Uniquely for a vessel of this type, it will be common to see the jump-jet F-35 appear to land conventionally on-board HMS Queen Elizabeth.

This is a process called Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing. It is a process designed to land jump-jet aircraft that uses both the vertical thrust from the jet engine and lift from the wings, thus maximising the payload an aircraft can return with and stopping the financial waste that comes with dropping expensive weaponry in the sea in order to land vertically.

Another operational advantage of this technique is that it can increase the landing payload capacity of a V/STOL aircraft, which can be restricted when it lands vertically.

It can also reduce the level of wear on the lift engines and extend their operational life. Similarly, it can reduce the amount of wear upon the deck surface of a carrier caused by the downward jet exhaust from vertical landings.

SRVL landing is under development for use with the F-35B when it enters service with the Royal Navy in 2018. Rolling landings will enable the F-35B to land on these carriers with an increased weapon and fuel load and will use the aircraft’s computer controlled disc brakes.

The Queen Elizabeth class mark a change from expressing carrier power in terms of number of aircraft carried, to the number of sortie’s that can be generated from the deck. The class are not the largest class of carrier in the world but they are most likely the smallest and least expensive carrier the Royal Navy could build which still have the advantages that large carriers offer.

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Callum
Guest
Callum

I wonder why they didn’t include an angled flight deck? Even though shes a STOVL carrier, you’d think having an angled flight deck would still be useful for landing without interrupting launches. The only reason I can think of is that the launch area extends so far along the ship that an angled deck wouldn’t make a difference

David Steeper
Guest

I’d guess it would affect the stability ranges. Even the dry dock. It wouldn’t be impossible to fit at some point in the future but it wouldn’t be a cakewalk.

MIKE TURTON
Guest

The aircraft carrier HMS Victorious was rebuilt with an angled flight deck in the 50’s so anything is possible in the future!

Glenn Ridsdale
Guest
Glenn Ridsdale

The point of an angled deck is that it allows bolters (i.e. missed landings) without risk to those on the forward deck. That simply isn’t required for either VL or SRVL.

keithdwat
Guest
keithdwat

you’d think it’d allow jets to take off and land simultaneously, with the current design it looks like its one or the other.

MSR
Guest
MSR

The existing deck is the very same size and dimensions as the early variant that had an angled deck painted on it. That’s the only difference: they painted the landing zone longitudinally instead of at an angle. That, and they removed the round-down at the stern because they weren’t considering CTOL anymore. The current deck is big enough to have one painted on. Just not using cats and traps.

David Steeper
Guest

I have to tip my hat to the designers. I have often expressed criticism of the size of the QE’s. But I was wrong and they have been proved right. Now we need to get the air group they deserve. At least 24 peacetime and 36 F35 in wartime.

Mr Bell
Guest
Mr Bell

David- each of the 2 carriers needs to be able to be deployed with at least 36 F35Bs in a wartime deployment and at least 24 in peacetime. Although rapid reinforcement via air was proven in the Falklands to work. We have to get this done- more F35Bs- enough for both carriers to deploy in crises/ wartime- so that is 2x 36 and then some left for RAF and UK defence tasking – so another 24-36- that leaves the active fleet as 108 at least- we have to get on and order more of these amazing jets and not let… Read more »

David Steeper
Guest

Agreed but that would require an F35 fleet larger than our current Typhoon fleet. Plus full integration of RAF and Fleet Air Arm sqds. Two extremely tall hurdles.

Mr Bell
Guest
Mr Bell

Hi David- why not a larger F35B fleet than typhoon fleet?- the typhoon fleet is too small. 7 frontline squadrons each with just 12 aircraft is a pitifully low force level. SDSR stated a commitment to “at least 135 aircraft over the course of the programme” why not get more than 135? no reason why not. The fleet air arm probably should have 4 squadrons (48 aircraft) at its disposal and not allow RAF interservice rivalry to impact its ability to deploy a fully equipped and armed QE carrier with 36 F35Bs on board. Williamson needs to have sight of… Read more »

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

I think we have reached peak Mr Bell with this one

Mr Bell
Guest
Mr Bell

Love it!- right back at you SoleSurvivor

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

I am not sure blaming the conservatives/coalition is alone is telling the story. Under Labour (and their pacifist leader) I am not sure it would have been any better and possibly a lot worse. Labour overspent by a hell of a lot (I saw this first hand working at a government agency at the time) and so cuts had to be made to make the countries finances viable again. I am not sure the cuts were made in the right way but I am sure Labour would have made much worse military cuts if they had stayed in power.

BB85
Guest
BB85

Agreed, there was a serious amount of money blown on failed projects like Nimrod, T45 the R2s, Astute. All of those issues date back to labour miss-management. Granted the Tories pissed a good bit away trying to convert the carriers to CATOBAR too late on, FRES and the Warrior mid life update have been nothing short of a mess.

Rudeboy
Guest
Rudeboy

There are lots of other cockups, Soothsayer for example.

But Labour weren’t really to blame, the Astute issues were in part due to the gap in ordering any new nuc boats for years at the end of the Cold War, that was under the Conservatives, Type 45 also suffered from the stopping of build and the closure of Pyestock (the national GT test facility) under the Conservatives.

All of the 5 dreadful Defence ‘reviews’ in the post war period that have gutted the military were held under the Conservatives….the only decent ones were under Labour.

expat
Guest
expat

Corbyns committed to 2% but he will be spending it on peace keeping and purchasing any equipment that keeps the unions happy. Perhaps more support vessels and OPV to pick up migrants in the med and bring them to the UK.

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

Why are you defending an argument by comparing a government in power to a hypothetical government? do you realise how stupid that is Lee?

David Steeper
Guest

Historically there hasn’t been much to choose between Lab and Con govts. But Mr Corbyn is at best a pacifist. His priorities would be the same as the for example shipbuilding unions not the RN. Where they coincide everyone will win. Where they don’t the Unions will win.

Ian2
Guest
Ian2

Blair ordered the two carriers but got us into two suicidally
expensive wars which the treasurary (Brown )got it’s own back by starving the forces.
Blairs biggest crime was not allowing the army to order vital equipment as it would have given away his dirty deal with Bush. Not realising the kit had long delivery lead times only increases their culpability .

Mr Bell
Guest
Mr Bell

Corbyn can never become our PM, I mean seriously? He wants to scrap our nuclear deterrent, is never be prepared to press the nuclear button even if the UK was a radioactive wasteland. He has visited the graves and laid a memorial wreath for a killed Islamic terrorist. All pretty bad signs of leadership. If Corbyn ever becomes the UK prime minister that is the time we really should run to the hills, dig a big hole, fortify said hole and live out your lives in sanctuary away from the madness in the world. I would hope the UK population… Read more »

expat
Guest
expat

The younger generation love him, there’s very active social media campaigns to debunk many of these stories and they’re working. They paint the mainstream media article as right wing conspiracies. There’s a very good chance he will be the next PM.

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

Indeed. Momentum are deeply dangerous. They are using tactics like Trump has been using successfully by painting anyone that disagrees with their “Facts” as oppressors and enemies of humanity. Momentum are massively militant and that is not a good thing for anyone long term. They remind me a little of Hitler Youth… (They are clearly not identical but are moving towards the same sort of tactics).

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

Shut your mouth Lee you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about, constantly bringing politics into this blog attacking labour and comparing momentum to the Hitler youth you absolute fool.

Why do you keep running away when i challenge you on it?

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

I have not run away from anything, I am still here. I went on lunch a little while ago if that is what you mean… I also did not realise you were in the office with me in order to challenge me? I have not seen you challenge me on anything…

However I will agree to a duel at dawn if you like…

I also did not bring up the politics, I was replying to others. You should learn to read properly.

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

You should learn some fucking respect, some regular contributors on here are labour members/supporters, some are even momentum members which I told you last time, I replied under another one of your comments on another article telling you to reply and you never.

And while others might be talking political you’re being highly disrespectful to compare people to the Hitler youth for fucks sake, which is the second time you have done it.

In what way do i compare to the Hitler Youth? what tactics do I use that is comparable to the Hitler Youth?

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

I do not have to pay any respect to someone who speaks to people like you do. And if you want to know how you compare then just look at the way you reply to any criticism… You might want to shut me up but I live in a free country whose people including my family have fought hard to keep free against the tyranny of both hard left and hard right dictators and having been in the forces myself I feel I have the right to my perfectly restrained comments. I have not once swore at you, but you… Read more »

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

Comparing people to the Hitler youth is not a criticism Lee, it’s an insult.

Surely you can understand that?

I don’t have a racist bone in my in body, I want men and women to be in control of the Labour party who I agree with politically, I have been involved momentum sessions that talk politics and have never heard any racism at all, it’s all regional at the last one we were talking bin collections for christ sake.

I just don’t understand this hatred for a group of people just because they have different politics than you.

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

I compared the loosely to Hitler Youth. I specifically said that they are not the same. The way in which they are operating politically is on the same wavelength. They are not murderers but then politics has changed. I also imagine that at a small person level they are simply a sounding board and that is probably what you see from day to day. However nearer the top they are clearly a lot more than that. To be honest anything describing itself as a Political Movement is not okay by me. Anyone supporting Militant Union tactics is also not okay… Read more »

Kieran Cunningham
Guest
Kieran Cunningham

“The way in which they are operating politically is on the same wavelength” How? you have yet to give one example of how they are in any way related or the same or how they operate the same. Activate? that was the conservative answer to momentum after the last election, now that has transformed into young conservatives UK, and it has practically the same mission as Momentum, to engage the youth and keep the conservatives in power. So what is the problem with theirs? “To be honest anything describing itself as a Political Movement is not okay by me” Ok… Read more »

Steven
Guest
Steven

Shut your mouth ? He is free to say what he wants, LOL.

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

“The way in which they are operating politically is on the same wavelength”

In what way? you have yet to describe one example in that they are in any way similar.

“To be honest anything describing itself as a Political Movement is not okay by me”

So you are against civil rights, womens suffrage, democracy and more recently Brexit? which are all political movements in the past and present.

Anyone who compares me to a disgusting racist organisation and then fails to back it up with any proper examples certainly does not deserve any respect from me.

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

“They are using tactics like Trump has been using successfully by painting anyone that disagrees with their “Facts” as oppressors and enemies of humanity”

Any examples Lee?

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

The Hitler youth used racism and Mein kampf as their ideology, did assault course training, military tactics and weapons training, was used to break up the Church, wore uniforms, membership was mandatory for 10 to 18 year olds that’s why it had 8 million in it.

Please do explain how they are similar?

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

They are similar in the way they are the foot soldiers for their leader and are attempting to take over the Labour party by inserting their people into all key positions. And lets talk about racism… I mean Momentum are not exactly against a little antisemitism are they? And anyone that disagrees with Corbyn or criticises him ends up under investigation while those shouting racist drivel are free from investigation. There is no need for military tactics in the days of social media and fake news. As for manipulating the news Lets take the latest debacle as an example. Corbyn… Read more »

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

All political party members campaign for their leader and their party, obviously you not being on that side of politics you would not understand the position of Labour since Tony Blair. The Labour NEC and the PLP are in the middle of the political spectrum, some even say they are centre right, as they carried on a lot of conservative policies. When Corbyn got voted in overwhelmingly momentum was formed to help turn Labour back into a left wing political party, it’s a political grassroots movement looking to engage the youth, that even conservative supporters admit that the right of… Read more »

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

“Mr Corbyn has denied commemorating the terrorists but pictures of the event show him standing at the foot of their graves.” five of them are buried in Libya, two are in unmarked graves, and one is still alive. That was from the original Mail article, which even though that exact same picture was released during the last general election, the IRA was bigger fish at the time so that picture was used a few times. Then almost by magic, at the height of turmoil in the party with anti-semitism, it appears again on the front page of the Mail, and… Read more »

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

Apart from the fact that he is pictured by a totally different memorial which is some distance from the one he claims to have been at… Yep keep believing his “FACTS” all you like. Trump is doing this with great success to the point his supporters now refuse to believe anything that is not said by him even if he contradicts himself. As for Momentum and Antisemitism. Jackie Walker was indeed kicked out but is now back at the top. That is certainly sticking to morals… Charley Allan is also a momentum member who was inserted into council leadership and… Read more »

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

I thought we were talking about the current debacle?

I asked what Munich terrorists are buried at Hamman Chatt?

Jackie walker is not back at the top, she got kicked out and stayed out, why are you making stuff up? and what she said was hardly ant semitic, you do know she is Jewish don’t you?

Charley Allan got into an argument about Hamas, again he is Jewish and criticizes Israel.

How are momentum undemocratic? They never existed during Corbyns election? or do you mean the second? what candidate did they prevent from talking and at what rally?

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

Jacky Walker is not Jewish. She was born to a catholic and was brought up and baptised as a catholic… She was excluded from the labour party but reinstated 3 weeks later. She was removed as the vice chair of momentum but is still a member and still on their steering committee. I think you need to read all of Charley Allan’s posts and comments. He also supports Hamas, an organisation that is homophobic and full of murderers. Now I am not saying Israel has clean hands either but two wrongs don’t make a right and supporting a Terrorist group… Read more »

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

“Jacky Walker is not Jewish. She was born to a catholic and was brought up and baptised as a catholic…” Jesus wept, Jewish identity is also defined through ethnicity not just religion for goodness sake. “Walker is of mixed Jewish and African descent.[1] Her father was a Russian Jew and that she was born of a Jamaican mother of Jewish heritage” Charley Allan is not a British politician, the controversy over him is because he was arguing over Hamas, the problem with this is that when is it ok to start talking to a proscribed terrorist group who have got… Read more »

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

You claimed Jacky Walker was no longer part of Momentum. She is and she is on their steering committee! As for talking with Terrorists. Yes governments should be doing so in a balanced way. There is no evidence that Charley Allen has sat down with leaders of all sides. There is no evidence that Corbyn has done so either. It is also possible to attempt to broker peace without openly supporting the terrorist groups! As for Salah Khalaf, he was the suspected mastermind of the Munich Massacre! He was second in command and Head of Intelligence of the PLO and… Read more »

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

But i’m not arguing about Jackie Walker! it was you who brought her up under the banner of antisemitism even though she is Jewish herself, which you even tried to say she isn’t! I have just looked and momentum never removed her because of antisemitism, she was accused of antisemitic remarks by a pro Israeli group, it was like the last one with Corbyn, when they tried to paint him as antisemitic for sharing a stage with a guy who compared the current actions of Israel to the NAZIS, the guy who he shared a stage with was a bloody… Read more »

Steve M
Guest
Steve M

They were actually talking about that on sky news paper review last night. How Corbyn is channelling his inner Trump by denying news, then it plays to his supporters who cry “fake news” and “right wing media” etc etc.

The problem is too many people believe it. Couple that with a potential massive swing away from the Conservatives back to UKIP (Brexit annoyance etc) and the like and we could be in trouble. A Corbyn government would decimate our economy as a whole, let alone defence.

BB85
Guest
BB85

It is actually frightening when you think of how realistic it is for him to be our next PM. I am hoping the events of last weekend will put a lot of middle of the road voters with even half a brain cell completely off him. The man is every bit a militant left as some of the most evil dictators in history just talks with a soft calm voice, but would happily use government force to strip individuals of their property because his socialist ideals are more fair than our own selfish individual opinions.

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

“The man is every bit a militant left as some of the most evil dictators in history”

Don’t be silly

IKnowNothing
Guest
IKnowNothing

The tragedy of current british politics imo is the abandonment of the centre ground of political life by both major parties. I don’t consider either of them fit for government in their present state. This while we lurch through an existential crisis that is bigger than any issue facing the UK since the end of the second world war. There is a desperate need for an effective voice for middle ground political voters such as myself who feel disenfranchised by the major political parties. In recent years the lib dems provided that voice and prevented either of the main parties… Read more »

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

I do think they have been unfairly blamed. Although I rarely voted for them they are important as you say. They had no choice but to abandon some of their policies when they were in coalition as that is how coalitions work. They had to work at getting as much of what they wanted as possible just as the Conservatives were working to get their policies through. I personally think that the coalition worked well in that time although I am not in favour of coalitions in general. It was certainly needed at the time though. I do hope they… Read more »

ProfEsser
Guest
ProfEsser

As a German, well versed in this continent’s “problematic” (euphemism) history, I’ve now lived in the UK for more than 8 years and watched the changing political landscape with great alarm. I’m also a Brexit supporter, which you may consider as ironic, but I’ve observed the anti-democratic forces at work in the EU first hand since they bullied the Irish to overturn a referendum result (I lived there in the early 2000’s for a few years) and I really hope the British people don’t allow themselves to be bullied in the same way. That being my introduction to this discussion,… Read more »

Thomas PAUL HALLORAN
Guest
Thomas PAUL HALLORAN

Corbyn DIDN’T visit a terrorists grave, stop listening to right wing mental cases and trouble makers and as for defence the only time UK armed forces are not under threat of almost treacherous cuts is when a Labour government is running the show.

keithdwat@gmail.com
Guest

you can’t stop the Moggmentum!!!!!

expat
Guest
expat

Not sure why we never fitted traps to the carriers. Cats would have been expensive and EMALS was unproven. But traps would have given more flexibility around AEW and COD. Also, why not look at a F35D, remove the VL capability and dedicated it as a SRVL version. Rolls develop a smaller lift fan giving more capacity for payload and use F35C wings to give more lift and compensate for the smaller fan. Rolls can probably get the same lift from a small fan these days as tech has moved on. If there could be a way of using the… Read more »

Mr Bell
Guest
Mr Bell

Expat- good ideas- something for the future- the F35 programme is in its infancy- it will develop more models in the future including a growler electronic warfare platform, possibly with passive/ active sensors and jamming and possibly a reduced size STOVL version as you outlined. I guess the reason no D version is available now is development costs- tens of billions have already been spent and the armaments industry now want to sell aircraft to recuperate their costs. Meanwhile politically because so much money governmental R+D money has been spent the military have to purchase what is available now. I… Read more »

expat
Guest
expat

I agree, there would have been more chance if the project was not massively over budget. The best chance of a D version would have to come from the US marines. UK will not be able to commit to the development costs. However I don’t think the costs would be that high as it would mainly be fan and centre fuselage redevelopment, the wings are already available, that assumes roll posts are not required on the D version.

Rudeboy
Guest
Rudeboy

“But traps would have given more flexibility around AEW and COD.”

COD will be carried out by the CMV-22 in the USN in due course. No Greyhounds will be in service in 5 years. CMV-22 can obviously land on the QE Class..

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

They were not designed in as the Government at the time decided against it for some reason. It was later brought back as an idea but was seen as far too expensive to redesign. They should have been fitted but I am not sure we should have gone for the F35C. The F35B gives us a very high rate of sorties. The Cats would have meant that we had the choice though…

Mr Bell
Guest
Mr Bell

Not sure we need CATS and traps.
F35B, Merlin and a small force of UAV’s, drones as well as the new tilt rotor aircraft and we could still have a comparable force to a US carrier.
CATS and traps would have cost the QE class programme £billions and billions more. the power plant in the QE’s is powerful but “only” produces I think 114 megawatts- a Ford class produces over 600 megawatts because it needs that for its EMALS (electro-magnetic aircraft launch system) SO the QE’s fitted with cats and traps would need more power production and generators

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

As far as I know it would not have added massive costs if it was designed at the start. It was going to cost Billions to add it in later due for the need to redesign large portions of the ship. It would certainly have been more expensive but I am not sure it would have been astronomical.

expat
Guest
expat

We don’t necessarily need CATS but arrestor gear would not have cost the earth and we would of had CTOL as a option. Traps would have given us a few more options and some flexibility.

Lee1
Guest
Lee1

I don’t think Traps are of any real use without CATS. The thrust to weight ratio would have to be huge to make it viable and that means something else will have been compromised.

expat
Guest
expat

Not necessarily, C0D for example, you can land a fully loaded aircraft and then take off with a lighter payload, you need the whole deck to takeoff though. They actually landed C130 on a carrier. The Chinese and Russians also operate without CATS.
SAAB were toying with a Gripen naval variant that could take off unassisted from the QE but needed arrestors to land. Drones would certainly offer good potential for arrested landings in the future with the light airframes.

Its not optimal but it does give more options and I don’t think it would have increase the costs much.

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Stay with the F35B was genius, one of the very big problems with cat and trap carriers is ensuring you have carrier qualified pilots, only the US have the mass to ensure they have the right number of qualified pilots. It’s an ongoing problem for the French.

If we had cats and traps the airwing we had would be it, if it was 12 it would stay 12, with the F35B we can qualify pilots in weeks, moving from an air wing of 12 to 36 ( or beyond) with relative ease.

Tim
Guest
Tim

1/ This landing technique is untested in terms of actual carrier landings so for all the simulated data we are still facing an unknown.

2/ There is zero chance of two carriers ever being deployed with solely uk jets . The reason ? We want the US strategically reliant on these carriers so they will always carry a deployment of USMC jets. In a time of crisis 50% will be USMC .

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

On point 2 if there is a situation that both carriers are deployed we are in serious s*** indeed and will be with allues so I’m happy to have our closest military allies on hand with superior resources of which we benefit.

Almost all other occasions only one QEC is deployed with a full airgroup.

One point 1 I’m confident all will be fine.

Tim
Guest
Tim

We would be better bringing USN personnel to help create a reserve of sailors able to spin up the at port carrier in a time of crisis.

Despite what people think, USN carriers and sub numbers are thin on the ground considering the threat areas and the fact the Chinese are now pushing into the Atlantic.

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) On a lighter note I see 820 NAS have now embarked all their Merlins on to QE in Portsmouth.

She will be gone soon enough …

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

lol

Do my eyes deceive me, Chris H being the better man and skipping a political point scoring argument.

I take my hat off to you mate.

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) – You spoke too soon ….Lol

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) Solesurvivor – while i wouldn’t suggest comparisons of Momentum with more sinister earlier organisations what cannot be denied is they are a very organised, viscous bunch of people totally dedicated to bringing far left politics into power. It is their sole ‘raison d’etre’. I am old enough to have known (and experienced) what ‘Militant Tendency’ could get up to and it was pretty frightening. Ask Liverpool what they did there…. But Momentum are far more of a threat as they hide behind the t’internet, multiple profile names and have a bank of trigger phrases they keep firing out.… Read more »

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

I am a member of momentum Chris and you could not be more wrong about me.

Just leave it.

Tim
Guest
Tim

Corbyn is a communist traitor who will sell the West at the drop of a hat. The economy will collapse weeks , so say goodbye to all your free stuff
, before he is elected and that’s if the US / UK and NATO deep establishment allow him to survive. He is Putins wet dream.

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Ok Sole. Just to say you and Chris are my fav posters here as you both argue your points equally well, which seem at opposite ends of the political spectrum. I agree though there are always exceptions, and not all are the same, example recently you said you have quite right wing views on things like immigration, which I appreciate as i appreciated as I have those views myself. I naturally agree with most of what Chris says in most fields, but appreciate and agree also with many of your posts and for the record although I see myself with… Read more »

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

I’ll reply to you Daniele as you have shown a bit of respect thank you, I don’t have a problem with any criticism of anyone in Labour i will always gladly debate it, but getting compared to the Hitler youth and accused of being a “vicious thug” just immediately make me lose all respect of anyone as they could not be more wrong. Ok I will go through the points Chris made. “cannot be denied is they are a very organised, viscous bunch of people totally dedicated to bringing far left politics into power. It is their sole ‘raison d’etre’.”… Read more »

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) solesurvivor – Right lets get a few thing done here; * I never abused you or called you a liar and yet you dish out the phrase easily when challenged. I never lied. An apology isn’t expected although some weeks ago you did do so and I accepted. * As it happens I do NOT read the fucking Daily Mail OK? But you’re labelling me as such proves my point because you do exactly what Momentum do – dish out derogatory labels to attack the person and deflect the challenge. PATHETIC! The Corbyn / wreath story is all… Read more »

Mr Bell
Guest
Mr Bell

Blimey I fell asleep reading that reply mate. I thought I could go on a bit.
Keep the debate going chaps if for no other reason than we are all at least passionate about what we believe in.
Cheers

Daniele Mandelli
Guest
Daniele Mandelli

Thank you Sole.

On nationalisation, Trident and Foreign policy we are in agreement.

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

“I never abused you or called you a liar and yet you dish out the phrase easily when challenged” I never said you did abuse me, I called you a liar because you lied calling me viscous and a lunatic thug. “As it happens I do NOT read the fucking Daily Mail OK” But the story originated from the Daily Mail so it is entirely reasonable to bring up the mail when discussing the issue that originated in that paper, ok you got it from somewhere else so what, it originated in the Daily mail so that is what it’s… Read more »

expat
Guest
expat

Sole, you obviously very passionate about Labour and dear old Jeremy. But your tending to use your own arguments against yourself. “adding the “far” before left and right is just a tool to try delegitimize the debate or argument.” Then you quote “And that Daniele is why momentum gets vilified by the right wing press,” Quite frankly both mainstream parties are unfit to run the country. There a major changes coming over the next few decades and neither party has the ability to prepare the country for the challenges ahead. We need a new party which is not tied to… Read more »

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

Expat You have copy and pasted what I said so you must of read it twice surely. “adding the “far” Then i said “by the right wing press” For your point to make sense I would of had to added “far” before right wing, which I never. Come on mate. I don’t think they have ideologies of the past, both are moving towards new Keynesian economics which should limit a fallout in a financial crisis. Both have different policies in growing the economy. “Nationalisation and taxation will not make the UK competitive” Labour are proposing Nationalising services which are Nationalised… Read more »

expat
Guest
expat

Nationalisation on its own won’t work as there’s nothing to drive efficiency (productivity). Let take the trains as an example. We need driverless trains (Singapore Dubai etc have them) Labour not only want to keep the driver but add more guards, that’s not productivity improvement as now we have more people doing a job where with investment we could have none. Its not about Labour, Tories don’t have cooking clue either just leave it to the free market, well that’s not working either. Holding up other countries as examples of Nationalisation doesn’t mean its right. I’m not against nationalisation but… Read more »

Richard Miller
Guest
Richard Miller

hi just out of interest do you believe we should be spending this money on our Nation’s defence.

Chris
Guest
Chris

(Chris H) Solesurvivor – No i won’t ‘leave it’. You have made some pretty forthright statements on this Thread and I have a right to put forward my rebuttals. if you are a member of Momentum then you are judged by the company you keep. Please therefore justify the deliberate and virulent antisemitic abuse hurled at excellent MPS like Luciana Berger and Margaret Hodge and while you are at it defend the abuse hurled at the excellent Frank Field. A man who voted as his constituents and his lifelong politics told him to. And please justify why Corbyn himself has… Read more »

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

Chris is it Labour members who have been expelled or disciplined for antisemitism, I cant find anywhere a momentum member being accused of antisemitism, the momentum founder has even received antisemitic abuse. You say viscous and lunatic thugs then fail to back that up. I said leave it not because of any of you “rebuttals” it was because you called me viscous and a lunatic thug, where is your evidence of that behavior? And please stop using twitter abuse of MP’s as an example, tory MP’s get loads of abuse also, death and rape threats, so does that make all… Read more »

ProfEsser
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ProfEsser

As a German, and well versed in this continent’s “problematic” (euphemism) history, I’ve now lived in the UK for more than 8 years and watched the changing political landscape with great alarm. I’m also a Brexit supporter – which you may consider as ironic but the principle that I stand up for what is right is more important to me than any impact it may have on my family – because I’ve observed the anti-democratic forces at work in the EU first hand since they bullied the Irish to overturn a referendum result (I lived there in the early 2000’s… Read more »

Rob
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Rob

The biggest problem for Labour and momentum is that a large part of the electorate see Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell as unelectable. Until that changes then they will not be voted in with a majority and more than likely will be second to the Tories. Abbott in particular is a liability and should have been sidelined long ago.

Personally I would like to see a new party formed. Elements of both main parties must feel alienated by their shifts to the right and left, leaving the centre as fertile ground.

expat
Guest
expat

Agree, we need a new party. There are 3 types of voters in the UK 2 of them will always vote and defend their party irrespective of what the party would do to the UK. They will never vote for the other part irrespective of any good that party could do. The type is willing to listen and make an decision based on the arguments presented. Its import for defence because we need to prosper so we can afford to defend ourselves should the time come. We need defence spending on high tech industries that allow us to create commercial… Read more »

Chris
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Chris

(Chris H) expat – You are right of course. But what you described as ‘third’ are actually the usual floating voter. The ones who are indeed influenced and will change or abstain. Not sure that is any basis for a Centre Party though ..

expat
Guest
expat

Chris, there’s far more in this central ground than before as the ground has widened. There’s enough to make difference.

Andrew Fortune
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Andrew Fortune

Main problem we have is that if that carrier sorties it has effectively the entire surface fleet with it. Theres nothing spare for any other task…. And that tomahawk strike on the Syrian airbase was extremely disappointing.. A lot of missiles either got lost, or were shot down – both very worrying..
Perhaps we should develop some drones for the carriers, at least in the interim?

Bill
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Bill

Lee1 and solesurvivor. Just get a room you couple of jerks or better still your own site so you can just bitch at each other. Politics and the military. Discuss! Whatever next? Grow up!

Benjamin Rule
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Benjamin Rule

Interesting article on superb new ships and aircraft and how they work together. Then the comments section descends into slanging match about politics and accusations of behaving like Nazis. What is it about the internet that makes that happen?!

Andy G
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Andy G

Ukdj, can we add some threads to this forum so the people here can have their arguments outside of the stories?

Its decending into a farce, i just want to hear the news and some informed opinion it

Airborne
Guest
Airborne

Wow, i do like to read the comments here, but solesurvivor you totaly overreacted on this one, swearing and gobbing off. “You should learn some f**king respect”, bloody hell who the do you think you are? Not a good example of the contributions on here of you lefties is it pal? While i dont think politics should be much of a discussion point on here, obviously politics has an impact on defence. However Lee has a right to comment and you have a right to reply, however your intial replies do show a level of nastinees, which does seem to… Read more »

John West
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John West

Jesus. How the hell did an article on the QEC F35B landing technique descend into political infighting? I rely on you guys, for your technical knowledge, your understanding of combat and operational difficulties. Is Labour going to be the strongest supporter of the armed forces? Probably not. They were bloody good on Education, the NHS and social stuff though. They did, however, conceive the QEC, T45 and T26. Are the Tories the prime defender of the armed forces? No, their record is actually pretty poor – although I do think Williamson is heading in the right direction (Gove, Johnson, Mogg,… Read more »

Ian
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Ian

If you want to know why Lee isn’t so wide of the mark; who said this? ‘Capitalism has learned nothing from recent events and wants to learn nothing, because it places its own interests ahead of those of the other millions. Can one blame those millions for standing up for their own interests, and only for those interests? Can one blame them for striving to forge an international community whose purpose is the struggle against corrupt capitalism?’ Joseph Goebbels Sorry to break it to you but those that believe the Socialism in National Socialism wasn’t Socialism do not understand their… Read more »

SoleSurvivor
Guest
SoleSurvivor

The Nazis called themselves the ‘National Socialists’, and they even nicked some (incredibly benign) socialist policies, however the name is inaccurate, a bit like the world series or North Korea being called the “Democratic People’s Republic of Korea” The Nazis were fascists. Indisputably. They drew their ideology from Italy’s fascists. Mussolini gave us the first fascist platform – racial superiority, rearmament & expansion, and consolidation of capital. The Italian Fascists used Roman imagery, such as the ‘fasces’, to evoke renewed national pride & a sense of superiority. The wanted to expand & reclaim historically Italian lands (mirroring a large portion… Read more »

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Can we stop now, I can do a bit of OT with the best of them, but you have buggered this thread.

Chris, Sole, Lee…….you’ve got different views, that’s fine, debate a bit on the impact of the right and left on defence spending and priorities but please don’t fight and insult each other or spam your arguments on a public site we all use, this thread feels like an ED on a Saturday night……….

John Clark
Guest
John Clark

Agreed, cease fire, cease fire! Entrenched views that will never be reconciled in a 1000 years of tinterweb debate.

Perhaps we could all agree that all politians are self serving egosentric narcissists ….. And generally terrible people…

Now back to SRVL

Helions
Guest
Helions

“Amen”

Now, “How BOUT them Braves”???

Jonathan
Guest
Jonathan

Hold on there John, I’ve been a “local” politician myself and I did it for the same reason I picked my career, as a way to serve the greater good.

I Would not have half as much PTSD and made twice the money if I’d gone down the self serving rout in my younger days.

Blimey now I think about it what a mug I’m I (well a smug, feel good about myself Mug).

trackback

[…] Some info for you RCAF and Naval folks: https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/the-unique-way-f-35-jets-will-land-on-hms-queen-elizabeth/ […]

Matt
Guest
Matt

Christ…that went downhill fast.

I come on here (admittedly so far as a lurker rather than a poster) to read the well-informed opinions on the stories covered. I’d seriously suggest posters keep the political car crash discussion for another site, unless it’s directly relevant to the actual story.