The Tempest project has been given an “amber/red” rating by the Infrastructure Project Authority, warning more funding is required or their could be a delay in the aircraft entering service.

According to the 2021 Annual Report on the Government Major Projects Portfolio from the Infrastructure and Projects Authority, which can be found here, Tempest is categorised with a level of risk.

Through the Integrated Review of Security, Defence, Development and Foreign Policy the Future Combat Air System received investment for the first 4-years to complete the Concept and Assessment Phase. A phase that will complete an Alternative System Review of the Future Combat Air System including the Core Platform, as well as establishing the international partnerships.

The level of investment was significantly less than required, however it preserves the feasibility of the programme within current parameters, but adds significant overall programme risk, particularly to the assumed date for Initial Operating Capability. The Concept and Assessment Phase will provide the evidence for Programme viability including level of additional investment and/or other options for the provision of Combat Air. Investments and milestones beyond this phase are subject to a margin of error in terms of time, cost and performance that will be refined prior to the next decision gate.”

What does ‘Amber/Red’ mean?

The IPA describe this rating in the following way:

“Successful delivery of the project is in doubt, with major risks or issues apparent in a number of key areas. Urgent action is needed to address these problems and/or assess whether resolution is feasible.”

What is Tempest?

Tempest is the RAF’s next generation combat aircraft, coming into service from 2035 to replace the Typhoon.

CG Image via BAE.

The report goes a bit more in-depth than I just have.:

“Future Combat Air will play a vital role in the United Kingdom’s military strategic capabilities for decades to come, enabling us to defend the United Kingdom, our allies, and make a decisive contribution to global security. The Future Combat Air Systems Programme will design and deliver innovative systems of highly networked crewed and uncrewed air vehicles, sensors and effectors to be able to operate in a range of complex and evolving threat environments and preserve operational advantage for future decades.”

You can read more about plans for Tempest by clicking here.

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Jack
Jack
2 months ago

Everybody saw this one coming. My contempt for this government is growing fast.

expat
expat
2 months ago
Reply to  Jack

So if we’d voted for the alternative where do you think advance fighter jet development would be? Reality is no party if backing defence there no votes in defence.

CAM
CAM
2 months ago
Reply to  expat

They believe in personal freedom much more than the opposition does.

Kirk
Kirk
2 months ago
Reply to  Jack

Blame Brexit. Beyond that UK does not have enough funds to do it alone.

Karl
Karl
2 months ago

Now there’s a surprise. Not.

Jack
Jack
2 months ago
Reply to  Karl

Typical HMG, big talk that amounts to nothing.

Karl
Karl
2 months ago
Reply to  Jack

Exactly, and certain corporations will shout “we need more money”. Ike warned the world about them, he was ignored.

Meirion X
Meirion X
2 months ago
Reply to  Karl

The engineering development will highly likely cost more, even though some of Typhoon tech will be used, integrated into the aircraft.

Andy a
Andy a
2 months ago
Reply to  Jack

Well we are borrowing every week just to keep country going

maurice10
maurice10
2 months ago
Reply to  Andy a

Nothing appears to change when it comes to such projects as Tempest, if it’s reliant on government money. Why do all major UK defence programmes go the same way? Money is tight right now and it will only get worse as COVID aftershocks make an ongoing impact on industry. If tempest survives, it will overrun and cost significantly more than early estimates, just the nature of the beast.

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
2 months ago
Reply to  maurice10

And you can guarantee that there will be endless committees filled by mates of mates, enabled to endlessly examine the issues, the whys the what’s and the wherefores, eventually are many false deadlines, come up with inconclusive 1000 page out of date reports which just delay it further and add to the costs until we are told the program will continue in some form but focus on bringing the technology into other projects rather than that originally envisioned which will no doubt be called the Camel I fear. Which over time Boris and his then current cronies, will sell us… Read more »

maurice10
maurice10
2 months ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

There are familiar elements here, such as TSR2, which became a political hot potato leading to its eventual demise. The internal dogma you describe is so true, no one wants to be ultimately responsible, so the onus of leadership is shared through what is termed, ‘Team players’ thus dissipating the blame for failure. One possible way to develop Tempest would be to pay a company to develop and present to more than one country, an off-the-shelf prototype package. The UK’s current jet trainer was created that way. Admittedly, the cost would be horrendous minus the Whitehall internal cost, which could… Read more »

Tom
Tom
2 months ago
Reply to  Andy a

Yes, the Government is borrowing from the Bank of England, which is wholly owned by… the Government. You call it borrowing, I call it printing money. Which is OK until inflation gets out of hand.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
2 months ago
Reply to  Jack

12Bn spent on this project is far from nothing. The cost cap is to keep it on schedule. Devil is in the detail.

Johan
Johan
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

£12b is nearly 3 weeks budget on the NHS and how many people did that cover compared to the BAEs workforce. ?? who offers better value. BAEs shareholders NOT

Nate M
Nate M
2 months ago
Reply to  Johan

if u haven’t got anything relevant to add to the convo. then don’t even post anything at all.

Nate M
Nate M
2 months ago
Reply to  Jack

or the other option is to not sack them at all even though they were bullying senior civil servant.

Last edited 2 months ago by Nate M
John N
John N
2 months ago

Janes had reported last week that £450 million had been cut from the Tempest program:

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/uk-cuts-gbp370-million-from-tempest-programme

Watcherzero
Watcherzero
2 months ago
Reply to  John N

That article is illuminating in that it says £9.46bn has already been spent on Tempest and the Government has capped the budget at £12.8bn for the first four years which is £486m less than previously allocated.

Thats a really shocking amount of initial spend as people were thinking only £2bn had been allocated and shows a far greater level of support for the programme than previously revealed.

Tony
Tony
2 months ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

More than the 8 T26s isn’t it?!

Mark F
Mark F
2 months ago
Reply to  Tony

Love the humour in you post.

Johan
Johan
2 months ago
Reply to  Tony

Thats so True, T26s will be defending this country before Tempest is more than a cardboard mock up.

Rodd
Rodd
2 months ago
Reply to  Tony

As an aussie i believe you really need another form of spitfire / mosquito. Buy stealth off the shelf, cheaper.
Perhaps the grippen, from all reports a very, very good fighter, easy maintenance and quite cheap bang for your buck.
30 mill each.You blokes could have an awful lot of them for the money already outlayed on the tempest.
Quantity has a quality of its own.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
2 months ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

There is a much bigger commitment to this project than what is bring publicly talked about. 12Bn is a big commitment for it’s current timeline.

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 months ago
Reply to  Watcherzero

I wonder how much Italy and Sweden have invested?

Johan
Johan
2 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

3 volvos and 12 Pizza’s

Daveyb
Daveyb
2 months ago
Reply to  Johan

Ha  😆 

Trevor Holcroft
Trevor Holcroft
2 months ago

Of course the programme needs more funding, it is on going.
The other point is that we have to be assured that industry is capable of carrying put what it says it is capable off .

Why are the usual commentators sneering.

Levi Goldsteinberg
Levi Goldsteinberg
2 months ago

Honestly, totally agree. It would be insane to just pile cash up at BAE’s door. Allocating funding based on deadlines and delivery is the only way to do it

Nate M
Nate M
2 months ago

you have got a point, but the mod really needs to get its act together, first jets operating from runways, next no sonars on the type 31, its depressing really. at this moment its all sounds like a joke. and its not funny.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
2 months ago
Reply to  Nate M

Nothing is a joke. 12Bn is the cost cap of this project for it’s current timeframe. That is a big commitment. The design is next. And Tempest will be a family of systems. The manned aircraft is just part of it.

Nate M
Nate M
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

okay then tell one piece of good news u have heard about the tempest programme. all we know is 12bn £s were spent but on what? a paper Mache prototype and a few flash images?

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago
Reply to  Nate M

Or do some research yourself, your a big boy, grow up a bit, and learn a few facts before adding school boy posts on this site. Google is a fantastic tool. Or buy the key Publishing magazine ‘Typhoon To Tempest ‘ for 114 pages of lovely Tempest developments and technology.

Johan
Johan
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Like you Keyboard Warrior, you think any Tempest info is out there, its going to use the New Radar developed for the Typhoon, out of date kit. will have a Price tag on par with a F22. WORD COUNT JORNOS writing information a school boy could produce.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
2 months ago
Reply to  Johan

So you don’t know anything about Typhoon Mk2 radar then. It will be a special bit of kit, and anything but outdated.

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Hi Robert, you may already know it but if not then Tempest radar will be more advanced than Typhoon Mk2.
https://www.defensenews.com/home/2021/01/15/secrets-of-tempests-ground-breaking-radar-revealed/

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago

Thanks for the link mate, I’ll take a look. I new it wasn’t planned to use Mk2 for Tempest, but haven’t seen much detail on what It potentially will use. Mk2 will transform Typhoon capability though. 👍

the_marquis
the_marquis
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Hi Robert, not sure if you’ve been down Whitehall recently but there’s also a massive banner advert for Tempest by above the escalators in Westminster that even the most sleepy-eyed Treasury wallah couldn’t miss on they way to work. Don’t see that kind of advert in other parts of the country so the intended audience is fairly obvious, and I don’t think it’s the tourists! So clearly the Tempest consortium are taking the whole thing seriously and also understand the importance of winning all of Westminster over to supporting the project through to completion – whether that’s politicians, spads, cabinet,… Read more »

Andy a
Andy a
2 months ago
Reply to  the_marquis

Let’s hope this project is kept in check and doesn’t follow many other defence screw up projects

farouk
farouk
2 months ago

I followed the above link to the Annual Report on Major Projects 2020-21 and the annex has a huge list of all the projects (not just the military) the Government is funding.

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farouk
farouk
2 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Page 2:

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farouk
farouk
2 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Page 3:

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farouk
farouk
2 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Page 4:

Opera Snapshot_2021-07-22_165620_assets.publishing.service.gov.uk.png
Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
2 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Are any of them green? What do the actual colours all mean. I’m colour blind so actually couldn’t see any green. Is that right or just my wonky eyes and brain?
For example spearfish has a red dot. I thought that program has went ok and been delivered?

farouk
farouk
2 months ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

MS wrote:
“What do the actual colours all mean.”


Opera Snapshot_2021-07-22_183338_www.gov.uk.png
farouk
farouk
2 months ago
Reply to  farouk

The actual key:

Opera Snapshot_2021-07-22_183647_assets.publishing.service.gov.uk.png
ChariotRider
ChariotRider
2 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Thanks for this farouk,

Not much if any green on any of the programmes. We have a low tax and in many cases a low wage economy and a big wish list, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.

However, if the Treasury would include the tax return on UK expenditure in their spending assessments then perhaps they would be more willing to fund these projects properly. That might enable UK based businesses to then export stuff on the back of success, which would hopefully be reflected in higher tax returns and wages.

Penny pinching never works.

Cheers CR

David Steeper
David Steeper
2 months ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Treasury has agreed to include economic benefits of domestic procurement in either review or command paper. Quinn confirmed in last Def questions in Parliament. At least for shipbuilding. Future FSS.

Martyn Palmer
Martyn Palmer
2 months ago
Reply to  ChariotRider

Low tax, LOL, that’s a good un

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Thanks farouk. Lots of commitments beyond just shiny toys, Tanks, Ships and Planes.

Steve M
Steve M
2 months ago

£9.6Bn that is nearly another carrier +f-35’s for and couple of escorts!!!

Paul42
Paul42
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve M

Put it this way, it could have been used to speed up and enlarge Type 26 programme, and turn Type 31 into a half decent warship amongst many other things. Tempest is a concept, yes there is a lot of development going on, but at the end of the day, who is going to buy it? Just us? If that were the case, cost per airframe will result in just a couple of squadrons if we’re lucky. When it comes down to it, the majority of customers will be looking for a US 6th Gen aircraft, so why bother?

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul42

The majority of customers may not be given the opportunity to buy a US 6th Gen aircraft. Not everyone even gets access to F-35. If the UK and Italy do nothing more than buy similar quantities of Tempest as they did Typhoon then that’s ~250+ aircraft over program life, similar to Rafale total sales numbers to date. Sweden might also be a customer, but if not then they will probably leverage avionics, radar and engine technologies for their own airframe, helping to share R&D costs. Japan may well license RR engine technologies derived from Tempest for their own fighter, again… Read more »

Andy a
Andy a
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul42

Gb Italy Sweden, Japan may end up developing tech with us that goes into their new plane.
Really to make it viable we need to bring france and Germany on for “son of euro fighter”

nic
nic
2 months ago

I think we would need a another choice of aircraft in case this doesn’t go a head .it’s either that or F35 will have to last even longer.

Karl
Karl
2 months ago
Reply to  nic

Its a never ending system. Perpetuates itself ad infinitum. In The Gan we had multi million pound Tonkas dropping stuff on tribesmen. There were a few calls from some “brass” to use Tucanos, there were plenty of airframes and it would have been cost effective. That aside I think we have reached saturation point with technology, it costs too much. At least the US is being honest about this in ordering more F15’s. Its a bloody merry go round, simply a farce.

Barry Larking
Barry Larking
2 months ago
Reply to  Karl

By preparing for a war no one can fight without damage to national self interests (See 1914) instead of preparing for one we could fight and one we must be prepared fight here at home. Boys in the toy shop whose eyes are bigger than their pocket money. I simply cannot fathom defence spending on advanced projects we either cannot produce in a reasonable time frame or not afford to buy in numbers that are significant.

Peter S
Peter S
2 months ago
Reply to  Barry Larking

Absolutely spot on. If we don’t break the cycle of ever more expensive pieces of equipment in ever smaller numbers, our forces will become too small to have any meaningful capability. Saab Boeing seem to have achieved something with the T7A both in cutting development time and unit costs. Perhaps Sweden’s involvement with Tempest will bring that experience into the project.

expat
expat
2 months ago
Reply to  Peter S

Thats why the USAF set the bar lower for the B21 its seen how asking for the moon on sick impacts programs and results in reduced numbers or cancelled programs.

Daveyb
Daveyb
2 months ago
Reply to  Peter S

Comparing the T7 to a F35 program is moot. The T7 is purely a trainer with the potential for light ground attack and self defence. It is pretty basic aerodynamically and not that far removed from a F5/F20. It has absolutely no concern for a reduced observability or being able to communicate stealthily etc. You can easily design a jet trainer type of aircraft in a year with today’s CFD, analytics and flight simulation. The hard part is the system integration if you want it to do anything complex. If you now include a reduced RCS requirement, it can affect… Read more »

the_marquis
the_marquis
2 months ago
Reply to  Daveyb

Hi Daveyb, is this potentially an area where Saab’s experience with the Gripen could be informative? Specifically the way in which the FCS coding is kept separate from the sensor and weapons code, so an avionics or weapons upgrade/addition doesn’t result in a lengthy flight safety re-certification.

Saab also use a lot of UK products in Gripen so no doubt have a good working relationship with Tempest project participants already which is good.

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 months ago
Reply to  the_marquis

I am ever hopeful.

It is the active electronic countermeasure that the Gripen E/F currently uses that would also be a major benefit for the Tempest program.

Karl
Karl
2 months ago
Reply to  Barry Larking

Think it was Yamamoto who said the Japanese would never invade the US, “there is a gun behind every blade of grass”. Likewise Switzerland with armed citizens. I agree with you, over complex and over expensive. Because “the complex” exists to make profit, and most politicians are stupid, as for “brass”? There again, blinded by science. For home defence, militia is cheap. Air defence, we have adequate aircraft in Typhoon and F35. Ships just seem to be ego trips for a few who binge out on Nelsons reputation ( this site shows that ) Norway, Switzerland, Sweden, all show a… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Karl

Define home defence? As any force without the capability and ability to choose the ground, time and location, for offensive actions will lose every single time. A genuine question, how do you define and equip for home defence? Your thoughts would be interesting, thanks.

Dern
Dern
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Home defence is usually a shotgun or an AR-15. Or maybe a 9mm.

Andy P
Andy P
2 months ago
Reply to  Karl

Not entirely convinced by your logic Karl, the Europeans went through Africa like an exocet because they had guns against spears. Surely the Africans were trying to defend their homes.

I’m not saying that the UK does it all right (we know it doesn’t) but we do need to have skin in the game if we want to have our own defence industry and on the back of that sell lots of stuff to make money.

Barry Larking
Barry Larking
2 months ago
Reply to  Karl

Broadly I agree, partly because I sense we are on the cusp of an entirely new era. A.I. is here. I rather thought Poseidon would be replaced by drones; not Taranis but the much more to me significant Mantis. I think the ‘human in the loop’ will replace the one in the bunk bed. In defence terms the British have lost a sense of their historic past and the 20th century’s wars fought to the finish. We excel in small elite forces used ‘just in time’ and diplomacy, the ability to rally friends and compromise; not very stirring or exciting… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Barry Larking
Andy a
Andy a
2 months ago
Reply to  Karl

“Stop thinking we matter?” What kind of rubbish is this? I usually just ask questions rather than get into arguments on here but what kind of rubbish is this. Like it or not unless u want a world ruled by Russia and China where you won’t be free to post online then we are helping usa police the world, yes we make mistakes but it’s better than alternative, at least we try unlike most of Europe that like a frog would sit in pot of water gradually getting hotter until too late.

Andy a
Andy a
2 months ago
Reply to  Karl

Doing CAS with platform like that is great for afghans but for country that next week could be fighting a peer conflict, we don’t have the cash for a high/low mix in the RAF so the uav swill have to do, other platforms need to be able to fly in peer war

farouk
farouk
2 months ago
Reply to  Karl

Karl wrote:

There were a few calls from some “brass” to use Tucanos, there were plenty of airframes and it would have been cost effective.

The Afghans released a video the otherday of just that:

https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee/status/1416372538293329921?s=20

Nate M
Nate M
2 months ago
Reply to  farouk

seems like they dropped 2 thousand pounders on the first seen
or i could be wrong. either ways seems a bit heavy from a light attack aircraft.

Last edited 2 months ago by Nate M
Karl
Karl
2 months ago
Reply to  farouk

Hilarious.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Karl

Tucanos no chance, wouldn’t have had the time on station, slow reaction and response and limited ordnance depending on location AGL. It’s quite interesting that there were many calls for fast air, to be replace by cheaper options, but might I add, not from the blokes who had to use them for CAS. And tech, yes it’s increasing and improving so fast, that it’s certainly hard, and expensive to keep up, but if your not with the latest tech/assets etc, and unless you can have the numbers and depth the US does, your not really on the game and are… Read more »

Steve
Steve
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

The need is there, and has been highlighted in Iraq/afgan, the UK just doesn’t have anywhere near enough aircrafts to provide CAS when needed. The troops therefore had to rely heavily on the US. Using low cost planes is far from ideal, but it’s a trade off /risk assessment, which is better to risk, a single pilot or a large number of ground troops due to no available CAS.

Last edited 2 months ago by Steve
Jack
Jack
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve

It may be cheaper but i always think of the Jordanian pilot being burned alive in a cage by ISIS. Spend the money and keep our pilots safe.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve

Agreed in regard to enough airframes for a decent level of CAS, and this will not likley change in the near future. However I do think, from experience, that a prop airframe for CAS, in the Afghan situation would not have been the best option. Yes cheaper, less logistic chain etc but the effect for the end user will be the issue. Most of my available assets were US, but the cloggies, French and RAF were also available most times. The problem was whatever asset I would have allocated, if a TIC went of elswhere, then I would (possibly) lose… Read more »

Daveyb
Daveyb
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

For the Afghanis, it probably is the right aircraft. There’s a few other light close air support aircraft on the market, like the Pucara. But all the light CAS aircraft have a similar range and performance. The next step up would be jet trainer aircraft that has a decent light attack option, like the Hawk or M346. The issue here is that they are a big step up in complexity and maintenance compared to a Tucano. Something the Afghanis even with contractor help will struggle with. Mind you the ways things are going, there won’t be any contractors mad enough… Read more »

Tommo
Tommo
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve

CAS or wandering marauders sometimes they are unable or just gung-ho to distinguish Friendlies as was the case OP Granby 1991 Kuwait even with British markings .That’s why we Should be able to conduct our own Close Air Support and not constantly rely on our Allies it pains Me to think we’re forever being psychic up with promises from whichever Party is in power and then the Rug is pulled away with some Lame excuse. And the Boots on the ground or the guys in the Air come off second best .And that’s all I’m saying on the matter

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Tommo

Wandering marauder? One on let me assure you CAS has improved somewhat from then but it’s also a very complicated and technical aspect of OS and mistakes happen, by every country conducting it, it did in Afghanistan and it still will in other areas of conflict.

Daveyb
Daveyb
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

The best asset I used for close air support was the B52. Lots of time on station, with a “never ending” payload. The Apache was great, but was limited by time on station. For fast air you couldn’t beat the A10. It had a decent payload, a decent time on station. oh it also had a gun!

The USAF, have been talking about integrating SDB on the B52, which would be fantastic for a JTAC, as not everything needs a 500 pounder.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Daveyb

Spot on, B52 on station for what could seem ages, and a number of options offered in payload. Apaches, mmmm not a great fan, unless already there, could be quite a while to get overhead, however my best asset, was the 3 x 105mms back at the FOB, with the 81mms……have to give the FOO and the MFC some credit lol. The “re-wired” and close nit FST was the best thing to come out of Afghan in regard to OS thats for sure, however always, always busy!!!!! Cheers mate.

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Yes, it was bonkers having separate bods to doing pretty much the same task.

Steve
Steve
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

A b52 syle plane is a no go for the UK, way too expensive. We kinda need to think out of the box and start realising that a ground support aircraft does not also need to be able to do air-to-air. There was talk a while back about making a gunship version of the A400m, maybe that is an option for medium range stand off attacks without having to spend a futune maintaining a new expensive fighter/bomber. I don’t know what happened to the targetting pods from the harriers/tornadoes but that is a good start if they can be reused… Read more »

Last edited 2 months ago by Steve
DaveyB
DaveyB
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve

I agree a cheaper option would be to use an A400 in much the same role as a USMC C130 Harvest Hawk. However, it removes at least one aircraft from doing it proper job of being a transport. If we are getting rid of the Hercs’, then the A400 will have to take up the slack. Do we have enough A400s to spare?

In a few years time the USAF will be pensioning off the B1s, perhaps we could put a word in?

Tommo
Tommo
2 months ago
Reply to  Daveyb

And what has the RAF got in the box for CAS that has the ability to remain on station have an adequate payload it’s own defensive capability (20mmAden cannon the Late great Harrier) retired before its time

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Tommo

That’s why we all use allies, we use each others strengths to mitigate each others weakness.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
2 months ago
Reply to  Karl

A Tucano would not have had the range, endurance and payload to be affective over vast area’s like Afghan and Syria. Plus the don’t have air to air refueling capability. A complete non starter. CAS is very complex. You definitely want to be in a Typhoon or F15E

Steve
Steve
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Really you want an Warhog. My thinking is modern CAS relies more on guided missiles, which can be fired from high altitudes/distance, well out of range of a lot of manpad / RPG that cause problems for Apache, and anything more advanced is going to cause serious issues to typhoons anyway.

Combine that with relative cheapness of defensive measures, and I wonder if it could work in counter insurgency warfare. Clearly going in for a gun run is a non-starter, as you would need the armor of a A10, but maybe a missile truck.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve

Mate assets could be over 10k AGL dropping paveways, its not all about rockets or guided missiles as any sort of missile, for CAS will have a too small a warhead to be effective. The best rockets we utilised were the RA GMLRS from Bastion. CAS is complicated and the simple expectation of a missile or rocket to be effective does not take into account the numbers and types of targets. In fact a “dumb” inert training bomb, can be used, and was used, to reduce any sort of collateral damage, due simply to the kinetic energy imparted.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve

Enhanced Paveway 4 and Brimstone 2 are perfect for CAS. Extremely accurate, and low collateral when you need it.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Spot on mate…..

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
2 months ago
Reply to  nic

Tempest isn’t to replace F35. It would replace Typhoon. And will be a number of systems, not just a single manned fast jet. That is only part of the capability.

Meirion X
Meirion X
2 months ago
Reply to  nic

Realistically, only the USA can afford a full blown 6 Gen aircraft by mid 2030’s!

We may need to settle on a 5.5 Gen aircraft.

Last edited 2 months ago by Meirion X
Andy a
Andy a
2 months ago
Reply to  Meirion X

Get other countries involved or all gunna buying American

Paul42
Paul42
2 months ago
Reply to  Meirion X

Just cancel Tempest and buy the US jet off the shelf. Its a sad fact that cost per airframe will be lower due to a bigger buyers market, and it’ll be better than Tempest.

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul42

When would Meteor, Spear Cap 3 and FC/ASW be supported, or any future new weapons? Its taking long enough to get the first two supported on F-35 and we’re a Tier 1 partner. Or maybe we just buy US weapons too from here on out, even if not as capable as our own? What about operating costs? You can count on one hand the number of companies WW that can build state of the art jet engines, Rolls Royce is one of those. BTW that’s only three countries, USA, UK and France. If we cancel Tempest then that’s RR out… Read more »

Nate M
Nate M
2 months ago

do you really want to be out done by the French? if yes then. What wrong with you?

Steve R
Steve R
2 months ago
Reply to  nic

I’d say retain Typhoon and continuously upgrade and replace with newer, upgraded airframe, as the USAF has done with the F-15EX.

Even if we still go ahead with Tempest it’ll likely be in fewer numbers than the Typhoons they’re supposed to replace.

David Steeper
David Steeper
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve R

Anyone know what the chances are of Japanese involvement with Tempest ?

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 months ago
Reply to  David Steeper

From reading what has been published and what they’re not saying. I don’t think Japan will be an active part of team tempest. However, I do believe there will be a lot of technology sharing between the projects. Even though Japan has been in bed with the US for quite a while. They have become more frustrated with the US constantly blocking purchases or technology, the F22 for example. This is one of the reasons why they are going it alone. It’s not like they are starting from scratch.

David Steeper
David Steeper
2 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Thanks. Nothing positive seems to be coming from Italy and Sweden impression seems to be that they just see it as chance to get £ from HMG. Maybe we’ll hear something when CSG21 gets to Japan.

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
Reply to  David Steeper

What would you expect to hear from Italy though?

Sweden may want their own airframe design but they are likely to leverage avionics, radar and engine technology if they don’t use the same airframe. For example they might license build the same engine but use in a single engine fighter.

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 months ago

I agree. For Sweden in particular, the Tempest would be a complete operational concept change. The model that BAe have produced is not a STOL aircraft. So it wouldn’t meet the Swedes requirements of operating from short roads etc. The likelihood is that Tempest will spawn a couple of aircraft, a heavyweight and lightweight. These would be direct replacements for Typhoon and Gripen, thereby meeting each Country’s requirements. The aircraft will share manufacturing processes, avionics, engines etc. However, the main issue I have with this method is costs. Two airframes = higher costs, therefore less affordable airframes. Will we be… Read more »

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

I haven’t seen a breakdown on how much of a modern aircraft comprises the airframe cost versus the cost of what goes in it and on it. Looking at the F-35 program it seems its taken many more years developing the systems, especially software, than the airframe and we’re not done on those software costs yet. Its sobering to reflect that the F-35 first flew late 2006 and we probably won’t have Block 4 done until 2026, two decades later. If we can keep to the Tempest programme intent of a fast development cycle, automated manufacturing and use of modern… Read more »

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
David Steeper
David Steeper
2 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Which is what you said. Sorry sometimes reading all the comments is like working my way through a book.

dan
dan
2 months ago

The politicians think they can do this on the cheap because if it fails to produce an operational aircraft they can always buy whatever the Americans develop for their 6th gen fighter which in all honesty will be a more advanced jet given all the decades of experience they have in making/operating stealth fighters and bombers.

Andrew D
Andrew D
2 months ago

Have there cut from Tempest to help the Army’s Ajax problems .🙄

David Steeper
David Steeper
2 months ago
Reply to  Andrew D

The RAF would be extremely unchuffed about that.   :wpds_shock:  I may be wrong but I think Ajax is beyond the help of man. It’s just awaiting a decent burial.

Jack
Jack
2 months ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Just like the Warrior upgrade programme or the NIMROD farce, coward politicians and incompetent civil servants would rather leave the tax payer on the hook for billions rather than accept responsibility and deal with the consequences.

David Steeper
David Steeper
2 months ago
Reply to  Jack

Yep. Add the people in uniforms and your spot on. The question is will it ever change ? I’m normally optimistic but in this case no.

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Ajax is a fixed price contract that the UK has already withheld payments on. The main issue for the UK is the delay in rolling out the platform, i.e. operational impact. If that wasn’t an issue then the UK could metaphorically just sit back and tell GDLS to fix it or return the payments. The issue also doesn’t reflect well for the GDLS brand for WW sales so issues will be fixed.

Meirion X
Meirion X
2 months ago
Reply to  Andrew D

No, it was projected that the Concept phase would initially cost nearly £2Bn, but it is expected to cost about £1.6Bn when it ends later this year. The other hard engineering phases in future years could cost a lot more, from other funding steams, yet to be approved by MoD.

The Main gate go ahead, after concept phase has ended, will probably need Cabinet approval most likely next year in the Assessment Phase.

Last edited 2 months ago by Meirion X
Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
2 months ago

Duck me I nearly fell of the sofa and dropped my coffee. I really hope the money has been spent well. What have they got so far? Obviously no actual aircraft but maybe designs, systems, manufacturing structures etc? I thought it was just a study into what could be achieved. A kind of de risking exercise

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
2 months ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

I think it includes the work on the RAF’s UAV’s as well.

See my post below.

Cheers CR

James
James
2 months ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Doesnt mean the money has been spent elsewhere, the money simply may not exist!

ChariotRider
ChariotRider
2 months ago

Quote: “A phase that will complete an Alternative System Review of the Future Combat Air System including the Core Platform, as well as establishing the international partnerships.” This seems to suggest that the “Core Platform” is only part of the investment so I assume that the £9.5b civers all the work on the UAV’s as well. If this is the case then there has been a lot of work carried across a broad range of investments. From other articles the RN and RAF UAV programmes are separate so this money will not include the navy’s efforts to provide a UAV… Read more »

Michael
Michael
2 months ago

When it was first announced I was extremely sceptical , this announcement vindicates my initial opinion.
Purely a seeing to be doing exercise, nothing more.

Esteban
Esteban
2 months ago
Reply to  Michael

My impression as well.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
2 months ago
Reply to  Michael

12bn is not a seeing to be doing something exercise.

Jack
Jack
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Spending £12Billion means nothing. What did they get for that money ?

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago
Reply to  Jack

A huge amount of research and development. This is for the Concept and,Development phase. And12Bn is small change really. Typhoon development was over 40Bn. Tempest is a number of systems under the banner of the FCAS (Future Combat Air System). And Tempest will be much more than us trying to build our own F22 on steroids. Some of that 12Bn might have gone in the loyal wingman project’s, which Tempest will be central too. The manned fighter is just one part of the overall FCAS. The design phase will be next. So I’d take the looks of the plastic mockup… Read more »

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
Reply to  Jack

Rolls Royce have been working on the new engine technology since 2014 as one example. Leonardo have already done significant work on the radar which is a generation beyond the system the UK will fit to upgrade Typhoon as another.

TypewriterMonkey
TypewriterMonkey
2 months ago

It’s not looking hugely positive. As a casual, outside observer going on the publicly available information I do wonder about this project. Developing a new stealth fighter is expensive. Who is going to buy Tempest? Saudi Arabia? Possibly. Italy? Sweden is developing their own stealth aircraft. Instead of lasers, and fancy PowerPoint whatnot perhaps it should be less ambitious, focus on low running costs that the RAF can afford to operate, more along the lines of what the Swedish have done with Gripen? I read somewhere online that the European FCAS will be based on the Rafale, basically a stealth… Read more »

Paul T
Paul T
2 months ago

Without focusing too much on Tempest I have always been sceptical that the European Aerospace Industry could realistically support Two different 6th gen Programmes.

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 months ago

To be brutally honest the FCAS is playing catch up with the F35, let alone Tempest! France, Germany and Spain have not worked on or operated a 5th generation aircraft. Neither the Rafale or Typhoon have anywhere near the data collection or sensor fusion that the F35 has. I do know that Germany has a lead over France in regards to radar absorbent materials. But even they are a ways behind what BAe have been producing let alone Lockheed Martin’s wide band embedded RAM. It’s the same with the engine. No doubt FCAS will use a development of the Snecma… Read more »

TypewriterMonkey
TypewriterMonkey
2 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

You’re right. Undoubtedly, there’s a lot of impressive technology and talent behind the wider Tempest project. I just hope that luck, economics, and politics are on their side.

steve
steve
2 months ago

Here will go all talk and little money and investment from a Tory government that has made cuts and cuts to armed forces over the years reduction in men SHIPS AIRCRAFT and lack of new hard wear so it we it not enter service until 2050 i bet hopefully a change government could help

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
2 months ago
Reply to  steve

Thqt comment sounds like a statement from a student union rag.

Tommo
Tommo
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Well said Robert probably posted from the people’s Republic of Islington

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago
Reply to  Tommo

😄👍

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 months ago
Reply to  Tommo

Bravo.

Paul C
2 months ago
Reply to  steve

It could help, but most probably will not. Unless the new government provides the MoD with a more generous settlement, which is unlikely, things will either stay the same or get worse. Easy to talk up defence when in opposition, actually doing it in office is a different story.

David
David
2 months ago
Reply to  Paul C

I wish Sir Keir Starmer would raise defence more often – the Cons are wide open with their misleading evidence to Parliament and downright sophistry on matters related to defence not to forget their manifesto commitments.

expat
expat
2 months ago
Reply to  David

Hmm go luck with that. Labour used to be a decent backer of defence but can’t see it these days. I think Tempest will go the the way of TSR 2 not due to Keir, he seems more of pragmatic politician, but due pressure from within the party.

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
Reply to  expat

Major high value job losses in sensitive regions if that happens, not sure any political party will want to own that. Of all the defence industries to be in for the UK, aerospace is definitely it, where it dominates our defence exports. WW leads in avionics, radar, and defense aids from Leonardo. WW leading weapons from MBDA UK. A very exclusive club for state of the art jet engines in RR’s case. Its ironic how many suggest exiting Tempest given the hysteria on this site about the need to build our own military vehicles when every man and his dog… Read more »

Expat
Expat
2 months ago

I’m not suggesting exiting Tempest just that security of the project is not guaranteed .Their are some politicians who don’t see this as we do have complete contempt for defense and for example think Green jobs could replace complex military investments. We were a world leader in aircraft design and manufacture now fast just production relies on Tempest alone. And 100% agree military investment should be a catalyst to create commercial opportunities not the only way industry can survive.

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  steve

All governments have done the same, all are total shite when it comes to defence.

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

True. However, Labour say ‘we are the party of defence’ do they?

And, as I’ve written John Hutton SoS Defence, went against the Leadership to defend the nuclear boats – not many do that.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

Hutton is Labour Shadow, not SofS Defence. He is a top bloke. He understands Defence even without a background in it.

Last edited 2 months ago by Graham Moore
Tommo
Tommo
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Although in 79 St Margaret did give us including Myself a Payrise and then lord of the undead John knott swung the Axe on defence whilst keeping those Lovely looking Type 21s which were later held together with what looked lengths of railway track to strengthen their superstructure .Again cost cutting whilst in the building stage lead to failures when deployed

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Tommo

Strange answer, not really relevant to my post but each to their own I suppose.

Tommo
Tommo
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

I do apologise Airborne the thread is slightly misleading as I was a surface skimmer (Navy ) what I was trying to put across was that successive Government give with One hand and take away with a bloody Dumper truck with the other ie you can have a payrise but the equipment you have will have to do in all eventualities One example Action working dress number 8s were cotton flame resistant a tad to expensive MODs solution Nylon Shirts and trousers alright for those behind a desk in Whiehall Not for us During OP Corporate FALKLANDS CAMPAIGN How many… Read more »

Airborne
Airborne
2 months ago
Reply to  Tommo

Correct mate, whatever funding you think your getting for “new” has generally been taken from other necessary, but “kicked the can down the road” projects. Nothing in this world for free, and most certainly not in the defence budget world.

Tommo
Tommo
2 months ago
Reply to  Airborne

Amen and thanks Airborne

James
James
2 months ago
Reply to  steve

So the government has put more money into defence despite a huge economy damaging pandemic and you make a stupid comment like that?

What was the alternative, Corbyn? Ah yes that bloke who would have pretty much disbanded all defence spending to fund his loony tunes fantasy spending plan he had.

Cripes
Cripes
2 months ago
Reply to  James

HMG has made a great fanfare of putting more money into defence. But they are at the same time cutting the army establishment by 12,500 troops and the RAF by 60-70 aircraft/pilots/maintenance crews. Guess where the ‘extra’ money is coming from! Boris is taking with one hand and giving some of it back with the other, a typically cynical PR wheeze designed to fool the public and defence sector alike. Can’t believe that some on here gave fallen for it. The savings on 12,500 troops pay, allowances, feeding, barracks, equipment, vehicles, training etc over the next decade will vastly outweigh… Read more »

expat
expat
2 months ago
Reply to  steve

Why? Are a new political party about to launch? Not aware of any opposition parties that have a strong defence mandate.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 months ago
Reply to  steve

1997 – 2010 11 FJ squadrons lost.
2010 – 2021 3 FJ squadrons lost. ( 6 in real terms )

1997 – 2010 12 Escorts lost.
2010 – 2021 4 Esc0rts lost.

So many conveniently forget, were too young to remember, or choose to ignore for PP purposes those years.

The only reason the army manpower was not cut 97 – 2010 was Iraq and Afghanistan.

All parties have been bad on defence. Just to add some balance.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago

Yeah, Labour chopped away more discreetly after the 1998 review. But to there credit, they did launch the carrier project.

Dave12
Dave12
2 months ago

Well the papers are saying Ajax is going to be binned, tempest being binned will not surprise me at all ,but it’s very much needed ,I will pray to the gods of common sense.

Last edited 2 months ago by Dave12
Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
2 months ago

For those interested in some very interesting Tempest news. Key Publishing has released a special magazine titled ‘ Typhoon To Tempest’. 114 pages worth. Makes very interesting reading. And an insight into some fascinating technology. The design gateway go-ahead, is due to be announced very soon.

David Steeper
David Steeper
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay.

Your an optimist ! I’m impressed but you may be on the wrong page.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago
Reply to  David Steeper

Think I’m on the wrong site 😄

David Steeper
David Steeper
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Right site wrong page 😁 

Peter S
Peter S
2 months ago

This report and others like it from the NAO are pretty hard to follow,often because there isn’t full disclosure of the underlying data. I think Janes may have misunderstood and seen a revised estimate of future project costs as an actual cut. Nor is the £9+b they mention the cost over the next four years. So far £2b has been committed up to 2024. It isn’t clear why that is seen as inadequate. Exactly what we will get for that isn’t wholly clear either. But if that money doesn’t even get us to a flying prototype, then there will never… Read more »

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
Reply to  Peter S

Tend to agree ref Janes, it seems to have been a bit of a sensationalist observation this early in the programme. Perhaps the following is worth also including in the discussion – “The projects Baseline Whole Life Cost is £9467.00m. This is primarily due to the following factors: This is baseline funding allocated to the Programme as of 31 March 2021. It is not the anticipated Whole Life Costs of the Programme which is £72b” I doubt the £9.5b comes close to all the R&D costs. It would be a bargain if it did since its not that much more… Read more »

Peter S
Peter S
2 months ago

We’ve both read the report and the Janes article yet still struggle to grasp what the numbers mean. What exactly is the Project baseline whole life cost? And how can any total be given for anticipated whole life costs when we have no idea how many units might be bought and operated? Why not provide a figure for development up to manufacturing start up. I agree that if £9.5b is a large part of the R&D cost, it compares favourably with Typhoon. But it is known that the multi national nature of Typhoon caused long delays and a lot of… Read more »

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
Reply to  Peter S

There is undoubtedly at least one model for the £72b and perhaps several based on different assumptions for R&D, operating costs and unit numbers, so it seems unlikely any government would want to provide any breakdown on that at this stage. For example one dynamic emphasised for Tempest is a fast, lower cost development cycle, another is low operating costs. If both those parameters deliver then the RAF gets a larger fleet. The higher those costs go the fewer aircraft the RAF get. The observation on Typhoon was to demonstrate that the current costs are clearly affordable. Especially in the… Read more »

Peter S
Peter S
2 months ago

Agree completely. There is isn’t a lot of value in these reports at the early stages of a project. This one has already provoked undeserved criticism on this site.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
2 months ago
Reply to  Peter S

Not unusual TBF.

Geoffi
Geoffi
2 months ago

Quelle Surprise.

Tempest will never happen…

Terence Patrick Hewett
Terence Patrick Hewett
2 months ago

There is always money: the money will be found. There is no shortage of money: there is a shortage of excellence and innovation and original thought however.

Marked
Marked
2 months ago

Face facts, there was never a snowball in hells chance of this working out well with the UK government and MOD pulling the strings. Anything they touch is doomed.

Bob
Bob
2 months ago

No surprise there then.

James H
James H
2 months ago

Can the west really carry on like this, on programmes that last so long in development and swallow up more and more money only to be so expensive you can only afford a few.
Would constant developments of typhoon be better? Much like how a car is updated every few years or does the initial design eventually make it obsolete?
How do the Chinese develop and bring into service their equipment so much quicker then the west

David Steeper
David Steeper
2 months ago
Reply to  James H

They hardly have any development costs they steal that bit from the US.

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 months ago
Reply to  James H

There’s only so much that the aircraft can be modified, before it becomes obsolete, regardless of what up to date systems are added. The main issue is that other countries are developing low observable aircraft along with active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. The Captor-E 2+ version is likely to stay ahead of the game. But the Typhoon’s RCS is not being addressed. Therefore, the range at which it will be detected will be getting longer and longer. You could modify the aircraft to reduce its RCS, but it still won’t be as good as an aircraft that was designed… Read more »

Frank62
Frank62
2 months ago

UK undeinvesting in its future? Who’d have thought it!

Quentin D63
Quentin D63
2 months ago
Reply to  Frank62

Maybe it’s time to seek a joint venture or with a US company or merge with the European FCAS on this project? Isn’t there already a UK 6 gen technology share with Japan’s next gen aircraft too? Hope to god this Tempest program all doesn’t go into fresh air. It just can’t! There must be options on the way ahead? Britain should back itself, c’mon Mr Defence Minister!

Geoffrey Roach
Geoffrey Roach
2 months ago

A recent report issued after a speech by Gen. Nick Carter suggested that by 2030 a typical RAF strike formation could be two Typhoons, eight Mosquito’s and up to one hundred Alvino swarming drones.So the Tempest is for ? I know this is a little simplistic but the UK really has only three conventional war roles, or could have if we stopped trying to do everything without the budget to match The Royal Navy, properly equipped with a full complement of F35’s for both carriers along with sufficient “working” escorts gives us global reach and the ability to connect and… Read more »

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
Reply to  Geoffrey Roach

Problem is that the UK can be materially adversely affected by events half way round the world.

Long range multi-role aircraft, which is probably what Tempest will be, might support combat missions directly to the Baltics or the High North without needing re-fueling from vulnerable tankers.

Similarly long range multi-role aircraft might more rapidly deploy to the SE Asia, requiring fewer tanking assets and/or stops and have the range to be effective there once they do so.

Angus
Angus
2 months ago

Lets not forget that the RAF will be 20% manned aircraft and 80% drones so not real need for more than a couple squadrons of any Typhoon replacement. Too much high tech in a single platform, and when it’s grounded? you have nothing to give a big bang. Stealth, the RN killed that one in the first Gulf War and is really wasted cash, low and fast still the way forward. One of the best CAS in Vietnam was the A1 slow yes but carried a good load and stayed there for a long time and the A10 does that… Read more »

David Barry
David Barry
2 months ago
Reply to  Angus

Er! How many Tonkas did we lose in GW1 due to low flying making them vunerable?

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago
Reply to  David Barry

8 aircraft from 2,500 sorties. 3 of these were in training sorties.

Tommo
Tommo
2 months ago
Reply to  Angus

Covert a couple of C130s into our own version of the highly capable long time on station Spectre Gunship with an array of 30mms and 20mms taken from the Hunts and other surface platforms that are surplus to requirement

PCSB
PCSB
2 months ago

What a surprise next step de scoping and prolongation of the definition and development phase! With cancellation following after the next Election in 2 to 3 years. All this talk about drones and 6 th generation aircraft is just pie in the sky. When will we learn that it take a huge amount of treasure, we don’t want to find, to get a brand new design, systems and engines out of the definition stages and into development production and into service.

Mark F
Mark F
2 months ago

Same old same old. Now wait for some faceless wonder spokesperson from MOD to spin a Webb of deceit and the tried and tested smoke and mirrors. Nothing changes.

Ron5
Ron5
2 months ago

Seems that most “commentators” here wish Tempest to be dead and buried. I can’t help but wonder as to their motives. The project is flagged as amber/red because all programs at this stage i.e before business case approval, are so scored because until the business case is approved, no guarantee of the projects completion can be made. 1,65 billion was authorised to be spent in the projects first 4 years. That has been reduced to 1.2 billion. The report says “..it is not envisaged that this reduction will have significant impact on meeting the critical milestones for (this) phase..”. So… Read more »

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
Reply to  Ron5

Quite.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
2 months ago
Reply to  Ron5

Well said Ron. 👍

Johan
Johan
2 months ago

WAKE UP AND TAKE A SNIFF, BAEs is in the Bussiness of BULLSHITE, has been for Years. if you want to sell a product then you develop and produce it, as Ex BAEs out of Dunsfold. WE KILLED THE HARRIER, over an argument over MRA4. FAT CATS GETTING RITCHER, they worked out many years ago they make more money selling Airfields for Housing. Until there are enough partners on board to make production costs acceptable, the mock-up stands a better chance of flying. Throwing another £54m @ France on top of the current £28m to stop people leaving beaches. Rather… Read more »

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
2 months ago
Reply to  Johan

Wow, that’s some strong statements there. I would say a person who has financed a trip half way round the world through situations we can’t even imagine has to be a pretty good hard working person. When they arrive put them through college to get there English and other skills up to scratch. Then give them options to train in sectors we are lacking people in.
You would find the majority would be m so happy and grab the opportunity with both hands. The dead beats of there society are still in there own country moaning how rubbish life is.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
2 months ago
Reply to  Johan

Every single thing you said is wrong, on so many levels. 🤦‍♂️

Steve R
Steve R
2 months ago

That’s a huge disappointment, though hardly surprising! So more than likely 10 years late and in far fewer numbers than we need – lucky to get 60-80 of them. I wonder, and someone with more knowledge and insight feel free to correct me, but I wonder whether we should emulate the US Air Force and purchasing a massively updated Gen 4 airframe – they did it with F-15EX, we could do so with Typhoon: Purchase Tempest, which will likely be in fewer numbers than the Typhoons we currently have, which Tempest is supposed to replace. Say around 80 airframes. Continuously… Read more »

Steve R
Steve R
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve R

That should be “so few units as to be ineffective,” sorry.

But I think if we retained Typhoon in significant numbers of 120 or so, slowly replacing the oldest with newer airframes and continuously upgrading them, in addition to 80-90 Tempest and then putting the 80-odd F-35s we end up with into the Navy, this could give us a decent-sized combined RAF/FAA force.

Robert Blay.
Robert Blay.
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve R

The number of aircraft required hasn’t even been decided yet, let alone announced. Because Tempest will be a family of systems and capabilities. The manned fighter, is just a part of it. If we even get a manned fighter.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve R

Until we get to production I will remain positive. Every program has its wobble points. The , f35, merlin, typhoon all had moments when things looked and were reported to be bad.
Folks said then scrap it and update tornado and phantoms instead. Could u imagine if we had done this!
Typhoon needs replaced in the timeframe tempest is set to. So let get the best we can get working on creating what we need. There is no plan b so far

David Steeper
David Steeper
2 months ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

You won’t be the only optimist. This program has barely begun and it’s written off by most on one media report.

Dern
Dern
2 months ago
Reply to  David Steeper

There’s a huge amount of negativity in general in “UK defence commentary” or whatever you want to call the wider cyberspace.
Twitter is especially bad for it, with people positively licking their lips over bad news stories and rubbishing projects.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve R

The thing with the f-15ex is it’s development was mostly paid for by Middle East countries. It’s not the Americans only jet in service. So far it appears it will be used for homeland defence only replacing worn out f15s. What the future hold is anyone’s guess. I’m not adverse to keeping the typhoon line open by purchasing 6-10 jets a year. And upgrading over the lifetime. This would then feed into tempest etc. It has to be affordable and I don’t know if that’s possible without some research on my part. Replace the older ones with new ones over… Read more »

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 months ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

The F15EX is really a politically appointed aircraft, as to what the USAF actually wanted. Boeing were on the ropes after the 737 problems and the continual issues with the KC46 had pushed them into the red. Congress were looking for a lifeline to prevent Boeing from going under. They decided to give the USAF new F15s to replace the aging ones, and help their constituents as well There was no lobbying from the USAF for new F15s. Which is no different to what Gordon Brown did really.

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
2 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

Your right about the f15 there. The us government have so much power it seems in us defence matters.
U lost me with the Gordon brown part?

DaveyB
DaveyB
2 months ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Made sure the RN were getting the carriers and that they were to be built at Rosyth. Which just happens to be in his constituency.

Angus
Angus
2 months ago
Reply to  DaveyB

In part correct but actually most of the carriers were made else where in the UK and assembled in Rosyth which was far from the biggest share of their cost. Only place able to do so other than H&W in NI which was almost dead by then.

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
Reply to  Steve R

The US is also developing NGAD, so it seems we are emulating the US except we aren’t buying more Typhoons.

“Designed to complement the F-35, F-22, joint, and partner forces in the Air Superiority role, Next Generation Air Dominance is an advanced aircraft program for development of penetrating counter air platforms with multi-domain awareness, agile resilient communications, and an integrated family of capabilities.”

Tommo
Tommo
2 months ago

Just typical, great Idea and concept for Britain to show the world ,but due to budget constraints we’re just buy off the shelf and place british made rondels on the airframe ,Didn’t this happen before with the Tr2???

Tommo
Tommo
2 months ago

Another Shakespearean tragedy The Tempest but we did get a satellite from the main character which was British built Prospero

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago

The general lack of understanding and doom and gloom on this thread is outstanding. For some many who show an interest in defence matters, the lack of basic understanding is pretty scary. Out of 121 comments, about 20 are positive, and show a good level of understanding and common sense. The rest are like school children comments. The worst enemies of British defence projects, are the uninformed who write it off before it’s even started. To many opinions, and not enough brain cells.

Karl
Karl
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

And maybe a lot of us are “old sweats” who have seen, lived and breathed this gumph before. Just be honest, defence in the UK is in the hands of corporations who blind brass and politicians with crud. THATS where cynicism comes from.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago
Reply to  Karl

And i understand that Karl. But many slag things off before even looking at the basics facts. The T45 Destroyer story yesterday was a very good example of people rushing to comment disgrace and outrage when they don’t even understand the difference between refits and maintenance periods.

David Steeper
David Steeper
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Amen to that. You’d never believe it from reading most comments on here but we have the most powerful military in Europe. If you don’t believe me ask Putin.

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Agreed. It is perhaps just the way of the world now to express thoughts apparently without either researching the topic or including caveats around an opinion should there not be time for the research.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago

Yes, social media is a minefield of people quick to comment before reading the articles. The defence sites on Facebook are even worse. I stay clear of them now. Defence can be a frustrating business for those who care enough. But two many are quick to write us off, when we are in a pretty good state in many area’s. Tempest has a long way to go, but i belive the ambition is there, and the money considering we are still suffering from a global pandemic. I think a 2035 entry service date is a tad ambitious, and I wouldn’t… Read more »

Glass Half Full
Glass Half Full
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

As you might surmise from my screen name, I see the positives in the UK’s changing defence position. For many there seems to be a wholly unrealistic expectation to be able to reverse the defence trends and overall financial challenges of the last 30 years in the blink of an eye, in order to get to the land of rainbows and unicorns, presumably by using a magic money tree at Westminster. It doesn’t mean we can’t be constructively critical, unfortunately too many miss the constructive bit. As to Tempest, 2035 for IOC seems ambitious but perhaps that’s because we are… Read more »

Expat
Expat
2 months ago
Reply to  Robert Blay

Yep people moan how the costs of the F35 ran away. We have capped investment and will be prioritising requirements. If this was 450m overspent the same bunch would be moaning.

Robert Blay
Robert Blay
2 months ago
Reply to  Expat

Definitely. Couldn’t agree more 👍

expat
expat
2 months ago

When you dig into this it appears to a rather premature assessment. Firstly its a £12.8b program so its 3% cut but it also unclear that money has been cut from the program overall. Its saying the first phase is now 450m less which adds risk to follow on phases. There’s also valid reason why you may want to do this 1 could be you have time boxed the assessment phase and there’s no more time left consume the funds, Extending the phase to consume the funds also risks IOC so you take a program decision, most likely the high… Read more »

Ron5
Ron5
2 months ago
Reply to  expat

Nobody is listening here dude. Very sad.

Expat
Expat
2 months ago
Reply to  Ron5

Agree, a number you can see right through the comments most trying to make it a political point.

Michael
Michael
2 months ago

The defence review showed we are moving into an even more uncertain world.
We have a ever more belligerent Russia with Putin trying to distract from home problems and China looking at taking over the entire China sea.
Now is not the time!!

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
2 months ago
Reply to  Michael

Agreed

Scousepower
Scousepower
2 months ago

We need a SpaceX approach / startup to disrupt existing defence industries and methods. Screaming out for change. And do we really need a few-and-expensive weapons platform yet again? How about a many-and-cheap or swarm approach? How would a few 6+gen warplanes defend our island against attack that would surely start with hundreds of cruise missiles? Would thousands of defensive missiles of various types be more effective, cheaper and easier to replace, offering sustainable attrition rates under a true war footing? I don’t know. I effin hope there’s an Elon Musk of the defense industry out there who does. It’s… Read more »

the_marquis
the_marquis
2 months ago

NAO report conclusion in full: “Tempest funding less that required…but still way more than whatever Russia is spending on its new single engine jet fighter, and at least there’s no arguing about who builds what like the FCAS!”

Monkey spanker
Monkey spanker
2 months ago
Reply to  the_marquis

One thought about the single seat of tempest is can the pilot manage everything that needs done if he’s flying with 6 drones and 50 swarming drones. Personally I would prefer a back seater for when the proverbial hits the fan

the_marquis
the_marquis
2 months ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

Yeah I have wondered about this previously, whether the rise of the loyal wingman concept would lead to a renaissance in backseaters, together with having a dedicated EW operator. But then the pilot reports of flying the F35 have all talked about how easy it is to fly that they can devote more time to the mission, so even with the extra roles fastjets are asked to carry out in future, maybe the technology now is so advanced that the backseater is (still?) redundant, or should I say, the Goose is cooked??😉

Tommo
Tommo
2 months ago
Reply to  Monkey spanker

A jafo would come in handy , but honestly surely a Hands on approach in training would without doubt require a two seater and I don’t mean a HAWK would suffice as the Tempest would be in theory so much more Could this be achieved ?

Mike Barrett
2 months ago

Lots of negativity regarding this project. The £12 billion invested in this project is being used to develope the airframe shape, the software, the sensors and the helmet, these things are critical to make it the world’s first 6th generation fighter. So yes right now you don’t see much of the actual aircraft as this will be made on a computer and simulated for many thousands of hours before you ever see one being built and tested. This project will go ahead, my fear is maybe watered down to eventually become a 5.5 generation fighter. A stealthy version of a… Read more »

Steve
Steve
2 months ago
Reply to  Mike Barrett

I think that is ultimately the problem, the sheer costs involved in getting a modern fighter to market is going to be huge and can the three member nations really afford it. If Japan and a couple of other nations had joined, then it might have been viable but i question if it can be with just uk/sweden/italy. I tried to find the total R&D cost for the F35 or Typhoon but couldn’t find them, but guessing well above the £2b that the UK gov has so far committed to pay upto 2025. £2b is a lot of money, but… Read more »

Tommo
Tommo
2 months ago

MR Wallis must have Oppos within BAE systems as they have been awarded 250million for Assessment and Concept programme for Tempest