The Ministry of Defence has outlined the vehicle types to be retired from service by 2030 to “streamline the Army’s fleet”.

The information came to light via a written Parliamentary question.

John Healey, Shadow Secretary of State for Defence, asked:

“To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, with reference to British Army press release entitled Army’s top Brass Turns Out in Force to Address the World’s Leading Armoured Vehicle Conference, published on 22 January 2024, which 13 vehicle variants are being removed to streamline the Army’s fleet and improve readiness.”

James Cartlidge, Minister of State for the Ministry of Defence, responded:

“The vehicle variants currently identified to be removed from service by 2030 are:

  • AS90
  • Stormer
  • Warrior
  • 105mm light gun
  • BV206
  • Mastiff
  • Ridgback
  • Wolfhound
  • Beach Recovery Vehicle
  • Heavy Equipment Transporter
  • Foxhound Protected Patrol Vehicle
  • Jackal
  • Coyote
  • Pinzgauer
  • Landrover (including WMIK/RWMIK variants)
  • Quad bike
  • Wheeled Tanker
  • Challenger 2
  • Puma

Similarly, on current plans it should be recognised that a number of new platforms and families of vehicles are being introduced such as the New Medium Helicopter, the Boxer family, the Ajax family and the Light Protected Mobility Platform family.”

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George has a degree in Cyber Security from Glasgow Caledonian University and has a keen interest in naval and cyber security matters and has appeared on national radio and television to discuss current events. George is on Twitter at @geoallison
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Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago

All to be replaced by a Ford Popular and an armed Transit.😇

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

No expense spared then and armed with a few sorn off’s for good measure. 😂

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago
Reply to  Nigel Collins

Several “bores” will no doubt be involved in the design process👍

Nigel Collins
Nigel Collins
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

😅

klonkie
klonkie
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

and of course “fitted for but not equipped with” 😎

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago
Reply to  klonkie

Wheels?🙂

klonkie
klonkie
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

oh Gawd – that’s funny Geoff !😂

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago
Reply to  klonkie

Thankee my friend.😊

Barry Larking
Barry Larking
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

Oh, you and whose bank balance will pay for that extravagance, Rockéfeller?

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago
Reply to  Barry Larking

Umh, on balance, perhaps I shouldn’t go for the Popular and the Trannie at the same time.🤔

Darryl2164
Darryl2164
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

Don’t forget a machine guns on the back of a Hilux

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago
Reply to  Darryl2164

I was thinking of SMART weapons but thought I might be overdoing it.😉

Exroyal.
Exroyal.
1 month ago
Reply to  Geoff Roach

Can’t wait to see the Beach Armoured Recovery Transit. BART has a ring to it though, I fear it may need a life ring.

Geoff Roach
Geoff Roach
1 month ago
Reply to  Exroyal.

DOH! Get it? I like BART…Simpson?🙃Acronyms…the way forward.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  Exroyal.

They are going to bring out the Transit duplex drive similar to WW2 Sherman’s. That’s one way of continuing to deliver defence on the cheap and ineffective.
This list in all seriousness is shocking. What are we replacing those vehicles with? I see even more extensive capability gaps opening up in the Army order of battle.
You’d think the Ukraine war and all our allies warnings were just some sort of hoax the way the government are currently behaving.

Brian Dee
Brian Dee
1 month ago

So all the stuff brought in at huge cost for Afghan were a one conflict only kind of thing.

maurice10
maurice10
1 month ago
Reply to  Brian Dee

Exactly BD, and in truth not one of these weapons should be retired until the last moment of their useful lives. The Government is not looking at the big picture and making fundamental mistakes when it comes to War Reserve measures. Under the right storage conditions, these units can be saved for what is coming. This article is proof that the government is not listening to experts and allies who have warned the UK repeatedly about the inevitability of conflict, within five to eight years in the future with several potential foes. This report is depressing, to say the least.

Cripes
Cripes
1 month ago
Reply to  maurice10

Absolutely. It is criminal to dispose of reserve equipment that will be vital if push comes to shove.

There is a good reason the forces are selling off kit like there is no tomorrow: their budget on paper isn’t all money the Treasury is actually forking out, it includes the receipts from sale of equipment.

If they don’t sell kit to raise money,.then the budget shrinks accordingly. Another tricky Treasury way of reducing military spend. Hence the rush to sell off Panther, Husky, Hercules etc, all good enough kit that should have gone into reserve for a rainy day.

maurice10
maurice10
1 month ago
Reply to  Cripes

Defending a nation should not have a commercial component that reduces availability to make money. Such a policy should be called out at the highest level as this could so easily result in meanless loss of life. The snatch Land Rovers were a national disgrace and rushed into service because superior vehicles were either cast or not available at the time of commitment. Mastiff, Jackel and the other Afgan units are currently on a NATO exercise proving that they are still right for the job. 600 Boxers/300 Ajax personnel carriers will not be enough protection for UK troops if the… Read more »

L Jones
L Jones
1 month ago
Reply to  maurice10

All the vehicles mentioned are being replaced, there a vehicle pipeline that is doing the rounds. As part of that the Protected Mobility pipeline will decide on a medium and light vehicle that hasn’t been chosen yet.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  Cripes

Are we disposing of it all simply to give it to Ukraine. Making great political spin and huge announcements impressing the world of how much support the UK is providing?
All of course at the expense of our ability to wage any sort of war against our known enemies.
All of this equipment should be stored away if not needed as a national war reserve. Not given away and definitely not scrapped.

Tim
Tim
1 month ago
Reply to  Cripes

You need to remember that the budget is not to defend the country with, it’s to provide jobs in the defence industry.

Hereward
Hereward
1 month ago
Reply to  maurice10

Since when has any UK government ever listened to anyone?

farouk
farouk
1 month ago

To be fair most of the above are getting replaced (maybe not in equal numbers or even when they go out of service leaving a capability gap (Looks at Stormer) but they are getting replaced (i hope) . Looking at AS90, Warrior, I cannot but be dismayed at how the MOD whilst going out of its way to develop and procure top of the range equipment then in a pound foolish penny shy management style fails to upgrade them in which to keep them current at the time (A common recurring theme for the British MOD) but the two most… Read more »

Tom
Tom
1 month ago
Reply to  farouk

To be fair Farouk… I think he may have had an Action Man as a small child, which has led to his in depth knowledge of… oh never mind. 😂

Tommo
Tommo
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom

I did ,and it had a pull string with commands like ” Action man patrol fall in ” ” mortar attack take cover” .I had completely forgot until you mentioned that cheers Tom

Tom
Tom
1 month ago
Reply to  Tommo

Mine had gripping hair and realistic eyes… 😂

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Tom

gripping hands, perhaps?

kitto
kitto
1 month ago
Reply to  Tommo

Mine lost his voice after I lobbed him up in the air tied to a handkerchief ‘parachute’….

Simon
Simon
1 month ago
Reply to  farouk

wasn’t one of the issues with the current Hippos, that they are converted Leopard 1 tanks which caused issues with spares. Maybe they are going to be replaced by a version based on Challenger 2 or 3 ?

Joe16
Joe16
1 month ago
Reply to  Simon

I would be deeply impressed if they could make anything based upon a CH2 reliably float- they are significantly heavier than Leopard 1. I’m not aware of any modern NATO MBT having amphibious capability, but could be wrong.
I can imagine parts are an issue as you say though, with Ukraine taking (rightly) any available. Wed do better getting in on whatever the USMC’s getting.

Simon
Simon
1 month ago
Reply to  Joe16

Good Point
Centurion: 50 tons
Leopard I: 42 tons
Challenger 1: 62 tons Challenger 2: 64 tons(figures taken from Wiki)
May be a new base vehicle?

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 month ago
Reply to  Joe16

BaRTs dont float. Thats the point. They need to stay in contact with the beach out to a specific depth of water to shove vehicles and beached LCU/LVCPs off.

Joe16
Joe16
1 month ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

Ah, that’ll teach me for commenting without understanding the brief! I thought it was an amphibious vehicle- I stand corrected.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Simon

No, CR2 or CR3 is way too big and heavy for the task. Its not hard to fix a spares supply chain.

Simon
Simon
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

you would think a supply chain issue could be sorted as these have been in service since 2003 and it seems to be an ongoing issue since then. Leopard 1 is an obsolete tank. Mind you MOD sales have 14 factory refurbished L60 engines for Chieftain tanks for sales at the moment, so you never know

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  Simon

3D printing. Spare parts should not be an issue.

Simon
Simon
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

3D printing is very useful for some mechanical parts, but it cant do everything. And then there’s the case of obsolete electronic parts

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Simon

Somehow a supply chain has been established to keep Ukraine’s Leo 1s roadworthy.

The well-known Leopard owners club (it really is ‘a thing’) is probably involved.

I am amazed to hear that the MoD is currently selling L60s.

Simon
Simon
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

theres a post with a link to MOD sales below, it is waiting for approval

Simon
Simon
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Also selling of re-condition (in 2005) Rolls Royce K60 from FV430 as well

James Fennell
James Fennell
1 month ago
Reply to  Simon

I think current thinking is that a contested beach landing would be suicide in an age of drones and precision guided weapons. Slow moving LCTs and LCVPs – and LPDs at anchor inshore – supporting the landing would be sitting ducks for USVs, UUVs and UAVs as well as guided missiles, shells and bombs – like San Carlos Water on acid. Thus the key is to land small commando forces stealthily, to enable them to use suprise to capture port facilities or airfields from which a main force can be landed conventionally. If so, the the age of the LCT,… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by James Fennell
Joe16
Joe16
1 month ago
Reply to  farouk

Agreed about Foxhound, now that JLTV seems to have ballooned in price we should be going with what we already have in inventory and expanding, rather than scrapping without a proper replacement.

rattman
rattman
1 month ago
Reply to  farouk

A lot of the wheeled stuff is going to be replaced by a single class. For light stuff it will be something like the Australian Hawkeye or the american JLTV medium stuff will something like the bushmaster

Thales has submitted both the Hawkeye and the bushmaster for the UK’s protected mobility vehicle program

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 month ago
Reply to  farouk

BaRTs are Leopard based so probably not supportable in the med-long term. I would expect a replacement on a more modern base to be procured if Amphibiosity is to remain a thing.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  farouk

I am sure the Hippos have more useful life in them – their predecessors, Cent BARV were in service for over 40 years. Just need to improve the Hippo’s spares supply chain.

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Perhaps a new beach recovery vehicle based on an Ajax hull? I’ll get my coat.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Others want to turn Ajax into an IFV to replace Warrior, so anything is up for consideration – but the conversion to BRV would be an expensive project.

Jacko
Jacko
1 month ago

Jackal? Haven’t we just got 70 3s with an option for 240?

Spyinthesky
Spyinthesky
1 month ago
Reply to  Jacko

Thank you, I was thinking the same thing. Is it simply the ones going are to be replaced by the newer ones coming in? I hope they aren’t coming in only to be going out by 2030.

Jacko
Jacko
1 month ago
Reply to  Spyinthesky

Loooking back they have also upgraded 50 Foxhound to c&c variants due to be delivered by 2025 only 5 yrs service? It looks like Oshkosh vehicles are out replaced with MAN? More questions than answers on that list!

Jack
Jack
1 month ago
Reply to  Jacko

Maybe they meant the 1st Gen of Jackal but Gen 2 & 3 will be kept ?

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago

So what Artillery are the Marines / Paras going to use ? And if they are operating on Snow how will they get anything around without BV206 ? And although I know very little about land warfare stuff, what do they use for NBC contamination or transporting infantry cross country if it’s too wet for wheels ? Just asking because I’d have thought they need something to shoot with and move around in as I hear it can be slightly boggy in the Baltic, Snowy in Norway and some countries use Nasty Chemicals and other horrid stuff. Dare say someone… Read more »

Louis
Louis
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

BvS10 is replacing BV206. It already replaced it years ago in the more fighty units with 99 in service. 60 more are being ordered to replace BV206 in support roles.

MOD has been working on a 105 Light Gun replacement for some time. Seems to be a BAE 5 inch on a Horiba Mira UGV.

https://
http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/uks-light-fires-platform-completes-first-phase/

Deep32
Deep32
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Hi mate, there is a strong rumour going around that our 105mm LGs might just be replaced by 120mm mortars in some units. There have been hints on various occasions, but we shall wait and see.

James Fennell
James Fennell
1 month ago
Reply to  Deep32

Back to the future – The air droppable element of the paras had 4.2″ Mortars before L118.

Anthony Davies
Anthony Davies
1 month ago
Reply to  Deep32

Sons in 29 commando he’s mentioned they might loose the light gun and get morters

Louis
Louis
1 month ago
Reply to  Deep32

MOD have been working on a replacement and tested it a few days ago. BAE 5 inch gun on a Horiba Mira UGV apparently.

Deep32
Deep32
1 month ago
Reply to  Louis

Am assuming that that is something along the lines of a basic rendering that dstl produced last year sometime?

Louis
Louis
1 month ago
Reply to  Deep32

https://www.shephardmedia
.com/news/landwarfareintl/uks-light-fires-platform-completes-first-phase/

Louis
Louis
1 month ago
Reply to  Deep32

https:
//www
.shephardmedia.
com/news/landwarfareintl/uks-light-fires-platform-completes-first-phase/

Deep32
Deep32
1 month ago
Reply to  Louis

Cheers.

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago
Reply to  Louis

I’ve said this before I know very little about land warfare. Bug L let me get this straight, we are seriously thinking of using a gun calibre that’s not used for land warfare by any other country ?
WTF it’s like saying go back to the 5.5” and use anything but don’t ever suggest the M777 155mm.
What planet are these people on ?

Exroyal.
Exroyal.
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

There is nothing wrong with the 105. It was used in the Falklands to great success. You can undersling it throw in an aircraft with little prep. Ammunition is a dream to a logistical mind. Relatively easy to move on Battlefield. Quick into action. It’s a proven force Multiplier. Madness to let it go.

Tim
Tim
1 month ago
Reply to  Exroyal.

Time to retire the 105 and time we got larger mortars like the rest of nato the 81 just isn’t cutting it now a drone can do what they do

David Barry
David Barry
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

USMC are actually giving up their M777 because of the logistics trail.

YouTube USNI Naval proceedings and I think Task and Purpose put something on YouTube just last week.

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  David Barry

That was before Ukraine. Many ex US M777 went to Ukraine. I would not be surprised if their is a rethink in USMC, now that M777 is going back into production.

Joe16
Joe16
1 month ago
Reply to  Deep32

Makes sense to me, especially if it comes with a decent vehicle

Deep32
Deep32
1 month ago
Reply to  Joe16

If we did switch, you would like to think that it comes with some form/s of transport given the whole system must weigh a fair bit more than our 81mm version we currently use?

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 month ago
Reply to  Deep32

Or a low /soft recoil 105 on a vehicle

Deep32
Deep32
1 month ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

I think that thats basically the version in the link that @Louis sent me.
Its a bit of an odd calibre though – 5″/127mm. Granted its the same as whats going into our T26’s, but no other NATO army really uses it, so dont really know why they have gone down that route…?

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Deep32

It only makes sense if future NATO tanks also go 127 mm. Then Naval, Tank & light artillery all use the same calibre.

Deep32
Deep32
1 month ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Yes exactly, but that would mean everyone across NATO agreeing on something….🤔

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Deep32

120mm mortar range only about 7km.
105mm LGs range is 17.2 km
increasing to 20.6 km for base bleed rds.

Retrograde step to replace LG with mortar. But good idea to have 120mm mortar for Inf.

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Loss the the 105mm guns would mean no realistic artillery options for air dropped/delivery, which would result in serious issues.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

As 16AA and 3 Cdo would then have no artillery regiment. Which clearly is not going to happen, so people need to calm down. I’d hope they keep them and buy the vehicle mounted mortars to expand the firepower. Unlikely though with the manpower.

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  Steve

I think the government are undertaking a deliberate scorched earth policy. Destroy the UKs ability to wage war and then the cost of replacing capability gaps falls on the next government to sort out.

Steve
Steve
1 month ago
Reply to  Mr Bell

It does feel like that across the board not just defence, but I suspect its just they have been bouncing from scandal to scandal since boris and just too busy fighting among themselves to actually govern.

Will
Will
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

RE BV206 – I’m not 100% sure, but I think they’re being replaced by 60 Future All-Terrain Vehicles; however, I believe they’re for the use of the Royal Marines only. https://des.mod.uk/60-new-amphibious-vehicles-for-armed-forces/?portfolioCats=1235%2C78%2C735%2C69%2C734 Perhaps the Army may look at these in the future!?

farouk
farouk
1 month ago
Reply to  ABCRodney

Rodney, The BV 206 (TOS 1980) was replaced in teeth arm service by the BV10 (Aka Viking) around 2006, of which we purchased around 143 of which 99 received a mid life upgrade by 2016. The remaining BV206 were relegated to support elements. In Dec 2022 the MOD signed a deal (In conjunction with Germany and Sweden) with BAE for the successor to the BV10 : The  international Collaborative All-Terrain Vehicle (CATV) programme, google : DE&S secure 60 new amphibious vehicles for Commando Force under international contract for the story of which the Uk ordered 60  with a TOS date of Feb… Read more »

ABCRodney
ABCRodney
1 month ago
Reply to  farouk

Ta I knew we hadn’t completely lost the plot. Until someone suggested using a BAe 5” as a land gun when the 155mm is NATO standard and we designed the M777.

Micki
Micki
1 month ago

Champions in the cuts task. In a few years they Will complete the goal to leave Britain unarmed. Go go go.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago

Looking like good news for Supacat for the mobility vehicles and BAe and Rheinmetal for the new artillery.

Steve
Steve
1 month ago

There isn’t much left once they are all removed. Hopefully there is a plan for replacing vehicles and not just some aspirational programs, that will lead no where.

Clive Dunning
Clive Dunning
1 month ago

The AS-90s , M270 MLRS and Stormer should all be sent to Ukraine ASAP. I know there is a supply problem with the StarStreak missile for the Stormers but I’m sure the Ukrainians would prefer 8 Stormers with one missile than 1 Stormer with eight missiles !

Sam
Sam
1 month ago
Reply to  Clive Dunning

The strangest one to me is that Bulldog isn’t on the list. It’s the oldest vehicle we have.

Gunbuster
Gunbuster
1 month ago
Reply to  Sam

The FV432s have just had their fifteenth midlife update and are programmed to receive lasers and anti grav hover systems in the 25th midlife update planned for 2186

David Barry
David Barry
1 month ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

You’re keeping the photon torpedoes a secret then?

Mr Bell
Mr Bell
1 month ago
Reply to  Gunbuster

I’d heard they are projected to get photon torpedo cannister launchers in 2335 as well. Which isn’t too far in the future and sounds like a deliverable timeframe for an MOD project.

Rowan
Rowan
1 month ago

Well there goes the entire Royal Marines vehicle fleet without a program active to replace it…

Haven’t we only just bought a new batch of BVs and still have orders for Foxhounds and Jackals until the mid to late 2020s. With only 600 odd Boxers and 600 odd Ajax ordered what the hell are they replacing this all with, there’s no new MRAP procurement in progress so are we just giving up on light armoured vehicles all together.

This government is killing us from the inside out.

Last edited 1 month ago by Rowan
Frank
Frank
1 month ago
Reply to  Rowan

To be fair, the Landrover’s are all being replaced on a one for one basis with the latest Defender 110’s….. A new Carpark is currently being built in W1 with a special High Speed Rail Link straight to the Commons and lords….. MP’s are reported to have been given the full range of options and their Expenses allowances have been given an inflation busting boost to enable the continued World Beating, Cutting Edge, State of the art ability to project power from every level of the Soap Box…… thus continuing the long tradition of punching above our weight on a… Read more »

Louis
Louis
1 month ago
Reply to  Rowan

BvS10 already replaced BV206 in the more fighty roles with 99 in service. 60 more will be ordered to replace BV206 in the support roles.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Rowan

Viking says Hi.

monkey spanker
monkey spanker
1 month ago

Is this your official notification of what you identify as. Are you a him, her or they Viking?
I identify as a they coffee cup on Mondays, Tuesday to Thursday im a male umbrella and Fridays to Sundays im a they clanger. I also only speak in clanger noises at the weekend.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  monkey spanker

😆

Frank
Frank
1 month ago
Reply to  monkey spanker

Baritone or Tenor ?

James Fennell
James Fennell
1 month ago

AS90 – RCH 155, Archer Stormer – Medium Tactical Mobility Platform (MTMP) Warrior – Ajax, Boxer / ASCOD? 105mm light gun – M777 155mm, 120mm Mortar? BV206 – Bvs 10 Viking/Beowulf Mastiff – Boxer / Medium Tactical Mobility Platform (MTMP) Ridgback- Medium Tactical Mobility Platform (MTMP) Wolfhound –Medium Tactical Mobility Platform (MTMP) Beach Recovery Vehicle ?? Heavy Equipment Transporter ?? Foxhound Protected Patrol Vehicle – MTMP Jackal – Jackal 3 Coyote – Jackal 3 Pinzgauer – Light Tactical Mobility Platform (LTMP) Landrover (including WMIK/RWMIK variants) – LTMP Quad bike – MRZR-D4, UGV? Wheeled Tanker – HX2 Variant?? Challenger 2 – Challenger 3… Read more »

SRamshaw
SRamshaw
1 month ago

The British Army will be configured for, but not equipped to engage in combat.

Mark F
Mark F
1 month ago

So getting rid of the Beach Recovery Vehicle (BARV), means that the Royal Marines will have nothing to recover broken down vehicles from a beach landing. I know they only have about 3 or 4, but this is a unique capability that should be retained. Once it is gone it will be hard to get back and you will have totally lost the skill set. Madness, but as they are also getting rid of all the RN boats specifically designed to land Commandos on a beach, it doesn’t seem surprising, although I my opinion, a stupid and shortsighted move.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark F

The Hippo. Yes, only 4 I believe.
RM all about small raiding craft now.
I believe in the long run it could spell the death of the Corps, if they remove the ability to land heavier forces by sea.

pete
pete
1 month ago
Reply to  Mark F

They do sink the the BRV quite often , it then requires full strip down at great expense!

jjsmallpiece
jjsmallpiece
1 month ago

We are stuffed when the brown stuff hits the fan. What planet are our politicians on?

John
John
1 month ago

See no FV432 on the list….

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  John

Good spot. As featured on the Rheinmetal web site “retains a modern day capability”. Tracks, reactive armour, air portable…Add a Kongsberg RS4 and bobs your uncle…a cheap interim Warrior replacement?

Last edited 1 month ago by Paul.P
Dern
Dern
1 month ago
Reply to  John

432 is eternal. It can not be replaced.

Sam
Sam
1 month ago
Reply to  John

Yeah, I thought that very strange.

pete
pete
1 month ago
Reply to  John

The Bulldog 432 could go on a lot longer as cheap to run had a modern engine and gearbox not that long ago. It provides work for exhaust designers as on 4th design or 5th if you include the upgraded one for special armor package !

John
John
1 month ago
Reply to  pete

I spent few years rattling around in them. Still got the ringing in my ears.

PAUL KISTRUCK
PAUL KISTRUCK
1 month ago

And the Land rover will be replaced with what ?????

John
John
1 month ago
Reply to  PAUL KISTRUCK

I have seen “stories” of the MoD inviting suggestions for a replacement. Then it seems to end. Usual obfuscation, ie MoD fuck up.

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  PAUL KISTRUCK

A net zero Tesla, but the war will need to be near a charging point.

Cripes
Cripes
1 month ago

I make that 19 vehicles, not 13. Totting it up, it totals 2,911 vehicles. I think the list should probably also include the FV432 Bulldog (746), which is already going out of service, and probably the CRARRV Challenger 1 REMÈ recovery vehicle (72). If so , that would take the number of vehicles to be lost to 3,729. Then there is the Land Rover cut. There are apparently 7,019 of these between RWMIK, Wolf and ambulances. If they are all going, that takes the total cull close to 11,000 vehicles, by 2030. What have we got coming in to replace… Read more »

Gary
Gary
1 month ago

The 105 light gun ?? Wtf???

Peter
Peter
1 month ago

Completely typical of MoD why not retain equipment like the Russians have? Some kit is better than no kit

Hereward
Hereward
1 month ago
Reply to  Peter

All about the budgets….

TJ
TJ
1 month ago

Given we have such depleted numbers we should at the very least keep AS90, Warrior and other high value eqpt in reserve as you never know what might happen in the near future. Surely as demonstrated in Ukraine we need the numbers to defend ourselves on multiple fronts and what’s worse we don’t have the raw materials and manufacturing base other countries have access to if required to ramp up manufacture.

David Barry
David Barry
1 month ago

Can we please have a General Election.

AlexS
AlexS
1 month ago
Reply to  David Barry

Fixes nothing. Culturally Labour is even more anti military.

David Barry
David Barry
1 month ago
Reply to  AlexS

Of course.

Denis Healey and
John Hutton

Were very anti-military.

AlexS
AlexS
1 month ago
Reply to  David Barry

If you don’t know the typical Labour voter then it is useless to talk to you.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  David Barry

The election will happen after Hunt has delivered the March budget tax give aways and Sunak has had a chance to repeat his ‘the plan is working’ mantra a few more times. May is looking more likely. I think the voters will punish the Tories even more if they delay to autumn.
The economy is like a computer which is grinding to a halt because so many fixes have been applied to the software. The Tories are trying to run the country by patching Windows 8. The country needs a reboot and a change a new operating system.

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul.P

The Tories deserve to lose, but one look at Labour run Wales, shows that a Labour Government is not the answer. Oh & Denis Healey presided over defence cuts. For example RAF transport, Belfast & Andover, were scrapped in the mid 1970s.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Well, we all make voting decisions based on personal circumstances and experiences. As you say, I think there is a general view that, notwithstanding stormy waters- Brexit, Ukraine, Covid…there is an issue of competence and integrity with the helming of the Tory government. People will differ as regards how much of that is cultural and ideological. The people of Wales might have a different view to yours of the performance of the Welsh government. Similar situation to the SNP in Scotland; these are culturally different peoples to the English. They have different priorities and values. It’s their decision. Not sure… Read more »

John Hartley
John Hartley
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul.P

So did Ben Wallace, but the rest of the Tory Gov would not fund defence properly. SDR98 was a good document from a Labour government, but Gordon would not fund it. Having a decent DefSec is no good if he cannot carry the rest of the Party with him.

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  John Hartley

Quite. We need a leader in the Churchill mould.

Simon
Simon
1 month ago
Reply to  Paul.P

TBH At the moment I would say the people of Wales are some what unhappy with Welsh government to say the least. However that dosent mean at a UK government level it isn’t time for a change

Paul.P
Paul.P
1 month ago
Reply to  Simon

I agree. It is time for an IPL.

Hereward
Hereward
1 month ago

Sold off for next to nothing no doubt.

Adrian
Adrian
1 month ago

MOD / Treasury strikes again, priority number 1, retire and replacement an afterthought.

These should just be left to retire naturally as their replacements get delivered. It’s a bit like me saying I’ll retire my car this year and saying to my boss I won’t attend the office until my new car arrives which I may order next year.

Hereward
Hereward
1 month ago

Lose Light Gun (range of 17km); replace (maybe) with 120 mm mortar (range of around 7-8km (Soltam K6 as used by US Army as an example).
Perhaps the idea is to copy the USMC and use air instead of artillery….but we’d need more air then….
….But I’m sure the MoD knows what it’s doing.

Simon
Simon
1 month ago

haven’t the BV206’s been replaced ? There quite a few for sale on govsales.co.uk

Last edited 1 month ago by Simon
Andrew Crisp
Andrew Crisp
1 month ago

And the f432 remains !!!

Sam
Sam
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew Crisp

Just for a sense of balance with all these vehicles going, it does seem like they’ll have more Boxers on order very soon. The following is taken from Janes: The UK plans additional variants of the Boxer armoured vehicle, Janes learnt at the International Armoured Vehicles (IAV) 2024 conference being held in London from 22 to 25 January. The first priority is to order Boxer Repair and Recovery Vehicle, Armoured Mortar Vehicle, and Armoured Vehicle Launched Bridge variants in 2024, with initial operating capabilities (IOCs) at the end of the decade. This could be followed later by the Serpens Deep… Read more »

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Sam

Thanks for the reminder that the Tr1 and Tr2 Boxer orders combined includes 146 Infantry Carriers.
Assuming Platoon Commanders have a C2 wagon, then a Pl needs 3 Inf carriers, so a rifle Coy needs 9, so a Bn needs 27.
Hence thats just enough for the five Mech Inf Bns in the ABCTs – but only just – and just 11 to be shared between the Trg Org, Repair Pool and Attrition Reserve.
We surely get more Inf Carriers in the 3rd tranche (another c.400 vehs in total).

Andrew Crisp
Andrew Crisp
1 month ago

Beach recovery vehicle goes – we only got a few and it’s very niche – so you just know we ain’t gonna replace this specialist vehicle – cue uor at some point in future

Ryan Brewis
Ryan Brewis
1 month ago

That’s over 10k vehicles across a serious range of capability. What’s going to replace all those MRAPS and recce vehicles? Those tankers?
In other news, this https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/18/army-reserve-must-expand-by-100000/
Gave me a good laugh if nothing else. A Reserve of 100k would be lorry mounted if they were lucky.

Fergue
Fergue
1 month ago

They are casting those vehicles because there is not enough soldiers to man them.

Paul Shepherd
Paul Shepherd
1 month ago

I see FV432 will be soldiering on..!!! 😉

R G
R G
1 month ago

So what they gonna get ? A Toyota Hi Lux with a 50 cal strapped in the back 🙄🤨

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago

As usual, the never ending sea of moans with no context, where most of these have a replacement. So, for balance. Jackal, Foxhound gone by 2030? I’d be very surprised. Light Gun will be replaced, or retained. Stormer will be replaced initially by VAMTAC Rapid Ranger followed by, it is rumoured, a Boxer variant. Warrior is being replaced by Boxer, over 1,000 planned not just 600 or so. It’s a mistake, as an IFV is needed. BV206 are replaced by more BVS210. A pity, should just keep them as a useful go anywhere vehicle in Support roles. Mastiff Ridgeback Wolfhound… Read more »

Sam
Sam
1 month ago

It also seems Ajax is getting closer to IOC. From Army Recognition: The British Army’s new reconnaissance tracked armored vehicle, the AJAX, has successfully undergone rigorous testing in the extreme weather conditions of Sweden’s Lapland. On February 19, 2024, the British Army released information about the AJAX’s trials, where it faced the daunting cold of winter, with temperatures plunging to as low as minus 30° Celsius. he testing was conducted by the British Army Household Cavalry Regiment, an armored reconnaissance unit based in Wiltshire, showcasing the AJAX’s exceptional all-weather capability. The trials in the frozen landscapes of Lapland proved the… Read more »

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Sam

Indeed. Your post above is spot on Sam. There has to be balance in comments, many of that list are or will be replaced.

Tom
Tom
1 month ago

Give them all to Ukraine… now.

DC647
DC647
1 month ago

I hope retired and put in storage and not sold off cheaply, given away, or even worse scrapped. Ukraine has proved one thing sometime you need to use things from storage to cover losses most of this equipment is still modern and high quality. As for the challenger2s cant see why after the 148 have been upgraded that we can’t continue with a rolling upgrade of the remaining at a slower pace. Ukraine has proved we will need more than 148 going by the Russians losses I know most are not even upto spec of the challenger2s.

andy
andy
1 month ago

i like how they are keeping the old 432 bulldog and yet scrapping warrior, when i joined in 89 warrior was pretty newish and the bulldogs were all just about knackered…quite a few i do know are sitting at the bottom of an ocean somewhere as they used them to create an artificial reef

Simon
Simon
1 month ago
Reply to  andy

FV432 were rebuilt as Bulldog in 2006 and was a pretty comprehensive upgrade/rebuild. Still they are old. Wiki is suggesting some RE models have been equipped with a SWARM Remote Weapon System

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Simon

Not sure if all 432s got the Bulldog upgrade?

Simon
Simon
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

It is tricky to tell although the army guide website suggest there was an issue with the original engine/steering not meeting the latest regulations which would suggest that was a fleet wide upgrade. various sources suggest between 500 to 1000 have been back to BAE for an upgrade of various types

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Simon

Wiki says this about the Mk3 Bulldog: “The need to upgrade the FV432 to extend its service life further led the MoD to sign an £85m contract with BAE Systems Land Systems to update over 1,000 FV 432s to Mark 3 standard. Major changes include a new diesel engine and braking system. Initially, only FV432 and 434 models were converted, but other variants are being considered. The first 500 of the batch were handed over to the British Army in December 2006.”

Dern
Dern
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

All the 432’s remaining in service got the Bulldog upgrade, to the point where Bulldog and 432 have become inter-changable in Army parlance. If they weren’t converted, they were disposed off.

Sam
Sam
1 month ago
Reply to  Dern

They’re ancient though. Surely need replacing at some point. Haven’t we also sent some of them to Ukraine?

Dern
Dern
1 month ago
Reply to  Sam

At some point, but what roles is the 432 in? Mostly supporting roles where just some sort of off-road mobile vehicle is needed, they’re not exactly in flighty jobs. (And even then, some 432s are being replaced eg the 63 Boxer Ambulances will be replacing 432 armoured ambulances) The chief benefit of a modern replacement would be reduced maintenance burdern, but as long as the hulls are still good and the engines run, there isn’t a rush to replace the 432. *Edit* Yes 432’s have been sent to Ukraine, there’s footage of the combat beetle trundling along out there, but… Read more »

Last edited 1 month ago by Dern
Simon
Simon
1 month ago
Reply to  Dern

Thanks Dern, it was diffcault to get a clear picture of what number had been upgraded

Dern
Dern
1 month ago
Reply to  Simon

Yes and given the muddle in the AI brigades it’s even harder to get a clear picture of how many are going to be retained going forwards.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Dern

Thanks Dern. I assume the same is true for the other FV430 variants? My interest would of course be in the FV434!

Dern
Dern
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

I think so? Tbh I’ve always heard 432/Bulldog colloquially used to refer to all 430 variants still in service, but then I’ve also never worked with a REME unit.

Btw is anyone else not getting reply notifications?

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Dern

Thanks. I still get notifications but the service dropped out once a year or so ago.

Andrew D
Andrew D
1 month ago

105mm light gun ? to be replace with what ? Tank Transporter with what ? HMG say there appreciate our men and women in the forces Really 🤔 Going to be amazed what we end up with ,do the government expect the troops to push the Tank back to base or the training ground 🤗 For the 105mm probably get pea shooters .Lord help us Sorry about the rant Guys ,time for a walk .

Simon
Simon
1 month ago
Reply to  Andrew D

vehicleThe HET’s that have been up for sale over the last couple years seem to be quite old (~2006) I thought they were operated under a private contract, although may be the MOD feel a change of vehicle type is needed ( there were suppose to be 99 tractor units) Maybe they more for Ajax ?

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Simon

FastTrax operate the HETs.

Simon
Simon
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Thanks Graham ,that’s the one, provided s 92 HET’s + trailers + escort vehicles according to there website

Martin
Martin
1 month ago

ok, what replaces the 105mm Light Gun, AS90/Stormer with HVM, no orders for any of that yet it takes for ever to field new kit. We just do as normal and do with out for a decade.

Sam
Sam
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

They’ve got Archer on order. Whether it’s the long term AS90 replacement who knows. They’re looking at ordering VAMTAC Rapid Rangers with STARStreak to replace the Stormer, at least in the short term.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

105mm LG. Still not publicly revealed though strong rumours ( considering the MoD is making moves ) regards 120mm Mortars.

AS90 is being replaced by the Future Mobile Fires gun, whichever they choose. They have taken 14 Archer as an interim as they were available immediately.

Stormer, as Sam says, and I reported here the other week. A SHORAD Boxer variant is said to follow as SHORAD will triple in size, according to the CGS.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago

helpful reply thank you, lets wait and see

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

Yes, many if not most on this list have a replacement. Smaller numbers, yes, in most cases. So let’s not panic just yet here.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago

most on the list are over due replacement or not really ideal for any thing over than internal security. I do feel time is ticking on to match out of service date to new replacement in service date. After all Ajax is 6 years over due, Boxer is not many a year its a very slow rate of build. And Warrior replacement is as yet still no contract ,

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

I agree there, so often there is a capability hap and they drop stuff far too soon before the replacement is in place.
Boxer is “replacing” Warrior as things stand.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago

That,s a bad idea and a money saver. Boxer can not go proper cross country like C3, or Warrior could and will be rubbish in most Deserts.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

Yes, not buying an IFV saves money. But Boxer over Warrior in itself is not actually saving money, Martin, as WCSP to provide 4 Battalions of Warrior was much, much cheaper than Boxer. As I’ve tried to explain many times here with the timelines of Strike Brgades after the 2015 review, General Carter/The Army Board/HMG, whoever, brought Boxer forward. We should have been sorting Warrior, Ajax and Challenger before Boxer, which was then known as MIV, and was to enter service much later in 2027, once the other 3 were paid for and in service. Too many balls in the… Read more »

Sam
Sam
1 month ago

It’s not all doom and gloom however: “ Reports from London reveal that on January 19, under severely challenging winter conditions, with the temperatures plunging to minus 30 degrees Celsius, Ajax flawlessly completed its tasks. The proving ground was Sweden, but specifically in the harshest terrain the Scandinavian country has to offer – the icy expanses of Lapland. The task of testing Ajax fell to the British Army Cavalry Regiment, an armored reconnaissance unit stationed in Wiltshire. These trials didn’t merely assess mobility and the speed at which the vehicle could traverse this terrain. They also tested the firing capabilities… Read more »

Dern
Dern
1 month ago
Reply to  Sam

The “British Army Cavalry Regiment?” Who writes this drivel?

Sam
Sam
1 month ago
Reply to  Dern

It’s translated from another language, so might not have come out 100% accurate.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Dern

Agreed. It suggests UK has only one such Regt.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

Boxer is no money saver. It costs a fortune. Would have been much cheaper to upgrade Warrior.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

The MOD like expensive bad choices, that have to get fixed later

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

Warrior replacement is Boxer- announced by MoD in March 2021 (DCP). Terrible decision.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

A cheaper mistake that will need fixing years from now

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago

Very short range of 120mm mortars (c.7km) so would be a lousy replacement for LG. Good as an infantry enhancement though.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Thanks. Even that calibre? Didn’t know that. Let’s hope for the DSTL offering then.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago

I have not found an in-service 120mm mortar that can lob bombs much more than 7km – so it is no substitute for artillery.

Daniele Mandelli
Daniele Mandelli
1 month ago
Reply to  Martin

1st post in moderation, so look up what DSTL are doing with Light Fires Platforms.

Martin
Martin
1 month ago

That look like a toy, any one can design some thing, but will it work and the light gun is out ranged and lack power fact. That is why the Abbot was withdrawn. That drawing will NEVER enter service and yes i crewed the Abbot and Light gun, as well as other tube Artillery, not an expert but no the guns well and their limits. Light gun should be scrapped and replaced with M777 or some like it. its a range issue,

Paul K
Paul K
1 month ago

As an Irishman, living in a Country that seems to be walking around with fingers in its ears when it comes to defence, this is both depressing and an opportunity. As an increasingly strategic and vulnerable outpost in Europe, and a supposed guardian of the undersea Data Cables and Western Approaches, we are woefully inadequate. Constantly Badgered ( if you excuse the pun) by Russian aircraft and Naval vessels along the coasts of Donegal, Sligo, Mayo, Clare and Limerick, we have zero chance of repulsing any bad actor who may want to, or already has, meddle with the Data bridges… Read more »

Phil Austin
Phil Austin
1 month ago

If ‘Heavy Equipment Transporter’ goes, how will they move Challenger 3??

Tom
Tom
1 month ago

Why would the UK want to ditch the 105mm, which has served the Army very well, since the late 1970’s?

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago

That’s a few more than 13 vehicle types. The follow-up question should have been….and are they all to be replaced with the correct number of new equipments which are better than the outgoing equipment and before the legacy equipment is taken out of service so there is no capability gap?

Sam
Sam
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

I guess some of the gaps might be filled by Boxer variants, based upon the following:

On July 19, the UK Ministry of Defence shared its plan to acquire between 400 and 600 Boxer vehicles. They’re even considering the possibility of adding up to 900 more. This could bump up the total purchasing number to a whopping 1500 units. Given the UK’s ambitious order and their renewed partnership, we’re now exploring potential local manufacturing and export opportunities for these Boxer vehicles.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Sam

We have ordered a first tranch of 523 Boxers and a second one of 100 vehs. The funding is in place for a total of 1,016 or 1,018 – I forget which. It was said that army staff were looking at ways of increasing lethality of the Boxer fleet. That might mean that the next tranche will include Boxers with more firepower than the Infantry carrier. I had heard that the army requirment was for several hundred more than this c1,000 figure. Maybe 1,300 or more, even up to your figure of 1,500?

Sam
Sam
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Yes. I’ve seen up to 1500 from some sources. But the build rate is glacial.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Sam

That build rate is a massive problem – the early deliveries will need a rebuild/upgrade before the last ones are in the hands of the User.

Sam
Sam
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

It is. I saw 60 a year. Based on all the kit being retired by 2030, that’s nowhere near enough.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Sam

It really needs to be well over 200 a year.

Dern
Dern
1 month ago
Reply to  Graham Moore

Depends on how you look at it, a slower delivery rate means Warrior soldiers on for longer, and UK industry doesn’t get a boom/bust cycle.

Graham Moore
Graham Moore
1 month ago
Reply to  Dern

Yep, but MoD is having to find more money to keep WR in service for extra years.

Lee Andrews
Lee Andrews
1 month ago

The boxer is no where near as good or effective as the warrior ifv …as90 will be missed too ..I’ve been with both and the fire power and protection factor is a down fall

Mr John
Mr John
1 month ago

I think there will be 3rd world war soon and I done my service to my country but if I am needed I will rejoin again even as I am 68 yrs old

stevie
stevie
1 month ago

That means cuts and reading between the lines ; no increase in personal ,but we hear that labour still want to increase numbers in our armed forces also so said and done some of the quipt does need up dating so we wait and see all could change after the G /E

Boris
Boris
1 month ago

Good to see the 1960’s stalwart the 430 series are going strong into the 2030’s

Richard Beedall
Richard Beedall
1 month ago

Someone at the MOD is taking the term “foot soldiers” a tad too literally!

A very diverse list. Presumably Puma is the helicopter? Is the Ridgback a bicycle?  And it’s not often that you see the 105mm light gun being referred to as a vehicle!

The RM’s won’t be happy about the demise of the Hippo BRV, which interestingly implies an expectation by the MOD that both Albion and Bulwark will be gone by 2030, regardless of regular public statements that their “planned” out of service date is 2033/34.