The Royal Navy has abandoned plans to conduct tests of a directed energy weapon aboard a Type 23 frigate.
This information surfaced through a written parliamentary question and response, presented below.
John Healey, Shadow Secretary of State for Defence, asked:
“To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, with reference to the DE&S press release entitled ‘DE&S negotiate contracts to put lasers in hands of British Army and Royal Navy’, published on 14 Sept 2021, when his Department plans to undertake the first tests of a directed energy weapon onboard a Type 23 frigate.”
James Cartlidge, Minister of State (Ministry of Defence), responded:
“The Ministry of Defence announced three Directed Energy Weapons Capability Demonstrator contracts in 2021, which were designed to increase knowledge and understanding in the military on how to operate, maintain and integrate Directed Energy Weapons onto complex platforms to inform future capability decisions. These were ambitious projects in both time and scope, and the specific T23 demonstrator contract was concluded early in order to focus resource on the wider Directed Energy Weapons Programme, as outlined in the Integrated Review Refresh 2023. Live firing will be conducted from the Land-based demonstrators in 2024, which will also inform Navy Programmes.”
This contrasts sharply with the initial ambitions revealed a couple of years ago in which the Royal Navy had planned to pioneer the testing of a laser weapon aboard a Type 23 frigate this year. The system was intended to detect, track, engage, and counter unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) as part of a trial process.
However, the recent shift in focus, as indicated in the parliamentary response, suggests a strategic reassessment. The decision to conclude the Type 23 frigate demonstrator project prematurely, reallocating resources to a broader Directed Energy Weapons Programme, reflects a recalibration of priorities within the Ministry of Defence’s approach to integrating and advancing DEW technology within the naval operational context. It doesn’t;t mean they’ve given up, just changed pace.
The land-based side of testing, at least, remains intact. The recent successful test firing of the DragonFire laser directed energy weapon (LDEW) in Scotland was conducted at the MOD’s Hebrides Range and was the first high-power firing of a laser weapon against aerial targets in the UK. Additional forthcoming live firing tests from land-based demonstrators are set to inform future Navy Programmes.
It does not mean we have given up it just means we have changed pace….basically there was no money to do it……
or we have to wait (some considerable time) for there to be a suitable frigate available for long enough to have it fitted and to do the tests The real problem may actually be the power requirements – which T23s actually have the necessary power reserve to run Dragonfire? A maximum of 11 T23 were going to have Power Generation Machinery Upgrade (PGMU) – and apparently that number is now much lower. So, which frigates are currently in the active fleet and physically available for Dragonfire testing? and have they had the lifex/PGMU? that is almost certainly what has forced… Read more »
They’ve had more than time enough to get issues like power addressed but the project doesn’t seem to have had the level of importance, cable guard ships with questionable job descriptions.i.e if it. Finds tampering going on what will it do? Make a phone call? Motherships. When vessels given necessary alterations could used echo and the enterprise were ideal candidates to d the mothership game.
The system is undergoing testing against representative real world targets. We don’t know how those tests have faired which means we don’t know the rationale for rethinking the plan. Power generation is not likely to be an issue for testing because the power draw is not substantial: ca. 50 kW firing for a few seconds. That means maybe 100 kW when the inefficiency of the laser is accounted for, which you could run by e.g discharging a capacitor bank weighing a few kg.
That assumes it was an indirect draw?
I agree a capacitor bank and a dedicated power pack would be the answer.
Personally I’d have been testing that sort of thing on Albion as it has Artisan and a full CMS. As well as loads of space.
It is an indirect draw. There’s some ongoing work to develop a flywheel-based energy storage device in preference to a capacitor bank, but I don’t know how far along it is. If you needed to draw that kind of power continuously then it would imply that you wanted to operate the laser continuously, at which point the heat dissipation problem becomes a lot harder.
Flywheels were used at JET for precisely that reason.
I agree the recycle time will thermally limited.
Exactly so.
It might be that the RN tests move to T45 or QEC which do have the required power levels?
That said if the DE weapon isn’t powerful enough there isn’t a lot of point wasting insertion periods on it?
HMS Richmond completed, HMS St. Albans PGMU in process. Presume there will be others.
T23 has had 2 x 9 ton trackers removed from fwd and aft and replaced by a couple of fridge sized cabinets and small data link domes. There is more than enough power available for an installation. It would need some rewiring and alterations to the vessels structure . Above deck Dragonfire is well reported, Whats below decks isn’t. I would suspect its a cooling unit, stored energy system and electronics. Hopefully it would fit within the confines of the legacy Sea Wolf Tracker office and can use the 440V, 115V and cooling system pipework left over from the old… Read more »
Given we are in a war already then putting some generators on a ship can’t be that difficult, certainly not when you can allow the crew to choose the paint scheme
They blew it on other stupid projects
That was similar to the line they gave on cancelling Mosquito (your version is shorter and written in English). LANCA isn’t dead, it’s resting. We’ve learned lessons and we know a better/faster/cheaper alternative. Except it appears the RCO had a chat with industry looking for alternatives, didn’t find any, and promptly dropped the whole thing. I expect team Hersa to do the same here with ship-based lasers.
At least in this case there is an alternative in Dragonfire.
Could mean a number of things
1. It didn’t work, and so project abandoned
2. Money redirected / never existed
3. Not enough frigates
4. Better project came up
5. Value for money wasn’t adding up
6. Was all political spin and dreams rather than an actual plan
Etc etc
My money is on 1.
There is plenty of money, they are pouring millions into making sure people who identify as martian trees are fully integrated on the home office and aren’t discriminated against by the nhs
Nailed it.
Inclusion Manager EDV/2024/MCA/86002 Are you looking for a fantastic new opportunity? Mildenhall College Academy is looking to appoint an Inclusion Manager. Mildenhall, Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, IP28 7HT Term Time Only | Part-Time £24,649.00 – £26,987.00 Annually (Actual) 25k for ONE school to employ someone to manage what exactly? My son was bullied throughout his school career for having ginger hair (from me), It is genetic, it is actually race related, but, because it isnt skin colour or ethnic preference the school didnt need to report it, in fact they didnt even deal with it. Now we are spending more… Read more »
Something better potentially on offer from an ally?
Probably haven’t got a spare 23 to use for experiments!
Highly likely. Its not just a Type 23 you need. I suspect (though may be wrong) you need one that’s had the full PGMU!
Yeh, I bet that made the decision easier for the RN to go along with…
Nevertheless, there will need to be trials on board a ship and I would prefer to see more comment on at least an outline plan for accomplishing this. The fact that there isn’t suggests an open ended delay…
Cheers CR
Surprised we might have one seaworthy enough to do it.
Think I will go along with that one Jacko .There again two Type 23s just been retired could not one of these be provide for testing ,if not capable of the high seas no more with a limited crew ? 🤔
The US navy has the HELIOS laser deployed on at least 6 arleigh burkes which are made to take out drones and small craft, im curious if any of those are deployed in the red sea. In the age of drones this is a must have capability on every ship… I shudder to think what would happen if the houthis launched a massive salvo at a destroyer and simply due to running out of missiles one gets through… Its simply impossible and uneconomical to produce enough expensive missiles to keep swatting these these things. The US seems to be way… Read more »
If a warship is damaged by a drone because they have used all their missiles then maybe the powers that be will speed up the pace, to late as usual.
This is pretty dismal news. Events and Ukraine and in the Red Sea have shown there is a pressing, perhaps even urgent need to get a directed laser weapon into service. We cannot be spending £2 million on Aster missiles to shoot down cheap and easy to produce drones. Being able to field a weapon that can destroy $20k drones for $10 would flip the economics of what is going on in the Red Sea and give us even more of an upper hand against the Houthis and other potential proxies. RN escorts would be able to stay on station… Read more »
I’m not sure it’s a solution to the Red Sea problem, the lasers are relatively short range and designed for close range defence, I don’t think they’d be suitable for intercepting missiles attacking ships many miles away.
“cost endless billions of dollars.” – The entire Dragonfire project, including all the R&D was £100 million. Lasers aren’t expensive. “that still look like an Ms paint edit” – You do realise that is an image created by the author of the article right?
The reason it looks like an MS paint edit is that it probably is, to be honest. Surprised people like that find these sites.
One of the main reasons people die from poverty and homelessness is because democratic nations are unable to stand up to dictators who care nothing for their people.
The Armed forces would be transformed if one month of the NHS’ budget were given to them in a lump sum.
Some people will never be convinced that defence is necessary that money spent on it would solve all our other problems simply because that is what they want to think, not that there is any evidence to back it up or any knowledge of how little is spent compared to trying to solve poverty, housing et al. These are the same people who think Russia is like a caged bear surrounded and so hitting out when even a quick glance at a map shows it’s the biggest Country in the World due to expansionist regimes has the Arctic (half of… Read more »
Sailor Boy wrote: “”The Armed forces would be transformed if one month of the NHS’ budget were given to them in a lump sum.”” London is around 47% white, meaning that a vast majority are fairly recent imports. and here is a news headline from 2013: London’s £36bn benefits bill is bigger than the UK’s whole defence budget London’s benefits bill has soared to more than the British defence budget, a new report warned today. The study by the Centre for Social Justice highlighted that £36 billion went on working-age welfare payments in 2011/12 in the capital, compared with defence spending… Read more »
Agree totally
I wonder why it has to be a frigate for the test.
Well the availability of the 45’s isn’t great either and they have their own issues.
And we don’t have enough of them either.
Gosport Ferry Andy
Red Funnel, Isle of Wight?
So long as its not rough and it’s not Cowes week
We don’t have enough ships period, not by at least two orders of magnitude. As for crew, if you were 20 and someone said join the navy you would expect redundancy by 22 or being shit out of the water when the rules of engagement didn’t allow you to fire back without being prosecuted. Would you join? Time to reverse the cuts, stop the prosecutions of all military personnel and realise that at 60 i am capable of fixing a navy engine and don’t need to be 20 and able to run up and down Gibraltar in my lunch hour
lol, yes, well, I understand running to the top is quite a challenge. Yes, when the royal navy is down to two carriers we cant afford to equip with planes or send out of harbour and a wooden ship in dry dock then I guess we dont visit Gib very often
Does it need to be a warship? Could they contract a vessel or use a RFA?
They could contract a vessel- I was thinking maybe a Dutch or Danish frigate to do our weapons tests or maybe French or Spanish or German.
Good idea , but aren’t the Freedom Class Left hand drive 🤣
6 of them would be £150 million, just saying!
Carrier’s going in for refit before the end of the year. Lots of power. In need of some short-range defences.
Test-bed first like when Seawolf was first trialed out on a Leander Hms Penelope before the 22 class .A 23 would have been ideal for trials at sea rather than whack them on a new vessel and trials don’t forefill great test results ,
True. That could be done this year on Patrick Blackett and installed on QE as well. “Failure” shouldn’t be a dirty word. It definitely won’t work if we don’t try it.
The Patrick Blackett could as a test bed remaining static for firing which looks good for data analysis but I doubt if it could conduct tests in an environment akin too real world defensive scenarios .I’m not putting P B down what I am putting across is a 23 at speed altering course acquiring a target and firing real world input for Data analysis rather than flat calm ,ship stationary target aquired data collection
i don’t understand. What’s inherently static about PB? It can reach >20kn and has a range of over 3000 Nm. Not frigate class, but certainly enough to to get out of the harbour on a windy day.
I just can’t see th p b having all the kit for dragon fly being embedded on a new Hull for that when there’s old hulls such as the 23s which can be cut and chopped conduct the trials after trialing the 23 chosen would undoubtedly be on the disposal list
A ship designed to demonstrate new technology ought to have decent power generation and stabilisation. The design is for maintaining wind farms, which needs excellent sea keeping.
So I should see the PB around rampian 1 wind farm if I get my Binos out on a clear day seastate 1 and Bognor beach is free of shitehawks Hee hee 😜
Why bother cutting hulls around at all stick in containers and you can test it on any hull with enough deck space or deploy ashore for other testing.
Fair comment Expat so if containerized it would sit on the flight deck ? If so setting out a polar chart area’s of firing arcs and blind arcs would be hampered unless the flightdeck is going to be the ultimate mounting position for Dragon Fire
We’re taking about trials so optimum position is not required. But ultimately any system that needs a sight line will be mounted in a compromise position
They may jump straight to putting them on Type 26/31 though wouldnt be surprised if there was a plan to rapid install the prototypes on the QE’s if a conflict broke out.
A very interesting video on YT by Sandbox:
The TRUTH about the UK’s new DRAGONFIRE Laser
A video which directly contradicts articles here, numerous MOD press releases, and written answers to parliamentary questions, including the fact tat it passed a successful weapons test and downed a drone in trials. The video has to be taken with a pinch of salt. There is a large element of “Not Invented Here” in that video, and a large dose of him not liking Uncle Sam being upstaged. After all, they have managed to upscale the laser from 30kW to 300kW and are aiming for 500kW – but they still haven’t delivered a genuine, working, weapon system of any power.… Read more »
Saw that video. It didn’t spend much time on Dragonfire.
Indeed it was a generalised look at laser weapons and their potential using DF as a useful clickbait as it’s in the news.
Yes saw that and it’s a ridiculous clickbate video (like so many on YT for obvious reasons) that builds up expectations (based on Daily Mail like super weapon myths) so that it can be shot down in their patronising way. It’s a test platform that has started out considerably more powerful than US test beds did (though that was a decade back admittedly but they can afford to commit earlier as with almost any new technology). Already been stated that Dragonfire is scaleable. Can’t remember if it was that vid or another where ironically but quite logically stated in contradiction… Read more »
Looks like the US and Israel have moved on to more powerful systems, if he is right then we need to upgrade the system 150Kw.
Laser weapons are the weapons of the future. This is where the bulk of the money reserved for development should go. Once operational it is deadly, accurate, cheap to install and certainly cheap to run . Hardly any manpower required. One or two per ship is all that is required. This is the weapon to put against hypersonic missiles.
Defence analysis has put the effective range of current lasers at 1 mile when you consider variables.
Yes. When people talk about needing to deploy lasers ASAP to avoid using very expensive missiles against much cheaper drones what they seem to me to be overlooking is that if a drone is in range of the laser systems currently under development then it would also be very comfortably within the range of a 40mm presumably using 3P/airburst ammo so the cost saving isn’t really laser vs missile, it’s laser vs 40mm airburst rounds snd that technology exists in production form right now.
Yes. A 40mm airburst is way more effective against a drone or a small fast craft. I forgot about that 35mm is an option with the Oerlikon Skyguard 3 Air Defence System. Depending on the material a laser still takes longer to melt through the skin.
Reluctantly I agree, having seen the new radar controlled gun systems effectiveness against multiple drones and indeed even drone based anti drone systems that are far cheaper than using missiles and with the added option of just investigating not committed to a kill once launched or can survive a kill, so they are not wasted, they seem to be the immediate priority even as laser systems should be developed and tested longer term.
I thought 10 miles but either way doesn’t look hopeful against supersonic let alone hypersonic missiles, though the latter generally if it’s anti ship anyway, has to slow to supersonic or slower speeds to effectively use its terminal guidance. Short term I suspect anti drone is going to be its main use, over time who knows, Ai and Robotics have seemed to have progressed 50 years in the last 10 and few would have seen that advancement so quickly.
I also read that ,1 mile effective range then the target has too be continuously hit for any effect not like it being hit by any calibre weapon over 20mm HEI HEIT which detonates on contact or proximity fuses rds .so 1 mile doesn’t give you much time systems would have to be stood too continually regardless of threat
…and always will be?
It basically means we haven’t got a my spare frigates because we,ve just retired 2 and the new ones are years away
And Russia/ China are watching very closely – just waiting for the ideal opportunity …
Rocking horse politicians never learn by their mistakes – 80plus years ago, to the present day.
Will the land based test bed move chaotically, like what a ship does?
Do you have to be a school dropout to wrangle a job at the MOD. Every UK defense article I read is this has been cut back, that has been delayed or whatevers been cancelled. Maybe we should just disband the armed forces and spend the money buying gifts for Putin and Xi.
Seems to me you just have to be an idiot. Especially at the top of the food chain. AND have a total disregard for tax payers money.
Our armed forces are now a joke this government has time and time again reduces our forces ,reduces planned equipment procurement and cancels orders like the fares with two aircraft carriers without enough planes
or a supply ship . What next charge the tax payer £10.000000 for a bat to send our troops to a coming war or give gliders to the RAF and bath tubs to the navy what a joke this country cannot even stop immigrants never mind keep our armed forces supplied properly.
I’m fed up with excuses from the government. We need to do so much more too protect this country. Stop spending money on woke and spend it on defending us . We are so low that we have 2 new aircraft carriers stuck in Portsmouth because we do not have the ships to protect them. Just get on with what needs doing . Complete joke .
We, once again will end up being left behind. We will then buy American kit for commonality UOR. We will find the US kit isn’t as good as they said it was, but have no contractual protection. So, we will go back to Dragonfire to find that elements of the system have been bought by US defense interests and are now covered by ITAR …. Situation normal
“It doesn’t mean they’ve given up, just changed pace.” We have run out of money and must keep instep with a low budget constraint.
I didn’t realise that some also put similar answer.
Ship born/ground based lasers= waist of money. We have had the ability to destroy things with Lasers for a very very long time. The most powerful/expense Laser in the world is pretty much useless if it is raining or foggy or there is a sand storm. And in the best of weather if the target has the right coating! it wouldn’t do any damage anyway. BUT in space.
Yep our ship had an Argon Laser fitted during OP Corporate 1982 not very good when cloudy it was a Dazzler not a Burner .I do believe that blinding an adversary is against the UN/ Geneva convention passed in the Nineties
How much was the naval side of the programme to “inform decisions”?
Hopefully not another few hundred million now lost for any real benefit to the military but in fat cat industries pocket.
£72.5 million for three programmes. My guess is that Project Tracey, the one that got scrapped, sorry, prematurely ended having learned ever so much, will have had the biggest budget of the three. Say ~£30m. I doubt it was all spent.
Thanks. Chicken feed in defence money but all adds up.
Did anyone seriously expect this to lead to anything productive? The money has gone to its intended recipient which was the sole aim of the project.
Ok- say directed energy weapons aren’t going to work as we either: 1) don’t have the funds available (likely) or 2) the technology isn’t mature enough yet or 3) perhaps the power production requirements for the system cannot be met by a frigate. Whatever the cause of this climbdown or is it another Tory rowing back? we should just go back to tried and tested guns- cheap and effective and in terms of a Bofors 40mm mount or the BAE 57mm mount capable of being fitted onto the type 23, 26, 45 and potentially additional mounts onto the type 31.… Read more »
So the anti British civil service continue the work of making the UK defenceless ready for their Kremlin master to invade. Urgent that we have such weapons to deal with the swarms of cheap drones we are facing. The act dismissed torpedo’s and submarines .. didn’t end well
It’s got the same ‘sparkling’ MOD whiff to it that Thypoons grindingly slow Radar 2 integration has, i.e potentially extremely capable tech, rolled out as slow as a molasses spill at huge expense, it will likely never be fielded and the technology overtaken.
Dont forget dear boy ( I know you don’t 😉 ) what the priority is with the MoD budget to politicians eyes.
It isn’t the military.
😂😂😂 too true, can’t we line up parliament, get them to bend over and fire up the Dragon fire, might as well get some bloody use out of it….
Consequence of getting rid of Argyll and Westminster early, I guess.
The RN is really down to the bones in its rse.
Best place to test this is on a type 45 shooting down drones!