Uniquely for a vessel of this type, it will be common to see the jump-jet F-35 appear to land conventionally on-board HMS Queen Elizabeth.

This is a process called Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing. It is a process designed to land jump-jet aircraft that uses both the vertical thrust from the jet engine and lift from the wings, thus maximising the payload an aircraft can return with and stopping the financial waste that comes with dropping expensive weaponry in the sea in order to land vertically.

Another operational advantage of this technique is that it can increase the landing payload capacity of a V/STOL aircraft, which can be restricted when it lands vertically.

It can also reduce the level of wear on the lift engines and extend their operational life. Similarly, it can reduce the amount of wear upon the deck surface of a carrier caused by the downward jet exhaust from vertical landings.

SRVL landing is under development for use with the F-35B when it enters service with the Royal Navy in 2018. Rolling landings will enable the F-35B to land on these carriers with an increased weapon and fuel load and will use the aircraft’s computer controlled disc brakes.

The Queen Elizabeth class mark a change from expressing carrier power in terms of number of aircraft carried, to the number of sortie’s that can be generated from the deck. The class are not the largest class of carrier in the world but they are most likely the smallest and least expensive carrier the Royal Navy could build which still have the advantages that large carriers offer.

101 COMMENTS

  1. I wonder why they didn’t include an angled flight deck? Even though shes a STOVL carrier, you’d think having an angled flight deck would still be useful for landing without interrupting launches. The only reason I can think of is that the launch area extends so far along the ship that an angled deck wouldn’t make a difference

    • The point of an angled deck is that it allows bolters (i.e. missed landings) without risk to those on the forward deck. That simply isn’t required for either VL or SRVL.

    • you’d think it’d allow jets to take off and land simultaneously, with the current design it looks like its one or the other.

    • The existing deck is the very same size and dimensions as the early variant that had an angled deck painted on it. That’s the only difference: they painted the landing zone longitudinally instead of at an angle. That, and they removed the round-down at the stern because they weren’t considering CTOL anymore. The current deck is big enough to have one painted on. Just not using cats and traps.

  2. I have to tip my hat to the designers. I have often expressed criticism of the size of the QE’s. But I was wrong and they have been proved right. Now we need to get the air group they deserve. At least 24 peacetime and 36 F35 in wartime.

  3. David- each of the 2 carriers needs to be able to be deployed with at least 36 F35Bs in a wartime deployment and at least 24 in peacetime. Although rapid reinforcement via air was proven in the Falklands to work.
    We have to get this done- more F35Bs- enough for both carriers to deploy in crises/ wartime- so that is 2x 36 and then some left for RAF and UK defence tasking – so another 24-36- that leaves the active fleet as 108 at least- we have to get on and order more of these amazing jets and not let inter service rivalry and the RAF destroy this once in a generation chance to deliver a truelly world beating carrier strike package.
    Great ships, hopefully Williamson can squeeze some more money out of spreadsheet Phil- especially as economy is growing, unemployment is down to lowest figure since 1970 and we are leaving the EU and need to ensure our own robust defence.
    I am not sure with the peace dividend having been massively harvested by our EU allies that they would offer anything other than hot air and platitudes in a real conflict. only the French have retained anything like a capable rounded armed forces and they have like us some glaring deficits such as heavy lift and air transport. Whilst we have no maritime patrol aircraft and inadequate numbers of frigates, destroyers and submarines. All courtesy of the past and present Con-Lib coalition and current Tory party.
    Time to get building and sort the mess out- would not take much £2-4 billion a year more to defence sustained over the next 10 years, job done.

      • Hi David- why not a larger F35B fleet than typhoon fleet?- the typhoon fleet is too small.
        7 frontline squadrons each with just 12 aircraft is a pitifully low force level.
        SDSR stated a commitment to “at least 135 aircraft over the course of the programme” why not get more than 135? no reason why not.
        The fleet air arm probably should have 4 squadrons (48 aircraft) at its disposal and not allow RAF interservice rivalry to impact its ability to deploy a fully equipped and armed QE carrier with 36 F35Bs on board.
        Williamson needs to have sight of the issue of RAF interservice rivalry and not allow the RAF to purchase the A version. STOVL is where we should be.
        Airfields can be knocked out- STOVL cannot be prevented from launching.
        Look what happened to the Syrian primary airbase (supposedly protected by the Russian S400 SAM system) hit by 40+ cruise missiles- total cost to US and allies of strike £40+ million. Damage done to Syrian airbase billions. 80% of all infrastructure, aircraft shelters and support buildings destroyed, 30% of the Syrian airforces active air fleet destroyed.
        That is why STOVL is far superior to conventionally launched jets.
        Unless of course we are going to build loads of complex multiple runway airfields and have adequate dispersal in times of risk of conflict so typhoon and F35A’s cannot be caught on the ground. The opposite is true the MOD is consolidating its base numbers and moving more and more squadrons into super bases which are dotted around the UK but low in numbers. Any opponent like Russia could launch a first strike using cruise missiles and if they successfully hit 10-12 RAF/Fleet air arm and army air corps bases with enough force the RAF would be out of action.
        Just an observation, we can debate strategic potential and likelihood of such an attack, hopefully it would never happen but the fact you can conceive this area of concern means it must also be known to the MOD and our potential enemies.
        STOVL, UAV, drones and carriers are the future.

    • I am not sure blaming the conservatives/coalition is alone is telling the story. Under Labour (and their pacifist leader) I am not sure it would have been any better and possibly a lot worse. Labour overspent by a hell of a lot (I saw this first hand working at a government agency at the time) and so cuts had to be made to make the countries finances viable again. I am not sure the cuts were made in the right way but I am sure Labour would have made much worse military cuts if they had stayed in power.

      • Agreed, there was a serious amount of money blown on failed projects like Nimrod, T45 the R2s, Astute. All of those issues date back to labour miss-management. Granted the Tories pissed a good bit away trying to convert the carriers to CATOBAR too late on, FRES and the Warrior mid life update have been nothing short of a mess.

        • There are lots of other cockups, Soothsayer for example.

          But Labour weren’t really to blame, the Astute issues were in part due to the gap in ordering any new nuc boats for years at the end of the Cold War, that was under the Conservatives, Type 45 also suffered from the stopping of build and the closure of Pyestock (the national GT test facility) under the Conservatives.

          All of the 5 dreadful Defence ‘reviews’ in the post war period that have gutted the military were held under the Conservatives….the only decent ones were under Labour.

      • Corbyns committed to 2% but he will be spending it on peace keeping and purchasing any equipment that keeps the unions happy. Perhaps more support vessels and OPV to pick up migrants in the med and bring them to the UK.

      • Why are you defending an argument by comparing a government in power to a hypothetical government? do you realise how stupid that is Lee?

        • Historically there hasn’t been much to choose between Lab and Con govts. But Mr Corbyn is at best a pacifist. His priorities would be the same as the for example shipbuilding unions not the RN. Where they coincide everyone will win. Where they don’t the Unions will win.

  4. Blair ordered the two carriers but got us into two suicidally
    expensive wars which the treasurary (Brown )got it’s own back by starving the forces.
    Blairs biggest crime was not allowing the army to order vital equipment as it would have given away his dirty deal with Bush. Not realising the kit had long delivery lead times only increases their culpability .

  5. Corbyn can never become our PM, I mean seriously? He wants to scrap our nuclear deterrent, is never be prepared to press the nuclear button even if the UK was a radioactive wasteland. He has visited the graves and laid a memorial wreath for a killed Islamic terrorist. All pretty bad signs of leadership. If Corbyn ever becomes the UK prime minister that is the time we really should run to the hills, dig a big hole, fortify said hole and live out your lives in sanctuary away from the madness in the world.
    I would hope the UK population would not be so stupid as to vote Corbyn in. He has not got a single policy I would happily vote for. Utterly devoid of innovation, fresh ideas and a willingness to invest in the UK, strengthen our armed forces and ensure that the primary responsibility of the UK government is fulfilled- that of protecting the state and its citizens.

    • The younger generation love him, there’s very active social media campaigns to debunk many of these stories and they’re working. They paint the mainstream media article as right wing conspiracies. There’s a very good chance he will be the next PM.

      • Indeed. Momentum are deeply dangerous. They are using tactics like Trump has been using successfully by painting anyone that disagrees with their “Facts” as oppressors and enemies of humanity. Momentum are massively militant and that is not a good thing for anyone long term. They remind me a little of Hitler Youth… (They are clearly not identical but are moving towards the same sort of tactics).

        • Shut your mouth Lee you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about, constantly bringing politics into this blog attacking labour and comparing momentum to the Hitler youth you absolute fool.

          Why do you keep running away when i challenge you on it?

          • I have not run away from anything, I am still here. I went on lunch a little while ago if that is what you mean… I also did not realise you were in the office with me in order to challenge me? I have not seen you challenge me on anything…

            However I will agree to a duel at dawn if you like…

            I also did not bring up the politics, I was replying to others. You should learn to read properly.

          • You should learn some fucking respect, some regular contributors on here are labour members/supporters, some are even momentum members which I told you last time, I replied under another one of your comments on another article telling you to reply and you never.

            And while others might be talking political you’re being highly disrespectful to compare people to the Hitler youth for fucks sake, which is the second time you have done it.

            In what way do i compare to the Hitler Youth? what tactics do I use that is comparable to the Hitler Youth?

          • I do not have to pay any respect to someone who speaks to people like you do. And if you want to know how you compare then just look at the way you reply to any criticism…

            You might want to shut me up but I live in a free country whose people including my family have fought hard to keep free against the tyranny of both hard left and hard right dictators and having been in the forces myself I feel I have the right to my perfectly restrained comments. I have not once swore at you, but you show no such class and that reflects worse on you than it does me.

          • Comparing people to the Hitler youth is not a criticism Lee, it’s an insult.

            Surely you can understand that?

            I don’t have a racist bone in my in body, I want men and women to be in control of the Labour party who I agree with politically, I have been involved momentum sessions that talk politics and have never heard any racism at all, it’s all regional at the last one we were talking bin collections for christ sake.

            I just don’t understand this hatred for a group of people just because they have different politics than you.

          • I compared the loosely to Hitler Youth. I specifically said that they are not the same. The way in which they are operating politically is on the same wavelength. They are not murderers but then politics has changed.

            I also imagine that at a small person level they are simply a sounding board and that is probably what you see from day to day. However nearer the top they are clearly a lot more than that. To be honest anything describing itself as a Political Movement is not okay by me. Anyone supporting Militant Union tactics is also not okay by me.

            Also anyone that replies to comments by swearing is not worth my respect.

          • “The way in which they are operating politically is on the same wavelength”

            How? you have yet to give one example of how they are in any way related or the same or how they operate the same.

            Activate? that was the conservative answer to momentum after the last election, now that has transformed into young conservatives UK, and it has practically the same mission as Momentum, to engage the youth and keep the conservatives in power. So what is the problem with theirs?

            “To be honest anything describing itself as a Political Movement is not okay by me”

            Ok so you have a problem with womens suffrage, Brexit, civil rights and democracy??

            You know all those were political movements?

          • “The way in which they are operating politically is on the same wavelength”

            In what way? you have yet to describe one example in that they are in any way similar.

            “To be honest anything describing itself as a Political Movement is not okay by me”

            So you are against civil rights, womens suffrage, democracy and more recently Brexit? which are all political movements in the past and present.

            Anyone who compares me to a disgusting racist organisation and then fails to back it up with any proper examples certainly does not deserve any respect from me.

        • “They are using tactics like Trump has been using successfully by painting anyone that disagrees with their “Facts” as oppressors and enemies of humanity”

          Any examples Lee?

        • The Hitler youth used racism and Mein kampf as their ideology, did assault course training, military tactics and weapons training, was used to break up the Church, wore uniforms, membership was mandatory for 10 to 18 year olds that’s why it had 8 million in it.

          Please do explain how they are similar?

          • They are similar in the way they are the foot soldiers for their leader and are attempting to take over the Labour party by inserting their people into all key positions. And lets talk about racism… I mean Momentum are not exactly against a little antisemitism are they? And anyone that disagrees with Corbyn or criticises him ends up under investigation while those shouting racist drivel are free from investigation. There is no need for military tactics in the days of social media and fake news.

            As for manipulating the news

            Lets take the latest debacle as an example.

            Corbyn pictured with wreath at a monument to a terrorist who murdered Israelis at the Munich Olympics. His office (Momentum) then lies about this and given more evidence Corbyn has to admit he was there but tries to spin it in a way that means he was not a part of it. (Despite the evidence to the contrary and despite his own comments in a paper at the time discussing the ceremony). Basically according to Corbyn, history is wrong and we should only believe his “Facts”.

          • All political party members campaign for their leader and their party, obviously you not being on that side of politics you would not understand the position of Labour since Tony Blair.

            The Labour NEC and the PLP are in the middle of the political spectrum, some even say they are centre right, as they carried on a lot of conservative policies.

            When Corbyn got voted in overwhelmingly momentum was formed to help turn Labour back into a left wing political party, it’s a political grassroots movement looking to engage the youth, that even conservative supporters admit that the right of politics and the conservative party need something similar to increase the conservative youth vote.

            They are not in any way comparable to the fucking Hitler youth, your example is because they are trying to take over the Labour party, how did the Hitler Youth try to take over the NAZI party? you gave that as an example of similarity wtf??

            “I mean Momentum are not exactly against a little antisemitism are they”

            Actually they are totally against it, and any member accused of anti semitism is investigated, who are free from investigation?

            And yes lets talk about the latest debacle shall we??

            Can you tell me the name of the munich terrorist that is buried at Hamman Chatt??

            You are seriously using the Daily Mail as an argument winner, a newspaper that did actually support the NAZI party, a newspaper that has to print apologies every week.

            Hamman Chott cemetery is the Palestinian national cemetery in Tunisia, where all Palestinians not allowed to be repatriated by Israel are buried.

            Salah Khalaf, whose grave is one of those at the centre of the Mail smear, was the Palestinian Liberation Organisation’s number two after its then-leader Yasser Arafat. Khalaf was assassinated in Tunis in 1991 and as a prominent Palestinian his grave is in a prime location in the cemetery. Khalaf was accused by Israel of being linked to Black September but always denied it.

            Similarly, Atef Bseiso, the PLO’s liaison officer with foreign intelligence agencies, was assassinated in Paris in 1992. He was a regular contact of the CIA and other agencies and although at the time some claimed he was assassinated by the Israelis, many now believe he was killed by another Palestinian faction because it objected to his discussions with the US and Israel about peace.

            The terrorists who carried out the Munich attack were killed in Munich. None is buried in Hamman Chatt.

            Corvyn did not lay wreath on the grave of either Bseiso or Khalaf. He was at a Palestine conference in Tunis sponsored by Tunisian president. Delegates took a wreath from conference to cemetery to pay respects to the Palestinian struggle and those killed in the 1985 Israeli bombing raid – people who included Palestinian and Tunisian civilians.

          • “Mr Corbyn has denied commemorating the terrorists but pictures of the event show him standing at the foot of their graves.”

            five of them are buried in Libya, two are in unmarked graves, and one is still alive.

            That was from the original Mail article, which even though that exact same picture was released during the last general election, the IRA was bigger fish at the time so that picture was used a few times.

            Then almost by magic, at the height of turmoil in the party with anti-semitism, it appears again on the front page of the Mail, and the main basis of the article is a lie, but it does not matter now because the damage has been done. That is how a political smear works it’s nothing new.

          • Apart from the fact that he is pictured by a totally different memorial which is some distance from the one he claims to have been at…

            Yep keep believing his “FACTS” all you like. Trump is doing this with great success to the point his supporters now refuse to believe anything that is not said by him even if he contradicts himself.

            As for Momentum and Antisemitism. Jackie Walker was indeed kicked out but is now back at the top. That is certainly sticking to morals…

            Charley Allan is also a momentum member who was inserted into council leadership and openly supports antisemitic views.

            Momentum are undemocratic. During the Corbyn election they were powerful enough to prevent other labour candidates from talking at rallies. And now apparently they require new members to sign a
            pro corbyn loyalty test!

            You are free to think what you like but so am I and I think that Momentum are Dangerous to our democracy.

          • I thought we were talking about the current debacle?

            I asked what Munich terrorists are buried at Hamman Chatt?

            Jackie walker is not back at the top, she got kicked out and stayed out, why are you making stuff up? and what she said was hardly ant semitic, you do know she is Jewish don’t you?

            Charley Allan got into an argument about Hamas, again he is Jewish and criticizes Israel.

            How are momentum undemocratic? They never existed during Corbyns election? or do you mean the second? what candidate did they prevent from talking and at what rally?

          • Jacky Walker is not Jewish. She was born to a catholic and was brought up and baptised as a catholic…

            She was excluded from the labour party but reinstated 3 weeks later. She was removed as the vice chair of momentum but is still a member and still on their steering committee.

            I think you need to read all of Charley Allan’s posts and comments.

            He also supports Hamas, an organisation that is homophobic and full of murderers. Now I am not saying Israel has clean hands either but two wrongs don’t make a right and supporting a Terrorist group is not what I expect of British Politicians and mainstream parties.

            The ceremony that Corbyn Attended and laid a wreath at was immediately next to the graves of Salah Khalaf, Fakhri al-Omari and Hayel Abdel-Hamid. Three people involved in the Munich Olympics attack who were subsequently assassinated by Mossad in Tunis. Their graves are labeled as the three martyrs and Corbyn confirmed that they were part of the memorial ceremony. The Memorial for the bombing victims was a little further away. The Wreath that Corbyn was holding apparently ended up on the graves of the three Terrorists and not at the foot of the Bombing Victims memorial. However no matter what actually happened he was clearly at a memorial ceremony that was for both the bombing victims and the terrorists as it was joint ceremony and Corbyn confirmed that at the time in a piece he wrote for the communist paper, the morning star. So he knew full well that it was a joint ceremony. To suggest otherwise is a lie.

          • “Jacky Walker is not Jewish. She was born to a catholic and was brought up and baptised as a catholic…”

            Jesus wept, Jewish identity is also defined through ethnicity not just religion for goodness sake.

            “Walker is of mixed Jewish and African descent.[1] Her father was a Russian Jew and that she was born of a Jamaican mother of Jewish heritage”

            Charley Allan is not a British politician, the controversy over him is because he was arguing over Hamas, the problem with this is that when is it ok to start talking to a proscribed terrorist group who have got a political wing and get most votes in there country?

            When was it ok for us to start talking to the IRA after their atrocities? sometimes to get peace you have no other choice.

            I don’t agree with Hamas, but they are the elected power in the Gaza strip, they released a new charter last year that is trying to moderate it’s image, and i still don’t like them because i’m not a fan of any muslim fundamentalist ideology, just like Saudi Arabia’s.

            But ultimately to achieve peace in Palestine we need to sit down and talk to Hamas, Fatah and the Israeli government on disarming Hamas and try get some sort of two state solution.

            Just like our government had to sit down with the IRA and talk.

            “Salah Khalaf, Fakhri al-Omari and Hayel Abdel-Hamid. Three people involved in the Munich Olympics attack who were subsequently assassinated by Mossad in Tunis”

            Well all three were shot and killed by a Palestinian gunman for their links to the CIA, they were not “assasinated by Mossad”

            You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about as you keep getting things wrong. A massive thing like that as well, operation wooden leg was the Israeli retaliation to a hijacking off the Israeli coast. The three you mentioned were killed in 1991, the Israeli attack was in 1985.

            “Three people involved in the Munich Olympics attack”

            How were they involved in the Munich attack? we will probably never know who masterminded it, all three along with scores of others were continuously accused of having links to the Munich massacre and they always denied it.

            You are getting basic facts wrong and are actually preaching these lies as the truth, it’s gone from the actual terrorists who did the attack, to the three who had links to the attack which were never proven, you’re saying they were assassinated by Mossad when they were not. Israel only ever accused them of having links but they never had proof, if they did have proof they would of assassinated them themselves.

            Anything else?

          • You claimed Jacky Walker was no longer part of Momentum. She is and she is on their steering committee!

            As for talking with Terrorists. Yes governments should be doing so in a balanced way. There is no evidence that Charley Allen has sat down with leaders of all sides. There is no evidence that Corbyn has done so either. It is also possible to attempt to broker peace without openly supporting the terrorist groups!

            As for Salah Khalaf, he was the suspected mastermind of the Munich Massacre! He was second in command and Head of Intelligence of the PLO and second in command of Fatah!

            As for getting facts wrong. Yes I got it wrong about who killed them. However Corbyn got information wrong about the ceremony at the time he was there!
            You also claimed that Jacky Walker was kicked permanently out of Momentum… So we can all make mistakes…

        • But i’m not arguing about Jackie Walker! it was you who brought her up under the banner of antisemitism even though she is Jewish herself, which you even tried to say she isn’t! I have just looked and momentum never removed her because of antisemitism, she was accused of antisemitic remarks by a pro Israeli group, it was like the last one with Corbyn, when they tried to paint him as antisemitic for sharing a stage with a guy who compared the current actions of Israel to the NAZIS, the guy who he shared a stage with was a bloody holocaust survivor!

          You started by comparing Momentum to the Hitler youth, which you still have not gave any rational, realistic or quite frankly sane comparison.

          The only connection you could think of is racism through antisemitism? and you bring up two Jewish people! Jackie walker and Charley Allen are Jewish, they have been part of Jewish groups before like Jewish voice for Labour.

          Do you know how easy it could be for me to google people accused of racism, homophobic or Islamophobic attacks who are linked to the conservatives? The Muslim council of Britain has just called for an investigation.

          Two actual conservative councilors were suspended last month because of it.

          Oh you know what the penny has dropped, the conservatives now remind me of the Hitler youth!

          You then moved onto Corbyn, and you have nearly got every single piece of information wrong, it’s been complete guesswork by you. Your story has changed three times.

          Here we go with some more misinformation.

          “As for Salah Khalaf, he was the suspected mastermind of the Munich Massacre!”

          No he was not it was Mohammed Oudeh, who is buried in Syria.

          From the BBC in 2010

          “Mohammed Oudeh, who has died in Damascus of kidney failure at the age of 73, was the Palestinian mastermind of the attack on Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics.”

          Google it.

          Salah Khalaf was only ever accused of having links to Black September, accused of being a founder, it was only ever an accusation, to which he always denied, And there was never any accusations that he masterminded the Munich terrorist attack.

          This is what happens when you go online into a debate and your main source of information, the actual source not where you have heard it from, is the Daily Mail, a newspaper that has to print retractions for telling lies on a weekly basis.

          I can easily use the internet and find articles and captions from books about Black September, the PLO, operation wooden leg etc, you clearly have not and are guessing based on what the newspapers are saying. If you actually delved into their claims and certainly original claims (the Daily Mail first said the terrorists were buried there) you would of not made so many mistakes with accusations that are false.

          And to top it off you previously said this (to which you still have not replied)

          “To be honest anything describing itself as a Political Movement is not okay by me”

          And i replied with this

          “So you are against civil rights, womens suffrage, democracy and more recently Brexit? which are all political movements in the past and present.”

          So you are against all political movements and is debating politics comparing people to the Hitler youth, with Daily Mail as your primary source.

          Politics is not really your forte is it Lee?

      • They were actually talking about that on sky news paper review last night. How Corbyn is channelling his inner Trump by denying news, then it plays to his supporters who cry “fake news” and “right wing media” etc etc.

        The problem is too many people believe it. Couple that with a potential massive swing away from the Conservatives back to UKIP (Brexit annoyance etc) and the like and we could be in trouble. A Corbyn government would decimate our economy as a whole, let alone defence.

        • It is actually frightening when you think of how realistic it is for him to be our next PM. I am hoping the events of last weekend will put a lot of middle of the road voters with even half a brain cell completely off him. The man is every bit a militant left as some of the most evil dictators in history just talks with a soft calm voice, but would happily use government force to strip individuals of their property because his socialist ideals are more fair than our own selfish individual opinions.

          • “The man is every bit a militant left as some of the most evil dictators in history”

            Don’t be silly

        • The tragedy of current british politics imo is the abandonment of the centre ground of political life by both major parties. I don’t consider either of them fit for government in their present state. This while we lurch through an existential crisis that is bigger than any issue facing the UK since the end of the second world war. There is a desperate need for an effective voice for middle ground political voters such as myself who feel disenfranchised by the major political parties. In recent years the lib dems provided that voice and prevented either of the main parties from moving too far from the centre ground but they are still paying a price for their time in office and won’t be back in the mainstream of british politics for a while yet I think. Until then we may be caught between two extremist opposing viewpoints both of which are dangerous and unwanted by the majority.

          Just saying…

          • I do think they have been unfairly blamed. Although I rarely voted for them they are important as you say. They had no choice but to abandon some of their policies when they were in coalition as that is how coalitions work. They had to work at getting as much of what they wanted as possible just as the Conservatives were working to get their policies through. I personally think that the coalition worked well in that time although I am not in favour of coalitions in general. It was certainly needed at the time though. I do hope they gain ground back as they did act as a damper for the other two parties and the fact they got replaced by UKIP was not a good moment for this country.

        • As a German, well versed in this continent’s “problematic” (euphemism) history, I’ve now lived in the UK for more than 8 years and watched the changing political landscape with great alarm. I’m also a Brexit supporter, which you may consider as ironic, but I’ve observed the anti-democratic forces at work in the EU first hand since they bullied the Irish to overturn a referendum result (I lived there in the early 2000’s for a few years) and I really hope the British people don’t allow themselves to be bullied in the same way.

          That being my introduction to this discussion, I have to agree with anyone who calls out Corbyn and his foot soldiers (disguised as pacifists) – their tactics are no different from Nazi or Communist tactics to suppress all dissent and twist facts to suit their agenda, much like Trump. For all May’s weaknesses, she at least allows different views to be held and expressed and is prepared to debate their merits. Corbyn quote frankly scares me because he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing and so few seem to realise this.

          Getting back to the topic of national defense, Corbyn would do just as other posters wiser than I have pointed out – keep the unions happy but decimate any real deterrent our defense capability, which is a terrible mistake considering the times we live in. I’d also like to see more done for social welfare but I’m not falling for Corbyn’s smooth talking. Sadly I can’t vote to register my dissent, but I hope you all do.

      • Corbyn DIDN’T visit a terrorists grave, stop listening to right wing mental cases and trouble makers and as for defence the only time UK armed forces are not under threat of almost treacherous cuts is when a Labour government is running the show.

  6. Not sure why we never fitted traps to the carriers. Cats would have been expensive and EMALS was unproven. But traps would have given more flexibility around AEW and COD.

    Also, why not look at a F35D, remove the VL capability and dedicated it as a SRVL version. Rolls develop a smaller lift fan giving more capacity for payload and use F35C wings to give more lift and compensate for the smaller fan. Rolls can probably get the same lift from a small fan these days as tech has moved on. If there could be a way of using the lift fan as a reverse thruster this would prevent breke wear and reduce risk when the deck in wet.

    • Expat- good ideas- something for the future- the F35 programme is in its infancy- it will develop more models in the future including a growler electronic warfare platform, possibly with passive/ active sensors and jamming and possibly a reduced size STOVL version as you outlined.
      I guess the reason no D version is available now is development costs- tens of billions have already been spent and the armaments industry now want to sell aircraft to recuperate their costs. Meanwhile politically because so much money governmental R+D money has been spent the military have to purchase what is available now.
      I would look to tempest aircraft and the future of British military aircraft engineering. We have to get that programme going and see what we can deliver at reduced price using proven off the shelf technology. I think we have a real chance to sell hundreds possibly thousands of a 6th gen aircraft if the weapons, sensors, engines and platform have the required innovative fit. The UK is the worlds best innovative country- some 85% of all inventions and new ideas come out of the UK. that is a statistical fact. unfortunately we also have a rich history of not supporting this innovation and therefore our inventors have to go abroad and sell their ideas to international corporations who then make billions of what should be UK patents.

      • I agree, there would have been more chance if the project was not massively over budget. The best chance of a D version would have to come from the US marines. UK will not be able to commit to the development costs. However I don’t think the costs would be that high as it would mainly be fan and centre fuselage redevelopment, the wings are already available, that assumes roll posts are not required on the D version.

        • “But traps would have given more flexibility around AEW and COD.”

          COD will be carried out by the CMV-22 in the USN in due course. No Greyhounds will be in service in 5 years. CMV-22 can obviously land on the QE Class..

    • They were not designed in as the Government at the time decided against it for some reason. It was later brought back as an idea but was seen as far too expensive to redesign. They should have been fitted but I am not sure we should have gone for the F35C. The F35B gives us a very high rate of sorties. The Cats would have meant that we had the choice though…

      • Not sure we need CATS and traps.
        F35B, Merlin and a small force of UAV’s, drones as well as the new tilt rotor aircraft and we could still have a comparable force to a US carrier.
        CATS and traps would have cost the QE class programme £billions and billions more. the power plant in the QE’s is powerful but “only” produces I think 114 megawatts- a Ford class produces over 600 megawatts because it needs that for its EMALS (electro-magnetic aircraft launch system) SO the QE’s fitted with cats and traps would need more power production and generators

        • As far as I know it would not have added massive costs if it was designed at the start. It was going to cost Billions to add it in later due for the need to redesign large portions of the ship. It would certainly have been more expensive but I am not sure it would have been astronomical.

      • We don’t necessarily need CATS but arrestor gear would not have cost the earth and we would of had CTOL as a option. Traps would have given us a few more options and some flexibility.

        • I don’t think Traps are of any real use without CATS. The thrust to weight ratio would have to be huge to make it viable and that means something else will have been compromised.

          • Not necessarily, C0D for example, you can land a fully loaded aircraft and then take off with a lighter payload, you need the whole deck to takeoff though. They actually landed C130 on a carrier. The Chinese and Russians also operate without CATS.
            SAAB were toying with a Gripen naval variant that could take off unassisted from the QE but needed arrestors to land. Drones would certainly offer good potential for arrested landings in the future with the light airframes.

            Its not optimal but it does give more options and I don’t think it would have increase the costs much.

    • Stay with the F35B was genius, one of the very big problems with cat and trap carriers is ensuring you have carrier qualified pilots, only the US have the mass to ensure they have the right number of qualified pilots. It’s an ongoing problem for the French.

      If we had cats and traps the airwing we had would be it, if it was 12 it would stay 12, with the F35B we can qualify pilots in weeks, moving from an air wing of 12 to 36 ( or beyond) with relative ease.

  7. 1/ This landing technique is untested in terms of actual carrier landings so for all the simulated data we are still facing an unknown.

    2/ There is zero chance of two carriers ever being deployed with solely uk jets . The reason ? We want the US strategically reliant on these carriers so they will always carry a deployment of USMC jets. In a time of crisis 50% will be USMC .

    • On point 2 if there is a situation that both carriers are deployed we are in serious s*** indeed and will be with allues so I’m happy to have our closest military allies on hand with superior resources of which we benefit.

      Almost all other occasions only one QEC is deployed with a full airgroup.

      One point 1 I’m confident all will be fine.

      • We would be better bringing USN personnel to help create a reserve of sailors able to spin up the at port carrier in a time of crisis.

        Despite what people think, USN carriers and sub numbers are thin on the ground considering the threat areas and the fact the Chinese are now pushing into the Atlantic.

  8. (Chris H) On a lighter note I see 820 NAS have now embarked all their Merlins on to QE in Portsmouth.

    She will be gone soon enough …

  9. (Chris H) Solesurvivor – while i wouldn’t suggest comparisons of Momentum with more sinister earlier organisations what cannot be denied is they are a very organised, viscous bunch of people totally dedicated to bringing far left politics into power. It is their sole ‘raison d’etre’.

    I am old enough to have known (and experienced) what ‘Militant Tendency’ could get up to and it was pretty frightening. Ask Liverpool what they did there…. But Momentum are far more of a threat as they hide behind the t’internet, multiple profile names and have a bank of trigger phrases they keep firing out. And despite what you say they are indeed playing the ‘Fake News’ card for all they are worth. either that of the Race Card to shut down any migration debate. Lammy and Abbott being the past masters at that. The simple fact Corbyn refuses to shut them down says all we need to know about this man who laid a bloody wreath at the graves of terrorists who murdered innocent athletes in Munich! And don’t even get me started on his love of the IRA. Or is this also ‘fake News’?

    Corbyn is a die hard far left ideologist. Always was and always will be. He frequently shows signs he actually dislikes this country and his best mat McDonnell has openly declared his Communist credentials. Labour as currently led is an existential threat to the security and economic wellbeing of this country if it ever got into power. As a democrat I am sad for that.

    Momentum is a very dangerous bunch and while I disagree with your politics I defend your right to express them as you please. But I will never defend this bunch of lunatic thugs’ rights to do what they are doing and I am surprised you seem to be doing just that…

      • Corbyn is a communist traitor who will sell the West at the drop of a hat. The economy will collapse weeks , so say goodbye to all your free stuff
        , before he is elected and that’s if the US / UK and NATO deep establishment allow him to survive. He is Putins wet dream.

      • Ok Sole.

        Just to say you and Chris are my fav posters here as you both argue your points equally well, which seem at opposite ends of the political spectrum.

        I agree though there are always exceptions, and not all are the same, example recently you said you have quite right wing views on things like immigration, which I appreciate as i appreciated as I have those views myself.

        I naturally agree with most of what Chris says in most fields, but appreciate and agree also with many of your posts and for the record although I see myself with mostly right wing views *some of my views are more left and on some things I actually agree with Corbyn, heaven forbid. May people have mercy on me!

        Corbyn, Abbott McDonnell et all what’s your response to the points Chris made about them?
        They certainly don’t seem to have the more right sided views on immigration controls that you have? You’re a momentum member, defend them?

        • I’ll reply to you Daniele as you have shown a bit of respect thank you, I don’t have a problem with any criticism of anyone in Labour i will always gladly debate it, but getting compared to the Hitler youth and accused of being a “vicious thug” just immediately make me lose all respect of anyone as they could not be more wrong.

          Ok I will go through the points Chris made.

          “cannot be denied is they are a very organised, viscous bunch of people totally dedicated to bringing far left politics into power. It is their sole ‘raison d’etre’.”

          The only thing he got right was “very organised” because momentum are certainly not vicious, viscous means “deliberately cruel or violent, so either Chris does not know what vicious means or he thinks Momentum are cruel and violent, I don’t understand how they could in any be described as either. Bringing far left politics into power?, Momentum are strictly left wing, they go no further, there is no communism, did you think the labour manifesto was in any way communist or anarchist?

          I have said it before but the people who call Corbyn “far left” and Farage “far right” are two cheeks of the same misguided little arse, and clearly do not know politics, adding the “far” before left and right is just a tool to try delegitimize the debate or argument.

          “But Momentum are far more of a threat as they hide behind the t’internet, multiple profile names and have a bank of trigger phrases they keep firing out.”

          Again not true as momentum’s main tool is door knocking and public meetings, they use the internet like most of other groups, certainly don’t hide behind anything, multiple profile names? that’s just getting absurd now how would Chris know that? A bank of trigger phrases? again it’s just getting silly now. Chris said once that “chlorinated chicken” was a momentum trigger phrase, yes that’s right “chlorinated chicken” those words (because it’s not a phrase) have been used in political debate since the EU-US trade deal started negotiations, years before momentum existed.

          “And despite what you say they are indeed playing the ‘Fake News’ card for all they are worth.”

          If you have read above Daniele you can see why lots of people including Jewish groups who do not make the news are calling the Mail smear “fake news” It’s important to note that throwing the term “fake news” about while Trump is using it for absolutely everything is eventually going to devalue it so anyone who accuses a newspaper of lying (which they do frequently as we all know) can be accused of “oh they are using the fake news tactic” it’s all political smear and counter smear, it’s a nasty game.

          “either that of the Race Card to shut down any migration debate. Lammy and Abbott being the past masters at that”

          I actually agree with that not a lot i can say.

          “says all we need to know about this man who laid a bloody wreath at the graves of terrorists who murdered innocent athletes in Munich! And don’t even get me started on his love of the IRA. Or is this also ‘fake News’?”

          Again we are back into silly territory, as what Chris has done is taken what the Daily Mail, yes the Daily Mail (I know it is popular but surely not for it’s accuracy) as absolute gospel, Chris just blatantly lied as there is no Munich terrorists buried at Hamman Chatt, five are buried in Libya, two are in unkown graves and one is still alive.

          The IRA thing again there was talks between the highest levels of the British government and the IRA well before Corbyn, who only met Sinn Fein, the Queen laid a wreath at the monument of the IRA who were at the time in 1916 plastered as terrorists and killed many British soldiers. The problem with this is it’s a sensitive issue for some so it’s always going to sound bad. But the saying “love of the IRA” does not offer much in terms of the situation at the time and what Corbyn actually voted for and said at the time. I don’t think any person who campaigned and voted for peace and an end to the fighting should be vilified by the media for it.

          “Corbyn is a die hard far left ideologist. Always was and always will be. He frequently shows signs he actually dislikes this country and his best mat McDonnell has openly declared his Communist credentials. Labour as currently led is an existential threat to the security and economic wellbeing of this country if it ever got into power. As a democrat I am sad for that.”

          Again not far-left, I don’t know of anytime he “dislikes the country” No McDonnell has spoken for his like of Marxist economics. And to say Labour are a existential threat is just preposterous, it’s a five year term and the labour manifesto was largely agreed on by every survey, this is just doom mongering, it’s project fear. Some economists agreed with the Labour manifesto and said the policies were good.

          “Momentum is a very dangerous bunch and while I disagree with your politics I defend your right to express them as you please. But I will never defend this bunch of lunatic thugs’ rights to do what they are doing”

          I think i have answered that already.

          Daniele, I have lots of right-wing views, with politics i choose what is best for my family, I’m 28 from the North West with two young daughters and partner in the NHS, who has not had a real pay rise in five years of being there, I have to work a 50hr a week contract as a security guard on barely above the minimum wage while studying at home at the OU just to try make it in life and go on a holiday once a year, that’s when people ask “how can anyone vote labour with Corbyn, Abbot and McDonnell” it’s because i want a higher minimum wage, I want my partner to get a pay rise, and I don’t want more cuts to things like free childcare (who we have just had to take both our kids out of two days a week because it is unaffordable) My dads Scottish and my mums from Yorkshire, so surely you can see that Mr blobby could be in charge of the labour party and they would still get my vote, i begrudgingly voted for Blair and Brown even though I hated the pair of them.

          But then throw in this, as someone who studies history and reads about all kinds of politics I actually agree with Nationalisation of public services, especially the railways, it works for Germany etc, all of the most successful rail systems in Europe are public owned, sold the royal mail for a few billion and the day after it was worth five billion or something, it was always making a profit so why sell it. Water? should be nationalized, running clean water is surely a public service, and the general public agree with that in every survey asking about nationalisation .

          So i agree with Corbyn on most of his politics, i disagree with him on trident and foreign policy, I have said before he is not going to be particularly good for the military, certainly no growth i feel, but again cutting peoples jobs goes against everything he stands for and he (and his team) know national security is his weak point so I don’t think there would be any cuts, I have certainly wrote to him and and my MP and brought that up.

          I don’t have any time for Abbot or Lammy to be fair, and i have only been to a few momentum meetings, both were in a pub so it was just a few pints and games if pool and discussions really, and a I have talked to a few people about Abbot and Lammy and they think the same.

          Being a labour & momentum member does not mean I have to defend anybody if I don’t agree with them myself, that is there view and they are entitled to it.

          And I actually disagree with some Momentum stuff, some videos i get sent i think are a bit silly and I don’t like the way they have handled some situations.

          The only reason I joined and pay for membership is because I genuinely agree and is passionate about engaging the youth in politics, they did so much work for the labour party at the last general election, everywhere they targeted either won a seat or increased the vote share, they arranged transport for young lads who could not be arsed walking to the voting booth, I think that’s great. I did door knocking myself, you know how many 18/19 year olds just don’t give a shit, they shrugged their shoulders could not be bothered to vote and then when you show them the paper that says £10 minimum wage etc they get a bit more bothered, and I hope they took the time to vote.

          And that Daniele is why momentum gets vilified by the right wing press, they are seen as a threat, i mean we are hardly going to see pro momentum articles in the Sun or Mail are we, they are conservative supporting papers so it’s to be expected, but if you think how after the election the conservatives main aim was to start a group modeled on momentum to engage the youth also? it was called activate and now its called young conservatives, and it does the exact same thing as momentum does.

          Anyway that is enough of this site for today at least absolutely cured with some of the nonsense that gets posted, some of the stuff today has been disturbing in particular. Have a good night.

          • (Chris H) solesurvivor – Right lets get a few thing done here;
            * I never abused you or called you a liar and yet you dish out the phrase easily when challenged. I never lied. An apology isn’t expected although some weeks ago you did do so and I accepted.

            * As it happens I do NOT read the fucking Daily Mail OK? But you’re labelling me as such proves my point because you do exactly what Momentum do – dish out derogatory labels to attack the person and deflect the challenge. PATHETIC! The Corbyn / wreath story is all over the media and not just the Mail.

            * Now dear old Jezzah was at the graves of Salah Khalaf, Hayel Abdel-Hamid, Fakhri al-Omari and Atef Bseiso, three of whom have been linked to Black September, the group behind the 1972 atrocity at the Munich Olympic Games. Your throwing in another name aand location was, again, a pathetic deflection. THE MAN SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE!

            I now can’t be arsed to deal with your aggressive attitude, abuse and failure to accept what is patently obvious to many people – especially mainstream Labour MPs – that Momentum is as I described. I note you failed to defend their attacks on the likes of Luciana Berger, Margaret Hodge and Frank field to name but three.

            In fact I am done with this whole fucking site …

          • Blimey I fell asleep reading that reply mate. I thought I could go on a bit.
            Keep the debate going chaps if for no other reason than we are all at least passionate about what we believe in.
            Cheers

          • “I never abused you or called you a liar and yet you dish out the phrase easily when challenged”

            I never said you did abuse me, I called you a liar because you lied calling me viscous and a lunatic thug.

            “As it happens I do NOT read the fucking Daily Mail OK”

            But the story originated from the Daily Mail so it is entirely reasonable to bring up the mail when discussing the issue that originated in that paper, ok you got it from somewhere else so what, it originated in the Daily mail so that is what it’s judged on.

            I am not deflecting anything certainly not a challenge, i have gone through every point you made and as usual you have not gone through hardly any reply to your points.

            “Now dear old Jezzah was at the graves of Salah Khalaf, Hayel Abdel-Hamid, Fakhri al-Omari and Atef Bseiso, three of whom have been linked to Black September”

            So now you admit that you lied in your original comment and he was not at the “graves of “munich terrorists”?

            He was at people who were “linked” to black september.

            Oh ok then so where is the front page splash on any UK politician who meets or has met Gerry adams? who was linked with the PIRA? What about the Queen laying a wreath to fallen IRA soldiers in the Irish war of independence (who at the time were called terrorists just as much as the IRA in the 80’s)

            Should they NOT HAVE BEEN THERE??

            Hamman Chatt is not “another location” it’s where he laid the wreath, it was a memorial organised by the Tunisian president and the wreath was laid to pay respects to the people who lost their lives in the 1985 bombing raid by Israel. It has been visited by many politicians and groups including “labour friends of Israel” who were there last year!

            So no pathetic deflection just facts here Chris.

            “especially mainstream Labour MPs – that Momentum is as I described.”

            Tell me where they have been described as viscous and lunatic thugs??

            “I note you failed to defend their attacks on the likes of Luciana Berger, Margaret Hodge and Frank field to name but three.”

            The abuse Berger recieved was horrible and certainly not done in my name, and certainly not momentum or Labours name. As far as i am aware it was random twitter users not momentum itself that has abused her.

            But I suppose you also condemn the abuse Anna Soubry received including death and rape threats for voting against the government. There has been investigations into conservative facebook pages to find loads of examples antisemitism, homophobia and racism. do i call every conservative supporter or the conservatives themselves racist? no of course I don’t because every party has their online nutcases.

            Margarate hodge is a labour friends of Israel stooge, she sat in a room when Chukka amunna was saying to a packed room that Labour should not take the full IHRA definition on antisemitism as it restricts criticism of Israel a few years ago, and when Corbyn makes that exact same decisions she calls him a racist.

            You do remember Shai Masot the Israeli embassy official filmed discussing with a conservative aid and a member of labour friends of Israel on how to “take down” two serving conservative MP’s last year? for daring to criticize Israel.

            Don’t think for one second the Israeli lobby does not have a hand in this antisemitism row and are certainly contributing to it. There is videos online and investigations including secret filming of labour friends of Israel talking to groups of people at conferences on how to bring up and accuse someone of antisemitism when people are defending Palestinians and criticizing Israel.

            Google ” al jazeera investigation into labour friends of israel” to see the evidence for yourself.

          • Sole, you obviously very passionate about Labour and dear old Jeremy. But your tending to use your own arguments against yourself.

            “adding the “far” before left and right is just a tool to try delegitimize the debate or argument.”

            Then you quote

            “And that Daniele is why momentum gets vilified by the right wing press,”

            Quite frankly both mainstream parties are unfit to run the country. There a major changes coming over the next few decades and neither party has the ability to prepare the country for the challenges ahead. We need a new party which is not tied to an ideology of the past. You have realise its a global economy you can get anything from anywhere and that’s only going to continue. Nationalisation and taxation will not make the UK competitive, likewise pure capitalism doesn’t provide the ideal backdrop to get the investment we need. I’ve worked overseas and can tell you there are governments actively promoting and investing to take work from the UK and other developed countries. I won’t take much to tip the balance.

            My personal opinion is a Labour government will provide some with short term gain. But we will plunge further into debt and ultimately recession, why because the few who will be targeted will leave the country, its already happening Jim Ratcliffe is off others will follow but of course we don’t need these people to pay tax and VAT.

            This not news just my opinion.

            Why does it matter because defence, as we’ve seen will be the first to suffer. Its easiest place to justify cuts. You can still claim 2% of GDP but if your GDP is less then defence gets less cash = cuts. Your still meeting your election promise.

        • Expat

          You have copy and pasted what I said so you must of read it twice surely.

          “adding the “far”

          Then i said

          “by the right wing press”

          For your point to make sense I would of had to added “far” before right wing, which I never. Come on mate.

          I don’t think they have ideologies of the past, both are moving towards new Keynesian economics which should limit a fallout in a financial crisis.

          Both have different policies in growing the economy.

          “Nationalisation and taxation will not make the UK competitive”

          Labour are proposing Nationalising services which are Nationalised in other countries, Paris and Berlin have just bought back water after they sold it off. Some Nationalisation works for some services. Certainly not nationalise everything but vital public services, a lot of our economic growth comes from consumer spending, so getting the bills down so people can spend more of their disposable income makes sense, it’s about balance.

          The UK has some of the lowest taxes in Europe, especially corporation tax which is going down to 17% in 2020, why haven’t Germany’s or France’s company’s left then when they pay over 30% in each?

          It’s about finding a right balance for continued strong economic growth and balancing the economy away from services and increasing productivity.

          • Nationalisation on its own won’t work as there’s nothing to drive efficiency (productivity). Let take the trains as an example. We need driverless trains (Singapore Dubai etc have them) Labour not only want to keep the driver but add more guards, that’s not productivity improvement as now we have more people doing a job where with investment we could have none. Its not about Labour, Tories don’t have cooking clue either just leave it to the free market, well that’s not working either.

            Holding up other countries as examples of Nationalisation doesn’t mean its right. I’m not against nationalisation but I want cast iron guarantees I’m getting those services delivered as efficiently as possible. Once nationalised we’ll end up with more sacred cows like the NHS, and defence will of course suffer.

            UK should have the lowest taxes, it should attract as many foreign businesses as possible not drive them away. More companies paying less tax so more employed offsetting the rise in automation that’s coming. I’ll go further we should be incentivising companies who want to set up automated businesses here, its coming weather we like it or not. May as well lead it and take as much of it as we can.

            UK has lower productivity than Germany around 30% on average this more than offsets the higher taxes. Frances unemployment is higher than the UK and they have seen a exodus of companies, Goodyear and ArcelorMittal were a couple of high profile cases. There certainly not a queue of companies wanting to set up businesses in France.

            So in my opinion Labour and the Tories are no longer fit to run the country they lack the vision.

      • (Chris H) Solesurvivor – No i won’t ‘leave it’. You have made some pretty forthright statements on this Thread and I have a right to put forward my rebuttals. if you are a member of Momentum then you are judged by the company you keep. Please therefore justify the deliberate and virulent antisemitic abuse hurled at excellent MPS like Luciana Berger and Margaret Hodge and while you are at it defend the abuse hurled at the excellent Frank Field. A man who voted as his constituents and his lifelong politics told him to.

        And please justify why Corbyn himself has used the ‘Nazi’ term to describe Israel itself? I am a fierce critic of Israel’s policies in Gaza and the West Bank (they are committing war crimes, ethnic cleansing and genocide to be blunt) and I despise Netenyahu’s arrogance and dismissal of normal behaviour but the use of the word Nazi defeats the value of the argument against them. That Corbyn was anywhere near that wreath laying in 2014 was a huge error. That he then gilded that lily by writing in the Morning Star and now peddling the ‘fake news’ line shows his lack of judgment and propensity to obfuscate, lie and dissemble. Not my idea of a PM in waiting.

        Apparently when ‘Jezzah’ was habitually voting against his own party that was just fine. But when others vote against him they are fair game for the most vicious and sordid abuse you will ever see. Personal abuse has no place in politics but Momentum has turned that concept on its head. Sadly judging by your comments to Lee you have also picked up the Momentum way of carrying on debate. You are actually better than that. Argue the politics never attack the person because when you do you have lost the argument.

        • Chris is it Labour members who have been expelled or disciplined for antisemitism, I cant find anywhere a momentum member being accused of antisemitism, the momentum founder has even received antisemitic abuse.

          You say viscous and lunatic thugs then fail to back that up.

          I said leave it not because of any of you “rebuttals” it was because you called me viscous and a lunatic thug, where is your evidence of that behavior?

          And please stop using twitter abuse of MP’s as an example, tory MP’s get loads of abuse also, death and rape threats, so does that make all conservative supporters viscous and lunatic thugs, talk about tarring everyone with the same brush.

          “Apparently when ‘Jezzah’ was habitually voting against his own party that was just fine. But when others vote against him they are fair game for the most vicious and sordid abuse you will ever see”

          Again what do you think of the abuse the tory MP’s got for voting against their own party? does that make every conservative group viscous? do they have no place in politics?

          “Sadly judging by your comments to Lee you have also picked up the Momentum way of carrying on debate”

          Lee has shown zero respect to me and comparing me to the Hitler youth is an insult, i’m not one for turning the other cheek so i will not apologize for anything said to Lee, if you can see he has still not responded to any of my questions (again)

          “Argue the politics never attack the person because when you do you have lost the argument.”

          The irony of that after what you and Lee have said is beyond parody. Where on earth is the argument on labours policy? there is only two people who have actually had the decency to discuss actual policy and it’s me and Daniele.

        • As a German, and well versed in this continent’s “problematic” (euphemism) history, I’ve now lived in the UK for more than 8 years and watched the changing political landscape with great alarm. I’m also a Brexit supporter – which you may consider as ironic but the principle that I stand up for what is right is more important to me than any impact it may have on my family – because I’ve observed the anti-democratic forces at work in the EU first hand since they bullied the Irish to overturn a referendum result (I lived there in the early 2000’s for a few years). I really hope the British people don’t allow themselves to be bullied in the same way.

          That being my introduction to this discussion, I have to agree with anyone who calls out Corbyn and his foot soldiers (disguised as pacifists, but betrayed by their actions) – their tactics are no different from Nazi or Communist tactics to suppress all dissent and twist facts to suit their agenda, much like Trump. For all May’s weaknesses, she at least allows different views to be held and expressed and is prepared to debate their merits. Corbyn quote frankly scares me because he is a wolf in sheep’s clothing and so few Labour supporters seem to realise this. I know some Lib Dem supporters who were foolish enough to vote for him “tactically”. From the frying pan into the fire AFAIK

          Getting back to the topic of national defense, Corbyn would do just as other posters wiser than I have pointed out – keep the unions happy but decimate any real deterrent in our defense capability, which is a terrible mistake considering the times we live in. I’d also like to see more done for social welfare but I’m not falling for Corbyn’s smooth talking. Sadly I can’t vote to register my dissent, but I hope you all do and that common sense prevails. A new centrist party is indeed what we need, but will enough people shift their historic allegiances?

  10. The biggest problem for Labour and momentum is that a large part of the electorate see Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell as unelectable. Until that changes then they will not be voted in with a majority and more than likely will be second to the Tories. Abbott in particular is a liability and should have been sidelined long ago.

    Personally I would like to see a new party formed. Elements of both main parties must feel alienated by their shifts to the right and left, leaving the centre as fertile ground.

    • Agree, we need a new party. There are 3 types of voters in the UK 2 of them will always vote and defend their party irrespective of what the party would do to the UK. They will never vote for the other part irrespective of any good that party could do. The type is willing to listen and make an decision based on the arguments presented.

      Its import for defence because we need to prosper so we can afford to defend ourselves should the time come. We need defence spending on high tech industries that allow us to create commercial spin offs that bring profit back to the UK.

      What we don’t need to 2 political parties deeply entrenched in the past with ideologies that are not working.

      I voted Labour but the current leadership will destroy the UK and defence in its current form and if they don’t they will leave so much debt that the following government will have no choice but to cut defence. I fear the return of the fast jet to our carriers may be short lived.

      • (Chris H) expat – You are right of course. But what you described as ‘third’ are actually the usual floating voter. The ones who are indeed influenced and will change or abstain. Not sure that is any basis for a Centre Party though ..

        • Chris, there’s far more in this central ground than before as the ground has widened. There’s enough to make difference.

  11. Main problem we have is that if that carrier sorties it has effectively the entire surface fleet with it. Theres nothing spare for any other task…. And that tomahawk strike on the Syrian airbase was extremely disappointing.. A lot of missiles either got lost, or were shot down – both very worrying..
    Perhaps we should develop some drones for the carriers, at least in the interim?

  12. Lee1 and solesurvivor. Just get a room you couple of jerks or better still your own site so you can just bitch at each other. Politics and the military. Discuss! Whatever next? Grow up!

  13. Interesting article on superb new ships and aircraft and how they work together. Then the comments section descends into slanging match about politics and accusations of behaving like Nazis. What is it about the internet that makes that happen?!

  14. Ukdj, can we add some threads to this forum so the people here can have their arguments outside of the stories?

    Its decending into a farce, i just want to hear the news and some informed opinion it

  15. Wow, i do like to read the comments here, but solesurvivor you totaly overreacted on this one, swearing and gobbing off. “You should learn some f**king respect”, bloody hell who the do you think you are? Not a good example of the contributions on here of you lefties is it pal? While i dont think politics should be much of a discussion point on here, obviously politics has an impact on defence. However Lee has a right to comment and you have a right to reply, however your intial replies do show a level of nastinees, which does seem to be endemic in the left. However it does seem, by your further reponses that you realised you had gobbed off and overstepped the mark, and you did what lefties normaly do, step back, change the subject and pretend to be more reasonable. Oh by the way, im a Labour supporter, one who has spent 27 years of his bloody life defending the opinions of peole like Lee, and i suppose, even your right to spout crap. So i await your measuered? mature? constructive reply.

  16. Jesus.

    How the hell did an article on the QEC F35B landing technique descend into political infighting?

    I rely on you guys, for your technical knowledge, your understanding of combat and operational difficulties.

    Is Labour going to be the strongest supporter of the armed forces? Probably not. They were bloody good on Education, the NHS and social stuff though.

    They did, however, conceive the QEC, T45 and T26.

    Are the Tories the prime defender of the armed forces? No, their record is actually pretty poor – although I do think Williamson is heading in the right direction (Gove, Johnson, Mogg, Cash & Bone can go f**k themselves – they are clueless. Williamson, for all the appearance of a t**t, may actually be worthwhile).

    You lot, as an intelligent defence community, are excellent. Your knowledge is priceless. PLEASE stick to that.

  17. If you want to know why Lee isn’t so wide of the mark; who said this?

    ‘Capitalism has learned nothing from recent events and wants to learn nothing, because it places its own interests ahead of those of the other millions. Can one blame those millions for standing up for their own interests, and only for those interests? Can one blame them for striving to forge an international community whose purpose is the struggle against corrupt capitalism?’

    Joseph Goebbels

    Sorry to break it to you but those that believe the Socialism in National Socialism wasn’t Socialism do not understand their history – at all. There are pages and pages of historical attributable records like this. I have read many of them, listened to many of the filmed speeches in 20s and 30s to the same message – not the post war narrative where Nazi Socialism conveniently became known as Fascism.

    I have no time for either party at the moment so don’t be coming back at me as a Tory boy. Clowns the pair of em, May & Corbyn, but yeah, Nazis where definitely, unequivocally Socialists in 20s & 30s.

    • The Nazis called themselves the ‘National Socialists’, and they even nicked some (incredibly benign) socialist policies, however the name is inaccurate, a bit like the world series or North Korea being called the “Democratic People’s Republic of Korea” The Nazis were fascists. Indisputably. They drew their ideology from Italy’s fascists. Mussolini gave us the first fascist platform – racial superiority, rearmament & expansion, and consolidation of capital. The Italian Fascists used Roman imagery, such as the ‘fasces’, to evoke renewed national pride & a sense of superiority. The wanted to expand & reclaim historically Italian lands (mirroring a large portion of the old Roman Empire).

      They used some socialist economic policies (public works & spending), then the fascist government formed corporate cartels (the complete opposite to socialism)

      Seeing this success in socialist policies winning the vote of the people Hitler changed the name of his Deutcher Arbeiter Partei (DAP) to the NSDAP (adding National socialist).

      Then they mirrored the Italian fascist governments exact policies, starting with calling themselves socialists and using socialist policies like public spending, then of course racial superiority, rearmament & expansion, and consolidation of capital (none are classed as socialism) again massive cartels like KRUP made millions, loads of Germany’s companies employed tens of thousands of slave labourers, how is that socialism?

      You know the Nordic model, which has socialist policies such as welfare and large trade unions, they are not classed as fascist are they? so how on earth can you call the NAZI party socialist when all socialist parties in Europe has most of the opposite policies.

      NAZISM is a far right, fascist ideology, the only reason you have heard otherwise is because there is a campaign by some on the American right to try call the NAZIS “left wing socialists” because they don’t want to be held on the same political spectrum as the NAZIS.

      And it also comes from some who are taking the ramblings of Goebbels and Hitler calling themselves socialists when they were trying to make it into politics, at the time there was a wave of anti capitalist feeling in Europe after the great depression.

      Please stop rewriting history.

  18. Can we stop now, I can do a bit of OT with the best of them, but you have buggered this thread.

    Chris, Sole, Lee…….you’ve got different views, that’s fine, debate a bit on the impact of the right and left on defence spending and priorities but please don’t fight and insult each other or spam your arguments on a public site we all use, this thread feels like an ED on a Saturday night……….

  19. Agreed, cease fire, cease fire! Entrenched views that will never be reconciled in a 1000 years of tinterweb debate.

    Perhaps we could all agree that all politians are self serving egosentric narcissists ….. And generally terrible people…

    Now back to SRVL

    • Hold on there John, I’ve been a “local” politician myself and I did it for the same reason I picked my career, as a way to serve the greater good.

      I Would not have half as much PTSD and made twice the money if I’d gone down the self serving rout in my younger days.

      Blimey now I think about it what a mug I’m I (well a smug, feel good about myself Mug).

  20. Christ…that went downhill fast.

    I come on here (admittedly so far as a lurker rather than a poster) to read the well-informed opinions on the stories covered. I’d seriously suggest posters keep the political car crash discussion for another site, unless it’s directly relevant to the actual story.

LEAVE A REPLY

Please enter your comment!
Please enter your name here