In response to a report into naval shipbuilding in Scotland, the Government have again stated that they intend for the Royal Navy to get more warships.
While the aspiration to increase the number of frigates and destroyers in the fleet to 24 has been known for a couple of years now, this marks the latest confirmation that it’s still being planned.
This is the Government’s response to the Scottish Affair Committee’s Fourth Report of Session 2022–23 titled ‘Defence in Scotland: military shipbuilding’, you can read the report here.
“It is absolutely the intention of the Royal Navy to have more frigates and destroyers. The T32 programme is currently in concept phase, after which the procurement strategy will be decided. In addition to this, you will be aware of the Type 31 (T31) Frigates under construction at Rosyth. This contract was awarded to Babcock after a genuinely competitive process, which will see all five ships delivered by the end of 2028 at an average production cost of £250 million each.
The suspension of the National Flagship has not created a gap in the pipeline. The decision was made to stop the programme in order to bring forward the Multi Role Ocean Surveillance (MROS) ships. Evolving threats demand that the MOD bring forward MROS ships that are critical to our underwater capabilities, including ensuring we have a capability to protect our undersea cables. It is right that Defence puts its focus on delivering capabilities which safeguard our national infrastructure.”
When is this likely to happen?
According to the excellent NavyLookout, sources within the Royal Navy say they aspire to have an escort fleet of 24 ships by “the early 2030s”, you can read more from them on this by clicking here.
More platforms by the 2030s, excellent, except, time continues and we need them and their crews by… well, about NOW!
This disgrace of a Con Govt has not decimated our armed forces, it has overseen an evisceration of our Armed Forces all the while lying to Parliament.
Labour need to go for an absolutely no votes winner and pledge defence at 2.5% excluding inflation; yes, I know pigs will fly over Morecambe Bay first.
You never know, they may. Supporting industry would put them in good stead with their union donors
The TUC used to be so heavily infiltrated by the various Warsaw Pact intelligence services. That the needs of British industry were irrelevant. Is there reason to suspect that the current influence of the CCP is any less disruptive.
Those with an interest in the historical spread of marxism/communism within Great Britain. May find the following resource helpful. Be warned, it is best to sit down and strap-in for this journey down the rabbit hole.
https://www.marxist.com/communists-trade-unions-and-the-anglo-russian-committee.htm
Sadly even organisations like CND were funded and infiltrated by by the Soviet Union…people forget that the Russian communist party was infact hyper aggressive with an avowed aim of making the world communist by any and all means ( led by the Soviet Union as first amongst so called equals).
That is all very true Jonathan. The extent of marxist infiltration into the free world Great Britain in particular, is quite shocking. We are currently reaping the tainted crop of seeds continually sown for a century. The aims are exactly the same, regardless the flavour of marxism one encounters.
My Grandfather used to rant and rave about this, in particular that Arthur Scargill was being influenced by the Russians. As a kid I thought he was just making up anti-union stories, they were a collective that he and his family, being small business owners, had never liked. I had no idea at the time there was genuine exchange of ideas and frequent travel to Russia in the trade union movement.
This narrative is very one sided. I’ll start mildly – Radio Free Europe We can move on to the Peace Corps And who will forget the British Council. So, yes, there was funding and propaganda on both sides – Oberons were operating in the Baltic Sea, why? How did the Latvian and Lithuanian Forest Brothers sustain themselves into the 60s – strange that. You’re becoming a stuck record. I became the Branch Secretary for Ofsted in the early 90s – I negotiated pay rises, I got PAs moved to EOs when the PA grade was abolished, I got extended maternity… Read more »
Someone else who can’t sleep. I understand it’s old news Barry but people do forget. I too was a union rep. for all the right reasons. The younger generations spoon fed socialism at school, go into Trade Unionism as naive kids. Unaware of the guile and subversiveness built into the organisation from the very start. Thankfully in Britain, there were (? still are) plenty of observant right minded union members, willing to report “problems” to the correct authorities. It is incumbent on the older more experienced of us, to ensure the lessons from the past are kept current for the… Read more »
Nowdays Russia & China infiltrate, seduce & subvert business & government with lots of dodgy money.
You just have to go to Communist Unions industrial sabotage against UK in WW2.
It only changed after Hitler attacked Soviet Union.
Are you seriously dragging up rumours from over 4 decades ago? These groups don’t even exist anymore. Most of the original members of the Warsaw pact are western nato members. Get a grip of yourself.
I am, yes. Because the Marxist Trotskyist movement did not end with the demise of the USSR and Warsaw Pact. If anything it is now far worse because the extremists are home grown and have evolved with lucrative global ties. ANTIFA and BLM having high profiles. Do not reply until you have investigated the International Communist League (fourth Internationalist) and their affiliations with various like minded Trotskyist groups. The stated violent revolutionary aims and objectives are of particular interest to those of us who defend western democracy. As are the mainstream organisations they have infiltrated. The old adage of follow… Read more »
And that is why we got the Gordon Brown Class Carriers that have insufficient planes or fleet protection – all for Scottish shipbuilding jobs and labour votes which the SNP took anyway What a farce. UK cannot afford to fly the flag (and forever stay away from Chinese claimed waters or half the fleet and aircraft will become artificial fish reefs). UK can barely afford to be a European theatre navy. Empire has long gone and creating bad feelings in former colonial countries. Protecting Blighty and NATO should be the main goal.
The issue before was the Brownian motion of money away from defence investment. So when Osbourne and Cameron arrived the new kit cupboard was looking very, very empty. This won’t be a popular comment on here but none of the services had smelt the coffee at that point in time: SDSR 2010. RN was probably the first onboard with cutting sunset capabilities to create budget headroom to buy new kit. Then RAF. Army has been very poor at moving ahead of the curve on this and OK they were fighting a real war with RM in sandy places so their… Read more »
Interesting. What sunset capabilities did RN choose to drop (politicians forced them to cut Harriers and Invincible-class carriers) and what sunset capabilities could the army have dropped?
The Army was not totally living in the past or clinging onto their old shape – much work on re-shaping future structures was done – and moving the army back from Germany and squeezing them into barely adequate UK bases which was a far from a trivial task, whilst doing those two sandy wars, simultaneously for many years.
Crumbs. This needs a considered reply, thanks for posting.
The only way we are getting more is by keeping the T31 production line hot and building 10. If we mess around with T32 we will end up getting nothing because it will end up as a £1 billion frigate being built by BAE.
I agree, it’s a good hull with lots of expansion room, keep it with a defensive kit for lots of space for autonomous systems, add in MK41 launchers for a vessel focused on surface strike or upgrade its AAW capabilities to add a bit of mass to the AAW escort fleet ( not every AAW escort needs to be the very best in the world). It may be an idea to also keep the Type 26 line running until the type 83 is designed and ready to order. We don’t really want to see the large pauses in construction that… Read more »
I’m not going to be popular but fitting out an (T31) additional frigate hull as a National Flagship seems like a good idea to keep production runs economic.
or just building a new one from scratch…maybe in one of the dockyards that aren’t in Scotland …I mean who would complain about that….its a wonder no-one has suggested it.
Who mentioned Leanders? They weren’t great ASW platforms, however, their towed array changed – and T31 needs some sonar to add to the plot – how to automate that feed into a central platform with analysts on-board coming back with options – floating AWACS – isn’t something anyone has mentioned.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the T31 hull, just with the T31. Do not build more T31! Build T32. Even if T32 is still based on the A140. Do it properly. This does not necessarily mean a full IH load out or Poland A140 (be nice though). NGFS capable main gun, 32 CAMM, 32 CAMM-ER, 8 NSM, hull mounted sonar, look at rafting the machinery. Upgrade to at least NS200 radar. Fit FC radars (or NS50 as a dual purpose). Fit some LWT torpedoes. I’d even settle for more T23 GP over T31 as it now stands. If all… Read more »
Well the T31 can have whatever Load out you want to put on it, there is nothing wrong with that, even call it a T32, what we don’t necessarily want is a completely new ship design as the T31 as designed can have a huge variety of weapons fitted. As for just defend, well if your building a pure escort or patrol frigate that’s actually what they are for so you can just go for a defensive fit..if you want a GP warship you do need some surface strike capability…but it’s very clear the the RN are sticking 8 NSMs… Read more »
I’m in violent agreement with you!
Now would be good. Yesterday would have been better!
Just as important is a package of perks/incentives to boost both recruiting and retention figures. The aim being, to establish a waiting list of eager willing potentials for all branches of the Armed Services. A defence budget of 5% guaranteed.as an absolute minimum 7.5% in addition to the bulk of the overseas aid budget would be preferable. At least until the armed forces have been doubled across the board.
And what part of the economy and public spending would you like to see underfunded to pay for that?
We can just get rid of the NHS and have a 7.5% defence budget, works fine in the USA 😀
Not sure what we will be doing with a standing army of half a million, maybe invade France or Ireland again 😀
It’s interesting and most people don’t know this the US government actually pay more per head per population on healthcare than the UK does for the NHS. Basically the US government safety net healthcare covers a percentage of its population…not the birth to death 100% cover the NHS gives. so Medicaid and Medicare ( the state funded healthcare for the poor, old, children and veterans etc) cost 1.6 trillion dollars or around 38% of healthcare expenses….then around 0.5 trillion dollars on public health expenses ( again mainly government)..or 14%..which gives you 52% of US healthcare spending by the US government… Read more »
Yeah Medicare alone cost the same % of GDP as the NHS, America gets really screwed on health care.
As a Brit living in the US Medicare – for the old – has huge gaps and while is “ok- but only just”- the money spend on cold
Calls by licensed sales men is obscene! And most here just would not pay a tax to have an enormous pile of cash to help everyone! It is just not in their DNA.
US spends more on healthcare as a % than the UK does on the NHS. FIgure that one out…all the while we worker bees pay hundreds of dollars a month to be insured just so we can get a discount when we get sick. The US doesn’t have to pay a lot for education though (and it shows) and most uni’s are private so another big saving there. Also, IDK if you’ve been to the US but tbh the UK appears like a much more prosperous country. I am here right now, trains looks stunning and are working, tube train… Read more »
Havn`t seen a pothole ??????
Where are you ?
SE London over near kent border. I love this city tbh, london is amazing. It’s so clean and the transport network has been first class. I really can’t fault it. I know u lot love a good moan but compared to Chicago or NYC this place is a cut above. True though the NHS is a pile of sh**, my sister is an NHS nurse and tells me she has to travel to peoples houses to do finger prick diabetes tests cos the patients won’t do it themselves…. usually lazy and obese on benefits she says…. that seems to be… Read more »
We do love a good moan, I live in the South West on the Cornwall/Devon border and we
ve got potholes you can lose a bus in, and loads of them.re right about the NHS though, it can waste money like you wouldn`t believe, as can the MOD.You
Yeah the NHS sadly is a disaster. My aunt who has MND has had very good care from them though TBH. THe american model is “good” but very expensive. I feel like the NHS has to go to some sort of hybrid model. At the end of the day, everyone appreciates things more when they have some skin in the game. I was blown away when I read the NHS are going to pay pregnant women 600GBP so stop smoking. WTF, if having a baby isn’t enough of an incentive then WTF would be.
The UK is the worst for potholes but interestingly a major reason for it is choice of utilities. Gas piped in almost every home is not normal in most countries and multiple telecommunications providers and fast broadband in major cities is also not normal. All this and the massive changes the UK is making ahead of other countries like national grid upgrades for electric cars, plastic gas pipes that are Hydrogen ready and super fast broad band come at the cost of streets being dug up regularly. That combined with chronic underfunding of local governments leaves our streets some of… Read more »
Not going to argue with that.
I read years ago that the Japanese have hit squads of pot hole repairers – they respond very quickly and use quick setting materials, possibly a fast-set concrete?
Yes, according to official statistics the US has the same per capita GDP as Switzerland. If you go to Switzerland you can literally smell the money on every street. If I go to the upper east side of Manhattan or Beverley hills which I have down in the past year it looks like a **** hole. I have no idea where this money is in America and the people seem to have a standard of living and consumption pretty much in line with the European average. I can only surmise that US GDP figures are grossly inflated much like Irelands… Read more »
Privatisation of theNHS!
Then you end up with the US. Spend more money & get less.
Strange how the economy and public spending, can find the funds to supply Ukrainians with weapons and cash. Prior to that, lockdown our country for 2 years during a pandemic and write open cheques for vaccine producers. But somehow investing in national defence with all the money being ploughed back into the economy, is too expensive.
Apparently according to leaked US documents. Money given to the corrupt Ukrainians is being skimmed off by corrupt politicians and military.
It’s a simple answer. If we don’t help Ukraine. Russia wins. Then who next will they invade? Estonia maybe. And also signals that the West is weak and won’t do bugger all. So. It’s money very well spent. And in the grand scheme of government spending, it isn’t much at all.
Estonia and the other 31 members of NATO are protected by the alliance and article five. Russia would never invade any member state because the results would be catastrophic. The deterrent worked right through the Cold War, when the Warsaw Pact was considerably stronger than Russia is today. I still think the manor in which we are helping Ukraine is misguided. Given that both it and Russia are recovering soviet founding nations, with little or nothing to distinguish between them. Corrupt oligarchies both. You must be aware of the leaked documents supporting the claims of current corruption. From the president… Read more »
I think the world is a far more dangerous place if we let Russia try and invade a free democratic nation on our door step. Russia’s actions are completely indefensible. Now I’m sure corruption has been rife in the Ukraine, but that doesn’t mean that we should idly stand by and let a young democracy and its millions of innocent citizens suffer at the hands of a bully like Putin. If we had done nothing then the balance of global power would well and truly be in the hands of China and given them a massive greenlight to do what… Read more »
I appreciate your stance on this but disagree Ukraine is a democracy, as we understand the term in Britain. It is still an oligarchy with institutionalised corruption on a scale far in excess of what we consider acceptable. Also, the country is on Russia’s doorstep rather than ours. It’s location with fellow founding soviet states on two sides being of primary importance in all of this. Moscow is just 4 hours drive from the Ukrainian border. Ukrainian politics is also problematic and very different from our experience. It is complex and exists at the confluence of a dozen ideologies and… Read more »
The word from the Latvian Ministry of Transport (I taught them) was that Ukraine WAS very corrupt and trying to implement EU reforms was difficult. Caveat. This is from a Ministry that is implementing Railbaltic where when the Trace of a route is 25 – 30 metres, the Balts were taking 50; now, the interesting point. Wage costs are far lower in the Balts Land costs are far lower in the Balts SOME construction costs are far lower in the Balts. And yet, they landed the scheme costs per kilometre built trace, just under the European norms – project approved… Read more »
Morning David. As I said to George. I’m under no illusion corruption was rife in the Ukraine before the conflict, especially with easy to abuse EU rules. But, I can’t agree that’s an excuse to let them suffer at the hands of Putin, and the West leaves them to it. A much bigger global power struggle is at play. And, our response has been the correct response. It’s just a crying shame it’s come to this.
What’s your take on sending modern jets to Ukraine?
I’m confused as to how modern F16 can be sent to back fill the Mig 29s being sent to Ukraine from Central European countries and yet can not be sent to Ukraine – who technically will be as competent as their Central European peers?
As to your point re the conflict, we should give them all the help we can.
I think F16’s would be the best option for Ukraine. But MIG29’s are a good technical and political choice. They already have the engineering support and experience in place to operate MIG29’s, plus the ground support equipment, pilot training, technician training the lot. Plus their is no risk of Western tech falling into the hands of the Russians if an F16 gets shot down.
The main issue I believe is the plethora of air to ground weapons the F16 can carry, depending on the variant. Quite a few of these would be longish range. Which means there’s a likelihood Ukraine would use them against targets in Russia. The US are trying to make a balance where they are giving Ukraine the weapons to not only defend themselves. But also to go on the offensive, albeit limited. Due to the type of weapons being delivered. The reason for this is to try to prevent Russia from using these offensive weapons, as an excuse to go… Read more »
Thanks for a very detailed reply.
I’d suggest that Russia has shown admirable restraint in its use of Western weapons, however, did anyone tell the RAF they couldn’t bomb Germany in WW2 because the aggressor wouldn’t like it?
Send them Canberra’s with standoff weaponry. That should do the trick.
Well said. Russia should face the fact they have lost Ukraine. Its been 100 years coming after the small farmers were trashed by Lenin when millions died. The Tartars were driven from Crimea in a genocide.
Russia itself is hopelessly corrupt and all opposition to the Putinist Government is at risk of death or imprisonment.
One can only hope for change there as probably 1/3 of the population wants a decent democratic country.
That’s nonsense, another Russian troll.
ignore him Jim, he isn’t worthy of a response.
Jim not sure he is a troll as on many occasion he does have and raise genuine points and concerns! George does seem to be pro defence oriented but very keen to be negative in regard to NATO and its aspirations and capabilities, which in that regard I will disagree with him 👍
Agreed 👍
Don’t be silly, I’m neither Russian or a troll. I See things differently to most on here. Ukraine is not a cause I would have chosen to support. Perhaps my opinions on the subject are Cold War and Ukraine’s soviet past. But they are what they are.
The enemy of my enemy is not always a friend.
All those points make you sound like either a troll sitting in st Petersburg farm working for the FSB or Jeremy Corbyn. Beyond that I not aware of anyone else in the UK expressing the same view as you. Obviously these threads are inundated with Russian Trolls running counter espionage work pushing kremlin propaganda so I lean to the former explanation. Perhaps your neither but it’s a tough sell to convince me when your literally pouring out the same propaganda that genocidal murdering rapists are using to justify the biggest invasion in Europe since World War II. Perhaps you should… Read more »
What leaked US documents are you referring to? I wasn’t aware there was anything about money being skimmed by corrupt politicians and military in this latest crop of documents
Just received notification of this reply. Yes, there are many documents released. Including internal CIA coms regarding a complete list of corrupt Ukrainian generals and politicians, who have been skimming cash from international military aid. Including Zelensky. One figure of 400 million is mentioned regarding the members of the Kiev military. Confirmed by communications between Ukrainian soldiers and their relatives at home complaining about it. This information was intentionally withheld from the the American public. I do not know if the British government are aware of this but considering the closeness of the five eyes. I would be horrified if… Read more »
George I have to say I’m quite content to have a certain amount of public funds to be “found” and allocated to Ukraine for weapons etc! As it’s money well spent, due to the fact western weapons and western money are being use to degrade the enemy we have been spending billions on for decades! If a Chally, or a Leopard, or a Jav is being used to kill and destroy/degrade the disgusting Russian Nazis, then I don’t care who is pulling the trigger! As for corruption, damn yes of course it’s happening, it’s a newly “democratic” nation, a certain… Read more »
MPs their expenses, second home allowances even the number what is it now 625. Not to mention the pensions they receive after as little as 1 terms service!
I would like to see that, I’m only 15 minutes away. When are they taking off?
Probably some Tiffies and Hawks right about now 🙂
Pigs are being spit roasted as are our Armed Forces. Mr Blay makes some interesting points.
I can see The Bay as I type this.
I’ll keep a look out!
Are they planning to reactivate RAF Cark for this miracle?
I think they mentioned Walney or Millom 😉
Try looking at both Parties defence cuts around the Navy…blame it purely on the Tories if you wish but your credibility is zero if you do.
What are you wibbling about, indeed, why should I give foxtrot alpha about what you think of my credibility?
I dont wibble. As for you caring about my opinionsneither do I yours..as clearly the ones you express on here just make a fool of you. Cheers
Please, how many posts have you made on this website?
I think that some useful clarity comes from looking at our defence spending as a share of GDP David S. 2.5% when Blair took office in 1997, 2.5% when Brown left office in 2010. That despite the 2007 global financial crash. Conservatives have slashed it by 20% on the surface, but in reality closer to 30%, by shifing the nuclear programme and pensions from the Treasury and DWP to the defence budget. I doubt if we are actually spending 1.8% on defence once you take out nuclear programme and pensions. Ditto service numbers. When Brown left office, the army establishment… Read more »
Need them? For what we aren’t at war as is our Navy is doing just fine at what it needs to do so idk why you act like it’s needed now
We don’t have the personnel to properly man what we’ve got…
But aren’t new vessels expected to have smaller compliments due to technology/automation?
One hopes, not to mention the slew of older hulls getting pensioned off. Tho have to wonder how effective damage control/fire fighting will be with reduced numbers.
Just get the robots to do it 🙄
lol, lmao
Just figured out what “lmao” means ….😂
I think they can adopt some of the fire suppression techniques used in data centres to keep costs down.
warships are ideal for this with their air tight compartments.
The problem is that those sort of fire suppression Systems require the infrastructure to be intact…if you blow up a data centre with a missile it’s fire suppression will not work…if you look at a lot of out of control fires after warships are damaged its because the fire main gets destroyed and is OS. You need to have distributed fire suppression and for that you need lots of Johnny on the spots.
Understood, but my point is that some of this can be taken over by technology.
it’s a balancing act.
Exactly.
Most accom spaces on ships have dry riser sprays fitted. it means you dont need to be in full fire fighter rig( BA, Gold Suit, Boots, hood, helmet gloves, 3 man team with TI and 2 hoses) to fight the fire. Plug in a hose and open the valve. Its a lot easier. You can then re-enter in a more relaxed manner with a hose not turned on which is a lot easier. Post damage you do need bods on the ground. A T23 managed before all the extra accom up ticks where added for augmentee posts. The most important… Read more »
Self sealing ships……
Yep, lean manning only works in peacetime. In combat you need plenty of crew to fix damage etc. Not least, if damage K.O.s the power supply, you’re back to sailor power.
There is also the potential of crew loss. If you are running at minimum how many can you afford to loose? Whatever caused the damage is likely to have damaged more than the ship.
Yes it’s the other end of the procurement death spiral, ships are more complicated and cost more to procure but manning cost drop.
Yes, but more hulls need more people in total.
Unmanned is increasingly an option especially sub surface.
To escort carriers? Really?
Well, if you look back at the last deployment of the CSG, it was defence(diplomatic/trade) engagement.
One thing for you Graham – check out Task and Purpose on YouTube and the Polish AIFV – Rolls Royce and Perkings have a +1000 sets a piece from that order with more to follow. That’s some serious income for UK PLC.
(When was the last time a major naval platform visited Poland for “Defence Engagement” Hmm!).
CSG21 was as much a Freedom of Navigation mission and integration with USMC as a diplomatic/trade event. HMS QE sailed with a full complement of escorts albeit one was US (The Sullivans) and one was NZ – and a fair number of F-35Bs embarked.
Dear Graham, we have different perspectives – natural. Yes, I acknowledge there was a FONOPS conducted, and QEC rather than challenging the PLAN slipped away at night… Hmm.
So we have some similar experiences but different views; it’s not a bad thing.
Dear David, many thanks. I think most people considered CSG21 to be a success – I gained a favourable view on it from watching the recent ‘Warship’ programme.
As a maritime nation we need a strong and effective navy but I get somewhat despondent when people put the army 3rd in priority, seemingly forgetting that the army bears the brunt of warfighting for the nation and, with rare exceptions and until recently, soldiers fight and die in operational deployments pretty much every year.
The Army are not third Sir, they have put themselves there. A bit like Chelsea FC apparently.
I’d disagree with your assessment of CSG 21, one 45 tasked with laying up because – it couldn’t function, US Marines taking pro rata the bigger share of flying ops and then so many ships on Diplomacy visits, the QE ran away in the middle of the night.
China needs facing down with might, anything else is humiliating.
However, Sir, both our hearts are in the right place even if we disagree. God bless.
David, I have seen plenty of contributors here who have ranked the army third in priority, meaning that if they were DS they would fund the navy the most, then the RAF and only then the army because they perceive the RN and RAF to be more beneficial to the nation’s defences. The point was not about ‘quality’ or ‘quantity’ of each service Perhaps you take too critical view of a complex escort vessel having mechanical problems – that happens – and I don’t think it denigrates the value of the group’s deployment. As for USMC doing more flying ops,… Read more »
Graham, sure you meant LM, not Boeing? Not sure QE was ever ‘alone’ at any time.
Yes, Boeing, you are right.
I agree that QE would not have been alone – she had her escorts. I was just puzzled at David’s thought that she let the side down by running away in the dead of night; aggressive confrontation was surely not required.
That’s the popular upcomming fashion. But what happens when your totally autonomous sub breaks down on deployment with nobody onboard or nearby to fix it? “Can we have our Sub back please?”
Because the Army pished away the PIDs!
However, you’re right… unless you take account of 2 T23s and numerous minehunters and other vessels going out of commission. Just saying.
It’s strange that a Travelodge etc al can bang up reasonable (ish) accommodation and yet our armed forces can’t.
How is it that hotel groups are offering increasingly sophisticated places for some great prices, including families, and the armed forces are offering shoiteholes… yes, I lived at Woolwich!
Most accommodation across Naval establishments is SLAM or single living accommodation. Modern blocks with individual cabins with en suite. Kitchen areas on each floor and shared TV rooms. Internet, lots of storage and three quarter size beds as standard. Not sure about the married patch. Yeovilton was good. But accommodation at main operating bases is better then most expect, and has been for 15 + years. Its usually the smaller units and training camps where accommodation is found wanting. But the training isn’t meant to be easy. And shared accommodation is part of the experience.
Agree 100% new builds and refurbs offer fantastic accommodation, it’s the older accommodation which is lacking, that said a lot of squaddies actually prefer the older blocks which allow them to build their rooms as they see fit and of course the cheaper charges. Regards pads, I’ve found that the RAF and Navy actually pay much more attention than do the army regards the quality and standard. When we had to attend events down at RMAS rather than stay at the mess there (fairly new block) I would always book myself into Bellews Rd Mess at Deepcut, Older building, but… Read more »
I was stationed at RAF Cottesmore, and the Sargeants and Officers mess had real character, smelt like an old pub and a maze of corridors. It was great. Large comfortably rooms too, just the older style. When stations are closed down I think of the memories and good times had in these places. Once full of life and young men and women enjoying the unique lifestyle being in the Force’s is all about.
Agreed. Think of all that accomodation in Germany that has probably now been bulldozed. All those memories for British service personnel over a period of 70-odd years. A unique lifestyle indeed.
I watched a YouTube video recently of a guy driving around the old RAF Bruggen in Germany. Most buildings and married quarters are still in tact. Just very sad to see it all overgrown and abandoned. Used to house 4 frontline Tornado Sqns and was a very busy and important strategic camp. At least RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus has survived and has a secure future. Some RAF lads I used to work with said it was fantastic serving in Germany back in the heyday.
Not sure it’s that sad, there use to be 3 million Warsaw pact soldiers and 45,000 nucleur weapons pointed at us which is why those Tornado squadrons were there.
Now we can afford better health care and higher pensions with lower taxes because they are not needed.
Sounds like a big win.
Germany can guard its own boarder now
Think you are missing my point, Jim.
Better health care? What planet are you living on???
Mate my much older bruv was in the 4/7RDG in Detmold from 84-91, me and our younger bro visited him a few times before he left the mob, Detmold was a very well laid out and organised 1930s German Army base (still had the old rifle racks in each accommodation corridor)! But since early 2000 ish was turned into Asylum seeking person’s accommodation and community! To include the families accommodation the “hack”! Now a dump, blocks and buildings still there, but all ruined and forgotten and surrounded by disrespectful, selfish, none German dross!
Hi mate. Yeah, I understand a few of the ex Germany camps are now holding asylum seeker’s. I guess for somebody working in government, they are a good place to put them, but for people who have served and lived in these places they hold many fond memories.
You didn’t have the pleasure of Olen on the E313(to Aachen?) then?
I’ve watched the same vid, showed my dad it then went down memory lane with him remembering when we lived there back in the mid eighties. Walking to Douglas Bader school then waiting for the kids who lived off base to arrive from Elmpt and Dodenburgh on the bendy-buses. Loved it and can only imagine how enjoyable the lifestyle was for young service folk. It really is sad to see once vibrant stations overgrown and unused. Same with all the stations, camps and barracks in the UK we’ve lost over the last 20 years. Can only close them once.
It is sad to see abandoned stations. When I left the Navy, I did my resettlement course at Cottesmore. It was handing over to the Army then, but it just didn’t feel the same. It was very quiet and the airfield was closed. I wish I hadn’t gone back and seen it that way from how it was as a busy Harrier station.
I guess the notable decline of defence infrastructure will only really resonate with those people such as yourself that lived through the ‘halcyon’ days of Cold War but for me as a RAF brat of the day I like to think I have an appreciation of the way things were back in the day.
The Cold War was a bit before my time, but it’s always a shame to see these camps close down. So much history and life. But I guess we can’t keep these stations going for sentimental reasons. They cost big money to operate. RAF Scampton has just closed, which isn’t far from me. A lovely classic RAF station, another one gone. Fingers crossed, it is ear marked to become an aviation heritage centre and museum and a technology enterprise site. 👍If it isn’t filled with asylum seeker’s.
Most if not all accomodation used by BAOR/BFG has been returned to the German Government who have re-purposed it for civilian use. I have not heard of any demolitions.
Well according to Google Maps out of 3 locations i was in in Germany Mercer/Imphal Bks (completely bulldozed) and Roberts Bks (at least 4 accomodation blocks gone) in Osnabruck. Barker Bks in Paderborn still looks intact but certainly not used as it was. My point is that these were living breathing communities full of common purpose, good times and regimental tradition. They certainly aren’t now but I understand that times move on.
Morning Robert – re your comment “Officers mess had real character, smelt like an old pub” Our Air Force officers mess was full of both character and many characters too! Happy days! Geez, I miss the ’80s and the Cold War. 😀
Happy day’s eh. It’s hard to explain to those who haven’t experienced it first hand the kind of atmosphere and good times had In these camps designed for war. An RAF station on a summer’s evening can be a magical place. I know that will sound ridiculous to some. But if you know, you know. 👍🍻
sure were Robert – wouldn’t trade the experience! Stay well.
You too mate 👍
Mushrooms?
I’ll get mi coat.
Taranto hill was always a bit shit mate, grew up there. It’s a bit better now.
Ah Ilchester. Went out with a farmers daughter from Ilchester. Seems a long time ago now. 😄
Ilchester? Nice but if Roman history there mate but I digress lol
Yeah I was thinking more about the ex girlfriend 😆👍
What you’re trying to tell us is that you’re a Captain Wales wannabee who lost his virginity in a field behind a little country pub…
…
Baaaaa
Avionics Tech pal on Sea Harrier FA2’s, who just happened to have a girlfriend from Ilchester back in 2001. That ok for you David.
I was attempting humour, obviously, I failed.
It came across as taking the piss.
Take a look at the latest student accommodation, it’s very good, almost like having a fancy flat
there really is no excuse for mil accommodation standards, national disgrace.
seems gov wants to outsource everything, including its accountability, but outsourcing doesn’t work like that.
Lancaster student accommodation looks fantastic down by the River Lune!
Lancaster? FFS David I had a big fuckoff caravan at Glasson Dock lol 👍
You studied? for a… Degree? How the foxtrot could you remember anything after the double lobotomy?
Nope….my daughter did, I visited and pretended to know what the fuck the conversation entailed 🤪👍
I’ve had that in Latvia, Slovakia and the Czech Republic – all had Masters. Although the providence of the Slovak students quallies is questionable given their propensity to wear short skirts, black, thigh high, stockings and blouses with an extra button open revealing their heaving bosoms held within black bras while defending their thesis work. Luckily, I could 100% resist any temptation. The Latvians were straight laced, DOUBLE Masters with long skirts, there was an inherent challenge that I took upon myself to discover the truth, that I undertook with the alacrity of the RMP training instilled within me. Life… Read more »
It’s a good job you were highly trained in RMP resistance to interrogation techniques! My time in Slovenia on a number of range packages (and a job or two) gave me the exact same problems and a similar outcome…drunk, garbled a load of top secret shit, fell asleep and woke up minus my wallet…..
Er… I was an English teacher, they all fell to my suave interrogation technique, where I really placed emphasis on the position of the tongue… when discussing techniques… and they couldn’t rob me, I had no money 🙂
Damn! I wish I had your RMP pay scales, I would have been ok as couldn’t even have afforded to fly there…..you boys know how to do covert ops!!!!! 😇😂
But the question I posed on another thread is what tactical help would you buy?
40 year old Black Hawk design or AW149 to replace the Pumas etc al?
(Serious question).
Serious question deserves a serious answer and that will be timescale to numbers! Blackhawk quicker delivery as available, but older and will require replacement sooner! AW more modern (expensive) fewer procured but longer in service hence cheaper in the long run! But, when push comes to shove, we need a replacement within 2 years and it’s Blackhawk for me mate!
@John Clark, there’s your answer.
Thanks Airborne.
And which of your blokes did you say wore the stockings?
I’d been MP, not Royal.
It isn’t a national disgrace because most of it is very good.
David, what does your first sentence mean? The army does not set its overall Establishment figures – politicians do. Politicians have cut the regular army once or twice a decade since the end of the Korean war – and often have not cut tasks or responsibilities accordingly. I also think it is fair to say that not all military living accomodation is dire – many barracks have had SSLA upgraded to a good standard over the years. Just not everywhere is up to scratch. Same is true of Families Quarters for ‘the pads’. Short-stay training camps are often rough and… Read more »
Yes, joys of Warcop, Catterick, Otterburn and Longmoor; And Saigton camp lived up to its name 🙂
The teens saw an Establishment of around 82K, army could not recruit that number by around 10K (and I have that on very good authority) but, they held on to the Establishment figure rather than allowing a distribution to Royal, Royal Navy and the RAF – and those services needed manpower; I’d also wager Royal could have recruited any uplift as well.
When the Army was cut to 72k, it was low hanging fruit for the pollies.
Hi David, I used to write Unit Establishments (UE) for REME. The UE is of course the document that is the authority for a unit to hold x soldiers, y vehicles, z weapons etc – and is based on the unit’s mission. There is no way the army would want to reduce its Establishment number of soldiers (PIDs, as some people are now saying) otherwise that could not properly do its job. Strength, of course is the real world figure reflecting real world inflow and outflow and should ideally equal the UE figure but in reality never quite will. If… Read more »
Dear Graham Thank you for your explanation – many of us will have been educated by you. However, may I take issue with a few points you made? 1st Bn Royal Scots were and are drastically undermanned; their tasks did not decrease, merely, they were given augmentees from other Regiments; paradoxically, that left the other Regiments undermanned to fulfil tasks. A true politician would have cut the Regiment from the Orbat – cue incoming flack from SNP. Secondly, giving PIDs to the Royal et al. would not and is not giving them to the opposition, merely allowing the other services… Read more »
Dear David, perhaps I did not explain very well. With Establishments, the only reason they get reduced is if politicians reduce the funded headcount (nothing to do with actual strength of the army) to make financial savings in a ‘Defence review’ or if the army decides that it wants a smaller level of manpower in a unit. Otherwise a unit cannot do its job – if you reduce the establishment of an infantry section from 8 to say, 5 or 6 soldiers, then it is unlikely to be able to do its job, unless some radical tactics or weaponry have… Read more »
Dear Graham I do understand your point perfectly well, however, those establishment posts were never filled, those in phase 2 training were counted as trained, those medically downgraded and undeployable were kept on strength as the disaster known as Capita turned off the recruit pipeline, and circa 10k posts remained unfilled for several years and there was nothing the Army was capable of doing to come back up to strength. Changing demographics, a very poor Army offer as against a Royal who have a good offer along with the Royal Navy and RAF could have filled those posts; can you… Read more »
Dear David, I understand that you consider that if the army could not recruit/retain manpower such that strength matched Establishments, that the other services should have been permitted to increase their strength. Establishments would have had to be amended – army Established posts reduced and RN/RM/RAF established posts increased. Reason – it is the Establishment that gives the authority to hold manpower (and vehicles, weapons etc). BTW, soldiers who are in a unit filling an established post but who are medically downgraded, or otherwise non-FE, are on a long career course etc are still counted as being on the strength… Read more »
100%; however, the Army had to offer up those posts and the case made to the SecState Defence to transfer them. In the 70s, 80s and into the 90s service personnel were medically discharged, it changed in the naughties and indeed that exemplar of killing machine, the SAS kept on blokes who, limbs lost, could impart knowledge – no bad thing for Tier 1 SF, however, line Bns and Corps Regts don’t have that luxury for deployment – they need every capable body deployed. However, from the naughties, there was leeway – and the Army took advantage – meanwhile the… Read more »
My point is that if the army offered up 10K posts to another service (RN/RM/RAF) they would have had to dis-establish 20 infantry battalions or the equivalent. I doubt you would find a CGS who would sign up to losing that (probably permanently) from their Orbat. When units deploy they are made up to strength with all FE personnel, drafted in from other units. Its what has happened for donkeys years – robbing Peter to pay Paul. I recall seeing quite a few war-disabled guys in 16 AA Bde in Colchester whien I was there 2006-2009, including one who was… Read more »
Graham, can I ask an off thread question, please?
With the smoke dispensers on the Chally, Forces News always shows them banging out all the grenades. However, are they reloaded internally or externally?
I always thought they were externally reloaded and given their ability to break weapons lock on laser guided atgm, how the heavens can they be reloaded under hostile threat conditions?
On each side of the turret are five L8 smoke grenade dischargers; the smoke dischargers are loaded/reloaded externally.
Challenger 2 can also create smoke by injecting diesel fuel into the exhaust manifolds, so reloading the L8 smoke dischargers in contact is not required.
Making smoke is an occasional and not a near-continuous activity, despite some ‘exciting’ videos.
That would be as ballsy as Airborne jumping out of a plane capable of flying and landing, when the tank was in an NBC environment; God in Heaven.
Yep, thats why they would not reload the smoke grenades in contact – just switch on the other smoke producing system.
Plenty of times a crew has to get out of a tank – to refuel, bomb up, do maintenance etc – do that in a laager (not lager!) when out of contact, of course.
I was in Nelson SR Mess looking out longingly when they built the SLAM. It was put up in exactly the same way as a Travelodge etc is built. Pre fitted out modules arrive on a low loader, craned off and stacked. Common Utilities connected. Brick skin on the outside, roof on the top Done.
Good to hear, thanks Gunbuster.
We recruit more personnel and train them. Everything is possible, and there is some time – those new ships won’t be built and declared operational for a while. Just don’t get Capita involved in the recruitment piece!
Just keep pumping out T26’s eventually this era of hostile competition will pass like it usually does, if that’s the case then the spare assets could be long term mothballed or fetch decent prices on the market.
I have already written off T31 as well below par. If they spend more on it, they can perhaps get it to just below par (unless real money is spent). Hopefully they have leaned a few things by the time they get to T32 (or rather relearn things originally learned long ago). 24 escorts needs 24 ships capable of escorting. Current plans don’t reflect that. Hopefully there is at least 19 at some point in the early 2030’s.
I have to say I don’t have an issue with T31, it’s up the job, it’s gun armament is absolutely ferocious and it’s 24 Sea Ceptor certainly don’t make it a slouch. It’s got the space and displacement for flexibility and we can add weapon systems as we go. I would at least have an equivalent loadout of Sea ceptor to T23. My suggestion would be add 5 more T31’s and four more T26. That would rebalance most of the fleet, we do need an additional 3 T45’s too, that’s not happening, so perhaps three AAW optimised T26 added to… Read more »
I agree T31 is well designed as a “close in warfighter”, optimized to counter fast-boat swarm, and even drones/UAV attack.
By the way, “it’s 24 Sea Ceptor” is true? I see no update after seeing CGs fitted with 12 of them. Any info? (CGs with 24 of them was Arrowhead140 for export proposal, not T31).
No.
I agree I read an interesting design paper on the T31 and the process they went through. The RN did not specify the Armament. Instead it’s seems what they did was ask all the design teams to come up with an armament set to tackle a specific set of targets at a specific set of ranges and pick the best set up…I was not the cheapest it was actually the best for what the navy wanted from a patrol frigate designed for combat in enclosed and crowed waters…which is why the gun armament is what it is. also if you… Read more »
Out of interest, do you mean the design paper at this link https://library.imarest.org/record/10665?ln=en&p=Type+31 or is there another one out there about T31?
Hi TW it was another one that specifically did a critique of the design process and philosophy. If I can find the reference I will stick it on.
Well the RN’s opposition certainly won’t regard it as “well below par” nor does the RN.
With 56mm and 40mm guns, Sea Ceptre, NSM, and a Wildcat, the Type 31 is more than capable. Though fitting the Type 41 VLS would certainly be the icing on the cake.
With MK41 VLS, which the former 1SL said he would like to fit, then T31 would be a very, very powerful warship. It is a proper NATO standard warship hull and as such is BDR capable. I’d rather be on a T31 in a hot zone than T21 (never meant to be in a war zone as it was for coastal defence), T42 (yes really – I never though much of the builds – fireproofing was a nightmare as the bulkheads didn’t line up) or County (death trap if hit in the wrong place) Where is that guy always talking… Read more »
Absolutely, which is why I’d be happy if T32 turns out to be T31 batch 2.
The Sunday Times reported that T32 was looking at being £500m each, double the T21 budget, hence the affordability review.
Now the T31 is cheap partly because it’s getting a lot of hand-downs from the T23s (eg Sea Ceptors, etc). I wonder if the higher figure came from the fact everything for T32 would have to be new, rather than reused from T23s.
I can’t believe that any munitions are included in T31’s price.
I think the Mk41 VLS and a 5” gun plus a full sonar suite and quietened hull/drive train may have made the difference.
So I think some pruning is required back to closer to T31 specs.
The NS100 radar isn’t the Artisan sets off T23? So that and the CMS are all new.
More the launch cells etc for the Sea Ceptres are carried across from the T23. Hopefully our stocks of Sea Ceptre missiles are more numerous than that.
I can’t believe the requirements for the T32 included
“ the Mk41 VLS and a 5” gun plus a full sonar suite and quietened hull/drive train”
That’s essentially a T26 you’ve described. Why would they do that instead of simply building more T26s?
The CMS is likely to come down to who wins the contract for T32.
So take T31 as a starting point.
Assume it is £300m a copy due to inflation.
Then what is added to beef up the costs?
MK41 VLS – £25m
5” gun – £45m £183m for first three including training setup
Sonar 2150 – £4m
That leaves £26m to make things quieter.
Sounds about right to me.
It won’t, of course, be T26 quiet but it will be quite enough for active sonar use.
If it really was £500m then something quite expensive was being done to them.
‘Standard’ missiles?
That is really unlikely.
RN is going down the Aster / Ceptor combo (various flavours) as they are a really great system and work as well as not hitting ITAR.
NSM and FCAS are the other systems that will be there. I’d guess that FCAS might will be on T26 and might end up on other ships with VLS?
As it can probably be fired from SYLVER VLS that might be why T45 isn’t getting Mk41 and that it is getting CAMM-ER?
Haven’t heard that T45 is getting CAMM-ER. Just CAMM.?
Speculation, but there is a project with Poland to develop CAMM.
I’d don’t think the press releases specified the CAMM model number for T45 so it is all open.
SB, I think it was CAMM-EX, not sure if it siloed or quad packed vls. Hope they can squeeze in more than 24 CAMM on the T45s and fully utilise the MK41s space.
It’ll be interesting to see if the CAMM-EX can fit into the CAMM silo which if it can has great potential for even upgrading the T26s later on.
Nothing has been announced in any detail yet.
I think we will have to wait until T31 is further along before we know for sure.
In these times of heightened threats things are, clearly, a lot vaguer than they were set that against a more consistent drip of MOD press releases is also reality.
CAMM is under active development so it unsurprising that range and other capabilities are increasing. With announced collaboration and projects.
Tend to agree actually. So what are the missile targetting limits of the T31 radar?
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/04/thales-ns110-radar-for-uks-type-31-frigates-passes-test/
As I’ve said elsewhere that may not be the limiting factor is other radars and sensors are networked together.
It might acquire the target from a T45 or QEC with a very powerful radar suite and then send a missile to the location which then self guides using its own seeker.
It is a mistake to think of a platform in isolation.
Like Mk 41s, Sylvers come in different sizes, and the Type 45s use Sylver A50s, not the A70s needed to fire a cruise missile. This is why the French can fire MdCN, the naval version of Storm Shadow, from most of their FREMMs and we can’t from the Type 45.
I’m not sure why the French haven’t fitted Horizons or AAW FREMMs with the A70s and the MdCNs, but I’d expect we’d have a similar reason not to put FCASW on the Type 45s.
There is apparently space to swap out A50 for cells A70 on T45 – according to NL.
Do we know which length slot FCASW needs? There might well be versions with different ranges if Aster is anything to go by?
It would strike me as unlikely that T45 wouldn’t be able to fire them as it has the best radars.
Sounds like that’s still £100m off to me. Of course the Sunday Times may not printed the right numbers so I wouldn’t worry too much about trying to make things add up.
Exactly – my point is if you start with. T31 then you have to add a lot of warship to get to £500m.
It isn’t worth adding that much to as you are getting close to T26 money on a much better hull.
No need to go quite that far to make par, but yes. I put T23 GP as roughly par for a frigate that can fit in anywhere with anybody & do just about anything to some degree. T31 currently can’t do that. T23 can. Anzac frigates can. FREMM frigates can. F100 frigates can. One can hope you are describing T32.
T31 with NSM has plenty of firepower.
So I’m not sure what more you’d want really?
The medium frequency sonar piece can be added for relatively modest cost.
They are currently looking at 8 NSM (maybe – some time down the track – as the last 5 ASW T23 start to retire). That’s it. There is no backup for the then & nothing for the now. This is supposed to be a global deployable frigate capable of operating on its own. How? When? NSM is a very good missile, but first they need to get it on board. The sonar is not expensive, but is not fitted. The expected helo does not have sonar. There is no shipped launched LWT torpedoes. The guns don’t have a FC radar… Read more »
I think T31 will slot in directly for T23 so the missile fit will be moved across.
I’d see NSM on the first one from the off for trials purposes.
We have no idea of the CAMM fit – it wasn’t announced.
When George does a drone fly over when it is in the drink we can count the hatches.
Things are being kept quiet about deliberately.
There were 13 hull mounted sonar bought for T23….so it isn’t impossible……
I do find it odd that Artisan wasn’t recycled although that would mean a CMS integration risk.
I’d like to see at least some T31/32 fitted with a 5″ gun rather than the 57mm, to enable decent NGS capability on out more expendable escorts. Having a decent sized gun only on our hugely expensive & too few AAW destroyers & ASW frigates is idiotic.
But it was designed when there were to be 5 GP versions? So the GP versions got chopped to form T31 which was the spiritual successor to the Skoda class (T23). All down to budget. I do accept the usefulness of NGS and often argue for it on here. The thing is what is NGS for? Soft targets 57mm is fine for. Bunkers even a 4.5” might struggle with depending on concrete thickness etc. At that point you need a missile or an iron bomb. Sure in ‘82 troops were very glad of 4.5” NGS and the various T21s and… Read more »
Here is a good account of NGS during GWII involving HMS Marlborough. Bunkers, troops in the open, supporting fires all done by her and her crew. She never received the GWII Battle Honours other vessels received because she was paid off not long after and it would be a tad embarrassing to issue the honour and then pay her off. She was a great ship and had a top crew.
HMS Marlborough’s Account of the Iraq War, March 2003 – Naval Historical Society of Australia (navyhistory.au)
Makes you remember how large RN still was even at GW1 & 2……
What’s being reused on the Type 31s from the Type 23s? A few missiles, some decoys, and maybe canisters for NSM (and maybe not). It doesn’t feel like a lot. I’m not even sure if the GPMGs and miniguns will be handed down. All the major equipment items on the Type 31 — CMS, main guns, radars, sensors, sonar 270, ESM — are all new. I expect the cost of Type 32 was because someone asked the Navy what they wanted, wrote down the laundry list and priced it up. Not enough questions about why the captain’s niece’s new pony… Read more »
Spot on.
Love the “laundry 📃” bit… Lol 😁
Indeed the type 21 was classic example of a ship that should never have been used in such a way..it was only ever designed as a brown water patrol frigate…the type 31 is a very well designed warship indeed…and from the design papers I have read the RN went to town and improved on the survivability from the original hull design, which was as you say was at NATO standard to begin with.
Agree, T31 is a frigate in the true sense of the word (ww2 style) where as the T26 is more like an anti submarine cruiser. We need both for a war fitting scenario, very high end platforms guarding the carriers in a very high threat environment while the medium end frigates guard extended logistic chains for the fleet and low end platforms continue to provide global constabulary presence. T31 is far beyond the capability of the T21 and T12 we sent to the Falklands in 1982 which were little more than bullet catchers. Armed with sea Ceptor T31 is a… Read more »
Also able to defend themselves from surface and AAW threats including missiles and bombs. Unlike their forbears.
Yes the T31 as designed ( without the navel strike missiles which will come) is a very defensive fit….and for a general purpose vessel that’s what you really want…something that can stick itself in front of the high value ship or merchant ships and but out a lot of defensive fire…also being able to take what comes at you and survive…seems to me that is exactly what the RN has got itself…never could quite understand all the moaning. Even better it’s got bags of space to add and evolve as budgets and needs develop..ASuW…surface strike, carry whatever new autonomous systems… Read more »
So long as not FFBNW AShMs. CAMM is a great SAM & far greater range than the old seawolf or obsolete even in 1982 seacat. One major lesson of the conflict was a lack of AAA. Better SAMs help, but one thing T31s do have is excellent AAA. It always worried me when the normal AAA position in recent decades was given to autocannon only useful for defeating fast attack boats, with negligable AA capability due to a very slow rate of fire. Any other light AA could do that role while keeping AAA. Tere’s also the vital need to… Read more »
CAMM-ER is comparable with Sea Dart in terms of range. It is a very, very serious AAW weapon. It is also faster and a lot cleverer than Sea Dart ever could have been.
As far as I’m aware the only differentiation in launch tubes is length.
Which is why I’m a bit puzzled why people as so ‘it only has CAMM on it’ and ‘we need more ships like T42’ – for AAW a T31 is way better than a T42 ever was even after all the upgrades.
There is no CAMM-ER in RN, enemy missiles have an increased range compared to 1982 and much more widespread..
We now have 70kg class missiles capable of being launched from out side CAMM range, so it is much easier to saturate a CAMM installation when the launching vector is not at risk.
I agree that the ER flavours are not currently in RN service.
But we can be pretty clear that they will be in the future. CAMM family is evolving.
Exocet exceeded the range of Sea Dart in ‘82…..
Some current missiles gave 1000km ranges.
Yes, but you needed an Etendard to launch an Exocet and it could take 1 only, you need an airport to take off etc , 1000km missile are even more expensive and rare. You can have several Bayraktar TB2 drone with 2x 70kg missiles with 50km range and CAMM cannot do anything about except trying to kill the missile.
What i am trying to tell is that you can get a mission kill on the cheap comparatively with technology that is much more widespread too with many more actors even not need to be countries.
I agree. But those cheapo drone launched missiles are for EW / decoys / 57mm / 40mm / CIWS to deal with. The systems assess the inbound target and assign the measures appropriately to the threat. You wouldn’t waste a Ceptor on a cheapo inbound. In ‘82 it was semi automated for Sea Wolf and very much man in the middle for Sea Dart – the other missile systems were IRL manual. You cannot compare the layering connected to the CMS from now to then. I agree 1000km missiles are more expensive and in the hands of a few and… Read more »
If you are preventing a mission kill of a 300M$ ship you should use everything at hand. Just the eventual damaged radar and the trip to the shipyards costs more and a CAMM.
No you don’t.
That way you deplete your big hitters against small fry.
I don’t know why you consider a T31 not stealthy enough to operate a TA system? Ok, it’s got a Diesel propulsion system, so it won’t be as quiet as a T26, but then again it’s only a third of the price of a T26. US ABs have a GT propulsion system – considerably noiser then that of a T31 will be, yet they are happy to operate a TA? The MOD could easily fit a TA to these vessels if they chose to, but haven’t. If in the future push came to shove and the requirement was there, then… Read more »
Noise reduction was a specific option for T31 that Babcock offered which would have allowed T31 to operate as a more effective ASW platform however the option was not taken in cost grounds.
It makes sense given the respective roles of T26 and T31.
Yes it does make sense mate, especially as the Danish IH class, which the T31 is based on is already NATO ASW compliant in terms of quietness – whatever that standard is? Reasonable to assume that T31 will be no worse. The Danes are in the process of converting their Absolom class to ASW frigates and fitting a TA. Not sure what the whole package entails, but, their propulsion system is the same as the IH bar two Die engines less. The IH are loosely based on the Absolom class, so, if the Danes are happy to use them as… Read more »
Hi Jim
Where did you get this from, both the noise reduction option and the RN choosing to not take it up?
Thanks
Babcock have publicly commented to the fact that rafting of machinery is an option, but it needs to be taken up at build (not a retrofit). Have a look at the A140 website. They have various specs for different orientations of the A140 (including ASW). T31 is a down graded version of their base GP design. You can of course meld your own version. The Polish version spec shows how bad the T31 really is.
So perhaps the high T32 cost = T31 + noise reduction at build.
A DG will be on AV Mounts but those mounts wont be on a separate mount isolated raft. So the DGs wont be bolted directly onto the hull and any pipework will have flexible couplings between the engine and the ship systems anyway.
100%
T22 had a tail and DG x 4 and 4 x GT.
AB has GT and even GT Alternators….and a tail
CAPTAS 4/ Sonar 2087 is Active LF/Passive. If you know how a tail works, is constructed with vibration isolation module and operated with consideration for the length of stay and ships speed , a “noisy” tow ship isn’t a great issue as you will be dipping the tail below a layer at a long distance from the ship.
Drones can operate thin line arrays away from the ship
You also want a vessel that can stick close to the carrier and put itself between the carrier and the threat…that need a good short range area AAW fit, which is exactly what the type 31 has.
A number on here keep mentioning 24 CAMM. I must have missed the announcement. Last I heard, it was still 12. Both are well short of the T23.
Most front line frigates carry 8 AShM. Some 16. So anything less than 24 AAW misses & you need a friend to help out & hope they didn’t bring a friend.
In regards to the AShM the navy has purchased 11 sets of NSM…that is the exact number of type 45s and ordered type 31…so essentially it’s already ordered and procured the AShMs for the type 31…As for CAMM there are no fixed numbers just the up to 24…I would also note that there are plenty of frigates running around with a far less effective load out than even 16 CAMM…la Fayetteville class is just one example with nothing more than a close in last ditch SAM…or even the Aquitaine class FREMM..a large 6000ton high end escort has only 16 ASTER… Read more »
It should be noted that RN is moving away from Aster 15. I expect all other Aster 15 users to follow. Convert Aster 15 to Aster 30 & replace with newer smaller quad packable options. The soft launch single silos are cheap but waste space. Every single Aster 15 can be replaced by 4 CAMM / CAMM-ER / ESSM etc. So a FREMM could be carrying 64 CAMM-ER rather than 16 x Aster 15. Ukraine is just an example of what’s coming down the pipeline (more on land, but a cruise missile is still a cruise missile). Who cares if… Read more »
Yes but the French are not moving away from Aster 15, the point was a hell of a lot of front line escorts only have 16 or so short range AAW missiles or not even that with only Close in defence missiles..so the type 31 whatever the fit will not be an outlier. As for MK42 silos used for CAMM, if you have free silos why not. But a strike length set of MK41 silos is massively intrusive into the ship, has a far greater weight and costs a fortune..the only reason to put them in is if you are… Read more »
T21 and T12s great bomb catchers too. Good job the Argies used bitish supplied bombs with defective fuses or we’d have lost a lot more ships & crews.
“With 56mm and 40mm guns, Sea Ceptre, NSM, and a Wildcat…”
1: Not sure NSM will be added. Basically it will be added to T23ASW first, and around 2032-2036, when the 5 T23s starts to disband, the NSMs will be retrofitted to somewhere else. May be T31, may be T26. But, I agree it is possible, around mid-2030s.
2: “a Wildcat” is actually “up to two Wildcats” or “a Wildcat and a few UAVs”. T31 has a large hangar.
T26 has Mk41 VLS so why would T26 need the canister launched variant?
I don’t think anyone uses a MK41 for NSM not even the USN. Besides which why use up a VLS slot when it can be loaded with other weapons that can’t be canister mounted (TLAM etc).
T26’s Mk41 VLS is for hypersonic something (FCASW). In other words, expensive missiles, maybe several millions of GBPs each.
NSM is a different class of missile.
Also, FCASW will come in 2030? I doubt.
Maybe.
Maybe T26’s 24 slots will contain
8 x Hypersonics
8 x NSM
8 x Cruise
Who knows?
For some targets a multi million pound hypersonic is a total waste of time.
They’re buying 11 sets of NSM • 6 go to Type 45 • 5 go to Type 23s The NSM is going to be fitted to long before 2032. The RN plans to have 3 ships fitted with the NSM by the end of this year. They plan to recycle equipment off the T23s in equipping the T31s – eg Sea Ceptre cells. And given they’ll have 5 sets, and the T31 is a 5 ship class, this is the most logical destination. (Especially as the 6 ship Type 26 is planned to field the FC/ASW as its anti-ship missile… Read more »
I don’t believe the Sea Cepter cells will be recycled. The T23s recycled those from Sea Wolf, but all the illustrative models of T31, T26 and T45 have a different 6-cell block arrangement. Given that most of the expensive stuff comes in the canister, not the cell (the missiles being soft-launch, and without even a flip-top lid), I can’t see why you’d transfer the cells.
To be honest the cold launch silos are pocket change items, so agree I would not think it would be economical to reuse these.
The T23 fit was a means to an end. There are no cells to transfer. The SC rectangular box fits into an adaptor in the round legacy Sea Wolf silo deck hole. Below decks in the SC mag ( Legacy SW) has some lower and upper SC cannister securing arrangements. No SW legacy gear to be seen except for the mag sprays. Its just the way the RN fitted a square peg in a round hole to keep costs down and to get a far better system to sea as quickly as possible. There should be no reason why the… Read more »
The numbers being purchased suggest it will be added to all 5 T31 and 6 T45.
T26 will operate Mk41 VLS and FC/ASW weapon so will have no need for NSM.
You could add NSM above the mid Bay as on the Canadian and Australian T26s which are looking like having NSM, TLAMs, SM3/6s, CAMM/ESSM. Quite a mix.
FCASW does not yet exist. If they were doing live fire testing, then you could be reasonably certain of a date within +/- a few years. If FCAWS does not turn up til much later, you need a plan that allows for that.
The RN is ordering the exact amount of NSM systems to fit the type 45 and type 31 (11 systems) so it’s a fair bet to say once all the type 23s have gone you will have 11 ships with NSM ( 6 Type 45s and 5 type 31s) and the type 26s with something in their MK41 silos…..
Have you looked at how far it is till the last T23 goes? What happens between now & then?
Well not being privileged with the RNs plan…but as around 30% do the escorts are in some form of refit at anyone time I would suggest that 11 sets are very adequate. Also. The last of the type 23s will be probably limited to spending most of their time as part of the ASW screen for either a carrier or amphibious groups as by that point the RN will at most have 8 dedicated ASW platforms ( so probably only having 3 type 26 and 23s active at a time)…I would therefore imagine the GP type 31s would get the… Read more »
“Expecting” the 5 T31 to get 5 NSM sets is reasonable, I agree.
But, expecting T26s to get FCASW “on time” is, very much unlikely. T26 will be “a frigate without anti-ship missiles” for at least several years. In that case, one possibility is to mount NSM take out from T23ASWs to T26s.
“CVTF’s ASW frigates having NSM”, situation will not change in this case.
Just as a possibility.
Please… 56+1=57mm…lol 😁
Sean, you need to add 1mm, it’s a 57mm…lol 😁
Guilty as charged, not even a mistake, “56” bouncing around my head for another reason and got conflated together 🤷🏻♂️
All clear. No charge has been recorded! 😆
Relieved to hear it, I’ve never even had so much as a library book late! 😏
Well it’s a nice number….far more shall we say rounded that 57.
Well 56 is even, whereas 57 is very odd 🤷🏻♂️
I suspect it may be a legacy of the dark-side of the force…
57mm is close to 2.25 Imperial inches
Not too mention our own 114mm 4.5″ guns!!
Sean, please be serious when posting replies, they’ll have no triple mounted 15″ guns in three turrents, so, they’re useless.
Please get with the programme!
Oh that’s so yesterday David.
But they are a bit dated; no regenerative energy shielding, no cloaking technology, no phasers, or photon torpedoes.
Not even a single miserly laser on board!!
I bet they’re not even submersible, which even Russian ships can do these days! 🤷🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
Oh, sorry Master, tis I is getting old 🙁
I’ll remember the head slapping. Thank you Master.
😉
Surely you would want to get ahead of the Japanese (18”) & go 20”?
Sean put me in my place, it is photon torpedoes and hyper drive now.
I believe it’s a 57mm. NSM is a possibility down the track (maybe in the mid 2030’s, but only as the last 5 T23 ASW start to retire). 12 CAMM (unless I missed an announcement), is 1/3 that of T23. No sonar of any type. Wildcat does not have a dipping sonar system in RN service to compensate (does in S.K.). No onboard torpedoes. No NGFS (minimum of 76mm needed). Did not raft the machinery so can’t get close to T23 in ASW no matter what they do. Not sure they have fitted FC radars for the guns, so everything… Read more »
• There’s been no announcement about the number of Sea Ceptre silos. The max is 24, but the 12 figure seems to mainly coming from people counting the hatches on figurative illustrations – not actual plans. • It has Sonar 270. FACT. • ALL the T23s are to be retired by 2035, not starting in mid 2930’s as you state, which will make NSM available sooner. • Of course the machines aren’t rafted, that’s why it’s not a £1b T26. It’s a GP frigate not an ASW frigate 🤦🏻♂️ • NGFS is not a requirement. Only an idiot would endanger… Read more »
Sean, just a bit of extra. Not sure where I saw this but with the T31 based design offered for the Greek corvette program I believe they squeezed in 6*6=36 CAMM. And the NZ Anzac’s have a 2*6+2*4=20 configuration in their old MK41 slot, so you can chop and change it around a bit. When you see what the Danes put on their IH’s there’s huge potential for way more. 😆
Until the problem of how to reload a VLS at sea is solved, having more is always better in case a ship comes under sustained air attack.
And one of the beauties of the T31 ( and T45s too) is that there is a lot of spare space for additional weapon installations in the future. Given the way the T45s are being up-armed with Sea Ceptors and NSM, I suspect that getting the Mark 41 (or future replacement) installed on the T31 will happen sooner rather than later.
SC in its square container is a two man lift if you are feeling strong. It would not be beyond a Herbet Lott award to design a simple pivoting hoist , operated by hand, to lower a SC into a silo at sea. Its a lot smaller and lighter than other missiles.
I imagine the RN would want some type of powered system to reload them, and it being capable in conditions beyond flat calm. From an engineering perspective it’s certainly doable but it raises other thoughts… Where do you store the extra Sea Ceptors? If it’s just below deck, and you have the deck space, why not just have more launch canisters. If it’s deep in the ship, that raises other issues… Or do we need a system to allow reloads from an RFA alongside. Reload is going to be so slow, you’re unlikely to be able to do it mid-attack.… Read more »
KISS. Secondary ammo resupply to guns onboard is by hand using cruets , blocks and tackles and good old muscle power. 9 out of 10 times its quicker than using the powered systems. Reload of SC. I would do a RAS to midships. Carry fwd, reload. To be fair reloading is always an issue for VL systems. SW ( T22) needed the launchers to be reloaded. There was a ready use mag adjacent but you needed to get the missiles from the 4 Deck deep mag via a lift and then a hoist up to the launcher to refill that.… Read more »
Further on from my comment. We have RAS’d Exocet cannisters at sea. Broadsword and Brilliant both damaged exocet cannisters (doors) when down south in 83 during storms. Brilliant rafted next to Fort Austin and we craned off the damaged one and put on a new one. The Fort boats apparently carried 8 spare exocet at the time! Unlike Broadsword we on Brilliant removed the water from the cannister first so we didn’t nearly pull the crane off of its mount! Same thing happened again years later when I was on BRAZEN. Damaged door flooding the cannister. We drained the canister… Read more »
Sean – in reverse order. Gun dueling is what happens when you run out of missiles or your missiles don’t or can’t perform. Remember, a lot of them (not all) are not reloadable at sea. How would you rate the current gun dueling in Ukraine? They are firing thousands of rounds a day (each). 19th century? More like early – mid 20th century except it’s 2023. Note that Russia & Ukraine are hardly 3rd world militaries. There is space dedicated to 32 strike length mk41 cells. You can fit anything you like in this space – mk41, SYLVR, ExLS, single… Read more »
Please advise which ships are currently engaged in gun duels in the Ukraine-Russian war? To the best of my knowledge there are, and indeed have been, none so your “claims of thousands per day” seems rather fanciful. Yes know fully about the Mark 41 VLS which are to be FFBNW on the T31s. Though the RN seems keen that these be fitted from the start. Yes correct, they can be be quad-packed with CAMM / Sea Ceptor. While dedicated FC radar for each and every weapons is better, the integration with the CMS is better than your EOS suggestion. If… Read more »
First paragraph from the Scottish Affairs committe report:
Have to laugh at how a pro Scottish committee whislt attacking the Gov over its ship building program (Getting Navantia to refurbish Belfast and co-building Ships with Poland) fails to mention the elephant in the room.
I can’t see the elephant 🐘. What is it?
The Scottish affairs committee job is to make sure Scotland does well etc.
Is the a regions of England affairs committees that do the same? Like south west, midlands, north east etc etc.
No idea what he is on about, anything for an anti Scottish jibe.
I wonder if the elephant is in fact a Turkey?
(Getting yards in Turkey to build ferries for CalMac)
We’re going to have 2 HMS Belfast on ops? About time they realised how good the old girl is, she’ll give ’em the good news!
Fake news. 23 escorts needed. By…….well now really. 10, 15 years maybe? Waste of ink. Never going to happen! This tory bunch of incompetents need to be binned asap.
To be replaced by?……Labour.
God help us all!! 🤦🏻♂️
A no brainier to be fair you have to have enough submarines including frigates and destroyers to protect the aircraft carriers fact
The problem with the Type 31 is that it is a Frigate sized Constabulary Patrol boat. It has no Sonar or anti Submarine weapons & has no teeth, just short ranged 56mm & 40mm defensive guns. Even the number of Sea Ceptre missiles will probably be just 12 ( up to 24 means 12 ). And the extended range version is available, but will never be fitted in a RN warship due to it’s longer length. The RN is the only navy to have ‘fitted for but not with’, in other words, never fitted with. The Type 31 should have… Read more »
The RN is not the only Navy to not fit certain items of kit or weapons. Most Navy’s do it at some point. US Navy escorts aren’t always tooled up, they often have empty missile racks or VLS tubes. Because its all very expensive, even for the most powerful Navy in the world. Its completely false to think that only the RN does this.
Empty tubes is one thing, they are easily loaded. The RN though sails with no systems fitted at all, not available in port, no option of reloading, and modern systems at best having a time measured in years before they are fitted. It’s a different world from bolting on additional AA guns or depth charge racks. If we find ourselves in a shooting war there’s a good chance there will be no fleet left by the time systems are available. Never mind though, it costs less now. The fact there is zero value for money in working this way is… Read more »
And what do you think is missing that is so critical? Navy’s don’t start shooting weapons at each other overnight. Massive political fallout needs to happen first before warships start a shooting war. Its isn’t a Tom Clancy novel. We have Sea Ceptor, Sea Viper, NSM is now entering service. Martlet, Sea Venom. Spearfish below the waves and Stringray. TLAM, ASRAAM AMRAAM. A host of close in weapon systems. And much more to come. People seem to think every potential enemy warship is bristling with weapons from day one. They are not. How do good do you think a Chinese… Read more »
How simple do you think fitting missing systems is? Over simplified is exactly how you view things not me, I live in the real world where just replacing stocks of existing systems is a process measured in many months. Never mind procuring something new from scratch. To add to that, if things are going down hill in terms of tensions building we won’t be the only nation to be looking to buy, we will find ourselves in a queue of potential buyers for systems that are not quickly produced. How long have we gone before nsm arrives having little more… Read more »
And what systems are missing from the RN? or better still, how star spangled awesome do you think our enemies are? There are very good reasons why we haven’t until now purchased advanced anti ship missiles. You need over the horizon tracking and targeting to make them effective. And as someone who has served in a warship during real operations, I can assure you, the RN has everything it needs to deploy and fulfill any task that is asked of it. low end or high end warfare.
I bow to your superiority admiral. All those years of peeling spuds have clearly served you well.
And that comment is the perfect example of the kind of uninformed whopper you are. Every modern Navy on the planet has capability gaps. They all want new equipment and weapons delivered quicker than they are actually getting them. The RN performs better than most with warship availability and equipping them for operational deployments. Even the US Navy struggles.
Another one…lol 😁… it’s a 57mm. Maybe the Russian’s do a 56mm? 😆
Nonsense. (a) It’s a general purpose frigate, not a special ASW frigate. If you want one of those you need to spend £1b for a T26, not £250m for a T31. (b) It has Sonar 270 (c) The 57mm (not 56) medium calibre main gun is the choice of the USN for its new frigates, which aren’t for constabulary roles. (d) The number of Sea Ceptors hasn’t been announced. Your cynicism does not qualify as evidence that it will be only 12. (e) It doesn’t need a 5” gun because no sensible national is going to risk a major warship… Read more »
Actually I don’t see T31 as a constabulary ‘problem’; that role was just the most urgent role to fill and the budget was a constraint but the minimum weapons and systems spec – now augmented by NSM – enables a T31 is to perform that role anywhere, globally. So job done, budget crisis over, shipbuilding strategy resurrected. Now, looking to the future the RN has options which go in the direction of hull configuration rather than building entire new ships. The Arrowhead 140 hull was a very smart choice: big ship with lots of growth potential, big flight deck, ASW… Read more »
Not good enough. UK navy needs to triple in size to be considered a global power like we pretend we are. Only 2 aircraft carriers is not enough to honour our military treaties, it’s as if we think war will not happen in the various parts of the globe where our treaties obligate us to get involved. Delusion. UK munitions stocks need to be increased tenfold, size of the army doubled, number of tanks and fighter jets dramatically increased. War happens fast, we need to be prepared for when that happens instead of waiting until the next decade whereby we… Read more »
Joseph. Every part of your statement is wrong. On so many levels.
Explain to me then genius how I’m wrong and how the UK is militarily capable of honouring it’s treaty obligations simultaneously when war breaks out.
If your answer involves depending on an ally like the US in any way then I am right that we are too weak on our own and therefore not a global power at all. Basically just a vassal.
Please elaborate on all these treaty obligations that require us to go to war that you seem so panicked about?
All of NATO countries of which most are militarily incapable of defending themselves due to financial neglect, Sweden, Japan, Australia to name a few that are official as well. Not to mention all the wars the US drags us into as their vassal that waste our resources such as Iraq and Afghanistan. Our current military cannot defend them all if attacked simultaneously, we would not be able to defend more than 1 if even 1 at all on our own since we are so weak. My questions to you – why are you so weak minded? Would you expect us… Read more »
I knew from highly emotional tone and sweeping inaccurate generalisations of your comment, that if I set and baited a trap, then you’d walk straight into it… and you didn’t disappoint. There is NO treaty obligation to mutual defence with either Sweden, Japan, Australia, or any other country outside of NATO. Our only treaty obligation is under the Atlantic Charter, where if there is an attack on a NATO member, and they invoke Article 5, and this is confirmed by the Atlantic Council. NATO is the most powerful military alliance ever seen. If one or more members were attacked then… Read more »
I wouldn’t waste your time with him, pal. Clueless.
He certainly is, maybe now he’ll realise just how much… ok, it’s unlikely I know, but I try to remain an optimist.
Hopefully he won’t bother posting any more drivel like this.
Scared of my words are you?
😂🤣😂🤣😂
Scared that you’re probably entitled to vote and exercise other adult responsibilities, given your childishness.
Shivering in my boots over here.
More likely bootees, whilst sucking on your dummy…
Cuban heels actually. I’m a man of taste. Let me guess, you are wearing a pair of flip flops to go with your chicken legs.
Cuban heels 🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Can’t believe you actually admitted that.
Let me guess, paired with a pair of tartan flares, a woollen pullover knitted by your nan, a paisley shirt, and a kipper tie? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Joseph, Sean has given you a detailed and comprehensive answer to your post, do you not think its good practice to debate and defend your point of view? As Sean has demolished your post, do you not want to verify and defend your thought process?
It’s not semantics, in fact, you’re right about Treaty obligations. However, I’d suggest the Defence Agreements signed between AUKUS, and our ancestry would mean we would absolutely sail to her should she be endangered… and if we had any spare platforms.
It’s for another thread; interesting point.
Agreed mate.
You haven’t got the basic knowledge to understand modern day global politics or how the Armed Force’s operate. We aren’t talking about the days of Empire and global dominace. So I’m not going to waste my breath.
Exactly, we are not dominant and have no empire. We are weak and you have submitted yourself to such weakness.
No vision, no dreams of strength and power. What national pride is there to be had in this country? There is no pride in being someone else’s bitch which we are. There for the beck and call of the USA only, incapable of launching our own military campaigns.
Only bitch around here is you.
Incapable of launching our own military campaigns? Guess I imagined the Falklands, Sierra Leone, Libya… all without the USA.
Falklands – defended our own territory which is the bare minimum. I don’t recall us invading Argentina to conquer them, do you? Argentina is not part of the British empire today and still Argentina talk about taking the Islands back.
Sierra Leone was completely pointless, the outcome was not Sierra Leone being British territory. We were the bitches of the Sierra Leone army beating up a bunch of rebels at their beck and call. Are we mercenaries now?
Libya – good lord, we were the bitches of the USA again here.
Oh I get it now, you’re a fascist! I can’t think of another reason why we’d invade Argentine. To overthrow the regime behind the Falklands Invasion? Well the Argentines did that themselves, and it didn’t require British servicemen having their blood shed invading Argentine. Sorry, you wanted us to invade Argentine to make it part of an empire that no-longer exists…. Yes, you’re a fascist. We ended the civil war in Sierra Leone, that means less innocents dying… but being a fascist you don’t care about things like that. The intervention in the Libyan Civil War was sanctioned by the… Read more »
I’m not a fascist, I am an imperialist. Get it right for christ sake. I very clearly want to rebuild the British empire again. With it we can actually eradicate slavery once and for all as well as take back Hong Kong amongst many other glorious ambitions.
I’d rather be a imperialist dreaming of British power then whatever blob of weakness you are. Get on your knees and suck on Joe Bidens shlong, you are a vassal of the American empire.
No, you’re a fascist.
And clearly you’re a repressed homosexual too, given you quickly resort to such imagery for insults. But historically a lot of fascists seem to have been repressed homosexuals, and pederasts.
Are you from ROI? Your writing has a Catholic stink to it.
Interesting you project homosexuality onto me, is there something you need to tell the world? We can’t hear you from how deep in that closet you are. Say it louder.
Nope, I am an imperialist. Losers also resort to calling others fascist, what’s next? Am I racist, sexist and homophobic as well? Labels thrown around by the weak minded
Joseph, I really think it would help your mental health if you came out of the closet and admitted to the world that you’re gay. We live in enlightened times, you won’t be rejected or ridiculed for it. You’ll no-longer have to feel guilty about “sucking shlongs” as you phrase it.
Freeing yourself of this self-loathing might even release you from your fascism and religious discrimination.
One thing is pretty clear though, you’re not a Brit.
Still banging on about homosexuality are you? Has the catholic church still not come to terms with it? Does it consume your mind because you have no reply to my visions for the nation and dreams of empire?
I know you have no visions and are OK being weak, feeble and a vassal bitch of the US. there there, have a glass of warm milk. It’ll be alright. Hush little baby don’t say a word.
You’re the one that raised homosexual acts into a geopolitical debate. Clearly such acts are never far from you waking mind.
It’s patently obvious to any Brit that you’re not one of us, so stop with the phoney “visions of the nation” fascism, nobody takes anything your posting seriously.
Twat.
As a proud imperialist, perhaps you can advise whether my eight year old would best be sent up chimneys, risking permanent lung damage and limb breakage due to falls, or to the wollen mills with the inevitable deafness and where he might have a limb severed as he crawls under the machinery to collect scraps. I need to know which is likely to leave him most fit for military service. He’s small and has his heart set on being a powder monkey, but I said he must wait until he’s twelve. We need the income. Lions led by donkeys. Ah… Read more »
Are you Polish? Naturalised British?
And your knowledge of the issues around Sierra Leone would appear to be lacking. Bit more than “beating up” rebels, I can assure you.
You are living in the past, mate, by about 150 years. National pride and influence isn’t solely based on the size of our Armed Force’s.
Ignore him mate, he’s pretending to be a Brit. He’s too stupid to realise his choice of vocabulary and phrasing betray his impersonation.
Think you are right pal. Complete fruit cake 😄
To be fair mate, his last sentence is getting there, sadly…. 🙄
I’m not sure mate. Its easy to go off on one about the size of our military. But both you and I know its much more complex than that.
Yes mate, that’s agreed. I was ref to his benefits culture comment only.
Its a delicate balance between quality and quantity, and mass does not make a military on its own. We know the variables. 👍
The truth hurts so it’s easy to comfort yourself in lies and weakness like a sheep in a herd scared to stand out. We are no longer the lion but the sheep and you’ve embraced such mediocrity. How old are you? You must be old and part of the useless generation that made us this weak in the 1st place squandering the efforts of our forefathers so you can get free money for providing little use. This country lacks ambition, it lacks a desire for power. We can’t live off the reputation of our empire forever. It is the empire… Read more »
50. And give the insults a rest, you know nothing of what I’ve contributed to my community or not.
Yep part of the generation that made us so weak in the 1st place. No wonder you defend the welfare state, you are one of them. A waste of over 240 billion GBP a year that would be better spent on our military, infrastructure as well as research and development so we can start colonising again and rebuild the empire your generation handed over to violent thugs in exchange for nothing. Things are going great in South Africa aren’t they? It’s not like we left the front door open so Russia could walk right in and steal our influence.
Beautiful! 😂 I’ve never claimed a £ of benefits in my life as it happens, but say what you like. If you read further up thread I did say to Robert you had a point in that regard.
As for the rest. I’ve read some luny posts in my time, and you’re right up there with the best of them.
Start colonizing again? 😆 As Arnie once said, WTF are you???
Huge doubt on your zero benefits claim. I am an imperialist who wants to rebuild the British empire so we can eradicate slavery once and for all, take back Hong Kong amongst many other glorious ambitions. I despair at seeing castrated slaves being bought on Arab slave markets which I know you have no awareness of because you live a sheltered life. Yes of course we need to start colonizing, our birth rates are leading us to extinction and replacement. We need to get shagging already and no better way to do it than colonising. We need to also colonise… Read more »
🤣🤣🤣. That’s a weapons grade crack pipe you’re smoking!!
You want in on some of my stash?
I’ll pass. I’ll stick with the homebrew. It does less damage. I’m with you on the more shagging though.
😄🤣
Doubt away. You’ve come on here like a whirlwind insulting left right and centre, making accusations, and will probably be gone or banned as quickly as you appeared.
“which I know you have no awareness of because you live a sheltered life.”
At it again.
Agree on the Space point BTW.
Let me borrow your comment – “Have some politeness and respect, I have zero shame in mine.”
Some advice, I think the UKDJ is the wrong forum for you! I wonder if you have any subject matter knowledge at all beyond your fantasies of Imperialism being resurrected.
Whirlwinds are forces of nature, symbols of strength, being polite for the sake of being polite has no use in a world of intolerance and evergrowing numbers in power enemies. Insults are simply words, not violence. If I’m banned for that then it simply confirms my perspective that we are too weak as a nation to stand up and seek power. We’d rather protect each others pointless feelings then rip the bandaid off and face the reality we are a dying nation bereft of strength. Respect is earned, not handed out like welfare checks. You don’t have to respect me… Read more »
I’ve seen some whoppers in my time on this forum, but you take the biscuit
Ok then Joseph. What have you done for king and Country? Because I don’t believe for one second they would let a whopper like you in the Armed Force’s. I served for 14 years in the Royal Navy. What have you done??
“Where else can I push my visions and views of military power for the sake of glory?”
An incel chat room maybe?
DM , eloquent as always. An excellent reply.🙏
See what I mean mate.
Indeed. Mate, my conversations with this guy are at an end, no point.
Yep, utter nut job.
What’s George Parker normally like? he’s having a right old rant at me about Ukraine. Not sure what to make of him.
If I’m thinking of the right poster, he has differing views due to his Cold War experiences which colour his view on Ukraine.
But he’s never shown any disrespect to me personally, so to me, not a Troll.
I’d not seen these exchanges I’ll take a look.
He’s being very polite. Can’t fault that.
He’s a Russian troll.
Morning Danielle. It seems George’s posts have vanished from this thread, so I can’t reply to him. (George if you see this, sorry, pal). Saw last night more money has been released for Tempest, which is positive, but it’s still relatively small change in the grand scheme of things. £650M I think it was.
Morning mate. Yes, I saw that on Twitter. I fear for that program.
There seems to be lots of positive news, but until serious money is committed, it will always have a massive question mark against it. If the technology demonstrator sees the light of day, that will be another major step forward. We haven’t even seen the official RAF requirement for what they want this system to do.
I will be highly surprised if anything comes of that program- there will be some on here in 5 years still grasping at the straws/crumbs but I think the realists will know its all smoke and mirrors way before then. Although some of the content of some posters is questionable some of the sentiment is not. If we look at where the UK is defence wise as a whole surely we have to question UK governments commitment to anything substantial. I dont think we know what we want to be – we most certainly do not provide the monies needed… Read more »
I agree, will be amazed if anything comes from it.
Even if it does, it’ll be in so small numbers it will be bordering on being irrelevant.
He’s trolling. Stick a Russian accent onto his words and hey presto… he’s a Russian troll.
Maybe he is, maybe not. I once said that of another well known Troll in MK, as I like to give the benefit of the doubt, and I was wrong.
My learned friend Airborne is the Troll sniffer in Chief around here, what is his take?
He has 16 ranting posts, getting worse over less than a 24 hour period mate. Certain terminology which isn’t in common usage, and a narrative which is anti UK and NATO allies. Limited knowledge of global politics….he is now on the “watch and shoot” troll monitor 😂👍
😆 Crikey, I’d better look him up.
And now you insult Daniele, a poster who never insults anyone, has vast subject knowledge and is an advocate of a strong, deployable UK military. How sad, as your posts are now appearing as the simple comments of a troll. Why give abuse when none was warranted?
Well said 👍
What we need is escorts capable of ASW. We’re decent on AAW though we do need to see the promised investment in TBMD on T45 and more SAM’s on T31. The purchase of NSM and investment on a new VLS launched SSM with France will return us to being well provided for on ASuW. ASW us a disaster though. The T23/T26 with tails and Merlin’s are fantastic ASW vessels but T45 is less capable than T42 and T31 will be less capable than T23 GP. Add to that the fact that they deploy with the Job Creation Scheme helicopter (Wildcat… Read more »
Got to disagree about our ASW capabilities being a disaster! Certainly we can all probably agree that we could do with more, more of everything really, but the UK has a really good ASW capability. 6/7 SSNs 8 T23/26s 9 P8 MPA 30 Merlin ASW helicopters. People underestimate the ability/capability of the T31 to perform ASW work because it’s fitted with a Diesel propulsion system. Well I’m afraid that’s utter tosh, as a T31 is more than capable of conducting ASW ops if fitted with a TA, just not to the same capability as a T26. But there, it is… Read more »
infact the USN is in the middle of recapitalisation of its TAGOS fleet with an order for 5 new vessels.
GT’s are generally considered less noisy than Diesels.
Its swings and roundabouts really when comparing the two systems. Try standing next to a 747 as it starts taxiing and tell me its quiet, after all, that’s what marine GT are based on? I would hazard a guess and say that a M1 Abrams is far noisier when moving than either a L2 /Chally! Perhaps one of our AI gurus could expand on that? Modern marine Die engines have come a long way in the past 30 years or so. They are no longer the poor cousin in the maritime propulsion world, but are now amongst the world leaders… Read more »
Babcock say that ASW noise reduction of propeller and machinery can be built into the Arrowhead 140 hull. I don’t know whether these features were incorporated into the RN T31.
https://www.arrowhead140.com/modular-system-specific-roles/
TBH, I’m not sure what Noise reduction features are being built in either. It might be that some of the requirements for a ‘quieter’ vessel are designed in from the outset, as long as they remain within the constraints of the overall budget?
Read somewhere but lost the link that the noise reduction would have to be incorporated at build time. No doubt it would push the price up substantially….maybe that’s the issue; you can’t adopt a FFNW strategy to reduce the cost like you can with weapons fit.
Well said mate. Interesting re the T31.
I don’t know why we’re not looking at drone boats for sub hunting. At 50 knots they could sprint like a helicopter then stop and do some pinging with a dipping sonar, then lift it up and repeat some km’s further on. A T31 could have three of them going and keep it’s Wildcat on standby for the rare occasions when an enemy sub is actually nearby. Probably much cheaper to buy and operate then a Merlin and much more 24/7 capable.
Jam tomorrow!!!RN and UK need well equipped hulls now.Desperately need 10 minimum T31s with MK41VLS fitted,at least 2 more T26,minimum 6,better 8 …T83s confirming ASAP,using the T26 hull for 83 will save a fortune.The minhunting drones can be operated from small RFA ships bought for the task off shelf….A decent defensive weapons fit for the 2 carriers is vital,3 aging Phalanx CWIZ not good enough.Fit RAM box launchers x4 as a minimum plus a better point defence gun system.Sadly this Christmas list won’t happen…Not enough crew to man it all anyway
Not enough money to build what you suggest either.
T83 should have a much larger size than T26, or else we won’t get a lot of VLS. Italian DDX looks promising and if we order at least half a dozen it might encourage them to order more than 2.
in a 30 yr plan We should be aspiring to launch:
this is not extravagant, but it does rebalance
the sub & surface combat fleets
Slightly higher build rate needed for T26/83 if we want to increase the fleet at all.
Could you explain the multi mission ship please.
Thinking on this further, I think it’s better to split this into 2 classes of multi mission ship (large/small) class 1 (£125m each) would be something like the Baynunah Class corvette, which at @ 70m long be a good mid level command that offers a lot of capability with a std fit out something like below 40mm gun, 2x Schiebel helicopters and/or 1x H135 helicopter when needed + 16 seaceptor + 4 nsm Class 2 (£50m ea) would be a development of the new XV Blackett class (with a 40mm gun + Schiebel 100) Highly adaptable for numerous tasking c.45m… Read more »
Takes a fool to get us to produce and build a navy got to stop cutting defence
They should have thought of protecting our undersea cables etc before, it’s getting a bit late to build suitable ships they should be a/v now. The RN might plan for them but what can be done about the useless politicians who hold the purse with the required money.
If there is one really sensible bit of OOTB thinking by our MOD it is repurposing the Civilian OSV MV Topaz Tangaroa as the RFA Proteus to do precisely this task.
Why go through all the process to build a purpose built ship when the Oil / Gas / Windfarm and Utility industries have ships designed for very much the same tasks.
And there are lots of them available for far less ££.
Evening @Rodders, think you are being a tad kind to the MOD wrt how useful these two ships are actually going to be. They are certainly better than nothing, but realistically don’t really scratch the surface with what’s required. UK has hundreds and hundreds of miles worth of undersea cables/oil/gas pipelines surrounding our shores within the continental shelf. If we are going to do this properly then I don’t think two re-purposed anything is going to achieve that, don’t you? Believe we need to think further OOTB to be able to protect our underwater infrastructure. Something like dedicated sat surv… Read more »
Tempted to reply morning Del Boy, but my moniker is nothing to do with a BBC comedy. If you read the ideas behind these purchases, they tie in nicely to what the projects need to achieve and at a pace that isn’t hindered by a design, procurement and build process that kicks the ball 5 to 10 years down the road. These purchases allow us to speed up the development and assessment stages so we get to a final solution quickly. RFA Proteus gives us a usable asset ASAP and the tasks she is designed for are not far away… Read more »
Why didn’t they build the required number of carrier escorts at the same time as the carriers, I’m not a military person but it doesn’t take much to work that one out, all they seem to be doing is a lot of talk about increasing the size of the RN while at the same time cutting the number of ships. You couldn’t make it up unless your a politician of course.
We are likely to only deploy one carrier at a time. We currently have 18 escorts, so there should be enough ready and available for one Carrier Task/Strike Group. If there is a shortage we could make up the difference with one or more Commonwealth or NATO escorts.
We don’t have 18 Escorts and what we do have hovers around 4 that are at, or could go to, sea.
I hate really pollie spin and Labour will be as bad as the Cons.
However, our self proclaimed party of defence, aka the Cons, have been appalling.
Thought we had 6 x Type 45s and 12 x Type 23s?
Using the navy’s rule of 3, there should be about 6 DD/FF that could sail on a newly declared operation, say to escort a carrier.
Totally agree that both main parties have presided over cuts to manpower and platform numbers – and not just in recent years. Too often the peace dividend rationale is trotted out, even though the Cold War ended over 30 years ago – or we are told that new platforms are so much more capable so we need fewer of them.
Afternoon Graham, There were 16*T23 3 sold off 2 more have gone Montrose and Monmouthshire (?) Leaving 11 Argyll is dry docked until Year End Iron Duke is prepping for sea Westminster 2024. Northumberland LIFEX, available Richmond LIFEX and PGMU, available. Somerset. LIFEX. Post FOST Sutherland. Back in 2024 Kent prepping for sea pre FOST. Portland On ops St Albans LIFEX reft and PGMU upgrades. Out of dry dock, prepping for sea, pre FOST So, quite a few prepping but pre FOST… And when they do come online have Exercises pencilled in for them. Most need the pgmu programme to… Read more »
Good over view David.
Thank you Daniele.
Thanks David. I had not realised we were down to 11 Type 23s on the books – surprised there has not been a big fuss made about it in Parliament by HCDC & other pro-Defence MPs etc – or by The Sun newspaper!
Our military shipyards have finite capacities, as does the Treasury in paying them. Simultaneous programmes would have required more shipbuilding talent that the UK had at the time.
Defence spending as a share of GDP in the late 1930’s was roughly the same as today. At that time the RN comprised 120.000 Regs and 80,000 Res. Today less than a third of that. Why ? Annual defence cost inflation has been far above general inflation plus economic growth combined. It has for over a century and there is nothing to indicate it will change. That is why the number of ships, tanks, planes etc has declined is declining and will continue to decline for the forseeable future. The only good news is every other military on the planet… Read more »
Yes but it took almost all of Bomber Command flying 1000 aircraft to put a single bomb on a target. Today a single F35 can take out 8 targets solo.
Agreed.
Yep the only comparison you should make is your capability to do what you require in the face of your potential enemies….so we don’t need to have the capability to defeat the PLAN in the south China see..as we will never need to do so…on the other hand we may need to be able to match a Chinese expedition in the BAT. A navy that can deploy one carrier a couple of SSNs 4-5 escorts and a couple of amphibious vessels could never do the former but it can do the later….as for matching the Russian navy…we just actually need… Read more »
Apart from maybe Russia agree with all of that. I think Russia will be sanctioned up to it’s eyeballs long after they’re kicked out of Ukraine. All their branches were massively reliant on old Soviet weapons which in the case of their Army are being used up in Ukraine at a shocking rate. When the war ends they’re going to have to use what little money their shattered economy can find to rebuild their Army. I think their Navy is going to get a smaller share of what a shattered economy can provide. I certainly could be wrong especially if… Read more »
Also ships complements were very high back in the 1930s.
Yep but the ships at least by todays standards were dirt cheap so a bigger share of the service budget could go to manpower.
Wow 24 ships! That’ll show em!
Also haven’t we always had more frigates and destroyers or frigates and destroyers or am my wrong?
Morning Cal. I remember not so long ago when it was said by the RN and politicos that 30 Destroyers/frigates was an absolute minimum! The RN today is developing a fleet of superb quality but in tiny numbers
And yet Japan which is also an island nation has around 120 odd ships.
As stated we are an island nation and you would have thought we would have a strong navy, marine force and air force at least.
New Zealand is also an island nation but the UK has a much larger Navy. Japan has a higher GDP and population so it is obvious they should have a larger Navy. They do not have SSN, carriers or F35B in the same numbers as the RN. But Japan having a large navy is nothing but positive as they are our allies.
Yes, our allies and Vickers were still selling to them in the 1930s…
Taxi!
Good morning and thanks for all these
“ships” articles George! Happy Friday from 🇦🇺 🇬🇧.
Morning Quentin – how are tricks Mate?
Morning Klonkie, happy Friday to you. All good here. Hope the same on NZ. Enjoying my UKDJ read every morning before (and sometimes during) work. Wonder if the RNZN will ever get NSM for the two Anzac’s following the RANs? ☺
Ditto for me re the NSM. Currently, the RNZN has no anti ship missile capability. Im aslo keen as mustard to see if the type31/2 will replace the ANZACs.
Enjoy the weekend Sir!
Hey Klonkie-talking of Frigates-we were down at the club last night having a braai and some old guy was playing music from 70’s including Tully Workshop(Saffer group from those days)-the song ‘Bucaneer’
“But the Royal Navy Frigate came and rescued me at last
She put one across the bow and fired one into the mast..”😀
Hi Geoff , geez I remember that song so well! 1977 I think it was. Trust the braai was lekker!
I’d like to make the crucial point that the ‘Sonar 270’, to be fitted to Type 31 is a Torpedo Countermeasure & not anything to do with Submarine detection, it’s a replacement Nixie. Even the popular but limited Type 21 Amazon class had two Sonars & two triple ASW torpedo launchers & it was sold off because it couldn’t have Towed Array. The Type 31 has No ASW capability, if the Russians or Chinese wanted to sink it, they’d send a Submarine… The First Sea Lord stated ‘the T31 is a low end frigate’. It’s designed to escort tankers &… Read more »
To be fair I don’t think either Poland or Indoneasia intend to operate their 31’s 6,000 plus nm’s from their homebase.
thank you CGH . re your last paragraph, you have my complete agreement.
Send code settings, over? Diky moc.
UK needs more aircraft carriers too.
I think the smart money will be on more of a mix of T26 and T31, but that they wont order more of either until T31 and T26 are a known quantity in terms of EIS issues, performance and mods that the RN would like to make. They’ll probably have this data on the first 26 when Glasgow finishes her first set of trials so likely by next summer more or less and I would imagine we’ll see a top up order of another batch of six around that time which will smartly include headroom so that when inevitably, subsequent… Read more »
We’re getting 8 Frigates and 5 large corvettes….
Great that the Navy are going to get more escorts (from 18 to 24). How has this miracle occured, increasing major platform count by a third?
Has the Navy put some amazing ‘Business/Operational Case’ to SofS/Treasury or are the Tories loved up with the RN, or think we need more naval escorts as a response to a land war in Eastern Europe?
Or is it to keep Scottish yards in work for ‘the foreseeable’ to ward off Scottish Independence talk?
Hi Graham. Neither I think, this goes back to the wish in 2019 to have a bigger escort fleet, though much of that was the usual Boris bluster with no real commitment. 13 T23 ( currently 11 ) replaced by 8 T26 and 5 T31. Plus the existing 6 T45. Takes the RN back to the 19 escorts remaining after the 2010 review when the 4 T22 B3 were cut and 23 became 19. The extra will happen IF, and it is a big IF, the 5 T32 are built or they simply order another 5 T31 as a batch… Read more »
From both sides of the political divide Daniele.
I agree mate.
Hi Daniele, thanks. Normally you need more than ‘a wish’ to massively increase the number of complex, expensive platforms in a particular Service.
Seems like you suspect ‘smoke and mirrors’ at work.
greetings DM. I think the losses in surface units will be worse as the batch 1 Rivers retire in the early ’30s. I imagine the Type 32 programme is likely to be cancelled by a Labour government.
Sorry for the cynicism, but going by history, I cant see this going well.
You may be right, Klonkie. If four Type 31s are sent to replace four B2s and four B2s return to replace three B1s (the plan I often hear touted), we’ll have 8xT26s and 1xT31 doing frigate work, and 4xT31s doing OPV work. In other words we’ll have even fewer available escorts than we have now. We’ll need the Type 32s just to stand still. I still believe we should keep the B2s doing presence work abroad, and buy 4 or 5 used Cape class off the Aussies. They’re only building them as a stopgap until they have enough Arafuras and… Read more »
Dear Graham
6 *45
8 *26
5* 31
Does not make 24 and certainly not in the twenties.
As the 26 comes in, the 23s go out – unless they all get the pgmu on their 1970’s paxman engines they’ll be alongside – VOR to you and me.
So how do we see the 24 figure in the article – it must be 5 x Type 32s as well?
It was a number, iirc, pushed out by Bluffer when he was PM, it was highly misleading as there is no way 5*T32s could be in service by the end of the 20s.
However, as he has subsequently stated (I paraphrase) everyone knows he lies don’t they?
Thanks David. So you doubt the veracity of the 24 escorts target figure?
6*45
5*31
8*26
Does not make 24 Escorts by End 20s
And Ben Wallace, iirc, repeated this fallacy, this object misrepresentation of the truth.
Lab or Con, anyone who undermines or misinforms about our Armed Forces should be reported to the Standards Committee and banned for 10 days, so that a recall vote can be issued.
(Traitors Gate is too good for them).
I’m sure that warding off the SNP threat played a big part. I’m also sure that the link between UK diplomatic influence and the size of the RN was accepted at the highest level. These strategies established commitment and were accompanied by a number of very sensible decisions: the aircraft carrier Alliance, 2 CVF, River 2 x 5, retaining River 1, negotiating, funding and introducing forward basing, T23 midlife, choice of the Arrowhead hull and Babcock for T31, persisting with T45 propulsion issues and Astute and just being frugal e.g. FFBNW, selling a Bay, fewer Point Class. Overall the RN… Read more »
As an ex-army guy I have huge respect and admiration for the RN. They have been on something of a roll since 2017 (the ‘Year of the Navy’), although there are still issues with manpower, hull numbers (attack subs and escorts) and some capability gaps in niche areas. But your list of sensible decisions is impressive.
Very depressing that the army’s senior officers have not been anything like as impressive with their decision making – in fact quite the opposite.
Yes, browsing sites like UKDJ and Navy Lookout you can read folks debating whether to upgrade River 2 to a corvette or a patrol frigate or whether T32 could be built on T31 hull or a new hull. The army would be very happy to be in such a luxurious debating position! One thing worse than taking a bad decision is taking no decision at all or keep changing your mind. You can make most things work if you set your mind to it. That said I do think the army is learning. Buckling down and making Ajax work for… Read more »
I am very impressed that the Navy and the RAF can actually achieve upgrades to in-service kit, be actively planning the next platform (or even cutting metal) and also be thinking about and scoping the one after that.
The army used not (over 20 years ago) to have a problem in regard to delivering upgrades and fielding replacement kit in a timely fashion – but now so many of our AFVs are 35-60 years old and are often little modified!
Given the situation we got ourselves into it was a good decision to rejoin the Boxer program. Seems to be a good if pricey, vehicle but the build rate seems glacial. Once again we are having to rebuild industry skills as we go. We are relying a lot on our competent German friends; the BAE – Rheinmetall partnership. Of course we could ask GD to put the CTA turret on Boxer – speed things up? What do you think 🙂
Boxer always was a good choice to replace Saxon and residual FV430s (ie those not replaced by Warrior in the 80s), as was the original intention, way back. Boxer was a good choice for the infantry of the two medium-weight Strike brigades – since abandoned. Boxer (if not equipped with a beefy stabilised cannon) is a terrible choice to replace Warrior – it would have ben much better to complete the Warrior upgrade programme 9WCSP). Agree that the build rate is glacial – the army needs a swift build programme. I agree that we need to see if the CTA… Read more »
And that’s why the escort fleet is dropping to 17 or 18? HMG badly needs to commit the funding to enable the future fleet to grow to 24 escorts with no further delays. It has been dangerous neglect of duty to allow the fleet to be cut to 19 & even less soon. As the premier European NATO navy & an Island nation critcally dependent on maritime trade with world wide interests we should be the rock against which the rest of NATO maritime security rests & builds upon; not a weak player barely covering the basics. We’d be a… Read more »
Good luck manning them! Everyone is leaving as the Navy is one big joke!
The Royal Navy is one of only two Level 2 bluewater navies in the world, and the second most effective in NATO. I am not seeing the joke.
More boats hopefully little more money, what’s not to like 😁
The UK, Canada, USA, Japan, and Australia, Norway, and the rest of Europe, better get their act together! China and India are monopolizing entities. They invade like a cancer from within, and the west, Europe have fallen behind. Shameful! And America could have so many allies in South America if they actually made alliances to help other countries and a mutual betterment. But few like America and know if too many failures. It acts only in it own interest, and leaves behind havoc. it could have so many friends in central and South America, bring these countries out of poverty… Read more »
Maybe it will be called the Ajax Class?
Pigs might fly. 24 escorts?!!! Meanwhile a perfectly capable frigate is paid off with a replacement years off. How Putin manages to sleep worrying about Britain’s increasing fleet size……
Surely all naval vessels should have 20-30 years life in them, with carriers about 50 years?
I am sure that labour will increase our defence to 3% as we heard in the house of commons asking the present government to stop further cuts and rearm our forces , While we see we are getting more ships at this moment its will require more men/women to man them even with the reduce crews required for turn around etc, And perhaps an increase in the sub branch . as at the moment we have more paid off subs than in service . but we see we are moving towards unmanned platforms with a mother ship as control ship… Read more »