Turkish military pension fund to buy British Steel

Intelligent counter argument?

I think Ds was being sarcastic.

Thanks Dave, that’s why I put a question mark at the end. Sometimes, it is difficult to tell, especially when your views are in a minority and you are expecting to be attacked

Yes I know what you mean.

I am just using his language back at him.

We had a legitimate referendum. Democracy said leave. That’s democracy but a minority want to subvert that. If we are here now it’s because Labour and LDs refused several time to support the WA in petliament. They are just posturing for their self serving ends.

If a political party wants to stand in a general election and say they will put us back into the EU… That’s proper democracy. You just go ahead and campaign for that and good luck to you.

But don’t go trying to subvert democracy (behind smoke filled rooms and behind peoples backs) and crassly spew out invective insulting the majority in their millions.

The whole reason for asking for a second referendum is to ensure democracy!

You are the funniest man since Charlie Chaplin slipped on a banana skin.
Why stop at 2 referendums. All you want to do is spit in the eye of the public.

I respected your argument until your second referedum democracy comment and attempting to smear leave supporters as Nazis. Ignoring your child like understanding of politics, I.e. everyone who I don’t like is a fascist, demanding repeat votes until you get the deal that you want isn’t democratic at all. Especially when the vote is slanted because parliment deliberately made our position undeniable by agreeing to vassal state terms with the EU, thereby forcing people to vote remain in a second referendum.

But ignoring that, presumably in the case that remain won, you’d be perfectly happy for leave to then demand and get a third referendum? And so on and so forth? Correct?

Spot on.

H wrote:
The whole reason for asking for a second referendum is to ensure democracy!

Using that same argument can I demand that Huddesfield Town be reinstated into the Premier Div. And can I claim offence as been known as Hudds Nil, really hurts my feelings

Come on Farouk even Kim jong whatever wouldn’t stoop that low as to square away Huddersfield Town! Nope let’s just keep going for as many referendums as we canuntil us peasants eventually vote the way we are expected to, supported by those remainer “useful idiots”! Is it me or is it the wealthier you are the more likely you lean to the remain side?

Reform? They’ve resisted reform for many decades & only want ever closer union. Reforming the EU is pie in the sky wishful thinking or a smokescreen under which to march on with the ever closer union/subjection bandwaggon.

I agree that Bollocks to Brexit is a little silly…however, it is better than ‘Seig Heil’.

@ Herodatus – I am not sure if you are just some annoying little Troll or someone who likes to insult people with extremist language to trigger a reaction (oh wait thats the same thing. My bad …)

The inference of me being a Nazi by you once again is noted. But this time take a very royal ‘FUCK YOU’ from someone who is possibly far more aware of what the Nazis did to Jews, Gays, disabled, Gypsies and many others which included his wider family than some jumped up little Remaintard like you can possibly realise. If throwing ‘Seig Heils’ about is all you have we should not be too surprised you are indeed a Remaintard…

Of course the issues being discussed mean nothing to you and are just vehicles for you to peddle your vicious and inane abuse….. I hope the owners of this site are taking note.

I’m sure they are Chris and I am sure that they have noticed where the abuse is coming from. I have never accused you of being a Nazi. Your posts are full of hatred, insulting language and bile. When it comes to abuse you take the biscuit (though CPW comes a close second). You appear not to be able to control your own emotions and, therefore, try to control other peoples’ behaviour. That is what infants do! Chris, if you voted in the 1975 referendum you must be, like me, of retirement age. Try acting as if you have understood anything about humanity in your time on this planet. In one of your posts you boast about your hatred of the EU and the SNP….people that hate are only half-alive.

@ Herodatus -“I have never accused you of being a Nazi”
You have done it 3 times in a few days. Only Nazis (for example) shouted ‘Seig Heil’ and that comment was made 4 hours ago.

Yes I do get annoyed when someone feels its OK to make subjective, crude and offensive comments about someone they have never met simply because they voted to leave the EU. I stand by my every word and will happily let other judge me as they will.

i will certainly not take lectures on how to live life from someone like you Old Son….

I didn’t say that you said Seig Heil…..read my post again. I said that Bollocks to Brexit was silly but better than saying Seig Heil…that is all. Funny how you are now claiming victim status when you have been the most insulting poster on UKDJ. Appeals to victimhood won’t wash now. Look at your posts….if you want to play the victim…I’m afraid you are too late!

Well said

Oh dear Herodotus you have stooped a bit to low and now seem to be less of an educated and informed person to a peddler of nonsense and stupid one liners, with throw away comments you expect to hear from losers and morons! When you have no other argument or comment it’s best to keep it down, not to become like a first year student at their first demo!

Exactly Julian thats my concern.

@ Julian1 – The only threat to the Union is the SNP. Brexit isn’t unless you are a Remainer prepared to peddle that lie.

And the inference our policies will be dictated by Trump and Bolton is farcical. Of course our policies are influenced by many factors and who our friends are but even I would not claim our foreign policy is ‘decided’ by the EU although we are obliged ‘to align’ our foreign policy with that of the EU. Sorry you didn’t know that?

Of course we are not allowed any trade policy while in the EU so that is pretty much killed let alone ‘decided’.

Why do you say that? It’s exactly how it is. It sounds to me like Brexiteers arrogance and complacency is the biggest threat. Brexit feeds the SNP narrative daily. But Brexiteers are myopic and only fixated on the vote and their majority wish. You are too far down the road to backtrack now and see any sense. It would be the end of the world for you were it not to happen….perhaps there is still a chance…

@ Julian1 – Sorry the SNP have been misrepresenting the UK and ‘feeding off’ other situations long before 2016 happened. And I guess it doesn’t cross your mind that the Remainer narrative of a 2nd vote to defy the first vote plays EXACTLY into the SNP’s hands as they wish to do exactly the same thing? So of course they will blame Brexit to encourage the Remain side. You are being played like the SNP always play off others. Wise up. The SNP are the Champion Blame Makers after all.

Just be told by the anti democratic EU and the Irish PM then?
But tell you what, just carry on anti American and live in your own happy daze. Me I am happy for the UK to have as much free trade with anyone, anyone who wants. But you know what I really think…? All that seems fair enough to me, unlike what’s seems to me the bigotry of others.

NOt anti American by any stretch, just anti the current incumbent and his henchmen and the way he has us over a barrel.

As for the Irish PM, that Office was almost irrelevant until the “backstop”. You can’t blame him for wanting to protect his own country and it’s us who’s elevated his profile and power!

You do realise that the EU is not anti-democratic? While Trump is doing his best to turn his supporters against the free press?

Also the US hates having trad deficits with anyone. Trump is doing his level best to renegotiate every single trade deal where a trade deficit exists. Guess who has a trade surplus with the US?

We will get hammered by the US in any trade deal. They know we are in a weak position, they know they are much bigger than us and they know that they will not accept anything that leads to them still being in deficit. Chlorinated chicken and expensive medicines here we come!

Oh that is if we get a trade deal at all with the US as if the Good Friday Agreement is altered (ie by a hard Irish Border) then there will be no trade deal… They have made that very clear.

Typical anti American attitude. We are not running away from anything… We are an important partner in NATO. Comments like yours just show you want to break up NATO.

No i like the yanks , im just not a fan boy, they have a long tradition of shafting us when it suits them. From suez to the SR-177 the whole show us your nuclear secrets then we wont show you ours. But dont let facts get in the way.

That’s the best line I’ve heard since Bruce Forsyth last played The London Palladium.

You need to get out more… Plus you need to learn more about the EU… The UK has consistently pushed back on any EU Army. It would have to have UK approval to be put into practice. Many EU practices and laws are UK lead. In fact most of the ones brexiteers seem to dislike…

I’d be quite happy for an EU army anyway – as long as it is correctly resourced, trained, operated and commanded – with the right political leadership. Why not – the EU has interests which don’t necessarily concern NATO so it makes sense. And yes, we could have been the driving power, after all its what we do well. Imagine, the EU army could have set up safe enclaves in N Africa or the Balkans to prevent the genocide and humanitarian disasters. Its a shame the success criteria are not there but its a good aspiration to have.

A Army led by EU bureaucrats couldn’t lead men into a Amsterdam whore house, much less a war. The institution of the Army requires much more than resources. It requires time, effort, discipline, esprit de corps, and patriotism.
The EU countries were the reason that BOTH North Africa and the Balkans turned into hell holes in the first place. Why would anyone trust them with a transnational Military?

I agree with you, but if the bloc is to be serious and develop, it has to be part of the plan. The biggest problem is very different cultures and capabilities of different armies…and many small armies with no obvious dominant power. I’d like to see them put their money where their mouth is and at least try.

Well put. They claim credit for the peace won by the WW2 allies & kept by Nato since.

Thanks Lee, that is the point, is it not?.I was going to say ‘because I don’t organise them’. Didn’t UKIP and Brexit also march in London. There were at least 10 people present. Brexit, laughably produced two teenage girls to march the last mile. Trying to deflect the image that most of their supporters were in sheltered accommodation. Tellingly, who was the star turn, yes, no other than Tommy Robinson. A fine example of the democracy that Chris is fighting for!

I would probably tone it down a bit now. I’m guilty of biting a bit, but we’re all here for defence not a re-run of the endless cacophony of back and forth crap slinging that is a Brexit twitter debate.

John Major achieved considerable success with opt outs. Cameron was a lousy politician. I agree, reform is difficult but not impossible.

So ‘opt outs’ is your idea of reform

No, not my idea of reform, but an indication that the EU is not an immovable mountain!

Never mind Herodotus, there are many on here who believe becoming a client state of the US is better than that of the EU. At least yo get to vote for your EU Parliament. When Trump says jump you ask “how high mr President?”

As i’ve said before, the notion of independence is rubbish, we will shortly just take our orders from elsewhere…

@ Julian1 – We vote for an EU Parliament that has no legislative powers. Brilliant idea that! Just remember where the power lies and that is with the EU Commission – the only body that can write, amend and repeal EU Laws, Directives and Regulations. And who elects them? Not me and you thats for sure. Was Van Der Leyen’s name on a ballot paper the other week> No it was not and she is now the most powerful person in the EU. The ability to even challenge these laws is denied to our own Parliament where EU Law goes direct to our Statute Book. And you seek to defend this as preferable to a Sovereign Parliament?

You seem happy to project your opinions as facts but I see no supporting evidence. So forgive me if I question why we would not be an independent State?

Well said

The Commission proposes legislation, it does not pass legislation. It is not directly voted for but nominees are put forward by each Government who are voted for. So if you do not like the nominee your Government has put forward then vote for a different party next time. The Proposed legislation is then put forward to the Council (The leaders of the member countries) and to Parliament (Those that are directly voted for) Either of these bodies can pass or reject the legislation.

Remember that you also do not get to elect a prime minister in the UK, they are put in there by the party. The Commission leader is done in much the same way, although more democratically as they are not just decided by one single political parties members…

So you are entirely wrong about not being able to challenge EU laws. Our PM can reject them at any point as can our elected MEPs.

The UK PM is (usually) an elected member of Parliament already. The Commission President is not.

The PM does not have to be an elected MP. There are no rule about that at all. The Commission President could indeed be an elected MEP. The point is that someone else elects them to be the leader. The someone else that elects them is elected by the public. It is not some masonic order…

However the UK PM is elected by people that pay to be members of a party. They are not elected by people that are in themselves elected.

Plus the Commission President does not have a huge amount of power at all. They are not the equivalent of a state leader. They are more like the Leader of the commons (ie look after processes etc). They pass no laws and have very little impact on anything.

@ Lee1 – let me quote from the EU Parliament website itself:
“The European Parliament may approve or reject a legislative proposal, or propose amendments to it. The Council is not legally obliged to take account of Parliament’s opinion but in line with the case-law of the Court of Justice, it must not take a decision without having received it.”
So as Juncker once commented ‘if its yes we carry on and if its no we continue’. The EU Parliament cannot of course repeal any EU Laws.

More importantly the UK Parliament itself can neither deny, amend or repeal EU legislation as it passes straight to the UK Statute Book. the European Communities Act 1972 refers. Thus proving we have laws made in a foreign land over which we have little or no control.

You are now being very selective about the UK and its PMs. Just because BoJo was elected as Leader and therefore became PM does not show how we mostly (by a big margin) produce our PMs. Firstly the PM must be an elected MP (not what happens in the EU). He / she must then be elected Leader of their party and then they must lead that party in a GE and gain the most seats. Again this does not happen in the EU. S they 3 electoral barriers to cross while the likes of Juncker have none and no one in the UK ever got to vote for him, his party let alone his policies as he has no manifesto or party. Can you not see the democratic deficit? THAT is the key difference and trying to make parity is rather poor.

I really must disagree on the power of UK ministers to veto anything. I am also not wrong as you misunderstand what powers the EU Parliament actually has. And for the record we are talking what we would call Primary Legislation not procedural matters OK? The UK’s power in the Council declined to 8% of the vote. In 2014 it increased to 13% to reflect our population size vs EU. So do explain how even 13% can outvote anything? And then maybe understand how QMV works and why it was created. The UK veto is very limited and mostly needs 3 other countries to agree to block any law proposal.

I said we could vote in euro elections and you agreed? What’s factually incorrect with that. Yes the various EU offices are different and as you say, not for the likes of you and I. Our leaders though,IF WE PARTICIPATE, do influence the selection of these candidates. Either way, it’s better than our influence over the choice of US office.
Now, I clearly don’t have the time you have to write long researched responses since I work and commute (when I read this), but that doesn’t mean to say that your responses are holier than thou since you have your friend google close at hand I suspect. Some of your figures and proofs are incorrect as you rely so much on media sources rather than real experience…..I gather you are retired so probably out of it a bit?

@ Julian1 – We agree we vote in EU Elections. But that does not address the democratic deficit that that parliament has no power to legislate. That power rests in unelected bureaucrats hands as exemplified by the recent appointment of Van der Leyen to succeed Juncker. My point was did we have any chance to vote for her? No. Point made.

As for influence what influence did our PM have on her appointment? None. point made again.

And then you drag in a ‘US office’ for some reason. Its irrelevant. But what is for sure the USA would not allow another country to write its laws, overrule its Supreme Court, have its flag under a blue one and sing another anthem. So why should we? And what the hell as all that shit got to do with trade? Its a political project to become a United States of Europe and the sooner you Remainers own up (or realise) the better. Sorry. No thanks.

And then like all Remainers you can’t resist the personally abusive pout downs and crap. Well whatever Pal. I can’t be arsed to give it the time of day.

did you know that the USA was once a collection of British, French and Spanish run colonies that came together? They all had their own laws and ways of doing things and yet they came together. That process only ended about 150 yrs ago. At some point, all those states made the decision to give up alot of local sovereignty to federal sovereignty. The East coast states did it in the late 18th century with the west coast and southern states joining later in the mid 19th century. so yes, those states did it! not identical set of circumstances…but similarities

@ Julian1 – I am well acquainted with the history of the USA but thanks for the reminders. Not sure the French were too involved in British America after they were defeated by the British in the Franco Indian War which had them packed off to what is now Quebec. Even Florida was given to the British by Spain after that war as they moved off to Cuba.

The war of Independence was a British Civil War fought on British territory where the French and Spanish assisted the rebels. So the USA came together in war surely? But I take your point about disparate interests coming together for their future benefit. It is what we did in 1972 by joining a trading group for our mutual benefit. It was an excellent idea and why I voted to remain in the EEC in 1975.

The difficulty for your thesis (if you are indeed drawing parallels with the EU) is that none of those colonies were sovereign nation states as the UK is. And you also miss the point that THIS nation state isn’t trying to join something – it has voted to leave it. So while I understand your point I fail to see its relevance to the EU / UK.

Julian1

The only French part of the United States was Louisiana beyond their use of the Civil Code their is no major difference as they were colonials also and therefore had the mentality.
As for the Spanish parts? The only significantly inhabited part was Texas the rest had their population simply overwhelmed. In Texas the result was their larger populationwas the forming of the Tejanos (meaning roughly Texas born Americanized Hispanics). Note this did not materially affect the imposition of Americans Law and the Constitution.
“That process only ended about 150 years ago.” No, it did not. Every one of the 50 States has their own laws and ways of doing things. They only have to comply with the Constitution of the United States as ratified on June 21, 1788 and it’s subsequent Amendments.
Also the Southern States joined at the same time as the Northern ones. Further not very identical to Europe as 99% of the population spoke American English, had just fought a war, and were threatened on all sides by European powers and aggressive natives.

Thanks for filling in the many gaps, i always find the history interesting when I visit a new state

“Further not very identical to Europe as 99% of the population spoke American English”

Nobody speaks “American English”

American English is not a language it’s a dialect, they spoke English, you speak English.

Oh, I’m afraid you’re very misinformed about EU law-making. The European Parliament plays a big role in law-making and, you know what, some MEPs come from the U.K. believe it or not. That said, I’m not sure how much UKIP MEPs contributed to law-making over the course of the last Parliament’s term. They could have spent their time and energy trying to improve draft legislation for both the U.K.’s benefit and the EU as a whole. Sadly I’m sceptical this was the case.

Yes, all those that wrap themselves in the flag and talk about democracy are going to have a rude awakening if a no-deal Brexit happens. As a teacher, I feel desperately sorry for the young people in this country. There is much more support for remaining in the EU by youngsters than older generations. It is their future that selfish old (semi-educated) fools are ruining. This is why there should be a second referendum….all those kids that were not 18 in 2016 are having their futures decided by people who will not be there to see the outcome. Some of the loudest voices, on this website, in support of a no-deal are people who, after a lifetime, should know better.
On reflection, I know the views on this website are not necessarily indicative of the nation overall but, just as at the start of WW2, we are seeing some very unpleasant creatures emerging from the woodwork! Depressing!

I think we should possibly keep to defence discussion. Many times now I’ve seen topics morphed into an anti-Brexit semi-rant by yourself.

Edit, posted incorrectly, meant in response to Herodotus.

Thanks Steve, appreciate your views but a rant is only a rant when you don’t agree with the views expressed!

See my reply above.

@ Herodatus – I share your concern for the younger generation if you are an example of the people who are teaching them. Do you really tell them all older folks must be Brexiteers, they are all therefore Nazis, they are all therefore selfish and they are all of course ‘semi-educated’? I suspect you do and you therefore distort their true vision of people who have done their bit, possibly served as I have, paid for their education, health care and welfare system through their decades of taxes and built the country in which they live? In many mature and advanced societies older people are held in high regard, consulted and their views respected precisely because they have earned the T Shirts and been round too many blocks. Here self righteous superior minded morons like you (supposedly better educated but evidently not) treat older people with abuse and derision simply because they hold a different PoV. What happened to teaching kids the ability to challenge and assess and see all points of view and view everyone with respect? Apparently that went down the toilet with the rest of quality education (that I had) when the Liberal sandal wearing Do Gooders and their revisionist crap was foisted on our youngsters.

You peddle the line ‘Its The Oldies Wot Dunnit’ and yet the basic numbers say differently. Even using the LibDems excessive 60% estimate given there were some 10.2 Mn OAPs in 2016 that means some 6.2 Mn possibly (repeat POSSIBLY) voted Leave. So do explain where the other 11.2 Mn Leave votes came from? For a supposedly educated person your mathematics (if nothing else) is pretty poor. But then its not about Maths is it or facts? Its about projecting a falsehood to support a lie.

Maybe if those youngsters had bothered to vote the outcome MAY have been different but then again in Psephology those who do not vote are deemed to be ‘happy to go with the majority’. Which was Leave so maybe they did actually have a say after all? Your point was again?

And then of course we get the REALLY nasty shit:
“I know the views on this website are not necessarily indicative of the nation overall but, just as at the start of WW2, we are seeing some very unpleasant creatures emerging from the woodwork! Depressing!”
So we get the Nazi link (of course), we get the statement that because some voted differently to you they are ‘unpleasant creatures’. So yes it is depressing that morons like you peddle this shit time after time after time. You throw labels because it suits your agenda while having no correlation to fact whatsoever. And the education of young people is in the hands of people like you? Depressing indeed…

Well Chris, you have just proved my point. When it comes to an argument, you can’t keep a civil tongue in your head. I would complain to George if I were you!

@ Herodatus – Oh I am sure George and everyone else will see your little trick for what it is. A nice deflection but a failed one. I responded in detail to each of your comments so if you don’t like the reply maybe stop making arsewipe comments.

Actually Chris, I hadn’t realised that you were a Brexiteer. In fact, I thought you were one of those ‘devious remainers’ (a term you like to use). A devious remainer that was trying to give Brexiteers a bad name by the excessive use of insulting language; which is why I played along with you on a previous post. Still, the objective was achieved…even if you didn’t mean it.

So what are you going to say when we decide to stay in the EU, and the eu decide their fed up with us and knowing we are week and desperate to stay, remove all are privileges, demand we use the euro. Then a new political party come to power, say lib dems who are voted in due to their home policys with little attention to their eu policys. They then surrender even more of are independence to the eu. Until one they the monicy no longer exists, great Britain no longer exists and all are proud military history is disloved and replaced with an EU pc army. What then? And what about all us brexiters who you mock as nazi but may unfortunately be drawn to such radical politics. Due to your soughts arrogancys, disrespect and disregard for are concerns?

Not at all Harry. I quite understand the position of those that want to leave the EU. I have never suggested that life for Britain within the EU is easy. There are many issues regarding the future direction of the EU that are problematic and need resolving. As I have said before, I believe that the best future for Britain is within the EU…at worst, a Norway style deal would be okay. But, for everyone’s sake we need to remain in a customs union. The last thing this country needs is Trump Dollar diplomacy….we would become a third rate state under a despicable charlatan.
As for accusing Brexiteers of being Nazis, I have said no such thing. Be careful of some of the commentators on this site…particularly Chris H who is an embittered old man that is intent on wrecking the future of young people in this country for the sake of his own personal grievances. Bitter, twisted and sour….don’t be drawn in by popularist cant!

“that selfish (semi educated) fool’s” i think where the words you used to describe us in one of your previous comments. Besides you still haven’t answered my question. Reform is all well and good but what heppens when its already to late to keep baleing out the sinking ship and the life boats already left.

Or better still your coment of “bolloks to brexit is better then seige hail” which certainly implies that those who disagree with your statement may have other beliefs.

Absolute chuff, you are showing how embarrassing and presumptuous you can be! Semi educated? How arrogant! A teacher? Wow yawn!

@ John – Well said. we must remember Juncker’s words during a referendum on the EU “If its yes we carry on. If its no we continue”

To us ‘reform’ means change and improvement but sadly to the EU the word ‘reform’ means more of the same. Any speech from Verhofstedt says so.

You can indeed reform it. Cameron did not try, he was technically threatening them not working with them. They also knew that the only reason he was asking for help was because he wanted to keep the Conservative party together. That is not a good position from which to reform anything… What he should have done genuinely talk to people about what is good for the EU not just or the UK Conservative party.

You are right Jonny…not all old people are leave voters…I am 65 and I know many others of my age that want to remain in the EU. The stats are that young people are much more positive about Europe than people of my generation. It’s more a question of proportions. I hope that you get to vote in a second referendum…our young people deserve to decide their future, whether that is remain or leave. It is your generation that is going to have to build that world!

@ jonny – 1. Please can you list with sources all the Russian interference that occurred in the 2016 referendum

2. You are right not all old people voted Leave. just as not all young voters voted Remain (you forgot that bit). But do you agree with the comments made that it was all the old people’s fault? And that anyone who voted Leave must be uneducated and possibly Nazis?

3. As someone who actively campaigned in Suffolk for Vote Leave and won a 60% leave vote and in doing so delivered thousands of leaflets, held dozens of street stalls and gave talks at various places I can assure you from what I saw, how I was questioned and the heated discussions everyone knew exactly what this issues were and why they were voting as they did. It is a bit of an insult to say ‘they didn’t know’ but then that fulfills the image of Leavers being less than intelligent and uneducated. And racists of course.

4. I always smile at the mention of the ‘Red Bus’. We all knew what the word ‘Lets’ means. If I said to you ‘Lets go down the pub’ is that a command or a directive or a promise? No. And neither was that comment on the bus. It seems only Remainers believed it meant anything else. And they are allegedly the educated ones. By the way the NHS will soon not be getting £350 Mn a week but £390 Mn.

5. You will not have to rebuild anything and nothing will be destroyed. I can say that having seen far worse in my lifetime. It was my my parents that started the rebuilding post WWII and my generation that continued the rebuilding. We have passed on a magnificent country for future generations like yours. Start believing in your own country, have pride in its achievements, its military its history and the gifts we have given the world. Think carefully before being seduced by a foreign power that doesn’t give a monkey’s about you. Would we, having done the hard graft then damage it? Sorry but it is Remainers who will create damage by destroying the UK as a nation state when it becomes a mere federal area on the map of the United States of Europe. Well sod that for a game of soldiers …

But Jonny, what you have to remember is that that federation will give you wonderful education, cultural, travel and life opportunities and all without any kind of visa or permissions. Those opportunities will be gone and you won’t get them anywhere else.

I know, my comment was in support of the E.U

@ Julian1 – That was almost perfect irony …
So no one was educated, there was no culture,no one travelled and there were zero opportunities before the EU were there? How on earth did we ever survive?
Except of course thats ‘bollocks’ to use a Libdem phrase or saying. Just on travel and working I was working in Germany aged 18 in 1965. I got a stamp in my passport and off I went. So why do we need Freedom of Movement and the EU? What the EU offers is not exclusive and its not free. Amazing that Rhodes Scholars were able to actually get into the UK before the EU as well don’t you think?
And if its so great why do UK consumers have to pay the EU External Tariff on all non EU goods the proceeds of which go straight to the EU not the UK treasury? On top of that we pay a large % of our VAT take and then £13 Bn a year on top? And for what? A £100 Bn a year trade deficit in Goods, the privilege of flying a blue flag and sing a foreign anthem and do things we did 50 years ago?
Wonderful.

Chris, do you have grandchildren? Have you heard of the Erasmus university program..did you go inter-railing?..freedom of movement, to work, to live…..open borders. Please don’t tell me these all existed in 1976? All the very things your movement hate. If we leave, those opportunity are gone. according to you it’s all upside leaving….dishonest or deluded to the core

@ Julian1 – Well once again we have the typical Remainer negatives and false projections.
Yes I have Grandchildren (3) and guess what both my kids voted Leave. So your point was exactly?

Yes I know what Erasmus is but I also know when I was at school and then in work we had kids from all over the world at universities up and down the land and we also (SURPRISE) had British kids studying abroad and not just in Europe.

No I didn’t ‘inter rail’ but before the Eu I did catch trains all over Europe. You may not know this but you go to a station and buy a ticket and the train turns up and off you go. And guess what? This last week its been agreed EU students and anyone else can buy tickets through EUrail (a Dutch company) and continue to travel here and Brits travel into the EU.

As I have shown we do not need ‘freedom of movement’ to travel and work anywhere we please so yes we did have all these abilities and feedoms in 1966 let alone 1976. Its just you are so wrapped up in your EU you cannot believe there was a way of life before. Pathetic! I have worked all over the world and it isn’t a big deal for non EU countries and shouldn’t be for EU countries post Brexit. Sometimes I wonder why you Remainers are so afraid of anything outside the EU. Freedom of Movement’ has meant wages being reduced, companies failing to invest in productivity and train OUR kids because they had an endless supply of cheap labour. Since 2016 we have seen wages rise and seen them outstrip inflation for some time. That isn’t a good thing? As for ‘Open Borders’ well if you think that is a good thing then you need to wise up and see what that means.

and then you have to project shit… No I and people like me do not hate those freedoms its just we had them before the EU 21 years ago and we will have them after in different forms. So they will not be ‘gone’ as they are not exclusive to being in the EU. American students travel all over the world, go to University here and their workers come here to work. Last I looked the USA is not in the EU….

No dishonesty let alone delusion at all. An accusation that is a bit rich from someone clearly deluded as to what the EU offers other countries do not have. No we Leavers just have an open positive mind and know that the EU is not ‘the only way’ and we can find better ways to develop our people and country. We are optimistic and hopeful. You Remainers appear to just project total negativity and defeat.

I have heard some chuff pro remain garbage before but Julian’s has to be the top one for now! What utter Lib Dem type over simplified verbal crap, which they specifically aim towards the young and inexperienced people who have yet to experience life or see the world past uni! Let’s hope julian works for the remain propaganda department as if that’s the best they can do, then thank you very much.

My God how did we ever travel in the past having to get a visa to Europe!!!!OMG the sky will fall in and nobody will ever travel again, having to get a damn visa! And we won’t ever get such opportunities anywhere else, wow I must have missed the fact the other 160 odd or so countries of the planet disappearing! Wow that as to be the weakest pro remain comment I have heard for quite some time. Federation, which one? are we in Star Trek now?

Good points. I’ll come back to Russian interference sources when I’m not using a phone. As for everything else yes obviously not all young voters voted remain, I’m not stupid. I don’t believe that is was ‘old people’s fault’. There were a number of factors, not least misleading lies on both sides as I’ve already said. And I never mentioned nazis… ‘do I think leave voters are all uneducated’-NO. But in my experience, admittedly I’m at school so I haven’t met a wide variety of people as you must have done as a campaigner, everyone I have met supporting leave has
a) quoted the same old rubbish ‘immigrants can piss off’ etc
b) not been able to back up their arguments whatsoever compared to remain supporters who can back up their arguments fairly well
Good job on your campaigning, but I said NEITHER side knew what they were voting for, generally, obviously there are exceptions. I, for example, am always up for a debate and if one side persuades me great, until I stumble upon contradicting facts from the other which is what kept happening at first.
-I never said leave voters were racists, stop putting words in my mouth
The big red bus thing- clearly some brexit voters did believe it literally or it wouldn’t have happened
I have pride in my country, it’s achievements, it’s influence on the world and all the rest of it- far more than anyone else I know. If we leave the E.U we will go from being ‘seduced’ by them to being seduced by the U.S who we are nothing to in trade terms. I really hope you’re right about the whole ‘magnificent country being passed down to future generations’- one thing I do like about brexiteers is their optimism.

@ jonny – That young man was an excellent response and a lesson in how to continue a discussion. Others may like to note. Well done you but grab a coffee …..

Now clearly we are never going to agree but I hope we can at least agree to disagree? Of course on the Remain side you also have those that make rather daft comments (as can be seen on this Thread) but I can assure you that most Leavers do not subscribe to the ‘Migrants can piss off’ theory. Yes some do but not all. UKIP didn’t and had very progressive policies on this and the Brexit Party has a very wide set of MEPs and candidates from all walks of life, ethnicities and sexual orientation. One MEP is Scottish, Gay and black! The concept of a points based migration policy came from the Leave side. We object to UNCONTROLLED immigration not immigration per se.

As for backing up arguments I would suggest we won that referendum because we offered positive arguments while Remain just projected negative campaigning against Leave. Cameron admits as much now. And you have seen examples of that continuing here. When challenged I have never ever had a straight reply to defend their PoV let alone the EU. They invariably go straight into attack mode which of course make me see red and I do the same. Its not good, I am not proud of it but I will stand my personal ground when insulted.

I did not say you called anyone a racist. I observed that the term is usually peddled by those who call us uneducated and say we didn’t know what we were voting for.

I was really pleased you were happy to mention your pride in your country. Thank you. All I ask is that you learn to challenge what you are told about all this (from both sides) and indeed learn to question (with respect) what others will tell you is fact on anything. Twitter is not a good reference point. Of course when Mum says clean your room asking ‘Why?’ maybe isn’t a good policy! But I hope you get my drift?

All I can add now is when I was not much older than you (18) I was working in Germany. I had friends who were Irish and lived and worked here because of the CTA (which we agreed with Eire in 1923). They even voted here. We had more laws on maternity leave, sickness benefits and other welfare let alone the unique and magnificent NHS than the EEC countries we joined and long before we joined the EEC let alone the EU. We wrote the text of the European Convention on Human Rights (in 1970 I believe) – nothing to do with the EU at all.

Contrary to what people have accused me of I do not hate Europeans or European countries. I love the differences, the cultures, the languages (I speak 3) and the histories. To me it is the Nation State that must be supreme so we preserve all that and make it better. Being subsumed into an amorphous conglomerate where individuals have no power, big business and vested interests hold sway and unelected people retain all the power is fundamentally wrong IMHO. We were told it was ‘just a trade deal’. It turned out to be something very different. Ask yourself why a ‘trade deal’ needs an anthem, a flag, a Parliament, a currency, a Central Bank, Presidents and laws made that transcend national legislatures. And then maybe ask a Remainer to justify it all. They can’t – trust me I have tried for nearly 20 years.

Again thank you for an excellent post…

Ok fair enough, all seem sensible reasons to leave the E.U. Just one thing though, won’t we go from being controlled by one big organisation to being dominated by the U.S (and it’s chlorinated chicken)? It sounds as if Boris Johnson is pally with Trump and trump will only do what’s good for his country, I doubt he really cares about ours. On the other side we are desperate for trade deals so we would take anything we can get. I’m guessing you don’t believe no deal will be as bad as remainers say, but surely there will be some economic loss that we wouldn’t have if we were in the E. U. I know we were doing fine before the E.U but in turns of the economy surely it only improved trade between us and Europe? Are there any economic benefits to leaving the E.U. or is it purely because we don’t want be part of a big conglomerate?

@ jonny – well regarding the USA can I just list some positives (IMHO)?
* We are the 5th largest economy
* The UK is the single biggest inward investor in the USA
* The USA is likewise the biggest investor into the UK
* The UK is the biggest foreign supplier to the US Military
* The USA is now our biggest export market @ $64 Bn vs Germany @ $47 Bn
* The UK itself is STILL receiving more foreign inward investment than the rest of the EU combined.

Here can I offer a friendly piece of advice? Throwing in phrases like ‘chlorinated chicken’ detracts from your excellent comment. Its nothing more than a trigger phrase used by desperate Remainers when they have nothing of substance left. Your EU salads are washed in chlorine, your drinking water is treated with chlorine and been to a swimming pool lately? Yep chlorine. And it wasn’t the USA that shipped horse meat to the UK labelled a beef. That was the EU. Lets keep it factual and lose the triggers?

So we have clout and we have what the USA wants and that is a big market very similar to theirs that they already understand, trade with openly and also invest in heavily. There is an historical connection but that means diddley in trade talks. The bottom line is we do very well with the USA (its almost balanced trade) under WTO Rules (yes those horrendous rules that will cause mayhem! Apparently) despite us having to charge EU External Tariff duties against every US import to the UK. Like 10% on US cars. In a free trade deal we can reduce or remove those which is another lever we can apply. It is a defeatist attitude to think we will somehow be sacrificed on the altar of US Incorporated when we are not obliged to sign anything and we carry on as we are and do better out of the USA in nett balance terms than we ever do out of trade with the EU (see below). But a trade deal if worked right can be a huge benefit to the UK. Yes they will makes sure they ask for what they want but then so will we. We are not ‘desperate’ we are pretty much equal partners if you look at real numbers. That counts in trade talks.

Some facts on our top trading partners – Nett (as of 2016):
EU Bloc: -£86.4 Bn (deficit)
Germany: -£30.5 Bn (deficit)
USA: +£10 Bn (surplus)
China: -£18 Bn (deficit)

Just a footnote: Remainers talk about the EU as if it was a country and group numbers together to make us look smaller hence the much used ‘UK is just 15% of EU exports’. That is a false statement. We trade with individuals, companies and agencies in many different countries and so its the COUNTRIES that are the markets NOT the EU which itself buys and sells nothing (although it is rather adept at taking our money). And in the EU we are the biggest single markets for German, Dutch and French products (for example). This total trade trade within the EU results in a £100 Bn a year deficit in Goods for the UK. So you’d think they would want to make sure our market is looked after? Apparently not.

To answer your last points: yes there will be economic disruption as we move out of a very closely regulated EU economy. No one denies that but even the very pro EU Bank of England it will be short term as businesses adjust and forecast improved growth thereafter. What is hurting now is the endless uncertainty. I worked in international logistics and uncertainty is the biggest issue for any business especially those working in long investment cycles.

The EU is a protectionist setup hence the Customs Union. This is now a failed concept and it is free trade that has brought far more benefits to most nations. Trump is playing the protectionist game and his country is now hurting. Point made. So outside the EU we can take advantage of far bigger markets than exist in the EU unfettered by EU regulations and constraints (like the External Tariff for one. The USA alone is a bigger market! This piece is very instructive and highlights how our leaving affects the EU as well as comparing USA and EU:

https://mgmresearch.com/us-vs-eu-a-gdp-comparison/

I have droned on long enough but your comments deserved a full response. I hope I answered well.

@Chris H …

“As for backing up arguments I would suggest we won that referendum because we offered positive arguments while Remain just projected negative campaigning against Leave.”

I agree, and as a Remainer that infuriates me (as in I’m angry at the Remain campaign not at Leave for doing a much better job). Even worse, as the campaign progressed and Remain’s negative messaging failed to gain traction, the response from the Remain camp was not to switch to positive messages but rather to make the negative messaging ever more shrill e.g. George Osborne’s statement towards the end of the campaign that if the vote was for leave he would have to have an almost immediate emergency budget to cut a further £15bn in spending (when already in the grips of austerity) plus £15bn in tax rises (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/osborne-predicts-30bn-hole-in-public-finance-if-uk-votes-to-leave-eu). Idiotic.

The other thing that bugs me is that Leave were allowed to occupy the high ground of patriotism and own the “stop talking our country down” riposte. I actually saw it the other way round. Why was the Leave campaign left unchallenged in, at least as I saw it, portraying the UK as the snivelling little kid being bullied by the big boys in the playground (the big boys being other EU countries with France and Germany usually cited as the biggest of the big boys)? I always saw the UK as one of the biggest and strongest big boys in that playground more than holding it’s own and with an excellent chance of cultivating more determined alliances with like-minded EU nations to effect reform from within and/or gaining more opt-outs so that we effectively did have our cake and eat it, i.e. all the benefits of the single market without having to participate in everything.

I confess that I have never been concerned about perceived issues of sovereignty, I derive my national identity mostly from being a citizen of a country that, although no longer a superpower, is still a very major economy able to afford significant infrastructure, defence, scientific innovation, global leadership in various industries such as finance and pharmaceuticals, etc. Maybe I’m a little shallow in basing my national self-worth largely on the strength of my country’s economy and all that brings with it in terms of being able to afford NHS improvements, increased defence spending, world-class universities etc. but that’s how it is and is possibly my biggest disconnect with many Leavers. I don’t need Manchester to be an independent country to feel like a Mancunian, I’m quite happy being a Manc within the UK.

I am now terrified that crashing out with no deal or with trading relationships significantly less close and friction-free than the EU single market provides will damage the UK’s economy. I worked in the supply-side of IT for my entire career for both hardware manufacturers and software companies and I saw many medium-sized UK companies attempt to gain a significant foothold in the USA and break themselves in the process whereas US companies pretty much took over the computing industry during my time in the field. I believe that one reason for that is that US startups have a sufficiently large home market such that they can establish economies of scale, put better back-office infrastructure in place and have a bigger balance sheet to fund expansion such that they have a much stronger foundation and are more resilient when they embark on significant overseas expansion. The EU single market affords at least somewhat of the same training ground for UK companies to hone their product and their procedures and strengthen their balance sheet in the early days compared to how much they could do in a much smaller UK-only market before having to contend with extra cost and complexity required to achieve significant expansion outside their home market.

Oh well, we are where we are and it’s nice to see some civilised debate amongst people who disagree so vehemently on the best way forward. Ultimately both Leave and Remain supporters are trying to justify their arguments based on their guesses about what will happen in the future, either to the UK economy after leaving or how the EU might evolve were the UK to stay in. In the absence of either party having a functioning crystal board it all ultimately comes down to conjecture. We’ll never actually know which party was correct since to know that for sure we’d have to fork off two parallel universes, one where we stayed and one where we left, and compare them at various points in the future to see which one left the UK in the healthier position (however each individual observer measured that). We can’t do that so I’m just a silent passenger along for the ride now. (Well, maybe not so silent given the diatribe I just spouted above but I’ll shut up now.)

@ Julian – Excellent, well thought out reply. Thank you. We are all passengers now by the way …

Mate what chuff. When “your generation” get in power what will you do? You will live off the backs of those who have gone before, as every generation does. And can I ask what does “ it says a lot about leave voters who believed the big red bus” mean? Do elaborate as to your perception of those people? Personal experiences through life lead people to have a thought process and a direction of thinking. Do not patronize people who have voted for something, for reasons personal to them, gained from experiences which you have yet to come across. Your post does sound very arrogant and patronizing, and a bit like a know it all spoilt kid who thinks they know best. Life can bite son; stand by.

@ herodatus – All you have left is a quibble over a missing word when the meaning is obvious and irrelevant to the main point. Pathetic. It was not ‘bullshit’ they were two independent respected sets of people assessing and interpreting how those results converted to Constituencies.

I didn’t need to Google anything unlike you. Some of us do our own research and I really do know what these people do. So here is the ‘Electoral Calculus’ Website. Read and learn if you have the attention span:
https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/homepage.html

Sadly you seem to have not fully read my post in your need to peddle crap. I wrote:
“For the avoidance of doubt I do not suggest this is how a GE would pan out but merely say these were the numbers on that day.”
So your haemorrhoids are safe. Mind they must suffer with your head up your arse all the time.

Great comedy, we’re at our comedy best when angry

Have to say you are getting worse and by this reply you are sounding rude, rattles presumptuous and a bit arrogant. Calm your pants pal as your ability to remain calm is seemingly limited.

Just call me Harrodutus Trevor!

Sole. I don’t have a lot of time to respond but I will respond on the original thread where this was raised.