Russia’s Admiral Makarov has been hit by Ukrainian missiles and is currently on fire, according to Ukrainian officials.
The frigate would be Russia’s latest naval loss coming after the Russian cruiser Moskva was sunk by Ukraine weeks ago.
Local media outlets also reported a frigate was burning in the Black Sea near to Snake Island.
“A Russian warship operating in the Black was hit and left burning by a Ukrainian cruise missile, news reports and social media reported on Friday. The UNIAN news agency citing the government social media website Dumska said the vessel was a “Burevestnik” class frigate, at midday located near the island Zmeyny, offshore from the Danube delta.
The usually-reliable Gruz200 military news web platform said a naval source confirmed that a Ukrainian Neptune anti-ship missile struck the vessel. The Dumska statement likewise said a Ukrainian Neptune missile hit the ship, and that “large numbers” of Russian aircraft were circling overhead.”
A maritime ship tracking service showed a Russian rescue ship identified as SPK-46150 en route to the location and FlightRadar24 showed a US Air Force Global Hawk long-range reconnaissance drone over the location at 0500 this morning.
Commissioned in only 2017, the Admiral Makarov is one of Russia’s most modern warships and carries a crew of around 200.
Amphibious Ukranian tractors are on the scene as we speak. 😐
👌
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
LOL, but good news nonetheless. I still think Marte ER fitted to our Typhoons would send Russia and others a very clear message to keep well away from UK waters.
Also already integrated on italian AW101/ merlin so would work well from naval platforms giving them real ability to strike at range.
Absolutely, I’ve posted this a few times on here already and a budget could be found for a small number of missiles.
https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/marte-er/
“MBDA’s Marte Extended Range (ER) anti-ship missile has achieved a significant milestone with the successful completion of the last of three development and qualification firings, the company announced on 14 December.
The final test firing, which was conducted at the Italian test range in Sardinia in late November, paves the way for the missile’s entry into operation early next year, MBDA said.”
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/mbda-marte-er-ready-for-delivery-after-successful-final-test-firing
It’s always seemed madness to only have anti surface missile capability on on type of shipbourne helicopter, doubly so when the mothere ship may have zero AShM itself.
Let’s leave MPs FFBNW a HoP bar etc instead. Most other navies have both ASW & AShMs on the same chopper.
Yes, they look a good choice. A load of 2*3 for each wing looks pretty potent. When is the RAF to get some ASM ability back? And for its P-8s too?
The problem there is Nigel, the MOD will demand that the missile is upgraded to Uk specs, larger warhead, longer range,green rocket motoer, etcc which would drag out the procurement process for at least 10 years
And not forgetting the colour scheme of course 😂
I think that will be easy it will be a Union Jack scheme, the argument will be between whether the Union Jack motif should be visible to the firing aircraft or the target ship. Tough choice that will need at least three committees to decide upon. Keeping otherwise work free lackeys of the ruling class occupied and well paid as usual take priority here.
Carrie, for a fee, could advise on which expensive wallpaper to wrap each missile in.
Yes and it’s a step up from Venom ASHMs on Wildcats and can quickly go places where torpedos can’t go!
Maybe they will able to on the next software upgrade 😂
I thought that the JSM was also being looked at for the Typhoon? And you would think also the P-8s but maybe a LSRAM type missile with longer stand off range would be better? There maybe a need for a mix of types of ASHMs as you can’t keep firing off top tier missiles at every ship that floats or can we? Anyway, I know it’s awful to say it, but I hope 🇺🇦 keeps on keeping on picking off 🇷🇺 boats, ships, subs and anything else that moves! Hope there’s some “miracle of Mariupol” for those trapped Asov fighters… Read more »
Yes, it can, the problem is time to qualify the missile as an interim solution on typhoons where Marte ER already is and for Merlin.
There are plenty of options out there for us, but we need something air-launched now in my opinion!
“Kongsberg plans to add its Joint Strike Missile to the Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jet’s weapons package, the Norway-based missile manufacturer unveiled today at LIMA 2017 exhibition in Langkawi, Malaysia. Preliminary phase has now been launched, Kongsberg said to Air Recognition.”
https://www.airrecognition.com/index.php/archive-world-worldwide-news-air-force-aviation-aerospace-air-military-defence-industry/defense-security-exhibitions-news/air-show-2017/lima-2017-bis/lima-2017-news-coverage-report-bis/3367-kongsberg-s-jsm-missile-to-be-added-to-eurofighter-typhoon-weapons-package.html#:~:text=Kongsberg's%20Joint%20Strike%20Missile%20showcased%20at%20LIMA%202017&text=This%20weapon%20can%20be%20carried,for%20the%20Norwegian%20Armed%20Forces.
Anti missile defence systems aren’t looking so hot as things stand, this ship is equipped on paper to be able to defend itself from such missiles. Time will tell if this one really is sailing home under its own steam.
This video shows how it would be used to defeat defence systems.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjE9aNlmKZc
Off-topic, but I came across this video as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHAHVkPj_eE
😂
That’s brilliant 👍
😁😁👍
Forget MTBs, the MoD needs to invest in more tractors! 😉
Fordson Majors as rank matters.
FFS hilarious……
Brilliant. Russian ship being caught and towed under by a Ukrainian tractor. Send them a few more Norris.
Can I assume that the Russian Black Sea fleet is now going to be destroyed one missile at a time?
This feels like 1982 when the Argentine fleet went back to port.
Good!
There were pictures of a couple of patrol boats or corvettes being hit a few days age and now this.
I make that one amphibious ship, one cruiser, two corvettes and now a modern frigate. The Russian Navy’s losses, although not catastrophic, are starting to mount up.
Cheers CR
Raptor patrol craft
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor-class_patrol_boat
Thanks for the clarification Sean.
Cheers CR
If this is true it will be a major embarrassment for Putin and add to his domestic problems. Unlike Moskva this ship is modern. One of the Russian Navy’s most modern warships. The Admiral class frigates are supposed to be sophisticated stealthy modern warships comparable if not better armed than a type 23 frigate. If this ship is on fire following a Neptune missile strike then it confirms 2 things. 1 Russias air defence SAM systems are rubbish 2. Their CIWS linked to the ships radar suite are useless as not independent mounts, with independent ASAR radar sets. Therefore if… Read more »
😂
Agreed, the Russian tech appears to be pretty poor.
If the Russian’s have tied the CIWS to the main radar system strikes me as a bad system design decision rather than a direct comment on their technology base as they have had access to western digital technology for quite awhile now, for example. This might be down to the lack of funding given the huge spending on nuclear weapons…
Cheers CR
Training training and more training = readiness and then more training, seems lost on the Russians or was it also a dose of complacency mixed into a mix of blunders
“Russias air defence SAM systems are rubbish” I think we were getting an inkling of that already! “Their CIWS linked to the ships radar suite are useless as not independent mounts, with independent ASAR radar sets. Therefore if ships radar suite hasnt detected the threat or response time from detection not quick enough these systems are junk” Getting CIWS to work is non trivial. It took a lot to get Phalanx and Goalkeeper to where they are today. Really it all boils down to a lack of indigenous tech industry. They don’t make silicon chips and they don’t do high… Read more »
Our frigates don’t have phalanx for some odd reason and so their defenses are also reliant on the main radar. Something I don’t get, as the Falklands demonstrated that it wasn’t a good idea to rely only on a single missile platform.
The T23 doesn’t as you rightly say.
T26 does have CIWS and 30mm and T31 uses 57mm/40mm with programmable rounds for CIWS.
On the subject of radars!
Denmark completes first-of-class SM-2 missile firing
06 MAY 2022
Commissioned in 2011, the RDN’s three new Iver Huitfeldt-class frigates were conceived to provide an area anti-air warfare (AAW) capability.
The ships marry a Thales-supplied AAW system – featuring the Active Phased Array Radar (APAR) X-band multifunction radar, Signal Multibeam Acquisition Radar for Tracking, L band (SMART-L) D-band volume search radar, and an associated fire-control cluster – with Terma’s C-Flex combat management system.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/naval-weapons/latest/denmark-completes-first-of-class-sm-2-missile-firing
Yes, this was pretty well advertised.
If only the T31 had VLS……
OK RN uses T45 for AAW and it’s radars are a lot, lot better…..
Is it too late in the day for the T31 to be fitted with them? and if it is possible, how many cells could be included?
Not at all too late.
They were originally FFBNW – as usual.
Should be close to a straight drop in.
Uk already has access to Mk41, and is fitting it to T26, under FMS so it would be a low risk fixed cost upgrade. Not introducing another system.
IH, the base ship, have quite a lot of VLS capacity.
I would *guess* 16-24 VLS? The issue is strike or 2/3 length?
Let’s hope recent events will move things forward, we need as much firepower as possible if only to serve as a deterrent.
The 30mm is useless against anything but patrol craft etc. I’m hoping we will now standardise on 40mm.
How so?
If it is fully networked to the CMS it is pretty effective in a layered defence?
Far too low rate of fire for AA. 200rpm c.f. 600rpm+, often 1,000 rpm+ for most light AA. Makes chances of a hit against fast jets or missiles remote even if trained on target. Proper 30mm+/- AAA can also do anti fast boat & most are able to select short burst, single shots, or slower rate of fire. So our bushmasters are a waste of a weapons station(except for fast boats or helicopters loitering close by) & detract from AA ship defence. That’s my take on it any way. With 40mm being selected for T31s seems RN/MOD are realising that… Read more »
I brought down shellduck with a single barrel 30mm
Glad you bagged it before it launched anti-Tommo missiles!
Nowadays their fully automated gone are the days of going deaf in your left ear or the Belt feed mechanism being blown off by duff munitions O happy days Frank
May be exactly as you say. Could also be Ukraine in posession of necessary countermeasures such as ECM to overcome their ships defences.
Or both!
See above. The AK630 CIWS uses the ships 3D radar to cue the CIWS tracking radar. If the main radar does not detect the threat, the tracking radars will not be cued towards the target. Simples!
Maybe.
I’m aware that is how it is advertised that it works.
I’d be pretty amazed if the degree of automation and integration that we would all expect from T23 onwards was really reflected in this setup.
No , I think you’ll find that the smoke is from the crew having an early victory day celebration barbecue and toasting our great leader Putin !!
Clearly, our lesson from this has to be something along the lines of:- you cannot have too much weapon/sensor/connectivity capability. Certainly when you have few units that are virually all eye-wateringly expensive.
There but by the grace…..
Rgs
The third thing you should have highlighted was their damage control, if they get the fire under control and the ship back into Sevastopol then all well and good. If the crew were trained by the same team that trained those on the Moskva then I think the Ukrainian underwater tractors will have another job to do!
Yes, one might be a mistake but two capital ships does suggest they have a major problem with detection and low level engagement. The Neptune flies at about 5 metres above sea level it now looks like the Russians cannot go that low….
Well until they sink anyway.
It is the clutter, wave top reflections, filtering that becomes an issue. You need pulse Doppler to do that easily rather than crude filters. You can then use a narrow band filter for the Doppler shift(Ed) range so the receiver can be maximised and the digitiser dynamic range filled properly. You can then use DQD at a very high bit depth of 18bits plus and get a really sensitivity and nice clean baseline. The Soviets always struggled with this and tried to get their hands on various bits of NATO tech. Lots of bits of kit were embargoed in the… Read more »
The AK630 CIWS uses its own dedicated continuous wave tracking radar. However for the system to know where to look, the 3D search radar must acquire the target first. The information would then be passed on to the AK630s radar, which then aims the guns. They do have a back up optical mode as well. Being a relatively new ship, I would expect the 3D radar and the tracking radars to be networked together within a combat management system. However, they may still be independent systems, which means they are fallible. The ship’s main air defence system is based on… Read more »
I find it deeply amusing that the Russian Far East fleet is bigging it up with the Japanese, they really should be very careful judging by these standards I dread to think what even a defence minded pacifist Japanese armed force would do to them.
……..the Japanese have some “previous” with the russian navy 🤫
Oh dear, there seems to be a problem with our ships!
Nobody wanted to believe me a few years back when I said, on here, that the construction, therefore damage resistance and damage control was absolutely awful on Russian ships.
@GB said much the same thing too.
Hopefully not too many lives lost in this cruddy tin can. But happy to see her out of the conflict.
Similar opinion to me SB
Also very pleased the ships gone and hopefully all the crew survive
No way we should be hoping any of the scores survived!
these crewmen are guilty of shooting missiles at Ukraine killing god knows how many! You might as well say you hope the crew of a tank survive after being hit.
Id rather hope they survived the tank hit as well, they maybe the enemy but they still bleed red. It’s exactly the same as WWII pilots not killing each other after they baled out. The machine Is the weapon and it is dead. Your also assuming that the Russian forces have free will, they don’t, an order is given and that order is carried out At the end of the day 99% of service personnel worldwide sign to serve their country but when sh*t hits the fan, be it land sea or air they aren’t fighting thinking about “the cause”,… Read more »
Oh come on, this is nothing but British state propaganda designed to deflect away from the poor little englander council election results. The truth of the matter is , the ships crew knowing they had nothing to worry about from the Nazis Ukrainians decided to have a barbecue, a few beers, well actually a lot of beers in which to blow off a lot of steam, Russian Rear admiral “Put it in “ has gone public and stated that the ship in question is actually in port and the rumours of it been on fire are nothing more than lies.
Tick tock John! We haven’t got all day!
At this rate they had better make the home port Atlantis👍
You would think after the Moskva, the Russian Navy would stay away, or does the dear leader Putin need a victory for the ninth & does not care how many sailors he loses to get it?
Could it be that like the RN in the Falklands, the Russians are operating a picket ship closer to the Ukrainian coast than it’s main fleet to act as early warning and air-defence against missiles and aircraft?
This ship having taken over the role that the Mockva was previously fulfilling?
If you position a picket ship youd better make sure its alive to the threat and capable of defending itself. Seems this frigate failed on both counts.
Crucislly these vessels eg <5000 tons are all Rusdia can construct now. They are embargoed from receiving new maritime engines from their main supplier…yes youve guessed it Ukraine.
So only smaller power plants available limiting size of warships that can be constructed (no Moskva replacement due anytime soon) and limiting power production for high powered sensors and weapons.
2014 was a catastrophe for Russian arms and arms exports.
My guess is that they have been stripping parts from active aircraft and tanks to keep exporting and supporting them.
Coupled with the kleptocratic tendencies this has really hollowed things out massively.
Yes, I was just reading about that. That’s really incredible – a country like Russia with its naval legacy and ambition is no longer able to construct major warships over 5000 tons.
It demonstrates clearly that Russia has not diversified industrially or built industrial capability and seems to be totally reliant on oil and gas exports. Never mind dreams of rebuilding the Soviet Empire, this must be the biggest failure of the Putin regime.
Stuggling to think of any time when Russian naval legacy has come out triumphant in a conflict. Had a great fleet in being, of course.
Rgs
Well this ship and the Mockva are supposed to be able to provide area air-defence. Which means either the Russia navy is as badly trained as their army, or their air-defences are no way near as good as what they thought.
Yep. It will be interesting in years to come to read what actually went wrong. But either way it seems russian capability is being exposed bit by bit during this war. It seems other than artillery all their tech is non functional at best.
Area Air Defence is a hard to do.
CIWS is also pretty hard to do.
Networked CIWS integrated with area is even harder to do because it all has to be fully automated otherwise it isn’t fast enough.
Hard to do usually means expensive…
People often rave about the huge amount of offensive weaponry on Russian ships compared to RN, but maybe this is because they’ve spent their money on offensive capabilities and neglected other capabilities such as defence, damage-control, fire-suppression, system-redundancy, etc…?
Russian ships often have multiple layers of defence… so they do spend money on it but it looks like it does not work well.
Yet would appear that breaking up is not hard to do, if you’re made in Russia. 😐
From what I’ve read I think this ship constitutes a key part of Russia’s main (i.e. Black Sea) surface fleet. Other major ships include the 2 remaining Admiral Grigorovich class frigates: Admiral Grigorovich and Admiral Essen and 2 Krivak class frigates Pytlivyy and Ladny. Although 1 frigate may be in the Med(?). The remainder of the fleet is 20 corvettes, plus anti-mine and amphibious ships.
And the Essen was previously hit and damaged by the Ukrainians, though no idea as to what extent.
Yes you’re right Sean, I recall that now.
But seems there has been little subsequent mention of the incident.
Yes I was wondering about that, was wondering if it wasn’t actually hit considering the lack of confirmation though the Ukrainians seemed convinced at the time.
The question is why do they need to? The Russian air force have the Mainstay AEW aircraft, supposedly equivalent to a E3 Sentry. This should have the ability to see Neptune missiles etc. It might struggle detecting drones like a TB2. Why are they not flying over the eastern side of the Black Sea? They would be able to watch Ukraine’s coast line from there.
Maybe ECM by NATO or they’re worried about Ukrainian air-defences. The Russian air-force rarely ventures beyond the front-line on the ground and they launch their cruise missiles into north and western Ukraine from over the Azov and Black Sea.
From what I read it was most likely protecting the supply channel to Snake Island. Not a good advert though that it can’t it seems protect even itself.
In the Falklands we had no AEW, hence picket ships for radar warning of incoming attacks. The Russians should have plenty of AEW assets easily within operational range. Unless possibly their radars are being jammed/spooked or the like by ECM.
Well it would be one way that NATO could be assisting in addition to providing surveillance intelligence.
Or maybe it’s enough that the Russians think that NATO might do this that means they then feel the need for a picket ship.
Or just don’t work very well plus being operated by not very good teams?
Oh No! Anyway
Seems to be a very shallow learning curve with these clowns.
Who wants to bet she was struck due to utter complacency and a lack of defensive countermeasures and will either be completely gutted by fire or sink because of terrible damage control or the crew scarpering completely leaving her to her doom!
“Seems to be a very shallow learning curve with these clowns.”
Should that be that the draught of Russian warships attacked by Ukraine is very shallow and tends towards zero?
Finding out the hard way that their shipborne AAW is utter garbage!
Is this defo confirmed yet?
The Twitter sources I follow were casting doubt on it earlier.
Footage of the ship apparently sorry I’m rubbish with Links
Filmed by tb2 ,again I don’t know if this is genuine
Surely the case for our ships needing modern anti ship missiles urgently is getting too hard to ignore. The cost is worth paying to correct the mistake of even contemplating running a blue water navy without them
I’d say the case was being made to simply update Harpoon to the latest standard and retain until FC/ASW arrives. The Neptune missile is after all their version of it and seems rather useful, certainly against Russian ships.
RAF Typhoon and F35.
The main AS weapon carriers are aircraft and submarines.
ASM on ships a nice to have but I’d prioritise air launched.
Agreed. I’d add the UK’s P8 to that. LRASM should be integrated onto P8 sometime around mid-decade. The RAF could dip into US stocks if absolutely needed in the unlikely event of Russia’s surface fleet coming south in a hot war … or anywhere else where the UK’s P8 operates in conjunction with the US. Then integrate FC/ASW to F35 and Typhoon.
If the enemies ships are close enough to be hit by our anti-ship missiles then they’re close enough to hit our ships with theirs. Submarines and aircraft should be our primary defence against enemy ships, with ship-borne anti-ship missiles or main-gun being the last line of defence. Priorities.
Think the RN are on to it:-
https://www.forces.net/services/navy/first-sea-lord-lot-work-do-tackle-gender-equality-navy
Oh well.
This is really going to put a downer on their May 9th celebrations. I can just see the scowl on Putins face on Mondays parade as he presides over his ever decreasing military.
Certainly going to be difficult to ignore this one!
Will be interesting to see what they field for the parade. A major show of quality hardware is going to be a drain on their resources for the campaign in the Ukraine. In theory they have vast reserves, but given the state of some of the stuff they fielded in Ukraine, you have to wonder how much of that reserve is serviceable…
I think the smelly brown stuff is going to be hitting the fan right now. Whats the betting their senior navel man of the Black Sea fleet is gone by the end of play today?
Adml Igor Osipov and deputy Adml Denis Berezovsky (who ironically used to be the commander of the Ukrainian navy) bet their P45s are in the post.
Only if this happened on the 9th could this be worse timing for Putin, he will be livid. 😆
Presumably there’s an operational reason why his admirals feel they need to have a ship near Snake Island – both the Mockva and Admiral Makarov appear to have been in the area. But it obviously leaves them vulnerable to land-launched missiles.
I don’t believe the Ukrainians are disposing of Russian admirals at the same rate as they are Russian generals, so there’s probably lots of replacements for Putin to pick from. 🤷🏻♂️
Only need to get reserve stuff running & polished up for the parade.
Last thing that’s going to be allowed is the embarrassment of any of that gear breaking down during the parade, the person responsible will be straight to the gulag. They never lived down the breakdown of the Armata on its debut.
No they’ll want to use gear they know is working, and not just hastily pulled out of storage and hastily serviced.
Well if recent history is any guide, there will be a giant table to keep everyone well away from Putin on the viewing stand!
Would hope Ukraine still has plans to join the celebrations with another rocket display.
Ooo! ….. Aah!
Absolutely, stick some fireworks up Putins backside, light the blue touch paper and withdraw.
Would be nice to think Ukraine has been saving some cruise missiles for such a mission… But Moscow supposedly has the most formidable air defences of an city…
Not Moscow! another navel chip for frying, perhaps. Or that juicy bridge just asking for a slap.
Cheers
It would be a beautiful sight to watch the Kersch Bridge fall into the sea in pieces. A huge symbolic blow, great propaganda victory, major logistics pain, and billions to repair.
It has got to be up there. Shortlisted, surely? Not necessarily for the celebrations, of course.
Rgs
He only has to say it wasn’t Ukrainian missiles at all; it was sunk by overloading of the washing machines and TV’s “borrowed” from Ukraine. In an effort to save the ship, the captain ordered that they will throw overboard the weapon systems. Failing that, some of the crew!
Things aren’t looking good for Putin and his big announcement on May the 9th. 😂
Those aren’t fires, they’re the exhausts of the giant lift-fans aboard the Admiral Makarov that allow it to be the world’s first flying frigate…
I bet Putin’s doing a flying frigate presently.
I would think that there are s lot of RN officer types thinking very hard about this…
Very tragic for the individuals, but another significant blow by Ukraine, it’s not going to end the war, but it shows the Russian navy can’t really operate safely on the cost of Ukraine. Its also highlighting the real weakness of the Russian navy.Although this ship represents 20% of Russia’s modern frigate fleet you really need to take modern with a very big pinch of salt. What most people don’t really dig into with the russia fleet are the design pedigrees. Many of these “Modern” frigates and SSNs are dusted off Soviet design projects. This ship is a classic example, a… Read more »
Great explanation mate. And something very few take note of, when all they assume is every Russian warship is fitted with way more weapons than a RN escort. The survivability of our escorts is on another level, not just with our systems, but the construction, damage control, and the quality of crew training. These Neptune missiles are proving affective, probably because sombody else 🇺🇲 is helping with the intelligence, tracking and targeting, which is the difficult part when firing anti ship missiles..
As Admiral Beatty said at Jutland “there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today” With the Essen reportedly damaged earlier and now this. India bought 2 of these recently and must be looking at all its Russian weapons and wondering if they can part exchange for some second hand western stuff that actually works in a combat situation.
Damn, I was just getting over Jutland when you had to bring it up. Jellicoe man meself, cannot abide Beatty.
Yeah what was wrong was the stupid policy of prioritising firing speed over any basic concern for safety precautions in the handling of munitions. Yeah does sound familiar thinking about it.
Sad but Russia must be shown it can’t invade, murder, kidnap & torture with impunity.
We must not give up AShMs for our own escorts or aircraft, nor decent calibre guns for NGS. Where AShMs are unlikely to be encountered or can be countered the capability to provide effective NGS can be a game changer. 57mm doesn’t have the range or hitting power.
I think the success the Ukrainians are having with land-launched anti-ship missiles is going to make most navies not want to ever consider providing NGS except under the most desperate circumstances. Air-assets will be used instead.
Exactly. I have never seen the sense in standing a few miles offshore bombarding something with a gun. Too close…too close to avoid …for instance someone firing an MLRS at the destroyer/frigate.. or even anti tank weapons, let alone a 155mm SPG.
AA
The Zumwalts thought they had it cracked, but that didn’t’t pan out either.
They will work out as they will be fitted with new Hypersonic missiles.
Sadly not with AGS/150km shells, of course. Still see a place for cannon & extended range guided shells in the longer term, mind.
Quite apart from any other consideration, this targeting sure confounds any Razza idea of a beachhead assault on Odessa.
Boosted rounds in a 5” do have quite some range…..
How effective would Neptune be against RN counter measures.
You’re still exposing a £1billion warship with hundreds of crew to anti-ship missiles to drop 5” shells when a £10 million fighter or potentially a drone could do the job…
I agree.
But missiles are limited in number compared to shells.
OK a 4.5” fires 500 rounds before it is worn out.
Max VLS size is going to be 48 land attack missiles with rest for other functions.
So yes missiles to soften up before coast in Controlled but NGS probably has to be a thing. Hence why I keep saying T31/32 needs a bigger gun.
Land attack missiles are for taking out specific identified targets. We are all about targeted strikes now, rather than Russian style ‘blast an area and hope you hit some enemy and sod the collateral damage’ approach which they used in Chechnya, Syria, Ukraine… The US Navy appears to have abandoned NGS too, curtailing the Zumwalt builds and planning on removing the guns from the 3 built. Their new frigates are also being built with 57mm as the main gun too. While support with be given to troops ashore, it will be via air-assets – jets, helicopters and drones. And it… Read more »
US report not long ago admitted that their littoral designs would have no chance of defending themselves as designed operating as planned and would at best have to be protected by other vessels. Totally unsustainable concept.
Let’s hope RN MOD designers take note too.
Yes you probably want your NGS on a platform that is not so critical as a specialist AAW Destroyer or ASW frigate. If we cannot afford more 5in gun systems, I would prefer to see them moved from the T26 to the T31. The T26 is a very high end escort for war wining or losing assets and should be focused on that. The T31 is the more jack of all trades that is not need to be escorting carriers, stores ships or amphibious groups. The replacement of a 5inch gun to a 57mm on a T26 will not impact… Read more »
I suspect the reason we see a 5″ gun on the T26 has more to do with the BAES Kingfisher ASW program and perhaps also leveraging the US MAD-FIRES 57mm development onto the 5″ calibre. Which is why it should stay where it is, particularly at $60M a pop.
Worth taking a gander at the BAES vision/concept in the two videos at the bottom of the following link to see how this concept works in layered ASW defence.
https://www.baesystems.com/en-uk/productfamily/underwater-weapons
I will have look cheers.
Morning @GHF, the reason T26 has a 5″ gun dates back to the days of FCS, when the Navy wanted to replace the 13 T23s with 13 T26s, (8xASW and 5xGP), hence the 5″ gun.
Obviously we couldn’t afford 13 T26 frigates, so got 8 and then 5xT31’s, but the gun stayed on the T26’s. Arguably it is a better fit for the T31, and the 57mm better suited to the T26, as I just can’t see it doing NGS!!! Whether Kingfisher ever comes to fruition is anyone’s guess,!!
Hi Deep. Thanks for the correction since certainly the decision was taken long before the programs I mentioned were a gleam in any ones eyes. I should have said “… still see a 5″ on the T26″. I agree that if we do not see innovations like Kingfisher and MAD-FIRES develop for the 5″, then we should only be fitting the 57mm. I’ve been making arguments against any ships doing NGS for some time, but it just won’t die as a concept for some. The risk versus reward of using a T26/T45/T83 for NGS is on a whole other level… Read more »
“ The T31 is the more jack of all trades that is not need to be escorting carriers, stores ships or amphibious groups.”
TBH I would see rear area escort as a key function of the T31?
I don’t understand why so many people on here talk about throwing rounds around Russian style. RN NGS in 82 was very much key to RM morale. It was and is very, very accurate.
Also with it mission bays, it can undertake a lot of activities in the littoral. Big ship, reasonable weapon fit, lots of configurable space. It’s essentially a sort of middle ground between the black swan concept ( which was way to out there for the time) and traditional escort. But I do see the T31 and T32 ships becoming the frigates that do all the littoral tasking, NGS, strike, supporting/escorting amphibious units closer in shore working as escorts in congested/restricted seas, autonomous systems mother ship etc So all the stuff that effectively you don’t want your very high end AAW… Read more »
All true.
Also worth thinking about sensor and weapons fusion.
So thinking about AAW as a single vessel tasking may be a mistake? Certainly missiles will be carried and launched by a variety of platforms?
Yes in the end the very high end assets with all the Specialist computing power, key sensors and clever people with the skills become more of a key decision making node. Far better to have your sensors and weapons distributed and close to the threat and your core ASW or AAW nodes ( T26, T45 Well away from the threat). Especially as the RN starts to really lean in and deploys lots of autonomous assets as sensors and weapon deployment platforms. It’s very likely these will become the key attrition assets. These networks will probably utterly dominate warfare in the… Read more »
Quantum still has to reliably travel, somehow, from A->B.
The effectors are still required.
The defences against the effectors are still highly relevant.
Oh, and the sensors are still important.
Yes, quantum does, in principle, offer a more secure comms. But if you don’t have the other bits, or they are not up to snuff, then you don’t have a lot more.
That’s the real key, quantum coms is actually more limited through a fibre cable, with loss of spatial cohesion after a few miles of cable. But free space ( through air) has far greater potential ( although it requires satellite relay). There is a lot of work going on at present around maintaining spatial coherence especially through the air water interface. It’s true about the sensors and effectors, but with a networked system that secure comms that cannot be hacked or prevented is still fundamentally a game changer. It will allow communication and data transfer without broadcasting. But it will… Read more »
In peacetime, with so few escorts to call upon for any task, you may just about get away with T31s kept to the lesser tasks the spin justifies them with. But in war with losses, repairs, ore commitments than ships to fullfill them etc we’re quite likely to end up with using T31s for task force or CSG escort as nothing else may be available. Get escort numbers up to 30 & then it might be feisible, but I think we’re taking huge reckless risks. Any enemy won’t lay off just because we’ve deluded ourselves we’d never need to put… Read more »
Totally agree with the general premise.
Still undecided about T31 at present due to it’s stated forward presence role, for which the 57/40s possibly strike the right balance. However, convinced its role will have to change as international events deteriorate, becoming more task force orientated. which it can easily accommodate. The end of this video will interest you, no doubt:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vLzrI0yOh60&t=608s
Sooner see the Batch 2 Rivers maintain their current role, which they seem to be carrying out effectively, in lieu of T31s, as it happens. They have their own up armed potential as patrol corvettes, in any case.
Rgs
In addition to Sean’s points, we should question exactly what value “softening up” a target with NGS has? Time after time we have been shown that dropping far greater quantities of artillery and bomb ordnance than a warship could deliver on locations doesn’t readily achieve desired results.
Ask any of RM from Corporate.
We should be careful about taking one experience and extrapolating that more broadly. If we are dealing with urban or metro areas then examples like Mosul, cities in Syria or recent examples like Kharkiv and even Mariupol can take a huge amount of ordnance to suppress or overcome fighters, assuming that is even achieved.
If we are looking at softening up with precision targeting then we have better tools for that today and will have even better tools for that tomorrow without risking a ship to deliver them.
Please let the MOD know where thay can get fighters for £10m. In 1985 Typhoons where £28m each. I understand your arguement but there are times & situations when all we have is a warship, if the risks aren’t too great.
Well there’s this bloke down the pub… 😉
My bad, should have been £100m, including the cost of munitions for a high-end jet.
If their are times when all that is available is a warship then somebody has screwed up badly in the planning. Even then the warship probably has better options; ship-borne, helicopter and drone launched missiles.
I thought we help out with the Neptune’s development so could be quite effective
We probably did.
Again I’m sure we made it good enough to deal with Russian junk which is what the Ukrainians wanted.
And Neptune appears to do the job very well.
Got to be pragmatic about these things in war if it works it works. Is it good enough for RN use: almost certainly not. If it raises Mad Vlad’s blood pressure with a few siblings then job done.
Not very… ASTER 30 has already proven itself against mach 2.5 sea skimming missiles. So a Neptune should be stopped at range. Them there is Phalanx and modern countermeasures. Sea Ceptor on Type 23 frigates (also on T45s eventually), is very modern and capable and can kill targets the size of a tennis ball traveling at supersonic spreads….
Yes, sure we have all these fantastic systems. Which is great.
What I am saying is that Neptune is quite good enough to deal with Russian ships. The Russian ships are not M2.5 or the size of a tennis ball…
UK’s ‘The Sun’ tabloid has video purporting to be of the Admiral Makarov on fire and listing
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18480406/putin-flagship-makarov-fire-neptune-missile-snake-island/
Interesting video, you can see the ship is on fire forrard but the main masthead radar is still turning. The proof of the pudding here is whether they can get the fire under control before the ammunition in the VL cells cooks off. If they can, fine, if not it’s another sunk ship. Even if they get her back to Sevastopol she is going to be out of the fight for some time.
I wonder what bull-shit the Russian propaganda machine will come out with to explain this one to the Russian masses.
I hope the Ukrainians manage to sink every Russian ship in the Black sea!!
They do come up with some ludicrous reasoning, im sure some ex Daily Fail writers have been hired to concoct the crap they come out with.
As the US keep saying, “We supply the intelingence and the Ukrainians do what they want with it”. Makes me smile.
Given the perception that the West has overestimated Russian Army and naval capabilities, the elephant in the room is what is the state of their nuclear forces? The U.S. is spending $60 billion a year maintaining and modernizing its nuclear arsenal in the 2020s. Has Russia maintained its entire arsenal? Are Russian nuclear forces plagued by the same issues that haunt their conventional ones? I’m certainly not advocating anything dangerous but these are interesting questions.
Well given a failure rate of up to 50% of their cruise missiles on some days, you’d have to wonder how many ICBMs would actually launch, not get lost, and actually denote… NOT that I want to find out.
(I believe the American and Russian approaches have been different. The USA keeps the same missiles, doing incremental upgrades, until they are no-longer fit for purpose and then introducing new ones – hence the figure you quoted. The Russians supposedly do less upgrades and just introduce new missiles more frequently.)
It’s certainly amusing last few days how when the Russians claimed to have targeted Western weapon/munition storage facilities in Ukraine that the very dismissive US response was that the Russian missiles weren’t quite as precision a weapon as they seem to think they are and that no weapons have as far as they are aware so far been lost to them. True or not the sarcasm comes through loud and clear.
Very interesting analysis published on USNI claiming Moskva didn’t have its radars activated when hit by the Ukranian missiles.
Warship Moskva was Blind to Ukrainian Missile Attack, Analysis Shows – USNI News
I think they got that half right. I stated this just after the photos were released. The main surface to air system is based on the S300. This uses a combination of command guidance and semi-active radar homing (SARH). The main tracking radar is the big dustbin looking thing above the hangar. However, it is a continuous wave radar, therefore it cannot be used for target searching or identification. It must rely on the ship’s 3D search radars for it to cue the tracking radar towards the target. Its only purpose is to illuminate the target, so the missiles can… Read more »
Sounds very similar to the system we had in the County Class DLG’s. Surveillance was by the 965 and initial target tracking was from 992, sband and relatively high data rate. The target was then illuminated by the 901, the big circular radar above the flight deck, and the Seaslug missile then rode the beam to the target. One target at a time, not great if the target was manoeuvring and a max range of about 20 miles. And it was out of service in the RN by the late 1980’s.
Yep, that’s pretty much it. It changed for the T42s, as these used the two Type 909 GWS30. The GWS30 was purely a illumination radar for the Sea Dart’s semi-active radar homing to home in on to the reflection. I would also say the T42 has a distinct advantage over the Moskva class. It has two illumination radars, so can provide 360 degree target illumination. The Moskva only has the one radar, so it can’t. The other point is that the ship can only engage the targets that the radar illuminates within the radars field of view. Sea Dart could… Read more »
Nick good old counties 965 single bedstead on leanders Double bedstead on your counties if you felt seasick and the locking bolts were out stand on the 901 platform making sure that it was flashed up 903 for Gun direction 965 went mid eighties with 1022 taking its place on type42s and Bristol
I never felt seasick in a County, and the only time I was ill in a Leander was on passage from Hong Kong to Subic. We had had a month alongside and I reckon I might have been suffering from alcohol withdrawal! Happy days.
Cheers Nick , we had one Lad in roughers could walk straight down the Old Kent Rd main drag on counties ,whilst we bounced of the Bulkheads .Come Flatters we’d walk straight and he would be bouncing of the Bulkheads He had some medical inbalancment issues the Reggies forever thought he’d been on something
It’s actually much more serious. The latest report suggests the Ukrainians sunk the tug. The Ukrainian defence minister said “we have changed the seeker head in the Neptune missile to identify the smallest floating object with the intention of sinking the tugs as these are clearly the most dangerous Russian naval assets”.
This war is all about tugs and tractors 😆
Yes, I think Putin will go crazy if we announce a big tractor delivery to Ukraine.
I believe America is positioning Patriot batteries around John Deere factories as a precaution…
;0) !!!!
Missile or just routine Russkie stupidty, who cares, the dross are burning and yet again the big scary Russian bear is showing itself to be that scraggly, ginger, piss stained alley kit, that is stupidly getting run over by cars on a constant basis.
The ‘bear’ is nothing more than Winnie-the-Pooh. Maybe Baloo at a push, but at least he added comedic value.
Lusty You evidently don’t read the nation favourite paper the Express and their Fatherless Bear Rupert the Bxxxxxxd and his snazzy Scarf better dressed than Putin
Clearly I don’t!
Does he also have a large table? Wait. Lord Sugar has a rather large table on ‘The Apprentice’… maybe there’s a connection!
Lusty Lord Sugar just has a catchphrase “your fired” Putin just Smears his opponents usually either smeared door handle or Underpants his other catchphrase is ” Who would like a cup of Tea “
The best thing for Putin to do on the 9th, is to declare an end to the hostilities and announce that the special operation is a big success. He can at least claim the land bridge. I suspect the Ukrainians will just keep on pushing though until they clear them out.
Flightradar 24 shows one of our RJ’s flying almost overhead around 1pm UTC today in a racetrack. Looks a bit dangerous to my amateur eyes. ZZ665: take a look… https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/zz665#2bc06999
Sorry to pop the bubble but it looks like it is another bit of false Ukrainian propaganda. There is absolutely nothing on it out there other than the initial announcement. Today’s satellite photos are showing no burning or sunk ship in that area. Silence from Ukraine, Russia and NATO speaks volumes. By a remarkable coincidence, just as some other Ukrainian announcements with video have actually been from computer games, there is such a game, with a Grigorovich frigate in it, called ARMA III. File this in the same bin as the Ghost pilot. The Ukrainians did knock out a Tor… Read more »
Wish someone would pop your bubble.
Agree. Seems the video footage shows the wrong air search radar for the class of ship. Odd that Arma3 has the same problem. All a bit suspicious.
Any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Uraine yet?
Airbourne The UN didn’t mention the word War, Invasion, as guess why Russia is a permanent member of the Security Council
The Ukrainians destroyed a Russian landing craft at Snake Island and they reported it with video. Some foreign news sources reported at the same time a large Russian ship was hit. maybe that’s where the confusion comes from? out of interest: the foreign news seemed to be non western and non Ukrainian which first reported!
I report the good and the bad from either side so an update on the Moskva for you. Apparently there has been a leak on Moskva’s Technical readiness report dated in Feb 10th 2022, so it’s pretty recent. She was not only skipping her modernization cycles but was not even in a condition to be out as an AD picket. The S-300FM illuminator had problems, AK-630 had problems, OSA had problems and apparently her MR-800 Air Search Radar interfered with the Satcom antenna. It seems she went to sea on a wish and a prayer and the reason for the arrest… Read more »
So not under tow and all well back to Sevastopol then?..
JIMK wrote:
“I report the good and the bad from either side”
Many in the Military use the adage “ Never bluff a bluffer”
You sir, do just that with virtually the vast majority of your posts, maybe there lies the reason why so many on here have so little time for you and see you as nothing more than a Russian troll.
I hate to say this but there is no confirmation at this time, Saturday am, from either the UK MOD or from the US as to what may have happened to the ship. So JMK is correct so far. I wouldn’t describe his posts as those of a troll, rather they are those of a Russian sympathiser. It is interesting to get another viewpoint on the capabilities of the Soviet armed forces, even if the opinion flies in the face of common sense. I know we shouldn’t describe them as Soviets but it is difficult to see them in any… Read more »
You can take it as a given that numerous – including Russian – intel organisations will be monitoring those who post here. They like fattening their files, its their main job.
Clearly the Admiral Makarov was not hit by a Neptune missile, there isnt enough damage
The drone footage, which is all I have seen so far, showed a large fire forward. Given that most of the ordnance is in front of the bridge there has to be a good chance of something cooking off, however we may see that their damage control is better than that on the late Moskva. And as has been stated above it could be that the whole thing is a set up from a video game. We shall see.
Possibly – Al Jazeera has just reported the Ukraine military claiming the ship has in fact sunk
My ‘gamer’ eye says that it’s from Arma 3. The trouble with the footage (like a good portion of the drone footage we have seen) is that the footage is being filmed using a phone, or some other device. By that I mean.. the drone films it, then someone films the operator’s screen with their own device – similar to some of the ‘leaks’ of the F35 crashes. Some of the images we have seen offer undeniable proof of losses. The drone footage shown on Twitter (if it is drone footage!) needs to be taken with a rather large grain… Read more »
Nick,
My reply to JIMK (To his post regards the sinking of the Moskva) was in respect to him stating
“I report the good and the bad from either side”
Which if cross examined amongst his posts comes out as a lie.
Too true.
I would, read his previous posts over the last 3 months mate. Absolute troll type behaviour, and loo at a few other avatars and accounts, same style, acronims (same errors), same agenda, etc etc easy to spot with a little bit of time. And, biq question, why does he not answer my continued question of condeming Putins illegal invasion of Russia. He is deffo a sympathiser but there is so much more to his account than the simple act of being a sad loser who sympathisies with Putin. Cheers.
So it’s not at the bottom of the Black Sea then?
I don’t suppose you would like to put the ‘leaked report’ up on here then?
Does your int. come from the same source that stated Western reports were false and that the Moskva was safely under tow before being securely alongside at Sevastopol (without a single casualty) ?
So what we can extrapolate from that report is non functioning junk installed on an obsolete barge, , commanded by incompetent leaders.
Just like the rest of the Russian military.
And? Russians are provong not only to be completley shite at their supposed day job of soldiering, but also top of the range as bent and corrupt military spare part dealers. No excuses for them, they are shit and amateurs at every single level. And any condemnation of Putins illegal invasion of Ukraine?
We complain about our MOD, but I suspect their MOD has gold toilet seats!
With gold leaf shit role afforded by selling modern tyres and wheel nuts and replacing them with Chinese eBay specials, or old 1970s spares! Absolute corruption at every incompetent level mate!
they didn’t learn anything from reading reports on HMS Sheffield in the Falklands then … “ apparently her MR-800 Air Search Radar interfered with the Satcom antenna.“
This is a photo of a submarine, I think. Not a frigate.
Good.
One can’t find hatred for the conscript sailors, however, every Russian ship needs to get the good news.
For those RusMil at Bucha, borrowed time people… you can run but…
Nothing on BBC or Sky News about this and most other sources say it hasn’t been verified. Is it just difficult to corroborate?
On May 9, Vladimir Putin will declare the Black Sea as a national cemetery.
Let me Guess this time there was a small fire in the ships laundry due too an Iron being left on which triggered an explosion in one the magazines but everything is under control their heroic lookouts definitely didn’t see a missile the Laundry will have too be washed again due too slight smoke damage
The idea that could easily destroy a Russian warship is: low air penetration with drones (within three to five meters above sea level) and jamming interference within a mile or two of the Russian warships, or just pestering around with multiple drones. And with the final cruise missile, bang! Or you could just mount a drone with a missile capable of hitting more than 2 kilometers and hit it with a drone. I think the Russian warship, the dead zone of the radar, is not up to modern standards, even the ciws are not up to modern standards. At least… Read more »
This has not yet been confirmed and there is speculation that it might be a fake.
Russian Navy going to have more ship Captain firings than the USN. lol
Just watched a YouTube video of a LCVP alongside at the now Famoue Snake Island Jetty being taken out by a Ukrainian Drone anymore on that the Video ? caption didn’t say simulation as quite a few have unless someone phone footaged it from a Gaming monitor
As a matter of interest does the Russian Navy Jack remind you of any other flag?
Alas yes, the other flag, was also a Negative image of the SNPs national flag of Scotland Geoff
Should AFU actually control the air around Snake Island and therefore the sea, anyone else see the Russian occupiers being starved out?
Nice propaganda victory against the Russians and highlighting the impotence of the Russian Navy if it happens.
Thoughts?
still no authentification of this?
According to Wikpedia, “on 7 May an advisor to Office of the President of Ukraine Oleksiy Arestovych said that the report was a ‘misunderstanding’, and that the vessel attacked near Snake Island was actually a Serna-class landing craft,[18] apparently hit by a missile launched by a Baykar Bayraktar TB2 drone.[19]”
(Source listed as “LIGA (in Russian). 7 May 2022″)
So either a mistake or the frigate had been hit, damaged, but escaped. Remarkable so little else published yet.
Cheers
Just looked up the Serna class & it says now on Wiki, “a Serna-class craft docked at Snake Island was destroyed when the island was attacked by a Ukrainian Bayraktar TB2 drone on May 6th, 2022.[2]Oryx identified a 9A331 TLAR (for 9K331 Tor-M1) vehicle on board the landing craft was also destroyed by the drone.[3]”
So the reported hit on the Admiral Makarov seems most likely wrong.
Can anyone confirm if this story is correct and what condition is the ship in?
whats the latest on the makarov fire?
Any more news about the makarov incident?