It has been claimed that a new class of support ships to supply the Royal Navy with ammunition, food and equipment will be built outside the UK.
This hasn’t come as a surprise to anyone in the industry, no UK yard seemingly has the spare capacity to build these vessels given the scale of current and future work such as the fleet of Offshore Patrol Vessels, new nuclear submarines and of course the future Type 26 and Type 31 Frigates.
The support vessels are eligible to be constructed outside the UK as only ‘complex warship’ construction (such as frigates) must stay within UK borders.
Other than procurement activity undertaken during the World Wars, the UK has not had a complex warship built outside of the UK since the start of the 20th century at least. All of the Royal Navy’s new complex warships are being built in UK shipyards and the UK Government remains committed to utilising the strengths of UK industry in this specialist and complex area.
An MoD spokesperson said:
“There will be an international competition to build the ‘Fleet Solid Support’ supply ships, which UK companies will be able to enter, with a separate UK-only competition for customisation work and trials. This approach ensures the best value for money for taxpayers.”
There are not expected to be any UK bids however as no UK companies have expressed any interest.
The UK Government is committed to using the exemption under Article 346 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union to retain an industrial capability in the UK to protect its operational advantage or freedom of action where it is strictly necessary for national security, utilising it for complex warships but not support vessels.
The Strategic Defence and Security Review 2015 confirmed that three new large Military Afloat Reach and Sustainability (MARS) Solid Support Ships would be acquired for the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, to replace the single-hulled RFA Fort Victoria, which entered service in 1994, and RFA Fort Rosalie and RFA Fort Austin (both dating from the late 1970s). The ships are expected to enter service in the mid 2020s.
Four 37,000 tonne Tide class fast fleet tankers (one is pictured above) are currently being built in South Korea by Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering for the Royal Fleet Auxiliary under the first phase of the MARS project. The ships will provide fuel, food, fresh water and other supplies to Royal Navy warships, and are projected to enter service at a rate of about one ship every four or five months from September 2016.
At least the RFA will get some nice shiny new ships delivered in good time
Terrible decision! Has anyone thought that perhaps we ought to build the capacity in our shipyards to build these? Revolutionary thinking I know….
Well, it won’t be Canada, that’s for sure.
I’m guessing the South Koreans will get the job again – either Daewoo or Hyundai.
or they’ll go for a bae botch job again
Why? Pay the money and build it properly here.
Did you read the article? There’s no spare capacity.
Invest in extra capacity
Yes!
This is the problem – investment is long term but governments are inherently short term. So the current Conservative government commits to building a stream of ships for the next 15 years. Then the next Labour government comes in and decides to do something different. Suddenly those millions of pounds of investment are a debt chain hanging round their necks that will drag them under. This is why the low pound is yet to drive an export boom. To export we need to make, so we need plant and equipment – this is expensive and needs financing. The left wingers… Read more »
With what budget? The suggestion that the Korean ships are not built properly is simplistic tosh too.
The Royal Navy ships being built in Korea are way over schedule and have been plagued with problems.
It’s not that easy, Cammell laird only do major refit , Harland and Wolff specialises in the Off shore industry now , Appledore is too small , Swan Hunter doesn’t exist and BAE are already full with Astute,Successor SSBN,OPVs and T26 and possibly the T31 in future.Thst leaves zero capacity and we need these now as the Forts are getting long in the tooth.These new vessels will built on time and on budget if South Korea gets the work
So it stays that way then?
Cammell Laird have just won the Polar ship contract. They do new build. bae have Barrow and Govan that are both capable, but have no ambition in building anything but extremely expensive frigates because they are a crony company.
I’m sure there is a degree of cronyism but all these companies have expensive operating overheads – especially BAE and similar. Such companies have to pay some of the most educated and skilled engineers on the planet to retain their services. Building a support ship will simply not return sufficient profit to cover these overheads and keep the shareholders happy. Then if you DO take on the contract you can no longer bid for the more profitable work you truly need as you’re global experts are designing barges. Low profitability jobs are too risky in a reasonably buoyant market. You… Read more »
1 billion contract for building three solid support ships will. Not looking at BAE in building them, but the more dynamic companies. I think this is old news now anyway. There has been a shift away from this eu policy.
In fact I would like to see BAE let go of Govan (they do not own Govan) and the south Yard at Barrow for more meaningful complex surface shipbuilding. Barrow is difficult as it is owned by BAE and the steel production is used for subs. Also BAE have no intention of seeing shipbuilding grow in Britain.
And none of our design ideas disappear in the manufacturing I suppose
Our designs lost to overseas too. It would destroy me, to see a ship I was principle designer of get built abroad. Most naval architects probably just think it is a just a shame. Pathetic. They’d think differently if they saw their jobs go abroad.
Hi Daniel, South Korean shipbuilding is amongst the finest in the world and is popular globally with all types of customer from merchant fleets to combat fleets.
If we get these vessels at a good price while UK yards are busy with other vessels, we can’t really lose.
Bullshite!
The other vessels are?….
Yes we bloody do! ! billion pounds and no future you idiot!
Yes we bloody do! One billion pounds, jobs created, new blood instead of no future, you idiot!
UK Defence Journal, You take great delight in British shipbuilding being destroyed don’t you?
Of course we lose, these 3 large ships will be invaluable for British shipbuilding, which needs all the help it can get. It is not the Royal Navy’s job to keep foreign shipbuilding alive whilst our own is on its deathbed.
What are you talking about? We’re actively campaigning for this work to stay in the UK.
UK Defence Journal Or we could expand the UK shipbuilding by giving more contracts such as this, and aim to build ships for other countries like South Korea and Germany rather than the other way round.
That, really, is where we cannot lose.
Also it’s all about marginal cost, by building extra docks you increase the cost of production. And then those docks won’t be used after the initial set of Rfa ships are built.
Wrong. It’s the initial spur to create a new modern shipbuilding sector, and those ships would not be the only ones built there, that’s the point. It’s called investment in the longer term!
You are an opinionated and nasty individual. Presumably anyone who disagrees with is a fascist? You talk about the long term but which government has ever planned for the long term. Democracy does not permit it. Governments have to respond to the will of the people and their priorities. We’d all love to see a new and vibrant shipbuilding industry in the UK but investment has to comes from somewhere and a commitment to build needs to be assured by the state. If the two don’t marry up then it is good bye to everything! Our ship yards have learnt… Read more »
When these are finished we can bid on cruise ships like other European countries do.
Half of the old dockyards don’t exist anymore , they’ve been redevelop into trading estates and such forth
Deliberately as part of the war on British industry. Time to start rebuilding.
Sometimes i wonder why i ever bothered to serve my time in a ship yard
Well maybe you shouldn’t have allowed the unions to screw them up and if the British
shipbuilding industry had invested in modernising then we still might have capacity.
^ this.
And the extra money to reopen or build new shipyards for only 3 support vessels is coming from where? Get real people.
Use your head. There are many ship types the UK can be viable in. The 3 ship contract gives confidence in the UK shipbuilder bidding, to invest and compete in future contracts! Many of you sound like cannot doers, and that is why we lose.
A tiny portion of one year’s foreign aid budget? Also we obviously wouldn’t just build these 3 ships, we will have the facilities and experience to bid for more, like cruise ships, like France, Germany and Italy do.
Ben, at a time of increased budget pressure where the MoD are struggling to fund even a first batch of frigates, it may not be the best call to pay for the construction or reopening of yards around the UK to support occasional orders.
There is no long term strategy. If we cannot afford it and build here, have no Navy at all! We do have yards here that could build them now, but bae own them. They are not interested in this, they are not shipbuilders!
UK Defence Journal, I want to move away from a situation where our shipyards would only build for the Royal Navy.
In the long term, having a shipbuilding industry which actively builds warships not just for the UK, but for other countries as well, is only good for our economy and tax receipts. Long term investments bonds are at the lowest level since the Napoleonic wars, and we should be investing in infrastructure to support a potentially prosperous industry.
Ben, the theory of that is great, but there’s no way that a UK shipyard could compete with South Korea on price.
Their wage rates are about the same mate! I think South Korea uses subsidy too.
It would no doubt be a bit cheaper for Canada to have Navy vessels built in Korea too, but they aren’t, they are building every last one of them in Canada. It is more important to keep your own industries alive, your own people in work and have that money spent in your own country.
So let me get this right, the goven yard is under threat because the new frigates are delayed indefinitely, but these contracts are going to S.Korea?
As far as I’ve heard Rod, the only people saying that Govan is under threat is the SNP. Even the unions aren’t saying that. The delay in the Type 26s is only due to the design not being complete.
delayed indefinitely Steve, BAE aren’t going to keep a workforce indefinitely without orders
That would be incredibly silly would it not.
I think Govan are currently building one of the OPVs at the moment though?
Clutching at straws a bit there Steve, how long do you think that will last, OPV’s are small ships, that’s not nearly enough to keep them going.
Did you read the article Rod? There is apparently no spare capacity in UK yards, and no bid from a UK yard is expected.
If the capacity is not there, build it, like other European countries do.
From the Guardian
“In last autumn’s defence review, the government announced that it would order eight frigates instead of the original 13; and there are concerns that promised work on smaller offshore patrol vehicles will not be sufficient to keep the yards’ order books full and maintain the workforce.”
That’s only half the story. The 13 original frigates to be ordered are being replaced by 8 Type 26 frigates PLUS 5 Type 31s – smaller less capable ships more suitable to drug patrols etc.
And that helps the workforce just now how?
I could quote the shadow defence secretary as well who also doesn’t think this enough to stave off job losses, which kinda kiicks your assumption that only the SNP are saying the will lead to job losses into touch.
“The shadow defence secretary, Emily Thornberry, insisted the government must honour its commitments to Glasgow workers. She said: “This would be a hammer blow to the British shipbuilding industry, one that cannot be allowed, so I have immediately written to [defence secretary] Michael Fallon demanding assurances that the Tories will honour the commitments they made to the people of Glasgow.”
Only time will tell Rod. Obviously it wouldn’t be in the MOD’s best interests if yards have to lay off workers and they lose the very skills that they’ll need for the next order.
Daniel Allen – I recall some RN boats built in the UK not so long ago that all had engine issues (and still have), so built in UK does not necessarily mean built properly or better. Engine and system installation and matching is about as basic in shipbuilding as you get, and the UK couldn’t get that fundamental fact right. And have you seen the difference between Korean and UK yards – UK cannot compete. We don’t build enough merchant vessels at competitive prices any more to develop decent yards to keep the work going when not building Grey Funnel… Read more »
If it keep it on time and on budget it need to happen
What a disgrace !
Why?
It’s understood that there are no UK shipyards with the capacity to build these vessels in the time-frame required for the cost required due to the planned work on the frigates.
We have no capacity for these ships. We do not deserve any navy, if that were the case.
Sorry – my above comment should have appeared inder Jim Strachans comment above – sorry
Perhaps the fall in Sterling will make MOD reconsider ordering from a foreign yard.British steel is now a lot cheaper than it was which is why Tata are hanging onto their steelworks in the UKand viewing their options.
It will depend entirely on who bids in the competition – as it should do
That’s fine if sterling stays low but what happens when it starts to appreciate again? Unless the government configures its policies to maintain a competitive exchange rate there is too much risk for private firms to manage. We could part nationalise them and invest in the docks with taxpayer money but without a competitive currency those assets will just become, un-used, rotting liabilities. We are in a catch 22 position. A strong currency benefits the service economy and allows us to import goods cheaply. The poor can eat cheap bread and the financial sector can deal in foreign assets cheaply.… Read more »
What you mean likely they already have been :O
Hi Vinny, these vessels have not yet been built.
Soooooo
“Soooooo” Vinny Bryant, that is a Tide class tanker and not the MARS Solid Support Ship type. It’s okay, no apology needed.
I mean, the article even distinguishes between these types.
Tragic. Lost the industrial base years ago through cutbacks and cost saving, now feeling the pinch when more needed to be built
we lost our ship building industrial base many decades ago as it was so inefficient, strike ridden and poor quality.
Way old news this
Hi Martin, the response quoted in the article was issued today and goes a long way to end the speculation over where the vessels were built.
I appreciate you settling the speculation. The news was old to me so my apologies if my response sounded slightly cheeky. Was not my intent
The Tides are on time and under budget at the moment , the only reason a Tide isn’t in UK waters is that we’re not ready for it yet , because it was built that fast
Haha you really have no idea!!
Obviously more than you
I think Richie has the upper hand in this one…
To be honest I really couldn’t careless
They’ll get built in South Korea on time and on budget , I fed up with constant delays in our shipyards(BAE) so I’m happy with that
The tides are already a year behind
First one should be heading over in a couple of months, well that was what we got told last month. You going on them Richie Mckenty?
Im due to go bring first tide back. soo far a year behind schedule 3 sets of sea trials finding faults still so yeh on time and in budget. You clearly know it all mate 😉
I know enough mate having been in the RN in85/95 but obviously you guys are in the know , enjoy bringing her home
The tides built in Korea are way behind schedule and have been plagued with problems such as wrong wiring, etc.
Shameful.
this kind of thing makes me angry!
Why?
simple only a few years ago they closed portsmouth ship builders. we have the skills so why not reopen it plus there are other ship builder that have closed
Portsmouth ship builders (BAE yards) is busy doing refits on our MCM force
Taken in by BS. The shipyard is doing nothing and niot being used in the VT’s vision, but taken over by a non shipbuilding crony, bae.
Hi Thad, is Portsmouth large enough to build vessels of this scale?
i would not know but it could be extend
Portsmouth Shipbuilders ARE NOT busy doing refits on MCMV that is that is being done by Maritime Services in the empty facilities instead of a dry dock like they used to. Shipbuilding is no more. Please don’t try and make it sound like shipbuilding is busy, when it’s being done by the same people and department that has ALWAYS done it!
Derek Haycock What are you trying to say?
Plus BAE would charge triple
Yawn
And be late with poor quality!
Why could’nt portsmouth dockyard build them. It did build large chunks for the carriers and clearly has the skill base.
Hi Rob, unfortunately Portsmouth isn’t large enough to build these vessels.
Plus it’s busy doing refits on our Minehunters
The refits are nothing to do with shipbuilding that is being done by Maritime Services who have always done them just using the empty shipbuilding facilities instead of the dry docks where they were always done before!
Find ita bit hard to believe that pompey is not large enough. And as for doing a few refits.its got 4 locks and 12 dry docks. I think they could find a space. and if they havent got the man power then recruit. take on apprentices. No wonder we dont build anything any more. no one will try.
They always used to use 8 Dock and 2 basin for Hunt refits Rob!
Derek they have done refits in 12 dock as well.
After spending a few years on the QE project and seeing how much our ship workers sit around doing nothing all day (and night) and then charging top money for this “service” I have no problems with the South Koreans building these vessels.
That’s the fault of management. It’s the jobs of managers to manage! Many people are sponging off these contracts who don’t produce nothing, and if you think you will be out of a job after a contract, that does not help either. It’s been seen as job and it’s over type project. Just piss poor. British industry has to really change. Butr I have heard nightmares about South Korean work practices too.
Remind me. Where did our ship industry go?
Scotland to by votes in their independence referendum!
Deliberately destroyed along with every single other British industry. Time to start rebuilding so we can have even 1 industry in Britain, other European countries have several.
All thanks to thatcher
All thanks to BAE doing no work! Look at QE, T26, T45, the lot! They charge far too much for a system is yes capable but not capable enough for the money being spent on it.
No she sold all us shipbuilders down the river just like are banks rail systems miners etc
The union gangs killed British industry. It was on its feet before she even won an election you fool. Remember British Leyland? The night shift bringing mattresses so they could sleep, then go to their second job in the morning.
The initial message is that the only reason UK jobs are not being used by default is because the UK doesn’t have the resource. But then the article contradicts this message, saying that UK jobs could be used, because they expect UK companies to enter bids, and that if the rest of the world places a cheaper bid, we will cost-save and ignore the UK jobs. Which is true? I suspect the latter. This appears to me as if the government are only interested in cost-saving, and are trying to justify sending UK jobs off-shore with the false premise of… Read more »
Hi Chris, thanks for your comment however you have entirely misunderstood what the author has meant, we at no point claim or imply that the vessels could be built in the UK nor are we responsible for what MoD spokespeople say.
There is no contradiction in the point of the article and it is also not a government publication, cheers.
Outrageous, sort it out Theresa !!
I see no issue with this, the new tide class were built for a lot less than it would have cost if bae had got the job. Tight budgets mean best value for money is needed and the history of ship building in the uk is packed with cost overuns just look at the type 45 and the new carriers.
*cough Type 26 cough*
BLOODY DISGRACE !!!!
The tide vessels are under budget and on time …..says something
A year overdue and rising
First of class, RFA Tidespring was due in Falmouth in spring of this year for fitting of mission equipment. According to marinetraffic.com, she is still languishing in port in South Korea, with just a couple of short trips to sea. So far, I’ve not heard as to whether there are any issues causing the delay or if it’s just financial.
They are not “on time”
Why????
The fact BAE can’t even keep T26, QE class or fishery patrol vessels on time or in budget might have something to do with it. Tide class is ahead of schedule and under budget and its built in South Korea!
The tide class is way behind schedule.
Blame the unions, they were the cause of the demise of UK shipbuilding.
Hopefully people read the article rather than just take the headline an assume things. No capacity in the UK dockyards to build them, nothing to do with price or ability.
shameful
It would have happened anyhow. It’s trying to justify the move taking advantage of cheaper labour. We have already had factories moved abroad to locations not only in the EU but the world. No real change really
Any government that condones this should be thrown out of office… It would seem in there minds it is cheaper to pay people to be unemployed than to give them work…
Well, being an engineer that has to suffer the poor workmanship we currently get from the highly inexperienced British ship repairers, I sure as hell wouldn’t want them building the new ships. They have no experience in building any more, so send the contract to where the experience is. Having seen build pictures of the QE and the shoddy so called craftsmanship on there, I’ll be surprised if they aren’t as badly finished as the overpriced Destroyers that are all requiring new engines. I think we should get them built by a dockyard with experienced and quality workers, send the… Read more »
Agreed, UK shipyards are beyond a joke! They charged £1500 for a 10min inspection of a tube cooler and wanted £10’000 to jet wash the flight deck! You don’t even want to know what goes on behind the scenes! And this is all taxpayers money down the drain!
Don’t like this
At least if the Koreans build them they will be on time and on budget ,given BAE Systems recent record I am surprised the Government bothers .
Not just BAE build ships and who says the last set of ships that went to Korea were on time and within budget
I hope they build steam ships, much cleaner and quieter.
So are sailing ships!
And ?
What most of the comments here are missing is that ship construction, especially for naval supply vessels, is very “lumpy”. You need to build a few at one time, and then none for a long period.
That gives a natural advantage to places like Korea, because they already have the building capacity and plenty of customers. If we invested in new building capacity in the UK, it would be useful for these few ships, but then what?
invest properly then, more ships.
Need to be British
Unions should get involved shameful
Good. Let’s see … 4 Tides built overseas at about £450m. These 3 new ships will be more complicated and with inflation probably £600m if built abroad and twice that if built here. So, build them here or build them overseas and use the £600m saving to build a couple of extra T31s here in the UK. A bit simplistic but if we can get these built at a decent saving and put that saving towards front line stuff then that seems a great outcome.
keep it British !
why????
Absolutely disgraceful..!!
So if the only place big enough in the UK to build these is the clyde, why didn’t they switch the smaller vessel’s to one of the other yards like people had mentioned pompey or Devon. Leaving room on the clyde yard for a new rfa ship to be built? Does anyone know if Chatham is still a ship yard or has that been demolished?
I don’t get the issue. Look at the state of the navy and the constant cuts in hull numbers all caused by overly expensive uk prices. Yes in an ideal world we would build locally but we don’t live in that world and in the real world we have to decide veteeen building local and paying more resulting in reduction in capability of the navy or building aboard and saving money to invest in more hulls. That of course is assuming that there was the option to build local. For me I would have preferred the orignal number of type… Read more »
Read the article people !! They are having to build them abroad because there is no spare capacity in the UK, because we are too busy building Frigates and Patrol ships ! There’s no room left GOOD NEWS !
Too busy is a lie. Find out some facts mate!
Peter Anson, Peter Sabel, Ronnie Serrano, Todd Miller
These could be built in a number of UK yards Liverpool., Belfast and Glasgow to mention a few that have plenty of capacity
Maybe so – but if the companies don’t bid for the contract they will not get the work – simples
They are set impossible entry criteria or in BAE case told not to enter the bid due to their other orders even if they have the capacity
This is political not what is best for Britain or its yards
“Oh but we build the complex ones”
Pfffft
Glasgow? I’m afraid not.
Also, Belfast and Liverpool don’t build commercial ships or even naval vessels of this scale, it’s a non-starter.
You really have not got a clue, have you.
I think you are incorrect about your assumption on Liverpool and Belfast I am sure Belfast has built a lot bigger ships then RFAs even in the last twenty years and Liverpool is now building a polar ice breaker which is not a small ship but again it’s a political decisions to put ship overseas has meant no work for the yards and then they have to contract their operation What about Babcock at Rosyth they have built sections for the Carrier and assembled the carrier one ship goes in March next year and the other in 2018 plenty of… Read more »
Oh Dear.
Joke!!!!
Too be honest I dount we have the capacity to build these now. Glasgow is commited to new builds for thr Navy and Barrow to the Astute class & follow on Trident. Birkenhead may have some capacity but I can see the managements reluctance to reply on MOD work as that was what sank Cammell Lairds in the 1990s. The new Cammell Lairds is doing well for itself in what they do at present. The lastest generation RFA have been built overseas. Maybe coming out of the EU might help as the Govt would then be free if it saw… Read more »
In China?
No.
Surely not.