and should have a fair amount of life left in her hull and systems. Lots of open deck space too.
T23 were designed for a crew of 180 whereas Echo’s crew was 48.
Accommodation layout in T23 was a generation plus ahead of Bristol.
The Sea Cadet Corps would fill the Bristol for their national annual camps. Bristol had accommodation for nearly 400.
There would be a limited refit of hotel systems anyway.
Echo would be too small I think.
What use is open deck space? All sports would take place on either hard pitch or on the grass pitch in front of Excellent’s wardroom.
I only speak from what I have seen going on around Bristol.
Although she had a smaller crew there is a lot of space below and the open deck area allows you to add services though fitted out container units etc allowing far greater numbers to be accommodated. The T23 accom was little better than the Bristol or T42’s it only really changed when the Daring Class came along and honestly was not that great and upgrade either, having been on both classes.
The T23’s are all well passed their best and not fit for further service and should all have been replaced some years ago. Only other option would be a ferry unit but that hardly gives the ‘Naval Experience’ to anyone.
We will see and it will be lowest cost in the end of the options available.
Echo is half the size designed for a much smaller crew. There can’t be enough space even with containers. Never mind services. That is if containerised accommodation would be allowed for health and safety reasons. Looking it up Echo had space for 6 containers, how many children per container would that be? As I said Bristol could accommodate 400 and my Sea Cadet contact tells me Bristol at times was full.
As for T23 accommodation well surely these are children just camping in a ship not sailors going away for a six month deployment?
I think from what I have seen of Bristol and my contact’s direct experience suggests that Echo would not be the best option.
Hopefully a Type 23 somewhere 🤔 Has for Echo and Enterprise think to small . With the Navy short on hulls always thought could this vessels not be converted into mine warfare has mother ships or in the new under sea cable cutting problem fight . Has ships from trade have been RE Rolled ,has always cost in mind.
Montrose is sitting on a mooring at Portsmouth, although she has been well stripped of anything useful i would imagine
Too soon to suggest Northumberland or Albion, then?
Knew someone would suggest Northumberland!
If she’s in a really bad material state like Westminster than it would presumably be too expensive to refit up to an acceptable standard and then support long term. Hulls designed for 18 years service and guts from the early 90’s.
Nah. If the holes in the sides get too big, just hook up new bilge pumps to those firefighting hoses they have on tugs and have a permanent water feature. It would look a lot better than the Admiral Kuznetzov’s smoke show.
Personally I’d like to think we could keep a T23 to fill this vacancy as there is no hope we will ever see one as a museum ship.
Might this end up being HMS Albion or HMS Bulwark, much more room for personnel than a frigate. Much more scope for classroom like facilities and a well deck what more could you ask for ?
Fair point but at the same time a loss to the active fleet 👍
Costly and require high maintenance with a dedicated crew, no spare crew around these days and rather large for the allocated berth too.
Don’t give them idea’s lol.
I thought most of the fleet was in harbour…😇
Holiday time 🏖
👍
What an odd RFI. Who has an old but serviceable warship floating around? For the numbers quoted, it needs to be bigger than Echo or a mine hunter. Why wasn’t the replacement for Bristol planned for in good time? What on earth do the many, very many, senior RN officers do all day?
I mean, there aren’t alot of suitable candidates and they’re certainly not going to build something for the role.
Planning in good time is not a RN tradition I believe.
HMS Ark Royal was refitted and then it was decided to prematurely scrap her. She would have been great in this role, with plenty of room available. Too bad she was not just held in reserve.
Whilst the Marine Cadet ( of Many years hence) loves that idea. Ark Royal would be too big. You have an active, multi berth/ boarding commercial port between Whale Island & the Naval Docks.
She would stick out way too much into the channels the ferries use.
I got my RYA Coxswain whilst billeting on Bristol, spent several weeks long summer camps on both her & her predecessor ( whose name escapes me, Kent maybe?). And learnt not just naval & marine skills but important life skills whilst aboard.
The proposed hulls wouldn’t be nearly adequate as we’d pack hundreds of us at a time back in the day.
RE: open deck space. Colours were always held morning and evening on the aft decks so you do need a reasonable amount of real estate to fit all the kiddos for that if nothing else.
Echo and Ramsey too small for accomadation , any type 23 that’s going would do Bristol was actually fitted out as a HTS prior too that there was the Ramehead and then the Kent neither of which were had been altered for groups Male and Female SCC or CCF even sea scouts a lot of dinghy sailing meals up the top Whale Island bunk
down on board
There was also groups of screaming kids in groups of 30+ and on many occasions 2, or more groups male and female Winter ok peaceful spring and summer a nightmare
Admiralty recognised Sea Scouts, ATC, and even ACF.
A contact tells me they have taken over 50 kids to Portsmouth and shared the Bristol with other groups. The Bristol also hosted national Sea Cadet courses too.
Bristol was a big ship areas of the ship had been converted into classrooms and recreation spaces plenty of room
Not that many classrooms and not that many recreation spaces. My contact tells me there was lots of mess decks still in tact.
Ikara main mag , and Seadart mag , Wardroom, most mess’s barr Ships company not sure on 4 deck mess’s but 3 deck and above would have been used .
Was this last refit?
Haven’t the faintest, she’s been decommissioned now sad sight from what can be seen Stephanie
Fortunately, no one has contemplated the potential candidacy of HMS Queen Elizabeth or Prince of Wales yet, even in jest. 🤔 Whoops, any Treasury drone on this site, please ignore this post. 😉
Where is RFA Diligence? Isn’t she sat somewhere?
Perhaps one of the Waves? RFA vs. HMS, but would the operating costs be significantly higher than those incurred currently?
As much as it grieves me to say it there is two ships which fit the size with lots of accommodation and a huge space to re role in to more. One of them at least will probably never go to sea again I fear.
Sorry not going to happen as need to be cared for with trained crews (even a small one) and the berth at WI can’t take such a Ship of that size. When they said Ships are removed from the fleet they will go the same way as all recent vessels, recycled.
The way things are going with Albion and Bulwark, they just as well use one of them. A tragedy if that’s what one of them got used for but maybe better that than neither of them going back to sea any time soon 🤔
Don’t understand why nobody has mentioned using a merchant ship if some type… Sure it’s not the same thing but with a little imagination……
What is loking? Do you mean looking? Are you supposed to be journalist or what?
Typos exist, big man